I would really like it if we could break the "judeo-christian" narrative and have a jews vs christians episode. Christians love to use "judeo-christian" to explain Christian beliefs that don't at all represent Judaism.
@@YoYoWaddupBro Your defensiveness speaks volumes. For anyone reading this thread, look into memory holed topics such as: The deliberate attack on the USS Liberty. The Lavon Affair. The LA Weisberg Scandal. The "'Catholic"' Immigration League. The Lawyers Guild (and their funders). The child trafficking rings owned and run by the IDF operating in South America after Ukraine got too much State Department attention in the early '10s. The connection between Jeffrey Epstein and the **ws who control the computer system used by federal law enforcement. And last, but certainly not least, the people who ran the FTX scam and where that money was funneled.
@@OntheOtherHandVideos From the way he spoke about it, it sounded more like his fulfillment comes from completing tasks placed on him by the church rather than something that would just come naturally to him.
@@tefanyharward6614 is he bi or just gay? Cause if he’s just gay, does it not hurt to think that he may not be sexually attracted to you? I don’t ask this to hurt your feelings, just genuinely curious because this is a very unique situation. I am an ex mormon btw
I was once a Mormon. I could identify other organizations like Scientology or Jehovah's Witness as "cults" or otherwise harmful religions, but it took a long time for me to recognize my own religion as such. Childhood indoctrination can be really tough to beat.
The word is so loosely defined though. At this point, it seems less of an actual statement and more of a perjorative that means almost nothing at this point
@@GENGreat job moderating. Just curious why you guys were bringing up statistics and definitions for the ex-mormon side, but non for the Mormon side? It seemed one sided due to that.
@@aluf2567as a non-mormon, there wasn't really a point in the video where the mormon side brought up a statistic or jargon word needing further explanation or understanding. the non-mormon side mentioned a specific passage without quoting in full, so showing the quote on screen helped contextualise the interpretation from both ends for me as someone unfamiliar with the passage being discussed. Was there an instance you felt needed on-screen contextualisation from the mormon side?
The fact that Cardon developed an “I’m suffering, so why shouldn’t the rest of the world suffer with me?” mindset instead of an “I’m suffering, but that doesn’t mean that others have to” mindset after getting diagnosed with leukaemia is very telling of the kind of person he is
The girl in the blue turtleneck seems like she’s highly confused in what she believes it like every single time she’s partly agreeing with the ex-Mormon side, but just falling back on her faith
You could see the sheer hope on the ex-mormon womans face as she talked directly to a CONSCIOUS and AWARE mormon woman. That girl is waking up to the atrocities that go on there...
she’s a convert and has only been in the church for 5 years. on the mormon stories podcast they watched the video back and talked about how bella went out with them afterwards (she was the only mormon who decided to join them) and she told them she had felt a little embarrassed and she wanted to switch to their side.
It's the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance. She'll probably be out in the next few years. It's hard to keep convincing yourself it's true once you start to see the light.
I’m 16 I can name her, her name is sister Johnson. The reason they may not know is because she was called just over a year ago and has only spoke a few times. I bet most people can’t name the young men’s president either
@@austinjefferies9795I think that’s the point. She’s arguably the most powerful woman in our church and she has barely been given the chance to speak. She doesn’t even get to choose when she will speak to the members: men choose that. The prophet and his counselors and all the apostles speak to all the members at least 2-3 times a year. I know the desire to defend the church is so strong, but you have to think about this non-member perspectives. Imagine a workplace where the ceo, the board, and the managers were only held by men and their were rules in place to keep woman from those jobs. It would be super sexist. Members don’t feel that about the church because there is a spiritual side where the promised blessings are more equal but for those who don’t believe the church’s claims on future blessings the here and now just looks like a backdated sexist organization.
“when i think of a cult, i think of an organisation that is really controlling and they dont let you exercise freedom or autonomy” my friend, that is what mormonism does
And Cardon’s arguments about how, for example, Apple is a cult…and it is!! Cult comes from culture and not all cults are bad OR are created equal. That’s why things like the BITE model help to codify whether it’s a bad cult or simply a mass following cult where no one loses the ability to choose to differently (like buying Android).
Exactly. I was taught to always censor my own thoughts and never even temporarily entertain even the hypothetical possiblity that the church isn't true. And then they commanded me to wear their special underwear, never have coffee, tea, alcohol, donate thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of time. They pressured me to pay to go on a mission and endure incredible abuse while being incomunicado with my family and never having privacy, access to outside information, or my passport, for two years. They controlled every major decision of my life. And they achieved all this control over my life through indoctrination, shame, and those mental blinders they purposely installed in my mind. It's definitely a cult.
Yes, nailed it! And having leukemia is no different than having leukemia in the church, probably easier in the church just because of the community help, depending on one's ward of course.
“I got a question for you girls” is a great summation of Cardon’s apathy toward what women actually desire, to be treated like equal adults… not “girls”
Yeah they need to call us Lords and we call them ladies. We need to remove guys, boys, dudes, chaps, blokes, bros, for boys and girls, gals, chicks, misses, sister from our vocabulary and use more sophisticated titles like Men Lord, your highness, Dukes, Misters, Masters for men and Women, Ladies, Your Highness, Madame, Dames, and Mistresses for women. Then none of us would feel infantile.
@@DanielRodriguez-kl7ulyeah but at least they make sense in order for society to function, and if the majority disagrees then the rules are changed. Unlike the arbitrary rules imposed by religion, which are NOT to be questioned no matter what.
woof. When he said "I have a question for you girls" I was immediately thrown back into my mormon days and instantly reminded why i hate being called that now. that stuff happened a lot
Rather than being critical, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure by him saying 'used to be gay' he was referring to living an actively gay lifestyle.
@@brynnaandersen7739Cardon has proven himself to be very disingenuous and borderline hateful in his rhetoric about people who leave the church. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's his word that he was clipped out of context and that's worth very little to me
A lot of emotional gaslighting is typical in religious institutions. Oh, you're gay and suicidal because we say you're sinful? At least you don't have leukemia and I've more reasons to be emotional.
cardon shows exactly the type of person that the church develops, my dad is so much like him. these men refuse to change and are so difficult to have a relationship with
Could it be that, instead of Cardon, you are the one who is so much like your father and that you are no more willing to change than he is ??? idk ... but the way to find middle ground with your dad is the same way as on this channel ~ have a chat.
@midithbee I know what you mean! It’s the ones who are the most extreme in their beliefs that seem to struggle to find nuance and understanding. I have family like him and others who aren’t - the difference between the relationships are like night and day. Hope things get better and that your dad’s heart softens.
As an ex-mormon i was really interested in hearing this discussion. My non religious boyfriend started watching it next to me but as soon as he heard temper say he was gay but was happier married to a woman and having kids, he had to get up and leave out of frustration. That part alone is just so sad
I don't understand why people can't believe someone when they say they are happy. If I can beleive someone living a gay lifestyle even though I don't align with it morally, why can someone who doesn't agree with his decisions say he's being paid off or brainwashed somehow. That math isn't mathing.
Probably because he's a moral person with a conscience and a brain. Cardon seems like the human being equivalent of a flaming brown bag on your doorstep.
@@FWWillis Not being able to have biological children with a homosexual partner is pretty hard. We are kind of hard coded to want to have kids of our own.
Here’s another one for you. Tember: the priesthood ban was not doctrine. John: The first presidency said it was. Cardon: JOSEPH SMITH BAPTIZED BLACK PEOPLE
“I am a firm believer in slavery , if a master has a Negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.” - Brigham Young speaking before territorial lawmakers in 1852
Thhaaankkkkkkkk yooouuuu mybwhoke experience wrapped up in one sentence while learning about mormonism and going to churches. Noone could answer that question and they had a blackkk mormon call me to try to help me understand but he flatlined at the response also...their racist thats that
I pushed myself to watch their podcast reaction to the video and it was excruciating, they were so condescending, kept only referring to Jillian as “green shirt girl” or the lesbian. It was gross.
I love how John says he has a PHD and personally interviewed 1,600 current and ex-Mormons, gave his findings and then Tember says no because that’s not what he’s experienced 💀
Just wait till you hear how John recently had someone secretly follow and spy on a gay couple at church to see if they would be able to take the sacrament. After seeing they could, he made a RUclips video about it and used a photo of the gay couple for the video image without their permission. John may outwardly seem like he cares, but he's turned his disdain for the LDS church into his own personal money making machine. He constantly hassles his followers for donations. Whether they realize it or not, those who choose to follow and donate to John have simply traded in one religion for another.
@@Old_and_Wise how is that relevant to tember completely disregarding other people's experiences? that has nothing to do with john. nice attempt to pathetically redirect.
@@chlyri John’s doctoral research centered on mental health outcomes of gay LDS members who entered into mixed-orientation marriages. What he found was that on the whole the group could expect worse mental health outcomes than people dealing with chronic illness e.g. Lupus. So when Tember says happy, that’s fine for him but it’s dangerous to tell other gay Mormons they can do that too and be happy. The current LDS handbook of instructions actually has stepped back from having bishops recommend gay members pursue heterosexual relationships, this is a change from even a few years ago.
Not to mention that it feels very sad that he identifies as gay in a heterosexual marriage. Neither he or his wife can feel what a fulfilling, fully attracted sex life is like.
how can kwaku say mormonism can't be a cult because it's 'not controlling' literally straight after tember said that he is gay but married to a woman because being gay isn't allowed in the church
Jillian had so many comments that were just amazing, loved her and what she had to say, I was also so happy that she called out Cardon’s manipulative guilt tactic when talking about homophobia/queer people in the church, comparing leukemia with homosexuality is implying that homosexuality is the same as an illness. A horrible comparison and a very insensitive hypothetical to make. Not only that but he isn’t treated differently/poorly in church for having leukemia, it’s just not the same at all.
It's very telling that the one mormon woman here is even able to recognize the gender issues in the church. Only the mormon men said no, and even when they gave the mormon woman a chance to speak, they werent really hearing her.
They also only had 1 female on that side. It would have been nice if more women were included to see what multiple women of that faith feel. As a member, I would have stepped forward.
@@jaimeebeard618yeah I feel like the Mormon side of this conversation was not fully represented. There were a lot of young, relatively progressive, relatively “new” and nuanced members on the panel. Where were the lifelong members? Bring on the 40+ bishops and relief society presidents born in the covenant. I want to hear that perspective on LGBTQ+/race exclusion/polygamy/doctrinal change etc…. None of this nuanced progressive crap, where are the doctrinal purists?!?
@@scottvance74 If a Native American came to a discussion on Native Americans using traditional Native American attire, would you see a problem with that?
@@EricVMag Cardon does at least two programs. In his one about mormonism (Ward Radio), he wears a t-shirt. In his one about pest control (an outside, messy job), he wears a white shirt and tie. I just find it odd how he dresses differently for these two audiences.
I'm just ugh. Ex Mormon after being a member for 35 years. Telling gay people they're gay because of the over-sexualization of society is just wrong! If only the straight Mormons would be forced to be gay for 2 seconds. Nobody really stopped to think about that suggestion.
Yeah but the bible lays out roles for the people in the church. So if women want roles that the bible doesn't say they can have then guess what? They want you to rewrite the Bible that is literally the only thing that can mean.
I'm sorry for Cardon that he's dealing with leukemia, but I do NOT like how he tried to emotionally manipulate by bringing up his situation and comparing it to being gay. Absolutely vile.
That’s exactly what Mormons like him do. They use emotion and sad personal stories to manipulate the conversation or narrative. It happens all the time.
Russel Nelson said in a talk last year not to take heed to advice given by non-believers. He then gave examples of people you SHOULD take advice from, including himself and other church leaders. In essence, “don’t listen to outsiders, listen to your leaders”. How is that not cultish? Not even to mention that children are raised singing “Follow The Prophet”, a song about blindly following the leader.
are we not gonna talk about how there’s a gay male married to a woman openly saying he still has same sex attraction… that in it self tells you how much in denial these people are
they're willing to admit they have same sex attraction when they've convinced themselves it's okay as long as they don't act on it, and it's great for bearing testimonies.
Thats not the problem. It’s completely fine if he wants to go to heaven and believes in christ. The problem is that he felt the need to even marry a woman in the first place in order to get to heaven. Why should that one factor of him being gay mean that he cant be closer to christ, that he cant even enter heaven? Thats messed up. It’s messed up that he feels the need to do all of that. It’s messed up that he feels the need to go against his very own nature just to be accepted in his religion. He should be able to believe in Christ without having to marry a woman, because the base of a religion should always be your belief in it, not how you act in it. While it is important to do what your faith tells you to do, the most important part should always be your belief.
That's the Mormon church for you, it's so weird. The guy is gay but because of his religion he cannot be who he wants to be so he married a girl. I've known another married couple that had multiple domestic violence assault against his wife, and I guess the higher-ups in the church wouldn't let them get divorced. So the lady stayed in the church and is still married to this a******. It's so crazy how much to say the church has in your relationships.
It’s frustrating to hear them constantly say “it’s not just Mormonism, it’s all judeo Christian societies” and like.. yeah. Okay. That’s bad too. That’s not what we are talking about here lol
Yes especially because they claim to be the ONLY true church. Mormons don’t believe other religions have correct teachings so why do they use them to justify their own mistakes? They’re supposed to be held to a higher standard but they don’t do that.
Why is Mormonism claiming to be the one true religion then? If they CHOSE to adopt what other religions deem as truth, then they don't get to throw others under the bus when they follow it too.
JWs aren't allowed to associate with exJWs. Besides, they'd see it as putting the organisation in danger by exposing it to the scrutiny of the "devil's" world. Also in any case they'd have to seek permission from their elders or overseer so it'd be virtually impossible. I'd be beyond surprised if the found a handful of active JWs willing to participate to, in their view, such an unnecessary strain to the faith not only of themselves but in general.
The way Bella speaks is so indicative of what it’s like being a woman in the church. She was the most soft spoken, a lot of nervousness despite her bravery to speak up. Anyone closely familiar with the church would recognize her ‘missionary voice’ frequently coming in
Totally disagree. That could be her personality. It could be a family thing. I was never taught to be quiet as a member. I say what I what I want and I'm never ashamed.
Thank you for adding a moderator finally, I feel as though there were many videos like this, where a moderator was very much needed, because one or more people would just take over the conversation
No offense, but I have seen Mormon teachings that clearly show women underneath men, and heard teachings that it is up to the husband to give the wife her secret name. @@ElsaLouiseSinger
Loved the shocked Pikachu face reaction from most of the "priesthood holders" and then the one in the suit was like "I can't name half the apostles either" excuses, excuses.
@@arturovega6522 other than this is a blatant lie. He definitely knows who the first presidency and acting quorum of the 12 is. Even I can name probably name 10 of them. There is a primary song about the modern day prophets. Modern day prophets are number 1 Joseph Smith then Brigham Young. John Taylor came third you know then....etc. There is one about the 12 apostles but thankfully I no longer have kids in the primary and my grands don't sing it.
@@arturovega6522bro rocked up to this thing in full bishop’s attire and he claims he doesn’t know all the apostles? Biggest lie since Mormonism itself 😂
In a reaction video to this Middle Ground Episode put out by Ward Radio (Kwaku + Cadron + others), they were laughing their asses off about how they didn’t know the RS president and were never going to even bother looking it up. Yet they claim women are treated equally…?
The fact that the exmormon group is half men and half women and the Mormon group is 75% men is so revealing and representative. I’m sure that 75% men 25% women FEELS “equal” to the Mormon men in this panel, and maybe feels “equal” to Bella too based on what she said. When there’s actually 50% women in a group doing 50% of the talking, men (especially Mormon men) perceive the women as taking up MAJORITY of the space and time. So it makes sense for the panel to reflect that. I think Cardon is comfortable speaking and acting the way he does in this video because he’s used to being the “authority”, the “leader”, “presiding over” meetings, basically automatically taking charge in ANY group of people that doesn’t include men that are higher-up in the church authority structure. The entitlement is unbridled, he feels comfortable inserting himself and centering himself in any and all conversations. Do I think that Cardon addresses the women as “girls” to INTENTIONALLY intimidate them? No, I don’t think he was necessarily super conscious of it. But it shows the implicit bias of the culture he’s coming from. It shows that it’s normal for him to address women this way, and he learned from all the other men around him speaking like that too. The sexism in the church can be subtle (or very overt) but it’s absolutely everywhere.
He has a whole podcast, and with one of the other guys here,Kwaku, and another guy named Brad. He never makes sense., he’s always just a manipulative bigoted bully.
If you really want to be offended you should watch his show. He’s holding back here. His explanations are very representative of the loyal orthodoxy who feels the need to explain those asinine things that come from leaders that the leaders don’t even explain themselves. Just know it’s a big church and there are a lot of progressive members who don’t hold these views.
@ BlueShirtWithATie “a lot” is a tiny fraction of the membership, the progressive Mormons are out of line with the leadership and still support and fund the abusive institution.
Claiming that the Church doesn't discriminate against LGBT people is some NEXT LEVEL gaslighting. Honestly respect to Kwaku for pretty much just acknowledging it and looking toward a different future, instead of playing mental gymnastics.
@@WishAtElevenEleven a deception is that Christianity is an umbrella term. Following Christ was always supposed to be simple. Religiosity has convoluted it. Mormonism, JW's, Catholicism, etc. differ from Christ ALONE. (like, for example praying to saints, and the heavenly mother...)
The guy crying at the beginning at around the 11 minute mark with literally no tears was so triggering as someone who grew up in the church. It’s just a manipulation tactic.
@@orisonorchards4251 I once promised cake to my kids going to a fireside (church broadcast) with Eyring if he didn't cry. Needless to say, I didn't have to bake a cake.
Or if having leukemia and taking his chemo meds would result in him losing his temple recommend. “You can have leukemia, you just can’t act like you do…”
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
These replies are really funny considering Cardon's leukemia was actually a choice. He chose to spray carcinogenic insecticides without proper protection. Ergo, he chose to have leukemia. (Cardon has/works for a pest control business)
I feel really sorry for Tember, this guy has convinced himself he needs to deny who he is to be happy. Of course he doesn’t think the church doctrine can change; if the doctrine can change then his self denial was for nothing.
Interesting that this guys says, “ I have a question for you “girls.” Was his way of lowering their status by not calling these woman clearly adults the title as girls. He would never say to these men, “I have a question for you boys.” His view is very clear.
Normally I wouldn't think much of someone saying "girls" in that context since I refer to me and my friends as "me and the boys" without any demeaning behind it. But Cardon's attitude towards the women in the panel paired with how Mormonism structurally treats women gives me reason to think you're correct.
exactly! I started screaming “women!!! women!!!” at my screen. He doesn’t know he’s doing it but He KNOWSS he is doing something that has worked. Women are infantalized by the men of the church. Head patted, “There there, now go on. hush,”
Yup. In addition, when extending his “olive branch,” he said something to the effect of “I understand why you’d want to see more women up there, it’s fun to watch a movie where the superheroes look like you!” A less than subtle manipulation to make their arguments look childish and to dismiss them.
@@w0ody16 Exactly, there's nothing inherently wrong with it but in that context with everything he'd said prior and the Mormon Church's views, he doesn't see them as equals at all.
I think what hes trying to say is that everyone has problems and some bigger than others so technically being gay in the church is just another hardship or like everyone else, Basically everybody has problems just because your gay doesn't mean that you have a bigger problems than us
The mental gymnastics on the Mormon side are dizzying to hear. Also, there were a lot of "the only church that..." type of statements. Uh... there are over 4000 churches on the Earth today. I doubt you know then all
I mean to be fair, the same happened when the gay Mormon was pressed by the psychologist and one of the girls. It’s just an uncomfortable situation overall.
@@immersion9880 They were on opposite sides of the argument though, you can see how the girl was not free to say whatever she wanted to say without feeling pressured by her side
@@exmoroboIt's not an equivalence; it's a comparison. I just don't get how so many people have a hard time understanding comparisons. He's not saying that having leukaemia and being gay is the same thing. He was saying that both things can cause a loss of faith, but that they shouldn't do. Angry lesbian just came in hot because he used the word "trial".
@@PinemartenMusic it’s not “being gay” that causes “a lack of faith” - it’s the church’s treatment of LGBTQ+ people that causes it. The premise is entirely flawed. You lost your credibility at “angry lesbian.”
Genuine question: Why can sicknes or sexuality leading to a cause of "lost faith" be mentioned when talking losing faith? I honestly didn't hear him say sickness and gayness are equal.
Comparing illnesses is a silly game. On a granular level, there are no objective means to suggest one person suffers more than another from different illnesses, the caveat being extreme differences in illnesses of course.
Like the cult of ex-mormonism. I have never experienced as much hate as I did when my exmo group of friends found out I wanted to go back to church. Talk about absolute hate and vitriol.
Wait! Cardon is the one saying that Starwars is a cult. No one else is cheapening the meaning of cult, only Cardon. Then he blamed the exmos for trivializing the term. This guy 😂
When Disney decides that Star Wars fans can only drink milk if it's blue, or that fans must wear R2D2 underwear, or that Star Trek and Dune only have a partial understanding of science fiction while Star Wars has the fullness of truth in the matter, then I'll believe that Star Wars is a cult.
Cardon Ellis: The moment that you called the women on the panel "girls" you showed your hand and lost any credibility you may have. Which on this topic is zero.
I can see people quite ruffled about this in the comments. For the life of me I cannot understand why this was so bothersome to so many? This is one of the more innocuous things he actually said. It is a colloquial term.
@@DHU11it’s belittling. Addressing the women as “girls” is insinuating they are less mature/responsible than the “men”. Essentially treating them like children.
The mormon church admitted, on 60 minutes, to have at least 150 billion dollars. Couldn't they solve world hunger with that, or at least save millions of lives every year.
The entire standing of the Mormon's is, "Well that's not just our problem, everyone does this" while also saying "This is the one true Church and we have all the truth." You can't be different and better when you are the same.
@@FrankskinOrweed-ep4ij Not sure what you being Catholic and disagreeing with the Catholic church has to do with the Mormons stating other people do something while also stating the church is true and all the truth is there. Just doesn't have anything to do with the statement.
So glad y'all included a moderator for this conversation. I don't want to imagine what this conversation would have looked like without one. Gen - you did a great job!
Ex-Mormon here. The argument that certain beliefs and behaviors are not uniquely Mormon but are spread throughout other groups such as the rest of Christianity- that argument holds no water. A problem is a problem, no matter where it came from or where it exists Also, and I’m sorry if this is rude, but that guy Cardon was just blowing hot air the whole time. None of his arguments made sense to me
Kwaku stating it was essentially just people complaining had that superior air of "just deal with it". That elitist Mormon (male) attitude always attempts to discount the reality beyond their thin walls.
Kwaku defending racists who didn't want him to be part of their church hurts my black soul. The reinterpretation of the skin of blackness is also wild.
It’s ridiculous and they fully well know they’re wrong. They just can’t admit it. I’ve seen interviews of ex-mo native Americans who were told their skin would lighten if they lived the gospel.
@@swarlesbarkely2449 there are interviews of people who said it happened to them. I heard stuff like that all the time in the 80’s growing up in the church.
The way Tember keep arguing that different forms of bigotry (homophobia,Sexism etc) aren’t unique to Mormonism as if it makes it not as bad or even okay ????💀💀💀
I sooooo badly wanted that question asked and I thought of it immediately. I can understand how live with others could make it harder to have those great questions instantly.
That's where I lost it. The "cure" to being gay is actually being gay. I'm so much happier allowing myself to love who I love. But that makes me immoral* and unworthy*. His leukemia treatments don't make him unworthy, his efforts for comfort aren't immoral. *in the eyes of Mormons.
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down. Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself. Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years. The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
If you watch the Mormon Stories Podcast reaction video to this Jubilee podcast, the 4 exmos were on the MSP, you will hear them talk about some of the cuts the editors did that actually made Cardon sound better bc he really came off as a jerk in the 3 hour taping. Even the active Bella was embarrassed by him.
Gerald Causse is the Bishopric and Lund....I think Steven? Lund is YM pres. And I know Brad Wilcox is in the Ym Presidency...I don't know who the RS pres is off the top of my head. I'd have to look her up.
Yep! She’s soooo important which is why we have no idea what her name is. Also, the hosts of the mormon podcast (K and C) know the names of the top male leadership…please.
Tehutli, how’s listing 5 national presidents from centuries ago related to mormons claiming not to know the names of their top CURRENT church leaders? Try again.
So funny when the ex Mormons are asked a quiestion, they have a straight answer with a solid point. When the Mormon answers, straight circles and no point at all.
Unfortunately maybe religious people, not just Mormons, have the unenviable job of defending ancient texts in a modern world. It is a near impossible task.
@@amykirby3136The Mormon church is unique in that there is just so much overwhelming evidence that it's all made up. You can literally see the edits in the margins he made when he would retroactively change stuff to benefit himself. You have hundreds of witness testimonies of all the people he scammed out of money, court cases against him for fraud, the young girls he convinced to marry him. You have the actual Egyptian papyrus he "translated" into the Book of Abraham and you can see it's a false translation. Every single field of study from anthropology to genetics to archaeology to linguistics even to engineering disproves the Book of Mormon. So Mormon apologists have to use the most wild and ridiculous mental gymnastics to defend their beliefs. But it is interesting that as you watch them contort themselves into pretzels to maintain some sort of plausibility for their claims, you begin to notice the same tactics being used to defend other religious beliefs, only to a less obvious degree.
I also love how John says the church never apologizes when they change policy. A couple years ago they changed the strength of youth pamphlet, so frustrating how people would say look at the changes! We are so great! And never once apologize saying “we were wrong” in the these areas. I had so much scrupulosity over some of the stuff in that book! It pisses me off that now those rules don’t apply to the youth now but they did for me. NO APOLOGIES. Just look how great we are for making changes that clearly were wrong and created very judgmental people and bad culture in the church.
“Masturbation is sinful" Exclusive prompt now on Patreon 👉 www.patreon.com/jubileemedia
I would really like it if we could break the "judeo-christian" narrative and have a jews vs christians episode. Christians love to use "judeo-christian" to explain Christian beliefs that don't at all represent Judaism.
but Joseph boning under age house keeper ok fannie algier lets not talk about that lol
@@YoYoWaddupBro How about your demographic stops building tunnels under cities and stocking them with children's clothing and mattresses?
@@FerretCuddles and what is my demographic lmao
@@YoYoWaddupBro Your defensiveness speaks volumes. For anyone reading this thread, look into memory holed topics such as:
The deliberate attack on the USS Liberty.
The Lavon Affair.
The LA Weisberg Scandal.
The "'Catholic"' Immigration League.
The Lawyers Guild (and their funders).
The child trafficking rings owned and run by the IDF operating in South America after Ukraine got too much State Department attention in the early '10s.
The connection between Jeffrey Epstein and the **ws who control the computer system used by federal law enforcement.
And last, but certainly not least, the people who ran the FTX scam and where that money was funneled.
Tember saying he’s attracted to men, but married a woman instead because of religion is one of the saddest things I’ve ever heard
Ya, how sad how we talks about the joy of fatherhood and the love he has for his wife. . . 0.o
@@OntheOtherHandVideos From the way he spoke about it, it sounded more like his fulfillment comes from completing tasks placed on him by the church rather than something that would just come naturally to him.
@@curly_bill You should look up the many interviews he has done - that is not the case at all.
We are genuinely happy. It’s really not that sad. 🤷🏽♀️
@@tefanyharward6614 is he bi or just gay? Cause if he’s just gay, does it not hurt to think that he may not be sexually attracted to you? I don’t ask this to hurt your feelings, just genuinely curious because this is a very unique situation. I am an ex mormon btw
It’s funny how the Mormons did a better job convincing me Mormonism is a cult than the ExMormons. 😂
They did allot of that throughout the debate 😅omg
That’s why the mormon church controls what it’s members say publicly so much. 😬
LMAOOO that’s exactly what made me leave Catholicism too
@@AlzMarioWolfeCatholicism isn’t a cult tho
True
I can honestly bet that if Mormons heard their perspective as another religion they would 100% think it’s a cult.
I was once a Mormon. I could identify other organizations like Scientology or Jehovah's Witness as "cults" or otherwise harmful religions, but it took a long time for me to recognize my own religion as such. Childhood indoctrination can be really tough to beat.
They do! They call FLDS a cult, which ironically follow Joseph smith closer than they do.
The word is so loosely defined though. At this point, it seems less of an actual statement and more of a perjorative that means almost nothing at this point
No
@@danielclingen34 That's a total lie and you're completely ignorant.
I have leukemia. Can someone please lend me some of their "gayness" to ease my pain?
Sexy
The essence of his argument is ; I'd ignore God's commands if it got me 20 more years.
i got some i can spare hope it helps
Yeah, here, I'm pretty rich in gay 😘✊️🏌♀️➡️🌈🌈
👩❤️👩💑🌈
Having a moderator sitting with them has really improved this show so much
thank you! It was great moderating this episode
@@GEN Great work! You should be proud of this episode - the team hit it out of the park.
Agreed
@@GENGreat job moderating. Just curious why you guys were bringing up statistics and definitions for the ex-mormon side, but non for the Mormon side? It seemed one sided due to that.
@@aluf2567as a non-mormon, there wasn't really a point in the video where the mormon side brought up a statistic or jargon word needing further explanation or understanding. the non-mormon side mentioned a specific passage without quoting in full, so showing the quote on screen helped contextualise the interpretation from both ends for me as someone unfamiliar with the passage being discussed. Was there an instance you felt needed on-screen contextualisation from the mormon side?
NEED an episode of licensed therapists vs. life coaches
This would be very interesting!!!
Omg yesss
John’s wife is a life coach actually haha
That is brilliant
@@winston8186 So is he. He has a PhD, but never got licensed and operates as a coach.
The fact that Cardon developed an “I’m suffering, so why shouldn’t the rest of the world suffer with me?” mindset instead of an “I’m suffering, but that doesn’t mean that others have to” mindset after getting diagnosed with leukaemia is very telling of the kind of person he is
Amen
Yes
he’s definitely bitter
@@abbydenison3574 and bitter people usually exude bitterness unless they become unbitter
For real
The girl in the blue turtleneck seems like she’s highly confused in what she believes it like every single time she’s partly agreeing with the ex-Mormon side, but just falling back on her faith
You could see the sheer hope on the ex-mormon womans face as she talked directly to a CONSCIOUS and AWARE mormon woman. That girl is waking up to the atrocities that go on there...
@@Pronoia_Subliminalsyesss I totally noticed that Jillian was smiling as she was listening to her!!
@@clementine2444for real she was like let her cook!!
she’s a convert and has only been in the church for 5 years. on the mormon stories podcast they watched the video back and talked about how bella went out with them afterwards (she was the only mormon who decided to join them) and she told them she had felt a little embarrassed and she wanted to switch to their side.
It's the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance. She'll probably be out in the next few years. It's hard to keep convincing yourself it's true once you start to see the light.
"don't you think that on my leukemia death bed, I wouldnt trade for some gayness?" is one of the most insane hypotheticals ive ever heard
Absolutely
Some gay Mormons would literally rather be dead than gay in the church soooo
[Leukemia] … “I would take a little bit of Tember’s gayness.” Haha, just a little, but most certainly not the the whole kit and caboodle gayness!!
This is an example of the hoops Mormon’s have to jump through to rationalize belief.
Yeeeah the Mormons lost me on that 😬
No middle ground here, the Mormons got cooked lol
does he not know that gay people also get leukemia? 😂
LMAOOO
Bingo
Double negative makes a positive, they get to go to heaven now 😂
Probably not 🫠
LMAO 😂
I DIED WHEN SHE ASKED THEM TO NAME THE RELIEF SOCIETY PRESIDENT
😂
I know 😭 and I bet they honestly could name at least 10 apostles
Case closed
I’m 16 I can name her, her name is sister Johnson. The reason they may not know is because she was called just over a year ago and has only spoke a few times. I bet most people can’t name the young men’s president either
@@austinjefferies9795I think that’s the point. She’s arguably the most powerful woman in our church and she has barely been given the chance to speak. She doesn’t even get to choose when she will speak to the members: men choose that. The prophet and his counselors and all the apostles speak to all the members at least 2-3 times a year.
I know the desire to defend the church is so strong, but you have to think about this non-member perspectives. Imagine a workplace where the ceo, the board, and the managers were only held by men and their were rules in place to keep woman from those jobs. It would be super sexist. Members don’t feel that about the church because there is a spiritual side where the promised blessings are more equal but for those who don’t believe the church’s claims on future blessings the here and now just looks like a backdated sexist organization.
“when i think of a cult, i think of an organisation that is really controlling and they dont let you exercise freedom or autonomy”
my friend, that is what mormonism does
And Cardon’s arguments about how, for example, Apple is a cult…and it is!! Cult comes from culture and not all cults are bad OR are created equal. That’s why things like the BITE model help to codify whether it’s a bad cult or simply a mass following cult where no one loses the ability to choose to differently (like buying Android).
Exactly. I was taught to always censor my own thoughts and never even temporarily entertain even the hypothetical possiblity that the church isn't true.
And then they commanded me to wear their special underwear, never have coffee, tea, alcohol, donate thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of time. They pressured me to pay to go on a mission and endure incredible abuse while being incomunicado with my family and never having privacy, access to outside information, or my passport, for two years. They controlled every major decision of my life. And they achieved all this control over my life through indoctrination, shame, and those mental blinders they purposely installed in my mind.
It's definitely a cult.
Yup
11:23 “Being gay is not a trial. Being gay in the church is a trial.”
Such a slay by Jillian 🙌
Yes, and she followed that up by attacking "wHite men", because nothing says 'slay' like disparaging people for their race and sex . . .
Yes, nailed it!
And having leukemia is no different than having leukemia in the church, probably easier in the church just because of the community help, depending on one's ward of course.
Instant tears. This was a mic drop.
Being gay isn’t a trial?
@@tressahale9983of course it is. Homosexuality is condemned in the bible
“I got a question for you girls” is a great summation of Cardon’s apathy toward what women actually desire, to be treated like equal adults… not “girls”
This bothered me too. It seemed infantalizing
Yeah they need to call us Lords and we call them ladies. We need to remove guys, boys, dudes, chaps, blokes, bros, for boys and girls, gals, chicks, misses, sister from our vocabulary and use more sophisticated titles like Men Lord, your highness, Dukes, Misters, Masters for men and Women, Ladies, Your Highness, Madame, Dames, and Mistresses for women. Then none of us would feel infantile.
ok Karen
Seriously!
He really is a terrible person
As a non religious person, listening to people talking about all these regulations and rules that they have to abide by just to exist is wildddd.
I think that any modern State has a lot of rules and regulations, so I'd suggest we all kind of live that.
@@DanielRodriguez-kl7ulyeah but at least they make sense in order for society to function, and if the majority disagrees then the rules are changed. Unlike the arbitrary rules imposed by religion, which are NOT to be questioned no matter what.
I wish i was born in a non mormon family bc it’s honestly too much sometimes and it gives me anxiety
@@asjsk8286i'm sorry for you :(
woof. When he said "I have a question for you girls" I was immediately thrown back into my mormon days and instantly reminded why i hate being called that now. that stuff happened a lot
Men are called men but women are called girls in the Mormon church it’s gross
Not Tember saying ,”oh yeah I used to be gay but now I have a wife and kids” and then in the next segment saying ,”as a gay member of the church.” 💀
Rather than being critical, let's give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure by him saying 'used to be gay' he was referring to living an actively gay lifestyle.
hey at least his wife knooows. The ones who think their husband is straight get brokenhearted.
Why do Mormon haters think of the negative all the time 😂
@@sjsjciskwmddjs5924 because it's a bigoted religion that hurts people?
@@tefanyharward6614 goalsss🙌
The leukemia trade was a WILD drop
It’s a solid get out of jail free card, many people wouldn’t have called him out on it.
Editing made it look worse. Look at Ward Radio’s reaction to this video. Different context.
@@brynnaandersen7739Cardon has proven himself to be very disingenuous and borderline hateful in his rhetoric about people who leave the church. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. It's his word that he was clipped out of context and that's worth very little to me
@@CosmicGumbo555 ok
A lot of emotional gaslighting is typical in religious institutions.
Oh, you're gay and suicidal because we say you're sinful? At least you don't have leukemia and I've more reasons to be emotional.
cardon shows exactly the type of person that the church develops, my dad is so much like him. these men refuse to change and are so difficult to have a relationship with
Could it be that, instead of Cardon, you are the one who is so much like your father and that you are no more willing to change than he is ??? idk ... but the way to find middle ground with your dad is the same way as on this channel ~ have a chat.
@midithbee I know what you mean! It’s the ones who are the most extreme in their beliefs that seem to struggle to find nuance and understanding. I have family like him and others who aren’t - the difference between the relationships are like night and day. Hope things get better and that your dad’s heart softens.
@@harryabelpotter9630interesting that you would presume to know this commenter and their familial relationships better than they do.🙄
FOR REAL
As an ex-mormon i was really interested in hearing this discussion. My non religious boyfriend started watching it next to me but as soon as he heard temper say he was gay but was happier married to a woman and having kids, he had to get up and leave out of frustration. That part alone is just so sad
I’m wondering if someone in his family threatened his $$ and that’s why he’s “happy” to chug the kool aid.
@@nomollyshereyou called it. I watched that in Utah. But he used a woman to farm babies…so l feel no mercy.
It’s not sad. He freely chose to be unhappy and go against his true self.
I don't understand why people can't believe someone when they say they are happy. If I can beleive someone living a gay lifestyle even though I don't align with it morally, why can someone who doesn't agree with his decisions say he's being paid off or brainwashed somehow. That math isn't mathing.
I have a friend with leukemia. He doesn’t use it to try to win arguments.
I like Carson. I listen to his podcast. But I don’t think in this case his apples to apples comparison got his point across.
Probably because he's a moral person with a conscience and a brain.
Cardon seems like the human being equivalent of a flaming brown bag on your doorstep.
Yes, how dare someone . . . **checks notes** . . . try to empathize with someone going through something hard that isn't easily processable.
@@OntheOtherHandVideoswhat exactly is hard about being gay?
@@FWWillis Not being able to have biological children with a homosexual partner is pretty hard. We are kind of hard coded to want to have kids of our own.
Prompt: Mormonism is homophobic
Cardon: "I have Leukemia"
Everyone:😢
Jillian: "Stop this nonsense"
Here’s another one for you.
Tember: the priesthood ban was not doctrine.
John: The first presidency said it was.
Cardon: JOSEPH SMITH BAPTIZED BLACK PEOPLE
“I am a firm believer in slavery , if
a master has a Negro, and uses him well, he is much better off than if he was free.” - Brigham Young speaking before territorial lawmakers in 1852
Er ... Brigham Young?
Bro took the pretend to be gay to pull girls too far
lol when that guy said he had leukemia. cuz it was cynical begging for sympathy that had no relevance to the discussion
Not two white men walking up when asked if women are equal 😂😂😂
I am always amazed when I see comments like this one. How can you be so alienated lol. Stop victimizing people and get a life.
- a métis woman
Are they not allowed to have opinions?
@@JerryRiverofCarsthey’re allowed to have an opinion just like we’re allowed to point out the silliness of their opinion
😂
@@nurnoir Yeah and that’s chill. Just don’t get how it’s funny that they think that.
36:21 "skin of blackness" is in no way an idiom 😂
Thhaaankkkkkkkk yooouuuu mybwhoke experience wrapped up in one sentence while learning about mormonism and going to churches. Noone could answer that question and they had a blackkk mormon call me to try to help me understand but he flatlined at the response also...their racist thats that
The way the men are “men” but the women are “girls” to Mormon dude. 😂
YES! In the middle of a conversation about equality/sexism.
I pushed myself to watch their podcast reaction to the video and it was excruciating, they were so condescending, kept only referring to Jillian as “green shirt girl” or the lesbian. It was gross.
Yes!! When the tie guy said “I have a question for you girls” Jillian smirked and I wanted her to correct him sooo bad.
@@savascha hey, do you remember the name of their podcast?
My thoughts exactly
I love how John says he has a PHD and personally interviewed 1,600 current and ex-Mormons, gave his findings and then Tember says no because that’s not what he’s experienced 💀
Just wait till you hear how John recently had someone secretly follow and spy on a gay couple at church to see if they would be able to take the sacrament. After seeing they could, he made a RUclips video about it and used a photo of the gay couple for the video image without their permission.
John may outwardly seem like he cares, but he's turned his disdain for the LDS church into his own personal money making machine. He constantly hassles his followers for donations. Whether they realize it or not, those who choose to follow and donate to John have simply traded in one religion for another.
@@Old_and_Wise how is that relevant to tember completely disregarding other people's experiences? that has nothing to do with john. nice attempt to pathetically redirect.
@@chlyri John’s doctoral research centered on mental health outcomes of gay LDS members who entered into mixed-orientation marriages. What he found was that on the whole the group could expect worse mental health outcomes than people dealing with chronic illness e.g. Lupus. So when Tember says happy, that’s fine for him but it’s dangerous to tell other gay Mormons they can do that too and be happy. The current LDS handbook of instructions actually has stepped back from having bishops recommend gay members pursue heterosexual relationships, this is a change from even a few years ago.
John’s findings of his supposedly reached he did should be thrown out. There is data manipulation and he was bias in his research.
Not to mention that it feels very sad that he identifies as gay in a heterosexual marriage. Neither he or his wife can feel what a fulfilling, fully attracted sex life is like.
how can kwaku say mormonism can't be a cult because it's 'not controlling' literally straight after tember said that he is gay but married to a woman because being gay isn't allowed in the church
Kwaku: Our church is not controlling!
Outsider: Can you choose your own underwear?
Kwaku: Well no.
Stockholm syndrome
Jillian had so many comments that were just amazing, loved her and what she had to say, I was also so happy that she called out Cardon’s manipulative guilt tactic when talking about homophobia/queer people in the church, comparing leukemia with homosexuality is implying that homosexuality is the same as an illness. A horrible comparison and a very insensitive hypothetical to make. Not only that but he isn’t treated differently/poorly in church for having leukemia, it’s just not the same at all.
It's very telling that the one mormon woman here is even able to recognize the gender issues in the church. Only the mormon men said no, and even when they gave the mormon woman a chance to speak, they werent really hearing her.
The “where does it end?” argument. Like what? Are you afraid if you give women an inch of power they will take over?
@@NicoleUntch will you be satisfied with that?
@@NicoleUntch Have you heard of feminism and the destruction of the western world?
The LDS men were like... Let us tell you how you feel Bella.
Look to be honest she isn’t really well informed so I wouldn’t hold too much weight on her comments, respectfully.
I wonder how Cardon would feel if he weren’t allowed in the temple because he’s undergoing chemotherapy
Damn , that’s real talk
Gay people don’t have to practice a gay lifestyle.
why not allowed? Is there a verse that said so?
@@seekerandthinkerit was in the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. I have 3 wittnesses.
Why?
I would love an episode of “I changed my mind/stance” and bring ppl back who have flipped to the opposing side based off these conversations
That'd be rad
Id love to see this.
The mental gymnastics that the Mormons try to make is astounding.
REALLLL (coming from an exmo)
Mormon mentioned 🗣🔥🔥🔥
‘Men and women are equal in the church’ and only men step forward 😂
💯
They also only had 1 female on that side. It would have been nice if more women were included to see what multiple women of that faith feel. As a member, I would have stepped forward.
@@jaimeebeard618 Not if you were being honest. What's really on your shelf?
@@jaimeebeard618yeah I feel like the Mormon side of this conversation was not fully represented. There were a lot of young, relatively progressive, relatively “new” and nuanced members on the panel. Where were the lifelong members? Bring on the 40+ bishops and relief society presidents born in the covenant. I want to hear that perspective on LGBTQ+/race exclusion/polygamy/doctrinal change etc…. None of this nuanced progressive crap, where are the doctrinal purists?!?
*in the church.
The question is asking if in the eyes of the religion and the church are men and women equal.
The suit-and-tie-guy is basically the poster boy for everyone's issues with the church.
Ironically on his own channel (ward radio), he refuses to wear a suit and tie.
@@scottvance74 Coz on his own channel he doesn't represent the church and here he wanted to look all Priesthood Bishopy-like
@@scottvance74 If a Native American came to a discussion on Native Americans using traditional Native American attire, would you see a problem with that?
He’d certainly make me think twice if I was investigating joining and came across this
@@EricVMag Cardon does at least two programs. In his one about mormonism (Ward Radio), he wears a t-shirt. In his one about pest control (an outside, messy job), he wears a white shirt and tie. I just find it odd how he dresses differently for these two audiences.
The Mormon side is the definition of lost in the sauce here. Yikes.
I'm just ugh. Ex Mormon after being a member for 35 years. Telling gay people they're gay because of the over-sexualization of society is just wrong! If only the straight Mormons would be forced to be gay for 2 seconds. Nobody really stopped to think about that suggestion.
I’ll never forget what Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins said on the topic:
“Homosexuality is not just a type of sex, it is a type of love.”
I love how the girls are like “maybe some more roles in the church” and the guy is like YOU WANT US TO REWRITE THE BIBLE
LITERALLY. his defense mechanism of leaping to the wildest and unrelated extremes had my jaw on the floor multiple times
@@HaveaBiscuittbro definitely learns his argument style from people like Ben Shapiro
Yeah but the bible lays out roles for the people in the church. So if women want roles that the bible doesn't say they can have then guess what? They want you to rewrite the Bible that is literally the only thing that can mean.
@@ConsommePanchiLOL, no
They don't follow the Bible! They have changed the book and also have 5 more of their own books. Don't mix christians with mormons🙏🏼🤍
I'm sorry for Cardon that he's dealing with leukemia, but I do NOT like how he tried to emotionally manipulate by bringing up his situation and comparing it to being gay. Absolutely vile.
I loved they didn't edit it out because it showed how manipulate he was.
Came here to say this. Absolutely disgusting.
Liz staring at him with a straight face said it all
That’s exactly what Mormons like him do. They use emotion and sad personal stories to manipulate the conversation or narrative. It happens all the time.
He was the most rational of them all.
Russel Nelson said in a talk last year not to take heed to advice given by non-believers. He then gave examples of people you SHOULD take advice from, including himself and other church leaders. In essence, “don’t listen to outsiders, listen to your leaders”. How is that not cultish? Not even to mention that children are raised singing “Follow The Prophet”, a song about blindly following the leader.
1,000% true. Facts.
if you don't get it forget about it
shot every time Cardon says “codified”
According to the ex-mo panelists, if you did that with the unedited version, you’d black out 😂
Shot every time Tember says Judeo Christian
he said it in sync when i read this comment
It was the word of the day on his tear-away calendar. 🤣
are we not gonna talk about how there’s a gay male married to a woman openly saying he still has same sex attraction… that in it self tells you how much in denial these people are
they're willing to admit they have same sex attraction when they've convinced themselves it's okay as long as they don't act on it, and it's great for bearing testimonies.
They’re willing to go to heaven and live for eternity! Sorry if ur offended he’s gay and believes in Christ .
Thats not the problem. It’s completely fine if he wants to go to heaven and believes in christ. The problem is that he felt the need to even marry a woman in the first place in order to get to heaven. Why should that one factor of him being gay mean that he cant be closer to christ, that he cant even enter heaven? Thats messed up. It’s messed up that he feels the need to do all of that. It’s messed up that he feels the need to go against his very own nature just to be accepted in his religion. He should be able to believe in Christ without having to marry a woman, because the base of a religion should always be your belief in it, not how you act in it. While it is important to do what your faith tells you to do, the most important part should always be your belief.
That's the Mormon church for you, it's so weird. The guy is gay but because of his religion he cannot be who he wants to be so he married a girl. I've known another married couple that had multiple domestic violence assault against his wife, and I guess the higher-ups in the church wouldn't let them get divorced. So the lady stayed in the church and is still married to this a******. It's so crazy how much to say the church has in your relationships.
@@sjsjciskwmddjs5924 Christ would not like the mormon church tbh
It’s frustrating to hear them constantly say “it’s not just Mormonism, it’s all judeo Christian societies” and like.. yeah. Okay. That’s bad too. That’s not what we are talking about here lol
I’m sorry…But Christianity is nowhere near comparable to Mormonism. Mormons are on another level…
Yes especially because they claim to be the ONLY true church. Mormons don’t believe other religions have correct teachings so why do they use them to justify their own mistakes? They’re supposed to be held to a higher standard but they don’t do that.
Irritated me every time! Like ok, you wanna go there with why Christianity as whole has problems? But that wasn't the point of the discussion!
literally lolol
Why is Mormonism claiming to be the one true religion then? If they CHOSE to adopt what other religions deem as truth, then they don't get to throw others under the bus when they follow it too.
Cardon single handedly deterred every sane petson from considering mormonism ever. Thanks for that!
Suit and tie guy is angry and aggressive and trauma triggering just like most church leaders I have encountered...
Not every suited men are like that tho
i'd love to see jehovah's witnesses vs ex jehovah's witnesses
YESSSS omg we both have the same idea! I was about to comment this.
I’d be surprised if jw did that. From what I’ve seen they HATE apostates. Won’t even have a conversation with them
Practicing Jehovah's Witnesses would be very unlikely to do something like this, and their church leaders would strongly discourage it.
Don't think it'll happen
JWs aren't allowed to associate with exJWs. Besides, they'd see it as putting the organisation in danger by exposing it to the scrutiny of the "devil's" world. Also in any case they'd have to seek permission from their elders or overseer so it'd be virtually impossible. I'd be beyond surprised if the found a handful of active JWs willing to participate to, in their view, such an unnecessary strain to the faith not only of themselves but in general.
The way Bella speaks is so indicative of what it’s like being a woman in the church. She was the most soft spoken, a lot of nervousness despite her bravery to speak up. Anyone closely familiar with the church would recognize her ‘missionary voice’ frequently coming in
she was so real.
This was the saddest part to watch
Totally disagree. That could be her personality. It could be a family thing. I was never taught to be quiet as a member. I say what I what I want and I'm never ashamed.
@@Amog16In all seriousness, Mormons like their women to speak quietly.
yes. the higher pitch softer tone of submission learned is so very real.
Thank you for adding a moderator finally, I feel as though there were many videos like this, where a moderator was very much needed, because one or more people would just take over the conversation
The guy with the tie is so pissed because he keeps getting shut down 😂😂😂
Tbh, he has ridiculous arguments though.
"Men and women are equal in the church.": Only men agree.
Have you read the Bible? Women are not supposed to lead in Christianity.
It's because equality is not a monolithic term.
I'm a woman and I agree
Equality doesn't mean we do the same things, we all have different roles that are equally important
No offense, but I have seen Mormon teachings that clearly show women underneath men, and heard teachings that it is up to the husband to give the wife her secret name. @@ElsaLouiseSinger
What is a woman? If you can't answer this basic question, your point is moot.
"Can you name the Relief Society Presidency" was the nail in the coffin. The argument should've ended there.
Loved the shocked Pikachu face reaction from most of the "priesthood holders" and then the one in the suit was like "I can't name half the apostles either" excuses, excuses.
@@arturovega6522 other than this is a blatant lie. He definitely knows who the first presidency and acting quorum of the 12 is. Even I can name probably name 10 of them. There is a primary song about the modern day prophets. Modern day prophets are number 1 Joseph Smith then Brigham Young. John Taylor came third you know then....etc. There is one about the 12 apostles but thankfully I no longer have kids in the primary and my grands don't sing it.
The Mormon Coffin isn't big enough for all the nails the internet supplied.
@@arturovega6522bro rocked up to this thing in full bishop’s attire and he claims he doesn’t know all the apostles? Biggest lie since Mormonism itself 😂
In a reaction video to this Middle Ground Episode put out by Ward Radio (Kwaku + Cadron + others), they were laughing their asses off about how they didn’t know the RS president and were never going to even bother looking it up. Yet they claim women are treated equally…?
When Cardon said the Mormon church was an abolitionist movement, I nearly choked on my lunch. I can’t
Brigham Young was pro slavery.
The fact that the exmormon group is half men and half women and the Mormon group is 75% men is so revealing and representative. I’m sure that 75% men 25% women FEELS “equal” to the Mormon men in this panel, and maybe feels “equal” to Bella too based on what she said. When there’s actually 50% women in a group doing 50% of the talking, men (especially Mormon men) perceive the women as taking up MAJORITY of the space and time. So it makes sense for the panel to reflect that.
I think Cardon is comfortable speaking and acting the way he does in this video because he’s used to being the “authority”, the “leader”, “presiding over” meetings, basically automatically taking charge in ANY group of people that doesn’t include men that are higher-up in the church authority structure. The entitlement is unbridled, he feels comfortable inserting himself and centering himself in any and all conversations.
Do I think that Cardon addresses the women as “girls” to INTENTIONALLY intimidate them? No, I don’t think he was necessarily super conscious of it. But it shows the implicit bias of the culture he’s coming from. It shows that it’s normal for him to address women this way, and he learned from all the other men around him speaking like that too. The sexism in the church can be subtle (or very overt) but it’s absolutely everywhere.
the lekumia guy was absolutley wild. His argument made literally zero since
He just wanted to bring it up and make it about himself
He has a whole podcast, and with one of the other guys here,Kwaku, and another guy named Brad. He never makes sense., he’s always just a manipulative bigoted bully.
I had to pause it and try to process lmao
If you really want to be offended you should watch his show. He’s holding back here.
His explanations are very representative of the loyal orthodoxy who feels the need to explain those asinine things that come from leaders that the leaders don’t even explain themselves.
Just know it’s a big church and there are a lot of progressive members who don’t hold these views.
@ BlueShirtWithATie “a lot” is a tiny fraction of the membership, the progressive Mormons are out of line with the leadership and still support and fund the abusive institution.
Claiming that the Church doesn't discriminate against LGBT people is some NEXT LEVEL gaslighting. Honestly respect to Kwaku for pretty much just acknowledging it and looking toward a different future, instead of playing mental gymnastics.
Especially when there has literally been nationwide controversy MULTIPLE times over Christians Discriminating against LGBT people.
@@mersmersmers by definition, they are anyone that believes in Christ is a Christian.
@@mersmersmersyes they are, Mormonism is a type of Christianity.
The dude who said it is an openly gay member ... so.... maybe he knows better than you
@@WishAtElevenEleven a deception is that Christianity is an umbrella term. Following Christ was always supposed to be simple. Religiosity has convoluted it. Mormonism, JW's, Catholicism, etc. differ from Christ ALONE. (like, for example praying to saints, and the heavenly mother...)
i love how the guy saying "and it always comes back to women getting the priesthood" was the only one to bring up women getting the priesthood
how can you claim the church welcomes lgbt people but they "might not get the same privileges" like going to the temple?
The guy crying at the beginning at around the 11 minute mark with literally no tears was so triggering as someone who grew up in the church. It’s just a manipulation tactic.
He's so embarrassing. He makes his church look awful.
Straight out of Henry B Crying's book.
I call it a crying Eyring. It's the same exact thing Eyring always pulls in conference. His tone and cadence is very Mormon, too. Same with Tember.
Amen!!!
@@orisonorchards4251 I once promised cake to my kids going to a fireside (church broadcast) with Eyring if he didn't cry. Needless to say, I didn't have to bake a cake.
How would Cardin feel if he was repeatedly told that having leukemia is a choice? He needs to have empathy for others other than himself
the last thing i understood before getting out was that being gay isn't a choice, like leukemia, but acting on it is.
Imagine if they told him that he's choosing to engage in a leukaemia lifestyle, and that it can go away if he joins the church and prays
Or if having leukemia and taking his chemo meds would result in him losing his temple recommend. “You can have leukemia, you just can’t act like you do…”
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
These replies are really funny considering Cardon's leukemia was actually a choice. He chose to spray carcinogenic insecticides without proper protection. Ergo, he chose to have leukemia. (Cardon has/works for a pest control business)
I feel really sorry for Tember, this guy has convinced himself he needs to deny who he is to be happy. Of course he doesn’t think the church doctrine can change; if the doctrine can change then his self denial was for nothing.
Exactly. 100%
this is so cringy for the Mormon church. The Internet has not been friendly to the Mormon church. Things like this just don’t do them Service either.
Interesting that this guys says, “ I have a question for you “girls.” Was his way of lowering their status by not calling these woman clearly adults the title as girls. He would never say to these men, “I have a question for you boys.” His view is very clear.
Normally I wouldn't think much of someone saying "girls" in that context since I refer to me and my friends as "me and the boys" without any demeaning behind it. But Cardon's attitude towards the women in the panel paired with how Mormonism structurally treats women gives me reason to think you're correct.
And then to realize at church he would be calling them something also very cringe-- "sisters".
exactly! I started screaming “women!!! women!!!” at my screen.
He doesn’t know he’s doing it but He KNOWSS he is doing something that has worked.
Women are infantalized by the men of the church. Head patted, “There there, now go on. hush,”
Yup. In addition, when extending his “olive branch,” he said something to the effect of “I understand why you’d want to see more women up there, it’s fun to watch a movie where the superheroes look like you!” A less than subtle manipulation to make their arguments look childish and to dismiss them.
@@w0ody16 Exactly, there's nothing inherently wrong with it but in that context with everything he'd said prior and the Mormon Church's views, he doesn't see them as equals at all.
“Men and women are equal” only men step forward 😂😂
And then he calls them girls lol
😂
yeeaaahhh hahah
I think what hes trying to say is that everyone has problems and some bigger than others so technically being gay in the church is just another hardship or like everyone else,
Basically everybody has problems just because your gay doesn't mean that you have a bigger problems than us
The mental gymnastics on the Mormon side are dizzying to hear. Also, there were a lot of "the only church that..." type of statements. Uh... there are over 4000 churches on the Earth today. I doubt you know then all
Cardon is so far gone that he cant even stop "teaching". Fighting against this being a cult with its own doctrine. Religious trauma is real!
The way the mormon girl started stuttering the moment the big mormon guy started questioning her opinion, WOW.
yeah that whole conversation was really sad / ironic
She is a woman, not a girl.
I mean to be fair, the same happened when the gay Mormon was pressed by the psychologist and one of the girls. It’s just an uncomfortable situation overall.
@@immersion9880 They were on opposite sides of the argument though, you can see how the girl was not free to say whatever she wanted to say without feeling pressured by her side
@f1nncess671 - yeah, exactly. I just felt my childhood and young womanhood coming back to me. Ugh.
The leukemia to gayness trade was not appropriate.
Definitely. False equivalency and out of line.
@@exmoroboIt's not an equivalence; it's a comparison. I just don't get how so many people have a hard time understanding comparisons.
He's not saying that having leukaemia and being gay is the same thing. He was saying that both things can cause a loss of faith, but that they shouldn't do.
Angry lesbian just came in hot because he used the word "trial".
@@PinemartenMusic it’s not “being gay” that causes “a lack of faith” - it’s the church’s treatment of LGBTQ+ people that causes it. The premise is entirely flawed. You lost your credibility at “angry lesbian.”
Genuine question: Why can sicknes or sexuality leading to a cause of "lost faith" be mentioned when talking losing faith? I honestly didn't hear him say sickness and gayness are equal.
Comparing illnesses is a silly game. On a granular level, there are no objective means to suggest one person suffers more than another from different illnesses, the caveat being extreme differences in illnesses of course.
The church is homophobic, well I have leukaemia, bro I’m an ex Mormon, that was one of the most disgusting things I’ve ever heard
It's weaponizing suffering as a bludgeon against entire groups of people
kwaku being the most reasonable mormon in a couple segments was not on my 2024 bingo card
Utah is ran by men exactly like Cardon. So, reading the comments of how many people think he’s horrendous makes me laugh.
I’ll be sure to never visit Utah. Thanks babe
@@KimchiGang1Salt Lake City is great, but don’t go anywhere else
As a Never-Mo born and raised in Utah & Wasatch County, it's been "fun" trying to navigate it all and survive.
Unfortunately, most of the country is run by people like him. They may not be mormon, but they are just as dogmatic and reactionary
Yeup! Reporting from the adjacent theocracy of Idaho. Our elected officials talk like Cardon.
Kwaku: "When I think of a cult I think of an organization that's really controlling, they control how you think..." 💀💀
As he regurgitates heinous idealogies from his cult. 😂
He's such a clueless asshat
To be fair, of all the Mormons here, Kwaku is the closest to leaving.
@@Laserdisclover IDK I have hope for Bella (the Mormon girl)
Like the cult of ex-mormonism. I have never experienced as much hate as I did when my exmo group of friends found out I wanted to go back to church. Talk about absolute hate and vitriol.
Wait! Cardon is the one saying that Starwars is a cult. No one else is cheapening the meaning of cult, only Cardon. Then he blamed the exmos for trivializing the term. This guy 😂
When Disney decides that Star Wars fans can only drink milk if it's blue, or that fans must wear R2D2 underwear, or that Star Trek and Dune only have a partial understanding of science fiction while Star Wars has the fullness of truth in the matter, then I'll believe that Star Wars is a cult.
Damn that dude comparing being gay to have leukemia like woah
Cardon Ellis: The moment that you called the women on the panel "girls" you showed your hand and lost any credibility you may have. Which on this topic is zero.
I can see people quite ruffled about this in the comments. For the life of me I cannot understand why this was so bothersome to so many? This is one of the more innocuous things he actually said. It is a colloquial term.
@@DHU11it’s belittling. Addressing the women as “girls” is insinuating they are less mature/responsible than the “men”. Essentially treating them like children.
@@DHU11 A woman calling men "boys" if she didn't know them well is generally considered impolite. It's the same idea.
Yes, exaktly!
@@DHU11 Call a room full of grown men “boys” at your next church/business meeting, and see how they react. It’s rude, pure and simple.
Cardon is very comfortable interrupting the women on this panel.
Bless the moderator
He really is the worst!!
To quote exmo podcaster Nuancehoe, he's a narcissistic douche bro.
Tember is the perfect example of cognitive dissonance.
The mormon church admitted, on 60 minutes, to have at least 150 billion dollars. Couldn't they solve world hunger with that, or at least save millions of lives every year.
The entire standing of the Mormon's is, "Well that's not just our problem, everyone does this" while also saying "This is the one true Church and we have all the truth." You can't be different and better when you are the same.
all of the credit, none of the blame.
This is so well said and just reasonable to think about. It can’t possibly be the same but also different.
FYI I’m a catholic and will forever be a catholic
It’s the truth, doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with everything.
@@FrankskinOrweed-ep4ij Not sure what you being Catholic and disagreeing with the Catholic church has to do with the Mormons stating other people do something while also stating the church is true and all the truth is there. Just doesn't have anything to do with the statement.
The way they generalize everything is so elementary school… Gretchen did it down the street too so don’t call me out.
What does someone’s leukemia have to do with someone’s sexuality?
He just wanted a chance to bring that story up.
Mormons believe sexuality is an illness.
Like the lesbian said, the church sees being gay as a sickness.
Nothing. It's him attempting to gaslight everyone and I'm so glad she called him out on it.
Ya it was super manipulative
So glad y'all included a moderator for this conversation. I don't want to imagine what this conversation would have looked like without one. Gen - you did a great job!
The fact-checking and source-providing is also incredibly well done
Ex-Mormon here. The argument that certain beliefs and behaviors are not uniquely Mormon but are spread throughout other groups such as the rest of Christianity- that argument holds no water. A problem is a problem, no matter where it came from or where it exists
Also, and I’m sorry if this is rude, but that guy Cardon was just blowing hot air the whole time. None of his arguments made sense to me
You are correct ~ If God's standard is a problem for you ~ then that is a problem ~ for you.
I like how when a woman has an opinion it’s a gripe.
Best comment
Kwaku stating it was essentially just people complaining had that superior air of "just deal with it". That elitist Mormon (male) attitude always attempts to discount the reality beyond their thin walls.
Welcome to being a woman in the Mormon cult.
Kwaku defending racists who didn't want him to be part of their church hurts my black soul.
The reinterpretation of the skin of blackness is also wild.
It’s ridiculous and they fully well know they’re wrong. They just can’t admit it. I’ve seen interviews of ex-mo native Americans who were told their skin would lighten if they lived the gospel.
@@ksparks689no one was told that. Just stop.
@@swarlesbarkely2449wouldn't be surprising if true
@@swarlesbarkely2449 there are interviews of people who said it happened to them. I heard stuff like that all the time in the 80’s growing up in the church.
@@ksparks689 well it doesn't happen. Those are one of those myths that need to be squashed. It doesn't happen.
John SLAM DUNKED with the statistics and mentioning his phD🤘🏽
I’m an ex-Mormon and my gay little sister ended her life because of this cult.
Im really sorry for your loss. I lost a cousin and a friend to a cult by the same thing.
Cardon says a lot without actually saying anything
It's cause he's green isn't it?
If that doesn’t sum up Mormonism… lol
many white men with shitty podcasts seem to do that a lot these days, it’s like a damn plague
But what he does say is too much.
He lacks any self awareness. His ego won't allow it.
I got a headache from my eyes rolling every time Cardon spoke
certainly tried to "elder's quorum president" control the conversation, dictating to the ladies, minimizing any opposing thoughts...
I read this as he said "is it okay? Define okay" and spent the next minute saying absolutely nothing.
“Being gay isn’t a trial, being gay in the church is a trial”
👏👏👏
I think it's pretty clear from the comment section which side won lol
The way Tember keep arguing that different forms of bigotry (homophobia,Sexism etc) aren’t unique to Mormonism as if it makes it not as bad or even okay ????💀💀💀
If chemo made you unworthy to enter the temple, would you still take it Cardon?
Unbelievable narcissism
💯
I sooooo badly wanted that question asked and I thought of it immediately. I can understand how live with others could make it harder to have those great questions instantly.
That's where I lost it. The "cure" to being gay is actually being gay. I'm so much happier allowing myself to love who I love. But that makes me immoral* and unworthy*. His leukemia treatments don't make him unworthy, his efforts for comfort aren't immoral.
*in the eyes of Mormons.
@@silvermalwareai4047The word "immoral" is something I heard for so much of my life simply growing up in UT. They caused me to feel "unworthy."
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
i’m sorry but I think the mormons are a bit delulu 🤪
FYI: not all Judeo-Christian religions ban women from the “priesthood”..
I'm a leukemia survivor (also queer) and the way Cardon dropped the Leukemia thing had me slack jawed. What an absolutely unhinged comparison.
Dude showed his hand for real.
Cardon was hoping for sympathy, but instead just showed us what an a..hole he is!
He’s also a leukemia survivor but he’s not gay like you.🌈🌈
How he can see them as equals, shows that he just doesn’t get it. Grateful that you made it.❤
This was originally a 3 hour conversation cut down to 50 minutes, Cardon’s point was heavily edited down.
Basically he was trying to say that everyone has something that challenges their faith. Tember had struggles living in a gay culture that encouraged him to be promiscuous, especially when his religious beliefs conflicted with that social pressure. Ultimately found that it was more fulfilling to live a faithful lifestyle with his loving wife and kids, and has made peace with that part of himself.
Meanwhile, Cardon’s leukemia has been a significant trial for his faith and outlook on life, whereas his sexuality has never been a source of strife. He’s saying that he would much rather experience the hardships that Tember went through if it meant he would live an extra 20 years.
The point is that the church isn’t oppressive to homosexuals, nor is there anything wrong with same sex attraction. There are just certain facts of life that get in the way of the life you want to live, especially when it comes to faith, and that’s true of everyone regardless of what form those trials take.
Cardon has got to be the most manipulative person I’ve seen on this show
He embodies the LDS male mentality. It was everything I grew up seeing in the church.
And he was tame in this video. You should see the videos on his own channel! No, actually you shouldn't :D
I feel like he was trying really hard to sound smart. I'm unfamiliar with his work so it was the first time I've ever seen him anywhere.
If you watch the Mormon Stories Podcast reaction video to this Jubilee podcast, the 4 exmos were on the MSP, you will hear them talk about some of the cuts the editors did that actually made Cardon sound better bc he really came off as a jerk in the 3 hour taping. Even the active Bella was embarrassed by him.
He reminds me of a used car salesman
Does anyone else get icky creepy vibes from the Suite and tie 👔 guy?
I’m sorry, being gay is not a “lifestyle” it is just a life. Being gay is not any more a choice than being heterosexual is.
"Can anyone of you name the current relief society president?"..... SLAM DUNK QUESTION
Not really... Can anyone name the current Presiding Bishopric or Young Men's President? I can't, and I doubt anyone else on that panel could either.
Gerald Causse is the Bishopric and Lund....I think Steven? Lund is YM pres. And I know Brad Wilcox is in the Ym Presidency...I don't know who the RS pres is off the top of my head. I'd have to look her up.
Ask any American who the first 5 presidents of the US are 😂
I’m not American btw
Yep! She’s soooo important which is why we have no idea what her name is. Also, the hosts of the mormon podcast (K and C) know the names of the top male leadership…please.
Tehutli, how’s listing 5 national presidents from centuries ago related to mormons claiming not to know the names of their top CURRENT church leaders? Try again.
So funny when the ex Mormons are asked a quiestion, they have a straight answer with a solid point. When the Mormon answers, straight circles and no point at all.
Welcome to the Mormon church!
Unfortunately maybe religious people, not just Mormons, have the unenviable job of defending ancient texts in a modern world. It is a near impossible task.
@@stacie1595”ancient texts” John Smith wrote all this garbage in the 1800s. Not really ancient.
@@amykirby3136a lot of it was plagiarized from the KJV bible.
@@amykirby3136The Mormon church is unique in that there is just so much overwhelming evidence that it's all made up. You can literally see the edits in the margins he made when he would retroactively change stuff to benefit himself. You have hundreds of witness testimonies of all the people he scammed out of money, court cases against him for fraud, the young girls he convinced to marry him. You have the actual Egyptian papyrus he "translated" into the Book of Abraham and you can see it's a false translation. Every single field of study from anthropology to genetics to archaeology to linguistics even to engineering disproves the Book of Mormon.
So Mormon apologists have to use the most wild and ridiculous mental gymnastics to defend their beliefs. But it is interesting that as you watch them contort themselves into pretzels to maintain some sort of plausibility for their claims, you begin to notice the same tactics being used to defend other religious beliefs, only to a less obvious degree.
I also love how John says the church never apologizes when they change policy. A couple years ago they changed the strength of youth pamphlet, so frustrating how people would say look at the changes! We are so great! And never once apologize saying “we were wrong” in the these areas. I had so much scrupulosity over some of the stuff in that book! It pisses me off that now those rules don’t apply to the youth now but they did for me. NO APOLOGIES. Just look how great we are for making changes that clearly were wrong and created very judgmental people and bad culture in the church.