That's the clearest explanation of crossover component behaviour I've ever seen, as well as the justification for good quality components. I really like these instructive videos, please keep them coming.
This was really cool! I'd love to see more crossover design videos like this where you go through the process of designing a crossover and talking about your choices.
This video was pure gold for better understanding crossovers better. The biggest revelation is up to this point I thought the current was DC, not AC. Now knowing this I realize you have to be careful with the wires from the crossover to the drivers as to not accidentally induce current on nearby wires to other components. Thank-you Danny for taking the time to make this video.
This is an awesome video! It definitely needs a "part 2" follow-up showing how various alignment ratios or "Q" affect corner sharpness, phase shift, transient response etc. (Without giving away all of your trade secrets of course)
I don't agree with the use of the word resistance in this video. Unfortunately, the concepts of impedance, resistance, and reactance are very difficult. Resistance R is never frequency dependent. Pure capacitors and inductors have no resistance R only reactance X. Simple impedance Z is a vector not a scalar. A scalar has magnitude but a vector has magnitude and direction or phase. Impedance Z = R + jX where j² = -1. Magnitude of Z = √(R² + X²) and phase angle Θ = arctan(X/R). Reactance X is frequency dependent. Inductive reactance X = 2πfL and capacitive reactance X = 1/(2πfC). Total reactance X = inductive reactance X - capacitive reactance X. When reactance X is zero, impedance Z = resistance R and phase angle equals zero. In general phase shift between high pass and low pass filters is 90° per filter order and must be considered. Real inductors have both resistance and reactance that must be considered in the design of the passive crossover filter. The impedance of the speaker driver that loads the passive crossover filter is more complex than simple resistance or simple impedance. Iron core inductors should never be used in passive crossovers because they have magnetic saturation and hysteresis nonlinearities that produce distortion.
Good to see some knows and understands the complexity of this. Now you should really blow their minds and tell them current doesn't actually pass thru the cap!
Love, love, love your work... I am a huge follower in your efforts and thinking. I often hit like before even viewing... you just know it will be great content ~ no vetting required ~ take it as gospel... THANK YOU for the effort!!!!!
Of course everithing is in the signal path. If someone says that "it's not important because it's not in the signal path" why not just remove the component completly? That would save a lot of money. Great video Danny!
Looked at this video a second time. Maybe worth to notice that a) you never get more energy output with any filter. It may look like it in this video. But you "shape" the energy in the frequency domain. The energy without any filter component will allways be the most. Also bear in mind that even and uneven order filters produce different phase (delay) in the output! b) you are still running XP ;)
I've recently discovered your channel , and I'm loving it! So much info, so clearly explained , I'm watching all videos, currently at tech talk 16 🤓.. could you maybe share more songs that you love and use to test systems? Way down deep surprised me! Keep up the great work, thank you for putting in so much effort
I bought a kit for my Klipsch RP-600M’s as test units. I can’t wait to get it and see how it goes. I’m a bit nervous, but if I get it done well, I’ll get the kits for my bigger speakers.
Kirchoff's laws say the sum of all current into a node is zero and the sum of all voltages around a loop is zero. In the second order filter example, the sum of the current in the two parallel elements is equal to the current in the one series element. The part that makes it weird is that current in inductors and capacitors is 180° out of phase, so the current through the speaker element is dependent on the ratio of the voltage across the one series element to the voltage across the two parallel elements.
I've wondered about that, if the second component that is 'just' passing some of the signal really is out of the path and now I see that it's not. This was a great explanation.
At last I’m just starting to understand crossover design and values!! ( still complex to get right) Thanks very much for these vids … keep up the great work.
Great, informative video. I just learned that one should h use good quality film caps as shunts .......as well as in series with the driver.This is he first time I have heard anyone say this.
The parallel component of the filter is in the signal path because it changes the impedance of the two parallel elements in series with the one series element. The series reactive element and the parallel reactive element function as a frequency dependent voltage divider.
You cannot get through with this message, although you are correct. I think you have commented on this channel before, as have I, and Danny will not change his beliefs.
An interesting thing to measure when testing a crossover is that if you connect it to resistors instead of speakers and put in one Volt (of AC), you'll get out MORE than 1 Volt at particular frequencies where the caps and inductors are creating resonance. The phenomenon is reduced when the crossover is hooked up to actual speakers ( to reactive loads), but I believe this is at the heart of why frequency response charts show increased output the when the crossover components are added to the circuit being tested. Danny, if I'm wrong about this, please feel free to set me straight.
I shall ask this question to my professors at the university when I had a chance. I just took the different shapes of filter types for granted. Or maybe I just didn't pay attention as I should :). But, great that you did the experiment because this is exactly what I think. There is a reason why filters are done with reactive components. They store energy. The voltage must change depending on frequency because energy is stored in the coil and capacitor. So, reactive components do matter. Resistors not, if are bypassing then they do not count. Resistors do not store energy.
I really enjoyed the simulations or rather measurements on the speaker components. It would also be cool to see how this woofer and tweeter will match up. Also could you discuss phase shift as a function of the order of the filter and when to invert the polarity of the tweeter to counter that? In this respect there are (or have been) speaker builders who set the tweeter further to the back (also to compensate for the cone depth of the woofer). What do you think about this practice, can something be gained from it? And what are the draw backs? OK I know I am asking for a lot here but blame it on enthusiasm.
I appreciate your videos! Keep'em coming. I would though like to see really advanced topics in crossover designs, as there are a lot of basic/introduction to crossovers on RUclips.
Since discovering this channel I have unsubscribed from quite a few other hi-fi sites because they now just seem like a bunch of folks presenting their opinions on stuff they know relatively little about when compared with Danny!
Thank you! Too often I've heard or read comments about the quality of the shunt components in an x-over not being that important. Everything that affects the overall response is important :-)
You'd be surprised how much it matters. In amplifiers, even the power supply caps are technically in the signal path, as they source the high instantaneous current for the main stage. A problematic high ESR and parasitic inductance in even the power supply caps can cause a problem with high frequency response because it cannot supply the current fast enough for the highest frequencies. Using a lower capacitance, lower ESR cap to bypass it could help aid with supplying quick power to high frequencies while also avoiding power supply sag by having a large capacitor for the low frequencies. It was quite the surprise for me when I learned this fact.
So the crossover of the XLS Encore is second order on bass and third order on treble. In the upgraded crossover, what do the Mitek extra capacitors do, in parallel to the Sonicaps? I'm a total novice, but guess that resistors are there to adjust sensitivity levels, but then again I'm not sure what the 12 Ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter does. This is fascinating, and thank you for the clear explanation!
Thanks for posting this! Those comparison measurements really help visualize things! Q: you mentioned the quality of components. How does the quality of various components (of same value) affect the signal negatively/positively, i.e. would a higher quality component simply result in a smoother curve with fewer/smaller ripples, or is there more to it? Would be nice seeing those comparison measurements as well.
Higher quality parts don't effect an amplitude measurement. They will measure the same. But they greatly effect smearing, clarity, detail levels, space between notes, etc. And those things effect sound stage layering, imaging, depth, etc.
You da MAN, Dan The Man! The only time I ever built a crossover was back in 1990 when I put Vifa drivers in a Suzuki Swift GT. I did a pretty good job considering I was winging it. Come to think of it that was so long ago I thought the earth was a ball at the time. I'm older and wiser now. Extremely wise, Dan! Join us!
And that's probably because it is false to say it they _generally_ do so. :) They just potentially _can_. In all these examples the "increased" level was still lower than that without any crossover. Except for 1st order filters, different filter characteristics can be obtained by changing the relative values of the components in use. You might have heard of filter types like Bessel, Butterworth, Chebyshev or Linkweitz-Riley (not all of which can be had with all filter orders). These filter types are really discrete alignments of all values included that usually aim for zero ripple transfer functions (except for the Chebyshev filter, which trades in some ripple for a steeper roll-off). The part that is missing in this introductory explanation (but should be obvious) is that you cannot simply combine any inductor with any capacitor. If you want to achieve a certain filter characteristic and crossover point for a given order network feeding a given load, then (in theory and in first approximation) there is exactly one set of component values to fulfill this aim. But then again, reality bites. First, the load a dynamic speaker presents to the filter network is also frequency dependent. We do have a voice coil which after all is still a coil, so it represents itself as an inductor (which unfortunately even spots not a constant, but a frequency dependent inductance, and there's really even more non-linearity involved I don't even want to mention). And then there's the mechanical base resonance of each driver which _transforms_ into an impedance peak (or more, depending on the cabinet construction). So, our load is not only not constant, it also isn't fully resistive. It's a complex impedance having reactive components, inductive and capacitive. It should be clear from this that we cannot expect a textbook filter alignment to work on an actual loudspeaker. And then again the driver mounted in the cabinet develops a transfer function with notable imperfections. The desire to correct those is another reason to pick individual component values much different from the theoretical ideal. Naturally, the more components you have in your high pass or low pass filter, the more levels of freedom you have. But still, it is not a _general characteristic_ of higher order filters to _add_ level. It's a design decision to dimension them that way. And you must be careful with that. You can design a higher order filter to actually add to the _absolute_ output level of the driver. The reason why this is possible is simple: resonance! And that's something that you usually don't want to have. You can intentionally design a non-linear transfer function network to compensate the named imperfections and this is perfectly fine. However, if at some point the SPL of filter plus speaker exceeds the level of the speaker without a filter, you know that you've gone to far. This resonance is not going to sound well. It is going to spoil the step response and will cause booming well visible in the waterfall diagram. Nowadays nobody's trying out myriads of different component values. Look at the SPL under different angles and at the waterfall usually gives the designer a good idea of what order of filter he should start with for each driver. The the computer will take over and create a simulation that usually targets a flat and smooth frequency response. However - especially if you employ a higher order filter and maybe some correction filter like e.g. notch filter - most simulations will tend to fill out even the smallest dip in the transfer function. If your simulator can only optimize the overall SPL response (not the individual HF and LF paths with desired filter slopes) it will even start to fill dips in the woofer's response by adding peaks to the tweeters response. There's no way this is going to sound good. After all, as of 2020 it is still the designer that has to make key decisions on which component values to fix and when. And then of course he still has to check simulation vs. measurement (usually this will be pretty perfect) and measurement vs. listening. Repeat as often as desired. And don't go over the top with filters adding level to a speakers output. :)
An inductor does not permit AC to pass through it but allows DC. A capacitor behaves in the opposite way, allowing AC to pass but blocking DC. This is why you can use the same physical wiring in a valve amplifier to run AC and DC through.
Sure this was very helpful to me. This is the answer I was looking for. Now I know every part is in the signal path. But does that also apply to a impedance correction? Thank you for this explanation, I learn a lot of your videos.
Thought provoking. After replacing my 4x KT120's a driver tube roll to far, I had to have the output caps changed in my 100w tube amplifier for Audyn reference this necessitated different and closer 3 w 1% not the original 5% tolerance resistors to maintain the 0.8 Hz cut off frequency, neither were by-pass caps needed; A vast improvement audibly and also on an oscilloscope square waves etc.. They are in the signal path so a little extrapolation to include crossover components including phase is possible. I use OTA Quad 57's which are phase inverting my supertweeters have reversed wiring so are in phase with the speakers... MY phono stage & pre-amp have upgraded components because they are in the signal path ditto my home made pure silver phono leads.
YESSS Lindsey Stirling is awesome! I love your videos, keep them coming. When's your new website going live? I'm hoping for a dual-woofer floorstanding version of the NX-Studio monitor ;-)
Very nicely done Danny. There are so very many myths and misconceptions about audio technology and we need guys like you to help set things straight. This is especially true when issues involving acoustics, perception and audibility come up. I don't know if you want to venture down that path, but if you have the courage, a subject that would be worthy of research, subjective testing and correlation with objective measurements is time and phase sensitivity in regards to speaker and crossover design. I think that would be a timely subject given that PS Audio just posted a video about that, but it was addressed only in a general discussion about their senior speaker designer's beliefs without any real evidence to support the beliefs. One comment about your explanation of the role of the shunt component, I believe that the extra power to the driver comes from the collapsing electromagnetic field in the case of an inductor or the collapsing electrostatic field in the case of a capacitor. I don't think it comes from the amplifier ground as you pointed to on your diagram. PS - I just watched the Lindsey Stirling video and just loved it. Thanks for helping me discover more great talent out there.
I also saw that at PS audio. Kinda had me scratching my head. Never heard anywhere else that you had to use first order to be time aligned. I do seem to recall the the phrase ' time aligned ' is copyrighted and licenced with certain criteria needing to be met. I have seen it suggested to use different orders of crossovers between drivers to bring them in phase at the crossover frequency.
@@andrewkelly1225 Yes, time alignment is another one of those controversial subjects that isn't all that well understood, especially in regards to the audibility of it. These days, with such powerful DSP like Dirac, it is possible to easily manipulate such things as phase and delay, so it should be possible to rather easily test the audibility of time alignment sensitivity.
Hi Danny,very insightful, I'm fixing to get my xls and was hoping you would do an instructional video on putting thier crossover together,I thought you said you would,as there's been a spike in the kit sales there's slot of us that would appreciate it
The first time I encountered this: Infinity reference. Arnie Nudell used a 450-1000uf electrolytic in the crossover. I was stunned. How does a decent speaker like this have such junk? After looking at what it was for Ah! The cap in question, was simply for the woofer, NOT in the path of the mid/tweeter. It was an HF "choke." I replaced the cap with a new quality electrolytic just due to age.
If it's not in the signal path, how on earth can it affect the speaker's response? Doesn't a xover need to manipulate the signal and therefore be in it's path?
A cap isn't bringing anything from the negative side, it's literally storing energy on the positive side and releasing it when power is gone. An amp doesn't send power over the negative side, only the positive side. It's absolutely not in the signal path, it's jut releasing energy on the existing path.
By-pass caps have very little effect in the measured response when looking at frequency response. And the difference in sound is not related to frequency response.
How about an L pad resistor? The shunt Resistor? In line with this explanation, is it right to think that a shunt resistor in an Lpad is in the signal path...
Yes, any inductance in the resistor will affect the intended filter characteristic thus alter the intended response. The question should be how much inductance is inherent in the resistor and how much does it affect the resultant sound.
@@dannyrichie9743 well there isn't any significant capacitance so you must be talking about resistance. In that case, it's only about tolerance which would only affect the voltage division and thus the level of the driver output. There isn't anything else it could be.
@Danny Why is the serial component always first and after that the shunt/parallel? What is the effect if you shunt first and then put a serial component in? Would it act the same for AC current? (edit: 2nd order that is)
you should start a business for people to send in their speaker for component upgrade. you got the knowledge and skill for it that not make have. it will be profitable. just like mercedes having AMG and brabus kind of concept.
If all components are in the signal path, it should stand to reason that the avid DIYer use the best quality components they can afford. In the same vein, is there an argument for using as few components as possible to achieve a sufficiently smooth response?
The way you're describing a capacitor in the circuit is misleading. You say it's an open circuit, but then, describe elections at higher frequency going through it. higher frequencies don't "pass" through, they pass AROUND it because they can charge and discharge either side of the capacitor. The very fast signals "fit" within the available capacity of the capacitor, while the longer, slower signals FILL one side and completely discharge the other before the wave has completed, resulting in attenuation.
I know this has been said before, but this is the best crossover's order demonstration i've ever seen in almost 40 years. Thank you very much!
This was extremely helpful. It was very well done. Thank you!
That's the clearest explanation of crossover component behaviour I've ever seen, as well as the justification for good quality components. I really like these instructive videos, please keep them coming.
This was really cool! I'd love to see more crossover design videos like this where you go through the process of designing a crossover and talking about your choices.
This video was pure gold for better understanding crossovers better. The biggest revelation is up to this point I thought the current was DC, not AC. Now knowing this I realize you have to be careful with the wires from the crossover to the drivers as to not accidentally induce current on nearby wires to other components. Thank-you Danny for taking the time to make this video.
This is an awesome video! It definitely needs a "part 2" follow-up showing how various alignment ratios or "Q" affect corner sharpness, phase shift, transient response etc. (Without giving away all of your trade secrets of course)
I ditch the crossover all together and connect each speaker directly to a separate channel on the amplifier and pre-filter via the signal path.
I don't agree with the use of the word resistance in this video. Unfortunately, the concepts of impedance, resistance, and reactance are very difficult. Resistance R is never frequency dependent. Pure capacitors and inductors have no resistance R only reactance X. Simple impedance Z is a vector not a scalar. A scalar has magnitude but a vector has magnitude and direction or phase. Impedance Z = R + jX where j² = -1. Magnitude of Z = √(R² + X²) and phase angle Θ = arctan(X/R). Reactance X is frequency dependent. Inductive reactance X = 2πfL and capacitive reactance X = 1/(2πfC). Total reactance X = inductive reactance X - capacitive reactance X. When reactance X is zero, impedance Z = resistance R and phase angle equals zero. In general phase shift between high pass and low pass filters is 90° per filter order and must be considered. Real inductors have both resistance and reactance that must be considered in the design of the passive crossover filter. The impedance of the speaker driver that loads the passive crossover filter is more complex than simple resistance or simple impedance. Iron core inductors should never be used in passive crossovers because they have magnetic saturation and hysteresis nonlinearities that produce distortion.
Good to see some knows and understands the complexity of this. Now you should really blow their minds and tell them current doesn't actually pass thru the cap!
Love, love, love your work... I am a huge follower in your efforts and thinking.
I often hit like before even viewing... you just know it will be great content
~ no vetting required ~ take it as gospel... THANK YOU for the effort!!!!!
Of course everithing is in the signal path. If someone says that "it's not important because it's not in the signal path" why not just remove the component completly? That would save a lot of money. Great video Danny!
Danny, that was an excellent presentation on the fundamentals.
Looked at this video a second time. Maybe worth to notice that a) you never get more energy output with any filter. It may look like it in this video. But you "shape" the energy in the frequency domain. The energy without any filter component will allways be the most. Also bear in mind that even and uneven order filters produce different phase (delay) in the output! b) you are still running XP ;)
Thanks Danny. I've been starting to get my feet wet with XOs and measurement software. This is the most helpful tutorial Ive have seen to date.
I've recently discovered your channel , and I'm loving it! So much info, so clearly explained , I'm watching all videos, currently at tech talk 16 🤓.. could you maybe share more songs that you love and use to test systems? Way down deep surprised me! Keep up the great work, thank you for putting in so much effort
my favorite audio related tutorial i have seen so far.
I bought a kit for my Klipsch RP-600M’s as test units. I can’t wait to get it and see how it goes. I’m a bit nervous, but if I get it done well, I’ll get the kits for my bigger speakers.
Great video! Keep them coming...cheers
Always great wealth of knowledge and information! Thank you .
Thanks. That was really useful. First time I have seen the shunt part of crossover explained and really easy to understand.
Kirchoff's laws say the sum of all current into a node is zero and the sum of all voltages around a loop is zero. In the second order filter example, the sum of the current in the two parallel elements is equal to the current in the one series element. The part that makes it weird is that current in inductors and capacitors is 180° out of phase, so the current through the speaker element is dependent on the ratio of the voltage across the one series element to the voltage across the two parallel elements.
Not really. Watch this video, but it will be difficult to understand unless your an EE with lab experience.
ruclips.net/video/LzT_YZ0xCFY/видео.html
Thank’s Danny for taking the time, building my crossovers now for xls all info is welcome .
Beautiful practical presentation.
I've wondered about that, if the second component that is 'just' passing some of the signal really is out of the path and now I see that it's not. This was a great explanation.
At last I’m just starting to understand crossover design and values!! ( still complex to get right) Thanks very much for these vids … keep up the great work.
Great, informative video. I just learned that one should h use good quality film caps as shunts .......as well as in series with the driver.This is he first time I have heard anyone say this.
Thank you. Love your in-depth audio tech videos.
Another great video!
I knew all that stuff, and it was still helpful.
Keep them coming.
Very informative Danny, thank you. It would also be interesting to see how inductance of resistors play a part in crossover performance.
The parallel component of the filter is in the signal path because it changes the impedance of the two parallel elements in series with the one series element. The series reactive element and the parallel reactive element function as a frequency dependent voltage divider.
You cannot get through with this message, although you are correct. I think you have commented on this channel before, as have I, and Danny will not change his beliefs.
Thanks Danny, helpful as always!! You rock!! Windows XP running on the pc, you’re old school as heck!! Cheers
Thank you so much for the explanation, man! Awesome! Helped me a lot!
Danny is a good guy to buy speakers & crossovers from, great experience.
An interesting thing to measure when testing a crossover is that if you connect it to resistors instead of speakers and put in one Volt (of AC), you'll get out MORE than 1 Volt at particular frequencies where the caps and inductors are creating resonance. The phenomenon is reduced when the crossover is hooked up to actual speakers ( to reactive loads), but I believe this is at the heart of why frequency response charts show increased output the when the crossover components are added to the circuit being tested. Danny, if I'm wrong about this, please feel free to set me straight.
I shall ask this question to my professors at the university when I had a chance. I just took the different shapes of filter types for granted. Or maybe I just didn't pay attention as I should :). But, great that you did the experiment because this is exactly what I think. There is a reason why filters are done with reactive components. They store energy. The voltage must change depending on frequency because energy is stored in the coil and capacitor. So, reactive components do matter. Resistors not, if are bypassing then they do not count. Resistors do not store energy.
Artistry in technical/educational communication here too!!! Congrats; ...Thanks 👍 !!!.
I really enjoyed the simulations or rather measurements on the speaker components. It would also be cool to see how this woofer and tweeter will match up. Also could you discuss phase shift as a function of the order of the filter and when to invert the polarity of the tweeter to counter that?
In this respect there are (or have been) speaker builders who set the tweeter further to the back (also to compensate for the cone depth of the woofer). What do you think about this practice, can something be gained from it? And what are the draw backs?
OK I know I am asking for a lot here but blame it on enthusiasm.
Hi Danny. Can you do a video about cabinets,resonance and what damping and good box do for the response :)
Great video Danny, thanks.
Very well demonstrated!!
Straight forward and informative. Thanks.
I appreciate your videos! Keep'em coming. I would though like to see really advanced topics in crossover designs, as there are a lot of basic/introduction to crossovers on RUclips.
Since discovering this channel I have unsubscribed from quite a few other hi-fi sites because they now just seem like a bunch of folks presenting their opinions on stuff they know relatively little about when compared with Danny!
I haven't done that yet but I feel the same... I mostly watch them less frequent and with a lot more skepticism.
@@ASSOpid and a joker every minute, it would seem.
@@ASSOpid Results confirm what I say. Keep watching. You'll learn.
@@ASSOpid Sorry, but I'm the opposite that.
He is the king of audio knowledge.
Thank you! Too often I've heard or read comments about the quality of the shunt components in an x-over not being that important. Everything that affects the overall response is important :-)
You'd be surprised how much it matters. In amplifiers, even the power supply caps are technically in the signal path, as they source the high instantaneous current for the main stage. A problematic high ESR and parasitic inductance in even the power supply caps can cause a problem with high frequency response because it cannot supply the current fast enough for the highest frequencies. Using a lower capacitance, lower ESR cap to bypass it could help aid with supplying quick power to high frequencies while also avoiding power supply sag by having a large capacitor for the low frequencies.
It was quite the surprise for me when I learned this fact.
You have been making "Hifi" glitches so much easier to understand. Thanks
So the crossover of the XLS Encore is second order on bass and third order on treble. In the upgraded crossover, what do the Mitek extra capacitors do, in parallel to the Sonicaps? I'm a total novice, but guess that resistors are there to adjust sensitivity levels, but then again I'm not sure what the 12 Ohm resistor in parallel with the tweeter does. This is fascinating, and thank you for the clear explanation!
Very enlightening. Thank you!
Great video Danny! Very informative.
Cool. I just learned some useful stuff. Thanks Danny!
Thanks for posting this! Those comparison measurements really help visualize things! Q: you mentioned the quality of components. How does the quality of various components (of same value) affect the signal negatively/positively, i.e. would a higher quality component simply result in a smoother curve with fewer/smaller ripples, or is there more to it? Would be nice seeing those comparison measurements as well.
Higher quality parts don't effect an amplitude measurement. They will measure the same. But they greatly effect smearing, clarity, detail levels, space between notes, etc. And those things effect sound stage layering, imaging, depth, etc.
Thank you! Very helpful video!
All your informative tubes are well received man, between yourself and Ron, you make an excellent team to inform us punters 🎶 have a good one ✌🏽
Learned something again today.
You da MAN, Dan The Man!
The only time I ever built a crossover was back in 1990 when I put Vifa drivers in a Suzuki Swift GT. I did a pretty good job considering I was winging it.
Come to think of it that was so long ago I thought the earth was a ball at the time.
I'm older and wiser now.
Extremely wise, Dan! Join us!
What I dint know is that a 2nd and 3rd order filter actually adds something to spl.
Thank you! Great stuff!
And that's probably because it is false to say it they _generally_ do so. :) They just potentially _can_. In all these examples the "increased" level was still lower than that without any crossover. Except for 1st order filters, different filter characteristics can be obtained by changing the relative values of the components in use. You might have heard of filter types like Bessel, Butterworth, Chebyshev or Linkweitz-Riley (not all of which can be had with all filter orders).
These filter types are really discrete alignments of all values included that usually aim for zero ripple transfer functions (except for the Chebyshev filter, which trades in some ripple for a steeper roll-off). The part that is missing in this introductory explanation (but should be obvious) is that you cannot simply combine any inductor with any capacitor. If you want to achieve a certain filter characteristic and crossover point for a given order network feeding a given load, then (in theory and in first approximation) there is exactly one set of component values to fulfill this aim. But then again, reality bites.
First, the load a dynamic speaker presents to the filter network is also frequency dependent. We do have a voice coil which after all is still a coil, so it represents itself as an inductor (which unfortunately even spots not a constant, but a frequency dependent inductance, and there's really even more non-linearity involved I don't even want to mention). And then there's the mechanical base resonance of each driver which _transforms_ into an impedance peak (or more, depending on the cabinet construction). So, our load is not only not constant, it also isn't fully resistive. It's a complex impedance having reactive components, inductive and capacitive. It should be clear from this that we cannot expect a textbook filter alignment to work on an actual loudspeaker.
And then again the driver mounted in the cabinet develops a transfer function with notable imperfections. The desire to correct those is another reason to pick individual component values much different from the theoretical ideal. Naturally, the more components you have in your high pass or low pass filter, the more levels of freedom you have. But still, it is not a _general characteristic_ of higher order filters to _add_ level. It's a design decision to dimension them that way.
And you must be careful with that. You can design a higher order filter to actually add to the _absolute_ output level of the driver. The reason why this is possible is simple: resonance! And that's something that you usually don't want to have. You can intentionally design a non-linear transfer function network to compensate the named imperfections and this is perfectly fine. However, if at some point the SPL of filter plus speaker exceeds the level of the speaker without a filter, you know that you've gone to far. This resonance is not going to sound well. It is going to spoil the step response and will cause booming well visible in the waterfall diagram.
Nowadays nobody's trying out myriads of different component values. Look at the SPL under different angles and at the waterfall usually gives the designer a good idea of what order of filter he should start with for each driver. The the computer will take over and create a simulation that usually targets a flat and smooth frequency response. However - especially if you employ a higher order filter and maybe some correction filter like e.g. notch filter - most simulations will tend to fill out even the smallest dip in the transfer function. If your simulator can only optimize the overall SPL response (not the individual HF and LF paths with desired filter slopes) it will even start to fill dips in the woofer's response by adding peaks to the tweeters response. There's no way this is going to sound good.
After all, as of 2020 it is still the designer that has to make key decisions on which component values to fix and when. And then of course he still has to check simulation vs. measurement (usually this will be pretty perfect) and measurement vs. listening. Repeat as often as desired. And don't go over the top with filters adding level to a speakers output. :)
An inductor does not permit AC to pass through it but allows DC.
A capacitor behaves in the opposite way, allowing AC to pass but blocking DC.
This is why you can use the same physical wiring in a valve amplifier to run AC and DC through.
Sure this was very helpful to me. This is the answer I was looking for. Now I know every part is in the signal path. But does that also apply to a impedance correction?
Thank you for this explanation, I learn a lot of your videos.
Great video. Clearly explained.
I can't get me head around passive crossovers. That's why I'm a fan of Powered speakers.
Thanks so much. Very helpful...
Thought provoking. After replacing my 4x KT120's a driver tube roll to far, I had to have the output caps changed in my 100w tube amplifier for Audyn reference this necessitated different and closer 3 w 1% not the original 5% tolerance resistors to maintain the 0.8 Hz cut off frequency, neither were by-pass caps needed; A vast improvement audibly and also on an oscilloscope square waves etc.. They are in the signal path so a little extrapolation to include crossover components including phase is possible. I use OTA Quad 57's which are phase inverting my supertweeters have reversed wiring so are in phase with the speakers... MY phono stage & pre-amp have upgraded components because they are in the signal path ditto my home made pure silver phono leads.
Great stuff.
Excellent thank you very much.
YESSS Lindsey Stirling is awesome!
I love your videos, keep them coming.
When's your new website going live? I'm hoping for a dual-woofer floorstanding version of the NX-Studio monitor ;-)
I think except resistors. They do not store energy so if they are out of path they are out.
Very nicely done Danny. There are so very many myths and misconceptions about audio technology and we need guys like you to help set things straight. This is especially true when issues involving acoustics, perception and audibility come up. I don't know if you want to venture down that path, but if you have the courage, a subject that would be worthy of research, subjective testing and correlation with objective measurements is time and phase sensitivity in regards to speaker and crossover design. I think that would be a timely subject given that PS Audio just posted a video about that, but it was addressed only in a general discussion about their senior speaker designer's beliefs without any real evidence to support the beliefs.
One comment about your explanation of the role of the shunt component, I believe that the extra power to the driver comes from the collapsing electromagnetic field in the case of an inductor or the collapsing electrostatic field in the case of a capacitor. I don't think it comes from the amplifier ground as you pointed to on your diagram.
PS - I just watched the Lindsey Stirling video and just loved it. Thanks for helping me discover more great talent out there.
I also saw that at PS audio. Kinda had me scratching my head. Never heard anywhere else that you had to use first order to be time aligned. I do seem to recall the the phrase ' time aligned ' is copyrighted and licenced with certain criteria needing to be met. I have seen it suggested to use different orders of crossovers between drivers to bring them in phase at the crossover frequency.
@@andrewkelly1225 Yes, time alignment is another one of those controversial subjects that isn't all that well understood, especially in regards to the audibility of it. These days, with such powerful DSP like Dirac, it is possible to easily manipulate such things as phase and delay, so it should be possible to rather easily test the audibility of time alignment sensitivity.
Hi Danny,very insightful,
I'm fixing to get my xls and was hoping you would do an instructional video on putting thier crossover together,I thought you said you would,as there's been a spike in the kit sales there's slot of us that would appreciate it
I will. It is on my list.
@@dannyrichie9743 that's great,very much looking forward to that.
Thanks Danny ! 😃
The first time I encountered this: Infinity reference. Arnie Nudell used a 450-1000uf electrolytic in the crossover. I was stunned. How does a decent speaker like this have such junk?
After looking at what it was for Ah! The cap in question, was simply for the woofer, NOT in the path of the mid/tweeter. It was an HF "choke."
I replaced the cap with a new quality electrolytic just due to age.
It is still in the signal path and the quality of that part still effects the sound.
Way to go Mr. Richie - Rusty approved! ;)
If it's not in the signal path, how on earth can it affect the speaker's response?
Doesn't a xover need to manipulate the signal and therefore be in it's path?
A cap isn't bringing anything from the negative side, it's literally storing energy on the positive side and releasing it when power is gone. An amp doesn't send power over the negative side, only the positive side. It's absolutely not in the signal path, it's jut releasing energy on the existing path.
@@Clobercow1
Exactly, then it cannot affect the signal.
Circuit "Q" controls that gain
Totally great, thanks.
Been listening to Sterling for years.
Nice job Sluggo
Thank you, so much, for this. Any chance you can show the impact of the bypass caps on the resulting circuit graphically?
Thanks!
By-pass caps have very little effect in the measured response when looking at frequency response. And the difference in sound is not related to frequency response.
How about an L pad resistor? The shunt Resistor? In line with this explanation, is it right to think that a shunt resistor in an Lpad is in the signal path...
Yes, it is in the signal path.
Yes, any inductance in the resistor will affect the intended filter characteristic thus alter the intended response. The question should be how much inductance is inherent in the resistor and how much does it affect the resultant sound.
@@StewartMarkley It is not just the inductance that has an effect.
@@dannyrichie9743 well there isn't any significant capacitance so you must be talking about resistance. In that case, it's only about tolerance which would only affect the voltage division and thus the level of the driver output. There isn't anything else it could be.
@@StewartMarkley No, how they are made and the types of material used all effects how they sound. It isn't just about LCR.
Thanks a lot, great!
Any phase issues with bridging positive and negative?
I'm curious. How do you quantify all of these high cost and high quality components just to wire them up to a thin aluminum terminal on a speaker?
We never use thin Aluminum terminals. We only use the best: gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors.aspx
@@dannyrichie9743 On the speaker driver itself.
@@Clobercow1 Most of our drivers use pure Copper terminals that are Gold coated.
Very informative sir.. thank you..
Plz make a video on step by step cross over makeing. it will be very helpful for everyone 😇..
He can't it would be thousand hour video.
@@gmak8052 we are ready to watch it 😜..
What about B&W 683 original upgrade.
Danny great video. I have a question that off topic for this video but I think it's a easy one. At what avg. db level do you normally listen at?
It depends on the type of music, but probably 75 to 85db. Some music warrants higher levels or higher peaks.
@Danny Why is the serial component always first and after that the shunt/parallel? What is the effect if you shunt first and then put a serial component in? Would it act the same for AC current? (edit: 2nd order that is)
If you put a shunt inductor first before the series cap then you'll create a dead short.
you should start a business for people to send in their speaker for component upgrade. you got the knowledge and skill for it that not make have. it will be profitable. just like mercedes having AMG and brabus kind of concept.
Cindy Wagner - devil
If all components are in the signal path, it should stand to reason that the avid DIYer use the best quality components they can afford. In the same vein, is there an argument for using as few components as possible to achieve a sufficiently smooth response?
P.S. The level of technical detail in your videos is perfect, Danny. I never go away feeling like an idiot for not understanding the lesson.
Correct on both accounts. Quality parts and fewer parts to do the job is the way go.
The way you're describing a capacitor in the circuit is misleading. You say it's an open circuit, but then, describe elections at higher frequency going through it. higher frequencies don't "pass" through, they pass AROUND it because they can charge and discharge either side of the capacitor. The very fast signals "fit" within the available capacity of the capacitor, while the longer, slower signals FILL one side and completely discharge the other before the wave has completed, resulting in attenuation.
You forgot resistors :^)
Airixis is the original recording artist of that piece. ruclips.net/video/q_vj7Pjsa4U/видео.html
What’s your opinion of the Clio pocket? Great video!
Best budget level testing system out there. It is also pretty easy to learn.
Windows XP? JK, Great video as usual
On this computer, yes, and not connected to the internet.
Danny Richie sometimes you need an older OS to run that decade(s) old app that has only the bells and whistles you need😉
A lot of famous pro recording mixing EQ use inductors.
In all honesty, Danny is a handsome guy even in this age.