Even I, a person who rides the NHSL on a near daily basis, have to agree this project is a dead end. However, I think this video has mischaracterized the problems with SEPTA's representation. For instance, the two Philly representatives get veto power on anything they want. Vetoes can only then be overridden by 12 of the 15 members. That's massively powerful. The real problem is that most of the board members don't actually ride transit all that often, and I believe all but one own a car. This problem is worst for suburban representatives, who rarely if ever ride for practical trips (except to Center City). Believe me, there are multiple suburban transit projects all urbanists should support, such as the Schuylkill Valley Metro or BRT on the 104. Projects that connect towns instead of sprawl. But these projects take a back seat, because they aren't seen as "smart economic growth decisions", while a train through hellish sprawl is. So this project isn't just screwing over Philly for suburbanites. It's so much worse. This is something transit riders of the suburban counties, like myself, won't benefit much from either. The real conflict is not Philly versus the other four counties. It's transit riders versus car-owning transit decision makers. So what's my solution? If you want to serve on the board, turn in your drivers license. Also, thanks for making this video. It means a lot.
The Roosevelt extension is a no brainer. Would give immediate subway access to neighborhoods that desperately need it in the Near Northeast-which has quickly become the most ethnically integrated part of philly home to families of every creed. It wouldn’t be crazy expensive and would greatly increase coverage throughout the city
Especially considering the fact that the densest parts of Roosevelt Blvd have a giant ass median dead in the center that could easily fit a subway without even disrupting traffic.
As a European this didn't seem so bad as the area that new viaduct serves would inevitably get denser as the new transit options attract new residents and businesses. Then I remembered (suburban) America's zoning law madness.
Actually, the KOP area has already increased in density quite significantly. It's the 3rd largest employment center in the region, and it currently has no meaninful transit connection to the city. This project is actually pretty good in principle; it's just a shame the local nimbys forced it out of the cheap power line right-of-way.
@@jonathanstensberg The problem with the 3rd largest employment center is that its very sprawl across KOP. Part of the line will end at the business park but there is no sidewalks at all.
@@DeltaFish11 Yes, but establishing a major transit connection is a key step in making such an important employment center more accessible to more people. Part of transit is making places better and enabling places to get better over time by breaking their car dependency.
Love how 99% of channels will say something like, "I won't name the individuals at fault here...and if you do find them, please don't harass them 😭". Meanwhile my boy Alan is like, "Here's their names, addresses, and social security numbers. Call them, bully them, I don't give a shit."
They're public officials they literally answer to us. Individuals like teachers, post office workers, ect leave alone. Council, Board members? Any elected or appointed(judges) officials? Fuck their shit up until they do what the people want.
KoP is next to Valley Forge. That is where the American Revolutionary army camped and drilled. They sucked until a Prussian military office, Baron von Steuben was brought in. After the war a tavern was named after him called the "King of Prussia." When maps of the area were made, they referenced the tavern. That is as much of the history I can condense quickly for you.
@@davidty2006 The tavern in question is 300 years old, and was threatened by the construction of a highway. Preservationists managed to save it by getting them to build the highway lanes on either side of it, but it was boarded up for decades because it was basically trapped on a median island. They eventually managed to get it moved and reopened 20 years ago though.
Please tell me there is also a place called “Two-in-Bush.” And that it is completely equivalent to Bird-in-Hand in basically every way. I’ve actually been to the KoP area, when visiting some relatives who lived in that part of Pennsylvania at the time. This was back when malls were still a place people wanted to hang out, but I remember liking the urban style of shopping in Philly itself better. There was a great comic book and RPG shop on South Street that I bought some books in. Yeah, I am a nerd.
I don't see why we're even thinking about building new transit for suburbs when a city isn't already built to its potential or the suburban transit used to exist in the past and was considered both viable back then and the right of way still exists.
KoP is home to the largest mall on the East Coast with second most retail space in the country... he didn't mention that. That's kinda the whole intention for the extension to hit the mall and then the casino following it, not the suburbs.
@@scottjs5207 Malls destroy retail in nearby city centers. You can see that all across the country. SEPTA definitely needs to focus on prioritizing their city instead of driving (pun intended) potential customers away from it.
One thing that needs to be brought up is the insane construction costs. A 2 stop subway extension/2-3mile elevated extension should not cost $2.4 billion dollars
The real estate the line will go on is pretty expensive to buy. From stories I've read through my life, much of this area is prone to sinkholes in subterranean limestone, making stable construction more costly. Believe me, Septa the agency doesn't have linings to line with $$ in their pants--one of the least funded transit agencies in the Country.. The most "wasteful" part of this project is multiple studies and detailed plans the neighbors kept rejecting for more than a decade.
@@joecesa1013 The whole area is honeycombed with limestone caverns. There are pilings under the Mall that go down 200-300 feet to bedrock, and similar footings under parts of the Expressway. When I was a student at Temple U a hole opened up under what used to be Route 202 near the quarry. The geology dept. sent some people to look at it. They dumped in a whole drum of tracer dye but never saw any of it in local rivers, etc. They next dropped a 100-meter sounding rope but its equipment never hit bottom. Really.
I grew up 5 mins from one of the suburban stations on the NHSL, and it completely changed my connection with transit and the city and also mobility within the suburbs, as I didn't drive. It could definitely be improved but it's a vital service, which should definitely not be taken for granted. This being said, the KoP extension is pretty silly, and I'm hoping for something better instead, ideally the Blvd subway..
Same exact thing is happening in Dallas. DART is organized by member cities (not counties) and has two ongoing projects: D2 - a massive subway project in downtown to bypass a bottleneck that would LITERALLY DOUBLE the light rail network's capacity, and the Silver Line - a suburban commuter line connecting the airport to northern, richer, white-majority suburbs. Both were planned at the same time, both were greenlit at the same time, but of course the Silver Line is being built first because (get this) the city of Addison pitched a fit and threatened to leave DART if they didn't get the Silver Line built riiight now. Here's the kicker: the city of Addison has 13,000 people. Thirteen. Thousand. People. A city with 1% of the population of Dallas strong armed it's transit agency into prioritizing a line with an expected ridership of 7,000 riders (2,000 less than the KoP branch, but 6x the length... like... what the actual fuck...), over DOUBLING systemwide capacity. And the residents along the Silver Line have been bitching and moaning and NIMBYing since day one (they scrapped THREE stations because of protests), while just about everybody in downtown is fuuucking begging and pleading for the subway to be built. Silver Line is under construction and to be opened in 2024, D2 to be open in 2028 after over a decade of planning and - as of right now - without a single shovel hitting the ground (so... more like mid-2030s) I love trains, I love transit, I fucking hate transit agencies.
SEPTA has so much to work on. I'd be willing to bet that the board members don't even use the product, but I can't be sure. It should be a requirement for board members to log on a certain number of trips on all the different transportation methods SEPTA offers. I ride the Broad Street line every workday. My biggest complaint is how outdated, dirty and uninviting it is. Also, it also lacks visible security.
I like the BSS. Nobody ever bothered me there. When I drive there are road ragers and racing and weaving criminals threatening me. Sure I get that its not inviting to an elderly person with choices, but it works and its fast. The roads are full of potholes and annoying delays, people drive on them anyway.
@@trainluvr I'm an older transit rider, use the BSL most days of the week, and have honestly never had a problem, but there's times it seems uninviting. The rap is worse than the reality.
I wrote an analysis in a city planning class at Penn in 1969 describing all of the benefits possibilities and opportunities that went along with extending the Broad Street subway and or the Frankford El into the Northeast. I didn’t get glowing review for my professor but the project was worthwhile then and had it been built literally many hundreds of millions of rides would have taken place all these decades reducing pollution increasing speed and comfort.
The latest alignment for the KoP extension doesn't even have it terminating at the new KoP Town Center where they just built literally thousands of housing units in a very dense configuration... Smh
@@bahnspotterEU I have driven those, though for a different county, and even I’m wondering why I bother, horribly circuitous, schedules that even I can’t find logical, and routes that only run one way (though due to the laws of matter conservation, we have to go back anyways)
I’ve got to say, it’s extremely frustrating when regular citizens know the issues yet the people entrusted to fix them do the exact opposite of what is needed
I talked with one of the so-called "consultants" SEPTA hired for the NHSL project. They were totally ignorant of how or why the line was built in the first place, why it once was so efficient, and how people use it today. Yet they were telling US how it works.
It really is true that the highest demand for transit is inside philadelphia (especially in the soutth) so there is no reason that we are doing this extension that has such low projected ridership. The money could also be better spend fixing up stations on the broad street line and market frankford line, or buying new rolling stock. But like you said in the video, the board probably wouldn't want that.
Septa desperately needs new stock. I'm in Paris and some of our metro trains are 30 years older than the braid street trains but still look far far more modern.
Remember it's MONORAIL! MONORAIL! Who would want to do the basic stuff to shore up ridership when you can build a MONORAIL! in the suburbs who would much rather have their roads widened anyway.
@@eannamcnamara9338 SEPTA should have a copy of the NYCT transit R 211 subway trains that are going to be delivered this year and put that new fleet on the Broad Street subway as both have the same track gauge and covered 3rd rail.
I actually love that "Hail a train" Button, if there is no one at the station, the train doesn't stop, speeding up travel for those on the train, but when someone is there, the train stops as normal, I love that idea!
It's otherwise known as a "request stop" and on main line railways is usually used for rural localities, where it's not guaranteed somebody will want to alight or board.
In the Netherlands there are usually two lines who ride the same route but one of them stops at every station and the other one goes straight to the destination station. i do realise that that only works with economies of scale which in the US usually is not the case so a "hail" button is a great intermediary.
As a Torontonian that had their first fleshed out Philly experience recently, one of the standouts of the trip was SEPTA. Possibly the best all-around transit system I've experienced in North America and yet it seemed wildly underused. Suburbanites clinging to car commuting despite travelling to a city centre almost overtly hostile to cars. There's really no other way of seeing it than as lingering elements of segregation.
It's exactly this. Large parts of Philadelphia's regional rail, trolley and bus lines were bought by car companies and gutted in the Post WWII era. The metro area evolved as sprawl around a core of rail/transit ready urban bones. Ironically, all the towns that are along the old main line are gentrifying as even drivers like the hybrid travel of having trains and buses in addition to cars, so that commuting to center city is easier than having to take a car and deal with parking meters and traffic, etc. Philly really has everything it needs infrastructurally to have world class transit, but pisses around necessary changes like restoring Regional Rail, fixing bus routes and making more viable schedules. It's annoying.
@@Joshwalsh2009 agree 100%. im pretty sure philly is going to be redesigning their bus schedules, and doing one itsy-bitsy restoration to wawa, but it is nowhere near enough.
KoP is next to Valley Forge. That is where the American Revolutionary Army camped and drilled. They sucked until a Prussian military officer, Baron von Steuben was brought in. After the war a tavern was named after him called the "King of Prussia." When maps of the area were made, they referenced the tavern. That is as much of the history I can condense quickly for you.
I can think of one worse project, where the car-strangled north shore communities of Lake Pontchartrain tore out an unused rail line linking them, and installed a bicycle path. They subsequently banned pets, and use a motor vehicle to patrol it, which necessitated removing the bollards that protect it from vehicle usage.
Bicycle paths can be extremely useful, especially if they link cities/towns. I love the safety of riding bike on a pathway without cars. Most of the rail that was converted to bike paths in Pennsylvania (that I'm aware of) were old freight lines.
I am also a bit wary of using old rail corridors for bike paths because those corridors could be used for transit, whereas bike paths can more easily be installed along existing roadways. I understand that NIMBYism is the real issue behind both, but it makes me a bit frustrated to see rail infrastructure be torn out.
That explains how and why SEPTA is so stuck in the 1960s and 70s. It's such a weird anomaly. It's almost comical honestly. It's almost like SEPTA *wants* to be this antiquated byzantine system that just *refuses* to move on from the past. I often ask myself how and why does such a massive city like Philly have such a backwards transit system, including the paltry subway coverage. Thanks for answering that and exploring just how SCREWED UP the SEPTA leadership and systems are.
its absolutely depressing to go to nyc and see how EXTENSIVE their subways are, miles and miles of tracks, tunnels. tons of trains, near 24/7 service and your just in awe of how fast and easy you can get from one part of the city to the next. does it have flaws? yes its a very old system that prioritizes getting into manhattan rather than cross borough transit, theres no easy way to get from brooklyn queens or the bronx without getting through manhattans gutters, forget even gettting to staten island too. in addition to this it seems like it takes ages to get new lines. but it is so much better than the 4 and a half subway lines we have in philly, a bit more lines if you take the trolleys into consideration. like they do their jobs well but it is PAINFULLY depressing to just see all the tunnels ontop of each other and to return to philly and we have to settle with the broad street line, the market line and barely the patco in philly and again maybe a bit more in west philly with the trolleys. it just hurts man, i want more trains under and aboveground but nah, we gotta make a station right in some suburban hellscape
@@mikeyconngz6034 it's very depressing coming from NYC to Philly. I think Philly is better in lots of ways just chooses to not be nearly as good as it can.
@@mikeyconngz6034 Yeah, the more and harder you think about it, the more cripplingly depressing it gets LOL. It also really doesn't help that Philly is one of the worst offenders when it comes to transit DIS-oriented development, meaning absolutely nothing surrounding transit stations.
Roosevelt extension would be AMAZING to the city! I always imagined that. The Frankford line connecting somewhere in the northeast would be cool too. With Kop the regional rail is just fine for the people they serve.
Reminds me of another transit project with a troubled history: Line 3 Scarborough or the Scarborough RT Basically in the early 70s, the Ontario government launched GO-Urban, an intermediate capacity transit system across Toronto's suburbs using experimental ARTs by Krauss-Maffei, a then West German manufacturer. And that's exactly where its troubles began because the West German government refused to give further funding for Krauss-Maffei's ARTs, leading to the project's cancellation in 1974. But this didn't affect the plan in Canada, as GO-Urban actually studied the Krauss-Maffei's Transurban ARTs and created their own simpler version called the ICTS (now known as the Bombardier Innovia Metro after Bombardier's takeover of the Crown corporation that developed them). During this same period, the TTC wanted to extend its streetcars, and had a Scarborough extension in the books. But the Ontario government, being ambitious about their new system, demanded the TTC to use their new ICTS for the Scarborough extension as a testing ground. Since streetcar construction already began (you can see remnants of this at Kennedy station), they felt just stopping and putting the ICTS there instead would be a waste of money, but since a big percentage of the money was coming from the Ontario government...they had no choice So in 1985, the Scarborough extension opened as the Scarborough RT, and recently has a daily ridership of...only twelve thousand, has rolling stock used since 1985 that has reached past the end of its life, and is home to the bottom two least-used stations on the entire TTC system (with a third within the bottom ten). But there is light at the end of the tunnel...Line 3 is due to close in 2023 in favor of a subway extension of Line 2 to Scarborough Centre from Kennedy. However, this wasn't a quick decision. There's been back and forth regarding replacing the system with light rail or just simply replacing the rolling stock with newer Mark II vehicles (in fact the TTC Board initially approved this but it was cancelled) as those options would be cheaper, but Scarborough insisted on heavy rail saying "if everyone else can have a proper subway line, then so can we!" Until the extension is completed in 2030, buses will replace the service, and the portion of the tracks between Kennedy and Ellesmere stations will be converted to a bus right-of-way
But hey, at least SEPTA is not the MBTA which is currently under a high profile FTA investigation for fatal safety issues in which the entire agency could be dissolved by a federal order any day now! 🙃🙃🙃🙃
MBTA just doing MBTA things… Everything from the Green Line Extension that took 30 years and a lawsuit to build to the probably dozens of times that they nearly ran out of money to the endless mismanagement makes the MBTA the spiciest transit agency in the US
I gotta echo Chloe Carmichael. Da frick? I don't live in Boston but I have family there that I used to visit on the regular in the Before Times. I've ridden MBTA transit.
As someone who lives in that part of Jersey I think that an extension from Trenton or having NJT’s NEC extended south to Philly would make more sense. Stations like Hamilton and Princeton Junction in New Jersey should have frequent service to Philly.
@@jalfredl I have faith things will change. Big oil and the internal combustion auto are going to lose traction as the new generations are choosing to dump them.
Americans criticize our nation while messes like this exist there, but at least we can flex that we built our metro system before Seoul did, AND it's much more beautiful than theirs as it takes inspiration from Moscow's. Also, why build an extension to King of Prussia when reopening regional rail at Valley Forge is where it's at.
Wow, I wonder if the awful decision to have 2 board members for each area despite the huge population differences between them has any kind of parallel in the US? 🤔🤔🤔
This video is a little misleading about the board. The two Philly board members have veto power that can only be trumped by supermajority. That’s kinda massive, even if it hasn’t been done yet I think. There are also 15 board members, not 11 lol. Besides the 2 from area, 1 is appointed by the governor and 4 are appointed by the party leaders of the general assembly.
That is what a Republic is. A senate with equal amounts of senators so that the interests of big population centres do not drown out the smaller communities. Suck it up because that is what the US is. A Republic. Also throwing in the race card? Seriously. This is a racist transit plan? Really? The plan itself is not a very good one, granted, simply looking at the size of proposed ridership. However public transportation if done well draws in customers. However, to throw in your opinions based upon your flawed biased generalisations? ...Nah...Fail.
I was a tourist in Philadelphia and bought one of those SEPTA smart cards. They straight up ripped me off after I loaded money onto the card and I had no recourse while I was in the city, causing me to pay for my transit rides even though I had purchased the smart card.
A couple months ago I submitted a suggestion to the Philadelphia inquirer about writting an article on the possibility of building a Roosevelt blvd subway. They wrote a piece on it and mentioned some of the information you stated in your video. I'm glad this topic is getting more exposure. The Northeast is the largest part of Philadelphia with the most people, yet public transportation is lacking. Thank you for your content it's greatly appreciated hope to see a subway in the Northeast soon!
@@rachelgarber1423 Yeah, NE Philly was intended to be more suburban but it was also built around the assumption that there would eventually be a train going down Roosevelt to connect everything to the city. A suburban area with affordable fast access to Center City would be a ton of people's ideal living situation, I bet including most people who currently live in NE.
As a retired septa operator, the management and the board are responsible for themselves ONLY and not the riding public, if an operator says something to a boss about a problem it takes 6 months to look at it and answer the issue with usually means NO! They care about themselves and their college level management and not anything else!INEPTA needs to fire all of the management and put people who will restore the system back to what it was 30 years ago along with people who actually have an interest in expanding the system into a world class system (that won't happen in my lifetime)
The demise of the Lehigh Valley Transit Co. is one that really pains me. If it were still around it would make my travels much more enjoyable between the LV and Philly area. As I watched this, I was reminded of the LVT Co. fare token that I have pinned to the wall. The size of a penny with a small bell (The Liberty Bell Line) stamped out of the center. It's really unfortunate that the line is gone now...
I actually love the RT 100. It is easily my favorite septa line. It's cheap fast and reliable. And it has a somewhat scenic view. I always love looking into to quarry it passes. It's a real shame that the system is in such a state of disrepair. They used to go up to 80mph and could get you from Upper Darby to Norristown in under 15 minutes if you caught the limited express. Still it is much more reliable than buses. The worst part of it is that it's becoming like the El, with junkies shooting up onboard, and trash all over.
The original Bullet Cars (and even the re-tuned Strafford Cars) at full speed were better than a roller coaster! The line was purposely "overbuilt" with banked curves and provisions for high-speed rail travel. The speed governors on the N5 cars ruin the experience, supposedly for safer operation and less risk of accidents. But, what an experience it once was!
@@1stwonder788 that ride generally takes me about 30 minutes, but that's in the middle of the day. I'm sure the early morning runs are faster. And that section between DeKalb and Hughes Park is the slowest section of track on account of the sinkhole problem in that area. I imagine the sink holes there have something to do with the quarry, but I only think that because of the proximity.
@@bobdobalina1419 Yes - one of the drivers told me they dropped the limit on that stretch of track from 65 to 25 or 30 mph due to sinkholes. The whole area is honeycombed. There are columns under the Mall that go down 200 or 300 feet before hitting bedrock. The little stub of what used to be de Kalb street near the quarry was closed because a massive hole opened up next to it. I was a student at Temple U at the time. The geology dept. was called in to look at the opening. I was in a different department but heard that they first tossed in a 55-gal drum of dye, but NONE of it showed up anywhere in local streams and creeks. Next they dropped a 100-meter sounding rope ... the bottom weight just swung freely. Sadly no miniature cams in those days; I'd love to know what was down there.
I’m from Spain, and when I went to Philadelphia and took Septa commuter trains… I nearly die on a heart attack. Express trains which pass right in front of you on a low floor station, when there’s another track defined for that. Low floor stations? Is that even safe? Trains with manual doors. Schedules? What’s that? Oh and please, don’t forget about the fact that the trains were falling apart… just compared to the Spanish commuter rail, which looks like heaven compared to that.
Hi Alan, great video! I grew up in KOP (Fun Fact: The reason it's name KOP is due to a motel/hotel named the King of Prussia Tavern that I believe currently exists in KOP/Upper Merion). I have to admit, as a big rail transit/high density zoning/anti-car fanatic, I was truly excited about the NHSL extension to KOP and the mall. However, overtime I realized it definitely isn't the best use of Septa's funds. Also, the locations of the stations on the extension are in purely car-centric locations that are mostly devoid of any housing or public transit lines (at the moment) that the only people truly using this line from around KOP would have to drive there. I know the line is mostly for people who commute to KOP to access the mall and near by business parks, but I highly doubt that it will get much use considering that traveling throughout surrounding area is heavily car dependent. I would much rather see an extension for the Broad Street Line since I would like Philly's transit system to eventually mirror a more European-style City transit system, but this project is certainly not a step in the right direction. Anyways, I appreciate the content!
Yeah, the only way you'd be able to (easily) access any nearby office parks would be if there was a shuttle bus that made the rounds from the rail stop(s) to the office parks.
I am going to dissent on some parts: I think the Norristown High-speed extension is fine. Sure, it is expensive and not the high-ridership extension with the highest need on SEPTA overall but in the context in which it is being built it's fairly sensible. The connection with SEPTA allows the extension to get funding it does deserve which a project of a smaller scope and relatively high upfront cost like this would otherwise rarely get in the US. While not getting quite the same ridership as in the big city, light-rapid transit (even in it's unusual form of the norristown high-speed line) in smaller cities and regional areas can be transformative to the accessibility of these regions, which it absolutely will be here. Pure ridership isn't the only consideration to make. The problem isn't that the Norristown extension is bad (it's not), it's that the funds are more useful/needed elsewhere, which points both to the problems with the way SEPTA is organised and to problems with overall underfunding of new transit infrastructure in the US. We should be striving for *both* projects that transform mobility in smaller centers and suburban regions even if they might have high-upfront costs compared to projected ridership, *and* the necessary high-capacity upgrades to major mass-transit corridors. They are both important for their own reasons. And yes: The Roosevelt extension obviously needs to happen Pronto.
I was raised in KOP and it took a monumental amount to convince my parents this is a good idea. That said I think the broad street line should take precedent. However I still think the KOP should be built and I think the line should have the original route. younger people in KOP do not like how car centric the community is. For anyone convinced the extension is a bad idea, I worked in the mall for years and had friends who lived in west Philadelphia and Upper Darby who would take septa bus routes to work and the commute was over 90 minutes from where they lived, one way. The majority of people who work in the mall are from Norristown and Philadelphia and this extension would be a huge time save to essentially supply the mall with labor. The people who shop their will drive as it shifts more and more to luxury goods. The mall is awful but the workers there deserve better than multi hour bus rides to work shitty minimum wage jobs for shitty lifeless mega conglomerates The Upper Merion Township board of supervisors are comically inept and horribly racially prejudiced. The Township's local GOP has to print out and continually print out literature emphasizing that they are *not* racist which is never a good sign. I love my hometown the schools are great, the people I know are kind, but yes, It is a suburban sprawl hell hole with a shitty enormous mall to boot. The Township's board of supervisors claim a lot of that blame over the past 70 years and the populace constantly vote against their own self interest. Very frustrating.
Live in Norristown, and had to take regular trips to KOP for a medical issue. I took a Lyft from my job to KOP, then crossed Mall Blvd to take the route 124 to 13th St to the Gulph Mills Station and back to Norristown, to save money. KOP is indeed a hellhole of sprawl, and the 124 was always full of KOP workers when I was trekking back home to Norristown. I'd still say it would be better to beef up Regional Rail to bring it to KOP, and use buses to improve connections between towns and within towns. TBH a lot of bus lines would be better off as Regional Rail access (Phoenixville and KOP). In lieu of that, at least the NHSL extension is SOMETHING, and probably will make the commute to KOP less hellacious, as the MFL/BSL/NHSL are more consistent than the buses overall. It's still annoying though. If Philly were even at the level of a mediocre European tranist network then the pressure taken off the buses would almost certainly make routes and schedules a lot better in suburban areas as well. TL;DR Fuck's Sake SEPTA, I just want my commute to be shorter--it would literally take me 15 minutes more total to get from Norristown to Center City Philly than it does to get from home to work because of the flipping routes...why....?
@@Joshwalsh2009 They did seriously look at bringing Regional Rail to K of P, but it turned out to be even *more* expensive and wasteful. It's heavy rail, not light, which requires heavier infrastructure. Also it runs on catenary rather than third rail, again more $$$. And finally the Regional Rail system is subject to Federal Rail Admin rules which means two cars on every run, plus a separate conductor and driver. So even MORE $$$$.
Thank you for pointing out the issue of the racism. It's such a huge factor in American transit; from when trolley lines were torn out for highways (and whose neighborhoods that was done to) to a major part of NIMBY-ism today, usually with the not-really-coded language about "crime" or "city people" whenever anyone talks about extensions.
This problem isn't racism. The decision was not based on race, it was only because of the quantity of representatives was split evenly, and there wasn't any representation based off of population.
Having talked to one of the planners from MontCo that is working on this project, I think they’re hoping that it’ll spur TOD. KOP is still experiencing a lot of growth and I think they’re hoping that the NHSL extension will concentrate development around the line. But given the fact that SEPTA is wildly underfunded, losing metro ridership, and the BSL stations are crumbling, I’d rather have them spend the money on just repairing and upgrading the existing, aging transit infrastructure before putting money into new projects.
Another amazing video, TY! As a Lehigh Valleyite, of course I want the 2 billion spent on restoring rail from Philly to the Lehigh Valley. But as a transit fan and former Philly native, the Broad Street extension is a no brainer. BTW Alan, is it true that there was a Broad Street extension planned and dug out to the Fairmont section as well?
InterUrbans... wait, they are basically third rail powered light rail vehicles that run between towns/cities right? .. this is basically American S-Bahn but done bad.
Not quite like an S-Bahn. Interurbans were essentially light railways. They ran on their own right of way, generally separate from main line trains, they used lightweight rolling stock, sometimes very close to trams, and they could reach pretty high speeds. It‘s not a bad concept, and it does exist in Europe too (or did in some cases). One excellent example from Germany is the „Köln-Bonner Eisenbahn“ (Cologne-Bonn Railway), nowadays converted to an interurban Stadtbahn line, they used to run their own dedicated services with specially built rolling stock on their own system of tracks until the late 70s.
As sexy as trains themselves are, this focus on the organizational structure is fascinating. I would love to see similar examinations in other cities, and the impact this has on projects in those cities. Like, how much influence does Albany have over MTA in NYC? How is WMATA structured since it covers multiple states? What's with the weird arrangement between RTA, CTA, Metra, and Pace in Chicago (plus the South Shore Line)? Highlighting how these various agencies' board members are appointed, how funding and project plans flow through them, and their relationship with any attempts at regional planning would be very valuable. Maybe you can similarly highlight a major project or two in each area (2nd Ave Subway in NYC, Purple and Silver line projects in DC, and proposals in Chicago to run a south side Metra line like a rapid transit service, and the pushback this is got from the city).
As a student at Villanova in the early 90s, I would often take the "Flying Coffin" (as we called it) from campus to my part time job in Bryn Mawr. I ran more frequently than the regional rail and was probably cheaper. The High Speed Line was also a convenient way to get to the King of Prussia Mall, though it did require a transfer to a bus to make that trip. And yeah, we had to push the button to signal the train to stop. We called it the "Flying Coffin" because it the train car sort of was shaped like a coffin and it would - as the official name suggests - travel at high speed, giving the illusion of flying. Having talked to alumni from the late 60s, they would call it the "Piss and Whistle" or the "Pig and Whistle" - a play on the P & W name, since it was run by that transit authority back then.
To add some info and a minor correction: If you were riding it in the early 90s you probably used some rehabbed CTA Series 6000 cars. Back then SEPTA was even in worse financial shape (yes, really). They'd pushed the original Brill cars way beyond their service lives but didn't have replacements in the pipeline. When the Brills started to fail they bought several cast-off CTA cars, did some bailing-wire repairs, and ran them till the current N-5 fleet arrived. There were also 5 or 6 modified MFSE "Almond Joy" cars that were used for Upper Darby-Bryn Mawr local service. I hated the 6000s but they prevented the line from being paved over for BRT as some at SEPTA wanted. As far as "P&W", that was the Philadelphia and Western company, They built the original line from Upper Darby to Strafford in 1907 and added the Norristown branch in 1912. It was supposed to be part of a much larger interurban system that never materialized. Red Arrow bought the P&W in 1954 but the nickname was so ingrained that it was actively used into the 1990s. IIRC even SEPTA sometimes talked about "the P&W branch". Also locals still use the name to distinguish it from the regional rail system which has several station names in common. At some point SEPTA went through a "gotta rename everything" phase where they tried to purge older names. They first rebadged the P&W as Route 100 ... which people shortened to R100 and confused with the R prefixes then in use for the Regional Rail system. So NHSL it became.
The part about suburban expansion being pushed over urban expansion is also something that happened in Toronto as well. After line 2 opened in 1966 the idea was to construct a third subway line under Queen Street through downtown Toronto (a line that would come to be known as the Downtown Relief Line and had been talked about in some form since 1910). However it was decided by Metro Toronto Council (the governing body for Toronto and its suburbs at the time) to instead focus on expanding the current 2 lines into the suburbs as it would be cheaper and more politically popular. It also didn't help that the Province would eventually re-organize Metro Toronto from 13 municipalities to 6 meaning the City of Toronto lost its allies on Metro Council that also supported a rapid transit line on Queen Street (Those being the Towns of Swansea, Mimico, New Toronto, and Long Branch). The DRL would remain on planning maps but its priority was always pushed aside for another project all the while ridership on the downtown sections of the subway continued to grow. By the 90's the DRL was off the map entirely. In 1998 Metropolitan Toronto would be dissolved and the 6 remaining municipalities merged into the current City of Toronto with a city council dominated by the suburbs; this as you can imagine has lead to some interesting decision making. There wouldn't be any real movement on a new subway into downtown Toronto until about 2017 when planning work finally started again on the DRL and now it has become the proposed Ontario Line after the Province for all intents and purposes stepped in and stripped the city of its ability to plan major subway projects. Preliminary construction work has already begun although the line isn't expected to open until the 2030's, but when it does it will be the first new subway line built in downtown Toronto since 1966. By comparison the most recent suburban expansion opened in 2016. Even then you still here people and politicians from the suburbs (especially my area of Scarborough) complaining about "downtown-centric" planning and the "suburbs not getting there fair share" even though once again we haven't opened a new subway station in downtown since 1966 and we are literally spending something like $5 Billion to extend Line 2 into Scarborough.
If the urban area don't want to build rail to suburban areas, pay for your transit systems yourself. Don't demand suburban areas to finance your urban transit systems if you aren't going to service them... DUH...
you can’t only build infrastructure in dense centers. that only creates a positive feedback loop that increases density in those centers even further. And if you have an entity that is responsible for all of those regions then it should serve all people in that region. If Philadelphia has special needs it should be taken out of that construct or have their own separate entity on top.
@@bcfuerst Well, would you look at that, a strawman. Please find someone who, when they talk about increased density, indicate they have Kowloon in mind. Go on. By comparison, a city like Osaka Japan has ~5,752 people per 1 sq. km. Kowloon had 43,033 people per 1 sq. km. These are not the same things.
You know it's a good day when Alan Fisher uploads a video. People always overlook the interurbans in American Railroad history, even though they are the ideal form of local rail transport that connects every single small town to a larger one or another railroad, even more effectively than a class I/fallen flag branch line. Interurbans like the NHSL and Liberty Bell line deserve more appreciation, and rail projects to rural areas should be based on them.
Alan, do you know if there's ever been any consideration of expanding the Patco line from 16th and Locust to 30th Street Station? Would make a lot of sense, don't you think?
Makes total sense about the idea of PATCO being extended to 30th Street Station. Unfortunately, there are folks who never wanted (and still don't want) Rittenhouse Square to be torn up. Another missed opportunity...
I don't think PATCO could ever connect directly to 30th Street Station. That's what the New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Line does. The challenge in extending PATCO to est Philadelphia/ University City is getting the University Of Pennsylvania to allow a station under their property with a street level head house.
Extending PATCO west was part of the DVRPC's 50-year plan for transit improvements. In fact at one point there was talk of extending it beyond 30th Street to join the NHSL at Upper Darby, because the two lines have almost identical operating characteristics. But like most ideas for dragging the region out of the 1930s transit-wise, almost every one of those long-range goals fell victim to a a surfeit of politics and a lack of both will and $$$.
Speaking of SEPTA, hey Alan, what do you think of the idea of re-building the line out from Norristown towards Reading? Is there enough demand or potential demand for that project to be worth it?
@@chromediesel444I imagine that they might need to continue to use it if SEPTA or Amtrak move in though; hopefully electrifying and placing down a second track where only one exists would work out.
@@chromediesel444 The solution is going to be to use the Reading RR wire clearances that allow double-stack trains to run under them not the PRR syle clearances which prohibit the running of Double Stack Trains
You don't have to build a line between Reading and Kop,NS already has a line that runs close to Norristown, connect that to the P&W,and build a short line to KOP
@@bobellis2026 That's the plan I heard about, Connecting the NHSL to the Trenton cutoff. This video is the first I've heard about the viaduct which makes no sense, The cutoff is practically out of service there anyway.
Two words: Reverse Rush. KOP is the 2nd largest employment center in the region. The extension will ease the commute for city residents to jobs in the suburbs. The 123, 124, 125 are standing loads in both directions. The NHSL (stop request is how interurbans work to achieve high speed service(Bullet trains cruised at 90 mph.)) 2 car trains out in the morning, in in the afternoon. Build them all. The Boulevard was designed for rapid transit. BSSS was built with flying junctions ready for extensions. Revive the LVT, or extend the Landale line to Allentown, and revive the line to Reading.
That's the most sad thing about it all. The commuter rail bones in Philly are really quite solid, and it's all electric and mostly lacks at-grade crossings. If they ran every 30 minutes and had twice a day express service from places like Wilmington, Chester, Trenton and Doylestown, it would be a great way to link up far flung suburbs and satellite cities. So close, but so far. Oh well.
They ARE. There are new bi-levels on order. But this being SEPTA, they went with the lowest cost only, instead of the best balance of cost and quality. The most recent scuttlebutt is that the first few cars off the production line are a joke.
I live in Philly and your correct about this project. Meanwhile the EL trains have been ignored and they have losing functioning trains to run our city. We need new El trains but Septa has no plans on fix its El problem.
I will start a campaign of emails and calls to Septa Customer Service asking for this rule of Board Members to change. Damn dude Customer Services is really not going like me now. I call to complain about t Septa's lack of communication all the time.
Actually SEPTA's plans do include El-car replacements. They apparently got some kind of "deal" on the original purchase b/c the cars are wearing out a LOT faster than they were specified.
America needs a completely NEW form of intercity transit. My proposal is that we flood the streets and develop high speed personal transports. These transports will be called Buoyancy Operated Aquatic Transports, or BO-AT™️ for short. It's a car that drives on water! How cool is that?
They would extend a line to car dependent KoP but not to the relatively dense West Chester. The track and right of way are already there, it just needs some modernization and perhaps some more transit in town. But even without extra transit the existing stop that was closed decades ago is walking distance from the University and downtown. Along with a decent amount of housing and some industry.
I beleve there are plans for the Media Elwin Regional Rail line to extend to West Chester. They moved that line out to an area called Wawa located by wawa's HQ. It's opening date is now sometime in August 2022
Well There's Your Problem has a few episodes about SEPTA that sums up its' problems. The city has the underlying framework from before transit was gutted, but current heads are not utilizing the full potential (restoring service to Phoenixville, Reading, Allentown etc), updating train stock, improving schedules and speeds. As a suburban rider, the main problem with the bus lines is infrequency, unreliability, and speed. A lot of routes suck for riders and drivers. It's easier to get get from a hospital 2 miles away from me to Philly, for example, than to get to that same bus route to my house, because the bus routes are all radial to center city; nothing exists to connect routes within towns outside Philly, or between towns outside Philly. It's annoying. If SEPTA updated and maximized the MFL and BSL and Regional Lines, then the buses could be better deployed linking up suburban areas and schedules would be better and more consistent.
You missed the part where they are more concerned about branding than doing anything actually useful (see the “septa metro” thing where they are once again changing the names of light rail lines).
In a dream-ish scenario: 1. Build the Roosevelt Blvd Extension. Heck, I'd have it run the whole length of the blvd and make it its own line with an interchange at the BSL. 2. BSL extension into the navy yard then turn to run to the airport to give the airport better service than the regional rail. 3. Put a trolley line along Delaware Ave. There's already rail along large sections of it. Granted it's for freight, but it's barely ever used. I swear an old box car sat on it for months once.
Malls are kind of going on the skids these days. It would be a lot less expensive to simply expand shuttle bus service from Gulph Mills Station to include stops at the KOP Mall and 'Town Center' and other designated stops.
All my Philly homies hate the mall. Any time I want to go to Valley Forge, I have to go through it and it sucks. And don't even get me started on the KOP Town Center... Actual town planning diarrhea.
SEPTA tried to convince me this project was a good idea, (lots of talk about zoning and I guess their shitty attempt at a streetcar suburb?) but alas, I shall not be fooled! Now go restore all the shit you Thanos'd out of existence (Trolleys, Reigonal Rail, you get it) instead of building new infrastructure, SEPTA. Or, if you're really that into building new stuff, build a subway on Roosevelt Blvd! You know, the one that literally every human being with half a braincell has been asking for, for over 100 years? You know that one? Or, even better, If you want to, for some reason, stay in the suburbs, restore not one, but TWO West Chester connections! The abandoned trolley, and the Reigonal Rail. KOP rail isn't a bad Idea, but... why now? Please, SEPTA. Please do better. We have so much potential and you decide to do this with it. Unbelieveable.
I'm a suburban rider of SEPTA and I can say that the suburbs have horrible transit service from the agency, unless you go into center city for your commute. I can only get a bus at my home once an hour and even then most trips require a transfer to regional rail or another, equally infrequent bus. The trains come once every two hours on the weekend. I would LOVE as much suburban attention as your video accuses SEPTA of giving.
A train to King of Prussia has been desperately need for decades! As a former mall employee who lived in the city, I can't even begin to tell you how awful it was to take a bus that gets stuck on the expressway all the time. I used to sit on the floor of the bus and look at people's shoes, since one of the stores I worked in was a shoe store. The area around the mall is full of offices that need workers, and apartment buildings with residents who need to get into the city for work and college classes. I briefly had the terrible experience of being a student while living in King of Prussia, and that was a nightmare. I had to listen to the traffic reports on my headphones, and if there was any sign of trouble on the expressway, I had to get off the bus at Gulph Mills and get the Norristown High Speed Line from there. I've had some pretty stressful commutes in my lifetime - I got my first car in Boston, of all places - but nothing was ever as horrible as commuting between Philadelphia and King of Prussia on a bus. Just seeing this project named as the "worst transit project in America" makes me so angry that I can't bring myself to watch the video. Anyone who never had to commute between Philadelphia and King of Prussia should shut the heck up. Although a train running directly from Center City to King of Prussia would be ideal, switching from the el to the Norristown High Speed Line at 69th street is close enough to that ideal, and it would help so many people.
I was a former mall employee who lived in the city as well. In the mid-1990's. And the 124/125 on the expressway was a nightmare back then too. This line was badly needed even then! Taking those buses was agony, especially when I had to work a closing shift and couldn't even get ON the bus due to the crowding and had to wait for the next one (messing up downline connections and extending my trip by anywhere from 45 to 90 minutes! I would have loved to see this train running back then. And a good number of others would have as well.
Thanks for making this video. I thought KoP was a large business center, as that is what it was described as in a random internet comment I saw. I neglected to fact-check that KoP actually was a sprawling city.
This just sounds like railing against giving public transit to Stereotypical US Suburbs - the things that, if you're not going to tear them down, need public transit more than almost anywhere. So where's the nuance I'm missing?
Public transit systems should never, EVER have their board members appointed. They need to be elected and they need to actually USE the system no less than semi regularly. That is a fundamental problem with the vast majority of the TAs in the United States. Without knowing you, it is clear that you could help run SEPRA better than some appointed official who doesn't ride the bus. There does need to be changes in the law for sure.
Great video. Thanks for posting. When living in west Philly I rode the train often and loved it. I always wondered what was holding the city back from making it better. Philly is a great city.
Having a button to request a train stop is not at all that weird, it happens everywhere in here in Switzerland on rural lines and it's a great thing to speed up services and save energy and maintenance (brakes)
KOP is named after the tavern (King of Prussia) that was the only stopping point in the town, it is still there today because the town rallied against it getting bulldozed years ago.
The intro was an assault on my gut. LIke I love the Purple Line, I'm pretty local to it and it fixes a problem that's pretty much impossible to do with how MARC and even Metrorail are set up At the same time, they've been talking about the project for as long as I've been living in Maryland, and the progress and some of the aspects of its creation make me scratch my head and groan
Thank you for shinning some light on this!!! These are things that have frustrated me for years while riding SEPTA. The sad part is that most people in the city don't even know that these projects are a possibility and much like you said in the video just accept everything as it's given to them. I used to Live in North Philly and go to school in Northeast Philly (right on the border of Bensalem). This commute was over an hour and a half one-way and required me to 1) walk 15 minutes to the MFL 2) take the MFL to the Frankfurt transportation Center 3) catch the 14 bus to NE Philly 4) walk another 15 minutes from the bus stop to school. Needless to say, my commute would've been much easier if there was some type of BSL extension that ran off the boulevard... I really hope you spend some time talking about this subject more in the future.
The Roosevelt Blvd Extension would be amazing, but that whole project is been steeped in political controversy for ages. It's not so much SEPTA unwilling to do it, it's the broader political system unwilling to do it. Think the NUMBYism for the NHSL was bad? A Roosevelt BLVD extension would be worse, despite the obvious benefits. It's been planned for over 50 years. It isn't happening.
I will say though, that Kop rail has 2 upsides that this video overlooks: 1: it is the third largest business district in the area (after center city and university city). So tons of people from the city currently must drive on the Schuylkill expressway. 2: it's a better project than expanding the Schuylkill imo. Price tag is too high though.
another terrible project is the SW corridor LRT in Portland, OR. It goes to wealthier suburbs instead of lower income neighborhoods, it misses most of the population centers in SW so you have a long walk or additional transfer, the travel time is too long, It is widening the road instead of repurposing lanes, Too much parking, not enough TOD, etc...
Well it was voted down so it won't be happening in the immediate future. The worst project in Portland by far was the WES though. It should definitely have a branch into Downtown and then also extend to Salem. What they should build is the downtown subway they are currently studying and a subway under Division st or one of those other dense streets in the area.
From a VERY reliable source: lookup Pasquale T. Deon, Sr. He is the chairman of SEPTA's board. If he wants a project to get done it does. If Pasquale is against a project - it will not happen. Simple. He is also on the Turnpike's board.
Starts by complaining about the congestion and sprawl of KoP, then talks about how stupid it is to connect with fast/reliable public transit? Pick one. Have you ever ridden the bus out here? PACKED with workers just trying to get to their jobs, most busses 30 minutes late stuck in traffic coming out of Philly or circuitously routed to reduce the number of routes. I won't defend the NIMBYs- they legit ruined the whole idea because they wanted a regional rail service and they think of the power lines as "their backyard". They were limited by the fact they could never afford property aquisition and, honestly, the new route is pretty good in terms of stops. Right now the GOOD mass transit in the KoP area is only provided in the nicer residential areas - the KoP extension will actually connect workers with *work* in a faster, more reliable way. If you look at the stops, it hits the major job centers one way or another - and does it by literally dropping people off in parking lots. The business district has also *already* started, and in some cases finished, reworking the streets to take away auto lanes and create separated walkways for pedestrians. There's a biking master plan, althought its not executing quite as well as the business corridor walkability initiative. The Navy Yard extension failed because, honestly, the shuttle bus was good enough. And Urban took care of their own.... post Pandemic the Yard is kinda dead so it makes less sense than it did in like 2012. Blvd spur is DOA due to local opposition. The thought of connecting Frankford or Mayfair to North/Southwest Philly is just too much for the die hard townies. Maybe if the promised to only connect Patterson and skip every other stop on the way would the locals agree.
Still need to find time to get to Philadelphia. The New Jersey (BB-62, yes I know she's in Camden technically but shush), the Olympia, and the United States all just sitting there. At least SEPTA still runs... a lot of the MBTA trains here in Boston are getting suspended due to safety and maintenance issues.
I literally did my midterm project for my city planning course on this exact topic. I spent more of it focusing on how the regional rail would be more useful to get there than the NHSL. But I am so on board with to BSL extensions. The BSL really needs a lot of love at the moment.
Extending the RRD *was* looked at early in the project. However cost projections were even more out of line for multiple reasons: - The RRD is heavy-rail and runs off catenary, while the P&W is medium weight and uses third-rail power. An RRD extension would require more-expensive infrastructure. - The operational model of the two systems is very different. The P&W was designed from its earliest days based on frequent service with short one or two car trains. The entire RRD model is longer trains every half hour. Knitting those two together would be cumbersome. - Finally FRA regs would force the use of two-car RRD trains at all times with a separate conductor and driver. Again, more $$$.
Now where would you build a line that goes from the purple lane to the city center? That's right! The square hole! That's what I was expecting with that voice and tone.
Speaking of suburban transit extensions and NIMBYs, what do you make of the Glassboro to Camden line and the NIMBYs in Pitman trying to stop a station.
Galaxy Brain idea: use eminent domain and re-electrify the Trenton cutoff. Put stadler emus running on it from Bensalem to Downingtown with interchanges in willow grove, ft Washington and conshy
Actually, there WAS an idea called Cross-County Metro, which never got off paper. It basically was going to be a line between Morrisville and Downingtown on the cutoff. What basically killed it, besides lack of funding, was that none of the employment and retail centers it was eyeballed at being near, would be in walking distance of any of the stations, and in most cases, where walking could be done, none of the roads have sidewalks, as is the case in most suburbs. This would require employers near each station to have shuttle services to transport employees who would have been potential riders. It also had far less support than Schuylkill Valley Metro did, and THAT project fell apart for a multitude of reasons that I won't get into right now except to say that had SEPTA taken an incremental approach to that project, it would likely have had a far better chance at funding. But the Feds balked at the cost of the whole shebang, which SEPTA wanted to do all at once... which was in the billions of dollars.
A general refurbishment/upgrade of the metro wouldn't be a bad idea either. I visited Philly a couple of weeks ago and man, every metro station entrance looked like some decrepit old gate to the dark depths of the netherworld, and smelled like a literal toilet as I walked by half the time. In the 6 days I was there, walking around the city a _lot_ , I saw someone going down to or coming out of a metro station maybe 4 times total. All of the locals (bartenders, shopkeepers, etc) I asked said that they don't really ride the metro and don't really know anyone who does. With having the appearance of only serving the absolute lowest caste of desperate, unfortunate souls, it's not hard to see why.
And they wonder why Septa focuses more on the suburbs, they call it systematic racism but it's more because of the issues you mentioned. No matter how much they try to keep stations clean they just get trashed so they don't even bother.
4:00 In Germany the same group that spent years protesting/lobbying for better rail-connections in an area near the austrian border and for moving traffic off the roads is now fighting HARD against a rail-line being expanded.
I'm half willing to defend the KOP extension insofar as it being the basis for untangling the mess that is KOP, but it draining so much away from the budget when so many other planned extensions are getting shafted is insane. Even in the realm of suburban extensions, several could be done for the same price with way higher ridership.
The KOP Mall is one of the biggest in the world and thousand of people from the city work there. Traffic is horrible on 76 and 202 so the extension is sorely needed. Philadelphia and the surrounding suburbs has on of the most extensive mass transit in the country for all its fault.
The joy of seeing Delco listed as Delco at 5:08 can not be expressed fully. I live in Delco and commute to KoP. I would LOVE for there to be a mass transit option for me that makes sense. But alas, SEPTA is dumb and there isn't any unless I want to spend hours each way commuting way out of my way just to get point to point.
Even I, a person who rides the NHSL on a near daily basis, have to agree this project is a dead end. However, I think this video has mischaracterized the problems with SEPTA's representation. For instance, the two Philly representatives get veto power on anything they want. Vetoes can only then be overridden by 12 of the 15 members. That's massively powerful. The real problem is that most of the board members don't actually ride transit all that often, and I believe all but one own a car. This problem is worst for suburban representatives, who rarely if ever ride for practical trips (except to Center City). Believe me, there are multiple suburban transit projects all urbanists should support, such as the Schuylkill Valley Metro or BRT on the 104. Projects that connect towns instead of sprawl. But these projects take a back seat, because they aren't seen as "smart economic growth decisions", while a train through hellish sprawl is.
So this project isn't just screwing over Philly for suburbanites. It's so much worse. This is something transit riders of the suburban counties, like myself, won't benefit much from either. The real conflict is not Philly versus the other four counties. It's transit riders versus car-owning transit decision makers. So what's my solution? If you want to serve on the board, turn in your drivers license.
Also, thanks for making this video. It means a lot.
Wow, thank you for pinning my comment! I hope the SEPTA board and Leslie Richards see videos like these. They could learn a thing or two.
"If you want to be on the board, turn in your driver's license."
@@alexwithclipboard SEPTA will never see this video and will never learn a thing or two.
Glad you mentioned the 15 septa board members. The video shows 11 in sum, not 15. It’s an extra 1 from governor and 4 from the general assembly
America and fucking everything up with car-centrism, name a more iconic duo.
The Roosevelt extension is a no brainer. Would give immediate subway access to neighborhoods that desperately need it in the Near Northeast-which has quickly become the most ethnically integrated part of philly home to families of every creed. It wouldn’t be crazy expensive and would greatly increase coverage throughout the city
Yea. Hopefully you guys can get it through soon and fix the issues with representation on the board!
how would it not be crazy expensive
Especially considering the fact that the densest parts of Roosevelt Blvd have a giant ass median dead in the center that could easily fit a subway without even disrupting traffic.
@@ihateregistrationbul who cares if it was, government money
@@ihateregistrationbul maybe would be but there are existing rights of ways
As a European this didn't seem so bad as the area that new viaduct serves would inevitably get denser as the new transit options attract new residents and businesses. Then I remembered (suburban) America's zoning law madness.
Actually, the KOP area has already increased in density quite significantly. It's the 3rd largest employment center in the region, and it currently has no meaninful transit connection to the city. This project is actually pretty good in principle; it's just a shame the local nimbys forced it out of the cheap power line right-of-way.
@@jonathanstensberg The problem with the 3rd largest employment center is that its very sprawl across KOP. Part of the line will end at the business park but there is no sidewalks at all.
Zoning laws will kill the ridership
@@jonathanstensberg extend the suburban rail lines instead of this monsters
@@DeltaFish11 Yes, but establishing a major transit connection is a key step in making such an important employment center more accessible to more people. Part of transit is making places better and enabling places to get better over time by breaking their car dependency.
Love how 99% of channels will say something like, "I won't name the individuals at fault here...and if you do find them, please don't harass them 😭". Meanwhile my boy Alan is like, "Here's their names, addresses, and social security numbers. Call them, bully them, I don't give a shit."
praxis
American laws are supposed to be influenced by the people's voices though, so voicing one's opinion to their leaders is important.
They're public officials they literally answer to us. Individuals like teachers, post office workers, ect leave alone. Council, Board members? Any elected or appointed(judges) officials? Fuck their shit up until they do what the people want.
It's a low brow, d-bag move. All he's doing is demonstrating why the rest of the country hates Philadelphians.
Thats definetley not a nice way of dealing with it, but if you can't change it otherwise, I guess be nice in your mails.
The weirdest thing about this is apparently someone decided to name a town "King of Prussia".
KoP is next to Valley Forge. That is where the American Revolutionary army camped and drilled. They sucked until a Prussian military office, Baron von Steuben was brought in. After the war a tavern was named after him called the "King of Prussia." When maps of the area were made, they referenced the tavern.
That is as much of the history I can condense quickly for you.
@@pcnetworx1 So basically it's named after the pub.
Classic.
@@davidty2006 The tavern in question is 300 years old, and was threatened by the construction of a highway. Preservationists managed to save it by getting them to build the highway lanes on either side of it, but it was boarded up for decades because it was basically trapped on a median island. They eventually managed to get it moved and reopened 20 years ago though.
Par for the course for Pennsylvania.
Also home to Bird-in-Hand, PA and Intercourse, PA.
Please tell me there is also a place called “Two-in-Bush.” And that it is completely equivalent to Bird-in-Hand in basically every way.
I’ve actually been to the KoP area, when visiting some relatives who lived in that part of Pennsylvania at the time. This was back when malls were still a place people wanted to hang out, but I remember liking the urban style of shopping in Philly itself better. There was a great comic book and RPG shop on South Street that I bought some books in. Yeah, I am a nerd.
I don't see why we're even thinking about building new transit for suburbs when a city isn't already built to its potential or the suburban transit used to exist in the past and was considered both viable back then and the right of way still exists.
KoP is home to the largest mall on the East Coast with second most retail space in the country... he didn't mention that. That's kinda the whole intention for the extension to hit the mall and then the casino following it, not the suburbs.
@@scottjs5207 Malls destroy retail in nearby city centers. You can see that all across the country. SEPTA definitely needs to focus on prioritizing their city instead of driving (pun intended) potential customers away from it.
@@banksrail But I like malls more...
There's a form of transit that can be viable even with low ridership, it's called a bus.
@@fdagpigj there are busses from downtown to KOP but they use i-76 which is traffic hell
One thing that needs to be brought up is the insane construction costs. A 2 stop subway extension/2-3mile elevated extension should not cost $2.4 billion dollars
The extra money is for septa’s pocket linings
Can you say "prevailing wage"
The real estate the line will go on is pretty expensive to buy. From stories I've read through my life, much of this area is prone to sinkholes in subterranean limestone, making stable construction more costly. Believe me, Septa the agency doesn't have linings to line with $$ in their pants--one of the least funded transit agencies in the Country.. The most "wasteful" part of this project is multiple studies and detailed plans the neighbors kept rejecting for more than a decade.
@@joes2085 both prevailing wage, plus the requirement that a certain percentage (100%) of the workers must be union.
@@joecesa1013 The whole area is honeycombed with limestone caverns. There are pilings under the Mall that go down 200-300 feet to bedrock, and similar footings under parts of the Expressway.
When I was a student at Temple U a hole opened up under what used to be Route 202 near the quarry. The geology dept. sent some people to look at it. They dumped in a whole drum of tracer dye but never saw any of it in local rivers, etc. They next dropped a 100-meter sounding rope but its equipment never hit bottom. Really.
I grew up 5 mins from one of the suburban stations on the NHSL, and it completely changed my connection with transit and the city and also mobility within the suburbs, as I didn't drive. It could definitely be improved but it's a vital service, which should definitely not be taken for granted. This being said, the KoP extension is pretty silly, and I'm hoping for something better instead, ideally the Blvd subway..
Same exact thing is happening in Dallas. DART is organized by member cities (not counties) and has two ongoing projects: D2 - a massive subway project in downtown to bypass a bottleneck that would LITERALLY DOUBLE the light rail network's capacity, and the Silver Line - a suburban commuter line connecting the airport to northern, richer, white-majority suburbs. Both were planned at the same time, both were greenlit at the same time, but of course the Silver Line is being built first because (get this) the city of Addison pitched a fit and threatened to leave DART if they didn't get the Silver Line built riiight now.
Here's the kicker: the city of Addison has 13,000 people. Thirteen. Thousand. People. A city with 1% of the population of Dallas strong armed it's transit agency into prioritizing a line with an expected ridership of 7,000 riders (2,000 less than the KoP branch, but 6x the length... like... what the actual fuck...), over DOUBLING systemwide capacity. And the residents along the Silver Line have been bitching and moaning and NIMBYing since day one (they scrapped THREE stations because of protests), while just about everybody in downtown is fuuucking begging and pleading for the subway to be built. Silver Line is under construction and to be opened in 2024, D2 to be open in 2028 after over a decade of planning and - as of right now - without a single shovel hitting the ground (so... more like mid-2030s)
I love trains, I love transit, I fucking hate transit agencies.
That last sentence ^^^^
rip for living in texas
Ugh, fuck NIMBY suburbanites. As well as especially transit agencies that bend over backwards for them unconditionally and submit to their every will.
We need a video on this
And all that for the white, rich neighborhood who is going to use their damn car to get to work anyways
SEPTA has so much to work on. I'd be willing to bet that the board members don't even use the product, but I can't be sure. It should be a requirement for board members to log on a certain number of trips on all the different transportation methods SEPTA offers. I ride the Broad Street line every workday. My biggest complaint is how outdated, dirty and uninviting it is. Also, it also lacks visible security.
It lacks invisible security as well. You should see some of the SEPTA-related posts on Twitter. Or maybe you shouldn't?
@@Punnybone55 Yikes, I'm a little afraid to look.
SEPTA should fire nimby people..
I like the BSS. Nobody ever bothered me there. When I drive there are road ragers and racing and weaving criminals threatening me. Sure I get that its not inviting to an elderly person with choices, but it works and its fast. The roads are full of potholes and annoying delays, people drive on them anyway.
@@trainluvr I'm an older transit rider, use the BSL most days of the week, and have honestly never had a problem, but there's times it seems uninviting. The rap is worse than the reality.
I wrote an analysis in a city planning class at Penn in 1969 describing all of the benefits possibilities and opportunities that went along with extending the Broad Street subway and or the Frankford El into the Northeast. I didn’t get glowing review for my professor but the project was worthwhile then and had it been built literally many hundreds of millions of rides would have taken place all these decades reducing pollution increasing speed and comfort.
The latest alignment for the KoP extension doesn't even have it terminating at the new KoP Town Center where they just built literally thousands of housing units in a very dense configuration... Smh
oh god, I never even thought about this
You shall receive an infrequent suburban bus
@@bahnspotterEU I have driven those, though for a different county, and even I’m wondering why I bother, horribly circuitous, schedules that even I can’t find logical, and routes that only run one way (though due to the laws of matter conservation, we have to go back anyways)
I’ve got to say, it’s extremely frustrating when regular citizens know the issues yet the people entrusted to fix them do the exact opposite of what is needed
I talked with one of the so-called "consultants" SEPTA hired for the NHSL project. They were totally ignorant of how or why the line was built in the first place, why it once was so efficient, and how people use it today. Yet they were telling US how it works.
It really is true that the highest demand for transit is inside philadelphia (especially in the soutth) so there is no reason that we are doing this extension that has such low projected ridership. The money could also be better spend fixing up stations on the broad street line and market frankford line, or buying new rolling stock. But like you said in the video, the board probably wouldn't want that.
Septa desperately needs new stock. I'm in Paris and some of our metro trains are 30 years older than the braid street trains but still look far far more modern.
Remember it's MONORAIL! MONORAIL! Who would want to do the basic stuff to shore up ridership when you can build a MONORAIL! in the suburbs who would much rather have their roads widened anyway.
@@4149stonepony are you insane monorail is the worst thing you could build
@@eannamcnamara9338 lol duhhhhh!
@@eannamcnamara9338 SEPTA should have a copy of the NYCT transit R 211 subway trains that are going to be delivered this year and put that new fleet on the Broad Street subway as both have the same track gauge and covered 3rd rail.
I actually love that "Hail a train" Button, if there is no one at the station, the train doesn't stop, speeding up travel for those on the train, but when someone is there, the train stops as normal, I love that idea!
It's otherwise known as a "request stop" and on main line railways is usually used for rural localities, where it's not guaranteed somebody will want to alight or board.
@@bahnspotterEU Oh I know, but the fact there is a button to request is pretty damn cool
@@coastaku1954 we don't even get that in britain.
We actually took the passenger advance lights out.
In the Netherlands there are usually two lines who ride the same route but one of them stops at every station and the other one goes straight to the destination station. i do realise that that only works with economies of scale which in the US usually is not the case so a "hail" button is a great intermediary.
As a Torontonian that had their first fleshed out Philly experience recently, one of the standouts of the trip was SEPTA. Possibly the best all-around transit system I've experienced in North America and yet it seemed wildly underused. Suburbanites clinging to car commuting despite travelling to a city centre almost overtly hostile to cars. There's really no other way of seeing it than as lingering elements of segregation.
It's exactly this. Large parts of Philadelphia's regional rail, trolley and bus lines were bought by car companies and gutted in the Post WWII era. The metro area evolved as sprawl around a core of rail/transit ready urban bones.
Ironically, all the towns that are along the old main line are gentrifying as even drivers like the hybrid travel of having trains and buses in addition to cars, so that commuting to center city is easier than having to take a car and deal with parking meters and traffic, etc.
Philly really has everything it needs infrastructurally to have world class transit, but pisses around necessary changes like restoring Regional Rail, fixing bus routes and making more viable schedules. It's annoying.
@@Joshwalsh2009 agree 100%. im pretty sure philly is going to be redesigning their bus schedules, and doing one itsy-bitsy restoration to wawa, but it is nowhere near enough.
KoP is next to Valley Forge. That is where the American Revolutionary Army camped and drilled. They sucked until a Prussian military officer, Baron von Steuben was brought in. After the war a tavern was named after him called the "King of Prussia." When maps of the area were made, they referenced the tavern.
That is as much of the history I can condense quickly for you.
That seems to be the only history to justify the area's existence
All I can think when I hear SEPTA is septic tank
Well the way they operate, it pretty much it is especially how they made this project just wasting money for badly designed railway project.
the bsl certainly smells like one
Systematically Eliminating Public Transit Altogether
Same difference.
I can think of one worse project, where the car-strangled north shore communities of Lake Pontchartrain tore out an unused rail line linking them, and installed a bicycle path. They subsequently banned pets, and use a motor vehicle to patrol it, which necessitated removing the bollards that protect it from vehicle usage.
Nice to see a fellow New Orleanian interested in this stuff
Bicycle paths can be extremely useful, especially if they link cities/towns. I love the safety of riding bike on a pathway without cars. Most of the rail that was converted to bike paths in Pennsylvania (that I'm aware of) were old freight lines.
I am also a bit wary of using old rail corridors for bike paths because those corridors could be used for transit, whereas bike paths can more easily be installed along existing roadways.
I understand that NIMBYism is the real issue behind both, but it makes me a bit frustrated to see rail infrastructure be torn out.
@Zachary Menking Yeah, I understand why it's done, it just kills me a little inside, especially considering how poor public transit is in the US.
Using unused rail for a bike path is just fine. The other part is pretty dumb tho.
A very, very bad idea. Glad you’re covering it.
EDIT: Goddamnit, SEPTA has a Senate.
EDIT 2: Board Street
Broad Street
@@celestialchill5892 6:33
That explains how and why SEPTA is so stuck in the 1960s and 70s. It's such a weird anomaly. It's almost comical honestly. It's almost like SEPTA *wants* to be this antiquated byzantine system that just *refuses* to move on from the past. I often ask myself how and why does such a massive city like Philly have such a backwards transit system, including the paltry subway coverage. Thanks for answering that and exploring just how SCREWED UP the SEPTA leadership and systems are.
Maybe the board members might see this video one day
@@Myron90 Let's hope so!
its absolutely depressing to go to nyc and see how EXTENSIVE their subways are, miles and miles of tracks, tunnels. tons of trains, near 24/7 service and your just in awe of how fast and easy you can get from one part of the city to the next.
does it have flaws? yes its a very old system that prioritizes getting into manhattan rather than cross borough transit, theres no easy way to get from brooklyn queens or the bronx without getting through manhattans gutters, forget even gettting to staten island too. in addition to this it seems like it takes ages to get new lines.
but it is so much better than the 4 and a half subway lines we have in philly, a bit more lines if you take the trolleys into consideration. like they do their jobs well but it is PAINFULLY depressing to just see all the tunnels ontop of each other and to return to philly and we have to settle with the broad street line, the market line and barely the patco in philly and again maybe a bit more in west philly with the trolleys.
it just hurts man, i want more trains under and aboveground but nah, we gotta make a station right in some suburban hellscape
@@mikeyconngz6034 it's very depressing coming from NYC to Philly. I think Philly is better in lots of ways just chooses to not be nearly as good as it can.
@@mikeyconngz6034 Yeah, the more and harder you think about it, the more cripplingly depressing it gets LOL. It also really doesn't help that Philly is one of the worst offenders when it comes to transit DIS-oriented development, meaning absolutely nothing surrounding transit stations.
I hate how trains used to run at 80-90 miles per hour on this, and now it's 55 at most. More like the Norristown *SLOW* speed line.
Roosevelt extension would be AMAZING to the city! I always imagined that. The Frankford line connecting somewhere in the northeast would be cool too. With Kop the regional rail is just fine for the people they serve.
Reminds me of another transit project with a troubled history: Line 3 Scarborough or the Scarborough RT
Basically in the early 70s, the Ontario government launched GO-Urban, an intermediate capacity transit system across Toronto's suburbs using experimental ARTs by Krauss-Maffei, a then West German manufacturer. And that's exactly where its troubles began because the West German government refused to give further funding for Krauss-Maffei's ARTs, leading to the project's cancellation in 1974. But this didn't affect the plan in Canada, as GO-Urban actually studied the Krauss-Maffei's Transurban ARTs and created their own simpler version called the ICTS (now known as the Bombardier Innovia Metro after Bombardier's takeover of the Crown corporation that developed them).
During this same period, the TTC wanted to extend its streetcars, and had a Scarborough extension in the books. But the Ontario government, being ambitious about their new system, demanded the TTC to use their new ICTS for the Scarborough extension as a testing ground. Since streetcar construction already began (you can see remnants of this at Kennedy station), they felt just stopping and putting the ICTS there instead would be a waste of money, but since a big percentage of the money was coming from the Ontario government...they had no choice
So in 1985, the Scarborough extension opened as the Scarborough RT, and recently has a daily ridership of...only twelve thousand, has rolling stock used since 1985 that has reached past the end of its life, and is home to the bottom two least-used stations on the entire TTC system (with a third within the bottom ten). But there is light at the end of the tunnel...Line 3 is due to close in 2023 in favor of a subway extension of Line 2 to Scarborough Centre from Kennedy. However, this wasn't a quick decision. There's been back and forth regarding replacing the system with light rail or just simply replacing the rolling stock with newer Mark II vehicles (in fact the TTC Board initially approved this but it was cancelled) as those options would be cheaper, but Scarborough insisted on heavy rail saying "if everyone else can have a proper subway line, then so can we!" Until the extension is completed in 2030, buses will replace the service, and the portion of the tracks between Kennedy and Ellesmere stations will be converted to a bus right-of-way
But hey, at least SEPTA is not the MBTA which is currently under a high profile FTA investigation for fatal safety issues in which the entire agency could be dissolved by a federal order any day now! 🙃🙃🙃🙃
The frick?
MBTA just doing MBTA things… Everything from the Green Line Extension that took 30 years and a lawsuit to build to the probably dozens of times that they nearly ran out of money to the endless mismanagement makes the MBTA the spiciest transit agency in the US
I gotta echo Chloe Carmichael. Da frick? I don't live in Boston but I have family there that I used to visit on the regular in the Before Times. I've ridden MBTA transit.
Don't Jynx SEPTA!
MBTA has their own version of this critique theme; The Fall River/ NewBedford commuter rail line vs. Blue Line to Lynn.
Alright, “full-scale model railroad” gave me a chuckle haha
The extension at west Trenton would add so much mobility from PA to NJ and intra state travel in Jersey
As someone who lives in that part of Jersey I think that an extension from Trenton or having NJT’s NEC extended south to Philly would make more sense. Stations like Hamilton and Princeton Junction in New Jersey should have frequent service to Philly.
@@TysonIke then again SEPTA's Trenton Line already exists and that issue solves itself for the most part
If SEPTA won't do the extension on the West Trenton then NJT would have to do it that is if they get enough funding
Or a broad street extension to Gloucester city
I am disgusted that a board that should be representing peoples best interests and equitable is anything but that.
Oh America... maybe one day we can figure out good transit... right?
Add it to the pile. Y’all got a lot of bullshit to figure out. Absolute dumpster fire of a country.
Not if big oil and/or automobile industries have something to say about that
@@jalfredl I have faith things will change. Big oil and the internal combustion auto are going to lose traction as the new generations are choosing to dump them.
@Peter Davies
California High Speed Rail.
@@marcdenlinger5282 yeah I know what you’re saying...hopefully
Americans criticize our nation while messes like this exist there, but at least we can flex that we built our metro system before Seoul did, AND it's much more beautiful than theirs as it takes inspiration from Moscow's.
Also, why build an extension to King of Prussia when reopening regional rail at Valley Forge is where it's at.
Wow, I wonder if the awful decision to have 2 board members for each area despite the huge population differences between them has any kind of parallel in the US? 🤔🤔🤔
Of course it does. We all know that. Including you. :P
This video is a little misleading about the board. The two Philly board members have veto power that can only be trumped by supermajority. That’s kinda massive, even if it hasn’t been done yet I think.
There are also 15 board members, not 11 lol. Besides the 2 from area, 1 is appointed by the governor and 4 are appointed by the party leaders of the general assembly.
@@selthboy The dude's from Philly, so for him to intentionally mislead his audience is disrespectful and an insult to our collective intelligence.
That is what a Republic is. A senate with equal amounts of senators so that the interests of big population centres do not drown out the smaller communities. Suck it up because that is what the US is. A Republic. Also throwing in the race card? Seriously. This is a racist transit plan? Really? The plan itself is not a very good one, granted, simply looking at the size of proposed ridership. However public transportation if done well draws in customers. However, to throw in your opinions based upon your flawed biased generalisations? ...Nah...Fail.
And don't forget that the board chairman's transit experience consists of running a beer distributorship.
I was a tourist in Philadelphia and bought one of those SEPTA smart cards. They straight up ripped me off after I loaded money onto the card and I had no recourse while I was in the city, causing me to pay for my transit rides even though I had purchased the smart card.
Problem #1: the NHSL is immediately overwhelmed by a single gaggle of foamers
In English Blanche
@@KanishQQuotes Sorry. The proper term is a "consist". By a single consist of foamers.
A couple months ago I submitted a suggestion to the Philadelphia inquirer about writting an article on the possibility of building a Roosevelt blvd subway. They wrote a piece on it and mentioned some of the information you stated in your video. I'm glad this topic is getting more exposure. The Northeast is the largest part of Philadelphia with the most people, yet public transportation is lacking. Thank you for your content it's greatly appreciated hope to see a subway in the Northeast soon!
That’s true, however if you look at how the NE is laid out, it was planned to imitate the suburbs and thus be car dependent.
@@rachelgarber1423 Yeah, NE Philly was intended to be more suburban but it was also built around the assumption that there would eventually be a train going down Roosevelt to connect everything to the city. A suburban area with affordable fast access to Center City would be a ton of people's ideal living situation, I bet including most people who currently live in NE.
As a retired septa operator, the management and the board are responsible for themselves ONLY and not the riding public, if an operator says something to a boss about a problem it takes 6 months to look at it and answer the issue with usually means NO! They care about themselves and their college level management and not anything else!INEPTA needs to fire all of the management and put people who will restore the system back to what it was 30 years ago along with people who actually have an interest in expanding the system into a world class system (that won't happen in my lifetime)
"Interurbans are fucking weird" A truer statement has never been made.
I don't know about interurbans in general, but that sure describes the NHSL. I'm not sure it's a standard gauge.
It sure is odd.
It's a bunch of request stops but on a busy line and not some small town on a small branch....
@@heatherkuhn6559 NHSL is standard gauge, and also 100% grade-separated.
The demise of the Lehigh Valley Transit Co. is one that really pains me. If it were still around it would make my travels much more enjoyable between the LV and Philly area. As I watched this, I was reminded of the LVT Co. fare token that I have pinned to the wall. The size of a penny with a small bell (The Liberty Bell Line) stamped out of the center. It's really unfortunate that the line is gone now...
I actually love the RT 100.
It is easily my favorite septa line.
It's cheap fast and reliable. And it has a somewhat scenic view. I always love looking into to quarry it passes.
It's a real shame that the system is in such a state of disrepair.
They used to go up to 80mph and could get you from Upper Darby to Norristown in under 15 minutes if you caught the limited express.
Still it is much more reliable than buses.
The worst part of it is that it's becoming like the El, with junkies shooting up onboard, and trash all over.
They even took the express portion out of the route, it now takes 21-23 minutes to get from just 69th street to DeKalb station 🤦🏾♂️
The original Bullet Cars (and even the re-tuned Strafford Cars) at full speed were better than a roller coaster! The line was purposely "overbuilt" with banked curves and provisions for high-speed rail travel. The speed governors on the N5 cars ruin the experience, supposedly for safer operation and less risk of accidents. But, what an experience it once was!
@@1stwonder788 that ride generally takes me about 30 minutes, but that's in the middle of the day. I'm sure the early morning runs are faster. And that section between DeKalb and Hughes Park is the slowest section of track on account of the sinkhole problem in that area. I imagine the sink holes there have something to do with the quarry, but I only think that because of the proximity.
@@bobdobalina1419 Yes - one of the drivers told me they dropped the limit on that stretch of track from 65 to 25 or 30 mph due to sinkholes. The whole area is honeycombed. There are columns under the Mall that go down 200 or 300 feet before hitting bedrock.
The little stub of what used to be de Kalb street near the quarry was closed because a massive hole opened up next to it. I was a student at Temple U at the time. The geology dept. was called in to look at the opening. I was in a different department but heard that they first tossed in a 55-gal drum of dye, but NONE of it showed up anywhere in local streams and creeks. Next they dropped a 100-meter sounding rope ... the bottom weight just swung freely. Sadly no miniature cams in those days; I'd love to know what was down there.
I’m from Spain, and when I went to Philadelphia and took Septa commuter trains… I nearly die on a heart attack. Express trains which pass right in front of you on a low floor station, when there’s another track defined for that. Low floor stations? Is that even safe? Trains with manual doors. Schedules? What’s that? Oh and please, don’t forget about the fact that the trains were falling apart… just compared to the Spanish commuter rail, which looks like heaven compared to that.
Hi Alan, great video! I grew up in KOP (Fun Fact: The reason it's name KOP is due to a motel/hotel named the King of Prussia Tavern that I believe currently exists in KOP/Upper Merion). I have to admit, as a big rail transit/high density zoning/anti-car fanatic, I was truly excited about the NHSL extension to KOP and the mall. However, overtime I realized it definitely isn't the best use of Septa's funds. Also, the locations of the stations on the extension are in purely car-centric locations that are mostly devoid of any housing or public transit lines (at the moment) that the only people truly using this line from around KOP would have to drive there. I know the line is mostly for people who commute to KOP to access the mall and near by business parks, but I highly doubt that it will get much use considering that traveling throughout surrounding area is heavily car dependent. I would much rather see an extension for the Broad Street Line since I would like Philly's transit system to eventually mirror a more European-style City transit system, but this project is certainly not a step in the right direction. Anyways, I appreciate the content!
Yeah, the only way you'd be able to (easily) access any nearby office parks would be if there was a shuttle bus that made the rounds from the rail stop(s) to the office parks.
I am going to dissent on some parts:
I think the Norristown High-speed extension is fine. Sure, it is expensive and not the high-ridership extension with the highest need on SEPTA overall but in the context in which it is being built it's fairly sensible. The connection with SEPTA allows the extension to get funding it does deserve which a project of a smaller scope and relatively high upfront cost like this would otherwise rarely get in the US. While not getting quite the same ridership as in the big city, light-rapid transit (even in it's unusual form of the norristown high-speed line) in smaller cities and regional areas can be transformative to the accessibility of these regions, which it absolutely will be here. Pure ridership isn't the only consideration to make.
The problem isn't that the Norristown extension is bad (it's not), it's that the funds are more useful/needed elsewhere, which points both to the problems with the way SEPTA is organised and to problems with overall underfunding of new transit infrastructure in the US. We should be striving for *both* projects that transform mobility in smaller centers and suburban regions even if they might have high-upfront costs compared to projected ridership, *and* the necessary high-capacity upgrades to major mass-transit corridors. They are both important for their own reasons.
And yes: The Roosevelt extension obviously needs to happen Pronto.
I was raised in KOP and it took a monumental amount to convince my parents this is a good idea. That said I think the broad street line should take precedent. However I still think the KOP should be built and I think the line should have the original route. younger people in KOP do not like how car centric the community is.
For anyone convinced the extension is a bad idea, I worked in the mall for years and had friends who lived in west Philadelphia and Upper Darby who would take septa bus routes to work and the commute was over 90 minutes from where they lived, one way. The majority of people who work in the mall are from Norristown and Philadelphia and this extension would be a huge time save to essentially supply the mall with labor. The people who shop their will drive as it shifts more and more to luxury goods. The mall is awful but the workers there deserve better than multi hour bus rides to work shitty minimum wage jobs for shitty lifeless mega conglomerates
The Upper Merion Township board of supervisors are comically inept and horribly racially prejudiced. The Township's local GOP has to print out and continually print out literature emphasizing that they are *not* racist which is never a good sign.
I love my hometown the schools are great, the people I know are kind, but yes, It is a suburban sprawl hell hole with a shitty enormous mall to boot. The Township's board of supervisors claim a lot of that blame over the past 70 years and the populace constantly vote against their own self interest. Very frustrating.
Live in Norristown, and had to take regular trips to KOP for a medical issue. I took a Lyft from my job to KOP, then crossed Mall Blvd to take the route 124 to 13th St to the Gulph Mills Station and back to Norristown, to save money.
KOP is indeed a hellhole of sprawl, and the 124 was always full of KOP workers when I was trekking back home to Norristown. I'd still say it would be better to beef up Regional Rail to bring it to KOP, and use buses to improve connections between towns and within towns.
TBH a lot of bus lines would be better off as Regional Rail access (Phoenixville and KOP). In lieu of that, at least the NHSL extension is SOMETHING, and probably will make the commute to KOP less hellacious, as the MFL/BSL/NHSL are more consistent than the buses overall.
It's still annoying though. If Philly were even at the level of a mediocre European tranist network then the pressure taken off the buses would almost certainly make routes and schedules a lot better in suburban areas as well.
TL;DR Fuck's Sake SEPTA, I just want my commute to be shorter--it would literally take me 15 minutes more total to get from Norristown to Center City Philly than it does to get from home to work because of the flipping routes...why....?
@@Joshwalsh2009 They did seriously look at bringing Regional Rail to K of P, but it turned out to be even *more* expensive and wasteful.
It's heavy rail, not light, which requires heavier infrastructure. Also it runs on catenary rather than third rail, again more $$$. And finally the Regional Rail system is subject to Federal Rail Admin rules which means two cars on every run, plus a separate conductor and driver. So even MORE $$$$.
One correction: 69th Transportation Center is in Upper Darby. It's very close to Philly, but not actually in it.
UD never getting any good representation
Thank you for pointing out the issue of the racism. It's such a huge factor in American transit; from when trolley lines were torn out for highways (and whose neighborhoods that was done to) to a major part of NIMBY-ism today, usually with the not-really-coded language about "crime" or "city people" whenever anyone talks about extensions.
remember the route-6 trolley to Willow Grove Park
This problem isn't racism. The decision was not based on race, it was only because of the quantity of representatives was split evenly, and there wasn't any representation based off of population.
Having talked to one of the planners from MontCo that is working on this project, I think they’re hoping that it’ll spur TOD. KOP is still experiencing a lot of growth and I think they’re hoping that the NHSL extension will concentrate development around the line. But given the fact that SEPTA is wildly underfunded, losing metro ridership, and the BSL stations are crumbling, I’d rather have them spend the money on just repairing and upgrading the existing, aging transit infrastructure before putting money into new projects.
That's what is confusing me a bit. SEPTA is poorly funded and scraping bye every which where and yet they have $2 billion to toss at a pacer bus 🤔
Another amazing video, TY! As a Lehigh Valleyite, of course I want the 2 billion spent on restoring rail from Philly to the Lehigh Valley. But as a transit fan and former Philly native, the Broad Street extension is a no brainer. BTW Alan, is it true that there was a Broad Street extension planned and dug out to the Fairmont section as well?
InterUrbans...
wait, they are basically third rail powered light rail vehicles that run between towns/cities right?
.. this is basically American S-Bahn but done bad.
Not always 3rd rail, but yeah…
Not quite like an S-Bahn. Interurbans were essentially light railways. They ran on their own right of way, generally separate from main line trains, they used lightweight rolling stock, sometimes very close to trams, and they could reach pretty high speeds. It‘s not a bad concept, and it does exist in Europe too (or did in some cases). One excellent example from Germany is the „Köln-Bonner Eisenbahn“ (Cologne-Bonn Railway), nowadays converted to an interurban Stadtbahn line, they used to run their own dedicated services with specially built rolling stock on their own system of tracks until the late 70s.
As sexy as trains themselves are, this focus on the organizational structure is fascinating. I would love to see similar examinations in other cities, and the impact this has on projects in those cities. Like, how much influence does Albany have over MTA in NYC? How is WMATA structured since it covers multiple states? What's with the weird arrangement between RTA, CTA, Metra, and Pace in Chicago (plus the South Shore Line)? Highlighting how these various agencies' board members are appointed, how funding and project plans flow through them, and their relationship with any attempts at regional planning would be very valuable. Maybe you can similarly highlight a major project or two in each area (2nd Ave Subway in NYC, Purple and Silver line projects in DC, and proposals in Chicago to run a south side Metra line like a rapid transit service, and the pushback this is got from the city).
As a student at Villanova in the early 90s, I would often take the "Flying Coffin" (as we called it) from campus to my part time job in Bryn Mawr. I ran more frequently than the regional rail and was probably cheaper. The High Speed Line was also a convenient way to get to the King of Prussia Mall, though it did require a transfer to a bus to make that trip. And yeah, we had to push the button to signal the train to stop. We called it the "Flying Coffin" because it the train car sort of was shaped like a coffin and it would - as the official name suggests - travel at high speed, giving the illusion of flying. Having talked to alumni from the late 60s, they would call it the "Piss and Whistle" or the "Pig and Whistle" - a play on the P & W name, since it was run by that transit authority back then.
To add some info and a minor correction:
If you were riding it in the early 90s you probably used some rehabbed CTA Series 6000 cars. Back then SEPTA was even in worse financial shape (yes, really). They'd pushed the original Brill cars way beyond their service lives but didn't have replacements in the pipeline. When the Brills started to fail they bought several cast-off CTA cars, did some bailing-wire repairs, and ran them till the current N-5 fleet arrived. There were also 5 or 6 modified MFSE "Almond Joy" cars that were used for Upper Darby-Bryn Mawr local service.
I hated the 6000s but they prevented the line from being paved over for BRT as some at SEPTA wanted.
As far as "P&W", that was the Philadelphia and Western company, They built the original line from Upper Darby to Strafford in 1907 and added the Norristown branch in 1912. It was supposed to be part of a much larger interurban system that never
materialized.
Red Arrow bought the P&W in 1954 but the nickname was so ingrained that it was actively used into the 1990s. IIRC even SEPTA sometimes talked about "the P&W branch". Also locals still use the name to distinguish it from the regional rail system which has several station names in common.
At some point SEPTA went through a "gotta rename everything" phase where they tried to purge older names. They first rebadged the P&W as Route 100 ... which people shortened to R100 and confused with the R prefixes then in use for the Regional Rail system. So NHSL it became.
The part about suburban expansion being pushed over urban expansion is also something that happened in Toronto as well. After line 2 opened in 1966 the idea was to construct a third subway line under Queen Street through downtown Toronto (a line that would come to be known as the Downtown Relief Line and had been talked about in some form since 1910). However it was decided by Metro Toronto Council (the governing body for Toronto and its suburbs at the time) to instead focus on expanding the current 2 lines into the suburbs as it would be cheaper and more politically popular. It also didn't help that the Province would eventually re-organize Metro Toronto from 13 municipalities to 6 meaning the City of Toronto lost its allies on Metro Council that also supported a rapid transit line on Queen Street (Those being the Towns of Swansea, Mimico, New Toronto, and Long Branch). The DRL would remain on planning maps but its priority was always pushed aside for another project all the while ridership on the downtown sections of the subway continued to grow. By the 90's the DRL was off the map entirely.
In 1998 Metropolitan Toronto would be dissolved and the 6 remaining municipalities merged into the current City of Toronto with a city council dominated by the suburbs; this as you can imagine has lead to some interesting decision making. There wouldn't be any real movement on a new subway into downtown Toronto until about 2017 when planning work finally started again on the DRL and now it has become the proposed Ontario Line after the Province for all intents and purposes stepped in and stripped the city of its ability to plan major subway projects. Preliminary construction work has already begun although the line isn't expected to open until the 2030's, but when it does it will be the first new subway line built in downtown Toronto since 1966. By comparison the most recent suburban expansion opened in 2016. Even then you still here people and politicians from the suburbs (especially my area of Scarborough) complaining about "downtown-centric" planning and the "suburbs not getting there fair share" even though once again we haven't opened a new subway station in downtown since 1966 and we are literally spending something like $5 Billion to extend Line 2 into Scarborough.
If the urban area don't want to build rail to suburban areas, pay for your transit systems yourself. Don't demand suburban areas to finance your urban transit systems if you aren't going to service them... DUH...
you can’t only build infrastructure in dense centers. that only creates a positive feedback loop that increases density in those centers even further. And if you have an entity that is responsible for all of those regions then it should serve all people in that region. If Philadelphia has special needs it should be taken out of that construct or have their own separate entity on top.
"that only creates a positive feedback loop that increases density in those centers even further."
Which is....bad? Somehow?
@@TheEngineerd Density is miserable. Maybe Kowloon is your ideal city but it certainly isn't mine.
@@bcfuerst Well, would you look at that, a strawman. Please find someone who, when they talk about increased density, indicate they have Kowloon in mind. Go on. By comparison, a city like Osaka Japan has ~5,752 people per 1 sq. km. Kowloon had 43,033 people per 1 sq. km. These are not the same things.
You know it's a good day when Alan Fisher uploads a video. People always overlook the interurbans in American Railroad history, even though they are the ideal form of local rail transport that connects every single small town to a larger one or another railroad, even more effectively than a class I/fallen flag branch line. Interurbans like the NHSL and Liberty Bell line deserve more appreciation, and rail projects to rural areas should be based on them.
Alan, do you know if there's ever been any consideration of expanding the Patco line from 16th and Locust to 30th Street Station? Would make a lot of sense, don't you think?
You might be in luck about a future video 😉
But yes there were/are a ton of plans to expand patco
Makes total sense about the idea of PATCO being extended to 30th Street Station. Unfortunately, there are folks who never wanted (and still don't want) Rittenhouse Square to be torn up. Another missed opportunity...
I don't think PATCO could ever connect directly to 30th Street Station. That's what the New Jersey Transit Atlantic City Line does. The challenge in extending PATCO to est Philadelphia/ University City is getting the University Of Pennsylvania to allow a station under their property with a street level head house.
Extending PATCO west was part of the DVRPC's 50-year plan for transit improvements. In fact at one point there was talk of extending it beyond 30th Street to join the NHSL at Upper Darby, because the two lines have almost identical operating characteristics.
But like most ideas for dragging the region out of the 1930s transit-wise, almost every one of those long-range goals fell victim to a a surfeit of politics and a lack of both will and $$$.
Speaking of SEPTA, hey Alan, what do you think of the idea of re-building the line out from Norristown towards Reading? Is there enough demand or potential demand for that project to be worth it?
If they electrify the Norfolk Southern's line AMTAK/SEPTA intend to use, that route may put the end for double stack intermodals.
@@chromediesel444I imagine that they might need to continue to use it if SEPTA or Amtrak move in though; hopefully electrifying and placing down a second track where only one exists would work out.
@@chromediesel444 The solution is going to be to use the Reading RR wire clearances that allow double-stack trains to run under them not the PRR syle clearances which prohibit the running of Double Stack Trains
You don't have to build a line between Reading and Kop,NS already has a line that runs close to Norristown, connect that to the P&W,and build a short line to KOP
@@bobellis2026 That's the plan I heard about, Connecting the NHSL to the Trenton cutoff. This video is the first I've heard about the viaduct which makes no sense, The cutoff is practically out of service there anyway.
Two words: Reverse Rush. KOP is the 2nd largest employment center in the region. The extension will ease the commute for city residents to jobs in the suburbs. The 123, 124, 125 are standing loads in both directions. The NHSL (stop request is how interurbans work to achieve high speed service(Bullet trains cruised at 90 mph.)) 2 car trains out in the morning, in in the afternoon. Build them all. The Boulevard was designed for rapid transit. BSSS was built with flying junctions ready for extensions. Revive the LVT, or extend the Landale line to Allentown, and revive the line to Reading.
If I were SEPTA, I would spend money on buying more regional rail rolling stock so as to be able to run a half-hourly service on all lines.
Ugh. If Philly would beef up regional rail with *modern* high speed trains and a 1/2 schedule [insert tech utopia future meme].
That's the most sad thing about it all. The commuter rail bones in Philly are really quite solid, and it's all electric and mostly lacks at-grade crossings. If they ran every 30 minutes and had twice a day express service from places like Wilmington, Chester, Trenton and Doylestown, it would be a great way to link up far flung suburbs and satellite cities. So close, but so far. Oh well.
They ARE. There are new bi-levels on order.
But this being SEPTA, they went with the lowest cost only, instead of the best balance of cost and quality. The most recent scuttlebutt is that the first few cars off the production line are a joke.
What's the board street line? Oh broad street!
Wups, it was late when I finished editing this 😅
Its a good idea to extend the line. The people against it don't want poor people coming easily to the area or seeing the trains.
They forget that "those people" are ALREADY coming to work at the Mall and casino, but have to sit on buses that can take an hour and a half.
I wish you could still take a train from Allentown to Philadelphia. I-476 sucks. It's one of my least favorite highways!
Okay, that power line right of way, how the fuck did they block it?
Would have been a clear "It goes here or else we don't build it" to me.
I live in Philly and your correct about this project. Meanwhile the EL trains have been ignored and they have losing functioning trains to run our city. We need new El trains but Septa has no plans on fix its El problem.
Thank you for this video you were spot on.
I will start a campaign of emails and calls to Septa Customer Service asking for this rule of Board Members to change. Damn dude Customer Services is really not going like me now. I call to complain about t Septa's lack of communication all the time.
Actually SEPTA's plans do include El-car replacements. They apparently got some kind of "deal" on the original purchase b/c the cars are wearing out a LOT faster than they were specified.
America needs a completely NEW form of intercity transit. My proposal is that we flood the streets and develop high speed personal transports. These transports will be called Buoyancy Operated Aquatic Transports, or BO-AT™️ for short. It's a car that drives on water! How cool is that?
It'll happen in Miami without any construction costs.
@@collectorguy3919 lol yup. Word is Southern Florida and Louisiana have already jumpstarted the project.
I see what you did there
How would it work in the Western states? They're running out of water.
@@paulheydarian1281 r/woosh
They would extend a line to car dependent KoP but not to the relatively dense West Chester. The track and right of way are already there, it just needs some modernization and perhaps some more transit in town. But even without extra transit the existing stop that was closed decades ago is walking distance from the University and downtown. Along with a decent amount of housing and some industry.
I beleve there are plans for the Media Elwin Regional Rail line to extend to West Chester. They moved that line out to an area called Wawa located by wawa's HQ. It's opening date is now sometime in August 2022
Well There's Your Problem has a few episodes about SEPTA that sums up its' problems. The city has the underlying framework from before transit was gutted, but current heads are not utilizing the full potential (restoring service to Phoenixville, Reading, Allentown etc), updating train stock, improving schedules and speeds.
As a suburban rider, the main problem with the bus lines is infrequency, unreliability, and speed. A lot of routes suck for riders and drivers. It's easier to get get from a hospital 2 miles away from me to Philly, for example, than to get to that same bus route to my house, because the bus routes are all radial to center city; nothing exists to connect routes within towns outside Philly, or between towns outside Philly.
It's annoying. If SEPTA updated and maximized the MFL and BSL and Regional Lines, then the buses could be better deployed linking up suburban areas and schedules would be better and more consistent.
You missed the part where they are more concerned about branding than doing anything actually useful (see the “septa metro” thing where they are once again changing the names of light rail lines).
In a dream-ish scenario:
1. Build the Roosevelt Blvd Extension. Heck, I'd have it run the whole length of the blvd and make it its own line with an interchange at the BSL.
2. BSL extension into the navy yard then turn to run to the airport to give the airport better service than the regional rail.
3. Put a trolley line along Delaware Ave. There's already rail along large sections of it. Granted it's for freight, but it's barely ever used. I swear an old box car sat on it for months once.
Malls are kind of going on the skids these days. It would be a lot less expensive to simply expand shuttle bus service from Gulph Mills Station to include stops at the KOP Mall and 'Town Center' and other designated stops.
All my Philly homies hate the mall. Any time I want to go to Valley Forge, I have to go through it and it sucks. And don't even get me started on the KOP Town Center... Actual town planning diarrhea.
SEPTA tried to convince me this project was a good idea, (lots of talk about zoning and I guess their shitty attempt at a streetcar suburb?) but alas, I shall not be fooled! Now go restore all the shit you Thanos'd out of existence (Trolleys, Reigonal Rail, you get it) instead of building new infrastructure, SEPTA.
Or, if you're really that into building new stuff, build a subway on Roosevelt Blvd! You know, the one that literally every human being with half a braincell has been asking for, for over 100 years? You know that one? Or, even better, If you want to, for some reason, stay in the suburbs, restore not one, but TWO West Chester connections! The abandoned trolley, and the Reigonal Rail. KOP rail isn't a bad Idea, but... why now? Please, SEPTA. Please do better. We have so much potential and you decide to do this with it. Unbelieveable.
Of course a video about how crappy SEPTA is would remind me of how crappy the Senate is. Ugh.
I'm a suburban rider of SEPTA and I can say that the suburbs have horrible transit service from the agency, unless you go into center city for your commute. I can only get a bus at my home once an hour and even then most trips require a transfer to regional rail or another, equally infrequent bus. The trains come once every two hours on the weekend. I would LOVE as much suburban attention as your video accuses SEPTA of giving.
A train to King of Prussia has been desperately need for decades! As a former mall employee who lived in the city, I can't even begin to tell you how awful it was to take a bus that gets stuck on the expressway all the time. I used to sit on the floor of the bus and look at people's shoes, since one of the stores I worked in was a shoe store. The area around the mall is full of offices that need workers, and apartment buildings with residents who need to get into the city for work and college classes. I briefly had the terrible experience of being a student while living in King of Prussia, and that was a nightmare. I had to listen to the traffic reports on my headphones, and if there was any sign of trouble on the expressway, I had to get off the bus at Gulph Mills and get the Norristown High Speed Line from there. I've had some pretty stressful commutes in my lifetime - I got my first car in Boston, of all places - but nothing was ever as horrible as commuting between Philadelphia and King of Prussia on a bus. Just seeing this project named as the "worst transit project in America" makes me so angry that I can't bring myself to watch the video. Anyone who never had to commute between Philadelphia and King of Prussia should shut the heck up. Although a train running directly from Center City to King of Prussia would be ideal, switching from the el to the Norristown High Speed Line at 69th street is close enough to that ideal, and it would help so many people.
This^ is exactly what I wanted to say
I was a former mall employee who lived in the city as well. In the mid-1990's. And the 124/125 on the expressway was a nightmare back then too. This line was badly needed even then! Taking those buses was agony, especially when I had to work a closing shift and couldn't even get ON the bus due to the crowding and had to wait for the next one (messing up downline connections and extending my trip by anywhere from 45 to 90 minutes! I would have loved to see this train running back then. And a good number of others would have as well.
Thanks for making this video. I thought KoP was a large business center, as that is what it was described as in a random internet comment I saw. I neglected to fact-check that KoP actually was a sprawling city.
Same, i grew up in Montgomery and live rn in Philly, for little over 20 years i thought KoP was literally just the mall, not a town.
@@richyhu2042 So did SEPTA, for a long time.
This just sounds like railing against giving public transit to Stereotypical US Suburbs - the things that, if you're not going to tear them down, need public transit more than almost anywhere. So where's the nuance I'm missing?
Public transit systems should never, EVER have their board members appointed. They need to be elected and they need to actually USE the system no less than semi regularly. That is a fundamental problem with the vast majority of the TAs in the United States. Without knowing you, it is clear that you could help run SEPRA better than some appointed official who doesn't ride the bus. There does need to be changes in the law for sure.
Could SEPTA be dissolved by a Governor and reformed with a different representation system?
Great video. Thanks for posting. When living in west Philly I rode the train often and loved it. I always wondered what was holding the city back from making it better. Philly is a great city.
Having a button to request a train stop is not at all that weird, it happens everywhere in here in Switzerland on rural lines and it's a great thing to speed up services and save energy and maintenance (brakes)
KOP is named after the tavern (King of Prussia) that was the only stopping point in the town, it is still there today because the town rallied against it getting bulldozed years ago.
I'd be interested to know about the Purple Line in Maryland and the Second Avenue Subway
Rip red line
The intro was an assault on my gut. LIke I love the Purple Line, I'm pretty local to it and it fixes a problem that's pretty much impossible to do with how MARC and even Metrorail are set up
At the same time, they've been talking about the project for as long as I've been living in Maryland, and the progress and some of the aspects of its creation make me scratch my head and groan
Thank you for shinning some light on this!!! These are things that have frustrated me for years while riding SEPTA. The sad part is that most people in the city don't even know that these projects are a possibility and much like you said in the video just accept everything as it's given to them.
I used to Live in North Philly and go to school in Northeast Philly (right on the border of Bensalem). This commute was over an hour and a half one-way and required me to 1) walk 15 minutes to the MFL 2) take the MFL to the Frankfurt transportation Center 3) catch the 14 bus to NE Philly 4) walk another 15 minutes from the bus stop to school. Needless to say, my commute would've been much easier if there was some type of BSL extension that ran off the boulevard...
I really hope you spend some time talking about this subject more in the future.
Once again SEPTA & Philadelphia being a case study in everything a city and transit system shouldn't be doing.
The Roosevelt Blvd Extension would be amazing, but that whole project is been steeped in political controversy for ages. It's not so much SEPTA unwilling to do it, it's the broader political system unwilling to do it. Think the NUMBYism for the NHSL was bad? A Roosevelt BLVD extension would be worse, despite the obvious benefits. It's been planned for over 50 years. It isn't happening.
I will say though, that Kop rail has 2 upsides that this video overlooks:
1: it is the third largest business district in the area (after center city and university city). So tons of people from the city currently must drive on the Schuylkill expressway.
2: it's a better project than expanding the Schuylkill imo. Price tag is too high though.
The business district is very sprawled out and most of the business centers don't have sidewalks
@@DeltaFish11 well have the DPW build some sidewalks then, chop chop
another terrible project is the SW corridor LRT in Portland, OR. It goes to wealthier suburbs instead of lower income neighborhoods, it misses most of the population centers in SW so you have a long walk or additional transfer, the travel time is too long, It is widening the road instead of repurposing lanes, Too much parking, not enough TOD, etc...
Well it was voted down so it won't be happening in the immediate future. The worst project in Portland by far was the WES though. It should definitely have a branch into Downtown and then also extend to Salem. What they should build is the downtown subway they are currently studying and a subway under Division st or one of those other dense streets in the area.
From a VERY reliable source: lookup Pasquale T. Deon, Sr.
He is the chairman of SEPTA's board. If he wants a project to get done it does.
If Pasquale is against a project - it will not happen.
Simple.
He is also on the Turnpike's board.
Starts by complaining about the congestion and sprawl of KoP, then talks about how stupid it is to connect with fast/reliable public transit? Pick one.
Have you ever ridden the bus out here?
PACKED with workers just trying to get to their jobs, most busses 30 minutes late stuck in traffic coming out of Philly or circuitously routed to reduce the number of routes.
I won't defend the NIMBYs- they legit ruined the whole idea because they wanted a regional rail service and they think of the power lines as "their backyard". They were limited by the fact they could never afford property aquisition and, honestly, the new route is pretty good in terms of stops.
Right now the GOOD mass transit in the KoP area is only provided in the nicer residential areas - the KoP extension will actually connect workers with *work* in a faster, more reliable way. If you look at the stops, it hits the major job centers one way or another - and does it by literally dropping people off in parking lots.
The business district has also *already* started, and in some cases finished, reworking the streets to take away auto lanes and create separated walkways for pedestrians. There's a biking master plan, althought its not executing quite as well as the business corridor walkability initiative.
The Navy Yard extension failed because, honestly, the shuttle bus was good enough. And Urban took care of their own.... post Pandemic the Yard is kinda dead so it makes less sense than it did in like 2012.
Blvd spur is DOA due to local opposition. The thought of connecting Frankford or Mayfair to North/Southwest Philly is just too much for the die hard townies. Maybe if the promised to only connect Patterson and skip every other stop on the way would the locals agree.
Still need to find time to get to Philadelphia. The New Jersey (BB-62, yes I know she's in Camden technically but shush), the Olympia, and the United States all just sitting there. At least SEPTA still runs... a lot of the MBTA trains here in Boston are getting suspended due to safety and maintenance issues.
Unfortunately the United States ship is sitting idle, slowly falling into disrepair. There are conservation efforts that can be found online
I literally did my midterm project for my city planning course on this exact topic. I spent more of it focusing on how the regional rail would be more useful to get there than the NHSL. But I am so on board with to BSL extensions. The BSL really needs a lot of love at the moment.
Extending the RRD *was* looked at early in the project. However cost projections were even more out of line for multiple reasons:
- The RRD is heavy-rail and runs off catenary, while the P&W is medium weight and uses third-rail power. An RRD extension would require more-expensive infrastructure.
- The operational model of the two systems is very different. The P&W was designed from its earliest days based on frequent service with short one or two car trains. The entire RRD model is longer trains every half hour. Knitting those two together would be cumbersome.
- Finally FRA regs would force the use of two-car RRD trains at all times with a separate conductor and driver. Again, more $$$.
Now where would you build a line that goes from the purple lane to the city center?
That's right! The square hole!
That's what I was expecting with that voice and tone.
Speaking of suburban transit extensions and NIMBYs, what do you make of the Glassboro to Camden line and the NIMBYs in Pitman trying to stop a station.
Galaxy Brain idea: use eminent domain and re-electrify the Trenton cutoff. Put stadler emus running on it from Bensalem to Downingtown with interchanges in willow grove, ft Washington and conshy
Actually, there WAS an idea called Cross-County Metro, which never got off paper. It basically was going to be a line between Morrisville and Downingtown on the cutoff. What basically killed it, besides lack of funding, was that none of the employment and retail centers it was eyeballed at being near, would be in walking distance of any of the stations, and in most cases, where walking could be done, none of the roads have sidewalks, as is the case in most suburbs. This would require employers near each station to have shuttle services to transport employees who would have been potential riders.
It also had far less support than Schuylkill Valley Metro did, and THAT project fell apart for a multitude of reasons that I won't get into right now except to say that had SEPTA taken an incremental approach to that project, it would likely have had a far better chance at funding. But the Feds balked at the cost of the whole shebang, which SEPTA wanted to do all at once... which was in the billions of dollars.
A general refurbishment/upgrade of the metro wouldn't be a bad idea either. I visited Philly a couple of weeks ago and man, every metro station entrance looked like some decrepit old gate to the dark depths of the netherworld, and smelled like a literal toilet as I walked by half the time. In the 6 days I was there, walking around the city a _lot_ , I saw someone going down to or coming out of a metro station maybe 4 times total. All of the locals (bartenders, shopkeepers, etc) I asked said that they don't really ride the metro and don't really know anyone who does. With having the appearance of only serving the absolute lowest caste of desperate, unfortunate souls, it's not hard to see why.
And they wonder why Septa focuses more on the suburbs, they call it systematic racism but it's more because of the issues you mentioned. No matter how much they try to keep stations clean they just get trashed so they don't even bother.
4:00
In Germany the same group that spent years protesting/lobbying for better rail-connections in an area near the austrian border and for moving traffic off the roads is now fighting HARD against a rail-line being expanded.
"They [SEPTA] literally shoot themselves in the foot"? I highly doubt that.
I'm half willing to defend the KOP extension insofar as it being the basis for untangling the mess that is KOP, but it draining so much away from the budget when so many other planned extensions are getting shafted is insane. Even in the realm of suburban extensions, several could be done for the same price with way higher ridership.
5:22 Anyone else reminded of the senate or the electoral college?
I don't know if you saw my tweet back on may 30th, but I'm glad you answered my questions one way or another !
The KOP Mall is one of the biggest in the world and thousand of people from the city work there. Traffic is horrible on 76 and 202 so the extension is sorely needed. Philadelphia and the surrounding suburbs has on of the most extensive mass transit in the country for all its fault.
The joy of seeing Delco listed as Delco at 5:08 can not be expressed fully. I live in Delco and commute to KoP. I would LOVE for there to be a mass transit option for me that makes sense. But alas, SEPTA is dumb and there isn't any unless I want to spend hours each way commuting way out of my way just to get point to point.