Hey Randall, I disagree strongly on ECC not being critical. ECC is crucial for system stability. Bit flips are fact and they occur in OS memory space too. They are cause for more system hangs than sysadmins would like to admit. Computer that you power off daily will get memory hard refreshed anyway so bit flips will "disappear". But for system that will be on 24/7, ECC is a must. Either that or be ready to have that 2am call to go reset the server. Thank you for awesome content.
Get that sorted? Take it down to 1 stick ram, no drives, remove any OC (shouldn't be on a NAS but just sayn)... May have to reset the BIOS... some mobos have dual bios selected with jumper, if yours has two, try the other bios... good luck
Thank you for emphasizing that ECC is not really a big deal. I'm tired of seeing hardliner comments on every home server video saying ECC is required, as if we can all just double the budget for our mobo, RAM and CPU out of thin air.
To go for Registered ECC it is probably double, but Unbuffered is possible on some consumer motherboards, you only pay a little extra for the RAM. ASRock does this, I have a B550 Steel Legend with a 5800x and 32GB of 3200MHz Unbuffered ECC. You have to do some extra research and digging to find the products, but it's possible.
I went down this road about 5 years ago and ended up with a Supermicro MBD-X10SDV-TLN4F-O, with the embedded 1541SOC chip, 64gigs ram and SSDs. One spinner for backups. This has been my home server/testbed, and even with a T350-T4 Intel ethernet card and 7 drives, it runs on average in the mid 90s watts, running 6 servers in ESXI. Saved me a bunch in energy bills vs my prior builds where the chip alone would pull that... and doesn't heat the room up in summer. My Truenas is another supermicro, a MBD-X10SAE-O that I just put a used Pentium G3220T in, replacing an 85w TDP XEON- it's only serving files to 2 people so the XEON was a bit much... Next year I plan updating both... hence I am watching...
This video has so much valuable content in it. So many great ideas I used to create something from parts I had to make a low powered high performance NAS. TY L1 team
I’m quite happy with the intermediary stage of old Xeon E3 systems because my needs are fairly light and the power consumption on that platform is quite reasonable.
Awesome video Wendell and the team at Level1! I built a similar NAS some time ago using a 10400T (low power 6c/12t), and 3x 5tb Seagate 2.5" drives, and an NvME. Jam all of that into an Inwin Chopin case, and you've got 3.3L of low power; silent; and tiny NAS goodness running TrueNAS SCALE and a RAIDZ1 array. For anyone wondering, I had to design/3d print a custom holder for the 3x 15mm thick drives... otherwise you can only fit 2x 15mm drives at a squeeze. Currently in the process of figuring out how to fit a Mellanox MCX311 card into it (10GbE goodness!)... I think i'm going to need a custom/angled riser.
I love my low power silent Ryzen TrueNAS system. Based around the asrock rack x570 (matx - 2X 10GBe), Ryzen 9 5900 (OEM - 65W) running at 45W ECO mode, and 128GB ecc 3200mhz ddr4. Passively cooled, to boot.
Were you able to verify that ECC is indeed enabled and working correctly? If so, can TrueNAS check that natively, or did you use something else? I also read that Ryzen (non-Pro) can sometimes claim that ECC is enabled when it actually isn't. So I wonder if you basically have to inject errors (which afaik isn't easy) to check if it _actually_ corrects/detects errors.
Just “downgraded” my home setup from a Ryzen 3700x/64GB/Asrock rack 470d4u to a NUC8i7BEH with 64 gig. Power was about 100w now tops out at around 40w. Still runs Proxmox 7 and all my home essentials including a VM loaded with Docker containers. Keep in mind I do have a Synology NAS for data storage. The power savings really is what drove me to it. So far, so good! Loving the low power home series videos, Wendell! Looking forward to what W680 and Raspberry Pi 5 will bring.
You probably could have got similar results installing a 5650GE or 5750GE in your old motherboard. Those are 35W TDP chips but perform pretty close to the regular Ryzen 5000 chips.
I really want to know what the heck happened with W680 - Supermicro is the only retailer with boards available to consumers (AFAIK), as I cannot find the GIGABYTE/ASRock boards anywhere. Xeons were seemingly planned but not even launched so Intel had to support ECC on (some) consumer CPUs. It seems daft, as a 12500 or 12600K + a hypothetical W680 Vision/Creator/WS/whatever else would've been the perfect middle ground for a lot of people, as the 500€ required for the X13SAE are... a bit much, for most people, even if I'm sure it's a fantastic board.
The new Octo-core Atom Xeons have some extra punch, with very low power draw at idle. They are soldiered to the motherboard, but will last a decade. They can have ECC ram, 10G/s Lan, 1x PCIe slot, 2x SAS plugs for 8 drives and a couple of SATA plugs. Just those thing alone are what we need for a home server.
perfect sponsor. Own 3 of the meshify 2 cases and they're solid Best cases for dust I've ever owned. Cant speak to the RGB fans but the non-RGB fans are more than enough for am4 + 3090 builds. Fan controller is surprisingly good.
I feel as were moving into the digital home age of home surveillance systems, IOT devices, smart homes, Plex servers and redundancy systems etc, that home Servers will become the norm as a kitchen, a front door or toilet 🚽 to name a few.
Hi Wendell, I'm looking at scaling down from 2x 290x and a 1350w power supply (don't ask) and just curious if the failure potential of a HDD is increased if the drive is always on in a system? ie spin up each time I want to find something? How often do those drives 'sleep'? Considering if I should shuck a drive or keep it external for backing up.
Going to add another config for anyone curios: 5600G, Asus TUF B550-Plus, 32GB 3200 DDR4, Seasonic Focus PX-550, three running fans and two spun down hard drives nets 19W idle power, the hard drives running add 10W. Take a 5650G instead and with that you could have ECC too
I'd love to see a longer discussion on ECC memory. For example, how exactly is ZFS "weakened" by not having it - if at all, that is? Does ZFS assume that system memory will always "tell the truth", and if that assumption is broken then bad things could _theoretically_ happen? Or is it able to notice if bits get flipped when they shouldn't, somehow? Is there an article about this somewhere? I guess what I'm wondering is whether the "don't worry too much about ECC" mentality is more based on how rare severe memory errors are, or on them usually having low/no impact when they do end up happening. Or something else entirely? Also, is there even statistically significant data on this? Are there any larger datacenters that don't use ECC memory anywhere (and without other special mitigation strategies to make up for that), and haven't had any issues with that? I suppose that most memory sticks are either going to be so faulty that it's going to be apparent very quickly (and then a backup of the data can be restored after replacement), or it will run so well that errors will just be very rare? What usually happens when memory ages? Is there a chance that the rate of errors increases with age? Or does memory usually still work just as well until it then just dies entirely right away? I remember a rant by Linus Torvalds about Intel's lackluster ECC support, and it seemed he considers ECC very important, even for more "mainstream" users (as opposed to datacenters and the like). So I'm still kind of worried about foregoing it. Am I unreasonably worried?
Fully agree. I want to build a small form factor box that I use as a storage server. And after looking at the prices for ITX Mainboards that have ECC support and also a lot of SATA connectors - damn, thats pricy. Would really like to know how important ECC actually is when using it with ZFS. I personally would prefer to have the ECC support, especially when dealing with backups of sensitive data it seems like not having it is a bad idea.
@@dominikheinz2297 if you want if you have doubts, go for ecc. It’s not gon be that much expensive. You just have to find a board that supports ecc. At this time and age, it’s gon be am4 platform. Search for USED UNBUFFERED ddr4 ecc. Don’t worry about sata too. Search for USED pcie HBA controller. I just bought another pair of ecc udimm 2x32 @3200mhz for less than normal ddr4 2x32 price. And for the HBA, I paid 20 bucks for an ancient enterprise gear. Only thing you have to wrong is pcie slots. Coz you’re not gonna have any left for gpu, if you go itx board. The HBA gon take a x4 pcie.
Pretty cool! I've got the budget in my electric bill so I went with dual Xeon procs from an older generation, 20c/40t and 128gb ram gives me a lot of room to play around with for VMs and such. I definitely need to re-architect it a bit though, I started with Ubuntu Server and it's not particularly crash resistant as I have it set now. One day, maybe 🤷♂. Another note is that I've been loving these Fractal Design cases. The Meshify 2 XL was great for my gaming rig and the Define 7 XL really kills it for my server. Super quiet (especially with some Noctua fans) even with these dinosaur CPUs in it.
Why doesn't the lack of ECC bother you, assuming this is going to be used on ZFS? There seems to be a lot of different takes on this matter, ZFS devs strongly suggest ECC, and Linus Torvalds even insists using it on his workstation/desktop computer. There seems to be a lot of urban legends considering this, could you test it somehow (e.g. letting ZFS run 24-7 with and without ecc and see whether it will result in corrupted files).
Got the fractal s2 which is the tinted version, great case for airflow, easy cable management and even hdd mounting that made my loud ass drive inaudible.
Been torn between getting one of these Supermicro or ASRock systems, doing an i3 or R3, or getting a 25-45W TDP Xeon. Also torn between doing 5ish 4TB platters or just doing a couple 4TB SATA SSDs. I've kind of wanted to use my old Dark Base Pro 900 rev.2 since it's got lots of drive cages and noise dampening foam, but kinda realising there are so many options for smaller units and I don't know which route to pick anymore
Seems like the nas I parted together. 3200g 16GB DDR4 Gigabyte b450 m motherboard 3*10Seagate barracuda pro(cmr) drives in a raidz. Running Plex and pfsense as a VM.
So theoretically, I could basically have a Windows Pro or Windows Server system (or Fedora or Ubuntu Linux), use a built-in RAID 1 or 10 (or use ZFS or Storage Spaces), use an Azure VPN to perform an occasional image backup of the OS (and maybe file transfers too), and use an external backup drive for a decent backup solution.
Very low power servers, that has my interest. I built a ~20 watt machine with old parts and a modern power supply but it's a very low performance, 10 year old AMD. I wish I had better hardware for it.
My server is an old Dell optiplex with a intel i3 9100 and two seagate ironwolf mechanical drives plus NVME. It idles at 20 watts running nextcloud and some media serving. Average load of 0.30 while streaming music stays at low 20 watts. I don't have all the reliability or overhead power, but you can't beat the cost.
Is there a good way to benchmark CPUs for these applications? My current home server has a 2950X and I enjoy having the RAM and threads that TR brings but I also feel that it's wasting energy and I would get just as much benefit from something like a 5600X or 5700X. Not like I'm running 10 VMs, just plex, some game servers, and some monitoring tools in docker containers.
It is a sore spot for me that low wattage power supply with higher than 80+ gold are basically unobtanium (they exist on the certification list, but they are all OEM and the manufacturers do not sell directly to consumers)
@@tobiwonkanogy2975 yep. I'm talking bog standard ATX. My 1800x with quad intel gigabit NICs, dual broadcom 10G-baseT, two hard drives, one NVME and one sata SSD uses less than 60 watts greater than 90% of the time. Would love a 80+ platinum 250w PSU, even if tfx
I have a bunch of old enterprise gear, dell r620's, r320's and a r420. I also have a couple of diy servers build by me. Power consumption wise building new is a clear winner, but if you look at purchase cost, diy cost 5-10 times more. Every time I start adding up parts to diy match one of my r620's I end up close to $1000 and I paid $150 for my r620's (each).
I also run a few old HP enterprises servers but electricity prices have tripled last year so unfortunately I think the calculation is completely changed.
I have the 10g MATX version of -this board- an asrock rack X470, paired with a Ryzen 7 Pro 4750GE out of an HP, plus 128GB of ECC. The first machine i bought with a 4750GE i got from Lenovo but it had PSB enabled by default meaning i couldnt use the 4750GE in any other motherboard brand other than lenovo, that was a fun discussion with Patrick from Serve The Home, but at least he was able to get the word out.
Been following this home server series. this does help in getting some answers in my case. I have been thinking about building new home lab setup and upgrading custom router with either old enterprise grade server n storage I got for free or build something completely new. Thank L1T team :)
Me too. I came here for the builds, but got a bunch of over detailing on ECC, etc. I understand the value of the details, but this could be a series of 4 videos. One for matching the builds in terms of power, performance and cost, and 3 videos in depth for the pros and cons of each build. Instead I found myself skipping a lot for 30m. Wendell would get more viewer engagement, if he split is knowledge properly
My home server is a Ryzen 7 2700X machine, this plus a 16 Port PoE Switch, PoE AP, 3x PoE Cameras the entire setup pulls 170W idle. There's 5x 4TB HDDs, a 40W Nvidia P620, Intel I350T4, H710P Raid Card, 128GB Ram + 7 fans seems to all add up little by little. I'd love something with this grunt in a < 50W package really. Cost of electricity is rising, peak is currently 49c, offpeak is 12c, shoulder is 20c. This is all increasing 20% in the next month too, so power savings for most will be starting to happen.
@7:20 Just so I get this right, the spinning down tip for the 20TB drives, is based on placing the metadata on a m2 stick? Was looking for the link to the howto but don't see it listed (yet)
Talking about ECC, I seen mushkin selling nvme,ssd with error correction, doesn't seem to be a feature in most brands. Cool video, I seen that motherboard and supermicro, for the price it's not bad, roughly the price of a mid range pc build with mid range GPU but for serving and protect files separately and host. 40 watt at idle while hosting it's perfect.
Any server idles at 35w's if you never plug a power measurement device into it. I'm sure my ivy bridge-E with 24 hdd's, 3 ibm m1115's and and x540 nic idles at 35w. yep.
Would LOVE to see some power numbers from the old enterprise gear to compare to these. But knowing that I'm not bad on power draw with that ASRock X470 board is making me feel even better about buying it.
Great video! I have an ancient Athlon II x4 610e with 8GB DDR2 RAM, hardware RAID with LSI 9267-8i and 2 Hitachi 4TB mirrored HDDs (best reliability according to Backblaze reports) and a 128GB system SSD running Ubuntu server 20.04 with Nextcloud, a couple of containers and a few gimmicks. This thing rarely goes over 2GB of RAM, disks are at about 1Gbit LAN/broadband speed I have at home and the CPU only gets pegged when indexing really. It can still stream movies via Nextcloud no prob. Whole setup has set me back less than €200, as I bought 2 HDDs at reasonable €65 a pop and upgraded cooling and RAM (€10 Aliexpress job). This still uses very little electricity as the CPU is 45w. I would love to have a 12400 with 64GB DDR5, 2x20TB HDDs and a few 1TB NVMEs or a 12 core monster Ryzen, but that costs like literally thousands of € and for that price, instead of virtualisation I can get a few cheap €100 Dell workstations for experimenting which do not have to be running 24/7 and still have plenty of € for electricity bills left. On the top of that those second hand PCs will not go to the landfill anytime soon.
Wait a minute. I just bought one last week. It didn’t come with these accessories like HD bracket. Manual indicate its extra and will have to be purchased on their site.
There is a ton of informations but I'm watching this clip 4th time and I still don't know what model of ryzen motherboard is. Please provide more links in the description.
same I am going through the playlist as I try to figure out how to run a few home security camera system that stores and run on a server I can access on my phone.
I built a 2u rack mount with a Ryzen pro 2400ge. The ge is 45 watt tdp and supports ecc udimms. I added a 2.5gbe card and a sas card. I use the 1gbe for my kid's Minecraft server vm and the 2.5gbe is for my NAS vm. It works extremely well with truenas scale. There are quite a few consumer motherboards that do support ecc udimms. And my case will fit a large number of 2.5" drives for storage.
Definitely looking at the DeskMeet due to this vid, thx! I’m a bit confused by 17:02 though. What is the reason for using a PCIe slot adapter for the NVMe instead of the two onboard M.2 slots? Wouldn’t that have opened up the x16 slot for a NIC?
Oh man, that is one ancient Dell monitor, it's a power hog as well, also screen surface gets super hot in unconditioned environment (like pavement hot on a hot day in Europe like today)
hi @level1Techs I can't find any info about the motherboard you showed here. you dont indicate the model in description. i checked the video transcript but i can't see as well. maybe i missed it. can you please tell me the motherboard model and number? thank you.
I used to mine monero on Ryzen's and the IO die can consume a surprising amount of power. The difference between Infinity Fabric clock 1800Mhz (to support DDR 3600 at 1:1) at say 1.1v, and a more conservative 1200Mhz (for DDR 2400 at 1:1) at 0.9v is huge, a difference of 15W, at idle! You can normally see this in Ryzen Master. You will need to tune your IF clock / IO voltage and Memory speed to get ultra low idle power on Ryzen.
This is really good info. I want to build something to replace a couple of ageing Synology NAS's and an HP G8 Microserver. I'm considering Ryzen 7 Pro on Asrock X570 in a rackmount case.
Curious do ssd really have a longer life that spinning drives, asking because I have some spinning drives that are over 20 years old and still running. I have had a few ssd's fail with no warning at all because they are silent. Just a question. thanks for all the great info.
Not only do they fail suddenly, but performance is worse. I just watched a review of one that claimed an endurance of 2960 TB written over five years. That's only 150 Mbps. Five minutes a day at the claimed maximum write speed. Current 10k and 15k drives are guaranteed for any workload. There are very few dual host NVMe but every SAS drive has two ports. And nobody knows what an SSD will do when power is lost during a write.
@@shanent5793 "And nobody knows what an SSD will do when power is lost during a write." I thought more expensive (especially enterprise tier, I would assume) SSDs had capacitors to ensure that the data from the RAM cache is still written to the actual flash on power loss? I don't know if there's a standard for it, though.
I was thinking about upgrading my home server to modern platform. However the saving it'd make won't justify the cost. That's why I'm sticking with my core i7 4790 for now. I'm using Zerotier as the VPN to access the home server. There are issue with iOS, but it's working ok I think.
I'm looking to do media server Plex, emby or jellyfin. I have an old am3+ system with fx 4350 CPU 16gb ddr3 ram and gtx 950. Should I use this or build new system from scratch?
I have a ryzen 2600 and i was checking for any review that talked about power savings between the new one , and the heat they produced but no one compares one to another, just for my plex server. i think at this time my only concern is to be able to play at max 2 4k movies at the same time, and i think i could be saving some bucks on eletricity but don't want to spend money on that new cpu
Damn, how do you get ~10W idle out of a ryzen system? I can not get my very bare bone and undervolted 4650G and 5700G (B550) to run significantly below 20W@wall even without hdd. The lowest i have ever seen was like 18W. And yes very efficient PSU @ low idle current and all unnecessary junk disabled...
I've tried IPsec/msCHAP/strongSwan and wireguard for android, neither seems to be able to pass or even block multicast traffic originating from the device. Are any VPNs capable of doing so? Is it any different on iPhone? Android says all traffic will go through the VPN but it still spams the local access LAN with mDNS and service discovery packets.
i already have the 470 motherboard. i orgionally paored it with an old 2700x but i could never make it not guzzle electic. as the 3900 or 5900 are basically impossible for me to get hold of would something like the 5600 be ok for an unraid server (set to sleep as often as possible) that has a windows vm for occasional gaming and docker containers. i need to cut idle sleep power to an absolute minimum due to living off grid
i wanna get an asrock deskmeet but i cant decide between the intel version with a 12600k or the amd version with a 5700g. the intel one is about 100 euro's more.
just bough a pentum g4560 with an itx motheroboard for lest than 40 euros, idles at 19-20w with an cheap sdx psu, but hoping to get it down to 10 with a picopsu
10:53 I wouldn’t call the experimental stuff I’m doing cheat codes, I just want to use the best of both worlds, Consumer & Enterprise. Even if hypothetically speaking cost were irrelevant neither world offers the “perfect experience” forcing you to split tasks into multiple systems even if the hardware of one system is absolutely powerful enough :)
I just wish plex hardware transcoding with AMD APU's + Linux wasn’t so far behind Intel/NVidia, otherwise I would jump onto the AMD home server build in a heartbeat. (not a fan of using a dedicated GPU just for plex transcoding when Intel's quicksync is so dam good and so cheaply available)
It's a pity that TrueNAS Core doesn't really have great support for Alder Lake CPUs due to the big.LITTLE design and FreeBSD hasn't caught up to that architecture yet.
@@Blacklands I forget. I'll have to re-read the TrueNAS forum threads again to be able to answer that, but it seems to be highly experimental at this stage. I think someone mentioned that the support should be better in TrueNAS 13, and then it was released, but I don't know if other people have commented or contributed to the knowledge base with their experiences, so the concensus seems to be "try at your own risk"?
Hey Randall, I disagree strongly on ECC not being critical. ECC is crucial for system stability. Bit flips are fact and they occur in OS memory space too. They are cause for more system hangs than sysadmins would like to admit. Computer that you power off daily will get memory hard refreshed anyway so bit flips will "disappear". But for system that will be on 24/7, ECC is a must. Either that or be ready to have that 2am call to go reset the server.
Thank you for awesome content.
This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for lately! Thank you L1T!
Happy to help!
i swear they saw the conversation on the last super micro video about this exact subject
Keep up the good work! I'm watching this as I'm trouble shooting my NAS that won't post
ayyy you're ok! glad to see ya around after all these years!
@@TheWilldrickthanks and nice pfp =)
Get that sorted? Take it down to 1 stick ram, no drives, remove any OC (shouldn't be on a NAS but just sayn)... May have to reset the BIOS... some mobos have dual bios selected with jumper, if yours has two, try the other bios... good luck
Email me if you want :)
@@Real-Name..Maqavoy Wait RGB doesn't make it go faster?
Thank you for emphasizing that ECC is not really a big deal. I'm tired of seeing hardliner comments on every home server video saying ECC is required, as if we can all just double the budget for our mobo, RAM and CPU out of thin air.
To go for Registered ECC it is probably double, but Unbuffered is possible on some consumer motherboards, you only pay a little extra for the RAM. ASRock does this, I have a B550 Steel Legend with a 5800x and 32GB of 3200MHz Unbuffered ECC. You have to do some extra research and digging to find the products, but it's possible.
I went down this road about 5 years ago and ended up with a Supermicro MBD-X10SDV-TLN4F-O, with the embedded 1541SOC chip, 64gigs ram and SSDs. One spinner for backups. This has been my home server/testbed, and even with a T350-T4 Intel ethernet card and 7 drives, it runs on average in the mid 90s watts, running 6 servers in ESXI. Saved me a bunch in energy bills vs my prior builds where the chip alone would pull that... and doesn't heat the room up in summer. My Truenas is another supermicro, a MBD-X10SAE-O that I just put a used Pentium G3220T in, replacing an 85w TDP XEON- it's only serving files to 2 people so the XEON was a bit much... Next year I plan updating both... hence I am watching...
Set up my first pfsense router last week. Inspired by your channel of course. Now a server? More gear? Heck Yeah! Thanks for all you do!
Was it a "forbidden" router? ;) (ie on a VM)
This video has so much valuable content in it. So many great ideas I used to create something from parts I had to make a low powered high performance NAS. TY L1 team
I’m quite happy with the intermediary stage of old Xeon E3 systems because my needs are fairly light and the power consumption on that platform is quite reasonable.
Awesome video Wendell and the team at Level1!
I built a similar NAS some time ago using a 10400T (low power 6c/12t), and 3x 5tb Seagate 2.5" drives, and an NvME.
Jam all of that into an Inwin Chopin case, and you've got 3.3L of low power; silent; and tiny NAS goodness running TrueNAS SCALE and a RAIDZ1 array. For anyone wondering, I had to design/3d print a custom holder for the 3x 15mm thick drives... otherwise you can only fit 2x 15mm drives at a squeeze.
Currently in the process of figuring out how to fit a Mellanox MCX311 card into it (10GbE goodness!)... I think i'm going to need a custom/angled riser.
I love my low power silent Ryzen TrueNAS system. Based around the asrock rack x570 (matx - 2X 10GBe), Ryzen 9 5900 (OEM - 65W) running at 45W ECO mode, and 128GB ecc 3200mhz ddr4. Passively cooled, to boot.
Were you able to verify that ECC is indeed enabled and working correctly? If so, can TrueNAS check that natively, or did you use something else?
I also read that Ryzen (non-Pro) can sometimes claim that ECC is enabled when it actually isn't. So I wonder if you basically have to inject errors (which afaik isn't easy) to check if it _actually_ corrects/detects errors.
@@Blacklands Yes! ECC is working, I verified using memtest (the pro version that validates ECC)
@@linuxpirate Cool! Thanks for the update on that.
Just “downgraded” my home setup from a Ryzen 3700x/64GB/Asrock rack 470d4u to a NUC8i7BEH with 64 gig. Power was about 100w now tops out at around 40w. Still runs Proxmox 7 and all my home essentials including a VM loaded with Docker containers. Keep in mind I do have a Synology NAS for data storage. The power savings really is what drove me to it. So far, so good! Loving the low power home series videos, Wendell! Looking forward to what W680 and Raspberry Pi 5 will bring.
You probably could have got similar results installing a 5650GE or 5750GE in your old motherboard. Those are 35W TDP chips but perform pretty close to the regular Ryzen 5000 chips.
I really want to know what the heck happened with W680 - Supermicro is the only retailer with boards available to consumers (AFAIK), as I cannot find the GIGABYTE/ASRock boards anywhere.
Xeons were seemingly planned but not even launched so Intel had to support ECC on (some) consumer CPUs.
It seems daft, as a 12500 or 12600K + a hypothetical W680 Vision/Creator/WS/whatever else would've been the perfect middle ground for a lot of people, as the 500€ required for the X13SAE are... a bit much, for most people, even if I'm sure it's a fantastic board.
The new Octo-core Atom Xeons have some extra punch, with very low power draw at idle. They are soldiered to the motherboard, but will last a decade. They can have ECC ram, 10G/s Lan, 1x PCIe slot, 2x SAS plugs for 8 drives and a couple of SATA plugs. Just those thing alone are what we need for a home server.
Can you post a link? Would like to investigate this
Three in the front and one in the rear… now that’s a great Saturday night!
perfect sponsor.
Own 3 of the meshify 2 cases and they're solid
Best cases for dust I've ever owned.
Cant speak to the RGB fans but the non-RGB fans are more than enough for am4 + 3090 builds.
Fan controller is surprisingly good.
I feel as were moving into the digital home age of home surveillance systems, IOT devices, smart homes, Plex servers and redundancy systems etc, that home Servers will become the norm as a kitchen, a front door or toilet 🚽 to name a few.
Hi Wendell, I'm looking at scaling down from 2x 290x and a 1350w power supply (don't ask) and just curious if the failure potential of a HDD is increased if the drive is always on in a system? ie spin up each time I want to find something? How often do those drives 'sleep'? Considering if I should shuck a drive or keep it external for backing up.
"I have rambled enough" he says. Wronged words have never been spoken.
Going to add another config for anyone curios:
5600G, Asus TUF B550-Plus, 32GB 3200 DDR4, Seasonic Focus PX-550, three running fans and two spun down hard drives nets 19W idle power, the hard drives running add 10W. Take a 5650G instead and with that you could have ECC too
I'd love to see a longer discussion on ECC memory.
For example, how exactly is ZFS "weakened" by not having it - if at all, that is? Does ZFS assume that system memory will always "tell the truth", and if that assumption is broken then bad things could _theoretically_ happen? Or is it able to notice if bits get flipped when they shouldn't, somehow? Is there an article about this somewhere?
I guess what I'm wondering is whether the "don't worry too much about ECC" mentality is more based on how rare severe memory errors are, or on them usually having low/no impact when they do end up happening. Or something else entirely? Also, is there even statistically significant data on this? Are there any larger datacenters that don't use ECC memory anywhere (and without other special mitigation strategies to make up for that), and haven't had any issues with that?
I suppose that most memory sticks are either going to be so faulty that it's going to be apparent very quickly (and then a backup of the data can be restored after replacement), or it will run so well that errors will just be very rare?
What usually happens when memory ages? Is there a chance that the rate of errors increases with age? Or does memory usually still work just as well until it then just dies entirely right away?
I remember a rant by Linus Torvalds about Intel's lackluster ECC support, and it seemed he considers ECC very important, even for more "mainstream" users (as opposed to datacenters and the like). So I'm still kind of worried about foregoing it. Am I unreasonably worried?
Fully agree. I want to build a small form factor box that I use as a storage server. And after looking at the prices for ITX Mainboards that have ECC support and also a lot of SATA connectors - damn, thats pricy. Would really like to know how important ECC actually is when using it with ZFS. I personally would prefer to have the ECC support, especially when dealing with backups of sensitive data it seems like not having it is a bad idea.
@@dominikheinz2297 if you want if you have doubts, go for ecc. It’s not gon be that much expensive.
You just have to find a board that supports ecc. At this time and age, it’s gon be am4 platform.
Search for USED UNBUFFERED ddr4 ecc.
Don’t worry about sata too. Search for USED pcie HBA controller.
I just bought another pair of ecc udimm 2x32 @3200mhz for less than normal ddr4 2x32 price.
And for the HBA, I paid 20 bucks for an ancient enterprise gear.
Only thing you have to wrong is pcie slots. Coz you’re not gonna have any left for gpu, if you go itx board. The HBA gon take a x4 pcie.
That x470 board is 400 new on ebay, the 2t variety is
i would love to see an updated version of this. thank you.
Hell yeah thank you so much! I have been using Tailscale and seeing you use it confirmed my non-IT expert decision making! Thank you 🥳
Pretty cool! I've got the budget in my electric bill so I went with dual Xeon procs from an older generation, 20c/40t and 128gb ram gives me a lot of room to play around with for VMs and such. I definitely need to re-architect it a bit though, I started with Ubuntu Server and it's not particularly crash resistant as I have it set now. One day, maybe 🤷♂. Another note is that I've been loving these Fractal Design cases. The Meshify 2 XL was great for my gaming rig and the Define 7 XL really kills it for my server. Super quiet (especially with some Noctua fans) even with these dinosaur CPUs in it.
Why doesn't the lack of ECC bother you, assuming this is going to be used on ZFS? There seems to be a lot of different takes on this matter, ZFS devs strongly suggest ECC, and Linus Torvalds even insists using it on his workstation/desktop computer. There seems to be a lot of urban legends considering this, could you test it somehow (e.g. letting ZFS run 24-7 with and without ecc and see whether it will result in corrupted files).
I've never heard anyone say "fire-breathing" that much in my entire life.
Got the fractal s2 which is the tinted version, great case for airflow, easy cable management and even hdd mounting that made my loud ass drive inaudible.
Been torn between getting one of these Supermicro or ASRock systems, doing an i3 or R3, or getting a 25-45W TDP Xeon. Also torn between doing 5ish 4TB platters or just doing a couple 4TB SATA SSDs. I've kind of wanted to use my old Dark Base Pro 900 rev.2 since it's got lots of drive cages and noise dampening foam, but kinda realising there are so many options for smaller units and I don't know which route to pick anymore
Seems like the nas I parted together.
3200g
16GB DDR4
Gigabyte b450 m motherboard
3*10Seagate barracuda pro(cmr) drives in a raidz.
Running Plex and pfsense as a VM.
So theoretically, I could basically have a Windows Pro or Windows Server system (or Fedora or Ubuntu Linux), use a built-in RAID 1 or 10 (or use ZFS or Storage Spaces), use an Azure VPN to perform an occasional image backup of the OS (and maybe file transfers too), and use an external backup drive for a decent backup solution.
Very low power servers, that has my interest. I built a ~20 watt machine with old parts and a modern power supply but it's a very low performance, 10 year old AMD. I wish I had better hardware for it.
My server is an old Dell optiplex with a intel i3 9100 and two seagate ironwolf mechanical drives plus NVME. It idles at 20 watts running nextcloud and some media serving. Average load of 0.30 while streaming music stays at low 20 watts. I don't have all the reliability or overhead power, but you can't beat the cost.
I'm using the Low Profile Sync Ninja in my home server. Only running an i7 8700 in my Lenovo M920s but it works. Great Video Wen Dizzle!!!
Is there a good way to benchmark CPUs for these applications? My current home server has a 2950X and I enjoy having the RAM and threads that TR brings but I also feel that it's wasting energy and I would get just as much benefit from something like a 5600X or 5700X. Not like I'm running 10 VMs, just plex, some game servers, and some monitoring tools in docker containers.
It is a sore spot for me that low wattage power supply with higher than 80+ gold are basically unobtanium (they exist on the certification list, but they are all OEM and the manufacturers do not sell directly to consumers)
There are the redundant kind at 500 watts and up for platinum . I guess the miners use some of them for smaller Asics. im not sure about lower
@@tobiwonkanogy2975 yep. I'm talking bog standard ATX. My 1800x with quad intel gigabit NICs, dual broadcom 10G-baseT, two hard drives, one NVME and one sata SSD uses less than 60 watts greater than 90% of the time. Would love a 80+ platinum 250w PSU, even if tfx
I have a bunch of old enterprise gear, dell r620's, r320's and a r420. I also have a couple of diy servers build by me. Power consumption wise building new is a clear winner, but if you look at purchase cost, diy cost 5-10 times more. Every time I start adding up parts to diy match one of my r620's I end up close to $1000 and I paid $150 for my r620's (each).
I also run a few old HP enterprises servers but electricity prices have tripled last year so unfortunately I think the calculation is completely changed.
The ECC notes makes me feel better about my recent choices.
I have the 10g MATX version of -this board- an asrock rack X470, paired with a Ryzen 7 Pro 4750GE out of an HP, plus 128GB of ECC. The first machine i bought with a 4750GE i got from Lenovo but it had PSB enabled by default meaning i couldnt use the 4750GE in any other motherboard brand other than lenovo, that was a fun discussion with Patrick from Serve The Home, but at least he was able to get the word out.
Finally, a focus on power usage.
Been following this home server series. this does help in getting some answers in my case. I have been thinking about building new home lab setup and upgrading custom router with either old enterprise grade server n storage I got for free or build something completely new. Thank L1T team :)
I find Wendell's videos often a little bit hard to follow. They could use a bit more structure and possibly preparation.
Me too. I came here for the builds, but got a bunch of over detailing on ECC, etc. I understand the value of the details, but this could be a series of 4 videos. One for matching the builds in terms of power, performance and cost, and 3 videos in depth for the pros and cons of each build. Instead I found myself skipping a lot for 30m.
Wendell would get more viewer engagement, if he split is knowledge properly
My home server is a Ryzen 7 2700X machine, this plus a 16 Port PoE Switch, PoE AP, 3x PoE Cameras the entire setup pulls 170W idle.
There's 5x 4TB HDDs, a 40W Nvidia P620, Intel I350T4, H710P Raid Card, 128GB Ram + 7 fans seems to all add up little by little. I'd love something with this grunt in a < 50W package really.
Cost of electricity is rising, peak is currently 49c, offpeak is 12c, shoulder is 20c. This is all increasing 20% in the next month too, so power savings for most will be starting to happen.
@7:20 Just so I get this right, the spinning down tip for the 20TB drives, is based on placing the metadata on a m2 stick? Was looking for the link to the howto but don't see it listed (yet)
Great YT! Is there somewhere I can grab a list of the components you're talking about? I can't keep up with what you're saying & doing, thank you.
Umm... 🤯
You are my home lab hero today.
Thank you
Talking about ECC, I seen mushkin selling nvme,ssd with error correction, doesn't seem to be a feature in most brands. Cool video, I seen that motherboard and supermicro, for the price it's not bad, roughly the price of a mid range pc build with mid range GPU but for serving and protect files separately and host. 40 watt at idle while hosting it's perfect.
Any server idles at 35w's if you never plug a power measurement device into it.
I'm sure my ivy bridge-E with 24 hdd's, 3 ibm m1115's and and x540 nic idles at 35w. yep.
Would LOVE to see some power numbers from the old enterprise gear to compare to these. But knowing that I'm not bad on power draw with that ASRock X470 board is making me feel even better about buying it.
Great video! I have an ancient Athlon II x4 610e with 8GB DDR2 RAM, hardware RAID with LSI 9267-8i and 2 Hitachi 4TB mirrored HDDs (best reliability according to Backblaze reports) and a 128GB system SSD running Ubuntu server 20.04 with Nextcloud, a couple of containers and a few gimmicks. This thing rarely goes over 2GB of RAM, disks are at about 1Gbit LAN/broadband speed I have at home and the CPU only gets pegged when indexing really. It can still stream movies via Nextcloud no prob. Whole setup has set me back less than €200, as I bought 2 HDDs at reasonable €65 a pop and upgraded cooling and RAM (€10 Aliexpress job). This still uses very little electricity as the CPU is 45w. I would love to have a 12400 with 64GB DDR5, 2x20TB HDDs and a few 1TB NVMEs or a 12 core monster Ryzen, but that costs like literally thousands of € and for that price, instead of virtualisation I can get a few cheap €100 Dell workstations for experimenting which do not have to be running 24/7 and still have plenty of € for electricity bills left. On the top of that those second hand PCs will not go to the landfill anytime soon.
Wait a minute. I just bought one last week. It didn’t come with these accessories like HD bracket. Manual indicate its extra and will have to be purchased on their site.
There is a ton of informations but I'm watching this clip 4th time and I still don't know what model of ryzen motherboard is. Please provide more links in the description.
same I am going through the playlist as I try to figure out how to run a few home security camera system that stores and run on a server I can access on my phone.
I built a 2u rack mount with a Ryzen pro 2400ge. The ge is 45 watt tdp and supports ecc udimms. I added a 2.5gbe card and a sas card. I use the 1gbe for my kid's Minecraft server vm and the 2.5gbe is for my NAS vm. It works extremely well with truenas scale. There are quite a few consumer motherboards that do support ecc udimms. And my case will fit a large number of 2.5" drives for storage.
Definitely looking at the DeskMeet due to this vid, thx! I’m a bit confused by 17:02 though. What is the reason for using a PCIe slot adapter for the NVMe instead of the two onboard M.2 slots? Wouldn’t that have opened up the x16 slot for a NIC?
I'm glad to see the Pentium really coming back... Ecc too?!
I guess I can pull that trigger now.
Oh man, that is one ancient Dell monitor, it's a power hog as well, also screen surface gets super hot in unconditioned environment (like pavement hot on a hot day in Europe like today)
hi @level1Techs I can't find any info about the motherboard you showed here. you dont indicate the model in description. i checked the video transcript but i can't see as well. maybe i missed it. can you please tell me the motherboard model and number? thank you.
Fractal really makes good cases!
I used to mine monero on Ryzen's and the IO die can consume a surprising amount of power. The difference between Infinity Fabric clock 1800Mhz (to support DDR 3600 at 1:1) at say 1.1v, and a more conservative 1200Mhz (for DDR 2400 at 1:1) at 0.9v is huge, a difference of 15W, at idle! You can normally see this in Ryzen Master.
You will need to tune your IF clock / IO voltage and Memory speed to get ultra low idle power on Ryzen.
This comes at a great time, when my electric bill has septupled, I've even turned to spinning down the spinning rust, I guess err stationary rust?
This is really good info. I want to build something to replace a couple of ageing Synology NAS's and an HP G8 Microserver. I'm considering Ryzen 7 Pro on Asrock X570 in a rackmount case.
Curious do ssd really have a longer life that spinning drives, asking because I have some spinning drives that are over 20 years old and still running. I have had a few ssd's fail with no warning at all because they are silent. Just a question. thanks for all the great info.
Not only do they fail suddenly, but performance is worse. I just watched a review of one that claimed an endurance of 2960 TB written over five years. That's only 150 Mbps. Five minutes a day at the claimed maximum write speed. Current 10k and 15k drives are guaranteed for any workload. There are very few dual host NVMe but every SAS drive has two ports. And nobody knows what an SSD will do when power is lost during a write.
@@shanent5793 "And nobody knows what an SSD will do when power is lost during a write."
I thought more expensive (especially enterprise tier, I would assume) SSDs had capacitors to ensure that the data from the RAM cache is still written to the actual flash on power loss? I don't know if there's a standard for it, though.
Great video! What I would like to see is the Asrock DeskMeet X300 compared to these systems.
With the X300, you can use ECC Ram with the Ryzen processor.
Me: looks at her Intel Xeon E5-2697 v2. *cries a little*
I was thinking about upgrading my home server to modern platform. However the saving it'd make won't justify the cost. That's why I'm sticking with my core i7 4790 for now.
I'm using Zerotier as the VPN to access the home server. There are issue with iOS, but it's working ok I think.
Hi L1T, could you please tell me the model of the Ryzen 3900 motherboard you are using? (I think you mentioned it's a supermicro?)
Thank you for that excellent guide. What is your opinion on those epyc embedded 3000 systems for a nas /virtualzation build instead of a ryzen system?
Sorry, I didn't get the mobo reference for the ryzen build. Is it supermicro ?
Nice video. That 2.5 gbe NIC to the WiFi slot looks interesting. Do you have a link or name?
How about an Intel Atom? Looking at a Asrock C3558D4U. Mostly for file sharing, backups and serving vm disks.
What NIC speed do you plan to use?
@@MultiKokonutz 10g I'd say
Do you by any chance have a video on the server you have on your desk with the metal open mining frame case?
I'm looking to do media server Plex, emby or jellyfin. I have an old am3+ system with fx 4350 CPU 16gb ddr3 ram and gtx 950. Should I use this or build new system from scratch?
If only the Deskmeet were available here in 'Srayamate it would be awesome.
I have a ryzen 2600 and i was checking for any review that talked about power savings between the new one , and the heat they produced but no one compares one to another, just for my plex server. i think at this time my only concern is to be able to play at max 2 4k movies at the same time, and i think i could be saving some bucks on eletricity but don't want to spend money on that new cpu
Such a amazing helpful video thank you sir
So I just want to be clear about this. If I get the i7 12700 Intel chip and put it in the desk meet motherboard I can use ECC memory?
Damn, how do you get ~10W idle out of a ryzen system? I can not get my very bare bone and undervolted 4650G and 5700G (B550) to run significantly below 20W@wall even without hdd. The lowest i have ever seen was like 18W. And yes very efficient PSU @ low idle current and all unnecessary junk disabled...
this is the most fire breathing video
And to think I was happy to turn my 4790k and 32g of ram into a home server. Now I feel so small hahaha
This is a prosaic 🔖 moment. An uneventful moment
I've tried IPsec/msCHAP/strongSwan and wireguard for android, neither seems to be able to pass or even block multicast traffic originating from the device. Are any VPNs capable of doing so? Is it any different on iPhone? Android says all traffic will go through the VPN but it still spams the local access LAN with mDNS and service discovery packets.
i already have the 470 motherboard. i orgionally paored it with an old 2700x but i could never make it not guzzle electic. as the 3900 or 5900 are basically impossible for me to get hold of would something like the 5600 be ok for an unraid server (set to sleep as often as possible) that has a windows vm for occasional gaming and docker containers. i need to cut idle sleep power to an absolute minimum due to living off grid
i wanna get an asrock deskmeet but i cant decide between the intel version with a 12600k or the amd version with a 5700g. the intel one is about 100 euro's more.
Frankly, I would love to take that AMD system and put it in a 1U or 2U case. Because the power consumption is so low, it wouldn't need much fan noise.
just bough a pentum g4560 with an itx motheroboard for lest than 40 euros, idles at 19-20w with an cheap sdx psu, but hoping to get it down to 10 with a picopsu
If only the aspeed bmc were available as an add-in card....
Can you send it to me. I only have only have a Dell T7910 with 2x 2650 v3 with 128gb of ECC Ram. I think it uses like 250 at rest.
Can Ryan please do more linode one clicks?
but muh lanes
Going arm does not mean you can’t have perf.. there are some arm monsters out there
10:53 I wouldn’t call the experimental stuff I’m doing cheat codes, I just want to use the best of both worlds, Consumer & Enterprise. Even if hypothetically speaking cost were irrelevant neither world offers the “perfect experience” forcing you to split tasks into multiple systems even if the hardware of one system is absolutely powerful enough :)
How did you put two 20TB hard drives inside the deskmeet? I thought it only supports one 3.5" hard drive
that thing actually fits 3, check out the diagrams in the user manual
Which motherboards are these? I couldn't figure them all out.
Asrock Rack X470D4U
Backing up isn't really an answer to the problem - it's just a workaround for that thing which is broken.
What model is the ryzen motherboard?
$50 a month for 1TB?! Seems steep.
I just wish plex hardware transcoding with AMD APU's + Linux wasn’t so far behind Intel/NVidia, otherwise I would jump onto the AMD home server build in a heartbeat. (not a fan of using a dedicated GPU just for plex transcoding when Intel's quicksync is so dam good and so cheaply available)
Is the i3 better than something like the 5600g?
Thanks !!!
Can I use that 20 gb nas drive in my daily system to store media and stuff?
Yep sure can
It's a pity that TrueNAS Core doesn't really have great support for Alder Lake CPUs due to the big.LITTLE design and FreeBSD hasn't caught up to that architecture yet.
Does TrueNAS Scale have better support, given that it's based on Linux?
@@Blacklands
I forget.
I'll have to re-read the TrueNAS forum threads again to be able to answer that, but it seems to be highly experimental at this stage.
I think someone mentioned that the support should be better in TrueNAS 13, and then it was released, but I don't know if other people have commented or contributed to the knowledge base with their experiences, so the concensus seems to be "try at your own risk"?