I spent 7 years building 304 and 316 stainless tanks for agriculture. We pickled most of our welds but also used a surfox machine on heat tint from interior welds. Worked awesome! Pickling will discolour the material more but these machines will remove just the tint if you don’t go nuts with the machine. We found that the pickling was sufficient passivation. The crazy thing is stainless will “heal” itself eventually. It will develop a passive layer over time. Even rust spots will eventually eat themselves away. For ag use it’s amazing what stainless with hold up to!
@@lordbelvoir2543 Rust spots is normal on welded stainless, the iron separates on the surface of the melted metal so you get tiny spots of iron that is not chemically bonded with chrome. After it rusts and gets worn out of the structure it's completely fine as most of the steel is actually stainless. Low grade is the stuff that will easily rust "out of the box" in patches\strips (depending on how it was formed), THAT is low grade stainless.
@@mikeford963 that's just direct contamination, it'll form surface rust and inside the scratches the iron got shoved into during abrasion and then you'll be left with a slightly rusty looking stainless steel. Unless you somehow put a deep thin groove and filled it with iron the expansion when it oxidizes won't cause anything other than surface damage. Then again, many times stainless steel is used for its surface properties so that contamination is undesireable. So as was summed in the video, have separate abrasives for anything that can rust vs anything that won't.
Particularly if the service is the food or chemical industry. Those surface oxides can be very detrimental to the vessels contents or they can effect the actually weld performance in service.
I’m a machinist but not a welding expert by any means so I’m glad you mentioned sanitary applications. I didn’t even think of that although it would most likely be specified by the customer but also good for us to have the knowledge regardless
@@SolasChristusMinistry I worked in a shop where we built a stainless steel tank for a company that made gelatin products. The customer specified that they would be responsible for all on site cleaning prior to the unit being placed in service. Another part of their specifications was to do a dye penetrant test on the floor to shell weld. Sine the tank was to be painted on the outside, we applied the dye on the inside and the developer on the outside. This was because the dye is a bear to remove. We shipped the unit and about a month later we received a very angry phone call from the client. Seems that had not done the internal cleaning as they should nor did they have the Government inspectors in as they are supposed to by law on any foodstuff installation. Because they jumped the gun and cut corners to begin production, they now had 10,000 gallons of pink gelatin......... They also had their operating license revoked until every inch of their plant was inspected for other "cost cutting" methods.
If you conscientiously study chemistry at school, there will be no need to overpay for such a device and solutions in cute canisters with beautiful labels. Reagents cost mere pennies, and the power source can either be ordered on popular trading platforms, or even use a welding inverter at a minimum current. The active solution is just a 1.5% hydrochloric acid solution, and a baking soda solution can be used to neutralize it. And if you read a little special literature on electrochemistry, you can even make a solution to obtain a mirror surface.
Holy shit, I just looked up the price on that thing. Almost four THOUSAND dollars??? Insane. That's twice the price of my welder. I will definitely look into making my own instead. Mind boggling how people willingly pay companies that much for a plastic machine with very simple electronics in it.
Cheap Chinese/Amazon tig welder works great as the powersource. HCl (muriatic acid) can be bought at Lowe's/home Depot/Walmart. Highly recommend using gloves and eye protection when working with these chemicals.
just an fyi from a someone who did this for a living -- the used passivation fluid contains soluble chromium and is therefore a hazardous waste per US EPA. Depending on your voltages, it can make a bit of hexavalent chromium as well. Its copper and nickel content can ding you as well. But still profitable!
Worth mentioning that hydrofluoric acid will absorb in through your skin and attack your bones. Even a tiny drop on a finger, even if washed off immediately, can result in the loss of that finger, or your whole hand/wrist if you don't seek immediate treatment. It can also cause fatal cardiac issues. HF is the nastiest acid I know that's actually used for anything outside the laboratory. Edit for clarification: Hydrofluoric acid "pickling paste" was the *old way*. That's the justification for the expense of one of these electrochemical units. They may be a bit of an investment, but you can't put a price on health. The use of electricity allows for much milder solutions to be used, even non-toxic citric acid based solutions work with electrochemical cleaning. Also, not to be a grammar gestapo, but it's "passivate/passivated" not "pacify/pacified".
I got a large dollup in my right eye and had to go to the hospital but I did not lose the eye. Immediate milk and water saved it. It's now ten years later and the eye is working fine. This acid does not get in your bones or cut off your fingers if you get a drop on them. At least the acid they sell for pickling welds. Thanks.
Any tig welder that does stainless probably already knows this. Common practice. Most customers don't want a rainbow welds to begin with. Unfortunately almost everything I weld at work (Pharma Manufacturing) has to be passivated. I will admit it pains me to clean it up. I love the natural colors from tig welding stainless.
Wow I am amazed people don't want shiny welds. I don't really do stainless for work, but even the coupons I weld together for fun, I clean away the colors with a brush right away. I guess colors are not my thing!
Good piece of equipment.. Worked in a factory welding parts for Industrial incubators for the poultry industry, and they used a tig brush on all of our SS welds.
pickling gel works just as well and it's cheap. just wear some plastic gloves, faceshield / glasses. let it sit / soak for 30+ minutes and rinse of with water. i built a huge plastic container and just let it soak in there for a few hours to make sure it removes all the contaminated dust around me. i weld only 316L so I can't speak for 304 stainless.
pickling gel works wonders with both 304L and 316L, just dont let it be too cold when using it(takes forever for it to work). I make different constructions / machines for aquaculture.
we used this at work, everyone HATED pasavacation day. berating that vapor was brutal even just the smell was horrid. the acid ruins any clothing like battery acid. i made a trailing cup so i never had to use it and a wire brush (strictly ITAR controlled SS only brush) on what little did color. he used a dirty wheel intintionally because it works other wise. ive worked in aerospace on aircraft parts and all we used were wire brushes on ss and Inconel but went thru grate lengths with back purge and trailing cups so they wouldn't color if it could be helped
I am an advanced hobbyist, and I build motorcycle exhausts, and the occasional architectural railing in stainless. I looked into passivation quite a bit several years ago. The thing about the industrial passivation chemicals is that it contains a strong acid, and the smoke/steam/mist that comes off of it is somewhat dangerous - as you mentioned, it will rust *everything* in your shop without proper ventilation, and it's not at all good to breathe. I purchased some carbon brushes off Amazon, which I hold in a rod stinger from my TIG welder running ~25 amps AC, and use heated citric acid, which is basically the active ingredient in lemon juice. It takes longer, and makes a horrendous sticky mess, but it works. One thing I've found is that when you place and lift the brush, it needs to be quick, or you get arcing which can mark the material, and the arc eats up the brush.
there is a citric acid gel I used to passivate stainless. useful for passivating insides where you cannot easily reach. I just let it sit over night and it dries, than just wash down with soap and water. Non-toxic & no risk of a chemical burn.
This is how all the welds looked in all of the equipment when I spent a summer working at a salmon fishery in Alaska. Perfect and clean welds on stainless.
I used to build hollow metal doors and frames out of stainless and we always had to use that Heat Tint Remover (think some call it pickle paste but, the bottle says HTR and some number beside it) to take those colors out of the frame corners because in that particular case it looked terrible otherwise. However in some cases you want those colors to stand out as part of the appeal typically art pieces and such. But in most construction applications you want to remove that heat tint from the welds so it actually looks more uniform and better. It also protects the welds from corrosion and oxidation later on especially on something outside exposed to the elements. That paste also cant be left on stainless too long or it will destroy the nickel in the stainless and ruin the part. Only 10 minutes no more no less. I never see or did it but, I heard stories of a guy before me that put it on there and went to lunch and come back to a destroyed $1500 Frame. We never used that Electro Chemical Process but, it seems a lot better and definitely faster.
It usually doesn’t matter what the welder thinks, it’s what the contract calls for. Most jobs I do require pacification, some even spec a specific brand of electrochemical heat tint removal solution and neutralizer.
I built vitamin dehydrators out of 304 stainless steel never had a problem worked with it for years I can't entertain this video no longer thank you so much
Makes the weld uniformed when doing welds in food and Pharma industries!. The Tig Brush is the best bit of kit for cleaning welds in a engineering work shop, and saves so so much time!!!
We have a Tig Brush for cleaning tig welds, and it mostly works, but the connected parts break down quickly. The took ours in for a service, and didn't do anything with it, not even cleaned it on the outside. The original brushes are insainly expensive compared to other brands (like 25x more expensive).
For art work that you want to retain the color, a clear topcoat would probably help a lot. I would have liked to seen you use the TIG brush on the back side of those stainless test pieces. I suspect there is a lot more oxidation on the backsides unless you had a applied a gas shield.
the coloration is due to a layer of oxide so since there is already an oxide layer to get started it rusts. the stainless when clean has a resistance to letting it get a foot hold at room temperatures in order for it to start rusting it would need to be heated or exposed to corrosive substances...
To bad you did not include pickling paste in your test because it works fine and is a cheap and simple alternative to buying an expensive piece of machinery.
@Trent Rayment I am in the netherlands and can tell you it is allowed in all europe as it is not carcinogen, europe having the most strict health and enviromental laws of the world. its a mixture of nitric acid and hydrofluoric acid, yes it can be dangerous if used without regards for safety but it is not carcinogen. Its R-phrases are R-23-24-25-35 meaning toxic and risk of burns but nothing more, the toxicity goes away with dilution, if you wash it of with plenty of water it looses its toxicity quickly to the level off ordinary household chemicals like bleach and toilet cleaner If you use adequate safety gear (gloves, face shield and an apron) there is no problem using it.
@Stephen Keebler yes, that is what the R-phrase R-35 mean (duh), the R-23-24-25 means its toxic, It is meant only for professional use, if you are a professional you should know how to interpret a warning label on a professional product, if you are not a professional and dont know how to read a warning label dont mess around with stuff you dont understand, get help from someone who does know or get an education. Did you know you can get a nice life threatening death shock from a welder if you are outside in the rain? , 48 volt can kill you. And if you stick a screwdriver in your side pocket and fall it may kill you. Metal working can be dangerous. Always remember when you are hobbying: Darwin is always checking on you.
Most pickling solutions I came across are using hydroCHLORIC acid as an ingredient - only titanium requires HF = hydroFLOURIC acid or HF-based salts. HF is something you do NOT want in your house. I have radioactive stuff in my garage, as well as arsenic, cyanide and mercury compounds... but I would never ever store HF on my property.
There is Hydrofluoric acid in many pickling pastes and while it's strong, it's relatively safe in this form. Getting some on your skin will feel irritated after a few minutes, rinse off with water. It might cause light discoloration of skin.
With hydrofluoric acid its not the acid part that really matters, it is the fluorine/ide/ic part that does, as it will get into your body, leech out the calcium out of your bones and cause nerve damage due to the calcium fluoride, as well as heart attacks.
@@Bob_Adkins Its no0t the acid part(the hydrogen is a proton which is what usually causes the damage with acids). It is the fact that it is fluoride in high concentration.
Did you ever have any issues with rust? I am doing something similar to your rails and that is my only concern with whether or not to get one of these fancy machines.
I worked for... well, Probably the first Commercial Fryer company, that comes to your mind. I can concur, all welds on the inside of any of our foodservice equipment had to be acid washed. Also, sleeves, eye, and respiratory protection, highly recommended.
This is effectively an electro-etching process. Done long enough with enough current density and it would actually pit the material. As such, you could theoretically DIY this machine with a DC power supply of some sort and an electrolyte
Did this at my previous job, it's definitely a neat process but it absolutely sucks to do for hours on end when you're cleaning complex parts, especially with all the safety equipment I had to wear.
@@chrisp9046 Safety glasses, chemical resistant long gloves, and a filtered respirator (like the ones you would find in a paint shop) due to the fumes.
@@H2Oslicer123 Ahh. And do you do this for an extended period of time? I’m thinking I ought to use more/better ppe when I do this at work, even if it’s occasional.
That pink liquid looks literally like industry standard hydrofluoric acid used for aluminum wheel cleaner. The clear stuff is probably propylene glycol mixed with sodium hydroxide and alcohol to dilute the sodium hydroxide. Pretty common base used to neutralize acids, it's also what's in dawn dish soap.
The chemical from surfox actually adds back chromium to the surface as it cleans the oxide tint layer off. If you use a wire brush on polished material God bless your soul trying to brush in the grain direction on a filet weld.
He'll yah I've done passivation on stainless pharmaceutical 316. With citric acid but I don't know if they applied a voltage to the solution. Do you know the difference, if any?
Yes, it's "passivate" not "pacify." Removing free iron from the surface and letting a chrome oxide layer form on the surface of stainless, which stops further corrosion. Nitric acid has traditionally been used, and less hazardous than hydroflouric. For most of us it's even better to use citric acid (there are commercial formulas), getting the weld and HAZ wet with a brush or cotton swab. Wait a minute or two, then rinse. Inexpensive, almost no hazard. Let's not make this more complicated, expensive, or hazardous than it needs to be!
just hit it with a stainless brush while its still hot,that roloc is just knocking down the weld profile and youll never get all the oxidation out unless you blend the whole weld down.3m makes blue scotch brite wheels not pads that will take the color out without blending the weld,you can soften them up with a ball pein to break down some of the epoxy and resin structures to really get in tight spots
I have one of these machines and the surface after laser cleaning is not similar to the surrounding metal. Cosmetically. OK for industry, not for appearance sake. Good comment.
I am curious how different the output of one of these dedicated tig brushes varies from a tig welding machine with AC output? They would seem to be similar. Any electrical engineers out there care to comment? Thanks. BTW, your gloves are fantastic!
Pickling will also Leach cell Akeem out of the base metal at leave it a bit on the brittle side. I know that it does it with Molly steal that General Dynamics was using to make the bolts for their M14 manufacture that they started some years ago. I wouldn't think that it would do any less to stainless
this is an old video for me but i think a lot of people are missing the point of using the acid over abrasives for cleaning up the weld. obviously one or the other needs to be used because customers dont want the coloring to be seen on the product, but the REAL benefit to using the acid, for my industry at least, is that it removes the coloring while preserving the grain of the stainless. i make food prep tables and a lot of high end products to be used for residences and commercial kitchens and while stainless is one of the most easily scratchable materials, it needs to look MINT on delivery. this means no scratches, no "blurring" of the grain, and no crosshatching from polishing two different directions of grain. with the very fine grain thats put on stainless from the mills, its nearly impossible to match it perfectly with abrasives. so on parts of the table that need fillet welds or where the bends cause the grain to travel perpendicular to eachother, the only good way to remove burn without compromising the grain with abrasives is with the acid.
Vapor blasting is just pressurized wet sand paper. That physically removes material. Electrochemical etching takes off the top oxide layer through electrolysis. Completely different.
Its called passivation. There's specific instances its has to be done, sometimes its just for a no blend finish. Not blending the welds smooth and bringing up to polish\mirror finish is well can be less expensive to have done.
The colors are beautiful, true. But if you work in a food plant, QA is gonna scream if you don't post treat your welds. Don't ask me how I know this. Oh yeah, I think that pickling paste mostly removes the iron compounds. Kinda like passivation. So it reduces the risk of corrosion, in my understanding.
Hopefully you an your family had a blessed Thanksgiving this season. Very interesting and informative video this week. Thanks so much voss. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friend voss. Keep making. Fab on. Weld on. Keep making. God bless.
having just retired after 45 years as a coded welder (Lloyds class 1, asme 9, CEGB 1, bureau veritas in 6g among others MIG,ARC, and gas on every material . Nobody including the boss as long as its correct and passes x-ray they dont care how pretty it looks
Or you can buy yourself phosphoric acid at least 75%, some 12v 20a dc power supply (car battery charger works fine) , carbon fiber brush (-), ground clamp (+) and do the same steps. Just rinse it well with water.
I was cleaning out a building for my boss and found one of those (different brand). I did not have a need for it (I don't weld stainless). I think he sold it
Well id say they balance the color to its original form IF it is being painted. Slight color variations can be seen trough the paint so flat bae color is kinda must.
I always kinda wondered but I know at my old job which was alot of contract work for aerospace companies and GSA work ect..we were not really allowed to have much or any color in our welds...if it had "too much " color when it went to inspection it automatically was rejected so I didn't know if it was at all related to that? even though it would still be a fail lol side note...now I think it's so funny that people ask me if I can make it have colors especially with anything Titanium I'm working with lol hey as long as I know it's a good and safe weld and can do what they want I'm down I guess lol
Funny... 40 years as an instrument/ pipefitter, working with and as a weldor, in Nuclear, Chemical Weapons, Medical, Computer Chip, Food Processing, Paper Making, and many, many more industries.., I/we were always required to clean our welds. We always used approved procedures, which was to use clean (virgin) SS wire brushes. Hand or powered. NEVER, until today, have I heard or seen this chemical cleaning method. Go ahead and spend the money if you want, but the most stringent procedures I've ever come across were satisfied with clean SS brushes. We'd identify "stainless only" tools with white paint, and red paint for non-stainless. Simple. Cheap. Cost effective.
As pretty as good colors look when just finished, they look dingy after a couple weeks in the field. It’s better to get the color off asap. It’s easier to get the color off while the weld is still hot. Once the weld cools it takes more effort if using stainless brush.
From what I’ve heard and read about Tig welding a good Tig weld is not supposed to be colored there should be a colored boarder a few mm away but the weld should be silver even on metals that anodize
I took a class on tig welding. When welding stainless I had the hardest time getting the colors and mostly got a dark color weld. The teacher kept saying the weld was too hot. I turned the heat down, tried to move faster, and nothing helped and he would not tell me how to weld cooler if that is why it really what the problem was. Suggestions!!!!! Thanks
You didn't have enough gas coverage, your tungsten was contaminated, or like you said weld was too hot. I use a gas lens and the fupa #12 ceramic cup, try that with 15-20cfh of gas flow.
'The teacher kept saying the weld was too hot' You can reduce the heat input value by turning the amps up, by melting the metal quicker allows you to travel faster, net result lower heat input value. - Amps x Volts x 60 / travel speed x 1000
I weld kitchens and we have to do electro cleaning. It is one of my least favorite things to do. You just have to be so careful with it cause it is very unhealthy with fumes and chemicals. If you have to do a ton of it, it becomes a pain.
I think depending on what one and what accessories they range from around $2k-$6. It’s definitely worth it but if it’s worth it for you would depend on how much you would be using it. If you have some jobs you could do with it then you could even make the money back.
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I spent 7 years building 304 and 316 stainless tanks for agriculture. We pickled most of our welds but also used a surfox machine on heat tint from interior welds. Worked awesome! Pickling will discolour the material more but these machines will remove just the tint if you don’t go nuts with the machine. We found that the pickling was sufficient passivation. The crazy thing is stainless will “heal” itself eventually. It will develop a passive layer over time. Even rust spots will eventually eat themselves away. For ag use it’s amazing what stainless with hold up to!
Rust spots???... Must be a low grade stainless... But being RollsRoyce I wouldn't know of such stuff😁
@@lordbelvoir2543 Rust spots is normal on welded stainless, the iron separates on the surface of the melted metal so you get tiny spots of iron that is not chemically bonded with chrome. After it rusts and gets worn out of the structure it's completely fine as most of the steel is actually stainless. Low grade is the stuff that will easily rust "out of the box" in patches\strips (depending on how it was formed), THAT is low grade stainless.
@@ScarletFlames1 mate I stand corrected.... Shouldn't have opened me gob having not dealt alot in stainless
@@ScarletFlames1 Also, if you use tools that have contacted mild steel on stainless, the stainless will nearly rust while you look at it.
@@mikeford963 that's just direct contamination, it'll form surface rust and inside the scratches the iron got shoved into during abrasion and then you'll be left with a slightly rusty looking stainless steel. Unless you somehow put a deep thin groove and filled it with iron the expansion when it oxidizes won't cause anything other than surface damage.
Then again, many times stainless steel is used for its surface properties so that contamination is undesireable.
So as was summed in the video, have separate abrasives for anything that can rust vs anything that won't.
Thank you for presenting this. Passivation is poorly understood, but for sanitary welds, absolutely essential.
Particularly if the service is the food or chemical industry. Those surface oxides can be very detrimental to the vessels contents or they can effect the actually weld performance in service.
And how you clean the inside????
We use formation gas and clean outside electronic for more than 20 years already
I’m a machinist but not a welding expert by any means so I’m glad you mentioned sanitary applications. I didn’t even think of that although it would most likely be specified by the customer but also good for us to have the knowledge regardless
@@SolasChristusMinistry I worked in a shop where we built a stainless steel tank for a company that made gelatin products. The customer specified that they would be responsible for all on site cleaning prior to the unit being placed in service. Another part of their specifications was to do a dye penetrant test on the floor to shell weld. Sine the tank was to be painted on the outside, we applied the dye on the inside and the developer on the outside. This was because the dye is a bear to remove. We shipped the unit and about a month later we received a very angry phone call from the client. Seems that had not done the internal cleaning as they should nor did they have the Government inspectors in as they are supposed to by law on any foodstuff installation. Because they jumped the gun and cut corners to begin production, they now had 10,000 gallons of pink gelatin......... They also had their operating license revoked until every inch of their plant was inspected for other "cost cutting" methods.
Passivation isn’t hard to do. It can be done with citric acid.
If you conscientiously study chemistry at school, there will be no need to overpay for such a device and solutions in cute canisters with beautiful labels. Reagents cost mere pennies, and the power source can either be ordered on popular trading platforms, or even use a welding inverter at a minimum current. The active solution is just a 1.5% hydrochloric acid solution, and a baking soda solution can be used to neutralize it. And if you read a little special literature on electrochemistry, you can even make a solution to obtain a mirror surface.
Holy shit, I just looked up the price on that thing. Almost four THOUSAND dollars??? Insane. That's twice the price of my welder. I will definitely look into making my own instead. Mind boggling how people willingly pay companies that much for a plastic machine with very simple electronics in it.
@@werk62 You're damn right!)
I know the food industry uses nitric acid, i think its got to be at an elevated temperature though.
@@mitchdenner9743 Temperature rises quickly when process begins. So for this particular case you don't need additional heat.
Cheap Chinese/Amazon tig welder works great as the powersource. HCl (muriatic acid) can be bought at Lowe's/home Depot/Walmart. Highly recommend using gloves and eye protection when working with these chemicals.
just an fyi from a someone who did this for a living -- the used passivation fluid contains soluble chromium and is therefore a hazardous waste per US EPA. Depending on your voltages, it can make a bit of hexavalent chromium as well. Its copper and nickel content can ding you as well. But still profitable!
Worth mentioning that hydrofluoric acid will absorb in through your skin and attack your bones. Even a tiny drop on a finger, even if washed off immediately, can result in the loss of that finger, or your whole hand/wrist if you don't seek immediate treatment. It can also cause fatal cardiac issues. HF is the nastiest acid I know that's actually used for anything outside the laboratory.
Edit for clarification: Hydrofluoric acid "pickling paste" was the *old way*. That's the justification for the expense of one of these electrochemical units. They may be a bit of an investment, but you can't put a price on health. The use of electricity allows for much milder solutions to be used, even non-toxic citric acid based solutions work with electrochemical cleaning.
Also, not to be a grammar gestapo, but it's "passivate/passivated" not "pacify/pacified".
I got a large dollup in my right eye and had to go to the hospital but I did not lose the eye. Immediate milk and water saved it. It's now ten years later and the eye is working fine. This acid does not get in your bones or cut off your fingers if you get a drop on them. At least the acid they sell for pickling welds. Thanks.
Any tig welder that does stainless probably already knows this. Common practice. Most customers don't want a rainbow welds to begin with. Unfortunately almost everything I weld at work (Pharma Manufacturing) has to be passivated. I will admit it pains me to clean it up. I love the natural colors from tig welding stainless.
Wow I am amazed people don't want shiny welds. I don't really do stainless for work, but even the coupons I weld together for fun, I clean away the colors with a brush right away. I guess colors are not my thing!
I do pharma stainless as well same stuff in Germany I love those colours
@@AlessioSangalli work at a sugar refinery. Nobody here keeps the oxidation on welds, less professional and less consistent looking 🤙🏽
Good piece of equipment..
Worked in a factory welding parts for Industrial incubators for the poultry industry, and they used a tig brush on all of our SS welds.
Nice! Yeah it worked awesome. Hopefully will get one someday, just don’t have a need for one right now to justify the price
We made our own machines back in 2004 and they worked fine but we upgraded to the newer machines now and it’s by far the best way to clean stainless
We use the tig brush unit on all the radiator coils we build for food, medical, government, and nuclear projects.
pickling gel works just as well and it's cheap. just wear some plastic gloves, faceshield / glasses. let it sit / soak for 30+ minutes and rinse of with water. i built a huge plastic container and just let it soak in there for a few hours to make sure it removes all the contaminated dust around me. i weld only 316L so I can't speak for 304 stainless.
pickling gel works wonders with both 304L and 316L, just dont let it be too cold when using it(takes forever for it to work). I make different constructions / machines for aquaculture.
@@Onkael91 question, what do you use for filler when welding 304?
@@blipys 316L
we used this at work, everyone HATED pasavacation day. berating that vapor was brutal even just the smell was horrid. the acid ruins any clothing like battery acid. i made a trailing cup so i never had to use it and a wire brush (strictly ITAR controlled SS only brush) on what little did color. he used a dirty wheel intintionally because it works other wise. ive worked in aerospace on aircraft parts and all we used were wire brushes on ss and Inconel but went thru grate lengths with back purge and trailing cups so they wouldn't color if it could be helped
Passivation day! Sounds a lot like judgement day, a day to be avoided!
I am an advanced hobbyist, and I build motorcycle exhausts, and the occasional architectural railing in stainless. I looked into passivation quite a bit several years ago. The thing about the industrial passivation chemicals is that it contains a strong acid, and the smoke/steam/mist that comes off of it is somewhat dangerous - as you mentioned, it will rust *everything* in your shop without proper ventilation, and it's not at all good to breathe. I purchased some carbon brushes off Amazon, which I hold in a rod stinger from my TIG welder running ~25 amps AC, and use heated citric acid, which is basically the active ingredient in lemon juice. It takes longer, and makes a horrendous sticky mess, but it works. One thing I've found is that when you place and lift the brush, it needs to be quick, or you get arcing which can mark the material, and the arc eats up the brush.
Use a crimped copper pipe wrapped in rags and soaked in citric acid solution, then wipe it across the welds.
there is a citric acid gel I used to passivate stainless. useful for passivating insides where you cannot easily reach. I just let it sit over night and it dries, than just wash down with soap and water. Non-toxic & no risk of a chemical burn.
3M bristel brush.Same like finish then a wire brush. And don’t have the chemicals.
@@mariomachielse2236 the purpose of passivating is to remove potential sources of corrosion, wire brushing is not going to do that completely.
Passivation builds an oxide layer on stainless steel that protects the underlying metal.
This is how all the welds looked in all of the equipment when I spent a summer working at a salmon fishery in Alaska. Perfect and clean welds on stainless.
Electro polishing also makes the surface finish finer which reduces any trash from collecting and that too makes it more corrosion resistant
I used to build hollow metal doors and frames out of stainless and we always had to use that Heat Tint Remover (think some call it pickle paste but, the bottle says HTR and some number beside it) to take those colors out of the frame corners because in that particular case it looked terrible otherwise. However in some cases you want those colors to stand out as part of the appeal typically art pieces and such. But in most construction applications you want to remove that heat tint from the welds so it actually looks more uniform and better. It also protects the welds from corrosion and oxidation later on especially on something outside exposed to the elements. That paste also cant be left on stainless too long or it will destroy the nickel in the stainless and ruin the part. Only 10 minutes no more no less. I never see or did it but, I heard stories of a guy before me that put it on there and went to lunch and come back to a destroyed $1500 Frame. We never used that Electro Chemical Process but, it seems a lot better and definitely faster.
It usually doesn’t matter what the welder thinks, it’s what the contract calls for. Most jobs I do require pacification, some even spec a specific brand of electrochemical heat tint removal solution and neutralizer.
Justin Voss.. I been wondering what that brush was all about. Thanks for sharing it.
I built vitamin dehydrators out of 304 stainless steel never had a problem worked with it for years I can't entertain this video no longer thank you so much
it's very impormative content,you complete explain,how to assemble the Tig weld tools good job
Very thorough presentation, and helpful enough!❤
Makes the weld uniformed when doing welds in food and Pharma industries!. The Tig Brush is the best bit of kit for cleaning welds in a engineering work shop, and saves so so much time!!!
We have a Tig Brush for cleaning tig welds, and it mostly works, but the connected parts break down quickly. The took ours in for a service, and didn't do anything with it, not even cleaned it on the outside. The original brushes are insainly expensive compared to other brands (like 25x more expensive).
Glad to see there are still some real welders out there
For art work that you want to retain the color, a clear topcoat would probably help a lot.
I would have liked to seen you use the TIG brush on the back side of those stainless test pieces. I suspect there is a lot more oxidation on the backsides unless you had a applied a gas shield.
Still works, takes a few more passes but even grey burnt stainless comes to it clean eventually. I use these machines regularly
the coloration is due to a layer of oxide so since there is already an oxide layer to get started it rusts. the stainless when clean has a resistance to letting it get a foot hold at room temperatures in order for it to start rusting it would need to be heated or exposed to corrosive substances...
In my experience I’ve used a similar tool in the video. Some kind of chemical or acid along with current on that brush takes the color right out
To bad you did not include pickling paste in your test because it works fine and is a cheap and simple alternative to buying an expensive piece of machinery.
Pickling paste is banned in most countries because is a carcinogen
@Trent Rayment I am in the netherlands and can tell you it is allowed in all europe as it is not carcinogen, europe having the most strict health and enviromental laws of the world.
its a mixture of nitric acid and hydrofluoric acid, yes it can be dangerous if used without regards for safety but it is not carcinogen.
Its R-phrases are R-23-24-25-35 meaning toxic and risk of burns but nothing more, the toxicity goes away with dilution, if you wash it of with plenty of water it looses its toxicity quickly to the level off ordinary household chemicals like bleach and toilet cleaner
If you use adequate safety gear (gloves, face shield and an apron) there is no problem using it.
*too
It's because the fumes have the potential to be 'Corrosive' on contact with skin, eyes, and in the respiratory system...
@Stephen Keebler yes, that is what the R-phrase R-35 mean (duh), the R-23-24-25 means its toxic,
It is meant only for professional use, if you are a professional you should know how to interpret a warning label on a professional product, if you are not a professional and dont know how to read a warning label dont mess around with stuff you dont understand, get help from someone who does know or get an education.
Did you know you can get a nice life threatening death shock from a welder if you are outside in the rain? , 48 volt can kill you.
And if you stick a screwdriver in your side pocket and fall it may kill you.
Metal working can be dangerous.
Always remember when you are hobbying: Darwin is always checking on you.
Most pickling solutions I came across are using hydroCHLORIC acid as an ingredient - only titanium requires HF = hydroFLOURIC acid or HF-based salts. HF is something you do NOT want in your house. I have radioactive stuff in my garage, as well as arsenic, cyanide and mercury compounds... but I would never ever store HF on my property.
You are not wrong. HF (Hydro FLOURIC) is very bad news.
There is Hydrofluoric acid in many pickling pastes and while it's strong, it's relatively safe in this form. Getting some on your skin will feel irritated after a few minutes, rinse off with water. It might cause light discoloration of skin.
That depends on the concentration. 2% is about like battery acid. Both give you a minute to clean up before your skin becomes irritated.
With hydrofluoric acid its not the acid part that really matters, it is the fluorine/ide/ic part that does, as it will get into your body, leech out the calcium out of your bones and cause nerve damage due to the calcium fluoride, as well as heart attacks.
@@Bob_Adkins Its no0t the acid part(the hydrogen is a proton which is what usually causes the damage with acids). It is the fact that it is fluoride in high concentration.
For those wondering tig settings were DCEP 100A HF Start .5 preflow 5 second postflow and 9000CFH flow
8:14 "I'm not about rusting my welding table" *proceeds to pour and mix the chemicals on his welding table* lmao
I tig weld stainless handrails and we just polish it with a cotton, job done 👍
Did you ever have any issues with rust? I am doing something similar to your rails and that is my only concern with whether or not to get one of these fancy machines.
I worked for... well, Probably the first Commercial Fryer company, that comes to your mind.
I can concur, all welds on the inside of any of our foodservice equipment had to be acid washed.
Also, sleeves, eye, and respiratory protection, highly recommended.
This is effectively an electro-etching process. Done long enough with enough current density and it would actually pit the material. As such, you could theoretically DIY this machine with a DC power supply of some sort and an electrolyte
Did this at my previous job, it's definitely a neat process but it absolutely sucks to do for hours on end when you're cleaning complex parts, especially with all the safety equipment I had to wear.
If you don’t mind me asking, what kind of safety equipment did you gave to wear.
Why do you characterize it as defiant?
@@bent.cyclist maybe it was a typo and he meant definitely
@@chrisp9046 Safety glasses, chemical resistant long gloves, and a filtered respirator (like the ones you would find in a paint shop) due to the fumes.
@@H2Oslicer123 Ahh. And do you do this for an extended period of time? I’m thinking I ought to use more/better ppe when I do this at work, even if it’s occasional.
That pink liquid looks literally like industry standard hydrofluoric acid used for aluminum wheel cleaner. The clear stuff is probably propylene glycol mixed with sodium hydroxide and alcohol to dilute the sodium hydroxide. Pretty common base used to neutralize acids, it's also what's in dawn dish soap.
MSDS indicates phosphoric acid
The chemical from surfox actually adds back chromium to the surface as it cleans the oxide tint layer off. If you use a wire brush on polished material God bless your soul trying to brush in the grain direction on a filet weld.
He'll yah I've done passivation on stainless pharmaceutical 316. With citric acid but I don't know if they applied a voltage to the solution. Do you know the difference, if any?
Guess I'll have to ask the old foreman hopefully his number still works..
Yes, it's "passivate" not "pacify." Removing free iron from the surface and letting a chrome oxide layer form on the surface of stainless, which stops further corrosion. Nitric acid has traditionally been used, and less hazardous than hydroflouric. For most of us it's even better to use citric acid (there are commercial formulas), getting the weld and HAZ wet with a brush or cotton swab. Wait a minute or two, then rinse. Inexpensive, almost no hazard. Let's not make this more complicated, expensive, or hazardous than it needs to be!
Never tought it would be a that big difference! 🙀
Your channel is a blessing!
It depends on the application, in a restaurant or medical situation you want a nice shiny clean consistent surface
just hit it with a stainless brush while its still hot,that roloc is just knocking down the weld profile and youll never get all the oxidation out unless you blend the whole weld down.3m makes blue scotch brite wheels not pads that will take the color out without blending the weld,you can soften them up with a ball pein to break down some of the epoxy and resin structures to really get in tight spots
you can electro polish with just a regular tig welder use about 30 amps .
I like your safety glasses what brand are they?
That was interesting and informative young man, many thanks!
You can also use a fiber clean laser to clean both before welding and after.
I have one of these machines and the surface after laser cleaning is not similar to the surrounding metal. Cosmetically. OK for industry, not for appearance sake. Good comment.
I am curious how different the output of one of these dedicated tig brushes varies from a tig welding machine with AC output? They would seem to be similar. Any electrical engineers out there care to comment? Thanks. BTW, your gloves are fantastic!
I did an experiment using my tig machine set to AC @ 20 amps with a carbon brush dipped in Surfox cleaning fluid. It worked quite well.
Pickling will also Leach cell Akeem out of the base metal at leave it a bit on the brittle side. I know that it does it with Molly steal that General Dynamics was using to make the bolts for their M14 manufacture that they started some years ago. I wouldn't think that it would do any less to stainless
That’s interesting info
this is an old video for me but i think a lot of people are missing the point of using the acid over abrasives for cleaning up the weld. obviously one or the other needs to be used because customers dont want the coloring to be seen on the product, but the REAL benefit to using the acid, for my industry at least, is that it removes the coloring while preserving the grain of the stainless. i make food prep tables and a lot of high end products to be used for residences and commercial kitchens and while stainless is one of the most easily scratchable materials, it needs to look MINT on delivery. this means no scratches, no "blurring" of the grain, and no crosshatching from polishing two different directions of grain.
with the very fine grain thats put on stainless from the mills, its nearly impossible to match it perfectly with abrasives. so on parts of the table that need fillet welds or where the bends cause the grain to travel perpendicular to eachother, the only good way to remove burn without compromising the grain with abrasives is with the acid.
What's wrong with mineral spirits and priming? Other than covering stainless but if thats the look you want one could use a clear coat.
you can also use a vapor blaster to passivate the surface of stainless steel
Vapor blasting is just pressurized wet sand paper. That physically removes material. Electrochemical etching takes off the top oxide layer through electrolysis. Completely different.
We make sanitary tanks and a if it doesn't need to be ground sanitary we usually Tig brush it to take the color off
Wasn't expecting this to be an unboxing video
can we get a comparison against pickling paste? its not as unheard of as you might think, and id like to hear your opinion on it.
Hi Justin, COOL VIDEO. How do you protect the tig colours and prevent it from changing over time?
Any chance of zooming in to work you film.
8:35 hey it's the Project Farm "we're gonna test that" rusting solution!
Great demonstration
Its called passivation. There's specific instances its has to be done, sometimes its just for a no blend finish. Not blending the welds smooth and bringing up to polish\mirror finish is well can be less expensive to have done.
The colors are beautiful, true. But if you work in a food plant, QA is gonna scream if you don't post treat your welds. Don't ask me how I know this.
Oh yeah, I think that pickling paste mostly removes the iron compounds. Kinda like passivation. So it reduces the risk of corrosion, in my understanding.
Food prep welding is so tedious.
Hopefully you an your family had a blessed Thanksgiving this season. Very interesting and informative video this week. Thanks so much voss. Keep up the great craftsmanship and hard work my friend voss. Keep making. Fab on. Weld on. Keep making. God bless.
Same to you!
having just retired after 45 years as a coded welder (Lloyds class 1, asme 9, CEGB 1, bureau veritas in 6g among others MIG,ARC, and gas on every material . Nobody including the boss as long as its correct and passes x-ray they dont care how pretty it looks
This channel is going places
Pickling paste contains hydrofluoric acid. And that is really nasty stuff. Got to wikipedia and look for hydrofluoric acid burn.
Crevice corrosion may occur in non-cleaned/passivated joints.
A brief citric acid soak is cheap, safe, less mess, fewer steps, and very nearly as good.
Or you can buy yourself phosphoric acid at least 75%, some 12v 20a dc power supply (car battery charger works fine) , carbon fiber brush (-), ground clamp (+) and do the same steps. Just rinse it well with water.
I was cleaning out a building for my boss and found one of those (different brand). I did not have a need for it (I don't weld stainless). I think he sold it
Welding stainless steel passenger rail cars we would always have to clean the welds electro etching . But great video.
Just wondering what happens if you clean the rusted stainless again?
Well id say they balance the color to its original form IF it is being painted. Slight color variations can be seen trough the paint so flat bae color is kinda must.
I always kinda wondered but I know at my old job which was alot of contract work for aerospace companies and GSA work ect..we were not really allowed to have much or any color in our welds...if it had "too much " color when it went to inspection it automatically was rejected so I didn't know if it was at all related to that? even though it would still be a fail lol
side note...now I think it's so funny that people ask me if I can make it have colors especially with anything Titanium I'm working with lol hey as long as I know it's a good and safe weld and can do what they want I'm down I guess lol
Funny... 40 years as an instrument/ pipefitter, working with and as a weldor, in Nuclear, Chemical Weapons, Medical, Computer Chip, Food Processing, Paper Making, and many, many more industries.., I/we were always required to clean our welds. We always used approved procedures, which was to use clean (virgin) SS wire brushes. Hand or powered. NEVER, until today, have I heard or seen this chemical cleaning method. Go ahead and spend the money if you want, but the most stringent procedures I've ever come across were satisfied with clean SS brushes. We'd identify "stainless only" tools with white paint, and red paint for non-stainless. Simple. Cheap. Cost effective.
Thanks for the reply. Never knew about stainless only wire brushes until today!!
As pretty as good colors look when just finished, they look dingy after a couple weeks in the field. It’s better to get the color off asap. It’s easier to get the color off while the weld is still hot. Once the weld cools it takes more effort if using stainless brush.
From what I’ve heard and read about Tig welding a good Tig weld is not supposed to be colored there should be a colored boarder a few mm away but the weld should be silver even on metals that anodize
Would you use this to clean the metal before welding?
Cool, never saw this before. Interesting
Random question, are you right or left handed?
Educational and helpful, thanks for the video.
We do conveyors. If its stainless? it's getting passified.
They send you so many probably because you're actually etching metal with acid it means it also eats the parts the brushes are anchored into.
I'm definitely a lil crazy, but in the trades crazy is GOOD
I took a class on tig welding. When welding stainless I had the hardest time getting the colors and mostly got a dark color weld. The teacher kept saying the weld was too hot. I turned the heat down, tried to move faster, and nothing helped and he would not tell me how to weld cooler if that is why it really what the problem was. Suggestions!!!!! Thanks
You didn't have enough gas coverage, your tungsten was contaminated, or like you said weld was too hot. I use a gas lens and the fupa #12 ceramic cup, try that with 15-20cfh of gas flow.
@@diamondperformancefab5931 Dan:
Thanks for the information. Hope you and your family stay well and have happy holidays.
'The teacher kept saying the weld was too hot' You can reduce the heat input value by turning the amps up, by melting the metal quicker allows you to travel faster, net result lower heat input value. - Amps x Volts x 60 / travel speed x 1000
@@iwb316 Thanks. Happy Holidays
Question for everyone.. I am just getting into welding/fabricating. Which style of die grinder should I buy. Straight or 90 degree?
90*
Both. They're cheap enough.
@@jasomkovac9115 I like your thoughts.. I do always need more tools
I hardly use my straight die grinder
After years, I finally bought a 90°, and it's GREAT.
Short and simple... Do it the right way or you get what you deserve.. Which is pretty much my outlook on all things in life...
Shame you didn’t do a section with pickle paste or passive ting gel too.
Useful information, nice!
Your welds are brutal. lol just kidding. This was pretty cool. Always something new to learn
3:21 that disc wore down the metal a good bit
Hey Justin, I just order some of your defiant metal gloves. I can't wait to try them out.
Appreciate it man! Hope you like them!
@@JustVoss I'll let you know.
@@JustVoss I like mine! I have big hands and they fit great! You know what they say about big hands..... big gloves. :)
How much do these cost? I can't find price information.
They range from $3000-$4000
thanks! valuable content.
Very good video Good information
We don this al the time at feadship. We do this to protect the stainless from salt water from the sea.
Pharmaceutical product manufacturing equipment maintenance requires this as well. We call it electro-polishing.
This old Tony did a video a few years ago on pickling paste.
I weld kitchens and we have to do electro cleaning. It is one of my least favorite things to do. You just have to be so careful with it cause it is very unhealthy with fumes and chemicals. If you have to do a ton of it, it becomes a pain.
I clean my welds with the grinder and paint
What's the price on the Tigbrush and, 8n your opinion, would it be worth it for a hobbyist?
I think depending on what one and what accessories they range from around $2k-$6. It’s definitely worth it but if it’s worth it for you would depend on how much you would be using it. If you have some jobs you could do with it then you could even make the money back.
Justin, love the videos. My question is in your opinion what is the least expensive tig machine for welding aluminum?
So does this method produce hexacromium gas?
What type of SS is that? 304 or 316?