I really admire the practice better youtubers engage in where instead of just taking and "transformatively using" the works of other tubers, they are citing the others, linking their viewers to the others, and avoiding copying the content of the others. It leads to better collaborations which benefit those of us seeking knowledge and entertainment, while reducing the number of comments that devolve into name-calling and insults. - In fact, I started watching this channel because of a link from another channel I also watch!
PLEASE CALL TODD!!! He will bang out 15 by lunch and have an automatic chakra throwing machine built in a week. This would be an awesome collab and right in his "weird weapons" wheelhouse.
Please do a collab with Tod on these. I can also imagine Tod getting obsessed with these and doing "Chakram Against Armor", "Giant Chakram", "Chakram Tossed By A Competitive Javelin Thrower Who Is Being Launched From A Trebuchet", and so on.
no, you're not thinking large enough, we clearly need to know if thrown pilums are a good defense for thrown chakra's or if it is better the other way around
Hey Matt, Totally awesome video, thank you for the shutout :) First of all in my opinion and years of using Chakram, Finger Spin Technique (Tajani) was used by only very few skilled Warriors in formation so its almost on level like we do trick shots with throwing knives today really nothing that would be used effective in combat by most soldiers! If you watch that video on Discovery channel again he only shows that finger spin technique but when he go for the penetration test he switch rightaway back to classic sidearm, so i would say Over hand technique and side arm were used 95 % of the time in combat you just dont have time put something on finger spin it and after throw it really makes no sense but like you said it has been done and deserve more exploring (You need lighter curved version for it for sure)! Otherwise this is brutal throwing weapon with insane penetration and yes 80-100 meters would be definitely possible i can throw it very accurate up to 30 meters (Head size target) so just for the long distance throw with over hand technique can be done by almost anyone with mimimum training, this thing sticks almost everytime. Btw I discovered that you can also throw Chakram from the stick and with that i believe we could achieve over 100 Meters easily :D
Thank you so much for this, I've been wondering about these and the finger spinning, thinking it can't be common usage or else maybe fingers weren't highly prized by Sikhs.
It is a "practice issue" imo. I have experimented with these quite a bit & i've found that once one gets the hang if it one can then release the chakram a lot cleaner & thus not throw off the flight. Similar to how a thumb draw on a bow string reduces string twist caused by 2 & 3 finger draw thereby reducing the influence it has on the flight of the arrow.
I imagine it's also good at being ready to throw, since you're generating spin ahead of time. For short range throws where the damage is being done by the spin of a sharp blade more than the forward speed, the release speed would be advantageous. Also... it's intimidating. I imagine that proper technique is about finger muscle development, not just skill.
HI Matt, Great video and these are weapons I have never played around with and I think that needs to change, so Matt, watch this space, I may have to not -surprise you with a weird weapon...... I also may be able to shed light on the slight dishing of some and the flat profile of others. When you make a single edged knife, particularly and long one, heat it and quench it often curves down toward the edge. The reason for this is that when the steel gets hot it expands and then when you quench it, it contracts, but the edge is thinner than the back so cools faster and contacts more than the slower cooling and thicker back. The thinner the edge before quenching the more pronounced this effect is. It is generally avoided to a noticeable degree by leaving the edge a couple of mm thick and grinding to finish edge after heat treatment. With a disc that is essentially a circular single edged blade, if you thin the outer edge to lets say 1mm before quenching, the outer edge will shrink more than the inner edge and so will cause the disc to dish. So the dishing could be deliberate and as you suggest will likely increase distance, but of course an up and a down face also may have some disadvantages and would make vertical throwing like Adam Celadin demonstrated more difficult. However it could also equally be accidental. Remember grinding away hardened steel (post heat treat) is much much slower than hammering and filing away annealed steel (before heat treat), so a smiths natural inclination is to thin the edge as much as possible before heat treat getting as close as possible to 'dishing thickness' as he could. This reduces the work as much as possible. However sometimes/often this target thickness will be missed and so it ends up dished and in fact if this either advantageous or at least not disadvantageous I would expect then to finish grind/file as thin as possible knowing that the end result will be fine. If it is left a bit thicker it comes out flat. Obviously I can't know if this hypothesis is correct, but I do know that very thin edges will naturally cause this without having to consciously shape it this way.
The Aerobie ring is a dangerous device in its own right. A coworker came in to the office in a leg cast one day because his daughter threw one to him and he jumped up to catch it, and landed badly.
@@scholagladiatoria absolutely we want to see this done. I mean testing the distance that you can throw one of these depending on the curvature of the blade. Airfoil? Even if it isn't with Todd, though I would much like it that it were, since I've been watching him for half a decade now, we all absolutely want to see this tested out
@@scholagladiatoria One other thing, I would be interested in seeing a short video on how to preserve the blades that you handle all the time. Obviously if you can you would use gloves, but you mentioned that you're going to have to oil that ring, what exactly is necessary to do to preserve the medal of these older metal smith creations
Also, the spinning around the finger thing is how it is most often depicted in art with reference to the deity Vishnu.. so definitely there is something deep/ancient to it.
I imagine there's a level of finger muscle development well beyond normal, before which it's just not very effective. A variation on "if you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather".
I mean if you give an amateur a pila you wouldn't expect them to be able to throw it accurately 40+ yards, but you wouldn't say it couldn't be done based on that.
I am daily use chakaram to decorate my turban but also help to protect my head by any attack , also use it for protection of my arms and also for throwing... Thanks to Guru Gobind Singh ji By giving this
Chakrams have been in use in India for thousands of years, Hindus invented it, not Sikhs - you will see Chakrams in the illustrations of Hindu deities.
@@SodiumSyndicate Sri Guru Gobind Singh introduced it to the Sikh path and made it a central weapon in our Sikh warrior identity and is one of the indicators of his nihang sikhs. A weapon which Sikhs proudly adorn to this day, this is why we give thanks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
As someone who uses slings, my guess would be that spinning it around isn't the best technique for power nor accuracy, but is a useful technique for keeping your opponent guessing. When I sling for distance or power or accuracy, I personally prefer a figure 8 motion, and know a lot of slingers who prefer a simple snap. But when I'm "sparring" (throwing tennis balls at each other, and sometimes we also have melee trainers), a helicopter spin is really good for keeping others from closing the distance.
The finger spin throw has quite a few advantages over the pinch throw when you are in a tight army formation, on top of a wall or tower, or on top of an elephant's carriage. The pinch grip needs a bigger wind-up space and more stability compared to the finger throw. The pinch grip might offer more power and distance, but the finger throw is more realiable for throwing from a tight spot like in the middle of a shock assault.
@@larsrademakers6070 Of course it's possible that it's more ceremonial than practical, but don't think it would be so well known in our culture if it didn't have at least a good amount of practical benefit. I doubt so many art works and depictions of gods would show a finger throw instead of something else if it didn't work decently at least.
I thought the whole point of Hinduism that essentially every kind of transcendental spiritual entity is a kind of "diety" or god figure in their own way?
@@Vlad_Tepes_IIIThe closer analogue to a demon in Hindu myth is an asura. Ogres have a rather vague identity in European literature and Ravana was among the most powerful rakshasas ever. Most of them were closer to humans in scope, human-like in physiology, and often are humans. The comparison is quite reasonable.
Multiple sized chakram worn down either arm and around the neck and on the head, being hurled and whipped around in multiple styles with deadly skill at will...has such real life anime energy and I love it...
Ravana was actually a Rakshasa. Rakshasas are a race of beings with various magical powers and abilities. The closest comparable thing would be the Japanese Oni. Lower Rakshasas were like Ogres, whereas the greatest of them, like Ravana, who was the king of the Rakshasas, had great powers comparable to deities like Indra, Vayu, etc or even greater.
@@anantasheshanaga3666 did you notice my username are two names for such? Thurs Eattin is the english word for giants like jotun in Norwegian like in Jotunheim ie home of giants. Eattinhome. Giant sounds very similar. Means ~eaters (of humans) Thurs is a Nordic word could mean thirsty, so gluttonuos & thirsty (for blood?). Tursar in plural, google translate can't translate it though. sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4tte
@@anantasheshanaga3666 piśāca? Lives in remote places & preys on humans. Sounds like Sasquatch. Shapeshifting is found in Nordic as well as in American Native belief systems. Loke could shapeshift to hide from Thor.
1. Definitely interested in a test video! 2. There is a finger throw technique for Frisbees too, so it doesn't surprise me that the finger spin would work.
What a shocking coincidence that you're uploading this video just now. Just two hours ago i searched for Chakram videos on your channel and found none. Life is kinda cool sometimes ...
Only advantage i can think of for the finger spin thing would be that as it spins, and you suddenly just launch it would not telegraph as much if you would throw it in more conventional way. Like matt mentioned having sword while off hand spins this i think would make it really difficult for your opponent to predict when its thrown
This is exactly the kind of high-quality, informative, entertaining, and captivating content that I have come to expect from a Matt Easton video! Well, done, sir! Cheers!
The finger spinning will impart a strong rotation so that when it's thrown, the edge velocity is higher than the mass velocity so it cuts easily on first contact and transfers more energy into the cut. If it was just Frisbee'd in then it wouldn't be as effective 😉
Hmm. Sharp edges? Aerodynamic? I see a great future in this regarding an about to emerge variation on Frisbee Golf perhaps as a Blood Sport ... unarmored. What fun. Cheers, Matt. Be well. And thank you for another great presentation.
Dude you should totally get in touch with Adam Celadin about these things. I'd love to see that Edit: Glad to see you thought of him as well! I hope to see a collab between you two!
Glad to see you discuss this topic. Chakrams are FUN! I have a chakram from India and a custom-made chakram from a Nepalese smith. The latter chakram is terrifying to me and I have never used it. So, if you're ever in the market for a custom chakram and you are braver than I am, I can definitely make you a recommendation.
Finally, someone talking about the Indian fighting tactics. They have always been known for their unique and extremely efficient fighting styles and weapons, but most people seem to gloss over it, or ignore it completely.
@1248dl it was mostly a reference to the show Xena. But I have heard of these being able to skip between opponents and if thrown en masse at a formation, I'm sure you'd get a few ricochets that you wouldn't get with say, a javelin.
I'm impressed by the level of engineering and craftsmanship required to create a disk that is uniformly shaped, balanced, and with the proper consistent curvature to create the right amount of lift. They must have been particularly effective if the people took enough time and labor to perfect the design to this level.
When throwing a Frisbee, the finger flip is one of the most powerful and long distance throws. It take a lot of practice to get it right, but it's very useful once you learn it. I would rarely spin it on my finger, but I could for effect.
I wonder if the spinning of the chakram was partially a way to pysche out and/or distract your enemy. Perhaps even a clear warning similar to a rattlesnake rattle or cobra's hood.
I also wonder if it's just a cool way to display the thing. I can imagine, before photography, painters drawing rugby or basketball players spinning the ball on their finger for a posed image because it looks cool even though there's no real application in a game. But I'd certainly be interested in seeing it tested a lot more.
a major bonus for a weapon like this is since the entire thing is a blade, it limits the potential other throwing weapons usually have with getting good points of contact and in so requires less training and accuracy. you really can just throw it underhand and get a decent amount of effectiveness with a fraction of the skill you would of needed with a throwing axe or throwing knife.
I clicked your video because I have one of the accessory kind you wear and wanted to learn more. Mine is HUGE like 10 inch radius. I can't imagine then because used as weapons but I threw it once for fun, and it flies farther far. When it hit the wooden target it left a nasty dent.
8 месяцев назад+1
One of the disadvantages of the "curved ones" is this : If you create lift, you also create drag. You don't have propulsion so you only have to forces : gravity and initial impulsion. So any force that will try to pull you "up" is a force that will not push you forward. You trade one for the other, like flaps on an airplane allow to fly slower and further while gliding, but precisely, the goal is to fly slower. (it's even at a point that there are max speed for different degrees of flaps, and if you engage thrust and try to fly over those limits, you can damage your flaps) So, curved ones may have a better trajectory (more straight, in all the dimensions for what it's worth) but it may also be slower at the end, since it traded it's horizontal speed for vertical speed. (or to avoid negative vertical speed at least) While the flatter one may be faster at the target (providing it has the same energy at the initial impulsion) but may be less easy to predict it's trajectory and may even go everywhere. That's an important trade-off. Almost the same than for arrows where you could theorically not add feathers at the end of arrows to avoid those to slow down, but you'll lose any sense of control and predictability of the trajectory. I suppose flat Chakram are not as radically unpredictable than arrows without feathers are, though If it were, it wouldn't exist.
Fun thing with it being in the Mahabharata, from discussions I've seen about the Hindi classics, the weapons and means of warfare used in them were already "old classics" at the time of their writing.
Theory- the weapon is spun up on the finger and contains energy in the rapid spinning - then is thrown forward with the arm. The weapon contains both forward and rotating energy. Both energies are delivered when it strikes and damages the target.
Also I would like to see how they work at distance. It seems like an expert user could thow one at a right or left arc, whigh is something you can't do with most other ranged weapons.
@@j3i2i2yl7 Totally agree. I would suggest Matt and Todd get together and see about recruiting an experienced "Frisbee" player, which may sound silly but there is a competitive sport and there are people who can throw frisbee very far and very accurately. There are also versions of the weapon without aerofoil, so it would be good to also see these tested, perhaps they are better for vertical throws or closer range, who knows until it is all tested properly!
Haha. Imagine a cavalry with thousands of chakrams charging at you and just after the chakram throw they drew their spears while you are struggling with the cuts and wounds and many one shot kills around you
VERY interesting video ! I didn't know much about this fascinating weapon. Now I'll go study. My personal, humble hypothesis (without actually knowing anything about the subject) about the "finger throw" advantages. 1 - throw power & spin speed: you have a tiny bit longer throwing lever (a little like a micro-atlatl) if you throw from the tip of the finger, and you probably can let it spin faster. The drawback in doing so is that it's probably more difficult to keep the desired alignment (mitigate by practice, but still) 2 - threat and deception. Like you pointed out, there are mentions of them being spun on one hand, while fighting with a blade on the other. Given that this would require an excellent coordination (again, practice...), it kind of makes sense that you keep the weapon always loaded and threatening, keeping your enemy under pressure. If released, even if the throw is not deadly (because of misalignment), it can still distract and force a response, creating space for an attack (much like a "shuriken" throw, if you will).
I’ve always loved the Chakram, so glad to see it’s getting the spotlight! I think it’s interesting that the spinning around the finger technique seems to be depicted as being used with the smallest sized chacram, presumably because it’s easiest. Perhaps there is a size point at which other throwing techniques become more effective? Either way it’s a formidable weapon in trained hands!
There's an Indian crown/ headdress in the V&A museum designed to look like a stack of golden Chakrams worn over a conical turban. The weapon obviously has a lot of cultural as well as military significance.
A modern example would probably be americans and revolvers. Is it the best weapon? No. Is it even the best at what it does? Usually no. But they dont care, like you said it's cultural and also looks badass.
I NEED one of those wizard hats of death.. even just wearing a big one like a necklace is so cool. Dudes are dripping with blades in some of the pictures.
So we actually use the air-o-bee toys when doing sparing practice’s because they are the safest we can get at a fair cost. They don’t quite behave the same as the steel ones sadly, and warp in the edge makes them fly all over.
I would imagine continually spinning it around the finger would give you a large inertial advantage, especially in areas where it may not be practical to swing your arm out that much. It looks like the throw from the finger can be completed in a much shorter motion, while retaining a large amount of inertial force thanks to spinning it around, which makes up for the lost leverage. It sounds practical in theory.
Awesome. I just ordered one! It's from a specialist Sikh store here in the UK which I have had decent kirpan from before, and they say that their "chakkars" as they refer to them, are made in Amritsar, the Sikh holy city in India. I won't give a link here as I don't know Matt's rules on that. Their full description is: "Sarbloh Pure Steel Sikh Singh Khalsa Dumala Chakari chakkar Dastar Ring Chakar".
I don't know whether this is true or a tiny bit of mythology surrounding chakram, but I remember seeing a history show that had another use for the chakram. The host of the show was interviewing Indian traditional martial artists (I think one was the man you specifically mentioned when talking about the finger spin) and they said the chakram was used in wrestling as well. They showed off pairs of bracelet sized chakram that were worn around the wrist, and they said that those were meant to use on opponents that tried to grapple them. Which would be a pretty vicious use for them, assuming that it isn't the Indian version of the Japanese katana myths. Though using a couple of razor sharp steel rings to rip up someone that tries to grab you does sound a lot more realistic than some of the whoppers surrounding katanas.
you should go into the tech of the chakram because making a steel ring with an edge and aerofiol that had to be hammered, because casting would make it brittle, in 500 BC is very impressive.
It would also make some sort of sense if the smaller ones were used as a last resort back up weapon, kind of like a bladed knuckle duster, and one would slash with it. Idk if they did that, but it makes sense
That was really interesting. One of those videos I had no interest in on the face of it,but here I am,16 odd minutes later, possessed of new knowledge. I appreciate your thoroughness and your ‘referencing’ of your other sources.
Great video as always Matt... could u perhaps talk on the topic of Indian armor form the 16 century and the armor compares to its European counter parts?
True Story: 1986 Campus of the University of Florida, my roommates and I snuck on to Florida Field (campus football stadium) and after tossing our Frisbees around, we decided to throw for distance from the goal line. I threw my 185 gram Frisbee 85 yards on my 1st try. We played Frisbee golf almost every evening.
the spinning on finger thing could also be useful in urban warefare as it would be like having an uzi (no need to cock arm back) while other weapons would be like rifles that take longer to throw.
When you think about how fast you can throw a frisbee, and the fact that you can wear it around your neck, the death disk always made sense to me. As an added bonus if you have that highli mitt or a disk thrower you can get some teal speed.
Cool, but I liked the spiked version better, which I saw in a book about antique weapons. Spikes should be more effective against enemies with thicker protective gear. This version also had a handle, like a suitcase.
What I'd really like to know is how they are made. How did they cast the metal and balance it so it would be useful? Compared to a sword a perfect circle would be particularly challenging.
100 meters? Probably more. I think the current world record in aerobie throwing is actually around 400 meters/ 1.300 feet. A modern aerobie is of course an aerodynamic masterpiece that flies better than most objects you can think of, but still. And a well made steel chacram could possibly be thrown at least 200 meters with high accuracy.
One likely reason for there being both flat and aero foil designs of the chakram is different throwing styles. The aero foil design can’t be thrown (effectively)vertically as the lift from the aero foil would cause it to veer left or right. The flat design also has the benefit that the user doesn’t have to worry about whether the correct side is facing up
I can see how the 2 types of shapes could be used differently. The curved one is like an airfoil and is very effective in horiontal throws to create lift. But is vertical throws it may sway to the side and a flat one would be better.
Just a stray thought; besides most likely being a viable method for throwing the chakram (as supported by evidense in both art and written sources), could the spinning be a way of distracting the opponent?.... by attracting his attention to the hand spinning the thing. Our eyes cannot help but look at movement, and if you have the skills to spin a chakram with one hand and wield a sword with the other, that might work...
Maybe the spinning works like a feint similar to other movements in martial arts? I can imagine the spin cover some of the telegraph of the actual throw, making it harder to time a block etc
I know it’s very different, but I’ve thrown arobees (I don’t remember how that’s spelled) with the finger twirl method and was able to throw it very strongly and accurately. I’d probably to be scared to actually tri it with a razor sharp chakram, but it seems very workable to me.
I'd love to see what a top end disc golfer could get out of one of these! The inside and outside throws (backhand/forehand) are standard throws and can be used with angles to get straight throws or curves left/right/s-curve. Theres several overhand throws that are less common but known (thumbers and tomahawks where the disc raises at an angle, flips to one side then pans to one or other side as it falls. Grenades a vertical underhand throw that angles high then falls vertically) etc.
Go to sponsr.is/cs_scholagladiatoria and use code SCHOLAGLADIATORIA to save 25% off today. Thanks to Curiosity Stream for sponsoring today’s video.
who knew that that would be the one thing from Xena Warrior Princess that was actually based in reality
Please put video on valari (Indian boomerang) used by tamils in Polygar rebellion against british
Please make some videos about Indian bows
I really admire the practice better youtubers engage in where instead of just taking and "transformatively using" the works of other tubers, they are citing the others, linking their viewers to the others, and avoiding copying the content of the others.
It leads to better collaborations which benefit those of us seeking knowledge and entertainment, while reducing the number of comments that devolve into name-calling and insults.
-
In fact, I started watching this channel because of a link from another channel I also watch!
It is pronounced as Chakra , Chakram or Chakkar as the Ch in " Change" .
Not as Shakram ( the Sh in Shake )
PLEASE CALL TODD!!! He will bang out 15 by lunch and have an automatic chakra throwing machine built in a week. This would be an awesome collab and right in his "weird weapons" wheelhouse.
LOL
This
Triple collab with Jörg Sprave!
@@Kopeksihe would make it really impractical, because he could and for no other reason
YES PLEEEEEAAAAAAASE
Please do a collab with Tod on these. I can also imagine Tod getting obsessed with these and doing "Chakram Against Armor", "Giant Chakram", "Chakram Tossed By A Competitive Javelin Thrower Who Is Being Launched From A Trebuchet", and so on.
no, you're not thinking large enough, we clearly need to know if thrown pilums are a good defense for thrown chakra's or if it is better the other way around
Javelin thrower? For chakram?
Get a professional frisbee golf or distance champ for that.
I want to upvote this for the javelin thrower launched from a trebuchet...
...but I also don't want to spoil the current 69 upvotes xD
@@a-blivvy-yus It was a good year. 😉
Hey Matt, Totally awesome video, thank you for the shutout :) First of all in my opinion and years of using Chakram, Finger Spin Technique (Tajani) was used by only very few skilled Warriors in formation so its almost on level like we do trick shots with throwing knives today really nothing that would be used effective in combat by most soldiers! If you watch that video on Discovery channel again he only shows that finger spin technique but when he go for the penetration test he switch rightaway back to classic sidearm, so i would say Over hand technique and side arm were used 95 % of the time in combat you just dont have time put something on finger spin it and after throw it really makes no sense but like you said it has been done and deserve more exploring (You need lighter curved version for it for sure)! Otherwise this is brutal throwing weapon with insane penetration and yes 80-100 meters would be definitely possible i can throw it very accurate up to 30 meters (Head size target) so just for the long distance throw with over hand technique can be done by almost anyone with mimimum training, this thing sticks almost everytime. Btw I discovered that you can also throw Chakram from the stick and with that i believe we could achieve over 100 Meters easily :D
Thanks Adam. I'd love to see more chakram content from you!
Thank you so much for this, I've been wondering about these and the finger spinning, thinking it can't be common usage or else maybe fingers weren't highly prized by Sikhs.
It is a "practice issue" imo. I have experimented with these quite a bit & i've found that once one gets the hang if it one can then release the chakram a lot cleaner & thus not throw off the flight. Similar to how a thumb draw on a bow string reduces string twist caused by 2 & 3 finger draw thereby reducing the influence it has on the flight of the arrow.
I imagine it's also good at being ready to throw, since you're generating spin ahead of time. For short range throws where the damage is being done by the spin of a sharp blade more than the forward speed, the release speed would be advantageous.
Also... it's intimidating.
I imagine that proper technique is about finger muscle development, not just skill.
Well at least there's Aerobies and Frisbees to practice safely with 🙃
HI Matt, Great video and these are weapons I have never played around with and I think that needs to change, so Matt, watch this space, I may have to not -surprise you with a weird weapon......
I also may be able to shed light on the slight dishing of some and the flat profile of others. When you make a single edged knife, particularly and long one, heat it and quench it often curves down toward the edge. The reason for this is that when the steel gets hot it expands and then when you quench it, it contracts, but the edge is thinner than the back so cools faster and contacts more than the slower cooling and thicker back. The thinner the edge before quenching the more pronounced this effect is. It is generally avoided to a noticeable degree by leaving the edge a couple of mm thick and grinding to finish edge after heat treatment. With a disc that is essentially a circular single edged blade, if you thin the outer edge to lets say 1mm before quenching, the outer edge will shrink more than the inner edge and so will cause the disc to dish.
So the dishing could be deliberate and as you suggest will likely increase distance, but of course an up and a down face also may have some disadvantages and would make vertical throwing like Adam Celadin demonstrated more difficult. However it could also equally be accidental.
Remember grinding away hardened steel (post heat treat) is much much slower than hammering and filing away annealed steel (before heat treat), so a smiths natural inclination is to thin the edge as much as possible before heat treat getting as close as possible to 'dishing thickness' as he could. This reduces the work as much as possible. However sometimes/often this target thickness will be missed and so it ends up dished and in fact if this either advantageous or at least not disadvantageous I would expect then to finish grind/file as thin as possible knowing that the end result will be fine. If it is left a bit thicker it comes out flat.
Obviously I can't know if this hypothesis is correct, but I do know that very thin edges will naturally cause this without having to consciously shape it this way.
The Aerobie ring is a dangerous device in its own right. A coworker came in to the office in a leg cast one day because his daughter threw one to him and he jumped up to catch it, and landed badly.
Excellent combat technique, she must have read Sun Tzu
I'd love to see a team up with Tod (and a skilled thrower maybe?) to test these out!
Yes I'll mention it to him.
@scholagladiatoria you know he'd be tempted to put it in the trebuchet!
Why all the attention for such a pointless weapon?
.
Get it? It's a circle, has no point, ergo "pointless'?
Ah, I'll go stand in the corner.
@@scholagladiatoria absolutely we want to see this done. I mean testing the distance that you can throw one of these depending on the curvature of the blade. Airfoil? Even if it isn't with Todd, though I would much like it that it were, since I've been watching him for half a decade now, we all absolutely want to see this tested out
@@scholagladiatoria One other thing, I would be interested in seeing a short video on how to preserve the blades that you handle all the time. Obviously if you can you would use gloves, but you mentioned that you're going to have to oil that ring, what exactly is necessary to do to preserve the medal of these older metal smith creations
Also, the spinning around the finger thing is how it is most often depicted in art with reference to the deity Vishnu.. so definitely there is something deep/ancient to it.
Yes, I absolutely agree. I don't know the reason, but I don't doubt at all that it was done a lot like that.
@@scholagladiatoria well, it seems like that's timing-dependent surprise attack. kinda like holding a bow stretched for a while
@@ExGen8holding a bow for a while is basically impossible past war bow draw weights...
I imagine there's a level of finger muscle development well beyond normal, before which it's just not very effective. A variation on "if you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather".
I mean if you give an amateur a pila you wouldn't expect them to be able to throw it accurately 40+ yards, but you wouldn't say it couldn't be done based on that.
There is always an apatite for high quality experimental archaeology videos👍
That should be appetite. Apatite is a phosphate mineral and forms in bone and teeth as well.
@@theeddorianpedent😂
@@theeddorianthis comment rocks!
@@julianshepherd2038did you intentionally misspell "pedant" just to piss them off more lmao
If India in the fifth century BC was anything like the aerobie craze of 1992, I bet many a Chakra was lost to a tree.
lol
I lost one on a relative's roof. They said they would get it down and return it to me, but they never did. 😠😂
I am daily use chakaram to decorate my turban but also help to protect my head by any attack , also use it for protection of my arms and also for throwing... Thanks to Guru Gobind Singh ji By giving this
Akaaloo
I wish wearing and carrying weapons is the norm in my culture. Sikhs got a good idea.
Chakrams have been in use in India for thousands of years, Hindus invented it, not Sikhs - you will see Chakrams in the illustrations of Hindu deities.
@@SodiumSyndicate Sri Guru Gobind Singh introduced it to the Sikh path and made it a central weapon in our Sikh warrior identity and is one of the indicators of his nihang sikhs. A weapon which Sikhs proudly adorn to this day, this is why we give thanks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji.
@@Soorma_9 That is true, he introduced it to the Sikh sect and made it a central weapon - but not invented it.
As someone who uses slings, my guess would be that spinning it around isn't the best technique for power nor accuracy, but is a useful technique for keeping your opponent guessing. When I sling for distance or power or accuracy, I personally prefer a figure 8 motion, and know a lot of slingers who prefer a simple snap. But when I'm "sparring" (throwing tennis balls at each other, and sometimes we also have melee trainers), a helicopter spin is really good for keeping others from closing the distance.
The finger spin throw has quite a few advantages over the pinch throw when you are in a tight army formation, on top of a wall or tower, or on top of an elephant's carriage. The pinch grip needs a bigger wind-up space and more stability compared to the finger throw. The pinch grip might offer more power and distance, but the finger throw is more realiable for throwing from a tight spot like in the middle of a shock assault.
Plus i would guess the finger thing would be more a high skill taunt (and maybe it was used for some ceremonies)
@@larsrademakers6070 Of course it's possible that it's more ceremonial than practical, but don't think it would be so well known in our culture if it didn't have at least a good amount of practical benefit. I doubt so many art works and depictions of gods would show a finger throw instead of something else if it didn't work decently at least.
There is definitely an appetite for that, Matt.
One correction Rāvaṇa is not a god but a Rākṣasa which can be related to an orge and not a god. Rāvaṇa was evil.
Wow, that's cool! I need to learn more, thanks.
Well, more like a demon than an ogre, because ogres are much weaker than what Ravan was.
I thought the whole point of Hinduism that essentially every kind of transcendental spiritual entity is a kind of "diety" or god figure in their own way?
@@Vlad_Tepes_IIIThe closer analogue to a demon in Hindu myth is an asura. Ogres have a rather vague identity in European literature and Ravana was among the most powerful rakshasas ever. Most of them were closer to humans in scope, human-like in physiology, and often are humans. The comparison is quite reasonable.
@@nevisysbryd7450 maybe more similar to a japanese Oni?
Indian military history is fascinating. Vijayanagar is probably my favourite large country to play in EU4. 🙂
Multiple sized chakram worn down either arm and around the neck and on the head, being hurled and whipped around in multiple styles with deadly skill at will...has such real life anime energy and I love it...
Ravana was actually a Rakshasa. Rakshasas are a race of beings with various magical powers and abilities. The closest comparable thing would be the Japanese Oni.
Lower Rakshasas were like Ogres, whereas the greatest of them, like Ravana, who was the king of the Rakshasas, had great powers comparable to deities like Indra, Vayu, etc or even greater.
Resar, troll & illvättar?
@@EattinThurs61Yes, lower Rakshasas can be comparable to trolls.
@@anantasheshanaga3666 did you notice my username are two names for such?
Thurs
Eattin is the english word for giants like jotun in Norwegian like in Jotunheim ie home of giants. Eattinhome. Giant sounds very similar.
Means ~eaters (of humans)
Thurs is a Nordic word could mean thirsty, so gluttonuos & thirsty (for blood?).
Tursar in plural, google translate can't translate it though.
sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A4tte
@@anantasheshanaga3666 piśāca? Lives in remote places & preys on humans. Sounds like Sasquatch. Shapeshifting is found in Nordic as well as in American Native belief systems.
Loke could shapeshift to hide from Thor.
His mother was a Rakshasa. But his father was a Sage.
1. Definitely interested in a test video!
2. There is a finger throw technique for Frisbees too, so it doesn't surprise me that the finger spin would work.
What a shocking coincidence that you're uploading this video just now. Just two hours ago i searched for Chakram videos on your channel and found none. Life is kinda cool sometimes ...
The universe aligns for you sometimes. 😊
Hah! How weird!
Only advantage i can think of for the finger spin thing would be that as it spins, and you suddenly just launch it would not telegraph as much if you would throw it in more conventional way. Like matt mentioned having sword while off hand spins this i think would make it really difficult for your opponent to predict when its thrown
Deception I think
Chakram really are one of the coolest weapons out there. India in general has so many banger weapons honestly.
This is exactly the kind of high-quality, informative, entertaining, and captivating content that I have come to expect from a Matt Easton video! Well, done, sir! Cheers!
Glad you enjoyed it!
The finger spinning will impart a strong rotation so that when it's thrown, the edge velocity is higher than the mass velocity so it cuts easily on first contact and transfers more energy into the cut.
If it was just Frisbee'd in then it wouldn't be as effective 😉
Hmm. Sharp edges? Aerodynamic? I see a great future in this regarding an about to emerge variation on Frisbee Golf perhaps as a Blood Sport ... unarmored. What fun.
Cheers, Matt. Be well. And thank you for another great presentation.
Dude you should totally get in touch with Adam Celadin about these things. I'd love to see that
Edit: Glad to see you thought of him as well! I hope to see a collab between you two!
Glad to see you discuss this topic. Chakrams are FUN! I have a chakram from India and a custom-made chakram from a Nepalese smith. The latter chakram is terrifying to me and I have never used it. So, if you're ever in the market for a custom chakram and you are braver than I am, I can definitely make you a recommendation.
Finally, someone talking about the Indian fighting tactics. They have always been known for their unique and extremely efficient fighting styles and weapons, but most people seem to gloss over it, or ignore it completely.
Hollywoor was fixated on East Asian martial arts.
Ho Eng Hui has Guinness world records for breaking coconuts with his finger. The human body can be conditioned to an amazing degree.
The way you handled the finger-spinning question was outstandingly respectful and classy. Much kudos to you, sir. Cheers.
I've heard that you can throw this weapon into a group of enemies and it will ricochet between them and hit everyone. It's super effective!
Interesting!
There are problems with that idea, loss of momentum at impact and deflection coming to mind first.
@@1248dl yeah, but that never happened in Xena.
@@1248dlI believe it's a tongue-in-cheek reference to how it's depicted in the TV show Xena Warrior Princess.
@1248dl it was mostly a reference to the show Xena. But I have heard of these being able to skip between opponents and if thrown en masse at a formation, I'm sure you'd get a few ricochets that you wouldn't get with say, a javelin.
I'm impressed by the level of engineering and craftsmanship required to create a disk that is uniformly shaped, balanced, and with the proper consistent curvature to create the right amount of lift. They must have been particularly effective if the people took enough time and labor to perfect the design to this level.
It has to be a testament to the high quality (and great abundance) of Indian steel where they made a weapon they actually threw away.
Spears, arrow(heads) etc. aso are steel that you throw away.
When throwing a Frisbee, the finger flip is one of the most powerful and long distance throws. It take a lot of practice to get it right, but it's very useful once you learn it. I would rarely spin it on my finger, but I could for effect.
I wonder if the spinning of the chakram was partially a way to pysche out and/or distract your enemy. Perhaps even a clear warning similar to a rattlesnake rattle or cobra's hood.
Yes, like shaking a spear above your head or banging a sword on a shield or rattling a sabre.
I also wonder if it's just a cool way to display the thing. I can imagine, before photography, painters drawing rugby or basketball players spinning the ball on their finger for a posed image because it looks cool even though there's no real application in a game. But I'd certainly be interested in seeing it tested a lot more.
a major bonus for a weapon like this is since the entire thing is a blade, it limits the potential other throwing weapons usually have with getting good points of contact and in so requires less training and accuracy. you really can just throw it underhand and get a decent amount of effectiveness with a fraction of the skill you would of needed with a throwing axe or throwing knife.
I am happy to see regular people who know their stuff become successful on RUclips.
I clicked your video because I have one of the accessory kind you wear and wanted to learn more. Mine is HUGE like 10 inch radius. I can't imagine then because used as weapons but I threw it once for fun, and it flies farther far. When it hit the wooden target it left a nasty dent.
One of the disadvantages of the "curved ones" is this :
If you create lift, you also create drag. You don't have propulsion so you only have to forces : gravity and initial impulsion. So any force that will try to pull you "up" is a force that will not push you forward. You trade one for the other, like flaps on an airplane allow to fly slower and further while gliding, but precisely, the goal is to fly slower. (it's even at a point that there are max speed for different degrees of flaps, and if you engage thrust and try to fly over those limits, you can damage your flaps)
So, curved ones may have a better trajectory (more straight, in all the dimensions for what it's worth) but it may also be slower at the end, since it traded it's horizontal speed for vertical speed. (or to avoid negative vertical speed at least)
While the flatter one may be faster at the target (providing it has the same energy at the initial impulsion) but may be less easy to predict it's trajectory and may even go everywhere.
That's an important trade-off. Almost the same than for arrows where you could theorically not add feathers at the end of arrows to avoid those to slow down, but you'll lose any sense of control and predictability of the trajectory.
I suppose flat Chakram are not as radically unpredictable than arrows without feathers are, though If it were, it wouldn't exist.
Fun thing with it being in the Mahabharata, from discussions I've seen about the Hindi classics, the weapons and means of warfare used in them were already "old classics" at the time of their writing.
Still, Guns >> Swords.
Xena the warrior princess intensifies 😂
Huge appetite for some experimental archeology! Honestly huge appetite for any content from you, Tod, Skallagrim, and any and all collaborations!
Theory- the weapon is spun up on the finger and contains energy in the rapid spinning - then is thrown forward with the arm. The weapon contains both forward and rotating energy. Both energies are delivered when it strikes and damages the target.
I would absolutely love to see these kinds of weapon tested properly, distance, penetration, damage, speed etc.
Skill Demonstration: m.ruclips.net/video/SJ1-5wtBTtQ/видео.html
Ancient techniques:
m.ruclips.net/video/xRck2DS2o_U/видео.html
Also I would like to see how they work at distance. It seems like an expert user could thow one at a right or left arc, whigh is something you can't do with most other ranged weapons.
@@j3i2i2yl7 Totally agree. I would suggest Matt and Todd get together and see about recruiting an experienced "Frisbee" player, which may sound silly but there is a competitive sport and there are people who can throw frisbee very far and very accurately. There are also versions of the weapon without aerofoil, so it would be good to also see these tested, perhaps they are better for vertical throws or closer range, who knows until it is all tested properly!
Spinning it around the finger has one very clear advantage: It looks super cool!
Haha. Imagine a cavalry with thousands of chakrams charging at you and just after the chakram throw they drew their spears while you are struggling with the cuts and wounds and many one shot kills around you
VERY interesting video ! I didn't know much about this fascinating weapon. Now I'll go study.
My personal, humble hypothesis (without actually knowing anything about the subject) about the "finger throw" advantages.
1 - throw power & spin speed: you have a tiny bit longer throwing lever (a little like a micro-atlatl) if you throw from the tip of the finger, and you probably can let it spin faster. The drawback in doing so is that it's probably more difficult to keep the desired alignment (mitigate by practice, but still)
2 - threat and deception. Like you pointed out, there are mentions of them being spun on one hand, while fighting with a blade on the other. Given that this would require an excellent coordination (again, practice...), it kind of makes sense that you keep the weapon always loaded and threatening, keeping your enemy under pressure. If released, even if the throw is not deadly (because of misalignment), it can still distract and force a response, creating space for an attack (much like a "shuriken" throw, if you will).
I’ve always loved the Chakram, so glad to see it’s getting the spotlight!
I think it’s interesting that the spinning around the finger technique seems to be depicted as being used with the smallest sized chacram, presumably because it’s easiest. Perhaps there is a size point at which other throwing techniques become more effective? Either way it’s a formidable weapon in trained hands!
I've played with one of these. They are more effective than I expected. It's a flying axe blade that's always going blade first.
There's an Indian crown/ headdress in the V&A museum designed to look like a stack of golden Chakrams worn over a conical turban. The weapon obviously has a lot of cultural as well as military significance.
A modern example would probably be americans and revolvers. Is it the best weapon? No. Is it even the best at what it does? Usually no. But they dont care, like you said it's cultural and also looks badass.
I NEED one of those wizard hats of death.. even just wearing a big one like a necklace is so cool. Dudes are dripping with blades in some of the pictures.
So we actually use the air-o-bee toys when doing sparing practice’s because they are the safest we can get at a fair cost. They don’t quite behave the same as the steel ones sadly, and warp in the edge makes them fly all over.
I would imagine continually spinning it around the finger would give you a large inertial advantage, especially in areas where it may not be practical to swing your arm out that much. It looks like the throw from the finger can be completed in a much shorter motion, while retaining a large amount of inertial force thanks to spinning it around, which makes up for the lost leverage. It sounds practical in theory.
Awesome. I just ordered one! It's from a specialist Sikh store here in the UK which I have had decent kirpan from before, and they say that their "chakkars" as they refer to them, are made in Amritsar, the Sikh holy city in India. I won't give a link here as I don't know Matt's rules on that. Their full description is: "Sarbloh Pure Steel Sikh Singh Khalsa Dumala Chakari chakkar Dastar Ring Chakar".
Without the demo clips one would be forgiven for thinking they were useless. Them sticking in trees and cutting stuff proves otherwise. Very cool.
A collaboration between you, Tod and Adam Celadin would be interesting 👍👍👍
I don't know whether this is true or a tiny bit of mythology surrounding chakram, but I remember seeing a history show that had another use for the chakram. The host of the show was interviewing Indian traditional martial artists (I think one was the man you specifically mentioned when talking about the finger spin) and they said the chakram was used in wrestling as well. They showed off pairs of bracelet sized chakram that were worn around the wrist, and they said that those were meant to use on opponents that tried to grapple them. Which would be a pretty vicious use for them, assuming that it isn't the Indian version of the Japanese katana myths. Though using a couple of razor sharp steel rings to rip up someone that tries to grab you does sound a lot more realistic than some of the whoppers surrounding katanas.
I'd watch a Collab with Todd and a traditional Indian martial artist in experimenting with these
you should go into the tech of the chakram because making a steel ring with an edge and aerofiol that had to be hammered, because casting would make it brittle, in 500 BC is very impressive.
I would have thought they'd create a special throwing glove, or even just a partial hand covering for the area needed when thrown.
It would also make some sort of sense if the smaller ones were used as a last resort back up weapon, kind of like a bladed knuckle duster, and one would slash with it. Idk if they did that, but it makes sense
That was really interesting. One of those videos I had no interest in on the face of it,but here I am,16 odd minutes later, possessed of new knowledge. I appreciate your thoroughness and your ‘referencing’ of your other sources.
Do I have an appetite for a practical weapon test?
Yes, I think I do.
Great video as always Matt... could u perhaps talk on the topic of Indian armor form the 16 century and the armor compares to its European counter parts?
True Story: 1986 Campus of the University of Florida, my roommates and I snuck on to Florida Field (campus football stadium) and after tossing our Frisbees around, we decided to throw for distance from the goal line. I threw my 185 gram Frisbee 85 yards on my 1st try. We played Frisbee golf almost every evening.
the most underated weapon that i love. we need more fantasy movies include this weapon in more ways again
eagerly waiting for the Tod's Workshop collaboration testing these! Maybe get some people who play college/professional Ultimate Frisbee to test!
A collab with Tod would be sick!
the spinning on finger thing could also be useful in urban warefare as it would be like having an uzi (no need to cock arm back) while other weapons would be like rifles that take longer to throw.
When you think about how fast you can throw a frisbee, and the fact that you can wear it around your neck, the death disk always made sense to me. As an added bonus if you have that highli mitt or a disk thrower you can get some teal speed.
Nice to see this being covered here. Have you see any of the wacky weapons used by Kalaripayattyu practitioners? Sharpened steel blade whips and such!
Ngl I always just asumed these were more for show than actual combat. Always blown away by Indian weapons.
And yes, get Todd on it!
Cool, but I liked the spiked version better, which I saw in a book about antique weapons. Spikes should be more effective against enemies with thicker protective gear. This version also had a handle, like a suitcase.
This weapon is mostly known because it's been used by Xena, the Warrior Princess. It also got a cool update later on so it could split in two.
I think it's most famous for being used by Xena.
Yeah. No shit, Joxer. I kid. I just wanted to give Joxer his due.
@@sakomanleeHe's Joxer! Joxer the mighty!
Most historical show ever.
I loved it, lol.
I would have said the Identity Discs in Tron: Legacy.
@@TomJMG Tron predates Xena, that's true, but I grew up with Xena on screen twice a week or so. ;)
Edit: did they use them in the original Tron?
Clicked on the video to make sure you made the obligatory reference to Xena warrior princess
Years back, the “Weapon Masters” TV show did a segment on the Chakram…. That was Mike Loades. It seems to be available on various streaming services.
Damn, this reminded me I was going to forge a few of these. Gonna bump it up on my list. Thanks
Up until the mid 70s in australian vernacular slang throwing a rock was reffered to by us kids as "chucking a yoni" both words came from India.
This would be right up Todd's alley, definitely do a collab.
What I'd really like to know is how they are made. How did they cast the metal and balance it so it would be useful? Compared to a sword a perfect circle would be particularly challenging.
Forged, not cast. Skill….
100 meters? Probably more. I think the current world record in aerobie throwing is actually around 400 meters/ 1.300 feet. A modern aerobie is of course an aerodynamic masterpiece that flies better than most objects you can think of, but still. And a well made steel chacram could possibly be thrown at least 200 meters with high accuracy.
One likely reason for there being both flat and aero foil designs of the chakram is different throwing styles. The aero foil design can’t be thrown (effectively)vertically as the lift from the aero foil would cause it to veer left or right. The flat design also has the benefit that the user doesn’t have to worry about whether the correct side is facing up
I can see how the 2 types of shapes could be used differently. The curved one is like an airfoil and is very effective in horiontal throws to create lift. But is vertical throws it may sway to the side and a flat one would be better.
The shocking thing is that there are hand to hand versions of these that are even more horrifying and vicious. Wheels of wind and fire.
What a cool weapon, I would definitely like to see some testing of distance throwing!
Just a stray thought; besides most likely being a viable method for throwing the chakram (as supported by evidense in both art and written sources), could the spinning be a way of distracting the opponent?.... by attracting his attention to the hand spinning the thing. Our eyes cannot help but look at movement, and if you have the skills to spin a chakram with one hand and wield a sword with the other, that might work...
The most precious metal in the world. And they use it as a frisbee.
Ultron
Maybe the spinning works like a feint similar to other movements in martial arts? I can imagine the spin cover some of the telegraph of the actual throw, making it harder to time a block etc
I apologize, but I think that you meant that it has been in use for two and a half thousand years, not one and a half thousand years like you stated.
Nice of you to upload this today as it is The founder of Sikhs 554th birthday today Happy Guru Nanak Gurpurab!!
I know it’s very different, but I’ve thrown arobees (I don’t remember how that’s spelled) with the finger twirl method and was able to throw it very strongly and accurately.
I’d probably to be scared to actually tri it with a razor sharp chakram, but it seems very workable to me.
I'd love to see what a top end disc golfer could get out of one of these! The inside and outside throws (backhand/forehand) are standard throws and can be used with angles to get straight throws or curves left/right/s-curve. Theres several overhand throws that are less common but known (thumbers and tomahawks where the disc raises at an angle, flips to one side then pans to one or other side as it falls. Grenades a vertical underhand throw that angles high then falls vertically) etc.
14:12 Matt really said “skill issue”
Chakra literally means "wheel" or "circle" in Sanskrit
Finger twirling would have a psychological effect on your opponent.
Ha ha! I knew this day would come. The Chok room is one of my favorite exotic throwing apparatus.
I could even imagine doing the finger thing with a short rod rod of some sort, to get extra leverage and speed.
Yes, a film with Tod would be amazing!
the internet needs more well made chakram videos
I am reminded how lots of ‘if x were universally better it would dominate’ talk I see on youtube ignores the price/manufacturing side of things.