Fun fact: Dame is used nowadays as a title for a "female knight". (E.g. Dame Maggie Smith) A Dame is obviously not a "Sir" but she holds equal rank with a man who has been knighted (e.g Sir Ian Mckellen) IN HER OWN RIGHT. Not because of marriage.
I've read that "count" came from Latin & was meaning "companion of the emperor", so in Europe "count/countess" became titles. But in England those were not introduced until the Norman conquest of England where they already had the title of "earl" (Anglo-Saxon origins), but there was no female equivalent for "earl". So now they are known as "countess" 💫
The title of Earl is from British Peerage and is the equivalent to a French Comte (Count). There was no feminine title equivalent in Old English/Old Norse, so the wife of an Earl uses the French equivalent Countess (since in many cases the two county interchanged nobility).
@@lindamilks5455 which back then meant Lord or usually was the leader of of a community/area, usually just below a king. Dukes, on the other hand, were often in history, just as rich/powerful as kings, however, were denied the chance of being crowned by the Pope (Only the Pope or his legate/representative could grant the title of King). Case in point: the Dukes of Burgundy. which is why a Jarl couldn't become a duke equivalent, thus becoming a count equivalent. And the rest is history.
Yes! Of the titles still in use, only King, Queen, and Earl are of a non-Romance origin. King - Old English “cyning;” cognate to German “König” (king). Compare Latin “rex.” Queen - Old English “cwen;” cognate to Norwegian “kvinne” (woman). Compare Latin “regina.“ Earl - from O.E. “eorl;” cognate to, as others have said, Old Norse “jarl.” Similar in rank to a “count” in other systems. All the others come from Latin through French. Duke
@@dmen89 The thing about popes determining who crowns kings came later. The various "Germanic" successor kingdoms in Western Europe didn't initially look to the popes for legitimacy, who saw themselves as subjects of the emperor at Constantinople until the Carolingian period, and therefore not in the business of crowning independent sovereigns.
One thing I noticed in Downton Abbey is that when someone was addressing a peer and a peer's wife as "Your Grace/Lordship/Ladyship", the act seemed to reflect the addresser's social standing. I remember an episode in Downton Abbey where Tom Branson was told by The Dowager Countess to address the Duchess he was entertaining as "Duchess" instead of "Your Grace", implying that Branson, despite being technically correct, was making a social mistake. When the Granthams received a visit from The Duke of Crowborough, Lady Grantham addressed the Duke as "Duke". The Granthams and Tom Branson (as Lady Sybil's widowed husband) were part of the upper society. The only "Your Grace"s and "Your Ladyship/Lordship"s that we heard in the series are largely from the servants, who were socially inferior.
I just started watching Downton Abbey and I’m sad because it seems Sybil will have an untimely demise, which saddens me because one of my favorites 😢 Thank you for the insight!
Another thing to note is that Lady Violet Crawley is called "Lady Grantham", because she is the wife of the former Earl of Grantham ("Lord Grantham"). Lady Cora Crawley, the wife of the current Lord Grantham, is also "Lady Grantham". The daughters are called "Lady Mary/Edith/Sybil Crawley" because they do not have a title, and "Lady" is just a courtesy.
This was a great video! I wasn't aware that the rules behind these titles were this complex. Especially that the Duke and Duchess is never called a Lord and Lady, and that sons and daughters of a Viscount used 'Honourable'. I had wondered why the daughter of Lady Dalrymple in _Persuasion_ was called 'Honourable' Miss Carteret, while the daughters of Lady Cumnor in _Wives & Daughters_ used the title Lady (like Lady Harriet). That's something new I learned now. 🙂 So as I understand, the wives of Baronets and Knight-Baronets, if they were commoners and not daughters of peers, would be called Lady _surname_ (like Lady Lucas of _P&P_ ), but never Lady _firstname._ By contrast an Earl's daughter who marries a Baronet ( as in the case of Lady Catherine who married Sir Lewis de Bourgh in _P&P_ ) or a gentleman ( Lady Anne who married Old Mr. Darcy) would still be called as Lady _first name,_ but never as Lady _surname._ So Mr. Darcy's aunt is always called either _Lady Catherine_ or _Lady Catherine de Bourgh_ and never as _Lady de Bourgh,_ while his mother is called _Lady Anne_ or _Lady Anne Darcy_ and never as _Lady Darcy,_ as they inherit their titles from their father and not their husbands. A bit tricky this whole Lord-Lady thing, I say.. 🤔 In P&P 1995 adaptation, they made this mistake where Mrs. Reynolds, the housekeeper, refers to Mr. Darcy's mom simply as Mrs. Darcy! How offensive that might have sounded to them! 😀
It sounds like a villain title because a lot of writers in the past have decided to make their villains, especially in superhero stories, barons. I wonder why...
Earl for me. It's the Germanic term for Count, which originally referred to someone who has jurisdiction over a county, which is the absolute most responsibility I'd be comfortable with. The easiest way to think about your mother's question is that Earl of Grantham is a job held by a man named Robert Crawley. It's just... not a particularly demanding job by the time that Downton Abbey takes place.
Nice video. Maybe an honorable (there's that word again) mention for women who held these titles in their own rights and not through marriage would be cool. Currently, a knighthood given to a woman makes her a dame + first name. As for women holding titles from the peerage system in their own right, there are historical examples of this, but not many. (Of course, life peerages make the current situation very different.)
Order of precedence was legally enforceable in England during the Regency era. So in "Persuasion," Ann Elliot is more relaxed about her status as the daughter of a baronet while her younger sister, Mary, is much more tenacious about maintaining her right of precedence over even her own mother-in-law.
Love hearing you go through all these things. Trial by your peers (think peerage) was an important social distinction. Forget chatty and gossipy, the peerage literally stuck together (by marriage, schooling, etc) so people were more likely not to be convicted. That definitely needed to change. Knights and baronets are the gentry ie they had land and were considered gentlefolk. I'm not sure what title I'd want. Maybe a duchy as I think that suggests I'm probably descended from royalty.
Being tried by people who knew you was not always an advantage. When Earl Ferrers was tried for murdering his steward, in 1760, it did not help him that his peers were well aware of his violent temper. They convicted him and that led to the exercise of another lordly privilege - being hanged with a silk rope.
Baronets are sometimes dismissed as small fry because a baronetcy is the lowest hereditary title. However, some baronets belonged to ancient landed families and owned very large estates. Moreover, baronets were (and are) often linked by marriage to people with higher titles, including some of the grandest families in the land. For example, in 1797 a baronet named Sir John Menzies married Lady Charlotte Murray, the eldest daughter of the Duke of Atholl, whereas the first wife of the Duke of Roxburghe (another contemporary of Jane Austen) was the daughter of a baronet. Moreover, the 13th Duke of Argyll is the maternal grandson of a baronet. Finally, some untitled country gentlemen sometimes married the daughters of aristocrats. For example, in the late 1720s Thomas Robinson (who was subsequently made a baronet) married a daughter of the Earl of Carlisle.
@@EllieDashwood Hi Ellie. Thanks. In Pride and Prejudice Mr Darcy is of course an example of someone who is part gentry and part aristocracy. Moreover, in real life the Royal Family also have links to the landed gentry. For instance, one of the queen's great-grandmothers was the daughter of an untitled country gentleman: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisa_Cavendish-Bentinck
If you are interested, the Duke of Argyle is the only person in the UK (except the monarch) who is allowed to have his own army. He does have one, but it's only part-time and ceremonial in nature.
My married last name is Duque which is Spanish for duke. Some coworkers liked to jokingly call me Duchess. It was fun and I'd chose that title since I'm already used to being called Duchess. Same as you Ellie, not to keen on the "your Grace" but it's part of the package
The funniest thing is the courtesy title given to wives of Dukes' and Marquesses' non-firstborn sons (i.e. the sons that have the courtesy title Lord FirstName LastName). These ladies are known as Lady Husband'sFirstName LastName, or in everyday interactions simply as Lady Husband'sFirstName. So, for example, Winston Churchill's mother was Lady Randolph Churchill (or Lady Randolph in everyday interactions), since her husband, Lord Randolph Churchill, was a younger son of the Duke of Marlborough. Another important point is that if a woman who has the title of Lady by virtue of being the daughter of a peer marries a man who is not a peer, she will still customarily use her title, rather than being Mrs X. So, in Downton Abbey for example, when Lady Mary Crawley marries Mr Henry Talbot, she is known as Lady Mary Talbot, and is never referred to as Mrs Talbot.
Good video. Note: the correct pronunciation of "marquess" is ['mɑr.kwɪs] (~"máhr-kwiss") and the female equivalent "marchioness" is [mɑr.ʃə.'nɛs] (~"mahr-shuh-néss"). Also, the given example "Baron of Southwick" could not exist because holders of the two lowest-ranking peerages, viscountcies and baronies, are always just "Vicount X" and "Baron X" (never " Viscount of X" or "Baron of X" (except for a few rarely-used exceptions in the Scottish peerage)), so a true example could be "Baron Southwick." Conversely, holders of the two highest-ranking peerages, dukedoms and marquessates, are always "Duke of X" and "Marquess of X" (never just "Duke X" or "Marquess X"). Holders of earldoms can be either- "Earl of X" or just "Earl X" In addition, peers had even longer full titles that were used only in writing on official correspondence and documents and when formally announced: dukes are "the most noble X, Duke of X," marquesses are "the most honorable X, Marquess of X," earls, viscounts, and barons are all "the right honorable X, Earl of X/Viscount X/Baron X." For example, the full title of the main character in the show Downton Abbey is "The right honorable Robert Crawley, Earl of Grantham." One other thing regarding courtesy titles- they applied to widows also- first, a woman whose deceased husband was a peer can continue to fully use her title she gained through that marriage- until it is acquired by someone else- most often her eldest son's wife. Thereafter, the woman can still use the title as a courtesy, but the word "dowager" is added before it. An example of this is in Downton Abbey as well- Violet Crawley (Maggie Smith's character), was the "Countess of Grantham" as the wife of the 6th earl. She used that title until her son, Robert, the 7th earl, got married. His new wife- the rich American, Cora Levinson, became Cora Crawley, Countess of Grantham and Violet became the " Dowager Countess of Grantham."
@@suonatar1 You're welcome. I am actually an American but I love history and learning about British/European culture (and I watch a lot of period dramas!), so I happen to know a lot about stuff like this- even more than some Brits! ;-)
@@paulwillock3189 I'm not sure I understand the point you are making with your reply... Yes, as I wrote above, that character could be referred to as "Violet, Countess of Grantham" and actually I believe it would be fine to refer to the Duchess of Cambridge as "Kate, Duchess of Cambridge"- although that would be quite informal- she is more correctly called "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" (but also often (informally) called "Princess Kate").
My point is that Christian name before the title denotes the they are either divorced or widowed , the current duchess has a The and doesn’t need a name until she is a widow
I enjoyed watching several of your videos, yesterday. Thanks! A related topic you didn't address was Irish lords. Maybe you skipped over it as a needless complication... In case you didn't allow a brief introduction. Scotland had its own Peerage. Ireland had its own Peerage, its own Irish House of Lords (and its own Irish House of Commons). Historically accurate movies and book covers, that showed a Union Jack flag prior to 1800, showed one missing the diagonal red lines that represent Ireland. In 1800 Ireland was officially merged into the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack we know today came into use. The Prime Ministers who led Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, during the long war against Napoleon used every tool at their disposal to conduct that fight. That included handing out honours, like knighthoods, even to friendly mayors. And it included recommending the creation of new peerages. Heroic leaders, like Wellington, got some. Political cronies got some too. Political cronies, who didn't rate a title in the Peerage of Great Britain might be satisfied with an Irish peerage. You got to call yourself an Earl,, or a Baron. Forty years ago, decades pre-internet, my parents counted on me to pick up new nautical fiction novels, at a very large bookstore in downtown Toronto, that was a block away from the intercity bus terminal. It had the pretentious name "The World's Biggest Bookstore. It was actually large. 3 storeys tall, and a footprint larger than a football field - maybe 2 or 3 football fields. We'd already read all CS Forester's 11 Hornblower novels, when I picked up a couple of Patrick O'Brian's novels. We liked them. Back in those pre-internet days it was difficult to research an author. But the clerks there let me look at their most recent copy of "Books in Print". A quarterly book, larger than a big old style phonebook. And, in 1979, I found that Patrick O'Brian's first book was published in the 1930s! Yipes! There was no way he would live long enough to write many more novels! He had written just five of his Aubrey-Maturin novels at that time. What you might not know is that several of his fine novels had a couple of chapters of Jane Austen inspired socializing in English country houses prior to the naval expedition. One of the characters in the fourth novel, "The Mauritius Command", is a Lord Clonfert, an Irish Lord. And, in some painless exposition, O'Brian explains how being an Irish Lord was much less significant after the Act of Union, as the Irish House of Lords was superseded. I think you mentioned the Duke of Wellington. You may know that Wellington had older brothers, including his older brother, Richard, the Earl of Mornington. The title Earl of Mornington was only an Irish title. Richard had been given a title in the Peerage of Great Britain - only a Baron, but it let him sit in the House of Lords of Great Britain, prior to the Act of Union. Richard had been Governor of General of India, for several years, in the late 1790s. Nepotism, he took two of his younger brothers with him. One younger brother was his private secretary. His younger brother Arthur, the Army officer, came with him, was made a General. So, he got to be a General, but only in the Indian army, though the influence of his older brother Richard. But his Indian victories were his own work. Atlantic Magazine had a series of brief articles on when famous people first met. I remember reading the one about when the young Beatles met the (young) Diana Ross and the Supremes. (They were disappointed because the Supremes were dressed up in Jackie Kennedy inspired outfits, not Motown outfits) The other one I remember is the very interesting sole meeting of Lord Nelson, a notable braggart, and Arthur, who was not yet a famous peer. They were waiting in an official waiting room, for official meetings. Nelson, the Nation's hero, a Vice Admiral, goes over to a relatively young General he had never seen before, and starts bragging, and is frustrated and put out that the laconic young General does not fawn over him, like just about everyone else. Lots of Generals were not even the veterans of a single battle. Frustrated Nelson steps out, and commentators figure he asked someone, "Who the F... is that that laconic so-and-so, who isn't sucking up to me, the hero of half a dozen victories": ...only to be informed that Sir Arthur Wellesley, just returned from India, was also the hero of his own victories - in India. Sir Arthur Wellesley was put in charge of the relatively small British Forces in Iberia in, um, 1809(?), and started outsmarting an out-manoeuvring Napoleon's Generals. His victories earned him titles, a Baronage, lesser titles, Spanish and Portuguese titles, and eventually a Dukedom. So, he ended up considerably outranking his older brother. Both brothers were entitled to sit in the House of Lords. You mentioned that there are, currently 24 Dukedoms. When Wellington was made a Duke there were only eight Dukedoms more senior than his. He chose to be Lord Wellington, because he couldn't be Lord Wellesley, as his older brother was already Lord Wellesley. Back in those pre-internet days I consulted my University's library. Back in the 1790ish period there were just 92 lords sitting in the House of Lords Eventually, the diplomat brother, who had been Richard's Private Secretary was made a Baron, so there were three brothers in the House of Lords. A fourth brother, also a diplomat, was also rewarded with a Barony. The remaining brother, who lived to adulthood, who was the one who went into the clergy, was made a bishop. Four brothers, all sitting in the House of Lords, at the same time - I bet that was unprecedented. Richard's line came to an end, as he fathered all his children with his mistress, and they were, technically, bastards. Brother number 2 inherited the Earl of Mornington title, the Irish title. His line died out, too, so today's Duke of Wellington is also Earl of Mornington, among half a dozen other titles. The son of the baby brother, the second Baron Cowley, was ALSO a diplomat, and earned a step to being an Earl, and that line also continues to the present day.
I'm struggling to find O'Brian's books in my language. I've only found two first of the series (one in pdf). I could try to look for an english edition, but the nautical language can be tough. I love Aubrey and Maturin, and their friendship 😍
This was really helpful, thank you! I’m researching my ancestry and have some knights and baronets among my ancestors so this was really useful for understanding what that actually means.
so I'm hanging out at a dive bar in the SF Bay Area near where I live, and end up meeting up with and later on hooking up with a woman in her late 20's... the day after while eating breakfast she casually lets me know that her father was the late David Carnegie 14th Earl of Northesk ... making her a "Lady" ..go figure ..
A true " lady " as she styled herself , was full if it .number one . the title given her father was given to him as a singular title . in other words , his and his alone . it was NOT awarded as or intended to be an IINHERITED title . the " lady " in question was not awarded the title herself and neither was she created a " lady " . second , a true lady would never name drop in the fashion she did as it would be considered " bad form " and embarrassing to the family . third , and I truly hope it isn't the case , there are many titles lying about in various countries from families that have died out with no one to inheret or have surrendered their title or put it up for sale as a one time title . if you buy one of these you find you have no privileges , no seat in parliament , no rich estate , in fact all you have is a piece of paper saying you are lord so and so and that is all . and no , you don't get to meet the queen .
@@howardwayne3974 well, all that no with standing .. she was known as a Lady in what few British press articles I was. able to google about her... and she was by no means a poser nor a name dropper... I extracted the info from her on the 2nd day... she never once brought it up when I first met her and the condition she was in was such that she had EVERY reason to bring it up .. and yet she didn't.
@@howardwayne3974 daughters of earls are titled "Lady" first name. I couldn't resist looking this up. After her dad died the title went to an eighth cousin, because her only brother killed himself. Sad.
@@annbsirius1703 true , so very sad . strange how the upper classes no matter the nationality have a habit of popping themselves off ( one way or another ) . in the old days it was fir the honor if the family or the regiment .
The reason the nobility had the right to be tried by the House of Lords was that Magna Carta (I think it was Magna Carta) promised the right to trial by your peers. your equals. And us plebs aren't the peers of peers.
I understand that in England a noble was not required to marry a noble while in Germany they were. The woman loses the title when if she marries a non noble, or at least her children would.
That's like Prince Harry's child it was expected that he would be called The Earl of Dumbarton one of Harry's lesser titles but he does not want him to have a title but when Charles becomes king he could technically use the title of Prince as the grandson of a king
@Susan L H no Anne did not. The titles don’t pass through female line (beyond few Scottish ones she doesn’t have) So she doesn’t have title she could pass on. Her husband could have accepted a title upon marriage that his son could have inherited after his death however.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 Yes, Princess Anne did. Heredity is not the only way a royal can end up with a title. The Queen can and has offered titles to her descendents as she did to Princess Anne's husband and children. Princess Anne turned these down ... as did Prince Harry when he chose not to pass one of hs titles to his son. A general google search will throw up many articles about Princess Anne's decision such as www.thesun.co.uk/news/14286161/why-zara-tindall-peter-phillips-not-have-titles/
Archie could only use the title of Prince if Charles gives him that title. He would be entitled to confer the title if he wanted to, but he wants to slim down the Monarchy, and Harry and his family are outsiders now because that's what they chose.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 sorry Susan was right, you are not. the Queen did make Anne an offer. Princess Anne refused, however, choosing to allow her children to live their lives without the honours later afforded to their cousins. They are free to request a title if they choose. Anne's son Peter became the first of the Queen's grandchildren to marry in 2008, to Autumn Phillips, the Queen offered him an Earldom to celebrate - but he turned it down.
Not all lords are peers either. There are alot of old titles that are still perfectly legal to have as status and in your name as well as access to clubs and parties. These titles used to be seated to lands during the medieval period. All of those are possible to buy as well, but aren't expensive. These titles don't allow you to sit in the lords though.
Kate superceed the princesses Eugenie and Beatrice when she is with William but they superceed her when she is alone. Earl comes from old English which is the equivalent of the germanic title of count .
Another followup, related to the Duke of Wellington, and marriage in this period. Are you familiar with Georgiana Fane? You might find her story adds to the whole complexity of courting, in our favourite period. Georgiana Fane was an hieress who turned down proposals in her early twenties, and was entirely focussed on the much older Duke of Wellington. He wrote letters to her mother, when he was an elderly man, pleading with her to talk some sense to Georgiana, when she was a middle-aged stalker. Cheers! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiana_Fane
Dame is a german Word for an elegant woman. Possibly one of noblesse, but in the daily life it is also just a polite way to refer to a woman. The noble women are called Freiherrin, Gräfin, Baronin, Fürstin and Prinzessin.
Diana Princess of Wales' brother is known.as Charles Earl Spencer, he's a peer being that he inherited the title when their father passed away in 1992. I believe his oldest son is known as Lord Althrop. Before marrying Prince Charles, Diana was Lady Diana Spencer and before there two older sisters married, they were known as Lady Jane and Lady Sarah Spencer. Diana and her siblings were from a aristocratic background, they grew up at Althrop House which 8s where the current Earl lives and upon the grounds where Diana's final resting place is. Fun fact, Diana's maternal grandmother was confident and a lady in waiting to the Queen Mum, fun fact #2 : Diana and former US Sec. of State Colin Powell are related , they have a common Spencer ancestor who owned a plantation in Jamaica, Colin Powell's parents were from Jamaica. FF#3: Princes William and Harry are distantly related to Winston Churchill through their mom, Winston Churchill and Diana are descendants from different branches of the Spencer-Churchhill family, the branch the great British Prime Minister was from has a long line of the Dukes of Marborough which continues today.
I would be a marchioness, just because the title isn't as well known (on this side of the pond) as duchess or countess, and sounds impressive. 👸 I would insist on being addressed as Your Machionessness.
Dear Miss Dashwood, You do a lovely job here. I am a British person and I am also interested in these titles! I think that marquess is pronounced markwiss. The plural is markwisses. The wife of a marquess is a marchioness pronounced marshioness. The title of Dame is new. Please see below: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame You do a wonderful work here. Thank you. Mrs Elizabeth Darley Yorkshire Great Britain🌹
In some instances, the title of a peer can be inherited through a daughter. An example is John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough had no sons, and only two surviving daughters. An act of the English parliament in 1706 allowed the 1st Duke's daughters to inherit his English titles. Following his death in 1722, Lady Godolphin became suo jure Duchess of Marlborough.
Peers can be a political appointment and the tile dies with your death, a life peer then there is the hereditary peers, the title remains in the family, peers in ordinary is another level
Even today alot of British peers (hereditary not life) have more than one title, therefore until the current incumbent of the main title (Grandfather, father etc) dies the eldest son of every generation gets a courtesy (most dukedoms and marches usually have 2 or 3 lesser titles associated with them). Also, when addressing an envelope to a Marquess or Marchioness you put prefix the words 'The Most Honourable' before the title (you only do this when addressing an envelope though, not in the actual letter or in speech). Similarly when addressing envelopes to an EVB (Earl, Viscount or Baron) you prefix the words 'The Right Honourable' before the title. Baronetcy aren't generally seen as peerages due to the fact (with the exception of a few 1st degree or 2nd degree courtesy baronets) that unlike other ps bts can be bought off the crown (I believe they cost around £5,000)
Well done on creating such an informative video. I think I'd want to be an earl! Not that I ever could be as they stopped creating new titles about 50 years ago. Failing that I'd happily have a great big mansion instead.
Followup to my comment on Irish lords and the Duke of Wellington. Wellington and his brothers and sister were born in Ireland. His father and eldest brother held a title in the Irish peerage. But he did not consider himself to be Irish, or even Anglo-Irish. His comment on this was something like "Being born in a stable doesn't make one a Horse".
Sir Martyn Poliakoff CBE was recently knighted. He is a professor of chemistry at the University of Nottingham and appears on RUclips in Periodic Videos, short videos on various elements in the periodic table. Brady, who makes the videos, generally addresses him as "Professor"
In the Lord Peter Whimsey novels, Lord Peter I'd the second son of a duke. His older brother is the Duke of Denver, aka Duke Whimsey. His son is Lord St. George. Is that a spare title his dad is letting him use?
Ahah! I found it 😄 So if Colonel Fitzwilliam wasn't a colonel/in the military, then he would have been "the Honourable Mr. [First name] Fitzwilliam. As the name Richard is quite popular for him, he'd be "the Honourable Mr. Richard Fitzwilliam." I think Colonel Fitzwilliam sounds better then 😄
I always thought that the children it was the eldest who got the last name so I'd be miss champ an but my sister would be miss isobrl to show who was older
My paternal grandmother is the daughter of a Portuguese aristocrat. But given that she was a girl and married a commoner (and foreigner), this meant she lost her title upon her marriage. My dad has a first cousin who is a Count as he inherited the title eventually. Would be fascinating if you could do a video on nobility from other countries and how it all compared! Thanks
Maybe you can help me figure out what's going on with the Osbornes in "The Watsons." Jane Austen introduces them at the ball thusly: "After some minutes of extraordinary bustle without, and watchful curiosity within, the important party, preceded by the attentive master of the inn to open a door which was never shut, made their appearance. They consisted of Lady Osborne; her son, Lord Osborne; her daughter, Miss Osborne; Miss Carr, her daughter's friend; Mr. Howard, formerly tutor to Lord Osborne, now clergyman of the parish in which the castle stood; Mrs. Blake, a widow sister, who lived with him; her son, a fine boy of ten years old; and Mr. Tom Musgrave, who probably, imprisoned within his own room, had been listening in bitter impatience to the sound of music for the last half-hour. In their progress up the room they paused almost immediately behind Emma to receive the compliments of some acquaintance, and she heard Lady Osborne observe that they had made a point of coming early for the gratification of Mrs. Blake's little boy, who was uncommonly fond of dancing. Emma looked at them all as they passed, but chiefly and with most interest on Tom Musgrave, who was certainly a genteel, good-looking young man. Of the females, Lady Osborne had by much the finest person; though nearly fifty, she was very handsome, and had all the dignity of rank." SO HERE'S WHAT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT. What is Lord Osborne?? He has inherited the title since his father is dead, but what I don't get is, if the father had been an Earl, then his sister should be Miss + First Name, not Miss + Last Name! And if their father had been an Earl, wouldn't Osborne be the name of the title and not the family name?? It's so confusing! Did Jane Austen make one of her rare mistakes??
A good example of a fictional Baronet is Sir Leicester Deadlock in Dickens' Bleak House. Always addressed as "Sir Leicester Deadlock, Baronet" by Inspector Bucket. Is he being very correct, or sarcastic?
i know this just would not have been a thing back then at all, but i’m really curious about what would have happened if for example a duke married another man… would they just both be dukes? I know it would absolutely not have happened I’m just kinda curious lmao
I would have wanted to be a marchioness (btw, it's pronounced as "MARSH-o-ness," and marquess is pronounced "MAR-KWESS") because they are so rare apart from the courtesy title granted to a duke's eldest son's wife.
I would be His Grace, The Duke of ... , Marquess of ...... Earl of .. & Baron [ The Peer among peers] with Dukes especially it was often the case that they possessed an entire list of Titles in the Peerage
I think the Russian titles were just like the German ones, meaning that (unlike in France or the UK) every single child of a baron is a baron / baroness, every single child of a prince is a prince / princess or something like that (and maye every grandchild, and greatgrandchild and so on). I'm not hundred percent sure, but I think that, basically, the title is easier to get and pass on to your descendants (but again, I'm not sure it's true)
I recall reading in a Lord Peter Wimsey novel--totally different time period, of course--that Lord Peter's new wife was impressed that villager knew to call her Lady Peter. What's the story on that?
I don't remember who Lord Peter's father was, but let's pretend he was a Duke. The eldest son would use one of his father's titles. Younger sons and daughters would have courtesy titles of "Lord/Lady FirstName". Wives of the younger sons would be called "Lady Husband'sFirstName". Daughters just retained their own courtesy "Lady Firstname" if they married someone of lesser rank. The wife in Upstairs Downstairs, if I recall, was "Lady Firstname" although her husband was a mere Mr. Lastname. I think she was daughter of an Earl. Hope that helps.
@@Auriaux Yeah, the book is _Busman's Honeymoon._ (*Not* the one to start with.) Lord Peter is the younger brother of the Duke of Denver. And upon being introduced to his common-born bride, the village woman addresses her as "Lady Peter" rather than "Lady Harriet" -- without prompting, showing that she knows some of the ins and outs of this stuff. As opposed to Peter's sister, who remains "Lady Mary" [blanking.on.last.name] after _her_ marriage. In another novel, Peter's brother is on trial for murder. In the House of Lords, because he has to be tried by a jury of _his_ peers, literally!
I have a question: Supposing an Earl that has no sibling and only has 1 child which happens to be a daughter and that daughter marries let's say Duke or an Earl and eventually has 2 kids both boys what happens to the Grandfather Earl's title does it get passed down to the 2nd son? because the 1st son will inherit his father's title? Or will the 1st son get both titles?
Nice video, I really love your channel, I was loking for a channel like yours and I found it. I have just one question what is "lordship"? I remember lord Grantham being called like that in downtown abbey.
Aw, thank you! Lordship is just a word someone would use to address or talk about a Lord. So, like how someone would say about the Queen, "Her Majesty wants tea." Someone would say about a Lord, "His Lordship wants tea."
Titles are of either of England, Scotland, Great Britain or Ireland as well. Also, the older the nobleman title, his son and hair's title is lowered. For example, the Dukedom of Norfolk is the oldest English Dukedom. His son isn't a Marquess, he is the Earl of Arundel. Likewise for the oldest Scottish Dukedom. The Duke of Hamilton's son is Lord Clydesdale. The Duke of Richmond's son is the Earl of Kinvara. Who takes president can get sticky. What if a Barony was created in, say, 1478, and a Dukedom was created in, say, 1750. The Dukedom ranks higher, but the Barony is older. Who takes residence, the Baron or the Duke? In some instances, the Baron will. Other issues have to be taken into consideration such as age of the holders if the title
One of My ancestors held the title of Count. So, unfortunately, I would hold that title by default. Not that I mind - I have some great peers... Count Falco, Count Cagliostro, Count Alucard (Spell it Backwards).
You would be your father’s next highest title. So a Duke would more than likely have more than one title that he owns. He lets his oldest son use the second highest one, whatever that is. And generally very young children would still use their names until they hit a more mature age where they’d start using a title.
Wives of Barons are known as "The Lady (of)* (insert family/house name)". Baronesses are those who hold a Barony on their own right. *- "of" sometimes dropped Edit: I'm wrong. Wives of Barons can be called Baronesses too. However, women who hold the title in their own right solely call themselves "Baronesses" not "Lady"
I always wondered why Sir William Lucas's family was kinda poor and is was considered "Ok" for Charlotte to marry a rector. Honestly glad I'm American and don't have to live in this system, bur it's interesting none the less!
I really enjoyed the video. Here's a question for ya. Why is the duchess of Cambridge not referred as "princess" would like to know the answer to that one. Thanks
Because the title of prince or princess can only be inherited. Technically the wives of princes are considered princesses, but they aren't referred as such. Hence Princess Anne and Princess Charlotte are referred to as princesses+first name, but Katherine is referred to by her husband's second highest title - duke. Also, lady Diana wasn't a princess either, she was a lady by birth because her father was an earl. After her marriage she was mistakenly referred to as "princess Diana", because her husband had the title of prince of Wales (which is a title of heir apparent). So she was princess of Wales, but lady *first name* can only be used for princesses by blood.
don't forget if you have a title or your Duke you could be invited to the Queen's coronation if you go and watch the one from 1953 you'll see them during the ceremony taking off their hats and what not
I love Downtown Abbey. I have always wondered why Robert and Cora Crawley were called Lord and Lady Grantham. Why not Lord and Lady Downton? Is it because the region they live in is called Grantham? Also I know you're into classic literature but I thought the study of Downton Abbey and the culture during those times would be an excellent addition to your podcast.
This is not related to this video but I have a question. My father always says that I'm a hopeless romantic. I have a general idea of what it means but what does it really mean?
I think when people say hopeless romantic they mean someone who remains positive and doesn't stop believing in the beauty, truth, and importance of love no matter what! That's just me though! lol.
Fun fact: Dame is used nowadays as a title for a "female knight". (E.g. Dame Maggie Smith) A Dame is obviously not a "Sir" but she holds equal rank with a man who has been knighted (e.g Sir Ian Mckellen) IN HER OWN RIGHT. Not because of marriage.
I've read that "count" came from Latin & was meaning "companion of the emperor", so in Europe "count/countess" became titles. But in England those were not introduced until the Norman conquest of England where they already had the title of "earl" (Anglo-Saxon origins), but there was no female equivalent for "earl". So now they are known as "countess" 💫
That is so cool! I never knew that! That does make a lot of sense now.
I read that the English already had a bad word which sounded similar to 'conte', so that's why they defaulted to 'earl'.
Yes in French the translation of Earl is "Comte" and the wife would be a "Comtesse".
Funny that English retains a cognate of the old Germanic "Jarl" while German uses the unrelated term "Graf" for that level of precedence.
Earlessa meybe or earlesa
The title of Earl is from British Peerage and is the equivalent to a French Comte (Count). There was no feminine title equivalent in Old English/Old Norse, so the wife of an Earl uses the French equivalent Countess (since in many cases the two county interchanged nobility).
Thanks👍
Also the English word "Earl" comes from the Scandinavian word "Jarl" which is basically a Count.
@@lindamilks5455 which back then meant Lord or usually was the leader of of a community/area, usually just below a king. Dukes, on the other hand, were often in history, just as rich/powerful as kings, however, were denied the chance of being crowned by the Pope (Only the Pope or his legate/representative could grant the title of King). Case in point: the Dukes of Burgundy. which is why a Jarl couldn't become a duke equivalent, thus becoming a count equivalent. And the rest is history.
Yes! Of the titles still in use, only King, Queen, and Earl are of a non-Romance origin.
King - Old English “cyning;” cognate to German “König” (king). Compare Latin “rex.”
Queen - Old English “cwen;” cognate to Norwegian “kvinne” (woman). Compare Latin “regina.“
Earl - from O.E. “eorl;” cognate to, as others have said, Old Norse “jarl.” Similar in rank to a “count” in other systems.
All the others come from Latin through French.
Duke
@@dmen89 The thing about popes determining who crowns kings came later. The various "Germanic" successor kingdoms in Western Europe didn't initially look to the popes for legitimacy, who saw themselves as subjects of the emperor at Constantinople until the Carolingian period, and therefore not in the business of crowning independent sovereigns.
I would want to be a Countess, less pressure than a Duchess but higher ranking than a baroness! Also, I love The Scarlett Pimpernel too!
Yay for all the Pimpernel fans and Countesses!
One thing I noticed in Downton Abbey is that when someone was addressing a peer and a peer's wife as "Your Grace/Lordship/Ladyship", the act seemed to reflect the addresser's social standing. I remember an episode in Downton Abbey where Tom Branson was told by The Dowager Countess to address the Duchess he was entertaining as "Duchess" instead of "Your Grace", implying that Branson, despite being technically correct, was making a social mistake. When the Granthams received a visit from The Duke of Crowborough, Lady Grantham addressed the Duke as "Duke". The Granthams and Tom Branson (as Lady Sybil's widowed husband) were part of the upper society. The only "Your Grace"s and "Your Ladyship/Lordship"s that we heard in the series are largely from the servants, who were socially inferior.
I just started watching Downton Abbey and I’m sad because it seems Sybil will have an untimely demise, which saddens me because one of my favorites 😢 Thank you for the insight!
Another thing to note is that Lady Violet Crawley is called "Lady Grantham", because she is the wife of the former Earl of Grantham ("Lord Grantham"). Lady Cora Crawley, the wife of the current Lord Grantham, is also "Lady Grantham". The daughters are called "Lady Mary/Edith/Sybil Crawley" because they do not have a title, and "Lady" is just a courtesy.
This was a great video! I wasn't aware that the rules behind these titles were this complex. Especially that the Duke and Duchess is never called a Lord and Lady, and that sons and daughters of a Viscount used 'Honourable'. I had wondered why the daughter of Lady Dalrymple in _Persuasion_ was called 'Honourable' Miss Carteret, while the daughters of Lady Cumnor in _Wives & Daughters_ used the title Lady (like Lady Harriet). That's something new I learned now. 🙂
So as I understand, the wives of Baronets and Knight-Baronets, if they were commoners and not daughters of peers, would be called Lady _surname_ (like Lady Lucas of _P&P_ ), but never Lady _firstname._ By contrast an Earl's daughter who marries a Baronet ( as in the case of Lady Catherine who married Sir Lewis de Bourgh in _P&P_ ) or a gentleman ( Lady Anne who married Old Mr. Darcy) would still be called as Lady _first name,_ but never as Lady _surname._ So Mr. Darcy's aunt is always called either _Lady Catherine_ or _Lady Catherine de Bourgh_ and never as _Lady de Bourgh,_ while his mother is called _Lady Anne_ or _Lady Anne Darcy_ and never as _Lady Darcy,_ as they inherit their titles from their father and not their husbands. A bit tricky this whole Lord-Lady thing, I say.. 🤔
In P&P 1995 adaptation, they made this mistake where Mrs. Reynolds, the housekeeper, refers to Mr. Darcy's mom simply as Mrs. Darcy! How offensive that might have sounded to them! 😀
It is so complex! Apparently too complex for that P&P housekeeper! 😂 I never noticed that before but it’s so true!
I wonder if they might have done that to not confuse their audience, as people would wonder why Darcy isn't a lord if his mother has a title
I'd like to be a baron cos it kinda sounds like a villain title.
Baron does sound rather ominous. lol.
Sean Bailey I know where to get a British lord or baron titles
Ellie Dashwood like Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.
I don't really use my title as much but I'm a baroness
It sounds like a villain title because a lot of writers in the past have decided to make their villains, especially in superhero stories, barons. I wonder why...
Earl for me. It's the Germanic term for Count, which originally referred to someone who has jurisdiction over a county, which is the absolute most responsibility I'd be comfortable with. The easiest way to think about your mother's question is that Earl of Grantham is a job held by a man named Robert Crawley. It's just... not a particularly demanding job by the time that Downton Abbey takes place.
Nice video. Maybe an honorable (there's that word again) mention for women who held these titles in their own rights and not through marriage would be cool. Currently, a knighthood given to a woman makes her a dame + first name. As for women holding titles from the peerage system in their own right, there are historical examples of this, but not many. (Of course, life peerages make the current situation very different.)
That’s true! If I ever make a sequel to this video I should include that!
Order of precedence was legally enforceable in England during the Regency era. So in "Persuasion," Ann Elliot is more relaxed about her status as the daughter of a baronet while her younger sister, Mary, is much more tenacious about maintaining her right of precedence over even her own mother-in-law.
I am from Australia and have learned more in your video than any school level 🙄
Love hearing you go through all these things. Trial by your peers (think peerage) was an important social distinction. Forget chatty and gossipy, the peerage literally stuck together (by marriage, schooling, etc) so people were more likely not to be convicted. That definitely needed to change. Knights and baronets are the gentry ie they had land and were considered gentlefolk. I'm not sure what title I'd want. Maybe a duchy as I think that suggests I'm probably descended from royalty.
Nice selection! And it’s true, they definitely stuck together!
Being tried by people who knew you was not always an advantage. When Earl Ferrers was tried for murdering his steward, in 1760, it did not help him that his peers were well aware of his violent temper. They convicted him and that led to the exercise of another lordly privilege - being hanged with a silk rope.
The wife of a marquis is pronounced MARSH-ON-ESS.
Baronets are sometimes dismissed as small fry because a baronetcy is the lowest hereditary title. However, some baronets belonged to ancient landed families and owned very large estates. Moreover, baronets were (and are) often linked by marriage to people with higher titles, including some of the grandest families in the land. For example, in 1797 a baronet named Sir John Menzies married Lady Charlotte Murray, the eldest daughter of the Duke of Atholl, whereas the first wife of the Duke of Roxburghe (another contemporary of Jane Austen) was the daughter of a baronet. Moreover, the 13th Duke of Argyll is the maternal grandson of a baronet.
Finally, some untitled country gentlemen sometimes married the daughters of aristocrats. For example, in the late 1720s Thomas Robinson (who was subsequently made a baronet) married a daughter of the Earl of Carlisle.
Those are all great points!
@@EllieDashwood Hi Ellie. Thanks. In Pride and Prejudice Mr Darcy is of course an example of someone who is part gentry and part aristocracy. Moreover, in real life the Royal Family also have links to the landed gentry. For instance, one of the queen's great-grandmothers was the daughter of an untitled country gentleman: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisa_Cavendish-Bentinck
Now you need to explain "Duke of Earl." (And you need some backup singers to do that.) smiles
If you are interested, the Duke of Argyle is the only person in the UK (except the monarch) who is allowed to have his own army. He does have one, but it's only part-time and ceremonial in nature.
My married last name is Duque which is Spanish for duke. Some coworkers liked to jokingly call me Duchess. It was fun and I'd chose that title since I'm already used to being called Duchess. Same as you Ellie, not to keen on the "your Grace" but it's part of the package
Thanks to this video and some of the comments, i actually managed to learn more about Noble titles than i initially thought i would,thank you ..
The funniest thing is the courtesy title given to wives of Dukes' and Marquesses' non-firstborn sons (i.e. the sons that have the courtesy title Lord FirstName LastName). These ladies are known as Lady Husband'sFirstName LastName, or in everyday interactions simply as Lady Husband'sFirstName. So, for example, Winston Churchill's mother was Lady Randolph Churchill (or Lady Randolph in everyday interactions), since her husband, Lord Randolph Churchill, was a younger son of the Duke of Marlborough. Another important point is that if a woman who has the title of Lady by virtue of being the daughter of a peer marries a man who is not a peer, she will still customarily use her title, rather than being Mrs X. So, in Downton Abbey for example, when Lady Mary Crawley marries Mr Henry Talbot, she is known as Lady Mary Talbot, and is never referred to as Mrs Talbot.
Those are all important points!
In Spanish Dame is "Dama", so to me, it sounds very romantic in English because in Spanish it's a very formal address towards a woman.
Great job. I knew 90% of everything you said but I did learn a couple things which I am greatly appreciative of.
Yay! I’m so glad it was helpful. 😃
Good video. Note: the correct pronunciation of "marquess" is ['mɑr.kwɪs] (~"máhr-kwiss") and the female equivalent "marchioness" is [mɑr.ʃə.'nɛs] (~"mahr-shuh-néss"). Also, the given example "Baron of Southwick" could not exist because holders of the two lowest-ranking peerages, viscountcies and baronies, are always just "Vicount X" and "Baron X" (never " Viscount of X" or "Baron of X" (except for a few rarely-used exceptions in the Scottish peerage)), so a true example could be "Baron Southwick." Conversely, holders of the two highest-ranking peerages, dukedoms and marquessates, are always "Duke of X" and "Marquess of X" (never just "Duke X" or "Marquess X"). Holders of earldoms can be either- "Earl of X" or just "Earl X" In addition, peers had even longer full titles that were used only in writing on official correspondence and documents and when formally announced: dukes are "the most noble X, Duke of X," marquesses are "the most honorable X, Marquess of X," earls, viscounts, and barons are all "the right honorable X, Earl of X/Viscount X/Baron X." For example, the full title of the main character in the show Downton Abbey is "The right honorable Robert Crawley, Earl of Grantham." One other thing regarding courtesy titles- they applied to widows also- first, a woman whose deceased husband was a peer can continue to fully use her title she gained through that marriage- until it is acquired by someone else- most often her eldest son's wife. Thereafter, the woman can still use the title as a courtesy, but the word "dowager" is added before it. An example of this is in Downton Abbey as well- Violet Crawley (Maggie Smith's character), was the "Countess of Grantham" as the wife of the 6th earl. She used that title until her son, Robert, the 7th earl, got married. His new wife- the rich American, Cora Levinson, became Cora Crawley, Countess of Grantham and Violet became the " Dowager Countess of Grantham."
That was a great sum-up.
Thank you.
@@suonatar1 You're welcome. I am actually an American but I love history and learning about British/European culture (and I watch a lot of period dramas!), so I happen to know a lot about stuff like this- even more than some Brits! ;-)
Or she cold be violet , countess of Grantham , Kate is the duchess of Cambridge, not Kate, duchess of Cambridge
@@paulwillock3189 I'm not sure I understand the point you are making with your reply... Yes, as I wrote above, that character could be referred to as "Violet, Countess of Grantham" and actually I believe it would be fine to refer to the Duchess of Cambridge as "Kate, Duchess of Cambridge"- although that would be quite informal- she is more correctly called "Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge" (but also often (informally) called "Princess Kate").
My point is that Christian name before the title denotes the they are either divorced or widowed , the current duchess has a The and doesn’t need a name until she is a widow
Thanks to this video I have a deeper understanding of the first chapter of Persuasion. Thank you Ellie!
I enjoyed watching several of your videos, yesterday. Thanks!
A related topic you didn't address was Irish lords. Maybe you skipped over it as a needless complication... In case you didn't allow a brief introduction.
Scotland had its own Peerage. Ireland had its own Peerage, its own Irish House of Lords (and its own Irish House of Commons). Historically accurate movies and book covers, that showed a Union Jack flag prior to 1800, showed one missing the diagonal red lines that represent Ireland. In 1800 Ireland was officially merged into the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack we know today came into use.
The Prime Ministers who led Great Britain, and the United Kingdom, during the long war against Napoleon used every tool at their disposal to conduct that fight. That included handing out honours, like knighthoods, even to friendly mayors. And it included recommending the creation of new peerages. Heroic leaders, like Wellington, got some. Political cronies got some too.
Political cronies, who didn't rate a title in the Peerage of Great Britain might be satisfied with an Irish peerage. You got to call yourself an Earl,, or a Baron.
Forty years ago, decades pre-internet, my parents counted on me to pick up new nautical fiction novels, at a very large bookstore in downtown Toronto, that was a block away from the intercity bus terminal. It had the pretentious name "The World's Biggest Bookstore. It was actually large. 3 storeys tall, and a footprint larger than a football field - maybe 2 or 3 football fields.
We'd already read all CS Forester's 11 Hornblower novels, when I picked up a couple of Patrick O'Brian's novels. We liked them. Back in those pre-internet days it was difficult to research an author. But the clerks there let me look at their most recent copy of "Books in Print". A quarterly book, larger than a big old style phonebook. And, in 1979, I found that Patrick O'Brian's first book was published in the 1930s!
Yipes! There was no way he would live long enough to write many more novels! He had written just five of his Aubrey-Maturin novels at that time. What you might not know is that several of his fine novels had a couple of chapters of Jane Austen inspired socializing in English country houses prior to the naval expedition.
One of the characters in the fourth novel, "The Mauritius Command", is a Lord Clonfert, an Irish Lord. And, in some painless exposition, O'Brian explains how being an Irish Lord was much less significant after the Act of Union, as the Irish House of Lords was superseded.
I think you mentioned the Duke of Wellington. You may know that Wellington had older brothers, including his older brother, Richard, the Earl of Mornington. The title Earl of Mornington was only an Irish title. Richard had been given a title in the Peerage of Great Britain - only a Baron, but it let him sit in the House of Lords of Great Britain, prior to the Act of Union.
Richard had been Governor of General of India, for several years, in the late 1790s. Nepotism, he took two of his younger brothers with him. One younger brother was his private secretary. His younger brother Arthur, the Army officer, came with him, was made a General. So, he got to be a General, but only in the Indian army, though the influence of his older brother Richard. But his Indian victories were his own work.
Atlantic Magazine had a series of brief articles on when famous people first met. I remember reading the one about when the young Beatles met the (young) Diana Ross and the Supremes. (They were disappointed because the Supremes were dressed up in Jackie Kennedy inspired outfits, not Motown outfits)
The other one I remember is the very interesting sole meeting of Lord Nelson, a notable braggart, and Arthur, who was not yet a famous peer. They were waiting in an official waiting room, for official meetings. Nelson, the Nation's hero, a Vice Admiral, goes over to a relatively young General he had never seen before, and starts bragging, and is frustrated and put out that the laconic young General does not fawn over him, like just about everyone else. Lots of Generals were not even the veterans of a single battle. Frustrated Nelson steps out, and commentators figure he asked someone, "Who the F... is that that laconic so-and-so, who isn't sucking up to me, the hero of half a dozen victories": ...only to be informed that Sir Arthur Wellesley, just returned from India, was also the hero of his own victories - in India.
Sir Arthur Wellesley was put in charge of the relatively small British Forces in Iberia in, um, 1809(?), and started outsmarting an out-manoeuvring Napoleon's Generals. His victories earned him titles, a Baronage, lesser titles, Spanish and Portuguese titles, and eventually a Dukedom. So, he ended up considerably outranking his older brother.
Both brothers were entitled to sit in the House of Lords. You mentioned that there are, currently 24 Dukedoms. When Wellington was made a Duke there were only eight Dukedoms more senior than his. He chose to be Lord Wellington, because he couldn't be Lord Wellesley, as his older brother was already Lord Wellesley.
Back in those pre-internet days I consulted my University's library. Back in the 1790ish period there were just 92 lords sitting in the House of Lords
Eventually, the diplomat brother, who had been Richard's Private Secretary was made a Baron, so there were three brothers in the House of Lords. A fourth brother, also a diplomat, was also rewarded with a Barony. The remaining brother, who lived to adulthood, who was the one who went into the clergy, was made a bishop. Four brothers, all sitting in the House of Lords, at the same time - I bet that was unprecedented.
Richard's line came to an end, as he fathered all his children with his mistress, and they were, technically, bastards. Brother number 2 inherited the Earl of Mornington title, the Irish title. His line died out, too, so today's Duke of Wellington is also Earl of Mornington, among half a dozen other titles.
The son of the baby brother, the second Baron Cowley, was ALSO a diplomat, and earned a step to being an Earl, and that line also continues to the present day.
I'm struggling to find O'Brian's books in my language. I've only found two first of the series (one in pdf). I could try to look for an english edition, but the nautical language can be tough.
I love Aubrey and Maturin, and their friendship 😍
I have always wondered about the ranking of the different titles. Thank you VERY much for his easy to follow explanation!
I love her accent and her English, btw English is not my maternal language that’s why I like how she speaks!!!
Aw! Thank you! 😃
Thank you Ellie! As a historical novelist, this helped me SO much.
This was such an interesting and informative video! Thank you.
Thank you for this! I had sooo many questions while reading classics
Yay! I’m so glad it was helpful! 😃😃
This was really helpful, thank you! I’m researching my ancestry and have some knights and baronets among my ancestors so this was really useful for understanding what that actually means.
so I'm hanging out at a dive bar in the SF Bay Area near where I live, and end up meeting up with and later on hooking up with a woman in her late 20's... the day after while eating breakfast she casually lets me know that her father was the late David Carnegie 14th Earl of Northesk ... making her a "Lady" ..go figure ..
Wow! That is so cool!
A true " lady " as she styled herself , was full if it .number one . the title given her father was given to him as a singular title . in other words , his and his alone . it was NOT awarded as or intended to be an IINHERITED title . the " lady " in question was not awarded the title herself and neither was she created a " lady " . second , a true lady would never name drop in the fashion she did as it would be considered " bad form " and embarrassing to the family . third , and I truly hope it isn't the case , there are many titles lying about in various countries from families that have died out with no one to inheret or have surrendered their title or put it up for sale as a one time title . if you buy one of these you find you have no privileges , no seat in parliament , no rich estate , in fact all you have is a piece of paper saying you are lord so and so and that is all . and no , you don't get to meet the queen .
@@howardwayne3974 well, all that no with standing .. she was known as a Lady in what few British press articles I was. able to google about her... and she was by no means a poser nor a name dropper... I extracted the info from her on the 2nd day... she never once brought it up when I first met her and the condition she was in was such that she had EVERY reason to bring it up .. and yet she didn't.
@@howardwayne3974 daughters of earls are titled "Lady" first name. I couldn't resist looking this up. After her dad died the title went to an eighth cousin, because her only brother killed himself. Sad.
@@annbsirius1703 true , so very sad . strange how the upper classes no matter the nationality have a habit of popping themselves off ( one way or another ) . in the old days it was fir the honor if the family or the regiment .
Thank you this was wonderful!
The reason the nobility had the right to be tried by the House of Lords was that Magna Carta (I think it was Magna Carta) promised the right to trial by your peers. your equals. And us plebs aren't the peers of peers.
I understand that in England a noble was not required to marry a noble while in Germany they were. The woman loses the title when if she marries a non noble, or at least her children would.
That's like Prince Harry's child it was expected that he would be called The Earl of Dumbarton one of Harry's lesser titles but he does not want him to have a title but when Charles becomes king he could technically use the title of Prince as the grandson of a king
That's like Princess Anne. She turned down titles for her kids.
@Susan L H no Anne did not. The titles don’t pass through female line (beyond few Scottish ones she doesn’t have) So she doesn’t have title she could pass on. Her husband could have accepted a title upon marriage that his son could have inherited after his death however.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 Yes, Princess Anne did. Heredity is not the only way a royal can end up with a title. The Queen can and has offered titles to her descendents as she did to Princess Anne's husband and children. Princess Anne turned these down ... as did Prince Harry when he chose not to pass one of hs titles to his son. A general google search will throw up many articles about Princess Anne's decision such as www.thesun.co.uk/news/14286161/why-zara-tindall-peter-phillips-not-have-titles/
Archie could only use the title of Prince if Charles gives him that title. He would be entitled to confer the title if he wanted to, but he wants to slim down the Monarchy, and Harry and his family are outsiders now because that's what they chose.
@@sarasamaletdin4574 sorry Susan was right, you are not.
the Queen did make Anne an offer.
Princess Anne refused, however, choosing to allow her children to live their lives without the honours later afforded to their cousins.
They are free to request a title if they choose.
Anne's son Peter became the first of the Queen's grandchildren to marry in 2008, to Autumn Phillips, the Queen offered him an Earldom to celebrate - but he turned it down.
Not all lords are peers either. There are alot of old titles that are still perfectly legal to have as status and in your name as well as access to clubs and parties. These titles used to be seated to lands during the medieval period. All of those are possible to buy as well, but aren't expensive. These titles don't allow you to sit in the lords though.
But do you really want to party with a lord? ....maybe
I would either one to be a marquee
or have the courtesy title as the younger son of a Duke.
Kate superceed the princesses Eugenie and Beatrice when she is with William but they superceed her when she is alone. Earl comes from old English which is the equivalent of the germanic title of count .
Another followup, related to the Duke of Wellington, and marriage in this period. Are you familiar with Georgiana Fane? You might find her story adds to the whole complexity of courting, in our favourite period.
Georgiana Fane was an hieress who turned down proposals in her early twenties, and was entirely focussed on the much older Duke of Wellington. He wrote letters to her mother, when he was an elderly man, pleading with her to talk some sense to Georgiana, when she was a middle-aged stalker.
Cheers!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiana_Fane
That's interesting.
Dame is a german Word for an elegant woman. Possibly one of noblesse, but in the daily life it is also just a polite way to refer to a woman. The noble women are called Freiherrin, Gräfin, Baronin, Fürstin and Prinzessin.
Wow, that’s complicated!
Diana Princess of Wales' brother is known.as Charles Earl Spencer, he's a peer being that he inherited the title when their father passed away in 1992. I believe his oldest son is known as Lord Althrop. Before marrying Prince Charles, Diana was Lady Diana Spencer and before there two older sisters married, they were known as Lady Jane and Lady Sarah Spencer. Diana and her siblings were from a aristocratic background, they grew up at Althrop House which 8s where the current Earl lives and upon the grounds where Diana's final resting place is. Fun fact, Diana's maternal grandmother was confident and a lady in waiting to the Queen Mum, fun fact #2 : Diana and former US Sec. of State Colin Powell are related , they have a common Spencer ancestor who owned a plantation in Jamaica, Colin Powell's parents were from Jamaica.
FF#3: Princes William and Harry are distantly related to Winston Churchill through their mom, Winston Churchill and Diana are descendants from different branches of the Spencer-Churchhill family, the branch the great British Prime Minister was from has a long line of the Dukes of Marborough which continues today.
That’s super interesting! It’s amazing all the people who are related!
Also Diana was descended from two of Charles II's illegitimate sons, so Prince William will be the first King descended from Charles II.
I would be a marchioness, just because the title isn't as well known (on this side of the pond) as duchess or countess, and sounds impressive. 👸 I would insist on being addressed as Your Machionessness.
Thank you very much for the beautiful explanation
Great video! I would be a duchess. Thanks for explaining this. Quite enjoyable.
Thank you! 💖
Dear Miss Dashwood,
You do a lovely job here. I am a British person and I am also interested in these titles! I think that marquess is pronounced markwiss. The plural is markwisses. The wife of a marquess is a marchioness pronounced marshioness.
The title of Dame is new. Please see below:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dame
You do a wonderful work here. Thank you.
Mrs Elizabeth Darley
Yorkshire
Great Britain🌹
In some instances, the title of a peer can be inherited through a daughter. An example is John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough had no sons, and only two surviving daughters. An act of the English parliament in 1706 allowed the 1st Duke's daughters to inherit his English titles. Following his death in 1722, Lady Godolphin became suo jure Duchess of Marlborough.
Love the dress :)
Tarzan was a Viscount :)
Now I wish I was a Baron. Nice work.
Thanks Baron! 😃😂
@@EllieDashwood dawww, you're welcome. King Lear brought me here. Lots of titles...
I always wonder about the prefix Fitz? I read where it was given to the illegitimate children of the king.
Peers can be a political appointment and the tile dies with your death, a life peer then there is the hereditary peers, the title remains in the family, peers in ordinary is another level
Even today alot of British peers (hereditary not life) have more than one title, therefore until the current incumbent of the main title (Grandfather, father etc) dies the eldest son of every generation gets a courtesy (most dukedoms and marches usually have 2 or 3 lesser titles associated with them).
Also, when addressing an envelope to a Marquess or Marchioness you put prefix the words 'The Most Honourable' before the title (you only do this when addressing an envelope though, not in the actual letter or in speech). Similarly when addressing envelopes to an EVB (Earl, Viscount or Baron) you prefix the words 'The Right Honourable' before the title.
Baronetcy aren't generally seen as peerages due to the fact (with the exception of a few 1st degree or 2nd degree courtesy baronets) that unlike other ps bts can be bought off the crown (I believe they cost around £5,000)
Well done on creating such an informative video. I think I'd want to be an earl! Not that I ever could be as they stopped creating new titles about 50 years ago. Failing that I'd happily have a great big mansion instead.
Thanks!
Aw!!! Thank you! I’m so glad you enjoyed it! 😃
Followup to my comment on Irish lords and the Duke of Wellington. Wellington and his brothers and sister were born in Ireland. His father and eldest brother held a title in the Irish peerage. But he did not consider himself to be Irish, or even Anglo-Irish. His comment on this was something like "Being born in a stable doesn't make one a Horse".
Sir Martyn Poliakoff CBE was recently knighted. He is a professor of chemistry at the University of Nottingham and appears on RUclips in Periodic Videos, short videos on various elements in the periodic table. Brady, who makes the videos, generally addresses him as "Professor"
In the Lord Peter Whimsey novels, Lord Peter I'd the second son of a duke. His older brother is the Duke of Denver, aka Duke Whimsey. His son is Lord St. George. Is that a spare title his dad is letting him use?
I'd like to be a countess because I like the way it sounds the most 😅
Ahah! I found it 😄 So if Colonel Fitzwilliam wasn't a colonel/in the military, then he would have been "the Honourable Mr. [First name] Fitzwilliam.
As the name Richard is quite popular for him, he'd be "the Honourable Mr. Richard Fitzwilliam." I think Colonel Fitzwilliam sounds better then 😄
I always thought that the children it was the eldest who got the last name so I'd be miss champ an but my sister would be miss isobrl to show who was older
You're right! I talk about that in this video: ruclips.net/video/WNyexfFz768/видео.html
Love you girl💕💕💕
I would want to be a Countess.
Rosa Maria Sanlate Marry a Earl
Rosa Maria Sanlate that’s peerage you can get get baron and below on a site I know of pm me
First catch your Earl....
thus channel is too underated.
You should have way more subs than you do. Super helpful.
My paternal grandmother is the daughter of a Portuguese aristocrat. But given that she was a girl and married a commoner (and foreigner), this meant she lost her title upon her marriage. My dad has a first cousin who is a Count as he inherited the title eventually.
Would be fascinating if you could do a video on nobility from other countries and how it all compared! Thanks
@10:58 Historical Example: The 1st Duke of Wellington's family name was Wellesley.
i love to see your passion in these things, you are sweet and i hope you will find a duke, possibly harry when he is devorced what I expect.
I always wondered what made someone a Baron after watching Ever After !
What would the (younger) sons of Earls, Viscounts and Barons be called in everyday speech?
Maybe you can help me figure out what's going on with the Osbornes in "The Watsons." Jane Austen introduces them at the ball thusly: "After some minutes of extraordinary bustle without, and watchful curiosity within, the important party, preceded by the attentive master of the inn to open a door which was never shut, made their appearance. They consisted of Lady Osborne; her son, Lord Osborne; her daughter, Miss Osborne; Miss Carr, her daughter's friend; Mr. Howard, formerly tutor to Lord Osborne, now clergyman of the parish in which the castle stood; Mrs. Blake, a widow sister, who lived with him; her son, a fine boy of ten years old; and Mr. Tom Musgrave, who probably, imprisoned within his own room, had been listening in bitter impatience to the sound of music for the last half-hour. In their progress up the room they paused almost immediately behind Emma to receive the compliments of some acquaintance, and she heard Lady Osborne observe that they had made a point of coming early for the gratification of Mrs. Blake's little boy, who was uncommonly fond of dancing. Emma looked at them all as they passed, but chiefly and with most interest on Tom Musgrave, who was certainly a genteel, good-looking young man. Of the females, Lady Osborne had by much the finest person; though nearly fifty, she was very handsome, and had all the dignity of rank." SO HERE'S WHAT I CAN'T FIGURE OUT. What is Lord Osborne?? He has inherited the title since his father is dead, but what I don't get is, if the father had been an Earl, then his sister should be Miss + First Name, not Miss + Last Name! And if their father had been an Earl, wouldn't Osborne be the name of the title and not the family name?? It's so confusing! Did Jane Austen make one of her rare mistakes??
Apparently some titles return to the Crown when the holder dies rather than pass to an heir.
A good example of a fictional Baronet is Sir Leicester Deadlock in Dickens' Bleak House. Always addressed as "Sir Leicester Deadlock, Baronet" by Inspector Bucket. Is he being very correct, or sarcastic?
I suspect the inspector is merely being very formal.
i know this just would not have been a thing back then at all, but i’m really curious about what would have happened if for example a duke married another man…
would they just both be dukes? I know it would absolutely not have happened I’m just kinda curious lmao
I named my dining room table Earl because it cost more than my car
😂😂😂
I would have wanted to be a marchioness (btw, it's pronounced as "MARSH-o-ness," and marquess is pronounced "MAR-KWESS") because they are so rare apart from the courtesy title granted to a duke's eldest son's wife.
Please come back!
I would be His Grace, The Duke of ... , Marquess of ...... Earl of .. & Baron [ The Peer among peers] with Dukes especially it was often the case that they possessed an entire list of Titles in the Peerage
How about the Russian nobility system? I'm still kind of confused how Prince Myshkin gets to be a prince.
I think the Russian titles were just like the German ones, meaning that (unlike in France or the UK) every single child of a baron is a baron / baroness, every single child of a prince is a prince / princess or something like that (and maye every grandchild, and greatgrandchild and so on). I'm not hundred percent sure, but I think that, basically, the title is easier to get and pass on to your descendants (but again, I'm not sure it's true)
I recall reading in a Lord Peter Wimsey novel--totally different time period, of course--that Lord Peter's new wife was impressed that villager knew to call her Lady Peter. What's the story on that?
I don't remember who Lord Peter's father was, but let's pretend he was a Duke. The eldest son would use one of his father's titles. Younger sons and daughters would have courtesy titles of "Lord/Lady FirstName". Wives of the younger sons would be called "Lady Husband'sFirstName". Daughters just retained their own courtesy "Lady Firstname" if they married someone of lesser rank. The wife in Upstairs Downstairs, if I recall, was "Lady Firstname" although her husband was a mere Mr. Lastname. I think she was daughter of an Earl. Hope that helps.
@@Auriaux Yeah, the book is _Busman's Honeymoon._ (*Not* the one to start with.) Lord Peter is the younger brother of the Duke of Denver. And upon being introduced to his common-born bride, the village woman addresses her as "Lady Peter" rather than "Lady Harriet" -- without prompting, showing that she knows some of the ins and outs of this stuff.
As opposed to Peter's sister, who remains "Lady Mary" [blanking.on.last.name] after _her_ marriage.
In another novel, Peter's brother is on trial for murder. In the House of Lords, because he has to be tried by a jury of _his_ peers, literally!
I have a question:
Supposing an Earl that has no sibling and only has 1 child which happens to be a daughter and that daughter marries let's say Duke or an Earl and eventually has 2 kids both boys what happens to the Grandfather Earl's title does it get passed down to the 2nd son? because the 1st son will inherit his father's title? Or will the 1st son get both titles?
I think the title will sort of die.. daughters couldn't inherit titles. The next male in line would have inherited it.
Nice video, I really love your channel, I was loking for a channel like yours and I found it.
I have just one question what is "lordship"? I remember lord Grantham being called like that in downtown abbey.
Aw, thank you! Lordship is just a word someone would use to address or talk about a Lord. So, like how someone would say about the Queen, "Her Majesty wants tea." Someone would say about a Lord, "His Lordship wants tea."
Titles are of either of England, Scotland, Great Britain or Ireland as well. Also, the older the nobleman title, his son and hair's title is lowered. For example, the Dukedom of Norfolk is the oldest English Dukedom. His son isn't a Marquess, he is the Earl of Arundel. Likewise for the oldest Scottish Dukedom. The Duke of Hamilton's son is Lord Clydesdale. The Duke of Richmond's son is the Earl of Kinvara.
Who takes president can get sticky. What if a Barony was created in, say, 1478, and a Dukedom was created in, say, 1750. The Dukedom ranks higher, but the Barony is older. Who takes residence, the Baron or the Duke? In some instances, the Baron will. Other issues have to be taken into consideration such as age of the holders if the title
One of My ancestors held the title of Count. So, unfortunately, I would hold that title by default. Not that I mind - I have some great peers... Count Falco, Count Cagliostro, Count Alucard (Spell it Backwards).
If you were the first son of a Duke, would you automatically be a Marquess once your born. Or do you have to go in order like earl,Viscount
You would be your father’s next highest title. So a Duke would more than likely have more than one title that he owns. He lets his oldest son use the second highest one, whatever that is. And generally very young children would still use their names until they hit a more mature age where they’d start using a title.
I am descended from a Irish Baron who also held the title of a English Earl.
D po they have any special kind of benefits or something??
Wives of Barons are known as "The Lady (of)* (insert family/house name)". Baronesses are those who hold a Barony on their own right.
*- "of" sometimes dropped
Edit: I'm wrong. Wives of Barons can be called Baronesses too. However, women who hold the title in their own right solely call themselves "Baronesses" not "Lady"
The Duke of Westminster is single if you're still looking. He's the richest Duke in the UK and he's not bad looking!
I always wondered why Sir William Lucas's family was kinda poor and is was considered "Ok" for Charlotte to marry a rector. Honestly glad I'm American and don't have to live in this system, bur it's interesting none the less!
It really is super intriguing! And yes, living back then in P&P times would have not been actually that fun. 🤔
Because Mr Collins was the heir of Longbourne..
I really enjoyed the video. Here's a question for ya. Why is the duchess of Cambridge not referred as "princess" would like to know the answer to that one. Thanks
Because the title of prince or princess can only be inherited. Technically the wives of princes are considered princesses, but they aren't referred as such. Hence Princess Anne and Princess Charlotte are referred to as princesses+first name, but Katherine is referred to by her husband's second highest title - duke. Also, lady Diana wasn't a princess either, she was a lady by birth because her father was an earl. After her marriage she was mistakenly referred to as "princess Diana", because her husband had the title of prince of Wales (which is a title of heir apparent). So she was princess of Wales, but lady *first name* can only be used for princesses by blood.
The titles are about territory. An Earl of wherever was, in the middle ages, under the monarch, responsible for that area.
don't forget if you have a title or your Duke you could be invited to the Queen's coronation if you go and watch the one from 1953 you'll see them during the ceremony taking off their hats and what not
Good video 🙂
Glad you enjoyed it 😃😃😃
What books would you recommend for learning more about these titles?
Inner peace - balance life
- Good for health
I love Downtown Abbey. I have always wondered why Robert and Cora Crawley were called Lord and Lady Grantham. Why not Lord and Lady Downton? Is it because the region they live in is called Grantham? Also I know you're into classic literature but I thought the study of Downton Abbey and the culture during those times would be an excellent addition to your podcast.
I mean.... If I could pick a title... It would be Queen. Aim high!
This is not related to this video but I have a question. My father always says that I'm a hopeless romantic. I have a general idea of what it means but what does it really mean?
I think when people say hopeless romantic they mean someone who remains positive and doesn't stop believing in the beauty, truth, and importance of love no matter what! That's just me though! lol.
That's so cute.. so innocent ..
Coincidentally, I've just finished Downton Abbey 😊