Is the Ivory-billed Woodpecker Tricking us Into Thinking It's Extinct? (With Chris Haney)
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- Dr. Chris Haney, President and Founder of Terra Mar Applied Sciences LLC discusses his new book "Woody's Last Laugh - How the "Extinct" Ivory-billed Woodpecker Fools Us Into Making 53 Thinking Errors". Dr. Haney has expertise in marine sciences, wildlife biology, ecosystem management, and more. He has authored over 80 peer-reviewed journals, technical notes, and book chapters with work featured in journals such as The Auk, Conservation Biology, and Natural History. In this presentation we discuss "Lazarus Species", which are species that are re-found after being presumed extinct, the history of the Ivory-billed Woodpecker, and how our thoughts are molded by different ideas about the bird.
You can purchase the book here (As Amazon Associates we do earn from qualifying purchases): amzn.to/3rSz9sQ
You can learn more about Chris Here: www.terramarappliedsciences.c...
Cover photo of Chris by J. Chris Haney
All other photos and videos by Derek and Ryan Sallmann
#Birding #BirdWatching #BadgerlandBirding
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Thanks so much for watching! You can purchase Dr. Haney's book here (As Amazon Associates we do earn from qualifying purchases): amzn.to/3rSz9sQ
The way this guy says “my fellow humans” makes me think he’s the ivory bill in disguise
Haha, time to break out the DNA testing equipment
There are so many reasons to believe that the Singer Tract birds were not the last. Regarding finding them. It often took 3 days or more for Tanner to find the birds in the Singer Tract. A tiny piece of land that had half a dozen or so birds. When Cornell initially went to record the birds it took days and days with guides to find them. So when you look at places like the Apalachicola River forests, is it any wonder that it would be hard to find them? Also, Tanner was tasked with using his wits and a small budget to go look and survey most of the southeastern USA to find the birds. And he didn't. He was one man. And he ID'd places that might harbor the birds and visited them, often on foot or a borrowed or rented boat. One man. And he'd spend just a few days in any given area. And then concluded there were no birds. How does one man, spend 2-3 days along the Suwannee River in Florida in a canoe decide there are NO birds?
There were a plethora of flaws in Tanner's research and his paper, later published as a book, are taken as Gospel by most birders.
One overlooked aspect of the Singer Tract birds is this... the nests that Tanner observed were failing for the most part. The diet he observed did not match the stomach contents of previously recorded birds. He surmised that for the birds to survive, they MUST be consuming the very large beetle larvae found in the hardwood trees of the Singer Tract. We know from contents studied that they consumed MANY things and that the larvae were but a small bit of the total contents. He observed mites in the nests and that the babies were gone. Is it possible that the trees the birds in the Singer Tract were not suitable for raising babies and that successful nests were likely in a different habitat?
The Singer Tract birds MAY have been forced in there by logging in the surrounding habitats and they were only getting by. We don't know. But the "experts" would have you believe that these birds were the BLUEPRINT for the natural history of ALL Ivorybills.
And what happened to the birds? When the artist went in and painted the supposed last bird before the forest was destroyed it was surmised this was the last bird. So what did all the others do as well as this one? See the trees come down and just drop dead? Why wouldn't they fly somewhere else?
It's a misconception that the deforestation of the southeastern United States left ZERO forests anywhere. This simply wasn't the case. There were forests left all over, mind you, they weren't pristine virgin forests like the Singer Tract but there WERE places for the birds to go and to continue to live.
Arthur Allen and his wife saw Ivory Bills in the logged piney woods in Central Florida.
And many, many people have seen them but their observations are largely dismissed, possibly rightfully so because of the amount of people who claim Ivorybills but see Pileated. And even today, the amount of people who VIDEO Pileateds and claim Ivorybills is frustrating. But must we dismiss EVERY sighting?
I think the work of Mike Collins and the Auburn team in the Florida woods cannot be dismissed at hand. And it's usually very LOUD and VOCAL people who've never stepped foot in the woods who dismiss this.
Very little work has been done to try to verify the existence of the bird. When you look at the details of Cornell's search in the big woods of Arkansas, you'll see a very limited and inadequate search of a MASSIVE stretch of wet forests.
Even the Auburn team were barely scratching the amount of woods available to the birds and yet they had observations. And yet no further BIG searches of this area have been done.
Mike Collins went in to the Pearl region, his interest being piqued after being on the Stennis property and HEARING vocalizations along the river woods adjacent to the property. One man, went in by himself and tried to tackle the entire river system there and managed to bring back some compelling evidence but who has gone in and done any REAL BIG searches beyond a couple days here and there? Mike spent months and months, basically ruining his personal life to try and document them?
And now the "government" is ready to call them extinct. And people who've never left their couches are on board with this. What effort has been put forth by ANYONE involved in the delisting process to try and document the birds? And why won't they even MENTION the work of Collins and Auburn?
The bird could easily be "out there". Or not. We don't know. I believe it is just based on Collins' work and Auburn's work and the fact that there is SO MUCH habitat that hasn't been properly surveyed...EVER. From when the Singer Tract was ruined till today. Just tiny treks into the woods by a very few people with Ivorybills on their mind. And an even fewer amount of people who've put the REAL time and effort into it and have come back with compelling evidence to launch bigger searches.
***EDIT*** I wanted to add another comment. It was mentioned above about the community giving credence to sightings based on the "WHO" it was seeing the bird, I think you mentioned Peterson as opposed to Stoddard. I would apply the same about those who decry anyone seeing the bird. Zickefoose and Sibley come to mind. They've decried many a sighting and as far as I know neither have gone on any speakable searches or have seen a bird themselves. They're artists. Why do they get to decide who's seen an Ivorybill or who hasn't?
Yeah lots of good points in here. I think people underestimate how much forest is in the south and how few people are looking. Access is tough.
The world is a big place. Lots of places to stay out of the way. Things turn up unexpectedly all the time. Eighty years of limited and occasional sightings are just not enough to presume extinction. Be patient.
I appreciate all the points you mentioned. I have studied Mike Collins' videos, and I am leaning towards the evidence for the Ivory Bill's existence. The one video clip I always go back to is when Mike captured the bird flying under him while he was up in a tree. There are a few moments in the video where you can see quite clearly a black body on top with very visible white trailing wing edges, and black wing tips. I submit that it's impossible for it to be a Pileated Woodpecker, and can only be an Ivory Billed Woodpecker! In my mind, Mike Collins has definitive evidence.
"We'll have a photo or video soon."
- Geoff Hill, Auburn, January 2007
I live in swamp land in northern Florida. A few years back I saw a woodpecker the size of an hawk. I don't remember what it looked like, it was probably a Pilated. I will keep my eyes out now that I know what to look for.
I'll have to come back to this, because it's pretty long 😅, but always cool to hear more about why it's still out there 👍
Yeah, it’s a beast of a video haha but there’s a lot of interesting info in there and I think you’ll enjoy it 👍
It's not still out there.
I really enjoyed the discussion. There are many off-shoot topics generated by it. I think it would be important to understand the implications of the “extinct” tag has further research.
For sure!
Great to see Dr. Haney calling out facts
We love to see it
Thank you Badgerland Birding for the great content!
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!
It would be the greatest thing ever for bird lovers if this spectacular species still existed deep in the woods of the southern states. Protect it at all costs.
Love this topic!
We'll be doing more videos about it soon! Including some shorter form content.
Believe it or not, I once got overexcited and mistook a Willet for an Eskimo Curlew.
If the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker was/is indeed a nomadic species, would it be possible for them to have migrated north? The reason I ask is because I know that the Ivory-Billed is known to eat beetle larvae in dead trees. Gatlinburg, TN had a huge forest fire back in 2016 that I'm sure most are aware of. I live fairly close to the area and you can still see areas with tons of dead trees where the fire was. I'm sure that area is riddled with beetle larvae each year and from reports of other birders in this area, it seems like the numbers of most woodpecker species has potentially increased since the unfortunate wildfire. I know historically this area is geographically and topographically incorrect for this bird but if it is indeed nomadic, would it have been possible for some to travel this far north if the forest conditions would be great for it?
It’s possible. Their historic range did encompass parts of Tennessee on the Mississippi River.
That would have led to them being discovered.
This was a great talk on a bird that has fascinated me since I was a kid in the 60's. I do believe they are still out there, contrary to what the officials think ( they aren't God so how do they know an elusive bird is truly extinct with so many recent sightings?)
What is puzzling & interesting, is the hostile & angry reactions from some people when the topic of the Ivory Bill is brought up - it's like a nerve gets triggered with them .... I think that Chris has some great observations on this that he discusses in the video.
Really appreciate the work you guys are doing!
That angry reaction was something we noticed as well and always thought to be odd. It's almost like insulting someones religion
I`ve seen black panthers in Louisiana. They claim they don`t exist or those of us who live here are too stupid to tell the difference between a black house cat and a giant 150lb animal from less than 20 feet away.
this guy is doing so many classic apologist tactics
awesome discussion on how we act/think/are biased.
Thanks!
I have the same nostalgia as I walk and hunt in the Pearl River region! I close my eyes and wish!
Ever see anything in the Pearl??
Not seen, but one time I heard Kent calls close to me. Very close! So close I actually thought my phone was replaying Tanner’s audio! I was sitting and got up to investigate and nothing more.
HOPE I do not loose this page again, Surprise to hear about talks about the Ivory Billed Woodpecker . I live in and born in WISCONSIN. Wildlife has been much of my world. I remember in the 80's writing on post cards Seeing the IVORY BILLED WOODPECKER on our Land in OXLEY, Arkansas. Our son's father, as usual about anything I would say I was so dumb, because I could not have seen the the IVORY , because they are extinct. But each time I would go with our son, I would see them. The female had a black Crest. their calls were like a Giant Nuthatch. and flew different. tips doing most of the motion, but the movement was quick when in flight through the trees, without much of the wing flapping.. OWEN GROMME, a friend of Robert Bateman, was the one who taught me a lot about wildlife. OWEN would catch me skipping school when I was about 10, and see me at the Milwaukee Museum. I did not know about Dyslexia and do not think he did either, but he knew it was hard for me to read, it still is. But he taught me how to see words better through red plastic, He taught me how to see upside down when drawing, which also helped to read better. NOT much is talked about OWEN GROMME., or his PAINTINGS that were far better than many bird artist. The Ivory billed was one of OWENS favorite, but many were. I painted a lot, through observation. It helped pay for my higher education , until someone had stolen all my art supplies and painting. With a young child to support. I had to drop out. Without an education in an art field, despite having some sketches, and on or two painting that were not stolen , the jobs as usually, went to a man. Even today if you look at the list of Wildlife Artists is usually the man. Low Paying jobs with NO future were what was and still today for men. And for good reasons most of the time. I still paint, but Wildlife Art in WISCONSIN even with the so called Huge ART gallery at the lake front. Even OWNEN GROMME was not allowed to show his work, because Wildlife art is considered nothing more that COPY work , or illustration work. Something I leaned from OWEN when the only place he could show his work was at the Milwaukee Museum that was on Wisconsin Ave. I Have SKETCHES some where in boxes that I did of the IVORY BILLED WOODPECKER. Where our land was , it was along a Fault line.in the OLD WOODS, that is something OWEN told the IVORY BILLED LIKED. Something I recalled Owen telling me. The Ivory billed woodpecker was one of Owens favorite birds. but many of them were. I paint again , now older. Last chance, but can NEVER afford to enter art shows due to the high cost of HIDDEN ENTRANCE fees., But I do have some where the sketches and notes I made about the Ivory BILLED, Right now renovation is being done, and boxes and other items are stuck in a Room or two , and not sure when.. In the meantime I continue to paint in memory of OWEN GROMME. the WILDLIFE SEEN IN WISCONSIN. Not sure my work is any better than many artist. Hardest part is so much NEGATIVE TALK I HEAR, about the direction USA and the Rest of the WOLD is going. COST of ART supplies far beyond my budget. therefor the value may not make a dent beyond. remarks that the paintings are done on Cheep flat board. However, i do use Rust-olium several layer and then sand, and my paint is mixed. medium. So, when I do the Ivory billed I will try to do it on better quality.
Oh my 300 yrs! This has made me want to look for this bird now! Does the Ivory woodpecker sound like the Pileated woodpecker?
cant wait to binge after class lol
Love it!
I saw them years ago in Boulder Colorado
Very interesting video and perhaps the most valid view on the topic. I've only just now found out about the ivory bill, so this makes a lot more sense now. Thank you!
If you've only just now found out about it, how can you tell how valid it is?
Can anyone recommend a good spotting scope that won’t break the bank or should I use binoculars for birding? Currently I’m using a pair of Bushnell 10x42 binoculars. Thanks y’all 🐤🐧🐦
Extinct birds get delisted from our field guides, so if we see one we can not identify them.
true! ivory bills are not on the Merlin app 😭
The Cajuns ate the last flock of birds during the economic downturn in the 80s.
Honestly wouldn’t be surprising 😂 Cajuns will eat anything
One of the best videos yet on the ivory billed woodpecker, will probably listen to it again. Maybe their intelligence level exceeds humans leaving me to believe there are still some out there🤞🏻
lets hope so .
Where do you guys bird in WI? I'm just northwest of Milwaukee, and I have fallen in love with birds the past couple years. I will go to state Parks and such, but I really love just walking around my neighborhood and recording all the birds I see. There's one that I'm struggling to ID lately, not sure if it's a young red-tailed, but it looks more accipiter to me so it's got me quite perplexed. Sorry, tangent. Just would love to get any tips y'all might have on birds in my area!
We go all over! Have any photos of the hawk? Here are some of our vids that take place in WI: ruclips.net/p/PLflNUezclylD2Vcy7qBtzO2JAUEMtDT8b
@@BadgerlandBirding I took a video of a RTH that was seemingly fighting with the other hawk, but I'm thinking that it was just another younger RTH. They had very similar vocalizations, and looked similar, just one was smaller. Then I saw my mystery bird and it had a lower, like hoarse squawk, and it definitely has more pointed wings than the ones I filmed. Unfortunately, I always just catch a glimpse above my house when I'm not ready.
I like going to the Mequon Nature Preserve and Pike Lake the most. There's a spot near MNP, just west, that had a bunch of great blue heron nests but you could only really see them from the road, but it was so cool! In the little ponds behind my house there's a great blue heron, and a sandhill crane family, I've actually been watching the family from when the couple was first here, then watched "junior" grow up, and it's so awesome.
Maybe a red shouldered hawk?
Some interesting points, but also conjecture and assumptions. Thought experiments with an optimistic bent. As always, there’s some chance it is not extinct, it’s just a question of probability.
Jerdon's babbler a vulnerable species but exist in a healthy population in the grasslands of northeast India.
Can these same things be applied to the imperial woodpecker of Mexico? I think they’re still out there as well.
@@RyansColoradoRailProductions there was an expedition to look for them but a lot of that area is cartel country so it’s hard to properly explore, and unfortunately a lot of that habitat has been developed over time, but it’s possible they’re still out there.
@@BadgerlandBirding I’d say so too. They’re was an area that’s a natural reserve that had reported sightings of several individuals in 1972 and again in 2005, so they might be thriving elsewhere nearby.
I heard and saw one in the summer of 2018, and it was an unforgettable experience. It was at a small woodlot next to a lake at Jonny Henderson Family Park next to Enterprise, Alabama.
Sure it wasn’t a Pileated?
Pileated.
@@BadgerlandBirding It was an ivory-billed woodpecker because I recognized its call from the audio and saw how remarkable it was. God allows miracles to happen every day.
@@nathanwebb4836 surely you noted more of its appearance aside from its remarkable-ness? That’s not exactly a strong identification factor.
@@coltrv I recognized its call from the audio, and I saw it with my own eyes. God can allow miracles to happen every day.
I want to believe it
Hard to say if it’s still alive or not!
Hey there! Has anyone ever asked those at Duck Dynasty if they have seen these magnificent birds?? I sure hope they’ve been asked; they tell you!!
****LET US ALL KNOW, PLEASE!😀
Apparently they live in LA, so if I ever run into them I’ll let you know, haha.
I was literally thinking the same thing! 😂
I believe 👽
Haha!
Too bad the also possibly extinct Imperial Woodpecker of Mexico isn’t getting this much attention.
The USFWS proposed declaring the IBWO extinct which sparked a lot of additional interest. If you know of someone with knowledge about Imperial Woodpeckers we’d be happy to interview them too.
@@BadgerlandBirding Sadly, I don’t. You guys could look for someone who is but it seems like the largest woodpecker that ever lived has truly gone extinct unlike its smaller cousin who still gets reported sightings to this day.
@@supermanprime9596 Yeah, hopefully not but I definitely don’t hear about any Imperial sightings 😔
@@BadgerlandBirding The last one I heard about was in 2007.
@@supermanprime9596 Oh cool! Can you send a link to that report?
Pity this wasn't around when I got my Grade 8 students to do a research project to determine if the ivory billed woodpecker was extinct or not. They had fun doing it and the divergence of opinion was quite large and discussion became quite heated!
I am one of the few people that have seen Ivory_ Billed Woodpeckers... we had them on our farm in easter ohio. Yes they migrate in the winter, they go south, they can stand a lot of cold weather before they migrate. They are very dangerous. There eye sight are much better than a human. And there hearing is also better than a human. They train there young on how to find the correct trees that have the food they eat. They have a big wide tale feathers that lock in place and they have a hard time unkinking the lock because of there weight. They have to lift up to unkink the tail feathers. Ivory-billed always go out in pairs, you many not see 2 of them but there are always in pairs but in different trees. It just luck to see one. They can hide behind the tree after they see you. They go about 3 miles from the main nest. They do not go back to the nest every day, they stay all night in trees away from the nest. They like large black bark pine trees. And they mark there tree they feed on.
I seen 3 Ivory billed wood peckers in 2017 in East Asheville NC. 28805. I thought it was strange at the time because they were larger than usual wood peckers. They were all about a foot tall. They had Red Black and white colors. But their size was what I thought was strange.
What you described is completely consistent with a very common woodpecker that is very often mistaken for an ivorybill: the pileated woodpecker. It is almost certain that the birds you saw were pileated woodpeckers, not ivorybills. For one thing, the ivorybill is probably extinct. For another, unless you were in an area of old-growth forest, you most definitely didn't see ivorybills, you saw pileateds. Ivorybills have never lived outside of old-growth forest regions, and indeed that's why they went extinct, because their native habitat was destroyed by the forestry industry.
@@abbadabbba232 Oh thanks for that verification. I'm glad you had the extraordinary capability to see through my eyes, and identify the species.
@@dannunakifuque7795 Not sure why you decided to get snarky friend. I'm just informing you of facts. Apparently that offends you. It's just extremely unlikely you saw an ivorybill and very likely you saw a pileated. That is just a statistical fact. You didn't identify any facts in your original post that would indicate it was likely an ivorybill. You stated that the birds you saw were "about a foot tall" and "had red black and white colors." Well, all three of those things are true of pileated woodpeckers.
And where did you see these birds? Again, unless you were in some dense old-growth forest area (and there isn't much of that left in the U.S.), there's no way the birds could have been ivorybills. And you don't end up in a dense old-growth forest area unless you make it a point to take an excursion into such an area.
@@abbadabbba232 I'm not offended friend. You clearly have the answers.
🙄
Yeah I think there out there just matter of time till someone gets a good picture though
I hit dislike by accident :( but I changed it to like. Damn technology.
Haha no worries!
And yet you jump to an assumption the woodpecker wasn’t wary of humans, when they, as the Pileated cousins do, hide opposite from your viewing much of the time if they see you
The last time they found it people shot it to stuff them.
Lol this guy is great - if I don't see my uncle for 5 years I don't assume he's dead 🤣. Basically humans shouldn't play God when it comes to extinction...
Told you you would enjoy it 😂
What if you and every one in your family looks intently for your uncle for 30+ years and can’t come up with any hard evidence he is alive?
@@m.brodie8872 but you need hard evidence that he's dead... thats the point
@@m.brodie8872 I think by hard evidence, you mean any point blank photos or videos. There’s a difference between clear photo and video vs. enough evidence that the birds might persist. Just 12 years ago USFWS had a recovery plan for the IBWO. So 30+ years of no hard evidence? Not so much. www.fws.gov/ivorybill/
@@snowyowl5556 you can’t prove something doesn’t exist, as all scientists understand. There’s no proof Bigfoot isn’t alive either. The burden of proof falls on those who believe it still in existence.
Wow, interesting, ornithology museums that kill and collect rare bird specimens? Does that make any sense? The bird is very rare and might be close to being extinct so we'll go kill some for our museum collection? How is that supposed to work out for the birds?
That was how ornithology was done back in the day, not so much nowadays
It's funny how closely this matches with the 'Bigfoot' phenomenon. Only we do know that the woodpecker actually exists - or existed, whereas Bigfoot? I take an educated guess that no Bigfoot ever existed.
Maybe the Bigfoots care for the remaining Ivory-billed Woodpeckers 🤔 But yes the two subjects do feel similar in the way people talk about them.
@@BadgerlandBirding Yes! Bigfoots are known to do that. (Nice Finding Bigfoot reference; ha!)
@@aknightthatsaysnee5259 I’ve seen them feeding the woodpeckers by hand many times but I’ve never had my camera with me 😞 😆
@@BadgerlandBirding Lol! I know what you mean. My photos always come out blurry. 😧
There's plenty of evidence that Bigfoot exists, just like giants. The difference is academia doesn't have a predisposition to politically deny evidence of wood peckers.
There are many people out there, including some academics, who love to push the "doom and gloom" narrative on the public, their students, etc. They behave more like climate change activists than serious researchers (or at least those genuinely interested in the truth of the subject). They are doing more harm than good.
This video is a one sided argument on the optimistic side. But sure I guess everyone else is “doom and gloom”
Scientific opinions on climate change are “doom and gloom” too, with a much higher degree of confidence (a consensus). Just because that’s a bummer doesn’t make it not true.
Maybe there are some hybrids out there?
Because Pileated Woodpeckers and IBWO belong to different genus’, hybridization would be unlikely. I’m not sure about any type of hybridization between IBWO and Imperial Woodpeckers, or if they would even overlap in range at all.
No!
Mammoths have been spotted in both Alaska and Russia.
I think there is far too much reporting to write the species off. Watch this space and possibly put more institutional effort into the search. I work for one of the named conservation organizations. I will query this to determine what the institutional view is and what investigation is ongoing. Fascinating, personally I believe and I'm not in the U.S. so has little listing drive.
A lot of talk, which everyone knows, is cheap. We are not talking about a tiny hummingbird, but a very large bird.Very large. If they are still reproducing there has to be at least two birds. Do they ever die, if so, no one ever finds the bodies. People want the fame and bragging rights with finding the bird. There's a lot of egotists looking for this bird and they believe they see it but are they really?!
Nothing like the cartoon… false analogy
for crying out loud people give it up.. it's extinct!🤣
Go away!
@@tonysargent3852 i was gonna say i saw a Thylacine the other day.... but ok, i go away🙄
Where are the U.S. fish and Game people???
8000 employees. We pay them to administer conservation of habitat. Where is their boots on the ground activities trying to document the whereabouts of this elusive bird???
I read the comments below of a man with only 2-3 days and no money trying his best to find the bird.
U.S. Fish and Game has a big budget and lotsa time and a sworn oath to preserve and protect all species that belong to all Americans !!!
Not happy !!!
After the Cornell reports, government organizations/employees spent a significant amount of time and money doing searches which led to little to no concrete evidence, which is part of the reason they do not currently fund much, if any searches.
8000 people, active in the third or fourth largest country of the world, largely out of any realistic range of the ivory bill and having to cover ALL species...