I would really like it if we could break the "judeo-christian" narrative and have a jews vs christians episode. Christians love to use "judeo-christian" to explain Christian beliefs that don't at all represent Judaism.
@@YoYoWaddupBro Your defensiveness speaks volumes. For anyone reading this thread, look into memory holed topics such as: The deliberate attack on the USS Liberty. The Lavon Affair. The LA Weisberg Scandal. The "'Catholic"' Immigration League. The Lawyers Guild (and their funders). The child trafficking rings owned and run by the IDF operating in South America after Ukraine got too much State Department attention in the early '10s. The connection between Jeffrey Epstein and the **ws who control the computer system used by federal law enforcement. And last, but certainly not least, the people who ran the FTX scam and where that money was funneled.
@@GENGreat job moderating. Just curious why you guys were bringing up statistics and definitions for the ex-mormon side, but non for the Mormon side? It seemed one sided due to that.
@@aluf2567as a non-mormon, there wasn't really a point in the video where the mormon side brought up a statistic or jargon word needing further explanation or understanding. the non-mormon side mentioned a specific passage without quoting in full, so showing the quote on screen helped contextualise the interpretation from both ends for me as someone unfamiliar with the passage being discussed. Was there an instance you felt needed on-screen contextualisation from the mormon side?
It's very telling that the one mormon woman here is even able to recognize the gender issues in the church. Only the mormon men said no, and even when they gave the mormon woman a chance to speak, they werent really hearing her.
@@OntheOtherHandVideos From the way he spoke about it, it sounded more like his fulfillment comes from completing tasks placed on him by the church rather than something that would just come naturally to him.
@@tefanyharward6614 is he bi or just gay? Cause if he’s just gay, does it not hurt to think that he may not be sexually attracted to you? I don’t ask this to hurt your feelings, just genuinely curious because this is a very unique situation. I am an ex mormon btw
Probably because he's a moral person with a conscience and a brain. Cardon seems like the human being equivalent of a flaming brown bag on your doorstep.
@@FWWillis Not being able to have biological children with a homosexual partner is pretty hard. We are kind of hard coded to want to have kids of our own.
That guy in the suit is honestly the scariest part of the church for me, the way he stared down the Mormon girl after saying it’s not equal is horrifying
@@brynnaandersen7739Cardon has proven himself to be very disingenuous and borderline hateful in his rhetoric about people who leave the church. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's his word that he was clipped out of context and that's worth very little to me
A lot of emotional gaslighting is typical in religious institutions. Oh, you're gay and suicidal because we say you're sinful? At least you don't have leukemia and I've more reasons to be emotional.
“I got a question for you girls” is a great summation of Cardon’s apathy toward what women actually desire, to be treated like equal adults… not “girls”
Yeah they need to call us Lords and we call them ladies. We need to remove guys, boys, dudes, chaps, blokes, bros, for boys and girls, gals, chicks, misses, sister from our vocabulary and use more sophisticated titles like Men Lord, your highness, Dukes, Misters, Masters for men and Women, Ladies, Your Highness, Madame, Dames, and Mistresses for women. Then none of us would feel infantile.
Gotta look at it more literally. Def of cult: a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. So when you show up to choir/ and or band. You are devoting those hours towards your instrument. Now the def of religion has many meanings, but Some people do devote that time religiously😂 but it’s their craft.
@@TryingToFindSumyeah, lots of things are cults. People don’t call them cults however because that word is now associated with negative connotations. The word almost has two meanings now
@@scottvance74 If a Native American came to a discussion on Native Americans using traditional Native American attire, would you see a problem with that?
@@Mr-Thou Cardon does at least two programs. In his one about mormonism (Ward Radio), he wears a t-shirt. In his one about pest control (an outside, messy job), he wears a white shirt and tie. I just find it odd how he dresses differently for these two audiences.
I pushed myself to watch their podcast reaction to the video and it was excruciating, they were so condescending, kept only referring to Jillian as “green shirt girl” or the lesbian. It was gross.
The way Bella speaks is so indicative of what it’s like being a woman in the church. She was the most soft spoken, a lot of nervousness despite her bravery to speak up. Anyone closely familiar with the church would recognize her ‘missionary voice’ frequently coming in
Totally disagree. That could be her personality. It could be a family thing. I was never taught to be quiet as a member. I say what I what I want and I'm never ashamed.
I love how when the ex Mormons answer they have a perfect straight forward simple argument and the Mormons have to go through a million mental gymnastics and rationalizations
Yes, nailed it! And having leukemia is no different than having leukemia in the church, probably easier in the church just because of the community help, depending on one's ward of course.
The entire standing of the Mormon's is, "Well that's not just our problem, everyone does this" while also saying "This is the one true Church and we have all the truth." You can't be different and better when you are the same.
@@FrankskinOrweed-ep4ij Not sure what you being Catholic and disagreeing with the Catholic church has to do with the Mormons stating other people do something while also stating the church is true and all the truth is there. Just doesn't have anything to do with the statement.
Rather than being critical, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure by him saying 'used to be gay' he was referring to living an actively gay lifestyle.
26:05 When he called the women ‚girls‘ someone should have called him out. It’s horrendous how he clearly doesn’t see women as equal in any capacity and only enforces and exerts his own authority.
Wtf are you talking about, you must not be from utah or maybe even the US. Its common in the US to refer to a group of women as girls, and also to refer to a group of men as boys, regardless of age. "What do you boys want" "what are you girls up to" is appropriate to say to men and women
Interesting that this guys says, “ I have a question for you “girls.” Was his way of lowering their status by not calling these woman clearly adults the title as girls. He would never say to these men, “I have a question for you boys.” His view is very clear.
Normally I wouldn't think much of someone saying "girls" in that context since I refer to me and my friends as "me and the boys" without any demeaning behind it. But Cardon's attitude towards the women in the panel paired with how Mormonism structurally treats women gives me reason to think you're correct.
exactly! I started screaming “women!!! women!!!” at my screen. He doesn’t know he’s doing it but He KNOWSS he is doing something that has worked. Women are infantalized by the men of the church. Head patted, “There there, now go on. hush,”
Yup. In addition, when extending his “olive branch,” he said something to the effect of “I understand why you’d want to see more women up there, it’s fun to watch a movie where the superheroes look like you!” A less than subtle manipulation to make their arguments look childish and to dismiss them.
@@w0ody16 Exactly, there's nothing inherently wrong with it but in that context with everything he'd said prior and the Mormon Church's views, he doesn't see them as equals at all.
Yeah but the bible lays out roles for the people in the church. So if women want roles that the bible doesn't say they can have then guess what? They want you to rewrite the Bible that is literally the only thing that can mean.
They also only had 1 female on that side. It would have been nice if more women were included to see what multiple women of that faith feel. As a member, I would have stepped forward.
@@jaimeebeard618yeah I feel like the Mormon side of this conversation was not fully represented. There were a lot of young, relatively progressive, relatively “new” and nuanced members on the panel. Where were the lifelong members? Bring on the 40+ bishops and relief society presidents born in the covenant. I want to hear that perspective on LGBTQ+/race exclusion/polygamy/doctrinal change etc…. None of this nuanced progressive crap, where are the doctrinal purists?!?
Or if having leukemia and taking his chemo meds would result in him losing his temple recommend. “You can have leukemia, you just can’t act like you do…”
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
These replies are really funny considering Cardon's leukemia was actually a choice. He chose to spray carcinogenic insecticides without proper protection. Ergo, he chose to have leukemia. (Cardon has/works for a pest control business)
He has a whole podcast, and with one of the other guys here,Kwaku, and another guy named Brad. He never makes sense., he’s always just a manipulative bigoted bully.
If you really want to be offended you should watch his show. He’s holding back here. His explanations are very representative of the loyal orthodoxy who feels the need to explain those asinine things that come from leaders that the leaders don’t even explain themselves. Just know it’s a big church and there are a lot of progressive members who don’t hold these views.
@ BlueShirtWithATie “a lot” is a tiny fraction of the membership, the progressive Mormons are out of line with the leadership and still support and fund the abusive institution.
Loved the shocked Pikachu face reaction from most of the "priesthood holders" and then the one in the suit was like "I can't name half the apostles either" excuses, excuses.
@@arturovega6522 other than this is a blatant lie. He definitely knows who the first presidency and acting quorum of the 12 is. Even I can name probably name 10 of them. There is a primary song about the modern day prophets. Modern day prophets are number 1 Joseph Smith then Brigham Young. John Taylor came third you know then....etc. There is one about the 12 apostles but thankfully I no longer have kids in the primary and my grands don't sing it.
@@arturovega6522bro rocked up to this thing in full bishop’s attire and he claims he doesn’t know all the apostles? Biggest lie since Mormonism itself 😂
In a reaction video to this Middle Ground Episode put out by Ward Radio (Kwaku + Cadron + others), they were laughing their asses off about how they didn’t know the RS president and were never going to even bother looking it up. Yet they claim women are treated equally…?
I love how John says he has a PHD and personally interviewed 1,600 current and ex-Mormons, gave his findings and then Tember says no because that’s not what he’s experienced 💀
Just wait till you hear how John recently had someone secretly follow and spy on a gay couple at church to see if they would be able to take the sacrament. After seeing they could, he made a RUclips video about it and used a photo of the gay couple for the video image without their permission. John may outwardly seem like he cares, but he's turned his disdain for the LDS church into his own personal money making machine. He constantly hassles his followers for donations. Whether they realize it or not, those who choose to follow and donate to John have simply traded in one religion for another.
@@Old_and_Wise how is that relevant to tember completely disregarding other people's experiences? that has nothing to do with john. nice attempt to pathetically redirect.
@@chlyri John’s doctoral research centered on mental health outcomes of gay LDS members who entered into mixed-orientation marriages. What he found was that on the whole the group could expect worse mental health outcomes than people dealing with chronic illness e.g. Lupus. So when Tember says happy, that’s fine for him but it’s dangerous to tell other gay Mormons they can do that too and be happy. The current LDS handbook of instructions actually has stepped back from having bishops recommend gay members pursue heterosexual relationships, this is a change from even a few years ago.
Not to mention that it feels very sad that he identifies as gay in a heterosexual marriage. Neither he or his wife can feel what a fulfilling, fully attracted sex life is like.
Kwaku stating it was essentially just people complaining had that superior air of "just deal with it". That elitist Mormon (male) attitude always attempts to discount the reality beyond their thin walls.
It’s frustrating to hear them constantly say “it’s not just Mormonism, it’s all judeo Christian societies” and like.. yeah. Okay. That’s bad too. That’s not what we are talking about here lol
Yes especially because they claim to be the ONLY true church. Mormons don’t believe other religions have correct teachings so why do they use them to justify their own mistakes? They’re supposed to be held to a higher standard but they don’t do that.
Why is Mormonism claiming to be the one true religion then? If they CHOSE to adopt what other religions deem as truth, then they don't get to throw others under the bus when they follow it too.
@@Mizionarey77 There's literally so many religions or there that get cancelled for being "too feminist". Just cuz they're not your major abrahamic religions doesn't mean you can overlook them and decide Christianity is best like wth
@@MisoSoup03 Im not basing it because of bias or overlooking them, I'm looking at a historical lens. Historically, Christianity brought education and literacy towards so many parts of the world including mine historically. They're the first to abolish slavery, first to come up with women's rights and labor. I'm not saying the people are perfect, but I can't deny these facts
@@Mizionarey77they also brought plague and slavery. And who is to say that they weren’t educated in different ways? For instance, native Americans were more knowledgeable about agriculture. Just because the British came and taught them English, doesn’t mean it was a net plus for them. Your line of thinking is very colonized. Not every population wanted the “education” provided. The way they were living suited their lifestyles. Again I’ll use Native Americans as an example. They lived in “huts” because they were a nomadic people. The British considered this to be uncivilized and FORCED them to live a stationary life
Here’s another one for you. Tember: the priesthood ban was not doctrine. John: The first presidency said it was. Cardon: JOSEPH SMITH BAPTIZED BLACK PEOPLE
“I am a firm believer in slavery , if a master has a Negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.” - Brigham Young speaking before territorial lawmakers in 1852
I mean to be fair, the same happened when the gay Mormon was pressed by the psychologist and one of the girls. It’s just an uncomfortable situation overall.
@@immersion9880 They were on opposite sides of the argument though, you can see how the girl was not free to say whatever she wanted to say without feeling pressured by her side
Cardone says “not allowed, that’s a misrepresentation. You can pray however you want.” No we can’t. In Sacrament meeting I prayed to Heavenly Father and Mother. I wa told by my branch president (my husband) and my stake president, that if I couldn’t pray the way I was told to pray then was no longer allowed to pray in sacrament meeting.
i hate when they say its not the church that tells you those things its the people. its the peoples problem, or christianity’s problem, or western cultures problem,,,,, never the church’s fault. even though people in the church will tell you what to do and how to do it !!!!
are we not gonna talk about how there’s a gay male married to a woman openly saying he still has same sex attraction… that in it self tells you how much in denial these people are
they're willing to admit they have same sex attraction when they've convinced themselves it's okay as long as they don't act on it, and it's great for bearing testimonies.
Thats not the problem. It’s completely fine if he wants to go to heaven and believes in christ. The problem is that he felt the need to even marry a woman in the first place in order to get to heaven. Why should that one factor of him being gay mean that he cant be closer to christ, that he cant even enter heaven? Thats messed up. It’s messed up that he feels the need to do all of that. It’s messed up that he feels the need to go against his very own nature just to be accepted in his religion. He should be able to believe in Christ without having to marry a woman, because the base of a religion should always be your belief in it, not how you act in it. While it is important to do what your faith tells you to do, the most important part should always be your belief.
That's the Mormon church for you, it's so weird. The guy is gay but because of his religion he cannot be who he wants to be so he married a girl. I've known another married couple that had multiple domestic violence assault against his wife, and I guess the higher-ups in the church wouldn't let them get divorced. So the lady stayed in the church and is still married to this a******. It's so crazy how much to say the church has in your relationships.
JWs aren't allowed to associate with exJWs. Besides, they'd see it as putting the organisation in danger by exposing it to the scrutiny of the "devil's" world. Also in any case they'd have to seek permission from their elders or overseer so it'd be virtually impossible. I'd be beyond surprised if the found a handful of active JWs willing to participate to, in their view, such an unnecessary strain to the faith not only of themselves but in general.
Gordon? The rizzler himself. He has lvl 100 Aura, so maybe ur just a Beta or scared by His Hunter eyes. Bro can rizz Up Baby gronkh and u cant do anything against IT, so keep yapping lil bro
The fact that Cardon developed an “I’m suffering, so why shouldn’t the rest of the world suffer with me?” mindset instead of an “I’m suffering, but that doesn’t mean that others have to” mindset after getting diagnosed with leukaemia is very telling of the kind of person he is
The guy crying at the beginning at around the 11 minute mark with literally no tears was so triggering as someone who grew up in the church. It’s just a manipulation tactic.
@@orisonorchards4251 I once promised cake to my kids heading off to a fireside (church broadcast) with Eyring if Eyring didn't cry during the fireside. Needless to say, I didn't have to bake a cake.
The way Tember keep arguing that different forms of bigotry (homophobia,Sexism etc) aren’t unique to Mormonism as if it makes it not as bad or even okay ????💀💀💀
@@CaiyaSanchez He wanted natural kids. Two penises couldn’t do that, because that’s not how life was intended to be created. I’m sure he’s pretty happy with his nuclear family that he’s now created and is now raising with his beautiful wife. Why don’t you stop speaking for him, he has spoken. Also, why not check out his blog? He goes into full detail about his history and his current situation.
to play devil's advocate, he was making a counterpoint to what Liz was saying about straight vs gay trials as a mormon. and he personally got dealt a rough hand. it's completely moot as a sociopolitical argument though, as there is no discriminatory cause for his illness.
If you watch the Mormon Stories Podcast reaction video to this Jubilee podcast, the 4 exmos were on the MSP, you will hear them talk about some of the cuts the editors did that actually made Cardon sound better bc he really came off as a jerk in the 3 hour taping. Even the active Bella was embarrassed by him.
The girl in the blue turtleneck seems like she’s highly confused in what she believes it like every single time she’s partly agreeing with the ex-Mormon side, but just falling back on her faith
You could see the sheer hope on the ex-mormon womans face as she talked directly to a CONSCIOUS and AWARE mormon woman. That girl is waking up to the atrocities that go on there...
she’s a convert and has only been in the church for 5 years. on the mormon stories podcast they watched the video back and talked about how bella went out with them afterwards (she was the only mormon who decided to join them) and she told them she had felt a little embarrassed and she wanted to switch to their side.
It's the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance. She'll probably be out in the next few years. It's hard to keep convincing yourself it's true once you start to see the light.
I’m 16 I can name her, her name is sister Johnson. The reason they may not know is because she was called just over a year ago and has only spoke a few times. I bet most people can’t name the young men’s president either
@@austinjefferies9795I think that’s the point. She’s arguably the most powerful woman in our church and she has barely been given the chance to speak. She doesn’t even get to choose when she will speak to the members: men choose that. The prophet and his counselors and all the apostles speak to all the members at least 2-3 times a year. I know the desire to defend the church is so strong, but you have to think about this non-member perspectives. Imagine a workplace where the ceo, the board, and the managers were only held by men and their were rules in place to keep woman from those jobs. It would be super sexist. Members don’t feel that about the church because there is a spiritual side where the promised blessings are more equal but for those who don’t believe the church’s claims on future blessings the here and now just looks like a backdated sexist organization.
So funny when the ex Mormons are asked a quiestion, they have a straight answer with a solid point. When the Mormon answers, straight circles and no point at all.
Unfortunately maybe religious people, not just Mormons, have the unenviable job of defending ancient texts in a modern world. It is a near impossible task.
@@amykirby3136The Mormon church is unique in that there is just so much overwhelming evidence that it's all made up. You can literally see the edits in the margins he made when he would retroactively change stuff to benefit himself. You have hundreds of witness testimonies of all the people he scammed out of money, court cases against him for fraud, the young girls he convinced to marry him. You have the actual Egyptian papyrus he "translated" into the Book of Abraham and you can see it's a false translation. Every single field of study from anthropology to genetics to archaeology to linguistics even to engineering disproves the Book of Mormon. So Mormon apologists have to use the most wild and ridiculous mental gymnastics to defend their beliefs. But it is interesting that as you watch them contort themselves into pretzels to maintain some sort of plausibility for their claims, you begin to notice the same tactics being used to defend other religious beliefs, only to a less obvious degree.
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
It was interesting that they didn't address eternal polygamy during the question of equality. Mormon men (if they are widowers now) can still be sealed to multiple women who will all be his eternal wives, while women who are widows would have to break their original seal to be sealed to a new husband. In an eternal polygamist existence with one husband and multiple wives that don't even know each other, how co-equal is the decision making?
Like the cult of ex-mormonism. I have never experienced as much hate as I did when my exmo group of friends found out I wanted to go back to church. Talk about absolute hate and vitriol.
This guy has very aggressive body language and I know a member who has a similar aggressive and combative tone. It's the problem with religion in general, there are always people who are arrogant in their faith because they know the answer
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
@Angus-Johnson-1996that has nothing to do with the comment you are replying to. Also kjv is one of the least accurate versions. King James intentionally bastardized the bishops bible transaction.
Claiming that the Church doesn't discriminate against LGBT people is some NEXT LEVEL gaslighting. Honestly respect to Kwaku for pretty much just acknowledging it and looking toward a different future, instead of playing mental gymnastics.
@@WishAtElevenEleven a deception is that Christianity is an umbrella term. Following Christ was always supposed to be simple. Religiosity has convoluted it. Mormonism, JW's, Catholicism, etc. differ from Christ ALONE. (like, for example praying to saints, and the heavenly mother...)
I'm sorry for Cardon that he's dealing with leukemia, but I do NOT like how he tried to emotionally manipulate by bringing up his situation and comparing it to being gay. Absolutely vile.
That’s exactly what Mormons like him do. They use emotion and sad personal stories to manipulate the conversation or narrative. It happens all the time.
the LDS church currently has a huge public relations campaign attempting to replace the term “mormon” with “christian”. Mormons argue that since they are “christ-followers” that they are christian. So there probably would be a huge uprising in the video and comment section about title alone.
I was once a Mormon. I could identify other organizations like Scientology or Jehovah's Witness as "cults" or otherwise harmful religions, but it took a long time for me to recognize my own religion as such. Childhood indoctrination can be really tough to beat.
The word is so loosely defined though. At this point, it seems less of an actual statement and more of a perjorative that means almost nothing at this point
Yeah, this couldn’t happen. Hey, it’s extremely hard to leave Scientology and be you’d be hard-pressed to have a Scientologist that would be willing to have this debate.
@@wardified8566 ummmm the Catholics could survive a lawsuit from actual countries. The Mormons have significantly less money that the Scientology sector. The Jews could fight almost anyone as well. Do some research.
@@WalterDEgger Members of the Church of Scientology wouldn't, but most Scientologists are actually not in the church of Scientology but have gone independent.
I think what hes trying to say is that everyone has problems and some bigger than others so technically being gay in the church is just another hardship or like everyone else, Basically everybody has problems just because your gay doesn't mean that you have a bigger problems than us
John Dehlin, you were a freaking rockstar. Love your perspective and your podcast!! You NAILED this. The juxtaposition of you and Cardon (in thoughtful answers, respect to the women, not being domineering) was such a slam dunk.
I’m also an exmormon and I really love how you presented your views. It seemed like you were very thoughtful and insightful. I’m really grateful for your part in the debate, and helping to make it interesting, and sparking some thoughts for myself.
I sooooo badly wanted that question asked and I thought of it immediately. I can understand how live with others could make it harder to have those great questions instantly.
That's where I lost it. The "cure" to being gay is actually being gay. I'm so much happier allowing myself to love who I love. But that makes me immoral* and unworthy*. His leukemia treatments don't make him unworthy, his efforts for comfort aren't immoral. *in the eyes of Mormons.
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
Cardon Ellis: The moment that you called the women on the panel "girls" you showed your hand and lost any credibility you may have. Which on this topic is zero.
I can see people quite ruffled about this in the comments. For the life of me I cannot understand why this was so bothersome to so many? This is one of the more innocuous things he actually said. It is a colloquial term.
@@DHU11it’s belittling. Addressing the women as “girls” is insinuating they are less mature/responsible than the “men”. Essentially treating them like children.
Gerald Causse is the Bishopric and Lund....I think Steven? Lund is YM pres. And I know Brad Wilcox is in the Ym Presidency...I don't know who the RS pres is off the top of my head. I'd have to look her up.
Yep! She’s soooo important which is why we have no idea what her name is. Also, the hosts of the mormon podcast (K and C) know the names of the top male leadership…please.
Tehutli, how’s listing 5 national presidents from centuries ago related to mormons claiming not to know the names of their top CURRENT church leaders? Try again.
Hi, it's Dillan (the episode spelled it Dillian) from the video. I had a wonderful experience filming this and am thankful for all of the kind words spoken about the wonderful people I met on that set, including Bella, who is indeed a sweetheart and true MVP of this video.
Loved your imput and commentary on the mormon stories react video! Hope to see your story on the podcast sometime. (As well as Bella and tembers stories)
@dazedneptune So is every domestic violence law. There is no reason to treat people from different races differently, but it's literally impossible to treat men and women the same way in all aspects. No woman would even want that.
Cardon staring Bella down is all I needed to see about his thoughts on women. I was really frustrated when he was sarcastic and glib with her. Like he felt it was his duty to correct her.
Again you guys are reading into small stuff like this way too much. I swear, gen x and millennials are so soft. You’re saying he gave someone a bad look so that means he doesn’t treat his wife well
It was like he switched to in-group communication for a quick second - you could see it in Bella's reaction too. Loved the women joining her voice immediately
If everything is a cult than the world cult IS meaningless. You hear the word "cult" and associate it with poisoned Kool aid. But if the definition of cult also includes Star wars fans, then "cult" loses its edge.
It hurts that much more when you realize that they truly haven't even attempted at understanding why it might be considered harmful. You've run all of the scenarios in your head for years, the ifs ands and buts plus the what if that was the case, while they were busy chopping carrots and singing hymns.
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
@@KnuttyEntertainment with every respect, nothing you’ve said has altered how it came across. I appreciate you feeling a need to better express Cardon’s point for him, but it still felt off base. His wanting to trade off leukaemia for Tember’s “gayness” as he put it felt incredibly naive and diminishing of what it is like to experience prejudice as a gay individual. I’m sure he does want to live longer, and it’s bloody awful he had to go through that, but I can assure you he absolutely does not want to deal with what some of us have to experience. I also disagree that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals. I’m not sure how you can speak for every church and congregation throughout the world with enough confidence to know that.
Kwaku defending racists who didn't want him to be part of their church hurts my black soul. The reinterpretation of the skin of blackness is also wild.
It’s ridiculous and they fully well know they’re wrong. They just can’t admit it. I’ve seen interviews of ex-mo native Americans who were told their skin would lighten if they lived the gospel.
@@swarlesbarkely2449 there are interviews of people who said it happened to them. I heard stuff like that all the time in the 80’s growing up in the church.
I used to go to an LDS church just to play basketball. Walking thru the church and experiencing the vibe was eye opening and felt super cookie cutter. It made me nervous. But the people were extremely nice. Those Mormon boys can play
Except for his study doesn’t even actually say that. True early statistics say 51% and time will tell from there, but his paper just “projects” that it will be 70% for seemingly no reason other than to prove the obvious biases he has. Not to mention he makes this argument in front of somebody in a mixed orientation marriage. All of the people here who didn’t like whenever facts and statistics were used by Cardon in the face of the “feelings” of the ex Mormons there were pretty quiet about what they would typically consider “violence” in the form of saying that the person they’ve decided to pursue marriage with isn’t going to work out statistically.
@@KDisforWHIMPS It is clear you have your mind set! And thats okay! If you ever are curious about what his reseach actually is you should go and read it! There is very compelling evidence based on the information he got on the 1200 participants to suggest mixed orientation marriages are unhealthy. :) But by all means if the single guy up there telling you that his marriage is fine is super compelling to you I then wont argue.
@@iliketurtles511 Can you elaborate? I am not sure I follow. I assume you mean when he covers gross misconduct by the Mormon church he doesn't get super worked up about it? I think it's just his style. It's a professional way of talking about serious topics without putting off those who aren't keen to hear about the misdeeds of the Mormon church. But his podcast DOES cover the inappropriate things the church does. He just speaks calmly and directly about it when interviewing his guests. It's a responsible style as a host.
No offense, but I have seen Mormon teachings that clearly show women underneath men, and heard teachings that it is up to the husband to give the wife her secret name. @@ElsaLouiseSinger
You can see Bella questioning Mormonism as this video continues , I’m glad she had this space to feel safe enough to question her truth , would be curious to see where she is at after some time
I also think it was an accurate representation of Mormon membership; not all of the members are 100% on board with what their church does, just like any other religion.
@@adubs9864because the majority of people in a religion or church are only there because they were indoctrinated from birth by their family/community. Most people don’t choose the religion they follow or practice. So when someone who’s only in that religion because they had gotten used to being brainwashed by what their family and community says starts hearing other POVs, it’s likely for them to start thinking for themselves and questioning the things they always heard but never really understood.
@@adubs9864 Because not every member of a religion is going to believe 100% of what they're told to believe or have completely identical interpretations and experiences.
The LDS church is vigorously gas lighting the 20 and under crowd that the BoM meant skin of blackness as a metaphor and not actual black skin. Problem is that many prophets over the pulpit and in writing have said skin is skin. Very racist.
That was actually insane 😂😂 Like no it was a metaphor... wait no it might be real but not... Black is an idiom... But over here they said white ppl.... Black is a skin! It was a lot 😭 Meanwhile the psychologist said "but the book says this.... 🤔"
“Masturbation is sinful" Exclusive prompt now on Patreon 👉 www.patreon.com/jubileemedia
I would really like it if we could break the "judeo-christian" narrative and have a jews vs christians episode. Christians love to use "judeo-christian" to explain Christian beliefs that don't at all represent Judaism.
but Joseph boning under age house keeper ok fannie algier lets not talk about that lol
@@YoYoWaddupBro How about your demographic stops building tunnels under cities and stocking them with children's clothing and mattresses?
@@FerretCuddles and what is my demographic lmao
@@YoYoWaddupBro Your defensiveness speaks volumes. For anyone reading this thread, look into memory holed topics such as:
The deliberate attack on the USS Liberty.
The Lavon Affair.
The LA Weisberg Scandal.
The "'Catholic"' Immigration League.
The Lawyers Guild (and their funders).
The child trafficking rings owned and run by the IDF operating in South America after Ukraine got too much State Department attention in the early '10s.
The connection between Jeffrey Epstein and the **ws who control the computer system used by federal law enforcement.
And last, but certainly not least, the people who ran the FTX scam and where that money was funneled.
NEED an episode of licensed therapists vs. life coaches
This would be very interesting!!!
Omg yesss
John’s wife is a life coach actually haha
That is brilliant
@@winston8186 So is he. He has a PhD, but never got licensed and operates as a coach.
Having a moderator sitting with them has really improved this show so much
thank you! It was great moderating this episode
@@GEN Great work! You should be proud of this episode - the team hit it out of the park.
Agreed
@@GENGreat job moderating. Just curious why you guys were bringing up statistics and definitions for the ex-mormon side, but non for the Mormon side? It seemed one sided due to that.
@@aluf2567as a non-mormon, there wasn't really a point in the video where the mormon side brought up a statistic or jargon word needing further explanation or understanding. the non-mormon side mentioned a specific passage without quoting in full, so showing the quote on screen helped contextualise the interpretation from both ends for me as someone unfamiliar with the passage being discussed. Was there an instance you felt needed on-screen contextualisation from the mormon side?
"don't you think that on my leukemia death bed, I wouldnt trade for some gayness?" is one of the most insane hypotheticals ive ever heard
Absolutely
Some gay Mormons would literally rather be dead than gay in the church soooo
[Leukemia] … “I would take a little bit of Tember’s gayness.” Haha, just a little, but most certainly not the the whole kit and caboodle gayness!!
This is an example of the hoops Mormon’s have to jump through to rationalize belief.
Yeeeah the Mormons lost me on that 😬
No middle ground here, the Mormons got cooked lol
“Im gay but i have a wife and kids” that poor woman
How rude. Do you know her? Do you really know Tember outside of this virtue signaling clown show you just watched?
@@dcarts5616based
I feel bad for Tember because you can tell his been heavily repressed for his sexuality so much.
@@hondurasreview4728 I feel bad for you being so judgmental. Quiet.
@@dcarts5616 I didn’t say it was his own fault…….
It's very telling that the one mormon woman here is even able to recognize the gender issues in the church. Only the mormon men said no, and even when they gave the mormon woman a chance to speak, they werent really hearing her.
The “where does it end?” argument. Like what? Are you afraid if you give women an inch of power they will take over?
@@NicoleUntch will you be satisfied with that?
@@NicoleUntch Have you heard of feminism and the destruction of the western world?
The LDS men were like... Let us tell you how you feel Bella.
Look to be honest she isn’t really well informed so I wouldn’t hold too much weight on her comments, respectfully.
Tember saying he’s attracted to men, but married a woman instead because of religion is one of the saddest things I’ve ever heard
Ya, how sad how we talks about the joy of fatherhood and the love he has for his wife. . . 0.o
@@OntheOtherHandVideos From the way he spoke about it, it sounded more like his fulfillment comes from completing tasks placed on him by the church rather than something that would just come naturally to him.
@@curly_bill You should look up the many interviews he has done - that is not the case at all.
We are genuinely happy. It’s really not that sad. 🤷🏽♀️
@@tefanyharward6614 is he bi or just gay? Cause if he’s just gay, does it not hurt to think that he may not be sexually attracted to you? I don’t ask this to hurt your feelings, just genuinely curious because this is a very unique situation. I am an ex mormon btw
I have a friend with leukemia. He doesn’t use it to try to win arguments.
I like Carson. I listen to his podcast. But I don’t think in this case his apples to apples comparison got his point across.
Probably because he's a moral person with a conscience and a brain.
Cardon seems like the human being equivalent of a flaming brown bag on your doorstep.
Yes, how dare someone . . . **checks notes** . . . try to empathize with someone going through something hard that isn't easily processable.
@@OntheOtherHandVideoswhat exactly is hard about being gay?
@@FWWillis Not being able to have biological children with a homosexual partner is pretty hard. We are kind of hard coded to want to have kids of our own.
That guy in the suit is honestly the scariest part of the church for me, the way he stared down the Mormon girl after saying it’s not equal is horrifying
peeped that. made me feel so uncomfortable even through my screen
@@basilmagnanimous7011Men.
He totally missed the mark on the sexism prompt. He kept trying to say it was all about the priesthood when everyone else was bringing up other issues
Who was it?
@@dakotathon cardon
The leukemia trade was a WILD drop
It’s a solid get out of jail free card, many people wouldn’t have called him out on it.
Editing made it look worse. Look at Ward Radio’s reaction to this video. Different context.
@@brynnaandersen7739Cardon has proven himself to be very disingenuous and borderline hateful in his rhetoric about people who leave the church. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's his word that he was clipped out of context and that's worth very little to me
@@CosmicGumbo555 ok
A lot of emotional gaslighting is typical in religious institutions.
Oh, you're gay and suicidal because we say you're sinful? At least you don't have leukemia and I've more reasons to be emotional.
I wonder how Cardon would feel if he weren’t allowed in the temple because he’s undergoing chemotherapy
Damn , that’s real talk
Gay people don’t have to practice a gay lifestyle.
why not allowed? Is there a verse that said so?
@@seekerandthinkerit was in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. I have 3 wittnesses.
Why?
“I got a question for you girls” is a great summation of Cardon’s apathy toward what women actually desire, to be treated like equal adults… not “girls”
This bothered me too. It seemed infantalizing
Yeah they need to call us Lords and we call them ladies. We need to remove guys, boys, dudes, chaps, blokes, bros, for boys and girls, gals, chicks, misses, sister from our vocabulary and use more sophisticated titles like Men Lord, your highness, Dukes, Misters, Masters for men and Women, Ladies, Your Highness, Madame, Dames, and Mistresses for women. Then none of us would feel infantile.
ok Karen
Seriously!
He really is a terrible person
"mY SHoW ChOIr in HiGh SCHooL was a CuLT" is sending me
Mine actually started a cult so he's technically not wrong 😂
Gotta look at it more literally. Def of cult: a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object. So when you show up to choir/ and or band. You are devoting those hours towards your instrument. Now the def of religion has many meanings, but Some people do devote that time religiously😂 but it’s their craft.
@@TryingToFindSumyeah, lots of things are cults. People don’t call them cults however because that word is now associated with negative connotations. The word almost has two meanings now
The suit-and-tie-guy is basically the poster boy for everyone's issues with the church.
Ironically on his own channel (ward radio), he refuses to wear a suit and tie.
@@scottvance74 Coz on his own channel he doesn't represent the church and here he wanted to look all Priesthood Bishopy-like
@@scottvance74 If a Native American came to a discussion on Native Americans using traditional Native American attire, would you see a problem with that?
He’d certainly make me think twice if I was investigating joining and came across this
@@Mr-Thou Cardon does at least two programs. In his one about mormonism (Ward Radio), he wears a t-shirt. In his one about pest control (an outside, messy job), he wears a white shirt and tie. I just find it odd how he dresses differently for these two audiences.
The way the men are “men” but the women are “girls” to Mormon dude. 😂
YES! In the middle of a conversation about equality/sexism.
I pushed myself to watch their podcast reaction to the video and it was excruciating, they were so condescending, kept only referring to Jillian as “green shirt girl” or the lesbian. It was gross.
Yes!! When the tie guy said “I have a question for you girls” Jillian smirked and I wanted her to correct him sooo bad.
@@savascha hey, do you remember the name of their podcast?
My thoughts exactly
The way Bella speaks is so indicative of what it’s like being a woman in the church. She was the most soft spoken, a lot of nervousness despite her bravery to speak up. Anyone closely familiar with the church would recognize her ‘missionary voice’ frequently coming in
she was so real.
This was the saddest part to watch
Totally disagree. That could be her personality. It could be a family thing. I was never taught to be quiet as a member. I say what I what I want and I'm never ashamed.
@@Amog16In all seriousness, Mormons like their women to speak quietly.
yes. the higher pitch softer tone of submission learned is so very real.
I love how when the ex Mormons answer they have a perfect straight forward simple argument and the Mormons have to go through a million mental gymnastics and rationalizations
11:23 “Being gay is not a trial. Being gay in the church is a trial.”
Such a slay by Jillian 🙌
Yes, and she followed that up by attacking "wHite men", because nothing says 'slay' like disparaging people for their race and sex . . .
Yes, nailed it!
And having leukemia is no different than having leukemia in the church, probably easier in the church just because of the community help, depending on one's ward of course.
Instant tears. This was a mic drop.
Being gay isn’t a trial?
@@tressahale9983of course it is. Homosexuality is condemned in the bible
The entire standing of the Mormon's is, "Well that's not just our problem, everyone does this" while also saying "This is the one true Church and we have all the truth." You can't be different and better when you are the same.
all of the credit, none of the blame.
This is so well said and just reasonable to think about. It can’t possibly be the same but also different.
FYI I’m a catholic and will forever be a catholic
It’s the truth, doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with everything.
@@FrankskinOrweed-ep4ij Not sure what you being Catholic and disagreeing with the Catholic church has to do with the Mormons stating other people do something while also stating the church is true and all the truth is there. Just doesn't have anything to do with the statement.
The way they generalize everything is so elementary school… Gretchen did it down the street too so don’t call me out.
Not Tember saying ,”oh yeah I used to be gay but now I have a wife and kids” and then in the next segment saying ,”as a gay member of the church.” 💀
Rather than being critical, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure by him saying 'used to be gay' he was referring to living an actively gay lifestyle.
hey at least his wife knooows. The ones who think their husband is straight get brokenhearted.
Why do Mormon haters think of the negative all the time 😂
@@sjsjciskwmddjs5924 because it's a bigoted religion that hurts people?
@@tefanyharward6614 goalsss🙌
26:05 When he called the women ‚girls‘ someone should have called him out. It’s horrendous how he clearly doesn’t see women as equal in any capacity and only enforces and exerts his own authority.
Wtf are you talking about, you must not be from utah or maybe even the US. Its common in the US to refer to a group of women as girls, and also to refer to a group of men as boys, regardless of age.
"What do you boys want" "what are you girls up to" is appropriate to say to men and women
@@nathanspringer9902 but in debates its used as disrespectful to make the person seem less than what they are
Interesting that this guys says, “ I have a question for you “girls.” Was his way of lowering their status by not calling these woman clearly adults the title as girls. He would never say to these men, “I have a question for you boys.” His view is very clear.
Normally I wouldn't think much of someone saying "girls" in that context since I refer to me and my friends as "me and the boys" without any demeaning behind it. But Cardon's attitude towards the women in the panel paired with how Mormonism structurally treats women gives me reason to think you're correct.
And then to realize at church he would be calling them something also very cringe-- "sisters".
exactly! I started screaming “women!!! women!!!” at my screen.
He doesn’t know he’s doing it but He KNOWSS he is doing something that has worked.
Women are infantalized by the men of the church. Head patted, “There there, now go on. hush,”
Yup. In addition, when extending his “olive branch,” he said something to the effect of “I understand why you’d want to see more women up there, it’s fun to watch a movie where the superheroes look like you!” A less than subtle manipulation to make their arguments look childish and to dismiss them.
@@w0ody16 Exactly, there's nothing inherently wrong with it but in that context with everything he'd said prior and the Mormon Church's views, he doesn't see them as equals at all.
I love how the girls are like “maybe some more roles in the church” and the guy is like YOU WANT US TO REWRITE THE BIBLE
LITERALLY. his defense mechanism of leaping to the wildest and unrelated extremes had my jaw on the floor multiple times
@@HaveaBiscuittbro definitely learns his argument style from people like Ben Shapiro
Yeah but the bible lays out roles for the people in the church. So if women want roles that the bible doesn't say they can have then guess what? They want you to rewrite the Bible that is literally the only thing that can mean.
They don't follow the Bible! They have changed the book and also have 5 more of their own books. Don't mix christians with mormons🙏🏼🤍
Yeah , see woman are already screwing this perfect system all up
‘Men and women are equal in the church’ and only men step forward 😂
💯
They also only had 1 female on that side. It would have been nice if more women were included to see what multiple women of that faith feel. As a member, I would have stepped forward.
@@jaimeebeard618 Not if you were being honest. What's really on your shelf?
@@jaimeebeard618yeah I feel like the Mormon side of this conversation was not fully represented. There were a lot of young, relatively progressive, relatively “new” and nuanced members on the panel. Where were the lifelong members? Bring on the 40+ bishops and relief society presidents born in the covenant. I want to hear that perspective on LGBTQ+/race exclusion/polygamy/doctrinal change etc…. None of this nuanced progressive crap, where are the doctrinal purists?!?
*in the church.
The question is asking if in the eyes of the religion and the church are men and women equal.
The PHD Therapist Ex-Mormon guy is so cool
@mormonstoriespodcast
John Dehlin. He has a great podcast called Mormon Stories Podcast. It’s been around since quite literally, the beginning of podcasts.
100% agree. The blue shirt morman guy was trying to fight against it because "That's not me" news flash, the world is more than just you.
Nah John Dehlin is an obvious 🤡, but hey if being a grifter makes you more than six figures why not incite division and hate?
@@nisamsnjesko How so? I only know him from this video
How would Cardin feel if he was repeatedly told that having leukemia is a choice? He needs to have empathy for others other than himself
the last thing i understood before getting out was that being gay isn't a choice, like leukemia, but acting on it is.
Imagine if they told him that he's choosing to engage in a leukaemia lifestyle, and that it can go away if he joins the church and prays
Or if having leukemia and taking his chemo meds would result in him losing his temple recommend. “You can have leukemia, you just can’t act like you do…”
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
These replies are really funny considering Cardon's leukemia was actually a choice. He chose to spray carcinogenic insecticides without proper protection. Ergo, he chose to have leukemia. (Cardon has/works for a pest control business)
the lekumia guy was absolutley wild. His argument made literally zero since
He just wanted to bring it up and make it about himself
He has a whole podcast, and with one of the other guys here,Kwaku, and another guy named Brad. He never makes sense., he’s always just a manipulative bigoted bully.
I had to pause it and try to process lmao
If you really want to be offended you should watch his show. He’s holding back here.
His explanations are very representative of the loyal orthodoxy who feels the need to explain those asinine things that come from leaders that the leaders don’t even explain themselves.
Just know it’s a big church and there are a lot of progressive members who don’t hold these views.
@ BlueShirtWithATie “a lot” is a tiny fraction of the membership, the progressive Mormons are out of line with the leadership and still support and fund the abusive institution.
"Can you name the Relief Society Presidency" was the nail in the coffin. The argument should've ended there.
Loved the shocked Pikachu face reaction from most of the "priesthood holders" and then the one in the suit was like "I can't name half the apostles either" excuses, excuses.
@@arturovega6522 other than this is a blatant lie. He definitely knows who the first presidency and acting quorum of the 12 is. Even I can name probably name 10 of them. There is a primary song about the modern day prophets. Modern day prophets are number 1 Joseph Smith then Brigham Young. John Taylor came third you know then....etc. There is one about the 12 apostles but thankfully I no longer have kids in the primary and my grands don't sing it.
The Mormon Coffin isn't big enough for all the nails the internet supplied.
@@arturovega6522bro rocked up to this thing in full bishop’s attire and he claims he doesn’t know all the apostles? Biggest lie since Mormonism itself 😂
In a reaction video to this Middle Ground Episode put out by Ward Radio (Kwaku + Cadron + others), they were laughing their asses off about how they didn’t know the RS president and were never going to even bother looking it up. Yet they claim women are treated equally…?
“Can you name the relief society president” 😭😭😭 I died
I love how John says he has a PHD and personally interviewed 1,600 current and ex-Mormons, gave his findings and then Tember says no because that’s not what he’s experienced 💀
Just wait till you hear how John recently had someone secretly follow and spy on a gay couple at church to see if they would be able to take the sacrament. After seeing they could, he made a RUclips video about it and used a photo of the gay couple for the video image without their permission.
John may outwardly seem like he cares, but he's turned his disdain for the LDS church into his own personal money making machine. He constantly hassles his followers for donations. Whether they realize it or not, those who choose to follow and donate to John have simply traded in one religion for another.
@@Old_and_Wise how is that relevant to tember completely disregarding other people's experiences? that has nothing to do with john. nice attempt to pathetically redirect.
@@chlyri John’s doctoral research centered on mental health outcomes of gay LDS members who entered into mixed-orientation marriages. What he found was that on the whole the group could expect worse mental health outcomes than people dealing with chronic illness e.g. Lupus. So when Tember says happy, that’s fine for him but it’s dangerous to tell other gay Mormons they can do that too and be happy. The current LDS handbook of instructions actually has stepped back from having bishops recommend gay members pursue heterosexual relationships, this is a change from even a few years ago.
John’s findings of his supposedly reached he did should be thrown out. There is data manipulation and he was bias in his research.
Not to mention that it feels very sad that he identifies as gay in a heterosexual marriage. Neither he or his wife can feel what a fulfilling, fully attracted sex life is like.
I like how when a woman has an opinion it’s a gripe.
Best comment
Kwaku stating it was essentially just people complaining had that superior air of "just deal with it". That elitist Mormon (male) attitude always attempts to discount the reality beyond their thin walls.
Welcome to being a woman in the Mormon cult.
But what if they take over the church and treat men the same way 🙀
@@kreed3494lol this is what they think we want when we want equality. that we’ll treat them how they treat us💀
It’s frustrating to hear them constantly say “it’s not just Mormonism, it’s all judeo Christian societies” and like.. yeah. Okay. That’s bad too. That’s not what we are talking about here lol
I’m sorry…But Christianity is nowhere near comparable to Mormonism. Mormons are on another level…
Yes especially because they claim to be the ONLY true church. Mormons don’t believe other religions have correct teachings so why do they use them to justify their own mistakes? They’re supposed to be held to a higher standard but they don’t do that.
Irritated me every time! Like ok, you wanna go there with why Christianity as whole has problems? But that wasn't the point of the discussion!
literally lolol
Why is Mormonism claiming to be the one true religion then? If they CHOSE to adopt what other religions deem as truth, then they don't get to throw others under the bus when they follow it too.
17:17 "There's no other church or religion that believes men and women and be equal" He's never heard of half the religions in Asia lmbo
as an Asian, this comment is just unaware. Christianity definitely elevated women the most in all human history.
@@Mizionarey77 There's literally so many religions or there that get cancelled for being "too feminist". Just cuz they're not your major abrahamic religions doesn't mean you can overlook them and decide Christianity is best like wth
Asia where? Hindus are so misogynistic. China is an atheist country.
@@MisoSoup03 Im not basing it because of bias or overlooking them, I'm looking at a historical lens. Historically, Christianity brought education and literacy towards so many parts of the world including mine historically. They're the first to abolish slavery, first to come up with women's rights and labor. I'm not saying the people are perfect, but I can't deny these facts
@@Mizionarey77they also brought plague and slavery. And who is to say that they weren’t educated in different ways? For instance, native Americans were more knowledgeable about agriculture. Just because the British came and taught them English, doesn’t mean it was a net plus for them. Your line of thinking is very colonized. Not every population wanted the “education” provided. The way they were living suited their lifestyles. Again I’ll use Native Americans as an example. They lived in “huts” because they were a nomadic people. The British considered this to be uncivilized and FORCED them to live a stationary life
Prompt: Mormonism is homophobic
Cardon: "I have Leukemia"
Everyone:😢
Jillian: "Stop this nonsense"
Here’s another one for you.
Tember: the priesthood ban was not doctrine.
John: The first presidency said it was.
Cardon: JOSEPH SMITH BAPTIZED BLACK PEOPLE
“I am a firm believer in slavery , if
a master has a Negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.” - Brigham Young speaking before territorial lawmakers in 1852
Er ... Brigham Young?
Bro took the pretend to be gay to pull girls too far
lol when that guy said he had leukemia. cuz it was cynical begging for sympathy that had no relevance to the discussion
The way the mormon girl started stuttering the moment the big mormon guy started questioning her opinion, WOW.
yeah that whole conversation was really sad / ironic
She is a woman, not a girl.
I mean to be fair, the same happened when the gay Mormon was pressed by the psychologist and one of the girls. It’s just an uncomfortable situation overall.
@@immersion9880 They were on opposite sides of the argument though, you can see how the girl was not free to say whatever she wanted to say without feeling pressured by her side
@f1nncess671 - yeah, exactly. I just felt my childhood and young womanhood coming back to me. Ugh.
does he not know that gay people also get leukemia? 😂
LMAOOO
Bingo
Double negative makes a positive, they get to go to heaven now 😂
Probably not 🫠
LMAO 😂
Cardone says “not allowed, that’s a misrepresentation. You can pray however you want.” No we can’t. In Sacrament meeting I prayed to Heavenly Father and Mother. I wa told by my branch president (my husband) and my stake president, that if I couldn’t pray the way I was told to pray then was no longer allowed to pray in sacrament meeting.
i hate when they say its not the church that tells you those things its the people. its the peoples problem, or christianity’s problem, or western cultures problem,,,,, never the church’s fault. even though people in the church will tell you what to do and how to do it !!!!
Not gonna lie that's kinda gae. I'm not a stake member, but he needs to rethink that.
are we not gonna talk about how there’s a gay male married to a woman openly saying he still has same sex attraction… that in it self tells you how much in denial these people are
they're willing to admit they have same sex attraction when they've convinced themselves it's okay as long as they don't act on it, and it's great for bearing testimonies.
They’re willing to go to heaven and live for eternity! Sorry if ur offended he’s gay and believes in Christ .
Thats not the problem. It’s completely fine if he wants to go to heaven and believes in christ. The problem is that he felt the need to even marry a woman in the first place in order to get to heaven. Why should that one factor of him being gay mean that he cant be closer to christ, that he cant even enter heaven? Thats messed up. It’s messed up that he feels the need to do all of that. It’s messed up that he feels the need to go against his very own nature just to be accepted in his religion. He should be able to believe in Christ without having to marry a woman, because the base of a religion should always be your belief in it, not how you act in it. While it is important to do what your faith tells you to do, the most important part should always be your belief.
That's the Mormon church for you, it's so weird. The guy is gay but because of his religion he cannot be who he wants to be so he married a girl. I've known another married couple that had multiple domestic violence assault against his wife, and I guess the higher-ups in the church wouldn't let them get divorced. So the lady stayed in the church and is still married to this a******. It's so crazy how much to say the church has in your relationships.
@@sjsjciskwmddjs5924 Christ would not like the mormon church tbh
i'd love to see jehovah's witnesses vs ex jehovah's witnesses
YESSSS omg we both have the same idea! I was about to comment this.
I’d be surprised if jw did that. From what I’ve seen they HATE apostates. Won’t even have a conversation with them
Practicing Jehovah's Witnesses would be very unlikely to do something like this, and their church leaders would strongly discourage it.
Don't think it'll happen
JWs aren't allowed to associate with exJWs. Besides, they'd see it as putting the organisation in danger by exposing it to the scrutiny of the "devil's" world. Also in any case they'd have to seek permission from their elders or overseer so it'd be virtually impossible. I'd be beyond surprised if the found a handful of active JWs willing to participate to, in their view, such an unnecessary strain to the faith not only of themselves but in general.
Cardon is very comfortable interrupting the women on this panel.
Bless the moderator
He really is the worst!!
To quote exmo podcaster Nuancehoe, he's a narcissistic douche bro.
Even just looking at him makes me mad 😭
Gordon? The rizzler himself. He has lvl 100 Aura, so maybe ur just a Beta or scared by His Hunter eyes. Bro can rizz Up Baby gronkh and u cant do anything against IT, so keep yapping lil bro
26:09 the look on her face when he says “i got a question for you girls” HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The fact that Cardon developed an “I’m suffering, so why shouldn’t the rest of the world suffer with me?” mindset instead of an “I’m suffering, but that doesn’t mean that others have to” mindset after getting diagnosed with leukaemia is very telling of the kind of person he is
Amen
Yes
he’s definitely bitter
@@abbydenison3574 and bitter people usually exude bitterness unless they become unbitter
For real
The guy crying at the beginning at around the 11 minute mark with literally no tears was so triggering as someone who grew up in the church. It’s just a manipulation tactic.
He's so embarrassing. He makes his church look awful.
Straight out of Henry B Crying's book.
I call it a crying Eyring. It's the same exact thing Eyring always pulls in conference. His tone and cadence is very Mormon, too. Same with Tember.
Amen!!!
@@orisonorchards4251 I once promised cake to my kids heading off to a fireside (church broadcast) with Eyring if Eyring didn't cry during the fireside. Needless to say, I didn't have to bake a cake.
The way Tember keep arguing that different forms of bigotry (homophobia,Sexism etc) aren’t unique to Mormonism as if it makes it not as bad or even okay ????💀💀💀
Please do a follow-up in 7 years. I predict Tember will be divorced or will be living his life on the down-low.
He already lived the debaucherous life before he found light. He recovered while many don’t. You should be applauding him.
@@dcarts5616 he didn’t “recover” bc there’s nothing wrong with him. He got scared for his salvation and decided to yield his happiness
@@CaiyaSanchez He wanted natural kids. Two penises couldn’t do that, because that’s not how life was intended to be created. I’m sure he’s pretty happy with his nuclear family that he’s now created and is now raising with his beautiful wife. Why don’t you stop speaking for him, he has spoken. Also, why not check out his blog? He goes into full detail about his history and his current situation.
While I sympathize with what Cardon is dealing with, I feel like he shouldn’t have brought it up in that context
Using it against the listener to play on emotions , theatrics at it’s best.
It's a false equivalent.
to play devil's advocate, he was making a counterpoint to what Liz was saying about straight vs gay trials as a mormon. and he personally got dealt a rough hand. it's completely moot as a sociopolitical argument though, as there is no discriminatory cause for his illness.
@@prancing_pansy pardon me
why would u wanna advocate for the devil ? And don’t give me any of that “figure of speech” nonsense
@@ReadingComprehension8X blud doesnt understand english figures of speech
Cardon has got to be the most manipulative person I’ve seen on this show
He embodies the LDS male mentality. It was everything I grew up seeing in the church.
And he was tame in this video. You should see the videos on his own channel! No, actually you shouldn't :D
If you watch the Mormon Stories Podcast reaction video to this Jubilee podcast, the 4 exmos were on the MSP, you will hear them talk about some of the cuts the editors did that actually made Cardon sound better bc he really came off as a jerk in the 3 hour taping. Even the active Bella was embarrassed by him.
He reminds me of a used car salesman
@@DeconstructionTherapyPodcast He's worse than the average LDS guy.
The girl in the blue turtleneck seems like she’s highly confused in what she believes it like every single time she’s partly agreeing with the ex-Mormon side, but just falling back on her faith
You could see the sheer hope on the ex-mormon womans face as she talked directly to a CONSCIOUS and AWARE mormon woman. That girl is waking up to the atrocities that go on there...
@@Pronoia_Subliminalsyesss I totally noticed that Jillian was smiling as she was listening to her!!
@@clementine2444for real she was like let her cook!!
she’s a convert and has only been in the church for 5 years. on the mormon stories podcast they watched the video back and talked about how bella went out with them afterwards (she was the only mormon who decided to join them) and she told them she had felt a little embarrassed and she wanted to switch to their side.
It's the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance. She'll probably be out in the next few years. It's hard to keep convincing yourself it's true once you start to see the light.
Tember gotta be the most Mormon name I’ve ever heard
I’ve never heard it before. Shut it. 😂
You've never heard of hyrum then.
I DIED WHEN SHE ASKED THEM TO NAME THE RELIEF SOCIETY PRESIDENT
😂
I know 😭 and I bet they honestly could name at least 10 apostles
Case closed
I’m 16 I can name her, her name is sister Johnson. The reason they may not know is because she was called just over a year ago and has only spoke a few times. I bet most people can’t name the young men’s president either
@@austinjefferies9795I think that’s the point. She’s arguably the most powerful woman in our church and she has barely been given the chance to speak. She doesn’t even get to choose when she will speak to the members: men choose that. The prophet and his counselors and all the apostles speak to all the members at least 2-3 times a year.
I know the desire to defend the church is so strong, but you have to think about this non-member perspectives. Imagine a workplace where the ceo, the board, and the managers were only held by men and their were rules in place to keep woman from those jobs. It would be super sexist. Members don’t feel that about the church because there is a spiritual side where the promised blessings are more equal but for those who don’t believe the church’s claims on future blessings the here and now just looks like a backdated sexist organization.
So funny when the ex Mormons are asked a quiestion, they have a straight answer with a solid point. When the Mormon answers, straight circles and no point at all.
Welcome to the Mormon church!
Unfortunately maybe religious people, not just Mormons, have the unenviable job of defending ancient texts in a modern world. It is a near impossible task.
@@stacie1595”ancient texts” John Smith wrote all this garbage in the 1800s. Not really ancient.
@@amykirby3136a lot of it was plagiarized from the KJV bible.
@@amykirby3136The Mormon church is unique in that there is just so much overwhelming evidence that it's all made up. You can literally see the edits in the margins he made when he would retroactively change stuff to benefit himself. You have hundreds of witness testimonies of all the people he scammed out of money, court cases against him for fraud, the young girls he convinced to marry him. You have the actual Egyptian papyrus he "translated" into the Book of Abraham and you can see it's a false translation. Every single field of study from anthropology to genetics to archaeology to linguistics even to engineering disproves the Book of Mormon.
So Mormon apologists have to use the most wild and ridiculous mental gymnastics to defend their beliefs. But it is interesting that as you watch them contort themselves into pretzels to maintain some sort of plausibility for their claims, you begin to notice the same tactics being used to defend other religious beliefs, only to a less obvious degree.
What does someone’s leukemia have to do with someone’s sexuality?
He just wanted a chance to bring that story up.
Mormons believe sexuality is an illness.
Like the lesbian said, the church sees being gay as a sickness.
Nothing. It's him attempting to gaslight everyone and I'm so glad she called him out on it.
Ya it was super manipulative
i feel so bad for the girl in the blue sweater
What is her name? Not knowing it is SO disrespectful. 😮
I'm a leukemia survivor (also queer) and the way Cardon dropped the Leukemia thing had me slack jawed. What an absolutely unhinged comparison.
Dude showed his hand for real.
Cardon was hoping for sympathy, but instead just showed us what an a..hole he is!
He’s also a leukemia survivor but he’s not gay like you.🌈🌈
How he can see them as equals, shows that he just doesn’t get it. Grateful that you made it.❤
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
Utah is ran by men exactly like Cardon. So, reading the comments of how many people think he’s horrendous makes me laugh.
I’ll be sure to never visit Utah. Thanks babe
@@KimchiGang1Salt Lake City is great, but don’t go anywhere else
As a Never-Mo born and raised in Utah & Wasatch County, it's been "fun" trying to navigate it all and survive.
Unfortunately, most of the country is run by people like him. They may not be mormon, but they are just as dogmatic and reactionary
Yeup! Reporting from the adjacent theocracy of Idaho. Our elected officials talk like Cardon.
I got a headache from my eyes rolling every time Cardon spoke
certainly tried to "elder's quorum president" control the conversation, dictating to the ladies, minimizing any opposing thoughts...
I read this as he said "is it okay? Define okay" and spent the next minute saying absolutely nothing.
It was interesting that they didn't address eternal polygamy during the question of equality. Mormon men (if they are widowers now) can still be sealed to multiple women who will all be his eternal wives, while women who are widows would have to break their original seal to be sealed to a new husband. In an eternal polygamist existence with one husband and multiple wives that don't even know each other, how co-equal is the decision making?
So can the Muslims.
Kwaku: "When I think of a cult I think of an organization that's really controlling, they control how you think..." 💀💀
As he regurgitates heinous idealogies from his cult. 😂
He's such a clueless asshat
To be fair, of all the Mormons here, Kwaku is the closest to leaving.
@@HunterRobinetteBrandon IDK I have hope for Bella (the Mormon girl)
Like the cult of ex-mormonism. I have never experienced as much hate as I did when my exmo group of friends found out I wanted to go back to church. Talk about absolute hate and vitriol.
Cardon dominating this entire conversation seriously says so much about who has privilege and power in The Mormon church.
No, I think it just says a lot about him.
Honestly though. Men telling women that they are equal. And just how talking down he is to everyone makes me cringe
This guy has very aggressive body language and I know a member who has a similar aggressive and combative tone. It's the problem with religion in general, there are always people who are arrogant in their faith because they know the answer
@@deanabraden9871 and the thousands of men like him in positions of power within the church…
And I saw this comment when it had 666 likes, coincidence?!, … I think not!! 😂😂
"Being gay is not a trial. Being gay in the church is a trial." Oooooooo! Nailed it.
I thought gay people were supposed to be super oppressed.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
King James Version
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Mic drop!!!! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
This was my favorite part of the video.
@Angus-Johnson-1996that has nothing to do with the comment you are replying to. Also kjv is one of the least accurate versions. King James intentionally bastardized the bishops bible transaction.
I would opine that this the best Jubilee video I have watched. So powerful, well moderated, and fascinating.
It’s funny how the Mormons did a better job convincing me Mormonism is a cult than the ExMormons. 😂
They did allot of that throughout the debate 😅omg
That’s why the mormon church controls what it’s members say publicly so much. 😬
LMAOOO that’s exactly what made me leave Catholicism too
@@AlzMarioWolfeCatholicism isn’t a cult tho
True
Claiming that the Church doesn't discriminate against LGBT people is some NEXT LEVEL gaslighting. Honestly respect to Kwaku for pretty much just acknowledging it and looking toward a different future, instead of playing mental gymnastics.
Especially when there has literally been nationwide controversy MULTIPLE times over Christians Discriminating against LGBT people.
@mersmersmers by definition, they are anyone that believes in Christ is a Christian.
@mersmersmersyes they are, Mormonism is a type of Christianity.
The dude who said it is an openly gay member ... so.... maybe he knows better than you
@@WishAtElevenEleven a deception is that Christianity is an umbrella term. Following Christ was always supposed to be simple. Religiosity has convoluted it. Mormonism, JW's, Catholicism, etc. differ from Christ ALONE. (like, for example praying to saints, and the heavenly mother...)
I'm sorry for Cardon that he's dealing with leukemia, but I do NOT like how he tried to emotionally manipulate by bringing up his situation and comparing it to being gay. Absolutely vile.
I loved they didn't edit it out because it showed how manipulate he was.
Came here to say this. Absolutely disgusting.
Liz staring at him with a straight face said it all
That’s exactly what Mormons like him do. They use emotion and sad personal stories to manipulate the conversation or narrative. It happens all the time.
He was the most rational of them all.
Can we have a Christians vs Mormons as well? Would love to see the discussions as a result
They would have to do it with Christain’s from the same denomination or it wouldn’t make sense
Luckily we’re Christian as well
So it would be Christian denominations debating each other
probably a more specific christian, maybe a denomination like Lutheran or something!
Yes!!!
the LDS church currently has a huge public relations campaign attempting to replace the term “mormon” with “christian”. Mormons argue that since they are “christ-followers” that they are christian. So there probably would be a huge uprising in the video and comment section about title alone.
I can honestly bet that if Mormons heard their perspective as another religion they would 100% think it’s a cult.
I was once a Mormon. I could identify other organizations like Scientology or Jehovah's Witness as "cults" or otherwise harmful religions, but it took a long time for me to recognize my own religion as such. Childhood indoctrination can be really tough to beat.
They do! They call FLDS a cult, which ironically follow Joseph smith closer than they do.
The word is so loosely defined though. At this point, it seems less of an actual statement and more of a perjorative that means almost nothing at this point
No
@@timmiestabrnak That's a total lie and you're completely ignorant.
Now get Scientologists vs Ex-Scientologists
I think they’ve done this before
they *HAVEN’T* done that before and no current Scientologist would be willing or even allowed to participate in that kind of video!
Yeah, this couldn’t happen. Hey, it’s extremely hard to leave Scientology and be you’d be hard-pressed to have a Scientologist that would be willing to have this debate.
@@wardified8566 ummmm the Catholics could survive a lawsuit from actual countries. The Mormons have significantly less money that the Scientology sector. The Jews could fight almost anyone as well. Do some research.
@@WalterDEgger Members of the Church of Scientology wouldn't, but most Scientologists are actually not in the church of Scientology but have gone independent.
“Men and women are equal” only men step forward 😂😂
And then he calls them girls lol
😂
yeeaaahhh hahah
I think what hes trying to say is that everyone has problems and some bigger than others so technically being gay in the church is just another hardship or like everyone else,
Basically everybody has problems just because your gay doesn't mean that you have a bigger problems than us
@@mrducc1870being gay isn’t a problem in itself, that’s the difference
Fun fact: Kwaku once bullied me for a facial defect I was born with. Great follower of Christ, he is 😒
Sorry you went through that- sending you all the kindnesses
Sorry people do be jerks sometimes ( I'm a mormon)
Sorry that happened to you, and I don't see anything wrong with your face. It's beautiful
Thank you for an amazing production Jubilee staff! This is John Dehlin from the ExMormon cast.
Great discussion! ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
You did great John. And you don't fool me with that beard. You're still the same great guy under there!
@@mylesmarkson1686I agree!
I was so glad they got you on here. It's not an exmo panel without mormon voldemort. But I really loved the perspective of all the exmos here
John Dehlin, you were a freaking rockstar. Love your perspective and your podcast!! You NAILED this. The juxtaposition of you and Cardon (in thoughtful answers, respect to the women, not being domineering) was such a slam dunk.
Hello everyone, it’s Liz from the video!! Thank you so much for watching! Love reading all the comments and the discussions this is sparking
It was an honor to be beside you for this experience.
Thank you for your courage! For standing up! Y'all are awesome!!
You’re a remarkable human being. I appreciate your input into this discussion and learned a lot from you.
Liz!! Which “GIRL” were you up there? The girl with the green sweater? Oh it doesn’t matter. One of the girls.
In all seriousness, girl you rocked! 🎉
I’m also an exmormon and I really love how you presented your views. It seemed like you were very thoughtful and insightful. I’m really grateful for your part in the debate, and helping to make it interesting, and sparking some thoughts for myself.
I have leukemia. Can someone please lend me some of their "gayness" to ease my pain?
Sexy
The essence of his argument is ; I'd ignore God's commands if it got me 20 more years.
i got some i can spare hope it helps
Yeah, here, I'm pretty rich in gay 😘✊️🏌♀️➡️🌈🌈
👩❤️👩💑🌈
This is the first episode I've seen in a long time where the discussion was not stressful and was generally very respectful
If chemo made you unworthy to enter the temple, would you still take it Cardon?
Unbelievable narcissism
💯
I sooooo badly wanted that question asked and I thought of it immediately. I can understand how live with others could make it harder to have those great questions instantly.
That's where I lost it. The "cure" to being gay is actually being gay. I'm so much happier allowing myself to love who I love. But that makes me immoral* and unworthy*. His leukemia treatments don't make him unworthy, his efforts for comfort aren't immoral.
*in the eyes of Mormons.
@@silvermalwareai4047The word "immoral" is something I heard for so much of my life simply growing up in UT. They caused me to feel "unworthy."
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
Cardon says a lot without actually saying anything
It's cause he's green isn't it?
If that doesn’t sum up Mormonism… lol
many white men with shitty podcasts seem to do that a lot these days, it’s like a damn plague
But what he does say is too much.
He lacks any self awareness. His ego won't allow it.
Cardon Ellis: The moment that you called the women on the panel "girls" you showed your hand and lost any credibility you may have. Which on this topic is zero.
I can see people quite ruffled about this in the comments. For the life of me I cannot understand why this was so bothersome to so many? This is one of the more innocuous things he actually said. It is a colloquial term.
@@DHU11it’s belittling. Addressing the women as “girls” is insinuating they are less mature/responsible than the “men”. Essentially treating them like children.
@@DHU11 A woman calling men "boys" if she didn't know them well is generally considered impolite. It's the same idea.
Yes, exaktly!
@@DHU11 Call a room full of grown men “boys” at your next church/business meeting, and see how they react. It’s rude, pure and simple.
The fact they did this episode without Alyssa Grenfell is a crime
"Can anyone of you name the current relief society president?"..... SLAM DUNK QUESTION
Not really... Can anyone name the current Presiding Bishopric or Young Men's President? I can't, and I doubt anyone else on that panel could either.
Gerald Causse is the Bishopric and Lund....I think Steven? Lund is YM pres. And I know Brad Wilcox is in the Ym Presidency...I don't know who the RS pres is off the top of my head. I'd have to look her up.
Ask any American who the first 5 presidents of the US are 😂
I’m not American btw
Yep! She’s soooo important which is why we have no idea what her name is. Also, the hosts of the mormon podcast (K and C) know the names of the top male leadership…please.
Tehutli, how’s listing 5 national presidents from centuries ago related to mormons claiming not to know the names of their top CURRENT church leaders? Try again.
Hi, it's Dillan (the episode spelled it Dillian) from the video. I had a wonderful experience filming this and am thankful for all of the kind words spoken about the wonderful people I met on that set, including Bella, who is indeed a sweetheart and true MVP of this video.
Loved your imput and commentary on the mormon stories react video! Hope to see your story on the podcast sometime. (As well as Bella and tembers stories)
@@americandurak5282Thank you. Being able to share my story on Mormon Stories would be an honor and privilege.
You did a really great job and I valued your contributions to the discussion. Id love to hear your story on MSP!
@@ashleyclawson333Thanks so much Ashley! I'd love to. We'll see what the future holds.
You were GREAT Dillan! You deserved more screen time❤️
Cardon is really making the “separate but equal” argument 🥴
no he said in fact women have "preferential treatment"!!!! lol
This comment is severely underrated ❤
@dazedneptune So is every domestic violence law. There is no reason to treat people from different races differently, but it's literally impossible to treat men and women the same way in all aspects. No woman would even want that.
That's the argument the (Big C) Church makes. Women are separate but equal. Separate from authority but seem necessary for child rearing.
Leukemia isn't inflicted by hateful people. Homophobic hate is inflicted by people
I love that only 2 MEN stepped forward on the "Women are equal" in the church. LOL
To be fair there was only 1 woman in that group 😂 maybe if there was another woman they'd have a chance lol
Yeah as a woman, if I was on that panel I would have absolutely said it’s equal.
@@debgal26big yikes
@@beato1733 why do you say yikes?
@@debgal26 all people are equal, but some people are more equal
Cardon staring Bella down is all I needed to see about his thoughts on women. I was really frustrated when he was sarcastic and glib with her. Like he felt it was his duty to correct her.
Oh he was waiting and ready to POUNCE and it made my skin crawl
The infighting on the Mormon side that didn't exist for ExMos said everything
Again you guys are reading into small stuff like this way too much. I swear, gen x and millennials are so soft. You’re saying he gave someone a bad look so that means he doesn’t treat his wife well
Sure, his thoughts on all woman.
It was like he switched to in-group communication for a quick second - you could see it in Bella's reaction too. Loved the women joining her voice immediately
“If everything is a cult, nothing is a cult”
I think that could apply to Mormonism as well; if everything is revelation, then nothing is revelation.
👏👏👏👏
But Latter-day Saints don’t consider everything revelation. There’s like 4 books, and that’s it.
If everything is a cult than the world cult IS meaningless. You hear the word "cult" and associate it with poisoned Kool aid. But if the definition of cult also includes Star wars fans, then "cult" loses its edge.
@@lisajones1438 there is a difference between a Star Wars fan and a cult.
@@radybay9088 I agree. But for the sake of argument if the definition of cult includes everything, it means nothing
Thanks!
Cardon is amazingly condescending, and the worst part is I don’t think he means it at all.
Also, the leukaemia/homosexuality comparison was wild.
It hurts that much more when you realize that they truly haven't even attempted at understanding why it might be considered harmful. You've run all of the scenarios in your head for years, the ifs ands and buts plus the what if that was the case, while they were busy chopping carrots and singing hymns.
He’s in too deep
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
@@KnuttyEntertainmentit’s super annoying that you post this on nearly every comment.
@@KnuttyEntertainment with every respect, nothing you’ve said has altered how it came across. I appreciate you feeling a need to better express Cardon’s point for him, but it still felt off base.
His wanting to trade off leukaemia for Tember’s “gayness” as he put it felt incredibly naive and diminishing of what it is like to experience prejudice as a gay individual. I’m sure he does want to live longer, and it’s bloody awful he had to go through that, but I can assure you he absolutely does not want to deal with what some of us have to experience.
I also disagree that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals. I’m not sure how you can speak for every church and congregation throughout the world with enough confidence to know that.
Kwaku defending racists who didn't want him to be part of their church hurts my black soul.
The reinterpretation of the skin of blackness is also wild.
It’s ridiculous and they fully well know they’re wrong. They just can’t admit it. I’ve seen interviews of ex-mo native Americans who were told their skin would lighten if they lived the gospel.
@@ksparks689no one was told that. Just stop.
@@swarlesbarkely2449wouldn't be surprising if true
@@swarlesbarkely2449 there are interviews of people who said it happened to them. I heard stuff like that all the time in the 80’s growing up in the church.
@@ksparks689 well it doesn't happen. Those are one of those myths that need to be squashed. It doesn't happen.
The attenpt at justifying the "skin of blackness" verse was so laughable, you can tell even they knew it was cope lol
They’re acting like the Book of Mormon was made in the when the Bible
was made 🤣🤣 when in reality, it was made in the 1800s.
Such a terrible gaslighting attempt
I used to go to an LDS church just to play basketball. Walking thru the church and experiencing the vibe was eye opening and felt super cookie cutter. It made me nervous. But the people were extremely nice. Those Mormon boys can play
I would love an episode of “I changed my mind/stance” and bring ppl back who have flipped to the opposing side based off these conversations
That'd be rad
Id love to see this.
Love how John could just cite his own peer reviewed study from his dissertation when someone argued with his statistics hahaha
“No actually you’re wrong because I literally conducted an entire study disproving you” is such a power move on his part 😭 I love John so much
Can you link that part of the video?
@@Lousysuperior14:34 is the timestamp
Except for his study doesn’t even actually say that. True early statistics say 51% and time will tell from there, but his paper just “projects” that it will be 70% for seemingly no reason other than to prove the obvious biases he has.
Not to mention he makes this argument in front of somebody in a mixed orientation marriage. All of the people here who didn’t like whenever facts and statistics were used by Cardon in the face of the “feelings” of the ex Mormons there were pretty quiet about what they would typically consider “violence” in the form of saying that the person they’ve decided to pursue marriage with isn’t going to work out statistically.
@@KDisforWHIMPS It is clear you have your mind set! And thats okay! If you ever are curious about what his reseach actually is you should go and read it! There is very compelling evidence based on the information he got on the 1200 participants to suggest mixed orientation marriages are unhealthy. :) But by all means if the single guy up there telling you that his marriage is fine is super compelling to you I then wont argue.
John's energy just seems so comforting and genuine.
I’ve seen some of his stuff and he gives me the creeps. Many red flags with that guy.
@@iliketurtles511 damn really? I guess you can never judge a book by it's cover
@@iliketurtles511 In what way? Or does he just say uncomfortable truths?
@@w0ody16 No it’s more the inappropriate things he kind of glazes over. They’re big red flags to me.
@@iliketurtles511 Can you elaborate? I am not sure I follow. I assume you mean when he covers gross misconduct by the Mormon church he doesn't get super worked up about it? I think it's just his style. It's a professional way of talking about serious topics without putting off those who aren't keen to hear about the misdeeds of the Mormon church.
But his podcast DOES cover the inappropriate things the church does. He just speaks calmly and directly about it when interviewing his guests. It's a responsible style as a host.
John (from Mormon stories podcast) is such an inspiration.
"Men and women are equal in the church.": Only men agree.
Have you read the Bible? Women are not supposed to lead in Christianity.
It's because equality is not a monolithic term.
I'm a woman and I agree
Equality doesn't mean we do the same things, we all have different roles that are equally important
No offense, but I have seen Mormon teachings that clearly show women underneath men, and heard teachings that it is up to the husband to give the wife her secret name. @@ElsaLouiseSinger
What is a woman? If you can't answer this basic question, your point is moot.
“I GOT A QUESTION FOE YOU GIRLS” how they didn’t rip him to shreds
Once had a professor who called out everyone who used the term "girls". He was awesome.
You can see Bella questioning Mormonism as this video continues , I’m glad she had this space to feel safe enough to question her truth , would be curious to see where she is at after some time
I also think it was an accurate representation of Mormon membership; not all of the members are 100% on board with what their church does, just like any other religion.
Why would you not be 100 percent on board with your church?@@murraymanitos
@@adubs9864because the majority of people in a religion or church are only there because they were indoctrinated from birth by their family/community. Most people don’t choose the religion they follow or practice. So when someone who’s only in that religion because they had gotten used to being brainwashed by what their family and community says starts hearing other POVs, it’s likely for them to start thinking for themselves and questioning the things they always heard but never really understood.
@@adubs9864 Because not every member of a religion is going to believe 100% of what they're told to believe or have completely identical interpretations and experiences.
@@adubs9864because being 100% on board with what a top down power structure is feeding you is literally why people call Mormonism a cult.
Huge fan and long time listener of John, so proud of what he did here
Cardon really tried to make himself the victim there didn’t he 🤣🤣🤣
When you fast forward 60 seconds and Cardon is STILL talking
and apparently they cut out a ton of his mansplaining to get 3 hours of filming down to this length!
@@VerbenaComfreyNot surprised 🤦♀️
The mental gymnastics of skin of blackness is astounding! lol!
The LDS church is vigorously gas lighting the 20 and under crowd that the BoM meant skin of blackness as a metaphor and not actual black skin. Problem is that many prophets over the pulpit and in writing have said skin is skin. Very racist.
The "it's a well-known biblical idiom" got me. No, no sir it isn't!
Mental gymnastics is a perfect way to describe the entirety of Mormon apologetics. You nailed it.
What other kind of "SKIN" is there? 😂😂😂
That was actually insane 😂😂
Like no it was a metaphor... wait no it might be real but not... Black is an idiom... But over here they said white ppl.... Black is a skin!
It was a lot 😭
Meanwhile the psychologist said "but the book says this.... 🤔"