I'm 20. Getting baptized and confirmed Catholic this Easter! I never would have converted if I hadn't met traditional Catholics. Progressive messages I'd heard from mainstream Catholics made the Church seem weak
@jjdwf That was the Message progressives within the church were giving off, and truthfully that’s exactly what they want to project. The problem lies within the progressives of the church and they are one main reason why others perceive us as weak.
@@Totallydepravedsinner thank you! I've grown a lot since i posted that original comment, and I still feel as though joining the Church was the best decision I've ever made. The hardest part is getting my Baptist family to understand, but they're mostly just glad I still am some form of Christian. I'm getting married in January to a great Catholic man (also a convert). We go to the Novus Ordo about half the time, and half TLM. God bless you as well!
19, engaged, trad. Looking to have as many kids as God sends us when we get married next year. We are aware that it's getting harder and harder to be a true, devout Catholic in todays day and age but we are prepared to never compromise even if it leads to persecution. I know our culture is dying and going dark but I'll be a bright light no matter how small. Be proud to be Catholic. Stay Catholic. God is with us and He will have the last laugh. Stay faithful to Him no matter what.
Hi, Berwyn. Thanks for your comment. You express some beautiful dispositions, as is to be expected in your situation. While I don't want to take anything away from what you're saying, I'm going to try to complement your thoughts with some further considerations, which will be helpful and useful and encouraging to you only after the glow has come off. By His mercy God gives the delight of youthful love and anticipation to induce us to choose to follow the path of life. As you travel this path, you will come to find that it is indeed thorny and rocky. You will regret your decision and think that life would have been better had you chosen otherwise, and could yet be if you then were to choose otherwise. There are two things to draw from that. In the first place, now, while it's easy and delightful, build habits which are virtuous, as this will stand you in good stead. In the second place, when those days come, tough it out. During the dark days you will think that there is nothing beyond, but by toughing it out you will discover that you are both, and all, much happier for having stuck it through.
Hi guys!!! I’m a 75 yr old Catholic Priest of 40 yrs! I love to listen to you younger men talk about the faith. Especially the Traditional Catholic Faith. Yes, younger people do go for the traditional faith!!! Reverence, Respect, Love, and Holliness! God bless you...Fr.James
That means you likely experienced the TLM as a young boy and teen! I hope you get to experience it again! Never to late! Lex Orandi Lex Credendi! 62 yo male in McAllen TX!
@@TradCath Hello my brother, I grew up with the Latin Mass fortunately and know it very well! It truly is a beautiful way to Pray the Mass for a Priest like myself and for you also! I’m in Ohio and so far all is well! I really don’t care for the changes Vatican ll made and Francis has certainly made some serious mistakes he’ll have to answer for! Thanks for your comment and God bless you always!!! Meet you in the afterlife one day…..+Fr.James
As a priest of 40 years. I was wondering about your thoughts on fssp and sspx. I want a more traditional form of our faith and more reverence for the eucarist but do you believe the fssp or sspx are schismatics and would i be condemning my soul my attending.
@@martinez1991don Right now, I do not feel the they are NOT schismatics! If they would become under Jorge Bergoglio, I wouldn’t blame them! All Jorge has been doing is driving all Catholics apart! The one important factor that Jorge lacks is just what Jesus Himself taught….LOVE, the most important thing and full filament of the entire Law!!! If I wasn’t semi-retired, I might look into these myself! I maintain Traditionalism in my Heart, privately and with groups of people! God bless you…+Fr.James. Hint, the cross before Fr. Stands for Bishop!
I'm 22 and getting married in a month, and I've been becoming more serious about Catholicism. I think a lot of what drove me away in my teens and college years was Catholics who were unprincipled and touchy feely. It made Catholicism seem like every other faith and hid the robust theology & philosophy that helped me come back to the church.
I love Brian Holdsworth. It was early on in my investigation of Catholicism that I came across his video about why he converted. It's part of what led me to be in the Church today. God bless
30 yo with 5 kids here. Had 0 clue there was such a thing as any other type of liturgy in the Church until I was an adult. I hope you appreciate how important these types of resources are to people like me. Knowing that there's similar sentiments from likeminded people here gives me hope.
Love the intro conversation. As a priest, I can relate to your sentiments of fear, discernment, using your platforms, and the talk about sometimes being criticized.
My father told me that when he was in Italy during World War 2, he began attending Sunday Mass at local churches. He spoke no Italian but his Missal from home and the Mass in Latin let him feel right at home. Finding the church at the right time was a bigger problem for him than participating at Mass. All the dialog in the Mass was in Latin and it was in his book. The readings were in Italian; his Missal had them in Latin and English. The Homily, delivered in Italian, was the only part he didn't understand but as he had read the Gospel reading, he was free to contemplate it and draw lessons from it. Until the early 1960s, you could attend Mass anywhere in the world and the Missal you brought from home - wherever that might have been - would stand you in good stead. Dad's wartime experience would have been an accurate model of the experience. In late 1963, my family made our second move in 6 months. Our new Parish priest was still saying the Tridentine Mass in Latin, as the canons required. After Vatican 2 concluded, he began saying that same Mass mostly in English. We moved again in mid 1965, our third move in just over 2 years. Our new parish was still celebrating Mass in Latin. In mid 1966, the three priests began celebrating Mass mostly in English. The next year, everything I heard was English. As far as I can tell, they just changed which side of the Missal page they read, the English rather than the Latin. Everything was the same but the language. The church was still full at every Mass on Sunday. The changes continued. Some of the nuns teaching in the school were excited by the liturgical changes and some openly predicted women being ordained into the priesthood. Some of them fervently embraced every change and acted like cheerleaders. I had moved on from the nuns' sphere of influence before the new table style altar was installed and the Novus Ordo Mass was instituted. Everything changed in appearance. A Sunday evening Mass was added. Then, they added a Saturday evening Mass. The church was still nearly full at every Mass on Sunday. The parish moved into a new church about 1990. It was very plain and utilitarian. There was no high altar. In its place, on a slightly raised platform are three chairs for the priest and servers. Yes, they are actually higher than the altar as though more important than the altar and what takes place upon it. My oldest sister once described it as "definitely Christian but not necessarily Catholic." Things kept changing in mostly small ways though, at some point, the prayers of the Canon of the Mass (Offertory through Communion - which I could practically recite from memory in English) were radically changed. Four different Eucharistic Prayers are available today, each with a set of invocations and congregation responses from which to choose on the fly. Even exclusively in English, the current Mass is far more confusing to me than the Latin Mass ever was. Attendance noticeably declined as all these things changed. Small things kept changing and attendance kept declining. Devotions like Eucharistic Adoration, Stations Of The Cross, public recitation of the Rosary and processions on major feast days are all gone or much reduced. So are the parishioners, particularly the young families. Our schools are mostly gone, too, as the young families have fewer children. The parish that had 3 priests 50 years ago now has one priest and a deacon. The parish now has a Saturday Mass, only 2 on Sunday morning (there were 4 and possibly 5 before noon in 1966) and another on Sunday evening. The last time I attended Mass there, every person at Mass that Sunday could lie down in the pews without crowding anyone. The local cathedral that my father avoided in the 1960s because it was always too crowded has way more capacity than it needs even with the COVID-19 "mitigations." I would like to go back to the Tridentine Mass in Latin but the vernacular, English here, would also be preferable to the current Novus Ordo Mass. I want the Lord's Prayer WITHOUT the non-scriptural Protestant addition. I want the priest to bless us with the Peace of Christ rather than having all of us wave at each other during Mass. I want altar boys back; the novelty of our current altar girls wore thin a long time ago. I want the "Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers" to be truly "extraordinary." They are NOT "extraordinary" if they are at EVERY Mass, as is currently the case; I would really like them to go away altogether. Most of all, I want the Communion Rail back and I want the priest to give me the Holy Eucharist on my tongue as I kneel to receive the Blessed Sacrament. Our churches are nearly empty. Vocation rates have fallen off a cliff. The "inclusive" and "ecumenical" innovations have failed. Go back to what worked. Let us BE CATHOLIC again.
Lol I have obligations to a novus ordo parish, and while I was there the pastor told the congregation (less than 20 people sitting and a few additional waiting in their cars) that they were doing all these hand gestures and sign language and virtual stuff so the parish could be more vibrant and have more active youth feel to it and make everyone feel younger. I looked around and saw maybe 5 people under the age of 20. Two under the age of 30. Everyone else was old. The young people were all there with their grandparents man. Later that day I went to my not-so-local TLM and it was PACKED with young people. I see people under the age of 30 with 5 kids, new young families who were just married and have a brand new little one, their playground is packed with kids and young families. Even before the lockdown the novus ordo parish was mostly elderly folk, now it’s even more exasperated. All the young people moved to the Latin mass. For good reason too. I even know a family that converted from Protestantism directly to the Latin mass parish. They’ve never had to deal with the insanity that I’ve seen at NO parishes over the years.
I'm not exactly young, but have a young family and I consider myself traditional. It was my research into the Tridentine Mass that transformed me. Growing up in the New Mass, I've had to change the words and postures I've used several times throughout my life. Really, I'm just tired of the inconsistency and lack of reverence. I'm tired of the boomer mentality of "come as you are" and "the Church of nice." I just want something stable and eternally renewable for my family and I. This I've found within the Extraordinary Form and the Eastern Catholic Tradition.
A.) 1.) St. Sixtus 1 (circa 115): "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord." 2.) St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379): "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution." St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault. 3.) The Council of Saragossa (380): Excommunicated anyone who dared continue *receiving Holy Communion by hand.* 4.) This was *confirmed* by the Synod of Toledo. 5.) Saint Leo the Great read the sixth chapter of Saint John's Gospel as referring to the Eucharist (as all the Church Fathers did). In a preserved sermon on John 6 (Sermon 9), Saint Leo says: "Hoc enim ore sumitur quod fide creditur" (Serm. 91.3). This is translated strictly as: “This indeed is received by means of the mouth which we believe by means of faith. "Ore" is here in the ablative and in the context it denotes instrumentation. So then, the *mouth* is the means by which the Holy Eucharist is received. 6.) The Synod of Rouen (650): Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against *sacrilege.* The Council of Rouen (650): “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywoman but *only in their mouths.”* 7.) The 6th Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681): Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors *with excommunication.* 8.) St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274): "Out of reverence towards this Sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], *nothing touches it,* but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this Sacrament." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8.) 9.) The Council of Trent (1545-1565): "The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an *Apostolic Tradition".*
B.) Protestant schismatic modernists are like Luther and deny adherence to all popes in concert with councils past as given in A, which say no to unconsecrated hands touching sacred vessels, say no to hands receving communuion except in times of persecution, etc. All of these cannot be expressed any differently. Truth is truth except for modernist relativists. Sin is sin, per Sacred Scripture, Tradition, etc. Ecumenical Counsels, the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, or the solemn teachings of supreme pontiffs are binding to the faithful: "But when either the Roman Pontiff or the Body of Bishops together with him defines a judgment, they pronounce it in accordance with Revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with, that is, the Revelation which as written or orally handed down is transmitted in its entirety through the legitimate succession of bishops and especially in care of the Roman Pontiff himself, and which under the guiding light of the Spirit of truth is religiously preserved and faithfully expounded in the Church.” All of 1-9 are in agreement. The popes in concert with the councils are in agreement, and popes before and after each council are in agreement and Trent is the capstone that by citing "Apostolic Tradition" anchors them in the New Testament making it irreversible forever.
C.) Finally, the past popes and councils worked together in agreement on 1-9 I listed above, and popes before and after them agreed with them in accordance with the quoted section in B. Once they declared certain actions involved with the Eucharist service to be sin, sacrilege, mortal sin, excommunicable offenses, and so on, it was sin. Period. Something can't be sin one year and not sin the next. The Council of Trent cited Apostolic Tradition as a capstone against heretics like Luther, thus for people now to make the things said in 1-9 to not be sin, mortal sin, etc, (those declared in 1-9 to be sin, mortal sin, etc, to do) would be akin to saying that what St. Peter and St. Paul said were sin are no longer sin. Thus for people now to say what 1-9 declared to be sins aren't sins would be like St. Peter and Paul writing that something was sin and people now saying it isn't and challenging them. Truth isn't relativistic... And people quoting something and twisting it to support just one pope is heretical.
@@raymack8767 Thank you for the informative reply and references! I'll have to look further into these things! It's frustrating, for me, to think that such teachings can receive an "indult." I truly do believe, and I recently heard a good priest say during his homily, that 'the times we're living in, this pandemic and all the churches closing down related to it, is all part of God's plan. He is sifting the chaff from the grain.' God is bringing judgment upon us for our lack of Faith in the True Presence in the Eucharist, our poor church attendance, bad catechesis and our insufficient liturgies (particularly in the Roman Rite, if you happen to notice the only places that remained open and are actually gaining parishioners are traditional ones who preserve the TLM or Eastern Liturgies)! This is all His plan. If we don't turn things around. It will get worse...
I had the exact same experience Brian had at the FSSP parish he is talking about with the SSPX Chapel I now attend. I had heard a million terrible and uncharitable things about the people there, that they where snobbish and schismatic. Instead I found many beautiful and loving families that took us, who knew next to nothing and accepted us. The priests that I've met are all wonderful as well.
Wouldn’t it be cool if there was a group chat of Catholic teenagers!! If you want to be in a group chat I can make one on Instagram! My Instagram is abbytay03!!!
Lover of the TLM here. Just some thoughts and opinions: It was the Divine Liturgy sung in English (with some Greek and Arabic) that made me first appreciate the value of the Traditional Latin Mass. Is the Novus Ordo valid? Yes. Is it licit? Yes. Is it prudent? No. If you want that middle road of mutual enrichment, it should be East enriching West, not Simon and Garfunkel meets West. Let the Ordinary Form be the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. This was allowed by 20th century pre-V2 popes for some Eastern European nations. It’s also not good to lump those who think the Novus Ordo was a mistake in with Sedevacantists. That’s the quickest way to have Glad-Trads turn into Rad-Trads. People’s identity can be wrapped up in the nuance of thought, so great care and prudence must be taken when addressing groups of people and what “they believe.”
Denver has many great parishes. Glad Bryan was able to experience it. Many people from Wyoming drive down every Sunday to attend Masses in various Denver parishes. Please pray for Archbishop Aquila!
I truly love the SSPX church I attend in Houston Tx (actually Dickinson) I love the lace, the overabundant incense smoke, the lighted candle poles held by the altar boys, the abundance of altar BOYS, the prayers of the mass, the chant💖🙏
@@marycasper5510 thank you! I have a daily TLM here in Pharr TX by a priest of the Oratory of St Philip Neri However he does so at the whim of the bishop of Brownsville I would have to consider all my options if that permission were to be withdrawn
@@TradCath awwwe sorry for you. We have 6 residence priest and one brother, a school, so many activities, too many, every night if you want, a daily 6 p rosary in the church with the priest, they say their prayers of the office every three hours in the church, two masses per day except Monday (1), lots of special things, devotion to Holy Face every 2nd Sunday, rosary to our Lady of Perpetual Help every Tuesday, your home enthroned to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, virtually ALL the beautiful tradition of the past, a step back in time, you would love it
The cover picture for this clip is prophetic I think - let me explain. It showed the Sacred Heart. The Sacred Heart is at the core of the entire Catholic Counter-Revolution, that we often call "the traditional movement". Viva Cristo Rey
52:15 and 59:55 very important! Before the pandemic, I often attended a chanted Novus Ordo mass with a monastic community - incense, deeply contemplative and all the rest. To me, it defies this tendency towards polarization. Full pews. I’ve had experiences in both Novus Ordo and Tridentine masses that have felt either spiritually elevating or dull/aversive. Small is the gate and narrow the way.
N.O made the Mass too protestant, and lacked reverence and respect... the Trad Mass is all that is missing in the NO Mass.. Truly love it.. Love from Australia.
Wonderful interview/exchange. I had no idea Matt Fradd and Brian Holdsworth knew each other! I’ve been watching them both for quite some time. This made my day. God bless you guys!
Yeah ...Modernism has definitely contributed to the division in the Church amongst Catholics... Love how St. Pius X clearly and openly spoke out against Modernism and ‘no’ he didn’t have a soft and gentle tone. Our shepherds have gone too soft and liberal. And there’s always a price to pay......Tradition must be restored..
I would really like it if you two could expand upon “dealing with” the abuses in an ordinary form-only local parish. What can be done, if anything, when you live in a place with one or two parishes, both Novus Ordo, and priests (and “music ministers”) who discourage a more traditional liturgy? This is a situation I think many, many traditionally minded Catholics find ourselves in right now.
Amen to this! I would have to drive past three Catholic churches with novus ordo and 1970s folk song style masses to be able to go to a more traditional or even just more reverent mass. Sometimes I feel like I should be part of the change at these other parishes, to one of which I belong. How?!
Do not limit yourself to where you are. It may be difficult because you are young, but if you value the Traditional faith. Find a Church that will provide it for you. Maybe you have to wait and move one day, but for now study and understand what Christ is moving you to do.
@@robiszabo903 XD I never expected the "read Dostoyevsky" to be a part of that, but after having finished both Crime & Punishment and Notes From The Underground in the last two weeks, it makes sense now. That said, I don't think Bach and Dostoyevsky are necessary, though I agree both are good. If you want traditional, try Phoenix From The Ashes by Henry Sire. It's a long, though very interesting history of past heresies the church has faced and a very well-researched analysis on Vatican II. As for people, that depends. Look up SSPX and the Militia Immaculate, those might help you.
Recently gone trad from DC, it's rough going when many in the church don't understand why you would go traditional, but it is definitely worth it. Good to see you finally have Mr. Holdsworth on! God bless!
@@lindaakguest4ever50 I have but haven't been able to get up early enough. My family doesn't own a car you see which makes it harder to get there. That said, I heard they have a young adults group, so I'm going tomorrow to see if I can join. Fingers crossed.
Oh, if you are in it, do you know if the minimum age requirement is 18 or 21? It will only make a difference for a few weeks, but I'd like to go sooner if possible.
I attended the Latin Mass as a child and young teen. At that time, we had so many people attending Mass that our parish had 7 Masses on Sunday morning, beginning at 6 a.m. and ending with the noon Mass. The Masses couldnt have been 45 minutes long, as the parking lots had to be emptied after each Mass in order to accommodate the cars for the following Mass. I also remember 4 or 5 priests coming onto the altar prior to Communion to assist in giving the Holy Eucharist at the Communion rail. Upon the reopening of churches during the pandemic last June, I decided to attend Mass at a parish that offered the TLM. I was blown away and literally moved to tears, and of course, I later joined the parish! The Mass is almost 90 minutes long. There is confession before Mass, as well as recitation e of the rosary Angelus.
Matt, your podcast helps me turn my leisure time into learn more about Catholicism time. This has deepened my understanding of the faith so much, and challenged me to turn that understanding into actually leading a more holy life. I'm sure you feel pressure to always get better, faster, stronger with your platform, but just being able to sit down and watch two honest people talk openly about their faith is where that real good stuff comes from. Thank you for that. All that to say, if you want to burn it all down and start a bookstore, I absolutely get it. But I've also gotten a lot out of non-bookstore Matt.
I've grown with the new mass, but I increasingly love TLM. Even attending it somewhat sporadically the graces and effects on my life were measurable. The issue with latin NOM is the prayers aren't as good as in the TLM. Take for example such simple thing as the confiteor. In NOM invocations of Mary, saints are taken away making it inoffensive to protestants. Takes away notion of the Church in Heaven. If you think how to fix NOM, if you are honest about it you are going to end pretty much with TLM in sense like it is done in modern traditional parishes. I don't think there is anything wrong with idea of future, where the Second Vatican Council is scrapped completely. I think it's easier to make true reform from scratch than to try salvage this monstrosity with insane amount of documents. Sacrosanctum Concilium while it seems like nice thing, it has holes in it, which were naturally used to come up with liturgy as it's common nowadays.
I agree with Brian. We are in our 50s and switched to TLM during the pandemic. We found the local mass online & were able to learn & understand the mass when churches were closed to visitors. It is much easier to hear the priest online than in person which was helpful when being 1st exposed to the mass. When things opened up in the summer we tried our NO for a few weeks in person but we missed the TLM. So we started going in person to TLM and really prefer it now. We live a few blocks from the NO parish but driving by we also noticed the NO seems to be less attended (we have been told so as well). Conversely TLM is quite crowed even at holy days during the week. On Tuesday we attended a Tuesday candle mass of 105 minutes which was sung and quite crowded which surprised me. Time goes quite quickly at mass. (at about 41 min in video)
I’ve never been to TLM and I’m going to go for the first time next week. I’ve enjoyed the “regular” mass for as long as I can remember. I would consider myself a strong practicing Catholic. I’m so intrigued by the division. I didn’t even know I was looked down on for not being “traditional” until my daughter went to college...a Catholic college where she found out otherwise. Lol anyhow looking forward to TLM maybe I’ll get hooked! Thank you I really enjoyed this video. God bless you both
so many trads I’ve encountered view novus ordo worshippers as inferior Catholics or 2nd class citizens. I personally don’t experience any more spiritual depth when attending TLM. I’m orthodox in my theological viewpoints but not a liturgical “traditionalist” Their pride and arrogance made me distance myself from the traditionalist movement.
Thank you for talking about your RUclips Creator life with all the discernment, struggles, and successes. It’s difficult to find Catholic leaders honestly discussing what this ministry looks like.
I would enjoy speaking with Matt. Bro is always joyous and super chill. God bless bro. Continue doing the work you are doing, I will be praying for you and your mission.
I grew up in the novus ordo and then recently went to some Latin masses. It was very simple for me. I just put the two masses side by side and found one was more beautiful and reverent than the other one. That seemed more fitting and attractive to me. So I made the switch. No looking back. For the first time in my life I now look forward to attending mass. Before I attended because of an obligation. Now I enjoy it.
Great video, I enjoyed it very much! I have been coming to Catholicism and have chosen a parish that does a Tridentine Mass, I have enjoyed it. Stay safe and God bless
I think the answer is very simple. Which is, for those that take their faith seriously, understanding and learning Tradition is the ultimate form of the faith. Not too mention many young people are lost and confused by our society. Especially western ones. I think the Traditional mass and way of living has brought about a sense of clarity and foundation many young people have yearned for yet never knew until we found the TLM. I encourage everyone to go to the TLM, specifically a Sung or High mass as those masses are most fulfilling for first timers.
I deleted all of my social media accounts a few months ago, and I feel LIBERATED. Seems dramatic but I truly recommend it to anyone else struggling to managing time/stress/negativity associated with it. I now have more time with my family, to get housework done, work on my hobbies, etc. It is worth it.
Smashing it out of the park. I could listen to this all day. Matt, you're awesome. You have something nobody else on RUclips has. Authenticity coupled with truly practical, theological insight. Brian has something else unique I can't quite put my finger on. Maybe the way he lays out his ideas in a methodical but concise and easy to understand manner. I'd love to see these two continue to collaborate more into the future!
I'm Catholic and that was what I thought was a traditional lifestyle? But after a few years listening to a variety of Catholic presenters I realised that their are several types of Catholics. I still think I'm traditional because I seek God's divine Will and love Catholic traditions even thou as a 80's child we have been deprived of many of the traditional Catholic pre Vatican 2 liturgical ways and prayers. Bless you all for sharing your knowledge and love for our Mother church and Christ's ways.
I have seen a ton of anti-traditional comments from Novus Ordo people toward traditionalists. Haven't experienced the reverse. The lady in the little catholic store is FSSP and has always been open and engaging with me as Novus Ordo. So all this Novus Ordo they are so mean to me has not been my life experience.
I've been here for half the video and haven't heard about the topic yet. Wish the topic could be covered at least beginning in the first 10 minutes. Be blessed!
Yes, this conversation was rather lightweight. The council documents also have their problems, see Ferrara's treatment here: salbert.tripod.com/SClel.htm The Ottaviani Intervention critiques the original most authentic celebration of the Novus Ordo.
Hit the nail on the head with 1:05:29 - sing the Mass! And the way the old liturgies weave the music and action together. The Novus Ordo, even when done according to the rubrics, has these pauses while we sing the Sanctus or the Agnus Dei, and nothing else can happen until that music is finished instead of the old layered parallel processing sort of thing.
"A theology which denies the historicity of nearly everything in the Gospels to which Christian life and affections and thought have been fastened for nearly two millennia - which either denies the miraculous altogether or, more strangely, after swallowing the camel of the Resurrection strains at such gnats as the feeding of the multitudes - if offered to the uneducated man can produce only one or other of two effects. It will make him a Roman Catholic or an atheist. " - CS Lewis, Fern Seeds and Elephants
I agree with what Matt was saying about not going back to full tradition. When I started coming back to mass, my parish did NO in a very reverent way, and it was amazing. I had to move after 3 months, and the new parish isn't as reverent. The biggest difference was the age of the priest. Younger priests did the more reverent mass.
Do you think it would be possible an interview, or debate, with Casey OFM from Breaking the Habit? I think it would be good for both. I'm european catholic. I think this trend to tradition as i felt is stronger in english speaking countries. Maybe because catholics are rarer in those countries. But recently, as trough experience i became aware of the spirit of Catholicism, i think the essence is more important than form (liturgy) although of course the liturgy for example influences the essence and spirit. i think there is a danger that traditionalists put liturgy before faith and virtuous and with liberals perhaps the danger it's to completely relativize every thing about the church and faith and works. i think it would be interesting as Casey it's not certainly a traditionalist to be interviewed.
@@jefffinkbonner9551 i don't think like that. i do think that confronting what we do not like is not only good but necessary. If what you see is wrong than you shoud be able to reason against it and if it´s right you shoudn't be able to reason against it. it helps being assertive and not held by vanity. no one has the monopoly of information, let alone of reason. there must be something in it of truth and i think there are. we just lost the golden point
Respectfully, I disagree with the comments above. For anyone who sees this thread: Fr. Casey is certainly not a 'modernist', but you'd actually have to watch his content to know that (which you should- instead of trusting strangers in the comment section- including me) If he's a modernist than Matt Fradd is an extremist traditionalist 🤭 (which obviously Matt is not). Please don't make such accusations without at least elaborating as to how you came to such a conclusion. It is harmful and not very helpful imo
I agree, it could lead to a great conversation. Also, could we catholics stop attacking each other for approaching the issues in a different way? Fr. Casey's heart is known by the Lord, if you know anything he has done is wrong, tell him kindly, not by mockery or insults. "Love your enemies", told us Jesus, and yet we keep on hating even inside the Church. Yes, we need to defend the faith and be ready to fight against the Evil and his works, but as the Lord commands.
Hey Matt and Brian. I like both of your evangelism initiatives. I also think there is room in the Church for the Latin Mass in the now more rare extraordinary form, as a connection to Church history and as a manifestation of beauty. On this one, I would say people are living in a pretty small bubble if they really think there is a serious growth in a youth movement for traditionalism. It's plainly not the case, and the average World Youth Day with all its diocesan events and youth groups globally are evidence to the contrary, right? The Vatican II Church is here to stay and is in fact the norm, and as Francis has said ""You can be with the church and therefore follow the council, or you can not follow the council or interpret it in your own way, as you want, and you are not with the church". It's important to be of one mind with the Holy Father, as I know you both are.
Cradle Catholic here... I'm thinking about reverting and I have a burning question. If one should attend the Mass when it's all in Latin, not understanding a word of Latin, how can you get anything out of it? Isn't it better to have Mass in your native tongue where you can actually understand? To accept the gospel message you have to be able to understand it first.
Brian mentioned how Pius X changed the Divine Office, as a way to demonstrate that some change in the liturgy is okay, and that change really was needed. If you talk to trads who are really interested in these things though, you’ll find to a man that it is recognized that Pius X’s rearranging the psalter (whose arrangement was actually older than the traditional mass by a few centuries) was uncalled for, and a regrettable reform. The ability of the pontiff to change the liturgy by fiat is a very concerning reflection of ultramontanism. Prior to this, minor changes were either authorized by ecumenical councils (like Trent), or were implemented in the city of Rome by the pope, but not imposed on the rest of the world. So, just as there is enthusiasm among trads to restore the pre-55 holy week, on principle, I predict there being more and more enthusiasm to roll back even Pius X’s reforms, since those were the beginning of the period of liturgical experimentation. It’s not correct to think of the 1911 reforms as separate from the 1955, 1962, and 1969 reforms. All of these flowed from a certain mindset of the early 20th century. For those interested, Pius X rearranged the psalter for two reasons: to make the recitation shorter (Prime, Terce, Sext, None, and Compline were from their inception the same every day, but Pius X shortened Matins by transferring a lot of the Matins psalms to these hours), and to make it so that this psalter was used more frequently, since during time after Pentecost and time after Epiphany, there were so many feasts per week, and feast days used special sets of psalms. The solution ought to have been to reduce the rank of most of the feasts, or even to remove many of them. Change the calendar so it doesn’t get in the way of the Roman rite. Instead, Pius X changed the Roman rite so as not to have to mess with the calendar.
Byzantine Catholicism is its own separate Rite and as such may have its own devotions and way of doing things. As far as I know, the Latin Rite is the only Rite within the Church with 2 contrasting forms of Mass and 2 liturgical calendars.
I discovered Brian when I was watching videos about "The Problem with Modern Art".
3 года назад+1
I am Mexican, where 80% of the population is Roman Catholic and the veneration of the Virgin of Guadalupe generates more than 20 million visits a year, to her temple. But since I met Ken Ham, he has made me lean towards Catholic fundamentalism and I notice that a lot of the veneration of Jesus and the Virgin are half pagan, why dancers of the about 80 different ethnic groups worship Jesus and the Virgin with a mixture of pre-Hispanic rituals, like the celebration of the day of the dead ... what do you think?
Regarding what you say at around the 53-54 minute mark: I think the Novus Ordo should be scrapped completely - as there is no part of it which is an improvement on the traditional form, and it is in every way inferior textually and in practice. And for full disclosure, I attended the Novus Ordo exclusively from birth until I was about 20, then occasionally TLM. I then switched fully to TLM in the Easter of 2013, tangentially because of Francis, but directly because his election emboldened the priest in my parish and other priests in the diocese to roll back whatever miniscule progress had been made towards celebrating a more traditional Novus Ordo liturgy. I saw that my efforts were pointless and bad for my soul so I switched and found peace. As a result, I can no longer counsel others to continue efforts to reform the Novus Ordo if I know they have access to the TLM. It only leads to heartbreak.
@@hei7586 You can go to the Ordinariate instead. It's basically what the Novus Ordo should be, if someone really wants the vernacular despite Saint John XXIII's Apostolic Constitution on Latin.
@@spraffman Obviously most people here want the ordinary mass. Only some people attend the one latin mass you can go to, all the rest stick to their many 'normal' parish churches, I can gladly say.
@@hei7586 I get it. And the Novus Ordo will never be scrapped anyway. But I still strongly believe that, objectively, the Novus Ordo is inferior to the TLM in every aspect. The TLM is absolutely equal to the Byzantine rite etc. so I'm not saying that it is the only way to worship. But when comparing the Old Rite and the Novus Ordo, the Old Rite is objectively better in every respect.
@@spraffman I hope God will gracefully accept all our heartfelt praise and worship and poor efforts in getting it right - and that is what matters in the end, isn't it? ('Lord, have mercy with me, a sinner!')
I feel like in a culture where the dominant culture is one of rebellion, the rebellious act becomes being traditional. The novelty doesn't ly anymore in changing hair color, gender or having tattoos, that's all become normal, novelty now lies in being orthodox, going to latin mass and adopting traditional norms and values.
I'm an amateur writer trying to go professional. I've published a few of my works on the internet. Whenever I get something in my inbox saying someone's left a comment/review on my writing, my immediate reaction is "Oh God. They've ripped it to shreds. I'm a hack. Why did I think this was a good idea?" But, I still open it and read it anyway. And I do get criticism sometimes, and occasionally harsh criticism at that, but not in a way that's trying to tear me down, but instead just pointing out areas where I could improve. But most of the time, it's positive fluff or just people thanking me for posting my story. Even so, my response to seeing the inbox mark tick up by one is that I'm about to be eviscerated. This wasn't intentional, but I find that going into these things with low expectations results in me being pleasantly surprised more often than not.
Matt. When you ask questions, will you please give your guest more time to respond before jumping in and talking over them? Doing that makes it more difficult to follow along with the conversation.
So much of the opposition in this video to “trads” seems to be the subjectivism that is criticised in this same video. “Trads criticise the mass *I* go to? How dare they! I like it therefore it’s good!”
I wouldn't consider myself a traditional catholic because I have not yet come to a full decision on which church I beleive is the most truthful. But I will say I am drawn towards tradition, whether that be through catholic orthodox or protestant churches (although even the most traditional protestant churches would still be considered modern compared to others). There is so much struggle and animosity towards the idea of "tradition" and "authority" in my generation (z) that its almost like I feel drawn to go completely against the culture. I don't know if this is just pride and "wanting to be different" or maybe tradition is really the best preservation of truth and source of grounding. I think that in years past the divide was still small enough that you could get by on the fence and in between paths with a healthy dose of both perspectives; but nowadays the gap is so wide that it has become impossible to not pick a side. Its worth noting that I think the progressive side has been doing most of the dividing, and thats maybe what leans me towards the traditional side. whatever it is I pray that I have discernment.
I think so too, but to declare yourself Catholic when another that declares the same thing but you act and believe two different things, then we're at the crisis that we see today. It's not enough to simply identify as Catholic, because that means something different today to everyone unfortunately.
@AJ, I appreciate where you're coming from. Here's why I think we should stick with Catholic, because if we don't then we allow dissenters to hijack that venerable and ancient name. Sometimes you've got to stand your ground and fight.
The elephant in the room is that catholics are perhaps reading "School of Darkness" by Bella Dodd and "Infiltration" By Dr Taylor Marshall, and rejecting the subversion of liturgy, choosing to return to the authentic and reverent.
St. John Cantius staffs the Church I started going to when covid started. Those priests also do the NO at certain times. For a few months I was doing both TLM and NO. Have decided that I really like the TLM more. I do better paying attention and praying. Plus, I get super happy when we sing the Salve Regina at the end. Really the selling point 😅
I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and, although i always used the Sunday Missal, we were not participating in the Mass, as we do with the Novus Ordo Mass. (And the beads clicking against the pews bc people were praying the rosary during Mass was always distracting). The “Low Mass “ was the usual, High Mass being reserved for special feast days. I was in my late 20’s when the Novus Ordo Mass was implemented. The Latin Mass of today is NOT the same as it was pre Vatican II.
Why did you never learn to participate in the mass. You find those that rattle their beads distracting? That's like saying you find the Holy bells that signifies the consecration of the host distracting. You reek of Modernists thought and misunderstanding. It's like you never took time to understand why we do what we do in mass.
@@AJ-ox8xy There are no rubrics in the Tridentine Mass that instruct the faithful to ACTIVELY participate, (such as the responses in the Novus Ordo Mass). The altar servers were trained to do the Latin responses. Many of us DID participate, albeit passively, by using the Missal which had the Latin on one page and the English translation on the facing page. I still have my 1958 edition. When people are banging their rosaries against the pew in front of them, it can be annoying when you’re trying to follow the Mass. And do you think those praying the Rosary were paying attention to the Holy Mass? I am very far from being a “modernist” and am, in fact, very traditional. I try to attend Mass daily and have been an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist for nearly 25 years. I also had 13 years of Catholic school education and have studied my Faith by reading good Catholic authors on Catholic spiritually, theology, and apologetics. I think the Latin Mass has an important place in the Church, and I certainly don’t fault anyone for preferring it. But the Latin Mass today is a far cry from what it was when I was growing up in the ‘40’s, 50’s and 60’s. I’m sure if you attend the Latin Mass as celebrated in 2021, you do not see the kind of stuff that was going on pre-Vatican II. One of the reasons for the Ecumenical Council was to address the kind of abuses that I was talking about. I hope this lengthy reply adjusts your attitude toward the Novus Ordo Mass.
A lot of people who become Catholic or stay Catholic do so because they want to be as "ancient", as "traditional", and yes, even as "conservative" as possible. For some reason these things give a lot of people a sense of seriousness and authenticity. Unfortunately, that's actually not a good hermeneutic. The truth isnt new, or old, or right, or left. Its eternal, right smack dab in the middle of God's love.
Coming from the perspective of an incoming Catholic from an Evangelical background with very little experience with the "inside baseball" discussions about the liturgy, I will say that having an Mass in English is incredibly helpful in understanding what is happening in the mass. It is already incredibly difficult for me to understand what a more experienced Catholic would consider the most basic parts of the Mass, and this is in no way because I do not care about sacred tradition as expressed through liturgy. By having mass in the vernacular language, I can grasp what is going on far easier, and I view the practice as an asset for Evangelical converts like myself. Do I think it should be celebrated with the full reverence and tradition as passed on through the Church? Absolutely. Can this be done using the vernacular language? In my limited experience, also yes.
Very good video! I love your friendship. The one thing I would push back on would be the fact that the 1971 Missal promulgated by Pope St. Paul VI is NOT the Missal of the Council. That would be the 1965 Missal. Unfortunately, that was then supplanted by the 1971 Missal which is what we use today as the Ordinary Form of the Mass. The 1965 Missal included all those things that people "complain" about in regards to the TLM: vernacular readings, people chanting simple forms of the Ordinary of the Mass, but it's essentially a vernacularized version of the TLM. The 1971 Missal was a "going away" from the Council's intentions. The Council didn't need a liturgical comittee to write new prayers and eucharistic anaphoras. I hope someday we return not simply to "beauty" but to a form of the Mass that respects Tradition, yet flexible enough to allow for organic development.
Brian, I like you, and you really come off as a guy trying to do the right thing and I really sympathize with you as a fellow Canadian. But you really have to do more research before you speak, Pope ST. Pius X didn't change the Divine Liturgy, he changed the Divine Office. They are completely different things, and while the divine office is liturgical, it's not the mass and is totally separate. The other thing is, even if the "Ordinary form" was in latin and ad orientum with only communion on the tongue, that would not fix many of the deep issues with the Novus Ordo that potentially render it invalid. I am going to make some recommendations for reading on the New Mass Michael Davies Liturgical Shipwreck Father Anthony Cekada work of human hands and I've heard Chookaswarmy's book is very good though I haven't read it.
Matt/Bryan, thank you for a good conversation. The chance that you read this comment are low, but thought I would try anyway. Others are welcome to skim (or, if you have time, give my thoughts a thoughtful read) and respond. I am curious, do you see any inherit problems with the Ordinary Form (e.g., not abuses)? Because here is the thing: when you look at some things like the lectionary, or the orations, there are clearly issues (the classical example being the total suppression of 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 twice). The collects in the EF also clearly have a more ascetical, "hate your life in this world, save it forever", whereas in the Ordinary Form, they were watered down. One only wonders what difference the omission of that little verse has had on Catholic culture the past 50 years. To see what I mean, just look at all the bracketed readings; maybe I am reading with biased lenses, but when I see this, almost always the bracketed out stuff is the controversial stuff (e.g. "wives, submit to your husbands"). I don't claim that the EF is a perfect liturgy (indeed, the only perfect liturgy is the eternal one in heaven), but it seems that, while valid, the Ordinary Form has far more inherit issues than the EF, and that just celebrating the Ordinary Form with some smells and bells, while nice, does not begin to address the rubrical issues and the many changes in the propers and ordinaries. I should also mention that SC, while a beautiful document with many good points, can totally be read in a way that makes most of the (objectively, not subjectively) un-reverant Ordinary Forms I attend completely valid. A friend once asked me what Vatican II said on music. I showed him. His response? "Huh, so it basically is a both-and approach". I said "Yup!" The things is, under SC, and the current rubrics of the Ordinary Form, it is in principal totally fine to have 70s folk music in your mass. It is fine to have tamborines, guitars, etc, in mass. These are not abuses, but are something allowed by the liturgy itself. Very often, SC says something "traditional", and then in the next paragraph or so, goes on to say "well, you can actually for pastoral reasons do the 'non-traditional' thing." Is this not a poverty? Conversely, when Ordinary Forms are celebrated "traditionally", they are often wrought with liturgical abuses. If you are "reading the black, and doing the red", St. John Cantius commits abuses in re-introducing, admittedly traditional and beautiful ceremonies, back into the Ordinary Form (e.g., raising the chasuble at the elevation). A last antidote to illustrate my point. This last Sunday, I tried to convince my family to watch the St. John Cantius Ordinary Form with me in quarantine while I visited home and was away from the Tridentine Mass. Thought it may be a nice "in-between" compromise of sorts. They chose something else that was rather un-reverent to our Lord, somewhat rushed, and, while it had some nice aspects, was overall banal. I tried by God's grace to be able to look past all this the best I could during the actual liturgy, but in reflection, all I can say is "that liturgy was totally valid, and had no abuses". While I am no expert on Ordinary Form rubrics, having studied liturgy in private enough, I honestly can't think of any abuses that I perceived. Yet, it felt and seemed like it was more a broadcasted Bible study than the Holy Worship of the Trinity at points. I should say that I still hold Vatican II valid, and a real Council of the Church. But notwithstanding its legitimate authority when it speaks on liturgy, it is hard for me to see how there are not inheritantly un-prudential decisions that were made in both the writing of SC and the Novus Ordo. As I lay Catholic, I admit I could be wrong, and am striving to be a son of our Lord's Church, but these issues really are a struggle for me.
I'm 20. Getting baptized and confirmed Catholic this Easter! I never would have converted if I hadn't met traditional Catholics. Progressive messages I'd heard from mainstream Catholics made the Church seem weak
Congrats!! I'll be praying for you:)
@jjdwf I'm talking about how the Church SEEMED to me before I became Catholic.
@jjdwf That was the Message progressives within the church were giving off, and truthfully that’s exactly what they want to project. The problem lies within the progressives of the church and they are one main reason why others perceive us as weak.
@@annewithane7876 hey god bless you. Just curious on how your finding it.
@@Totallydepravedsinner thank you! I've grown a lot since i posted that original comment, and I still feel as though joining the Church was the best decision I've ever made. The hardest part is getting my Baptist family to understand, but they're mostly just glad I still am some form of Christian. I'm getting married in January to a great Catholic man (also a convert). We go to the Novus Ordo about half the time, and half TLM. God bless you as well!
19, engaged, trad. Looking to have as many kids as God sends us when we get married next year. We are aware that it's getting harder and harder to be a true, devout Catholic in todays day and age but we are prepared to never compromise even if it leads to persecution. I know our culture is dying and going dark but I'll be a bright light no matter how small. Be proud to be Catholic. Stay Catholic. God is with us and He will have the last laugh. Stay faithful to Him no matter what.
beautiful.
Same here! 19 and engaged hoping to have a super large family!
Awesome
I want to paraphrase one of the popes,
'All the darkness in the world cannot overcome the light of a single candle.'
Hi, Berwyn.
Thanks for your comment. You express some beautiful dispositions, as is to be expected in your situation.
While I don't want to take anything away from what you're saying, I'm going to try to complement your thoughts with some further considerations, which will be helpful and useful and encouraging to you only after the glow has come off. By His mercy God gives the delight of youthful love and anticipation to induce us to choose to follow the path of life. As you travel this path, you will come to find that it is indeed thorny and rocky. You will regret your decision and think that life would have been better had you chosen otherwise, and could yet be if you then were to choose otherwise. There are two things to draw from that. In the first place, now, while it's easy and delightful, build habits which are virtuous, as this will stand you in good stead. In the second place, when those days come, tough it out. During the dark days you will think that there is nothing beyond, but by toughing it out you will discover that you are both, and all, much happier for having stuck it through.
Hi guys!!! I’m a 75 yr old Catholic Priest of 40 yrs! I love to listen to you younger men talk about the faith. Especially the Traditional Catholic Faith. Yes, younger people do go for the traditional faith!!! Reverence, Respect, Love, and Holliness! God bless you...Fr.James
That means you likely experienced the TLM as a young boy and teen!
I hope you get to experience it again! Never to late!
Lex Orandi Lex Credendi!
62 yo male in McAllen TX!
@@TradCath Hello my brother, I grew up with the Latin Mass fortunately and know it very well! It truly is a beautiful way to Pray the Mass for a Priest like myself and for you also! I’m in Ohio and so far all is well! I really don’t care for the changes Vatican ll made and Francis has certainly made some serious mistakes he’ll have to answer for! Thanks for your comment and God bless you always!!! Meet you in the afterlife one day…..+Fr.James
Hello Father
Thank you for your comment.
As a priest of 40 years. I was wondering about your thoughts on fssp and sspx. I want a more traditional form of our faith and more reverence for the eucarist but do you believe the fssp or sspx are schismatics and would i be condemning my soul my attending.
@@martinez1991don Right now, I do not feel the they are NOT schismatics! If they would become under Jorge Bergoglio, I wouldn’t blame them! All Jorge has been doing is driving all Catholics apart! The one important factor that Jorge lacks is just what Jesus Himself taught….LOVE, the most important thing and full filament of the entire Law!!! If I wasn’t semi-retired, I might look into these myself! I maintain Traditionalism in my Heart, privately and with groups of people! God bless you…+Fr.James. Hint, the cross before Fr. Stands for Bishop!
I notice that people who leave are not only not traditional but are anti-traditional, while those who join are traditional.
The ones who leave were already being influenced by some sort of lie usually its modernist ideas.
@@nataliabenoit4653 Indeed. There's only Catholicism, and not.
@@nataliabenoit4653 Which is why that heresy is so, so destructive. We must pray for its ending.
Traditionalists vs. Pachamamists.
Contemporary-postmodernist art, post-Kierkegaard Existentialism, Nihilism, Marxist-Socialism, these are more than just heresy - they're of the devil.
I avoided calling myself a “traditional Catholic,” but as I learn more about my faith, it’s like it’s inevitable falling into that category.
.... orthodox Catholic
I always say that I’m orthodox.
Young and traditional down here in Australia too! Yes, we exist!
Greetings fellow Aussie
Oremus!
Yeah, the boys!
Ayee
Young and traditional here too! I have recently come back to the Catholic Church and can't wait to go to a TLM in Sydney
I'm 22 and getting married in a month, and I've been becoming more serious about Catholicism. I think a lot of what drove me away in my teens and college years was Catholics who were unprincipled and touchy feely. It made Catholicism seem like every other faith and hid the robust theology & philosophy that helped me come back to the church.
I love Brian Holdsworth. It was early on in my investigation of Catholicism that I came across his video about why he converted. It's part of what led me to be in the Church today. God bless
30 yo with 5 kids here. Had 0 clue there was such a thing as any other type of liturgy in the Church until I was an adult. I hope you appreciate how important these types of resources are to people like me. Knowing that there's similar sentiments from likeminded people here gives me hope.
40:01 the conversation addressed in the title
Thanks I kept forwarding . Really annoying that that’s the way it’s advertised and it’s 40 mins before it starts 😡
I know right? It's awful. False advertising
@@ClassicPhilosophyFTW I still very much enjoyed the whole thing
Seriously. I'm halfway in and I'm like, when do they stop talking about themselves?
Should have found this comment earlier 😅😅
We became traditional Catholics in 2019 when we were 31. Totally transformed our family’s faith!
Love the intro conversation. As a priest, I can relate to your sentiments of fear, discernment, using your platforms, and the talk about sometimes being criticized.
My father told me that when he was in Italy during World War 2, he began attending Sunday Mass at local churches. He spoke no Italian but his Missal from home and the Mass in Latin let him feel right at home. Finding the church at the right time was a bigger problem for him than participating at Mass. All the dialog in the Mass was in Latin and it was in his book. The readings were in Italian; his Missal had them in Latin and English. The Homily, delivered in Italian, was the only part he didn't understand but as he had read the Gospel reading, he was free to contemplate it and draw lessons from it.
Until the early 1960s, you could attend Mass anywhere in the world and the Missal you brought from home - wherever that might have been - would stand you in good stead. Dad's wartime experience would have been an accurate model of the experience.
In late 1963, my family made our second move in 6 months. Our new Parish priest was still saying the Tridentine Mass in Latin, as the canons required. After Vatican 2 concluded, he began saying that same Mass mostly in English. We moved again in mid 1965, our third move in just over 2 years. Our new parish was still celebrating Mass in Latin. In mid 1966, the three priests began celebrating Mass mostly in English. The next year, everything I heard was English. As far as I can tell, they just changed which side of the Missal page they read, the English rather than the Latin.
Everything was the same but the language.
The church was still full at every Mass on Sunday.
The changes continued. Some of the nuns teaching in the school were excited by the liturgical changes and some openly predicted women being ordained into the priesthood. Some of them fervently embraced every change and acted like cheerleaders.
I had moved on from the nuns' sphere of influence before the new table style altar was installed and the Novus Ordo Mass was instituted.
Everything changed in appearance. A Sunday evening Mass was added. Then, they added a Saturday evening Mass.
The church was still nearly full at every Mass on Sunday.
The parish moved into a new church about 1990. It was very plain and utilitarian. There was no high altar. In its place, on a slightly raised platform are three chairs for the priest and servers. Yes, they are actually higher than the altar as though more important than the altar and what takes place upon it. My oldest sister once described it as "definitely Christian but not necessarily Catholic."
Things kept changing in mostly small ways though, at some point, the prayers of the Canon of the Mass (Offertory through Communion - which I could practically recite from memory in English) were radically changed. Four different Eucharistic Prayers are available today, each with a set of invocations and congregation responses from which to choose on the fly. Even exclusively in English, the current Mass is far more confusing to me than the Latin Mass ever was.
Attendance noticeably declined as all these things changed.
Small things kept changing and attendance kept declining.
Devotions like Eucharistic Adoration, Stations Of The Cross, public recitation of the Rosary and processions on major feast days are all gone or much reduced. So are the parishioners, particularly the young families. Our schools are mostly gone, too, as the young families have fewer children.
The parish that had 3 priests 50 years ago now has one priest and a deacon. The parish now has a Saturday Mass, only 2 on Sunday morning (there were 4 and possibly 5 before noon in 1966) and another on Sunday evening. The last time I attended Mass there, every person at Mass that Sunday could lie down in the pews without crowding anyone. The local cathedral that my father avoided in the 1960s because it was always too crowded has way more capacity than it needs even with the COVID-19 "mitigations."
I would like to go back to the Tridentine Mass in Latin but the vernacular, English here, would also be preferable to the current Novus Ordo Mass. I want the Lord's Prayer WITHOUT the non-scriptural Protestant addition. I want the priest to bless us with the Peace of Christ rather than having all of us wave at each other during Mass. I want altar boys back; the novelty of our current altar girls wore thin a long time ago. I want the "Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers" to be truly "extraordinary." They are NOT "extraordinary" if they are at EVERY Mass, as is currently the case; I would really like them to go away altogether. Most of all, I want the Communion Rail back and I want the priest to give me the Holy Eucharist on my tongue as I kneel to receive the Blessed Sacrament.
Our churches are nearly empty. Vocation rates have fallen off a cliff.
The "inclusive" and "ecumenical" innovations have failed. Go back to what worked.
Let us BE CATHOLIC again.
Look friend that won't be given to you in a silver plate to you these days. You'll have to search for it.
Lol I have obligations to a novus ordo parish, and while I was there the pastor told the congregation (less than 20 people sitting and a few additional waiting in their cars) that they were doing all these hand gestures and sign language and virtual stuff so the parish could be more vibrant and have more active youth feel to it and make everyone feel younger. I looked around and saw maybe 5 people under the age of 20. Two under the age of 30. Everyone else was old. The young people were all there with their grandparents man. Later that day I went to my not-so-local TLM and it was PACKED with young people. I see people under the age of 30 with 5 kids, new young families who were just married and have a brand new little one, their playground is packed with kids and young families. Even before the lockdown the novus ordo parish was mostly elderly folk, now it’s even more exasperated. All the young people moved to the Latin mass. For good reason too. I even know a family that converted from Protestantism directly to the Latin mass parish. They’ve never had to deal with the insanity that I’ve seen at NO parishes over the years.
nice
Wow I literally love both of these guys so much! God knew I needed this!!!
I guess me 43 and my husband 44 are old trads - lol. Two years of the tlm and love it!
Far better than being a young Pachamamist.
@@raymack8767 or an old one- that's worse, actually!
Some of us remember being an altar boy in Dunedin and everything in Latin🌝...no Latin Mass within 60km where I am now
@@neville132bbk that’s too bad so far for you...
Annoyingly young from the vantage point of mid 60s!😁
21 year old Traditional catholic from India ❤️
This is so confirming and uplifting, especially as an older Catholic. You go Catholic youth!!! 💚
I'm not exactly young, but have a young family and I consider myself traditional. It was my research into the Tridentine Mass that transformed me.
Growing up in the New Mass, I've had to change the words and postures I've used several times throughout my life. Really, I'm just tired of the inconsistency and lack of reverence. I'm tired of the boomer mentality of "come as you are" and "the Church of nice."
I just want something stable and eternally renewable for my family and I.
This I've found within the Extraordinary Form and the Eastern Catholic Tradition.
God bless you, stay faithful
A.) 1.) St. Sixtus 1 (circa 115): "The Sacred Vessels are not to be handled by others than those consecrated to the Lord."
2.) St. Basil the Great, Doctor of the Church (330-379): "The right to receive Holy Communion in the hand is permitted only in times of persecution."
St. Basil the Great considered Communion in the hand so irregular that he did not hesitate to consider it a grave fault.
3.) The Council of Saragossa (380): Excommunicated anyone who dared continue *receiving Holy Communion by hand.*
4.) This was *confirmed* by the Synod of Toledo.
5.) Saint Leo the Great read the sixth chapter of Saint John's Gospel as referring to the Eucharist (as all the Church Fathers did).
In a preserved sermon on John 6 (Sermon 9), Saint Leo says: "Hoc enim ore sumitur quod fide creditur" (Serm. 91.3). This is translated strictly as: “This indeed is received by means of the mouth which we believe by means of faith. "Ore" is here in the ablative and in the context it denotes instrumentation. So then, the *mouth* is the means by which the Holy Eucharist is received.
6.) The Synod of Rouen (650): Condemned Communion in the hand to halt widespread abuses that occurred from this practice, and as a safeguard against *sacrilege.*
The Council of Rouen (650): “Do not put the Eucharist in the hands of any layman or laywoman but *only in their mouths.”*
7.) The 6th Ecumenical Council, at Constantinople (680-681): Forbade the faithful to take the Sacred Host in their hand, threatening transgressors *with excommunication.*
8.) St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274): "Out of reverence towards this Sacrament [the Holy Eucharist], *nothing touches it,* but what is consecrated; hence the corporal and the chalice are consecrated, and likewise the priest's hands, for touching this Sacrament." (Summa Theologica, Part III, Q. 82, Art. 3, Rep. Obj. 8.)
9.) The Council of Trent (1545-1565): "The fact that only the priest gives Holy Communion with his consecrated hands is an *Apostolic Tradition".*
B.) Protestant schismatic modernists are like Luther and deny adherence to all popes in concert with councils past as given in A, which say no to unconsecrated hands touching sacred vessels, say no to hands receving communuion except in times of persecution, etc. All of these cannot be expressed any differently. Truth is truth except for modernist relativists. Sin is sin, per Sacred Scripture, Tradition, etc.
Ecumenical Counsels, the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, or the solemn teachings of supreme pontiffs are binding to the faithful:
"But when either the Roman Pontiff or the Body of Bishops together with him defines a judgment, they pronounce it in accordance with Revelation itself, which all are obliged to abide by and be in conformity with, that is, the Revelation which as written or orally handed down is transmitted in its entirety through the legitimate succession of bishops and especially in care of the Roman Pontiff himself, and which under the guiding light of the Spirit of truth is religiously preserved and faithfully expounded in the Church.”
All of 1-9 are in agreement. The popes in concert with the councils are in agreement, and popes before and after each council are in agreement and Trent is the capstone that by citing "Apostolic Tradition" anchors them in the New Testament making it irreversible forever.
C.) Finally, the past popes and councils worked together in agreement on 1-9 I listed above, and popes before and after them agreed with them in accordance with the quoted section in B. Once they declared certain actions involved with the Eucharist service to be sin, sacrilege, mortal sin, excommunicable offenses, and so on, it was sin. Period. Something can't be sin one year and not sin the next.
The Council of Trent cited Apostolic Tradition as a capstone against heretics like Luther, thus for people now to make the things said in 1-9 to not be sin, mortal sin, etc, (those declared in 1-9 to be sin, mortal sin, etc, to do) would be akin to saying that what St. Peter and St. Paul said were sin are no longer sin. Thus for people now to say what 1-9 declared to be sins aren't sins would be like St. Peter and Paul writing that something was sin and people now saying it isn't and challenging them.
Truth isn't relativistic... And people quoting something and twisting it to support just one pope is heretical.
@@raymack8767
Thank you for the informative reply and references! I'll have to look further into these things!
It's frustrating, for me, to think that such teachings can receive an "indult."
I truly do believe, and I recently heard a good priest say during his homily, that 'the times we're living in, this pandemic and all the churches closing down related to it, is all part of God's plan. He is sifting the chaff from the grain.'
God is bringing judgment upon us for our lack of Faith in the True Presence in the Eucharist, our poor church attendance, bad catechesis and our insufficient liturgies (particularly in the Roman Rite, if you happen to notice the only places that remained open and are actually gaining parishioners are traditional ones who preserve the TLM or Eastern Liturgies)!
This is all His plan. If we don't turn things around. It will get worse...
I had the exact same experience Brian had at the FSSP parish he is talking about with the SSPX Chapel I now attend. I had heard a million terrible and uncharitable things about the people there, that they where snobbish and schismatic. Instead I found many beautiful and loving families that took us, who knew next to nothing and accepted us. The priests that I've met are all wonderful as well.
The only SSPX people I've met are all under 30... from the chapel in Wanganui NZ
Delighted you got Brian on the show!
Two powerhouses 📿🙏🏼🔥🔥
Really looking forward to this one 😄
Where are all the catholic teenagers?
I'm right here.
Sameeeee
Right here! 16 and leaning traditional for sure
Me too
here 😂
Wouldn’t it be cool if there was a group chat of Catholic teenagers!! If you want to be in a group chat I can make one on Instagram! My Instagram is abbytay03!!!
Lover of the TLM here. Just some thoughts and opinions:
It was the Divine Liturgy sung in English (with some Greek and Arabic) that made me first appreciate the value of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Is the Novus Ordo valid? Yes.
Is it licit? Yes.
Is it prudent? No.
If you want that middle road of mutual enrichment, it should be East enriching West, not Simon and Garfunkel meets West. Let the Ordinary Form be the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. This was allowed by 20th century pre-V2 popes for some Eastern European nations.
It’s also not good to lump those who think the Novus Ordo was a mistake in with Sedevacantists. That’s the quickest way to have Glad-Trads turn into Rad-Trads. People’s identity can be wrapped up in the nuance of thought, so great care and prudence must be taken when addressing groups of people and what “they believe.”
Denver has many great parishes. Glad Bryan was able to experience it. Many people from Wyoming drive down every Sunday to attend Masses in various Denver parishes. Please pray for Archbishop Aquila!
I truly love the SSPX church I attend in Houston Tx (actually Dickinson) I love the lace, the overabundant incense smoke, the lighted candle poles held by the altar boys, the abundance of altar BOYS, the prayers of the mass, the chant💖🙏
Do you have a daily mass?
@@TradCath yes
@@marycasper5510 thank you!
I have a daily TLM here in Pharr TX by a priest of the Oratory of St Philip Neri
However he does so at the whim of the bishop of Brownsville
I would have to consider all my options if that permission were to be withdrawn
@@TradCath awwwe sorry for you. We have 6 residence priest and one brother, a school, so many activities, too many, every night if you want, a daily 6 p rosary in the church with the priest, they say their prayers of the office every three hours in the church, two masses per day except Monday (1), lots of special things, devotion to Holy Face every 2nd Sunday, rosary to our Lady of Perpetual Help every Tuesday, your home enthroned to the Sacred Heart of Jesus, virtually ALL the beautiful tradition of the past, a step back in time, you would love it
@@marycasper5510 wow! I am in holy envy!
Matt and Brian, two great modern apostles. Thank you very much!
The cover picture for this clip is prophetic I think - let me explain. It showed the Sacred Heart. The Sacred Heart is at the core of the entire Catholic Counter-Revolution, that we often call "the traditional movement". Viva Cristo Rey
52:15 and 59:55 very important!
Before the pandemic, I often attended a chanted Novus Ordo mass with a monastic community - incense, deeply contemplative and all the rest. To me, it defies this tendency towards polarization. Full pews.
I’ve had experiences in both Novus Ordo and Tridentine masses that have felt either spiritually elevating or dull/aversive.
Small is the gate and narrow the way.
I love Brian!!!! 😊
The way he puts things together, knowledgeably, patiently, gives the air of peace and balance I need so much.
N.O made the Mass too protestant, and lacked reverence and respect... the Trad Mass is all that is missing in the NO Mass.. Truly love it.. Love from Australia.
Thank you for all you do. Your channel is helping me out of a rather tough time.
Wonderful interview/exchange. I had no idea Matt Fradd and Brian Holdsworth knew each other! I’ve been watching them both for quite some time. This made my day. God bless you guys!
Whenever I mention Brian to my wife she says, "That's the lion man, right?"
I love the young adult trad cats I'm one of 'em didn't know I was until someone said it lol
XD Trad cats, I like it. I'll have to remember that one.
I am 60 yrs old and i love the sacredness feeling of the TLM , and i never like the church architecture of the 70's,80's and 90's
Yeah ...Modernism has definitely contributed to the division in the Church amongst Catholics...
Love how St. Pius X clearly and openly spoke out against Modernism and ‘no’ he didn’t have a soft and gentle tone. Our shepherds have gone too soft and liberal. And there’s always a price to pay......Tradition must be restored..
Good, hopefully they can help restore Church from the incalculable damage done by the ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing from the 1960s.
Read School of Darkness by Bella Dodd, it begin much earlier than that.
Matt, you are getting a lot better at not getting excited and interrupting! It’s inspiring because I have this problem too.
I would really like it if you two could expand upon “dealing with” the abuses in an ordinary form-only local parish. What can be done, if anything, when you live in a place with one or two parishes, both Novus Ordo, and priests (and “music ministers”) who discourage a more traditional liturgy? This is a situation I think many, many traditionally minded Catholics find ourselves in right now.
Amen to this! I would have to drive past three Catholic churches with novus ordo and 1970s folk song style masses to be able to go to a more traditional or even just more reverent mass. Sometimes I feel like I should be part of the change at these other parishes, to one of which I belong. How?!
16 yo here who desires so much to be traditional, but there just isn’t much traditional around me... :(
Where are you in the world? You might not be thinking broadly enough
Read Dostoyevsky. Listen to bach. Go to church. Get married and have a family. Delete social media. Have a nice traditional life.
Do not limit yourself to where you are. It may be difficult because you are young, but if you value the Traditional faith. Find a Church that will provide it for you. Maybe you have to wait and move one day, but for now study and understand what Christ is moving you to do.
@@robiszabo903 XD I never expected the "read Dostoyevsky" to be a part of that, but after having finished both Crime & Punishment and Notes From The Underground in the last two weeks, it makes sense now.
That said, I don't think Bach and Dostoyevsky are necessary, though I agree both are good. If you want traditional, try Phoenix From The Ashes by Henry Sire. It's a long, though very interesting history of past heresies the church has faced and a very well-researched analysis on Vatican II.
As for people, that depends. Look up SSPX and the Militia Immaculate, those might help you.
Recently gone trad from DC, it's rough going when many in the church don't understand why you would go traditional, but it is definitely worth it.
Good to see you finally have Mr. Holdsworth on! God bless!
What about St Mary's in Chinatown?
@@lindaakguest4ever50 I have but haven't been able to get up early enough. My family doesn't own a car you see which makes it harder to get there.
That said, I heard they have a young adults group, so I'm going tomorrow to see if I can join. Fingers crossed.
Oh, if you are in it, do you know if the minimum age requirement is 18 or 21? It will only make a difference for a few weeks, but I'd like to go sooner if possible.
I attended the Latin Mass as a child and young teen. At that time, we had so many people attending Mass that our parish had 7 Masses on Sunday morning, beginning at 6 a.m. and ending with the noon Mass. The Masses couldnt have been 45 minutes long, as the parking lots had to be emptied after each Mass in order to accommodate the cars for the following Mass. I also remember 4 or 5 priests coming onto the altar prior to Communion to assist in giving the Holy Eucharist at the Communion rail. Upon the reopening of churches during the pandemic last June, I decided to attend Mass at a parish that offered the TLM. I was blown away and literally moved to tears, and of course, I later joined the parish! The Mass is almost 90 minutes long. There is confession before Mass, as well as recitation e of the rosary Angelus.
Matt, your podcast helps me turn my leisure time into learn more about Catholicism time. This has deepened my understanding of the faith so much, and challenged me to turn that understanding into actually leading a more holy life. I'm sure you feel pressure to always get better, faster, stronger with your platform, but just being able to sit down and watch two honest people talk openly about their faith is where that real good stuff comes from. Thank you for that.
All that to say, if you want to burn it all down and start a bookstore, I absolutely get it. But I've also gotten a lot out of non-bookstore Matt.
I've grown with the new mass, but I increasingly love TLM. Even attending it somewhat sporadically the graces and effects on my life were measurable.
The issue with latin NOM is the prayers aren't as good as in the TLM. Take for example such simple thing as the confiteor. In NOM invocations of Mary, saints are taken away making it inoffensive to protestants. Takes away notion of the Church in Heaven. If you think how to fix NOM, if you are honest about it you are going to end pretty much with TLM in sense like it is done in modern traditional parishes.
I don't think there is anything wrong with idea of future, where the Second Vatican Council is scrapped completely. I think it's easier to make true reform from scratch than to try salvage this monstrosity with insane amount of documents. Sacrosanctum Concilium while it seems like nice thing, it has holes in it, which were naturally used to come up with liturgy as it's common nowadays.
Two of my favorite Catholic RUclipsrs in the same video. Perfect way to start the weekend. Great video gentleman!
I agree with Brian. We are in our 50s and switched to TLM during the pandemic. We found the local mass online & were able to learn & understand the mass when churches were closed to visitors. It is much easier to hear the priest online than in person which was helpful when being 1st exposed to the mass. When things opened up in the summer we tried our NO for a few weeks in person but we missed the TLM. So we started going in person to TLM and really prefer it now. We live a few blocks from the NO parish but driving by we also noticed the NO seems to be less attended (we have been told so as well). Conversely TLM is quite crowed even at holy days during the week. On Tuesday we attended a Tuesday candle mass of 105 minutes which was sung and quite crowded which surprised me. Time goes quite quickly at mass. (at about 41 min in video)
I’ve never been to TLM and I’m going to go for the first time next week. I’ve enjoyed the “regular” mass for as long as I can remember. I would consider myself a strong practicing Catholic. I’m so intrigued by the division. I didn’t even know I was looked down on for not being “traditional” until my daughter went to college...a Catholic college where she found out otherwise. Lol anyhow looking forward to TLM maybe I’ll get hooked! Thank you I really enjoyed this video. God bless you both
so many trads I’ve encountered view novus ordo worshippers as inferior Catholics or 2nd class citizens. I personally don’t experience any more spiritual depth when attending TLM. I’m orthodox in my theological viewpoints but not a liturgical “traditionalist” Their pride and arrogance made me distance myself from the traditionalist movement.
Thank you for talking about your RUclips Creator life with all the discernment, struggles, and successes. It’s difficult to find Catholic leaders honestly discussing what this ministry looks like.
I would enjoy speaking with Matt. Bro is always joyous and super chill. God bless bro. Continue doing the work you are doing, I will be praying for you and your mission.
I grew up in the novus ordo and then recently went to some Latin masses. It was very simple for me. I just put the two masses side by side and found one was more beautiful and reverent than the other one. That seemed more fitting and attractive to me. So I made the switch. No looking back. For the first time in my life I now look forward to attending mass. Before I attended because of an obligation. Now I enjoy it.
Awesome discussion!! Thank you!!
Great video, I enjoyed it very much! I have been coming to Catholicism and have chosen a parish that does a Tridentine Mass, I have enjoyed it. Stay safe and God bless
32, Husband of one, father of 3. I just don't fit in in the Novus Ordo culture anymore. Wouldn't have it any other way.
Great video 👌🏽
I think the answer is very simple. Which is, for those that take their faith seriously, understanding and learning Tradition is the ultimate form of the faith. Not too mention many young people are lost and confused by our society. Especially western ones. I think the Traditional mass and way of living has brought about a sense of clarity and foundation many young people have yearned for yet never knew until we found the TLM. I encourage everyone to go to the TLM, specifically a Sung or High mass as those masses are most fulfilling for first timers.
I deleted all of my social media accounts a few months ago, and I feel LIBERATED. Seems dramatic but I truly recommend it to anyone else struggling to managing time/stress/negativity associated with it. I now have more time with my family, to get housework done, work on my hobbies, etc. It is worth it.
I wish that all movies on your channels had subtitles in different languages (especially Polish 😁)
🧡💛💚
To zróbmy coś z tym ;)
@@angrypotato_fz
Obawiam się, że mój poziom znajomości języka angielskiego jest niewystarczający 🥺
Smashing it out of the park. I could listen to this all day. Matt, you're awesome. You have something nobody else on RUclips has. Authenticity coupled with truly practical, theological insight.
Brian has something else unique I can't quite put my finger on. Maybe the way he lays out his ideas in a methodical but concise and easy to understand manner.
I'd love to see these two continue to collaborate more into the future!
I'm Catholic and that was what I thought was a traditional lifestyle?
But after a few years listening to a variety of Catholic presenters I realised that their are several types of Catholics. I still think I'm traditional because I seek God's divine Will and love Catholic traditions even thou as a 80's child we have been deprived of many of the traditional Catholic pre Vatican 2 liturgical ways and prayers. Bless you all for sharing your knowledge and love for our Mother church and Christ's ways.
I love Brian, he explains things so well, concise and short. And is a good leader for the youth who does not have much to cling on.
I have seen a ton of anti-traditional comments from Novus Ordo people toward traditionalists. Haven't experienced the reverse. The lady in the little catholic store is FSSP and has always been open and engaging with me as Novus Ordo. So all this Novus Ordo they are so mean to me has not been my life experience.
Matt, thanks for your great work! God bless you and your family.
I've been here for half the video and haven't heard about the topic yet. Wish the topic could be covered at least beginning in the first 10 minutes. Be blessed!
Me too. Just skip. The promised content szarts around 40:00.
Very thoughtful discussion thank you gentlemen. I read Sacrosanctum Concilium if only they followed that document more strictly, after the council.
Brian's beard is great! I love to listen to both of you and respect what each of you have to say (and quite often agree).
>the ordinary form done right is indistinguishable from the extraordinary form
Dr Peter Kwasniewski would like to have a word
Yes, this conversation was rather lightweight. The council documents also have their problems, see Ferrara's treatment here: salbert.tripod.com/SClel.htm The Ottaviani Intervention critiques the original most authentic celebration of the Novus Ordo.
I’d LOVE to see Dr. K on Matt’s show!
Hit the nail on the head with 1:05:29 - sing the Mass!
And the way the old liturgies weave the music and action together. The Novus Ordo, even when done according to the rubrics, has these pauses while we sing the Sanctus or the Agnus Dei, and nothing else can happen until that music is finished instead of the old layered parallel processing sort of thing.
"A theology which denies the historicity of nearly everything in the Gospels to which Christian life and affections and thought have been fastened for nearly two millennia - which either denies the miraculous altogether or, more strangely, after swallowing the camel of the Resurrection strains at such gnats as the feeding of the multitudes - if offered to the uneducated man can produce only one or other of two effects. It will make him a Roman Catholic or an atheist. " - CS Lewis, Fern Seeds and Elephants
CS Lewis said that?!
I agree with what Matt was saying about not going back to full tradition.
When I started coming back to mass, my parish did NO in a very reverent way, and it was amazing.
I had to move after 3 months, and the new parish isn't as reverent.
The biggest difference was the age of the priest. Younger priests did the more reverent mass.
Do you think it would be possible an interview, or debate, with Casey OFM from Breaking the Habit? I think it would be good for both. I'm european catholic. I think this trend to tradition as i felt is stronger in english speaking countries. Maybe because catholics are rarer in those countries. But recently, as trough experience i became aware of the spirit of Catholicism, i think the essence is more important than form (liturgy) although of course the liturgy for example influences the essence and spirit. i think there is a danger that traditionalists put liturgy before faith and virtuous and with liberals perhaps the danger it's to completely relativize every thing about the church and faith and works. i think it would be interesting as Casey it's not certainly a traditionalist to be interviewed.
He’s nothing but trouble. Stay far, far away from him and his heretical nonsense
@@jefffinkbonner9551 i don't think like that. i do think that confronting what we do not like is not only good but necessary. If what you see is wrong than you shoud be able to reason against it and if it´s right you shoudn't be able to reason against it. it helps being assertive and not held by vanity. no one has the monopoly of information, let alone of reason. there must be something in it of truth and i think there are. we just lost the golden point
@@jefffinkbonner9551 I agree stay away from him, he's a Modernist.
Respectfully, I disagree with the comments above. For anyone who sees this thread: Fr. Casey is certainly not a 'modernist', but you'd actually have to watch his content to know that (which you should- instead of trusting strangers in the comment section- including me) If he's a modernist than Matt Fradd is an extremist traditionalist 🤭 (which obviously Matt is not). Please don't make such accusations without at least elaborating as to how you came to such a conclusion. It is harmful and not very helpful imo
I agree, it could lead to a great conversation. Also, could we catholics stop attacking each other for approaching the issues in a different way? Fr. Casey's heart is known by the Lord, if you know anything he has done is wrong, tell him kindly, not by mockery or insults. "Love your enemies", told us Jesus, and yet we keep on hating even inside the Church. Yes, we need to defend the faith and be ready to fight against the Evil and his works, but as the Lord commands.
Hey Matt and Brian. I like both of your evangelism initiatives. I also think there is room in the Church for the Latin Mass in the now more rare extraordinary form, as a connection to Church history and as a manifestation of beauty. On this one, I would say people are living in a pretty small bubble if they really think there is a serious growth in a youth movement for traditionalism. It's plainly not the case, and the average World Youth Day with all its diocesan events and youth groups globally are evidence to the contrary, right? The Vatican II Church is here to stay and is in fact the norm, and as Francis has said ""You can be with the church and therefore follow the council, or you can not follow the council or interpret it in your own way, as you want, and you are not with the church". It's important to be of one mind with the Holy Father, as I know you both are.
Cradle Catholic here... I'm thinking about reverting and I have a burning question.
If one should attend the Mass when it's all in Latin, not understanding a word of Latin, how can you get anything out of it?
Isn't it better to have Mass in your native tongue where you can actually understand? To accept the gospel message you have to be able to understand it first.
Brian mentioned how Pius X changed the Divine Office, as a way to demonstrate that some change in the liturgy is okay, and that change really was needed. If you talk to trads who are really interested in these things though, you’ll find to a man that it is recognized that Pius X’s rearranging the psalter (whose arrangement was actually older than the traditional mass by a few centuries) was uncalled for, and a regrettable reform. The ability of the pontiff to change the liturgy by fiat is a very concerning reflection of ultramontanism. Prior to this, minor changes were either authorized by ecumenical councils (like Trent), or were implemented in the city of Rome by the pope, but not imposed on the rest of the world. So, just as there is enthusiasm among trads to restore the pre-55 holy week, on principle, I predict there being more and more enthusiasm to roll back even Pius X’s reforms, since those were the beginning of the period of liturgical experimentation. It’s not correct to think of the 1911 reforms as separate from the 1955, 1962, and 1969 reforms. All of these flowed from a certain mindset of the early 20th century. For those interested, Pius X rearranged the psalter for two reasons: to make the recitation shorter (Prime, Terce, Sext, None, and Compline were from their inception the same every day, but Pius X shortened Matins by transferring a lot of the Matins psalms to these hours), and to make it so that this psalter was used more frequently, since during time after Pentecost and time after Epiphany, there were so many feasts per week, and feast days used special sets of psalms. The solution ought to have been to reduce the rank of most of the feasts, or even to remove many of them. Change the calendar so it doesn’t get in the way of the Roman rite. Instead, Pius X changed the Roman rite so as not to have to mess with the calendar.
Byzantine Catholicism is its own separate Rite and as such may have its own devotions and way of doing things. As far as I know, the Latin Rite is the only Rite within the Church with 2 contrasting forms of Mass and 2 liturgical calendars.
I discovered Brian when I was watching videos about "The Problem with Modern Art".
I am Mexican, where 80% of the population is Roman Catholic and the veneration of the Virgin of Guadalupe generates more than 20 million visits a year, to her temple. But since I met Ken Ham, he has made me lean towards Catholic fundamentalism and I notice that a lot of the veneration of Jesus and the Virgin are half pagan, why dancers of the about 80 different ethnic groups worship Jesus and the Virgin with a mixture of pre-Hispanic rituals, like the celebration of the day of the dead ... what do you think?
39 minutes in they finally start the topic.
Thank you for your thoughts. Enjoyed.
Trad - Catholic right here ♡
Viva Cristo Rey ♡
Regarding what you say at around the 53-54 minute mark: I think the Novus Ordo should be scrapped completely - as there is no part of it which is an improvement on the traditional form, and it is in every way inferior textually and in practice. And for full disclosure, I attended the Novus Ordo exclusively from birth until I was about 20, then occasionally TLM. I then switched fully to TLM in the Easter of 2013, tangentially because of Francis, but directly because his election emboldened the priest in my parish and other priests in the diocese to roll back whatever miniscule progress had been made towards celebrating a more traditional Novus Ordo liturgy. I saw that my efforts were pointless and bad for my soul so I switched and found peace.
As a result, I can no longer counsel others to continue efforts to reform the Novus Ordo if I know they have access to the TLM. It only leads to heartbreak.
Why do you want to take away the Novus Ordo from me and others and force us to attend TLM?
@@hei7586 You can go to the Ordinariate instead. It's basically what the Novus Ordo should be, if someone really wants the vernacular despite Saint John XXIII's Apostolic Constitution on Latin.
@@spraffman Obviously most people here want the ordinary mass. Only some people attend the one latin mass you can go to, all the rest stick to their many 'normal' parish churches, I can gladly say.
@@hei7586 I get it. And the Novus Ordo will never be scrapped anyway. But I still strongly believe that, objectively, the Novus Ordo is inferior to the TLM in every aspect. The TLM is absolutely equal to the Byzantine rite etc. so I'm not saying that it is the only way to worship. But when comparing the Old Rite and the Novus Ordo, the Old Rite is objectively better in every respect.
@@spraffman I hope God will gracefully accept all our heartfelt praise and worship and poor efforts in getting it right - and that is what matters in the end, isn't it?
('Lord, have mercy with me, a sinner!')
I also Love Traditional Catholic Faith. From India
I feel like in a culture where the dominant culture is one of rebellion, the rebellious act becomes being traditional. The novelty doesn't ly anymore in changing hair color, gender or having tattoos, that's all become normal, novelty now lies in being orthodox, going to latin mass and adopting traditional norms and values.
I'm an amateur writer trying to go professional. I've published a few of my works on the internet. Whenever I get something in my inbox saying someone's left a comment/review on my writing, my immediate reaction is "Oh God. They've ripped it to shreds. I'm a hack. Why did I think this was a good idea?" But, I still open it and read it anyway. And I do get criticism sometimes, and occasionally harsh criticism at that, but not in a way that's trying to tear me down, but instead just pointing out areas where I could improve. But most of the time, it's positive fluff or just people thanking me for posting my story. Even so, my response to seeing the inbox mark tick up by one is that I'm about to be eviscerated. This wasn't intentional, but I find that going into these things with low expectations results in me being pleasantly surprised more often than not.
Matt. When you ask questions, will you please give your guest more time to respond before jumping in and talking over them? Doing that makes it more difficult to follow along with the conversation.
Thanks I enjoyed this conversation
So much of the opposition in this video to “trads” seems to be the subjectivism that is criticised in this same video.
“Trads criticise the mass *I* go to? How dare they! I like it therefore it’s good!”
I wouldn't consider myself a traditional catholic because I have not yet come to a full decision on which church I beleive is the most truthful. But I will say I am drawn towards tradition, whether that be through catholic orthodox or protestant churches (although even the most traditional protestant churches would still be considered modern compared to others). There is so much struggle and animosity towards the idea of "tradition" and "authority" in my generation (z) that its almost like I feel drawn to go completely against the culture. I don't know if this is just pride and "wanting to be different" or maybe tradition is really the best preservation of truth and source of grounding. I think that in years past the divide was still small enough that you could get by on the fence and in between paths with a healthy dose of both perspectives; but nowadays the gap is so wide that it has become impossible to not pick a side. Its worth noting that I think the progressive side has been doing most of the dividing, and thats maybe what leans me towards the traditional side. whatever it is I pray that I have discernment.
Praying for you Ethan.
In my opinion, its best just to identify as Catholic.
I think so too, but to declare yourself Catholic when another that declares the same thing but you act and believe two different things, then we're at the crisis that we see today. It's not enough to simply identify as Catholic, because that means something different today to everyone unfortunately.
@AJ, I appreciate where you're coming from. Here's why I think we should stick with Catholic, because if we don't then we allow dissenters to hijack that venerable and ancient name. Sometimes you've got to stand your ground and fight.
I totally agree! Try not to create diversion in the church.
Love your work. Two great Catholic communicators from the British Commonwealth.
Serve God, honour the Queen!
The elephant in the room is that catholics are perhaps reading "School of Darkness" by Bella Dodd and "Infiltration" By Dr Taylor Marshall, and rejecting the subversion of liturgy, choosing to return to the authentic and reverent.
St. John Cantius staffs the Church I started going to when covid started. Those priests also do the NO at certain times. For a few months I was doing both TLM and NO. Have decided that I really like the TLM more. I do better paying attention and praying. Plus, I get super happy when we sing the Salve Regina at the end. Really the selling point 😅
I grew up with the Tridentine Mass and, although i always used the Sunday Missal, we were not participating in the Mass, as we do with the Novus Ordo Mass. (And the beads clicking against the pews bc people were praying the rosary during Mass was always distracting). The “Low Mass “ was the usual, High Mass being reserved for special feast days. I was in my late 20’s when the Novus Ordo Mass was implemented. The Latin Mass of today is NOT the same as it was pre Vatican II.
Why did you never learn to participate in the mass. You find those that rattle their beads distracting? That's like saying you find the Holy bells that signifies the consecration of the host distracting.
You reek of Modernists thought and misunderstanding. It's like you never took time to understand why we do what we do in mass.
@@AJ-ox8xy There are no rubrics in the Tridentine Mass that instruct the faithful to ACTIVELY participate, (such as the responses in the Novus Ordo Mass). The altar servers were trained to do the Latin responses. Many of us DID participate, albeit passively, by using the Missal which had the Latin on one page and the English translation on the facing page. I still have my 1958 edition.
When people are banging their rosaries against the pew in front of them, it can be annoying when you’re trying to follow the Mass. And do you think those praying the Rosary were paying attention to the Holy Mass? I am very far from being a “modernist” and am, in fact, very traditional. I try to attend Mass daily and have been an Extraordinary Minister of the Eucharist for nearly 25 years. I also had 13 years of Catholic school education and have studied my Faith by reading good Catholic authors on Catholic spiritually, theology, and apologetics. I think the Latin Mass has an important place in the Church, and I certainly don’t fault anyone for preferring it. But the Latin Mass today is a far cry from what it was when I was growing up in the ‘40’s, 50’s and 60’s. I’m sure if you attend the Latin Mass as celebrated in 2021, you do not see the kind of stuff that was going on pre-Vatican II. One of the reasons for the Ecumenical Council was to address the kind of abuses that I was talking about. I hope this lengthy reply adjusts your attitude toward the Novus Ordo Mass.
@@helenr.2184 Then MAYBE the church should have encourage participation instead of trowing the MASS OF THE AGES down the......
@@helenr.2184 Your generation did so much damage. You solved nothing.
A lot of people who become Catholic or stay Catholic do so because they want to be as "ancient", as "traditional", and yes, even as "conservative" as possible. For some reason these things give a lot of people a sense of seriousness and authenticity. Unfortunately, that's actually not a good hermeneutic. The truth isnt new, or old, or right, or left. Its eternal, right smack dab in the middle of God's love.
Very well said, thank you!!
Coming from the perspective of an incoming Catholic from an Evangelical background with very little experience with the "inside baseball" discussions about the liturgy, I will say that having an Mass in English is incredibly helpful in understanding what is happening in the mass. It is already incredibly difficult for me to understand what a more experienced Catholic would consider the most basic parts of the Mass, and this is in no way because I do not care about sacred tradition as expressed through liturgy. By having mass in the vernacular language, I can grasp what is going on far easier, and I view the practice as an asset for Evangelical converts like myself. Do I think it should be celebrated with the full reverence and tradition as passed on through the Church? Absolutely. Can this be done using the vernacular language? In my limited experience, also yes.
I agree!
But that's not the case is it?
Very good video! I love your friendship. The one thing I would push back on would be the fact that the 1971 Missal promulgated by Pope St. Paul VI is NOT the Missal of the Council. That would be the 1965 Missal. Unfortunately, that was then supplanted by the 1971 Missal which is what we use today as the Ordinary Form of the Mass. The 1965 Missal included all those things that people "complain" about in regards to the TLM: vernacular readings, people chanting simple forms of the Ordinary of the Mass, but it's essentially a vernacularized version of the TLM. The 1971 Missal was a "going away" from the Council's intentions. The Council didn't need a liturgical comittee to write new prayers and eucharistic anaphoras. I hope someday we return not simply to "beauty" but to a form of the Mass that respects Tradition, yet flexible enough to allow for organic development.
Loved the part of the podcast when you got into the religion stuff. You both are gifts! :)
Sorry, but it's halfway through and we still haven't got to the subject of the title. Why not just call it, 'a random chat with Brian Holdsworth'?
Danke!
Brian, I like you, and you really come off as a guy trying to do the right thing and I really sympathize with you as a fellow Canadian. But you really have to do more research before you speak, Pope ST. Pius X didn't change the Divine Liturgy, he changed the Divine Office. They are completely different things, and while the divine office is liturgical, it's not the mass and is totally separate. The other thing is, even if the "Ordinary form" was in latin and ad orientum with only communion on the tongue, that would not fix many of the deep issues with the Novus Ordo that potentially render it invalid. I am going to make some recommendations for reading on the New Mass
Michael Davies Liturgical Shipwreck
Father Anthony Cekada work of human hands
and I've heard Chookaswarmy's book is very good though I haven't read it.
Good old Michael Davies... I will affirm this recommendation.
Matt/Bryan, thank you for a good conversation. The chance that you read this comment are low, but thought I would try anyway. Others are welcome to skim (or, if you have time, give my thoughts a thoughtful read) and respond. I am curious, do you see any inherit problems with the Ordinary Form (e.g., not abuses)? Because here is the thing: when you look at some things like the lectionary, or the orations, there are clearly issues (the classical example being the total suppression of 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 twice). The collects in the EF also clearly have a more ascetical, "hate your life in this world, save it forever", whereas in the Ordinary Form, they were watered down. One only wonders what difference the omission of that little verse has had on Catholic culture the past 50 years. To see what I mean, just look at all the bracketed readings; maybe I am reading with biased lenses, but when I see this, almost always the bracketed out stuff is the controversial stuff (e.g. "wives, submit to your husbands").
I don't claim that the EF is a perfect liturgy (indeed, the only perfect liturgy is the eternal one in heaven), but it seems that, while valid, the Ordinary Form has far more inherit issues than the EF, and that just celebrating the Ordinary Form with some smells and bells, while nice, does not begin to address the rubrical issues and the many changes in the propers and ordinaries.
I should also mention that SC, while a beautiful document with many good points, can totally be read in a way that makes most of the (objectively, not subjectively) un-reverant Ordinary Forms I attend completely valid. A friend once asked me what Vatican II said on music. I showed him. His response? "Huh, so it basically is a both-and approach". I said "Yup!" The things is, under SC, and the current rubrics of the Ordinary Form, it is in principal totally fine to have 70s folk music in your mass. It is fine to have tamborines, guitars, etc, in mass. These are not abuses, but are something allowed by the liturgy itself. Very often, SC says something "traditional", and then in the next paragraph or so, goes on to say "well, you can actually for pastoral reasons do the 'non-traditional' thing." Is this not a poverty?
Conversely, when Ordinary Forms are celebrated "traditionally", they are often wrought with liturgical abuses. If you are "reading the black, and doing the red", St. John Cantius commits abuses in re-introducing, admittedly traditional and beautiful ceremonies, back into the Ordinary Form (e.g., raising the chasuble at the elevation).
A last antidote to illustrate my point. This last Sunday, I tried to convince my family to watch the St. John Cantius Ordinary Form with me in quarantine while I visited home and was away from the Tridentine Mass. Thought it may be a nice "in-between" compromise of sorts. They chose something else that was rather un-reverent to our Lord, somewhat rushed, and, while it had some nice aspects, was overall banal. I tried by God's grace to be able to look past all this the best I could during the actual liturgy, but in reflection, all I can say is "that liturgy was totally valid, and had no abuses". While I am no expert on Ordinary Form rubrics, having studied liturgy in private enough, I honestly can't think of any abuses that I perceived. Yet, it felt and seemed like it was more a broadcasted Bible study than the Holy Worship of the Trinity at points.
I should say that I still hold Vatican II valid, and a real Council of the Church. But notwithstanding its legitimate authority when it speaks on liturgy, it is hard for me to see how there are not inheritantly un-prudential decisions that were made in both the writing of SC and the Novus Ordo. As I lay Catholic, I admit I could be wrong, and am striving to be a son of our Lord's Church, but these issues really are a struggle for me.