I reached the same conclusion based on my own research, some time ago. I presented my findings to an electrical engineering student friend of mine. He almost fell off his chair laughing at my findings. He was adamant that I had made a huge mistake. I challenged him to do his own research which he then did. I should have recorded the look on his face and his tone of voice when he came to the realisation that the facts were so far removed from the fiction that it was hard for him to fathom. God, how I loved hearing him say "You're right".
It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy. With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
@@SnakeBiteCC It also takes a lot of polluting energy to manufacture/build solar panels and wind generators, which I don't see included in our host's calculations (he treats solar and wind as "zero emissions".
- yes, the total lifecycle analysis is very complex - checking and verifying all inputs. - a long while ago, I did a bunch of these sums, interesting. Even the silliness of computing cost and emissions of diesel generator battery offgrid system - solar is now more than ever an option for small scale "baseload" - with overnight battery, and a generator or the "incidents" not covered by the solar+battery.. It all comes in favourably along side anything relating to the existing grid (Australia), and more reliable than doubling down on "enough" batteries to last the "1/1000 year event" - as per ideologues "plans for us all".. Doing the same sums, Nuclear is far from Carbon neutral - lower than pure combustion of course, but nothing approaching "net zero". (also that phrase is basically false accounting). - Wind and solar absolutely have dirty inputs, not to forget EVERYTHING relating to civilisation has to be dug out of the ground, or farmed (even farming relies on mineral extraction via mining), it isn't "earth friendly".
Pathos trumps Logos .. basically emotions beat logic.. so all they need to do is brainwash people with ideas because facts mean you need to think.. (see it all the time I'm in HVAC engineering)
If they were running the coal fired power plant overnight solely to charge EVs, well then John 'might' have a point. But they are not. They are running those plants all night because you have to keep them up at temperature to meet demand the next day. You can't just shut them down at the end of the work day and start them up the next morning. That means that every night those coal fired power plants are making a lot of electricity that is NEVER going to be used. If I charge my EV at night (when those electrons will be made but not be doing anything useful) and then drive around all the next day, then I am driving on energy that otherwise would have been created but never used. Without burning a drop of petrol So explain to me why this is not a net savings of carbon emissions?
@@mafarmerga It still counts as Dino-electrons. If it weren't for that infrastructure, you wouldn't be able to scoop it off the top at night. Also, the more uptake of EVs, the more it becomes a serious load - ie, it's not just scooping up a little idle capacity, it's a genuine load on the system, which means burning more coal/gas.
@@andoletube When we have finally shut down the last of the power plants that run on dead plants and dead plankton, you will have a point. But at that point the electric grid will be so completely redone that I can charge my EV during the day with excess SOLAR electrons. YAY! But let's not pretend that anyone is going to keep a coal-fired power plant running all night just to charge EVs. That is a really childish argument to make mate. Right now I am driving around all day on energy that was created last night but otherwise would never get used. And I am not burning ADDITIONAL fossil fuels to do it.
John, you have not commented yet about the EV truck travelling around Arsetralia to prove its the future of trucking. On the TV, Ch9 news, they were praising its virtues and asked the driver how often they had to "fill up" with elsctricicles (my jargon) - his reply "every 200 kms. That is about as handy as an ashtray on a motorcycle.
@@ghunt9146 But it was quiet while they were travelling that conversation was easy. I guess conversation would also be easy while waiting for it to charge.
For last mile delivery this makes sense. They are not quite ready for long haul yet. The latest Volvos and Scanias can do around 300km now btw and that's with a weight of over 40t. More and more wholesale and grocery chains use electric trucks here in Norway now to do the deliveries from the warehouse to the stores in the area. They charge during the loading process and over night. Electric vehicles over 7.5t don't pay any road toll in the toll rings and other new roads with tolls. The diesel is also roughly twice price of Australia here in Norway so they probably save a lot there. It is roughly 2.63 AUD/liter these days.
@@stusue9733 My Range Rover was $5000 a year in Gas & Maintenance, My Tesla is $500 a year in Electricity and Maintenance, I'm saving $4500 a year by not buying Gasoline or doing Gas car maintenance.
We keep arguing about tiny amounts of CO2 savings etc. but isn't that telling? EV's need to be exponentially better for the environment to make adopting them across the world make any sense at all. We are just trading one means of pollution for another the way things are currently.
Oddly enough, they are exponentially better for the environment - as least when compared to petrol. You just have to get the calculations right, unlike here. As the grid moves towards carbon neutral, the carbon footprint of EVs will shrink to reflect that, so as time goes on the difference will become even more pronounced.
@@easterbilby,, spoken like a true pathetic tree hugging liberal.. hey genius when you learn to read and change channels you can talk.. no matter what chemistry you use in a battery it is the worse energy density compared to anything else, except steam.. you get fuck all distance on such a large worthless weight again compared anything you burn.. your CO2 bullishit, comes from a lot worse vehicles than cars.. also genius tell your buddies and the billions of other idiots, to stop idling their cars for no reason.. If you're so concerned about the environment, why don't you read up on how many millions of liters of FRESH WATER just to dissolve 6 tons of lithium and acid.. and what's left toxic ponds.. much better..
I love when people are divided in "haters" and "fanboys". Ofc there can be nothing in between, right? I especially love when people voluntarily join either one of those groups. 🐑🐑🐑
@patriot388 Okay & let's pretend that off-peak electricity doesn't exist because there is no excess supply overnight. BTW I drive a petrol car. I'm disappointed John left this fact out.
Had a design for a guerilla bumper sticker to plaster onto a random EV. A wilted house plant in a pot, fallen leaves around it and the caption "COAL POWERED".
The green this and that is just a smoke screen. The main idea here is to reduce human mobility and any independent travel is the evil. You own nothing, you rent and you are happy!
I think you give the green idiots more credit than is due. They are cultists. And they convinced politicians (who by the way are not the best and brightest of us, no smart person really wants to get into politics!) that this is the way.
Why? Please explain. Somebody with rooftop solar and an EV can drive nearly for free. Payback is just a few years. I guess you'd prefer to pay the big oil companies. Seems pretty odd to me. I know they'd prefer you think that way. They love you.
The only feathers being ruffled are the guy who made the video. Most EV owners switched because it costs less to fill up and EV and costs less in Maintenance, we don't care about the enviroment. we leave that up to the Petrol car owners, they are the new Tree Huggers.
@@dn059 This way of calculating this is debunked. How stupid are people? Do you think fuel appear magicaly on the pump? Just to refine oil uses 6-8% of all energy in the world. Then you have the drilling, pumping, cracking, transporting, and so on, to make the fuel. The prosses of making the fuel, probably uses more energy than you need to run an EV. And, do you really think that refineries chose the cleanest electricity? The gas/oil pipelines goes 30 times around the earth. The pumps are using electricity. Can you imagine how much electricity this uses?
You do actually get some output from PV cells from moonlight. Measurably more than zero, but still very close to zero, and certainly not enough to make an inverter chooch.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy. With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 The ev's also weigh more and have generally less payload and towing ability so you usually need a larger one to do the same job in the first place - along with the increased road damage, tyre wear and accident damage that extra inertia brings. Then there is manufacturing. Then there are the battery replacements, the lack of recycling, the treatment of the toxic junk they will eventually be piling into the ground, the early retirement of so many due to a battery failure or minor bumps scaring the insurance company and all the rest. I mean we aren't even getting into the apparently ignored fire risk, wasted man hours, building and upkeep of the infrastructure, transmission losses or any of that good stuff either. There is quite a large rabbit hole of unopened worms that no one seems to notice with them.
@@SnakeBiteCC So where do you think plastic comes from? How about the heavy oil to run the boats that ship batteries all over the world? How about the manufacture of those batteries? What about tar, bitumen, cleaning agents or any other oil based product? I presume you realise that petrol or diesel isn't simply refined on its own and is part of a process where all the oil is used? Its effectively a by-product and without oil use you can kiss goodbye to life as you know it. When you lot quote this nonsense it just makes anyone involved in the industry cringe because the actual energy to seperate, distil and "make" petrol/diesel is a tiny percentage of the process. Then there's the kicker - where do you think the fuel for the power stations comes from? The figures given in this video are given once the fuel gets to the power plant - just as the combustion figures are from the fuel getting to the tank. Coal doesn't dig itself up, transport itself, sort itself into the different types or any of that - all things which make it quite a bit more dirty than petrol/diesel being boiled out of crude. Thats before we get into the losses from the mine, the environmental impact a mine has in the first place or all the rest. Indeed it is unbalanced - he was very overly generous to the ev in this one. Even down to choosing a relatively efficient ev vs a great hulking ice which can do twice as much actual work. The model Y is on par with a Yaris hybrid for what it can carry so if you want fair thats cool - use that as a comparisson and add all the numbers in. You might be surprised at how much worse the ev is.
Benz E270 Diesel W210 wagon, from yr 2001. Still does 5.5lt/100kl. In chilly North Denmark. Have to admit though that range anxiety kicks in at 750kl of fast M-way driving past all those charging stations.
Cadoges. Your factual and analytical approach to vehicles has inspired me over the years. My wife bought a top of the line new gen Toyota Yaris about 3 years ago. Had the option of hybrid or petrol motors with the hybrid costing about $2,500 more and on Toyota's figures the petrol car consumes 1.6 litres of petrol more than the hybrid (combined), fairly similar on longer drives which she often does. Performance is fairly similar. I couldn't see that she would be better off with a hybrid as she only does around 6,000km a year and intends to keep the car for at least 10 years (like she did with her very reliable Mazda 2). I did some maths and found that for her the petrol car would use 96 litres extra per year (combined figures) probably even less for her driving. This equates to $173 per year at $1.80 per litre. She put the $2,500 difference into a managed fund and it now has with compound interest $3,200 (averaging around 8% p.a.). Even if the fund averages 7% p.a. she will have almost $5,000 with the extra fuel being $1,730 (fuel costs steady). So she is $3,270 better off. Servicing and maintenance costs are also higher for the hybrid and she may be up for the cost of a new lithium battery by then adding even extra thousands to her savings. Plus she has benefited the environment by not requiring extra energy, holes in the ground, CO2 etcetera to build the batteries and electric motors.
Only takes a few minutes to fill up as well, unlike the EVs parked up charging at the supermarket. Well, I say charging, but that big red emergency stop button on the chargers just screams "push me" on the way in. Oh it's fun watching them realise their car is still flat when they return with as trolley full of groceries :D
🤣🤣 Yes, but I recommend that you don't do that. I'm sure you'll be fined if you do that and there's no fire. Of course, if they get you or there is a recording that you did it. ● What is an Emergency Stop Button for EV Charging Stations? An emergency stop button for EV charging stations is an emergency stop device installed on charging stations. When an emergency occurs during the charging process, the user can press this button to immediately cut off the power and stop the charging process to prevent accidents. The emergency stop button is usually designed in red for easy identification and requires manual reset to restart the charging station.
Albo and Bowen - what an intellectual double-act! I just checked my solar power app, currently (9pm) producing zero power. If I had a 70kwh EV I’d probably have to spend $50,000 on batteries hooked to my solar to even partly recharge it. Found a 10 kWh battery for $12,000, and I’d need a few of them. Not gonna happen. Or, I could cruise over to the Ampol down the road and get the same outcome in 5 minutes for about $50.
I take it you leave your house in the dark get back in the dark and never have the car parked outside during the weekends. My EV is set to charge only off our solar and for most of the year that's enough to keep it charged even here in the UK. In Oz I imagine it would be more than enough year round.
@@Alantj22 I leave home at 6am, get back at 6:30 pm and I work 5 and a half days per week. During the day I drive an average of 4-5 hours, so no - solar panels alone won’t do it. I drive a diesel Hiace van that I bought at one year old 13 years ago for $30K. It does 650 km on a tank. A replacement EV van is about $100K, and they have a range of (max) 280 km between recharges. I have a 10 kw solar system. EV is USELESS to me, even if I paid for a shitload of batteries.
- I'm just getting done to set up some lights to crank the solar up after dark - sholdbe win win, better than moonlight at least... (Maybe the Amber credits will pay for the consumption..) (nb, tis all "jokes"... to any who may think I never did thermodynamics..)
@@kadmow I did think about setting up some floodlights on poles using grow-lights from a hydroponic setup to shine on the panels at night. Hooked up to a diesel generator trailer for power - I was going to run that all night long. That way I could power up at a cost of only about $2000 dollars per EV full charge. That’s called “Albo Math” , and “The Bowen Equation “. I believe that’s what our government is actually using.
I had an over-the-fence conversation with my solar-panel roof fitted, home battery installed, EV driving next-door neighbour. She was glowingly proud of charging her ID3 overnight on her panels. I must have looked puzzled, and then she mentioned the home battery. Ah. Unless I’m wrong, her home battery cannot be more than 13KWH total capacity, current U.K. regulation limit. Her ID3 is top spec - ~ 70KWH. Unlikely the car fully discharges its battery, and equally unlikely the solar panels fully charge the home battery. The bottom line is, even if the solar roof makes a steady 1KWH, allowing for British weather, it takes several days to charge the ID3. Factoring in the depreciation of the car and batteries - it’s just not financially sensible to buy solar panels, EV AND home batteries and expect to save money. Feeling great about my diesel Hilux
The battery charging will also depend on the size of her PV array. It's entirely possible for her 13kWh to fully charge during the day. And 13kWh could very well be enough to replace energy used for a daily commute. In any case it doesn't have to be perfect to be better.
It’s not a huge array. 2 gable ends do prevent her having a full roof of panels, which the problem with my roof. There just isn’t enough roof pointing south. I’d say 3KW peak output. This is a U.K., with grey overcast skies being the normal sort of day. For half the year, solar panels don’t provide anything near half their rated output. So by the time the batteries are charged, the household appliances are run, she’ll use off-peak electricity to make up the shortfall most of the time. Sure, if everyone did this, the world might be a better place, but that is a lot of batteries, panels and an EV to put in a landfill one day.
she can use the HUMUNGIOUS power available from extra cheap stored solar AND the wind that DOES blow at night. Look dumbos, charge your car OF A DAY. at 30,000 for an MG you could buy TWO for the price of a petrol car and always have one spare. Brain dead 1800's Luddites. Its gone, its over, its finished and we have not even got to tidal and current power, nor molten salt batteries nor hot sand batteries nor just using solar to heat water to near boiling as an energy source. Advanced battery science is only just starting and already its so efficient its closing coal powered stations at an ever increasing rate. The Ignorance is astounding. You will be banging on still in ten years that its not working and you wont be able to buy petrol or source carbon based energy at all. The revolution is really only 20 years old and the research and technology side has only JUST started. Live in the 1800's... just because... I suppose people went ballistic about cars replacing horses and steam being the work of the devil. Horses went, steam went renewables and batteries have already taken over and will only get bigger, faster, better and cheaper faster and faster. Live in you "hoax" world. The sheer idiocy of being anti green and pro carbon .... you are on a hiding to NOTHING.
we will be supplying solar to Singapore soon, its obviously a huge hoax. All of Europe could be supplied from North africa or any of the vast dryish areas of europe, its all one grid. Wind in europe is huge and solar in say , germany is also massive. You are arguing like , last century, the world has moved and very very rapidly Turope and the US are putting 100% taxes on chinese elctric cars to try and save dinosaur industries and car giants but they are stuck with acres of unsold cars esp. in the US. Look at california and Texas. Waste of time asking you to engage a brain.
It doesn't but he also keeps forgetting to add the 40% to tailpipe emissions to account for the GHG emissions associated with extraction, refining and transport of oil and don't forget the fugitive emissions which are now reckoned to be 3X higher than previously estimated. I also like how he doesn't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging. And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years.
@@rattusfinkus " I also like how he doesn't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging" Perhaps there is a reason for that. "And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years." You've been saying that for 20 years now and at current rate you will be saying it for about 40 more
@@stusue9733 have you seen how much renewable energy has been installed in the last year and the projects coming in the next few years. It's happening dude.
@@stusue9733 tell me the reason for including zero home solar charging when 60% of Australian EV owners have home solar and many prioritise solar charging. Many EV owners charge a few hours on the weekend and many EVs don't always charge at night. just giving the facts dude
I purchased a 2024 Toyota RAV4 Cruiser hybrid AWD. It is a fantastic car, I'm getting between 5 and 5.5 litres per 100km real world conditions, a range of about 950km for a 55 litre tank. My Suzuki 650 motorcycle does 4.1L/100km. Hybrid vehicles are the future for Australian conditions.
Funny I agree with this. I own an EV. I like it as a commuter car but would dare take it on a long trip, that’s for my gas car. As I’ve been saying for years, people don’t hate EVs, they hate EV owners.
Ev's are fine, I like the idea of near instant torque and f all noise, The problem is we need better battery tech which is slowly coming and cheaper prices. No one wants a 60kw lithium battery in their garage or carport next to the bedroom window, Won't matter how good that house fire alarm is, With lithium fire you are most likely already gone before you hear it.
- yeah stop prattling... ha ha, joking... - some EV owners are fine... PPL want choice, we all need to make our own - not be forced by some commie dictator or fascist overlord to "choose" their path.. (nor be babied by the WEF agenda nor the UN, one world government idealism).
@@ShaneMcGrath. That battery tech isn't coming though. We are still pretty much on the same thing as the 2011 leaf. They are better packaged, better cooled and so on but the base design remains and the better they get the less there is to gain - which is why we see little gains in efficiency of the battery itself and ever larger packs or better aerodynamics. With current tech thats all it is. We are already using the best bits on the periodic table so unless someone works out how to do it differently its only going to be smaller and smaller improvements. As for the fire thing - thats just how it is when you store a lot of energy in one place. Petrol and diesel can be put out by choking it but batteries which povide their own oxygen as they break down are much more difficult to the point of being practically impossible to put out in a home situation. There are ways this could be mitigated but it would mean much less capacity in each pack thanks to the seperation and fireproof membranes required and even less people want a 30kWh pack which is the size of a current 60kWh pack.
A bit missing from this, i knownyou excluded the transport of the energy source for generation or cunsumption, but add fhe co2 emmisions for refining the fuel used since you used that figure as the basis of your argument for what was used for generating the electricity. The amount of energy needed to refine petrol or diesel let alone transport ir is large. It would be interesting to see how the comparison comes out. Finally, agree, roof top and solar and battery first before the car as you use that more as a proportion to the car and if you have the roof top solar and battery when the ev arrives you cut your co2 anyway !
@@AutoExpertJC and EV batteries (or PV Solar batteries) don't come out of thin air and most are made in China with dubious environmental outcomes so its a cost shift, like throwing dog turds over the neighbours fence
In this video, John just offered to sell you a rooftop solar system with a storage battery. He says it's a safe storage battery. Really? I wonder if it's a Lithium-Ion battery just like the ones the power electric cars and going to Thermal Runaway. I believe John's numbers on co2 emissions, I'm having a real problem believing his claim of selling a safe storage battery for his solar panel system. I could be wrong, or John could be a pretty good bullshit artist.
@@Gazer75 Don't be an idiot. I've had lithium batteries catch fire. One day, I picked up a new Motorola flip phone and it started smoking in my shirt pocket. On another occasion, I ripped a small flashlight that started smoking out of a police officer's shirt pocket before he realized what was happening. I threw the phone out of my truck and the flashlight into a steel garbage can in the squad room, which we too outside. All lithium batteries are dangerous but the tiny ones are orders of magnitude less dangerous. I would never own an EV powered by lithium batteries. I might by a hybrid with a small 1 kWh battery. Toyota still uses NiMH batteries in a couple of hybrids. NiMH would be my first choice. I think John is a fucking hypocrite for railing against dangerous lithium batteries and then shilling for a solar panel company that uses "safe" "approved" storage batteries. Evidently, lithium batteries are dangerous except for the ones sold by John. If the batteries John sells are NOT lithium, why didn't he say so in the ad in this video? In the words of the late great jazz drummer Buddy Rich, "You're nothing but a high school bullshit jive artist and you've jived me for the last time."
@@1225KPH Most battery problems are caused by damage to the underside or side impact. However, I rent a factory to a large solar power company. Rental conditions are the batteries are stored in 2-20ft containers well away from the building. I would have the same setup at home encased in concrete away from the house. It's not hard to do. My first solar tenant went bust as they seemed to spend most of the time fixing micro inverter faults after saving $2 on a memory chip rather than the genuine Texas one. Plenty of fake copy charging IC chips in the market as well.
@@sustainart5207 My residential rental agreements specifically prohibit parking EVs on my property and prohibit storing electric bicycles, scooters, etc. on the property.
Cadogan is always entertaining. The EV crowd hates him, but look at his old videos. He drove an EV Kona for a year or so. Loved it. But also admitted freely that the Kona was NOT the environmental savior it was advertised to be.
Hi John, I understand your calculations and on the face of it this makes sense. What I will point out is that to compare apples with apples there should be the Added CO2 from the production of the fossil fuel and not just the end user burn production.
Add to that the bunker oil burnt by the tankers that bring refined fuel to our shores, and the diesel consumed delivering fuel to storage depots and finally to the retail outlets.
It simply works for me because I charge ev from solar most mornings just an 1hr top up and transfer whats left in the home battery from the night before. If i need more i put it on solar charge on the weekend. I haven't paid for fuel or energy bill in 2 years... Also i sell power to the grid every night at a higher rate. My tip is get a home battery organize your house so its energy efficienct and you won't even think about electricity or fuel again. Thanks for the show John and i agree but its not relevant to everyone.
If you can afford it. There are people who just cannot. The cost of housing (be it rent or mortgage) plus power and everything else is already at the point that a lot of people cannot find the money to just go out and buy a solar panels and batteries ,and get council approvals and a electrician to install. These aren't "dole bludgers" I know of dual income families that are choosing between having 3 meals a day or paying the rent/power bill. Reminds me of that silly bint in a meme saying "I don''t understand why people are homeless... why don't they just buy a house"
And we agree - if you CAN charge during the day from your own panels then your all set!. Perfect case for EV, especially for retirees. But at night it all changes . . . . . . . . . .
Oh and the average Australian driver drives 43kms per day so 7 kilowatts should cover it per day.. so the average driver doesn't need to suck on dead dinosaur with a little organisation.
@@iffracemI agree with your comment but take into account the cost of batteries and Solar is dropping.. if some can make it work surely that's a good thing.
@@bomberaustychunksbruv4119 yeah and if i need to top up my ev at night i can from my home battery but i don't need to.. because I can top up in the morning.. i would prefer to sell that power to the grid at night.. ev's are all about topping up not filling up.. i rarely have less then 70% bat unless of cause if i go away. i average 50km per day to work... if i do more kms during the week and need more i leave it charging on the weekend.
Those are the cheery folks that have solar panels for the daytime and lunar panels for charging at night. Keep in mind, they only charge when the moon is bright.
What this really shows is the trash-dirty state of the Aussie grid. On the upside, as the grid gets more clean 'down undah' it'll get better over time. Which burning stuff cannot claim. Assuming Aussie manages to eventually un-dirt that grid of theirs.
Plugging real UK electricity grid data into John's calculations gives the following. The following assumptions were made (based on John's choice of data). I actually think a Tesla in the UK can expect closer to 4 miles per KWh, but I don't know as I don't own or have ever been inside a Tesla. If true, all that would do is make the numbers below even smaller. The Independent found a realistic average was 3.69 miles per kWh, for example. Tesla AC charging efficiency of 75%. A Tesla getting 3 miles per kWh in the UK. When grid is 50g CO2/kWh. 22.2g CO2 per mile. 13.8g CO2 per km. When grid is 100g CO2/kWh. 44.3g CO2 per mile. 27.5g CO2 per km. When grid is 150g CO2/kWh. 66.7g CO2 per mile. 41.4g CO2 per km. For comparison: The Hilux SR5 48V was 227 g CO2 per km in John's video. This is not available in the UK, but the Hilux Invincible 2.4 Diesel (150hp) has a WLTP CO2 of 259-272 g/km. The 2.4 Diesle (204 hp) has no figures given for it. The Santa Fe Hybrid was 154g CO2 per km. So, in the UK, a Tesla model Y charged at home overnight is at least: Produces 5.5 to 16.4 times less CO2 than a Hilux SR5 48V per km driven. Produces 3.7 to 11.2 times less CO2 than a Santa Fe Hybrid per km driven. If you think the numbers I have used for CO2 production per kWh are unrealistic, well, they are not. In 2023 the average value for the whole year was 162 g CO2 per kWh and demand is always lower at night, meaning the grid is greener then. These are real numbers I see regularly when checking the grid during vehicle charging times. Conclusion. In the UK, charging at home overnight is almost always vastly more efficient than ICE at reducing the amount of CO2 emitted per mile (or km) driven. I can't thank John enough for providing a calculation that shows how in the UK, driving an EV produces a massive drop in transport CO2 emissions for cars. If any petrolheads want to argue this, then you are saying John's calculations are wrong. If an EV does not fit your use case (purchase price, range, charging at home not possible, you just hate them) that's fine, but you cannot use the "more CO2" argument against an EV in the UK. Just drop your own local grids CO2 data into John's calculations and you can see if an EV is CO2 useful, or not, in your region. In Australia, you are currently better off spending your money on rooftop and home batteries if you care about CO2, exactly as John recommends. It will save you money too over the lifetime of the system.
Umm sorry mate I charge ONLY when the sun is shining. I work FIFO and the Mrs works 3 days a week. We charge ATM at 1.6kw and have done 4500km in 3 months for a big fat ZERO draw off the grid. Soon to be charging at 7kw only during day when my second solar system goes on. Be a bit more open with your vids as there's plenty of tech to assist house load and all excess into car.
I have an off grid solar system that is capable of charging my car to 100% from empty at night time that’s because I have enough battery. I’ve been doing this for 12 years with no trouble . It’s 100% free and independent of the grid completely .
@@keepdafaith Yeah I'm not so sure house batteries were available 12 years ago, let alone 22 years ago. And it's either a tiny EV or a battery larger than any house battery I heard of.
Let's look at the big picture. It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy. With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km. The Ev's are not perfect, but they are a little bit cleaner, especially in the city.
Not clean if you see the environmental damage in production, Worlds drinking water is contaminated, Go do a quick search of pics "lithium fields" We already have severe shortage of fresh water worldwide, yet now they want 2.2 million litres of water to produce 1 ton of lithium
no, it's about a 10-20% overhead. This is all included in the scope2+scope3 emissions factors. You can look those up. Electricity also has about a 10-20% transmission and distribution overhead. You can also look that up.
Whilst I generally agree with your conclusion, my numbers are slightly different using AEMO dashboard data to compare the overnight/shoulder/off-peak fuel mix to the longer term average. Obviously there is no solar at night, but hydro is typically ramped down so it can be spun up at more profitable times (typically in the evening when PV trails off but load doesn't). Notably wind does account for around 30% overnight, with fossil fuels (mostly coal unless one of those old clunkers trips, which they do regularly) floating around 65% depending on the season and whether people are running heaters or air conditioners in various parts of the grid.
there are huge solar storage batteries covering more hectares daily, there is wind, there is pumped hydro. Just solar and batteries linked into an australia wide grid will work without wind. Tell me when there is no sun and no wind for more than a day anywhere in Australia. we can even produce hydrogen or ammonia and store energy in huge amounts. No brainer and its in its infancy.
@@lauchlanguddy1004 Unfortunately, reality disagrees. 1/ Go look at the actual data from right now, it's there, available, for free. 2/ There is no Australia-wide grid, there is an eastern-states plus some of SA grid (technically it's a "market"), and several independent systems. 3/ "Solar storage batteries"? You mean solar thermal (hot salt) or photovoltaic with chemical storage (batteries)? Storage doesn't take up huge amounts of space, solar-PV farms do. 4/ Using electricity to produce hydrogen then convert back to electricity is not very efficient (it's not just entropy losses, you lose most of the energy in the process), which is why most current hydrogen supply comes from natural gas, and it is less efficient than pumped hydro which is, to put it mildly, inefficient, and is only viable due to pricing arbitrage against non-firm overproduction. People spruiking hydrogen are often charlatans who have a business model which is predicated on grift of government grants and that their input cost is always negative (as in, they will get paid to use power to produce hydrogen). 5/ Solar and wind could, theoretically, power Australia, combined with controlled intertia (flywheels, batteries) and storage (batteries, pumped hydro, hydrogen if you really insist) and effective demand management (load shedding, spot pricing) but we'd need about 5x as much of it as we have right now. Or 3x if some fossil-fuel generation remains the system.
EV's prepollute their CO2. Sure, driving them seems cleaner except it takes many years before an EV starts making up for all the CO2 that was used to create it and maintain it. I drive one BTW.
My dad grew up in the Bronx on Fordham Road when the streets were filled with the odor of horse manure. He thought the rapid spread of ICE vehicles was an improvement. I remember riding with him around the Bronx in 1946 when he showed me the flat in which he had grown up and seeing a chain drive Mac dump truck which was driven by a huge bicycle type chain at the rear and putting out lots of diesel smoke as any proper truck should. Obviously I was impressed. He told me they had had solid rubber tyres back in the teens which caused vibrations that shook the ladies' good china off shelves so they had to put pneumatic tyres on them. An unintended consequence on a par with folks running extension cords from their flats across the footpath to charge their precious. I have mate here in Perth who built himself an electric Mighty Boy using a forklift motor and Chinese batteries who always runs my dodgy old extension cord out to the Mighty Boy when he comes to visit. He also helps me a lot more than the electricity he uses so I'm not against EVs or complaining.
"putting out lots of diesel smoke as any proper truck should" No, no they should not. Black smoke from a diesel is not "it's just working", it's over-fueling and wasted fuel and energy, you're just seeing someone throw money out an exhaust pipe. There will be some smoke (in comparison to petrol) but not constantly visible. Solid tyres weren't replaced due to vibrations in old ladies shelves, less vibrations and a better ride in the vehicles themselves maybe, savings and efficiencies in replacing the wearing part of a wheel compared to a bonded, solid rubber ring. But little old ladies crockery in the Bronx.. not so much. Next you'll be telling us the 1950's cars built like tanks are safer for the occupants (and pedestrians) than modern weak cars that crumble at the slightest impact... despite physics.
Because this is dishonest and does not include all factors, particularly the fact that renewables are only expanding in our grid even into the night, solar aint the only one surprise surprise to Johnny here.
Even if there is no efficiency gain from driving coal-powered EVs, you still have the air quality benefits of the coal power plants being a fair distance outside towns. It is also far easier to audit and maintain emissions control equipment at power plants than millions of individual vehicles. Stationary power generation equipment which have much looser size and weight constraints can be far more thorough with their exhaust scrubbing and heat recovery than anything on wheels.
It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy. With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
@@garreysellars5525 You don't need EGR or DPF on a power stations. They are both there mostly to mitigate massive particle output that comes from transient loads (accelerating/decelerating) while power plants operate at mostly constant power, relying on inertia from rotating equipment to absorb short transients. Because power stations aren't constrained by space and weight, coal power plants in places with air quality standards use large filter socks to catch particles.
Attempting to slow down ev adoption using data that doesn't balance the environmental costs of ev vs ICE recharging is a specious tactic, but you have tapped into one of the biggest issues surrounding ev usage - charging. By and large the West is addicted to fossil fuel power generation, so governments pushing ev's onto the public as some sort of climate panacea is just dishonest blame shifting. The electrical power grid is the issue. Adoption of renewables for power generation is going too slowly. China is the one country making huge strides in this area. From virtually no renewables 30 years ago, renewables now make up almost 40% of their power generation. They are setting the example for what is possible and we should be learning from this - quickly. If we get renewables generated electricity, then ev charging anywhere is "clean".
CO2 is not plant food, any more than oxygen is human food. CO2 is not a source of energy. Plants can ONLY take advantage of extra CO2 if there is corresponding increase in water and nutrients from the soil.
@@wiretamer5710Plants can only take advantage of CO² due to photosynthesis. The Sun is their source of energy, or their primary source of "food", by a wide margin.
Tassie, when I moved here in '98, was dirt cheap for ee lek trickery, now it's really expensive. Rightly or wrongly the Greens stopped the hydro being built to the size it needed to be, and also protest against the wind farms, (We have a shit load of near constant "roaring 40's" wind to use) so we have to use a gas fired power station and import power made by burning coal from the mainland to make up any shortfall. So now we have "dirty" power mixed with some "clean" and it's expensive. That worked out well......................
Still waiting for Albo to make the sun shine at night. Nice vid John, rooftop solar is the way to go. We’ll be looking for a battery for ours soon. Hybrids are a great solution and not too expensive comparatively.
It's a little more complicated than that. Wind and solar/PV hardware incurs a substantial energy/CO2 debt in its manufacture which most of their advocates don't like talking about. In fact I've yet to see convincing evidence that this 'cradle-to-grave' debt is _ever_ more than incrementally exceeded, if at all, by the power generated. Australians with solar roof panels probably don't want to think about all the CO2 emitted from the Australian coal burned in China making them.
John, hybrids also have a big battery that can burn your house down. I think you said you'd never park an EV in your garage, i guess that applies to hybrids too?
My wife's Ford Maverick XLT hybrid ute is averaging 4.5 L/100 km. The truck was a bargain at $40,700 AUD on road including options (full sized spare and tow hitch), registration, tax, delivery and dealer prep. No wonder Ford is selling every Maverick hybrid they can build in a bad sales market here in 'Merica. Petrol is ~0.94 cents/L AUD here in the US at present so an EV here is not only hard pressed on emissions but cost of operation as well. Don't want to make the fanboys fannies hurt, but the dealer comps the oil changes for the first 56,000 km.
I call BS; there's no way you got a full sized spare with a new car purchase, that simply doesn't happen nowadays. That's very good fuel economy; my diesel Fiesta is slightly better, but the trade-off is I can't throw a new mattress in the back of it.
@@csjrogerson2377 Au contraire mon fere. On the Interstate the truck gets right at 4.5 L/100km at 105 km/hr. running on cruise control. If the dash read out is to be believed my wife gets 3.8L/100 km. in town. I would note that Miss Dianne is 76 and knows how wring mileage out of a gallon of petrol. She did note that full throttle from a stop she can chirp the front wheels on dry pavement.
@@aceroadholder2185 Impressive, but I would suggest that your wife stops driving on the pavement. It tends to frighten the pedestrians and attract the attention of the police.
Did that same calculation for Usania (where we have nukes in the base load), 2 years ago , which is why I coined the phrase "Remote Combustion Vehicle". I can tell you, Tesla owners love to hear that.
If they were running the coal fired power plant overnight solely to charge EVs, well then John 'might' have a point. But they are not. They are running those plants all night because you have to keep them up at temperature to meet demand the next day. You can't just shut them down at the end of the work day and start them up the next morning. That means that every night those coal fired power plants are making a lot of electricity that is NEVER going to be used. If I charge my EV at night (when those electrons will be made but not be doing anything useful) and then drive around all the next day, then I am driving on energy that otherwise would have been created but never used. Without burning a drop of petrol So explain to me why this is not a net savings of carbon emissions?
@@981_pdk3 Sure, but if a coal fired plant is running all night, and no one is using the electricity produced, is that not a f#$%ing waste of money and fossil fuels? Why not charge our EVs with those otherwise wasted electrons and save on petrol the next day. My energy costs are $0.015 per km. How does that compare with your ICE?
6-8% of all energy in the world are used just to refine oil. Then you got all the energy used to pump the oil/gas around the earth 30 times. And, the drilling, and transporting. Numbers from Norway shows that you need 5% more electricity to charge all vehicles if they where electric. So, if you are going to compare EV'S with fossil cars. Please don't assume that the fuel appear on the pump. I expect that even the Aussies isn't that stupid.... PS! Oil lobbists at the UN managed to block the numbers regarding electricity usage in the oil industry. It became a "company secret". So, you can't get the correct numbers. Can John explain why?
Overall a great lesson for EVangelists, JC. While I agree with your "geographic adj.", I'm not so convinced by the "overnight adj." as that seems to assume constant electricity demand through the 24 hour cycle.
What about wind power, surely that contributes regardless of time of day, agree not so much but some none the less. Charging your EV with solar during the week-end at the light part of the day would be more accurate as to how to minimize costs. Agree the PM has no concept about charging an EV.
"What about wind power, surely that contributes regardless of time of day" Rubbish, there are times when wind contribute statistically nothing for days on end.
My understanding is that wind tends to die down at night, so the wind power stations may still be generating but potentially at a lower output. I don't know numbers but I'm sure you can find out with just a little research.
@@MrXaeox I've seen days where the total output off all wind on the east Aus grid (from west SA to well up QLD) was 2% of rated capacity. And I haven't even looked very hard.
What about the energy used to built wind turbines, the batteries they use, and the fact that these turbines cannot be recycled, but are left to rust when their life cycle is over? And just a thought to the wildlife that they injure while operating…..
I just took his numbers as provided because that's always a fun place to start. I didn't see his comment, but assume he didn't provide anything else but those numbers which as you noted aren't reasonably comparable numbers, so I set about making them more comparable. Petrol release about 34.2million joules of energy per litre when combusted in air/oxygen.This is 9.5 kWh of energy per litre of petrol. So if we take that 2300 grams of CO2 per litre of petrol and adjust it to how much CO2 per kWh worth of petrol, we get about 242 grams of CO2 per kWh worth of petrol. We're being far too kind to the petrol, though. A typical street legal car has an engine that's somewhere between about 20-40%. I assumed something on the higher end and used a value of 35%. So realistically, for each kWh of useful work out of that engine we need to divide that number by 35%, which gives us 691 grams of CO2 per kwH of useful work from the engine. While that number is noticeably higher than his quoted figure of 549 grams per kWh, if we're going to apply some adjustments to account for losses in the process, we need to do the same for the EV. I just ball-parked the number from my experience with power electronics and battery systems and used a round trip efficiency of 80%. Based on the numbers you used, that seems to be in the ball park, although there are significantly better performing systems out there, but this is still better than the Tesla Model 3 numbers by a reasonable margin. In any case, dividing that 549 number by 80% gives us 686 grams of CO2 per kWh of useful work. This is a very rough approximation, but should give you the idea that EVs powered by coal are probably in the same ball park for CO2 emissions compared to ICE vehicles. I'm guessing that he was thinking 549 is much less than 2300 so EVs win. I guess for his next trick he'll show us hot a 175cm nobody is taller than Hakeem the Dream because he's only 7' tall and 175 > 7.
I'm sure that when the sums are finally done, it will turn out thar EVs save no CO2 whatsoever in most countries, because there is no "spare" low carbon electricity available for charging them (it is already completely "spoken for" supplying existing electricity demand which was there long before EVs appeared.). Even in countries with abundant low carbon hydro energy such as parts of Scandinavia, the savings will be pretty slim once you take into account the cost of mining the raw materials, building an EV, and then disposing of the toxic waste at the end of life or when batteries need replacement. I just can't believe the money that's been wasted, the politicians that have been conned by charlatans etc.
"....politicians conned by charlatans" you have smashed it my friend - that is exactly the point - big tach has sold this snake oil to the govt. and now said govts. they realise they have been had there is no way they are going to admit it - they just double-down to save face. It will take a total govt. change to a party that has not "signed up" for sensible policies to prevail - that is as true here in the UK as in 'Stralia....
"....politicians conned by charlatans" you have smashed it my friend - that is exactly the point - big tach has sold this snake oil to the govt. and now said govts. they realise they have been had there is no way they are going to admit it - they just double-down to save face. It will take a total govt. change to a party that has not "signed up" for sensible policies to prevail - that is as true here in the UK as in 'Stralia....
On the contrary many places have surplus electricity at some point in the daily cycle. For most electrical devices the power they use is generated and consumed almost instantly as most electrical devices cannot store electricity. EVs can store electricity because they have big batteries. Here in Ontario Canada the power grid is about 85% from non greenhouse gas generating sources. Power in Ontario is generated by a provincial government corporation called Ontario Power Generation - OPG. I have a nice app on my phone that shows me that in the last hour, 9-10 PM OPG generated 19,503 MW/H of electricity. Of that 50% was nuclear, 19% hydro and 3% wind. None of these sources emit significant greenhouse gases. The remainder was from gas peaker plants that do emit CO2 and methane which are greenhouse gases. Of that 19,503 MW/H Ontario consumed 16,833 MW/H while it sold 2,670 MW/H mostly to NEW York State and Michigan State. Nuclear plants and large hydro plants ie Niagara Falls, provide the baseload power while gas is turned on and off as required. Overnight demand is quite a bit lower than daytime demand but nuclear and large hydro plants are not easy to stop and start so this power is generated 24 x 7. There is so much excess power available in Ontario overnight that Ontario sells electricity between the hours of 11pm and 7am for 4 cents CDN, per KWH. Guess when most people charge their EVs. Overnight when OPG is just begging for their surplus electricity to be consumed. At the same time they have just started the process to build more nuclear generating plants for expected day time demands. This will result in even more surplus electricity available overnight for charging EVs. If you have a home battery but no EV it also makes sense to charge a home battery overnight and use it to meet daytime and evening needs as during those hours power is 2 to 3 times as expensive than it is overnight. EVs to the rescue!
Once again John, another excellent video. With regards to methane emissions from coal mines, open cut and high wall mines will, by virtue of their design, not be able to capture fugitive emissions. However, underground is a different case. Underground mines always drain methane before they start cutting coal due to the explosive nature of methane. I know of three power stations using drained methane in the Illawarra. Other mines will flare the gas off, not good, and others will allow the gas to slip quietly into the atmosphere. While using the gas for power generation helps reduce the use of the grid, it still produces CO2. But burning is far better than just letting the methane escape to the atmosphere.
So to calculate the equivalent tail pipe emissions you use the emissions from creating the electricity. And to calculate the petrol or diesel equivalent it magically turns up at the gas station with no emissions. And you electively use the use case of charging overnight, vs, say the best use case of solar charging in the day or the average use case. It’s OK you dont like EVs. Just don’t do a video like this and extrapolate its ‘findings’ to the point where the calculation is meaningless.
@@stusue9733 It may be a fairly common use case, it might even be the mode, but this video chose the most CO2 emitting scenario to justify an already made conclusion. If you want to look at the real impact with what John calls ‘facts’ then you would need to take into account all the ways EVs are charged and in you comparison look at the real emissions from ICE which includes fossil fuel production emissions. And BTW if you added the fossil fuel production emissions then EVs would still win…as real studies have shown.
Recently bought a mitsubishi outlander phev for my wife. She commutes to town every day about 23 miles round trip so almost all her driving is electric. And when we take our 600 mile trips to family then the gas engine takes over. We have most of the benefits of a full ev without the huge heavy battery of a BEV. Best of both worlds and also price competitive too. And when you add in the co2 saved by not having to mine and manufacture a huge battery it's a win all around.
I saw a house yesterday, just down the road from me, they are ripping all the solar panels off their roof, and it isn't a small system. The tradies were smashing the electrical boxes off the sides of the (removed) panels with a hammer, so they aren't a salvage operation. (Adelaide suburbia).
Even here in the cloudy UK my EV gets all the charge it needs for 15k miles per year from our solar panels for 8 months of the year. NB the UK is just about to close its last coal fired power station
My boyfriend does double your wife's mileage, in a year, carrying a van full of tools and machine parts...can't see an EV coping with that. We have on street parking, so like most people in the same situation, can't guarantee that we'll be able to park outside our house...so home charging would be almost impossible. Oh, and have you ever considered why all our coal fired power stations are closing, when so many other countries, especially China, are building new plants? As if our tiny island makes such a difference, on a global scale! 😂
@@Alantj22What happens when there are quite a few days a year in the UK renewables drops to less than a half of one percent supply of required demand? Without 100% back up from reliable supplies, the cut in winter fuel allowances for pensioners will not make a lot of difference, just everyone freezes unless you have coal fires or wood burners, everything else needs electricity.
Did you not hear that he excluded the fugitive emissions from coal mining? He also didn't include the CO² emissions from mining and transporting the coal, or the electrical losses in the generation, transmission, transformers etc. I think you'll find that that will be similar to the CO² from producing diesel and petrol.
So your entire argument relies on people charging their ev when the suns down? Most people drive around 30kms a day, you’re acting as if everyone who drives an ev has to charge from a depleted battery every when the suns down. I feel dumber having watched this.
His argument also relies on the assumption that the BASELOAD is somehow higher because someone is charging a battery. Until the baseload needs to be increased to accommodate all the EVs charging at night, then the pollution level remains the same whether the energy is utilized or not. Johnny and most of his following are complete stooges.
@@TeslaDo_d yeah it’s baffling how many people seem to have bought into this video with their blinders on. I feel Paul knew what he was doing and knew it would get his crowd fired up. He gave the worst possible example of how to charge an ev and now his viewers think all ev owners deplete their batteries and require 100kwh of charge every night from coal powered stations. I don’t even own an ev, I drive a hilux and still couldn’t help but notice how flawed this video is.
What about suckling the oil out of the ground and converting oil into diesel or petrol? At the refinery What about pumping the fuel into your car? With electric What about oil changes and transporting to the petrol station.
Oh FFS picking worst case scenarios again are we? The grid has typically over 50% renewables in the NEM (eastern states) all day most days. Its filthy at night, usually
Just checked the Open Electricity website (previously OpenNEM); total share of supply from renewables for the last 12 months is 38%. That’s pretty good but there’s a long way to go. Black and brown coal combined is about 56% of total production.
A home solar panel about 1.7m x 1.0m produces about 440 watts - less than half a kilowatt. A 40 year-old 3 cylinder 1.0 litre Daihatsu Charade produced about 40 kilowatts, about 90 times more. If you can think of a way to fit 90 solar panels to a hatchback, and drive only in bright sunlight then go for it! Do you start to see the problem?
Well so I have solar panels on my roof and only charge during the day. What are your feelings about that? Also electricity can be generated from many sources not only coal and gas.
John is telling it like it is , like that time in last video that compared the drop in EV sales against the increase in diesel sales not petrol sales for some reason i don't know why am not an auto expert. i would have thought current EV's are more in competition from petrol cars and the drop in sales where account of high interest rates so shows what i know. keep up the good work mate
Cherry picking the numbers to support your position is not exactly a novel idea Fact 1: The Model Y Performance is not the most efficient EV, and I'm sure it's not the norm. The Model Y RWD is the most popular of the Tesla models in Australia, But you didn't choose that one because according to that German report you fished from the internet, only shows about 15% inefficiency. And by the way, kudos for finding an obscure study done in 2020 (which is why there was no Model Y on the list) that showed the chargng inefficiency of EVs but not exclusively AC charging (as you claimed). Most studies I've seen and the videos on the subject show a 10 to 15 percent when AC charging, not DC (or fast) charging. But even if you want to take this number, an increase of 25% from 75 kWh is NOT 100 kWh, but actually 93 kWh. While I believe the real number should be maybe 85 kWh, which changes a little your calculation, now it's 0.2266 kWh/km . But like I said, this is NOT the norm, a lot more EVs are more efficient than that. And I'm not sure the AC in an EV is drawing 25% of the energy, maybe like 10%. So in fact your 221g CO2 / km is actually more like 200g CO2 / km. Fact 2: Not all EVs charge from the grid at night. So on average, we can halve this number since some EVs charge from the batteries of the solar system. Also, most electric grids showing solar also have batteries that are designed to work at night, so your adding these percentages is not really justified. But for the sake of the argument, let's go with the most inefficient EV and dirtiest electric grid. I will go with 200g CO2 / km. Fact 3 (Easily ignored most of the time). IF you must calculate how much CO2 is produced when we generate electricity, shouldn't we look at how much CO2 is produced when we extract the oil, refine it and transport to and from the refinery to the pump? I'll use the numbers from a recent study of "Well to Wheel" emissions, and that is around 500g per km on average per car (no heavy trucks). And from that study we have this quote "CO2 makes up 95% to 99% of total vehicle GHG emissions. The remaining emissions, comprised of methane, nitrogen dioxide, and hydrofluorocarbons, are not shown." Fact 4: Even if the CO2 emission are equal between EVs and ICE cars (which are not even close), the EV polution is kept outside of the city since most electricity is generated outside of the populated area. At least from the health consideration, it is more important than looking at the CO2 emission in total. After all is being said, there is no way to reduce the CO2 emissions from gasoline cars, while the EVs can only get cleaner. Generating electricity from a renewable source is not only better for the environment but actually cheaper. Even if I believe that the battery technology is not yet mature enough to be mainstream, I'm sure that the future is at least going in that direction. I"m maybe an optimist, we might never solve the "holy grail" of the battery technology, but now the solution is acceptable for most people driving 50km / day in the city, which is about 95% of the globe population.
Thankyou for the fairly accurate breakdown. My daughter has a little Suzuki Swift and with her gentle driving it manages even better than a Hybrid to be honest. Why?, because it's a small light car and has a 1.4 litre engine. Hope Mr Wang chimes back in.
Exactly the same mistake as last time. You included most of the Well-to-Tank emissions for the EV, but completly missed the Well-to-Tank emissions for petrol. Petrol does not magically appear out of nowhere - it has to be extracted, refined and transported to the pump before we can burn it. This produces CO2, and lots of it. When you add that to your equation the EV is definitly better than ICE or Hybrid. It is not surprising that if you leave out a major part of the CO2 production for one type of fuel, but include it for the other, the numbers end up being off.
@@Clyde-2055 Well-to-Tank is the emmissions from creating or generating the fuel and having it in the tank. With EVs, that is the CO2 generated by producing electricity. With ICE, it is the CO2 generating through extration, refining and transport of fuel. Tank-to-Wheels is the emissions produced by driving the car (burning petrol, for example).
@@easterbilby - So by your definition, he must include the extraction/refinement/distribution of the oil for the ICE, AND he needs to add the extraction/refinement/mining/transportation of the oil, natural gas and coal to the power plant for the EV.
@@AutoExpertJC no, but petrol does not magically appear in the tank. If you calculate the CO2 making electricty, you also need to calculate the CO2 to make petrol. It does not take a genius to figure that out.
So dude, you keep forgetting to add the 40% to tailpipe emissions to account for the GHG emissions associated with extraction, refining and transport of oil and don't forget the fugitive emissions which are now reckoned to be 3X higher than previously estimated. I also like how you don't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging. And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years.
He's deliberately informing people without solar. Also, are you going to add extraction and fugitive emissions for mining lithium and all those elements for EVs?
John, after also doing some research I think you are not presenting the whole picture. You should be subtracting the renewable power from the total. The graphs I have seen show renewables at approximately 100 TW and overall production about 250 TW in Australia. Both are climbing, however, renewables are increasing more quickly. Every year the numbers of CO2/km will decrease. We did not get here in a day and we won’t get out of dirty power in a day. I drive a diesel to tow my 5500# travel trailer and a BEV for everything else. I live where 100% of the power is green and feel no guilt.
I wonder what the difference would be when considering the emissions produced during extraction then refining then transporting coal vs petrol. Considering the sheer number of petrol stations tankers need to attend, it must be substantial. Have you got the numbers for this?
No EV’S and crazy it’s better for the environment…. They are desperate…especially if you look at what is happening overseas. Fools, fools, fools, everybody cried. 😂as the song goes. 😂😂😂
WORLD WIDE. there have been 511 thermal runaway incidents in EV batteries between 2010 and 2023 In Australia there have been 4 Meanwhile 1500 ICE vehicle fires are EXPECTED by the manufacturers per 100000 units sold, PER YEAR, Just in Australia.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
I reached the same conclusion based on my own research, some time ago. I presented my findings to an electrical engineering student friend of mine. He almost fell off his chair laughing at my findings. He was adamant that I had made a huge mistake. I challenged him to do his own research which he then did. I should have recorded the look on his face and his tone of voice when he came to the realisation that the facts were so far removed from the fiction that it was hard for him to fathom. God, how I loved hearing him say "You're right".
It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy.
With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
@@SnakeBiteCC It also takes a lot of polluting energy to manufacture/build solar panels and wind generators, which I don't see included in our host's calculations (he treats solar and wind as "zero emissions".
- yes, the total lifecycle analysis is very complex - checking and verifying all inputs.
- a long while ago, I did a bunch of these sums, interesting. Even the silliness of computing cost and emissions of diesel generator battery offgrid system - solar is now more than ever an option for small scale "baseload" - with overnight battery, and a generator or the "incidents" not covered by the solar+battery.. It all comes in favourably along side anything relating to the existing grid (Australia), and more reliable than doubling down on "enough" batteries to last the "1/1000 year event" - as per ideologues "plans for us all"..
Doing the same sums, Nuclear is far from Carbon neutral - lower than pure combustion of course, but nothing approaching "net zero". (also that phrase is basically false accounting).
- Wind and solar absolutely have dirty inputs, not to forget EVERYTHING relating to civilisation has to be dug out of the ground, or farmed (even farming relies on mineral extraction via mining), it isn't "earth friendly".
Hybrids are great if you drive like an Angel.
Pathos trumps Logos .. basically emotions beat logic.. so all they need to do is brainwash people with ideas because facts mean you need to think.. (see it all the time I'm in HVAC engineering)
Stick it to them John, can't wait to read the coming comments.
@@homerhorisgumboot5503 news just in, grandpa rejects new technologies
If they were running the coal fired power plant overnight solely to charge EVs, well then John 'might' have a point.
But they are not.
They are running those plants all night because you have to keep them up at temperature to meet demand the next day. You can't just shut them down at the end of the work day and start them up the next morning.
That means that every night those coal fired power plants are making a lot of electricity that is NEVER going to be used.
If I charge my EV at night (when those electrons will be made but not be doing anything useful) and then drive around all the next day, then I am driving on energy that otherwise would have been created but never used. Without burning a drop of petrol
So explain to me why this is not a net savings of carbon emissions?
@@mafarmerga It still counts as Dino-electrons. If it weren't for that infrastructure, you wouldn't be able to scoop it off the top at night. Also, the more uptake of EVs, the more it becomes a serious load - ie, it's not just scooping up a little idle capacity, it's a genuine load on the system, which means burning more coal/gas.
@@andoletube When we have finally shut down the last of the power plants that run on dead plants and dead plankton, you will have a point.
But at that point the electric grid will be so completely redone that I can charge my EV during the day with excess SOLAR electrons.
YAY!
But let's not pretend that anyone is going to keep a coal-fired power plant running all night just to charge EVs. That is a really childish argument to make mate.
Right now I am driving around all day on energy that was created last night but otherwise would never get used.
And I am not burning ADDITIONAL fossil fuels to do it.
@@mafarmerga Sure, you're going to charge your EV during the day with your excess solar electrons - that'll work brilliantly when you're driving.
John, you have not commented yet about the EV truck travelling around Arsetralia to prove its the future of trucking. On the TV, Ch9 news, they were praising its virtues and asked the driver how often they had to "fill up" with elsctricicles (my jargon) - his reply "every 200 kms. That is about as handy as an ashtray on a motorcycle.
Yea, & for how long to charge each stop?
@@ghunt9146 But it was quiet while they were travelling that conversation was easy. I guess conversation would also be easy while waiting for it to charge.
For last mile delivery this makes sense. They are not quite ready for long haul yet. The latest Volvos and Scanias can do around 300km now btw and that's with a weight of over 40t. More and more wholesale and grocery chains use electric trucks here in Norway now to do the deliveries from the warehouse to the stores in the area. They charge during the loading process and over night. Electric vehicles over 7.5t don't pay any road toll in the toll rings and other new roads with tolls. The diesel is also roughly twice price of Australia here in Norway so they probably save a lot there. It is roughly 2.63 AUD/liter these days.
@@Gazer75 here in Norway🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
After they arrived in the helicopter did they ask how many litres does the diesel generator use?
EV owners don't care buddy....they're saving unicorns every time they drive somewhere...
- saving for the next overseas holiday. lol... (I am guilty, but don't claim to be saving the planet through consumption.)
They believe what Electric Jesus told them qithout questioning.
The virtue vehicle
@@kadmow " saving for the next overseas holiday."
Going to have to show us the maths on that one or I'll calling numpty.
@@stusue9733 My Range Rover was $5000 a year in Gas & Maintenance, My Tesla is $500 a year in Electricity and Maintenance, I'm saving $4500 a year by not buying Gasoline or doing Gas car maintenance.
John, you are forgetting to factor in the Albo Miracle Lunar Panels.
they must work at night because my lights turn on!
@@southerngentleman5321 Well the light is obviously above your solar panels ;)
We keep arguing about tiny amounts of CO2 savings etc. but isn't that telling? EV's need to be exponentially better for the environment to make adopting them across the world make any sense at all. We are just trading one means of pollution for another the way things are currently.
Oddly enough, they are exponentially better for the environment - as least when compared to petrol. You just have to get the calculations right, unlike here. As the grid moves towards carbon neutral, the carbon footprint of EVs will shrink to reflect that, so as time goes on the difference will become even more pronounced.
Bingo!
And the government control on your ev
@@easterbilby,, spoken like a true pathetic tree hugging liberal.. hey genius when you learn to read and change channels you can talk.. no matter what chemistry you use in a battery it is the worse energy density compared to anything else, except steam.. you get fuck all distance on such a large worthless weight again compared anything you burn.. your CO2 bullishit, comes from a lot worse vehicles than cars.. also genius tell your buddies and the billions of other idiots, to stop idling their cars for no reason.. If you're so concerned about the environment, why don't you read up on how many millions of liters of FRESH WATER just to dissolve 6 tons of lithium and acid.. and what's left toxic ponds.. much better..
its too late, its done, you can be a luddite but....
It's not the CO2 that bothers me with EV,s, It's when the battery starts to off gas in my garage as I sleep that bothers me.😊
And hybrids can do that too
If it's off gassing you should get it checked. It's not suppose to do that.
@@shutinalley - its ok, that is often a temporary state with the performance versions - self limiting deflagration...
@@xpusostomos Yes a 1.5kWh battery is just as bad as a 100kWh one, right? 🙃
And the CO2 equivalent of poulition when that ends
Which is not in the footprint equation 😅
I love hearing about EV fanboys having a meltdown! 😂
I love when people are divided in "haters" and "fanboys". Ofc there can be nothing in between, right? I especially love when people voluntarily join either one of those groups. 🐑🐑🐑
Proud hater here
The Batmobile runs on recycled dinosaurs 🦖
And proud of it too !!!
Oh Elmer Fudd….
You only open your gob to change feet 🦶
You obviously have deserved the D-head of the year award for that statement….
@patriot388 Okay & let's pretend that off-peak electricity doesn't exist because there is no excess supply overnight. BTW I drive a petrol car.
I'm disappointed John left this fact out.
@@tingtong5898 " because there is no excess supply overnight."
Correct.
You clearly have little idea what you are talking about or how grids operate.
Had a design for a guerilla bumper sticker to plaster onto a random EV. A wilted house plant in a pot, fallen leaves around it and the caption "COAL POWERED".
The green this and that is just a smoke screen. The main idea here is to reduce human mobility and any independent travel is the evil. You own nothing, you rent and you are happy!
No, it's to get people to keep buying every three years.
Which Uni did you get your degree in Conspiracy Theory from? Tosser.
I think you give the green idiots more credit than is due. They are cultists. And they convinced politicians (who by the way are not the best and brightest of us, no smart person really wants to get into politics!) that this is the way.
Ivosarak is Bang on the money , Your dead Right Mate 👍 NZ
Why? Please explain.
Somebody with rooftop solar and an EV can drive nearly for free. Payback is just a few years. I guess you'd prefer to pay the big oil companies. Seems pretty odd to me. I know they'd prefer you think that way. They love you.
I would not touch an EV even with a 40 foot barge pole 😅
Of course not, you couldn't lift it.
But you would with a 41 foot barge pole?
If I had a lower IQ I could enjoy your kind of conversation.
@@xpusostomos Could with thin carbon fibre barge pole!! Ah ha!
12m...
Cold hard facts 😭 this is going to ruffle some feathers 😂🍿
The only feathers being ruffled are the guy who made the video. Most EV owners switched because it costs less to fill up and EV and costs less in Maintenance, we don't care about the enviroment. we leave that up to the Petrol car owners, they are the new Tree Huggers.
@@NAY2GAS And those savings are cancelled out due to the very low resale value EVs attract.So theres that,dude.
Sélective ‘facts’
@myhome772 I do.
@@dn059 This way of calculating this is debunked.
How stupid are people?
Do you think fuel appear magicaly on the pump?
Just to refine oil uses 6-8% of all energy in the world.
Then you have the drilling, pumping, cracking, transporting, and so on, to make the fuel.
The prosses of making the fuel, probably uses more energy than you need to run an EV.
And, do you really think that refineries chose the cleanest electricity?
The gas/oil pipelines goes 30 times around the earth. The pumps are using electricity. Can you imagine how much electricity this uses?
(edit)"...rooftop solar charging your EV overnight"😂😂😂😂 ( lunar panels have entered the chat)😅
😂🤣😂
What? You missed a component of that statement. But it's old and move on.
@Low760 You're right- rooftop solar charging was implied.
But only if said solar panels are free, otherwise really really expensive
You do actually get some output from PV cells from moonlight. Measurably more than zero, but still very close to zero, and certainly not enough to make an inverter chooch.
And that's not even factoring in the CO2 that was produced when creating the battery.
The tesla bots will blow a capacitor when they watch this video.
About 10 tonnes extra GHG. Ask Volvo.
@myhome772 don't disagree with you there in terms of inner city air quality. But public transport also does that. Or cycling
there is no comparison dummies, when they are using all solar, there is basically no carbon.
That generation kwh probably doesn't account for transmission losses, so increasing Co2/kwh usable at house.
- and transmission losses are usually stated at the lowest - at which the supply lines aren't running at their maximum heat.
@@orionbetelgeuse1937
It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy.
With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
@@SnakeBiteCC What about all the energy and water it takes to mine lithium?
@@orionbetelgeuse1937 The ev's also weigh more and have generally less payload and towing ability so you usually need a larger one to do the same job in the first place - along with the increased road damage, tyre wear and accident damage that extra inertia brings.
Then there is manufacturing. Then there are the battery replacements, the lack of recycling, the treatment of the toxic junk they will eventually be piling into the ground, the early retirement of so many due to a battery failure or minor bumps scaring the insurance company and all the rest.
I mean we aren't even getting into the apparently ignored fire risk, wasted man hours, building and upkeep of the infrastructure, transmission losses or any of that good stuff either.
There is quite a large rabbit hole of unopened worms that no one seems to notice with them.
@@SnakeBiteCC So where do you think plastic comes from? How about the heavy oil to run the boats that ship batteries all over the world? How about the manufacture of those batteries? What about tar, bitumen, cleaning agents or any other oil based product?
I presume you realise that petrol or diesel isn't simply refined on its own and is part of a process where all the oil is used? Its effectively a by-product and without oil use you can kiss goodbye to life as you know it.
When you lot quote this nonsense it just makes anyone involved in the industry cringe because the actual energy to seperate, distil and "make" petrol/diesel is a tiny percentage of the process.
Then there's the kicker - where do you think the fuel for the power stations comes from?
The figures given in this video are given once the fuel gets to the power plant - just as the combustion figures are from the fuel getting to the tank.
Coal doesn't dig itself up, transport itself, sort itself into the different types or any of that - all things which make it quite a bit more dirty than petrol/diesel being boiled out of crude.
Thats before we get into the losses from the mine, the environmental impact a mine has in the first place or all the rest.
Indeed it is unbalanced - he was very overly generous to the ev in this one. Even down to choosing a relatively efficient ev vs a great hulking ice which can do twice as much actual work. The model Y is on par with a Yaris hybrid for what it can carry so if you want fair thats cool - use that as a comparisson and add all the numbers in. You might be surprised at how much worse the ev is.
Benz E270 Diesel W210 wagon, from yr 2001. Still does 5.5lt/100kl. In chilly North Denmark.
Have to admit though that range anxiety kicks in at 750kl of fast M-way driving past all those charging stations.
Cadoges. Your factual and analytical approach to vehicles has inspired me over the years.
My wife bought a top of the line new gen Toyota Yaris about 3 years ago. Had the option of hybrid or petrol motors with the hybrid costing about $2,500 more and on Toyota's figures the petrol car consumes 1.6 litres of petrol more than the hybrid (combined), fairly similar on longer drives which she often does. Performance is fairly similar. I couldn't see that she would be better off with a hybrid as she only does around 6,000km a year and intends to keep the car for at least 10 years (like she did with her very reliable Mazda 2). I did some maths and found that for her the petrol car would use 96 litres extra per year (combined figures) probably even less for her driving. This equates to $173 per year at $1.80 per litre. She put the $2,500 difference into a managed fund and it now has with compound interest $3,200 (averaging around 8% p.a.). Even if the fund averages 7% p.a. she will have almost $5,000 with the extra fuel being $1,730 (fuel costs steady). So she is $3,270 better off. Servicing and maintenance costs are also higher for the hybrid and she may be up for the cost of a new lithium battery by then adding even extra thousands to her savings.
Plus she has benefited the environment by not requiring extra energy, holes in the ground, CO2 etcetera to build the batteries and electric motors.
Now just get her to walk more.
I don't need to spend to install a charger, the local garage has ten, they are called pumps.
Only takes a few minutes to fill up as well, unlike the EVs parked up charging at the supermarket. Well, I say charging, but that big red emergency stop button on the chargers just screams "push me" on the way in. Oh it's fun watching them realise their car is still flat when they return with as trolley full of groceries :D
And there's usually quite a few fuel stations nearby.
🤣🤣
Yes, but I recommend that you don't do that. I'm sure you'll be fined if you do that and there's no fire. Of course, if they get you or there is a recording that you did it.
● What is an Emergency Stop Button for EV Charging Stations?
An emergency stop button for EV charging stations is an emergency stop device installed on charging stations. When an emergency occurs during the charging process, the user can press this button to immediately cut off the power and stop the charging process to prevent accidents. The emergency stop button is usually designed in red for easy identification and requires manual reset to restart the charging station.
@@laurapirrit6722how to say you are a dick without saying it.
@myhome772every ev can charge from a house outlet.
Albo and Bowen - what an intellectual double-act! I just checked my solar power app, currently (9pm) producing zero power. If I had a 70kwh EV I’d probably have to spend $50,000 on batteries hooked to my solar to even partly recharge it. Found a 10 kWh battery for $12,000, and I’d need a few of them. Not gonna happen. Or, I could cruise over to the Ampol down the road and get the same outcome in 5 minutes for about $50.
I take it you leave your house in the dark get back in the dark and never have the car parked outside during the weekends. My EV is set to charge only off our solar and for most of the year that's enough to keep it charged even here in the UK. In Oz I imagine it would be more than enough year round.
@@Alantj22 I leave home at 6am, get back at 6:30 pm and I work 5 and a half days per week. During the day I drive an average of 4-5 hours, so no - solar panels alone won’t do it. I drive a diesel Hiace van that I bought at one year old 13 years ago for $30K. It does 650 km on a tank. A replacement EV van is about $100K, and they have a range of (max) 280 km between recharges. I have a 10 kw solar system. EV is USELESS to me, even if I paid for a shitload of batteries.
- I'm just getting done to set up some lights to crank the solar up after dark - sholdbe win win, better than moonlight at least... (Maybe the Amber credits will pay for the consumption..)
(nb, tis all "jokes"... to any who may think I never did thermodynamics..)
@Alantj22 Sorry to hear that you don't go out much Alan. Keep taking the meds.
@@kadmow I did think about setting up some floodlights on poles using grow-lights from a hydroponic setup to shine on the panels at night. Hooked up to a diesel generator trailer for power - I was going to run that all night long. That way I could power up at a cost of only about $2000 dollars per EV full charge. That’s called “Albo Math” , and “The Bowen Equation “. I believe that’s what our government is actually using.
No 😮 not them dreaded facts !🙈🙉🙊
It hurts us!
I had an over-the-fence conversation with my solar-panel roof fitted, home battery installed, EV driving next-door neighbour. She was glowingly proud of charging her ID3 overnight on her panels. I must have looked puzzled, and then she mentioned the home battery. Ah. Unless I’m wrong, her home battery cannot be more than 13KWH total capacity, current U.K. regulation limit. Her ID3 is top spec - ~ 70KWH. Unlikely the car fully discharges its battery, and equally unlikely the solar panels fully charge the home battery. The bottom line is, even if the solar roof makes a steady 1KWH, allowing for British weather, it takes several days to charge the ID3. Factoring in the depreciation of the car and batteries - it’s just not financially sensible to buy solar panels, EV AND home batteries and expect to save money. Feeling great about my diesel Hilux
Light trucks kill more people per 100000 units sold, than any other class of vehicle.
The battery charging will also depend on the size of her PV array. It's entirely possible for her 13kWh to fully charge during the day. And 13kWh could very well be enough to replace energy used for a daily commute. In any case it doesn't have to be perfect to be better.
It’s not a huge array. 2 gable ends do prevent her having a full roof of panels, which the problem with my roof. There just isn’t enough roof pointing south. I’d say 3KW peak output. This is a U.K., with grey overcast skies being the normal sort of day. For half the year, solar panels don’t provide anything near half their rated output. So by the time the batteries are charged, the household appliances are run, she’ll use off-peak electricity to make up the shortfall most of the time. Sure, if everyone did this, the world might be a better place, but that is a lot of batteries, panels and an EV to put in a landfill one day.
she can use the HUMUNGIOUS power available from extra cheap stored solar AND the wind that DOES blow at night. Look dumbos, charge your car OF A DAY. at 30,000 for an MG you could buy TWO for the price of a petrol car and always have one spare. Brain dead 1800's Luddites. Its gone, its over, its finished and we have not even got to tidal and current power, nor molten salt batteries nor hot sand batteries nor just using solar to heat water to near boiling as an energy source. Advanced battery science is only just starting and already its so efficient its closing coal powered stations at an ever increasing rate. The Ignorance is astounding. You will be banging on still in ten years that its not working and you wont be able to buy petrol or source carbon based energy at all. The revolution is really only 20 years old and the research and technology side has only JUST started. Live in the 1800's... just because... I suppose people went ballistic about cars replacing horses and steam being the work of the devil. Horses went, steam went renewables and batteries have already taken over and will only get bigger, faster, better and cheaper faster and faster. Live in you "hoax" world. The sheer idiocy of being anti green and pro carbon .... you are on a hiding to NOTHING.
we will be supplying solar to Singapore soon, its obviously a huge hoax. All of Europe could be supplied from North africa or any of the vast dryish areas of europe, its all one grid. Wind in europe is huge and solar in say , germany is also massive. You are arguing like , last century, the world has moved and very very rapidly Turope and the US are putting 100% taxes on chinese elctric cars to try and save dinosaur industries and car giants but they are stuck with acres of unsold cars esp. in the US. Look at california and Texas. Waste of time asking you to engage a brain.
So I'm a eco-warrior by driving my diesel dual cab ute !
you silly greenie you.
Absolutely!
Fuck I have been a greeny this hole time and I didn't even know it 😂
Electric Viking is Agro at you
The bots are up and about early…
The electric Jesus followers
So is your mom.
Anti-EV parophets are up and about earlier.
@@hokroegerCalm down. People don’t hate EV’s. They hate EV owners.
@@NomenClature-o8s Why would you hate someone because of their car? Pretty shallow.
Question : Does the 647gms also include the coalfield draglines, dump trucks, diesel electric hauling trains and loader/unloader machines.
It doesn't but he also keeps forgetting to add the 40% to tailpipe emissions to account for the GHG emissions associated with extraction, refining and transport of oil and don't forget the fugitive emissions which are now reckoned to be 3X higher than previously estimated. I also like how he doesn't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging. And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years.
@@rattusfinkushe needs to appeal dumb dual cab buyers. I don't want an ev or a dual cab so I just don't like misdirected information.
@@rattusfinkus " I also like how he doesn't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging"
Perhaps there is a reason for that.
"And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years."
You've been saying that for 20 years now and at current rate you will be saying it for about 40 more
@@stusue9733 have you seen how much renewable energy has been installed in the last year and the projects coming in the next few years. It's happening dude.
@@stusue9733 tell me the reason for including zero home solar charging when 60% of Australian EV owners have home solar and many prioritise solar charging. Many EV owners charge a few hours on the weekend and many EVs don't always charge at night. just giving the facts dude
A powerful argument for getting rid of our coal power asap.
its gone, they are closing coal stations and just building battery storage on the site
I'm so angry I wrote this.
You need an anger management course, duuude.
Me too, grrr
Your comment changed my life. I'm so glad I read it. Thank you ❤
Grrr, did the same calculations and it it is easy to see the 0g CO2 crap propaganda.
Thanks for the support.😅
Angry videos get the views.
I purchased a 2024 Toyota RAV4 Cruiser hybrid AWD. It is a fantastic car, I'm getting between 5 and 5.5 litres per 100km real world conditions, a range of about 950km for a 55 litre tank. My Suzuki 650 motorcycle does 4.1L/100km. Hybrid vehicles are the future for Australian conditions.
Funny I agree with this. I own an EV. I like it as a commuter car but would dare take it on a long trip, that’s for my gas car.
As I’ve been saying for years, people don’t hate EVs, they hate EV owners.
Ev's are fine, I like the idea of near instant torque and f all noise, The problem is we need better battery tech which is slowly coming and cheaper prices.
No one wants a 60kw lithium battery in their garage or carport next to the bedroom window, Won't matter how good that house fire alarm is, With lithium fire you are most likely already gone before you hear it.
- yeah stop prattling... ha ha, joking...
- some EV owners are fine...
PPL want choice, we all need to make our own - not be forced by some commie dictator or fascist overlord to "choose" their path.. (nor be babied by the WEF agenda nor the UN, one world government idealism).
@@ShaneMcGrath. That battery tech isn't coming though. We are still pretty much on the same thing as the 2011 leaf. They are better packaged, better cooled and so on but the base design remains and the better they get the less there is to gain - which is why we see little gains in efficiency of the battery itself and ever larger packs or better aerodynamics.
With current tech thats all it is. We are already using the best bits on the periodic table so unless someone works out how to do it differently its only going to be smaller and smaller improvements.
As for the fire thing - thats just how it is when you store a lot of energy in one place. Petrol and diesel can be put out by choking it but batteries which povide their own oxygen as they break down are much more difficult to the point of being practically impossible to put out in a home situation. There are ways this could be mitigated but it would mean much less capacity in each pack thanks to the seperation and fireproof membranes required and even less people want a 30kWh pack which is the size of a current 60kWh pack.
EV owners are not nearly as bad as light truck owners.
This is what happens when you sniff your own farts.Too much you drive around , thinking you're saving the world with your electronic car 😂
A bit missing from this, i knownyou excluded the transport of the energy source for generation or cunsumption, but add fhe co2 emmisions for refining the fuel used since you used that figure as the basis of your argument for what was used for generating the electricity. The amount of energy needed to refine petrol or diesel let alone transport ir is large. It would be interesting to see how the comparison comes out. Finally, agree, roof top and solar and battery first before the car as you use that more as a proportion to the car and if you have the roof top solar and battery when the ev arrives you cut your co2 anyway !
You don't get it, do you? Coal doesn't magically appear at the power station either. Try to keep up. Go back in time and study.
@@AutoExpertJC and EV batteries (or PV Solar batteries) don't come out of thin air and most are made in China with dubious environmental outcomes so its a cost shift, like throwing dog turds over the neighbours fence
@AutoExpertJC Thats why we need more renewables, and thats what is happening. There is less coal being burned each year now. You dont get it do you?
Yay!!! Some love for the Perun Olight. Thanks John.
But alboslimy said I would charge my shitla using the solar power on my roof at night! Don’t bust my bubble…..
In this video, John just offered to sell you a rooftop solar system with a storage battery. He says it's a safe storage battery. Really? I wonder if it's a Lithium-Ion battery just like the ones the power electric cars and going to Thermal Runaway. I believe John's numbers on co2 emissions, I'm having a real problem believing his claim of selling a safe storage battery for his solar panel system. I could be wrong, or John could be a pretty good bullshit artist.
@@1225KPH Hope you don't have any mobile devices :P
@@Gazer75 Don't be an idiot. I've had lithium batteries catch fire. One day, I picked up a new Motorola flip phone and it started smoking in my shirt pocket. On another occasion, I ripped a small flashlight that started smoking out of a police officer's shirt pocket before he realized what was happening. I threw the phone out of my truck and the flashlight into a steel garbage can in the squad room, which we too outside.
All lithium batteries are dangerous but the tiny ones are orders of magnitude less dangerous.
I would never own an EV powered by lithium batteries. I might by a hybrid with a small 1 kWh battery. Toyota still uses NiMH batteries in a couple of hybrids. NiMH would be my first choice.
I think John is a fucking hypocrite for railing against dangerous lithium batteries and then shilling for a solar panel company that uses "safe" "approved" storage batteries. Evidently, lithium batteries are dangerous except for the ones sold by John.
If the batteries John sells are NOT lithium, why didn't he say so in the ad in this video?
In the words of the late great jazz drummer Buddy Rich, "You're nothing but a high school bullshit jive artist and you've jived me for the last time."
@@1225KPH Most battery problems are caused by damage to the underside or side impact. However, I rent a factory to a large solar power company. Rental conditions are the batteries are stored in 2-20ft containers well away from the building. I would have the same setup at home encased in concrete away from the house. It's not hard to do. My first solar tenant went bust as they seemed to spend most of the time fixing micro inverter faults after saving $2 on a memory chip rather than the genuine Texas one. Plenty of fake copy charging IC chips in the market as well.
@@sustainart5207 My residential rental agreements specifically prohibit parking EVs on my property and prohibit storing electric bicycles, scooters, etc. on the property.
Cadogan is always entertaining. The EV crowd hates him, but look at his old videos. He drove an EV Kona for a year or so. Loved it. But also admitted freely that the Kona was NOT the environmental savior it was advertised to be.
Oh why didn’t Australia listen to Gonski, every time I think about the report I never imagined he would be talking out politicians.
They started feeding private school's more money.
Hi John, I understand your calculations and on the face of it this makes sense. What I will point out is that to compare apples with apples there should be the Added CO2 from the production of the fossil fuel and not just the end user burn production.
Add to that the bunker oil burnt by the tankers that bring refined fuel to our shores, and the diesel consumed delivering fuel to storage depots and finally to the retail outlets.
It simply works for me because I charge ev from solar most mornings just an 1hr top up and transfer whats left in the home battery from the night before. If i need more i put it on solar charge on the weekend. I haven't paid for fuel or energy bill in 2 years... Also i sell power to the grid every night at a higher rate. My tip is get a home battery organize your house so its energy efficienct and you won't even think about electricity or fuel again. Thanks for the show John and i agree but its not relevant to everyone.
If you can afford it. There are people who just cannot. The cost of housing (be it rent or mortgage) plus power and everything else is already at the point that a lot of people cannot find the money to just go out and buy a solar panels and batteries ,and get council approvals and a electrician to install. These aren't "dole bludgers" I know of dual income families that are choosing between having 3 meals a day or paying the rent/power bill.
Reminds me of that silly bint in a meme saying "I don''t understand why people are homeless... why don't they just buy a house"
And we agree - if you CAN charge during the day from your own panels then your all set!. Perfect case for EV, especially for retirees. But at night it all changes . . . . . . . . . .
Oh and the average Australian driver drives 43kms per day so 7 kilowatts should cover it per day.. so the average driver doesn't need to suck on dead dinosaur with a little organisation.
@@iffracemI agree with your comment but take into account the cost of batteries and Solar is dropping.. if some can make it work surely that's a good thing.
@@bomberaustychunksbruv4119
yeah and if i need to top up my ev at night i can from my home battery but i don't need to.. because I can top up in the morning.. i would prefer to sell that power to the grid at night.. ev's are all about topping up not filling up.. i rarely have less then 70% bat unless of cause if i go away. i average 50km per day to work... if i do more kms during the week and need more i leave it charging on the weekend.
Those are the cheery folks that have solar panels for the daytime and lunar panels for charging at night.
Keep in mind, they only charge when the moon is bright.
What this really shows is the trash-dirty state of the Aussie grid. On the upside, as the grid gets more clean 'down undah' it'll get better over time. Which burning stuff cannot claim.
Assuming Aussie manages to eventually un-dirt that grid of theirs.
Plugging real UK electricity grid data into John's calculations gives the following.
The following assumptions were made (based on John's choice of data). I actually think a Tesla in the UK can expect closer to 4 miles per KWh, but I don't know as I don't own or have ever been inside a Tesla. If true, all that would do is make the numbers below even smaller. The Independent found a realistic average was 3.69 miles per kWh, for example.
Tesla AC charging efficiency of 75%.
A Tesla getting 3 miles per kWh in the UK.
When grid is 50g CO2/kWh.
22.2g CO2 per mile.
13.8g CO2 per km.
When grid is 100g CO2/kWh.
44.3g CO2 per mile.
27.5g CO2 per km.
When grid is 150g CO2/kWh.
66.7g CO2 per mile.
41.4g CO2 per km.
For comparison:
The Hilux SR5 48V was 227 g CO2 per km in John's video. This is not available in the UK, but the Hilux Invincible 2.4 Diesel (150hp) has a WLTP CO2 of 259-272 g/km. The 2.4 Diesle (204 hp) has no figures given for it.
The Santa Fe Hybrid was 154g CO2 per km.
So, in the UK, a Tesla model Y charged at home overnight is at least:
Produces 5.5 to 16.4 times less CO2 than a Hilux SR5 48V per km driven.
Produces 3.7 to 11.2 times less CO2 than a Santa Fe Hybrid per km driven.
If you think the numbers I have used for CO2 production per kWh are unrealistic, well, they are not. In 2023 the average value for the whole year was 162 g CO2 per kWh and demand is always lower at night, meaning the grid is greener then. These are real numbers I see regularly when checking the grid during vehicle charging times.
Conclusion.
In the UK, charging at home overnight is almost always vastly more efficient than ICE at reducing the amount of CO2 emitted per mile (or km) driven.
I can't thank John enough for providing a calculation that shows how in the UK, driving an EV produces a massive drop in transport CO2 emissions for cars.
If any petrolheads want to argue this, then you are saying John's calculations are wrong. If an EV does not fit your use case (purchase price, range, charging at home not possible, you just hate them) that's fine, but you cannot use the "more CO2" argument against an EV in the UK. Just drop your own local grids CO2 data into John's calculations and you can see if an EV is CO2 useful, or not, in your region.
In Australia, you are currently better off spending your money on rooftop and home batteries if you care about CO2, exactly as John recommends. It will save you money too over the lifetime of the system.
Umm sorry mate I charge ONLY when the sun is shining. I work FIFO and the Mrs works 3 days a week. We charge ATM at 1.6kw and have done 4500km in 3 months for a big fat ZERO draw off the grid. Soon to be charging at 7kw only during day when my second solar system goes on. Be a bit more open with your vids as there's plenty of tech to assist house load and all excess into car.
No job, huh?
I have an off grid solar system that is capable of charging my car to 100% from empty at night time that’s because I have enough battery.
I’ve been doing this for 12 years with no trouble .
It’s 100% free and independent of the grid completely .
Oh look, a unicorn.
I'm connected to the grid and get $0.60kWhr for infeed.... so?
Good on you Michael.
If you did it from 12 years ago, imagine how much easier and cheaper it is now.
@@keepdafaith Yeah I'm not so sure house batteries were available 12 years ago, let alone 22 years ago.
And it's either a tiny EV or a battery larger than any house battery I heard of.
Let's look at the big picture. It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy.
With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
The Ev's are not perfect, but they are a little bit cleaner, especially in the city.
Not clean if you see the environmental damage in production, Worlds drinking water is contaminated, Go do a quick search of pics "lithium fields"
We already have severe shortage of fresh water worldwide, yet now they want 2.2 million litres of water to produce 1 ton of lithium
no, it's about a 10-20% overhead. This is all included in the scope2+scope3 emissions factors. You can look those up.
Electricity also has about a 10-20% transmission and distribution overhead. You can also look that up.
Thanks for the sobering data John.
Whilst I generally agree with your conclusion, my numbers are slightly different using AEMO dashboard data to compare the overnight/shoulder/off-peak fuel mix to the longer term average. Obviously there is no solar at night, but hydro is typically ramped down so it can be spun up at more profitable times (typically in the evening when PV trails off but load doesn't). Notably wind does account for around 30% overnight, with fossil fuels (mostly coal unless one of those old clunkers trips, which they do regularly) floating around 65% depending on the season and whether people are running heaters or air conditioners in various parts of the grid.
there are huge solar storage batteries covering more hectares daily, there is wind, there is pumped hydro. Just solar and batteries linked into an australia wide grid will work without wind. Tell me when there is no sun and no wind for more than a day anywhere in Australia. we can even produce hydrogen or ammonia and store energy in huge amounts. No brainer and its in its infancy.
@@lauchlanguddy1004 Unfortunately, reality disagrees. 1/ Go look at the actual data from right now, it's there, available, for free. 2/ There is no Australia-wide grid, there is an eastern-states plus some of SA grid (technically it's a "market"), and several independent systems. 3/ "Solar storage batteries"? You mean solar thermal (hot salt) or photovoltaic with chemical storage (batteries)? Storage doesn't take up huge amounts of space, solar-PV farms do. 4/ Using electricity to produce hydrogen then convert back to electricity is not very efficient (it's not just entropy losses, you lose most of the energy in the process), which is why most current hydrogen supply comes from natural gas, and it is less efficient than pumped hydro which is, to put it mildly, inefficient, and is only viable due to pricing arbitrage against non-firm overproduction. People spruiking hydrogen are often charlatans who have a business model which is predicated on grift of government grants and that their input cost is always negative (as in, they will get paid to use power to produce hydrogen). 5/ Solar and wind could, theoretically, power Australia, combined with controlled intertia (flywheels, batteries) and storage (batteries, pumped hydro, hydrogen if you really insist) and effective demand management (load shedding, spot pricing) but we'd need about 5x as much of it as we have right now. Or 3x if some fossil-fuel generation remains the system.
Thank you, John.
bUt NoThInG cOmEs OuT tHe TaiLpiPe 🙃
EV's prepollute their CO2. Sure, driving them seems cleaner except it takes many years before an EV starts making up for all the CO2 that was used to create it and maintain it. I drive one BTW.
No, but it takes millions of tons of coal to make the battery's, very environmental friendly.
@@Ronick-Q-46
And to charge them 😮
Don’t forget the energy loss every time you convert from coal to electricity, and then current to battery storage
My dad grew up in the Bronx on Fordham Road when the streets were filled with the odor of horse manure. He thought the rapid spread of ICE vehicles was an improvement. I remember riding with him around the Bronx in 1946 when he showed me the flat in which he had grown up and seeing a chain drive Mac dump truck which was driven by a huge bicycle type chain at the rear and putting out lots of diesel smoke as any proper truck should. Obviously I was impressed. He told me they had had solid rubber tyres back in the teens which caused vibrations that shook the ladies' good china off shelves so they had to put pneumatic tyres on them. An unintended consequence on a par with folks running extension cords from their flats across the footpath to charge their precious. I have mate here in Perth who built himself an electric Mighty Boy using a forklift motor and Chinese batteries who always runs my dodgy old extension cord out to the Mighty Boy when he comes to visit. He also helps me a lot more than the electricity he uses so I'm not against EVs or complaining.
"putting out lots of diesel smoke as any proper truck should"
No, no they should not.
Black smoke from a diesel is not "it's just working", it's over-fueling and wasted fuel and energy, you're just seeing someone throw money out an exhaust pipe. There will be some smoke (in comparison to petrol) but not constantly visible.
Solid tyres weren't replaced due to vibrations in old ladies shelves, less vibrations and a better ride in the vehicles themselves maybe, savings and efficiencies in replacing the wearing part of a wheel compared to a bonded, solid rubber ring. But little old ladies crockery in the Bronx.. not so much.
Next you'll be telling us the 1950's cars built like tanks are safer for the occupants (and pedestrians) than modern weak cars that crumble at the slightest impact... despite physics.
Why are you quoting data from "NEM data as of JUNE 2017" ?
Because this is dishonest and does not include all factors, particularly the fact that renewables are only expanding in our grid even into the night, solar aint the only one surprise surprise to Johnny here.
Very interesting man thanks!
Even if there is no efficiency gain from driving coal-powered EVs, you still have the air quality benefits of the coal power plants being a fair distance outside towns. It is also far easier to audit and maintain emissions control equipment at power plants than millions of individual vehicles. Stationary power generation equipment which have much looser size and weight constraints can be far more thorough with their exhaust scrubbing and heat recovery than anything on wheels.
" far more thorough with their exhaust scrubbing and heat recovery than anything on wheels."
You just made that up didn't you.
It takes a lot of polluting energy to produce one liter of gasoline and to deliver it to the gas station, and it also takes electrical energy.
With the inclusion of this factor, we see that it is somewhat unbalanced in terms of CO2 per km.
There definitely is a benefit to EV use, no doubt. It just isn't much, and it needs to be many times better before normal people will adopt.
@@teardowndan5364 but there is no EGR OR DPF on the power station
@@garreysellars5525 You don't need EGR or DPF on a power stations. They are both there mostly to mitigate massive particle output that comes from transient loads (accelerating/decelerating) while power plants operate at mostly constant power, relying on inertia from rotating equipment to absorb short transients.
Because power stations aren't constrained by space and weight, coal power plants in places with air quality standards use large filter socks to catch particles.
Attempting to slow down ev adoption using data that doesn't balance the environmental costs of ev vs ICE recharging is a specious tactic, but you have tapped into one of the biggest issues surrounding ev usage - charging. By and large the West is addicted to fossil fuel power generation, so governments pushing ev's onto the public as some sort of climate panacea is just dishonest blame shifting. The electrical power grid is the issue. Adoption of renewables for power generation is going too slowly. China is the one country making huge strides in this area. From virtually no renewables 30 years ago, renewables now make up almost 40% of their power generation. They are setting the example for what is possible and we should be learning from this - quickly. If we get renewables generated electricity, then ev charging anywhere is "clean".
CO2 is not Pollution it's plant food. Again the facts always hurt.
Same with Ozone - we are told Ozone is bad, but guess what stops harmfull Radiation from frying us all. Yep, Ozone does, stops it in the atmosphere.
@@bomberaustychunksbruv4119who said ozone was bad? Exactly no one.
CO2 is not plant food, any more than oxygen is human food. CO2 is not a source of energy. Plants can ONLY take advantage of extra CO2 if there is corresponding increase in water and nutrients from the soil.
@@wiretamer5710Plants can only take advantage of CO² due to photosynthesis. The Sun is their source of energy, or their primary source of "food", by a wide margin.
Yet plants in greenhouses grow bigger and stronger with additional co2, not from extra uv lights...
SA... Where we have the highest elec prices too.. its painful.. Please send coal!
However no demand charge.
Tassie, when I moved here in '98, was dirt cheap for ee lek trickery, now it's really expensive.
Rightly or wrongly the Greens stopped the hydro being built to the size it needed to be, and also protest against the wind farms, (We have a shit load of near constant "roaring 40's" wind to use) so we have to use a gas fired power station and import power made by burning coal from the mainland to make up any shortfall.
So now we have "dirty" power mixed with some "clean" and it's expensive.
That worked out well......................
Still waiting for Albo to make the sun shine at night. Nice vid John, rooftop solar is the way to go. We’ll be looking for a battery for ours soon. Hybrids are a great solution and not too expensive comparatively.
It's a little more complicated than that. Wind and solar/PV hardware incurs a substantial energy/CO2 debt in its manufacture which most of their advocates don't like talking about. In fact I've yet to see convincing evidence that this 'cradle-to-grave' debt is _ever_ more than incrementally exceeded, if at all, by the power generated. Australians with solar roof panels probably don't want to think about all the CO2 emitted from the Australian coal burned in China making them.
John, hybrids also have a big battery that can burn your house down. I think you said you'd never park an EV in your garage, i guess that applies to hybrids too?
My wife's Ford Maverick XLT hybrid ute is averaging 4.5 L/100 km. The truck was a bargain at $40,700 AUD on road including options (full sized spare and tow hitch), registration, tax, delivery and dealer prep. No wonder Ford is selling every Maverick hybrid they can build in a bad sales market here in 'Merica.
Petrol is ~0.94 cents/L AUD here in the US at present so an EV here is not only hard pressed on emissions but cost of operation as well. Don't want to make the fanboys fannies hurt, but the dealer comps the oil changes for the first 56,000 km.
Must be running the Maverick around town for shopping and kids school runs. Bet you don't get that on the freeway/motorway/highway?
I call BS; there's no way you got a full sized spare with a new car purchase, that simply doesn't happen nowadays.
That's very good fuel economy; my diesel Fiesta is slightly better, but the trade-off is I can't throw a new mattress in the back of it.
@@csjrogerson2377 Au contraire mon fere. On the Interstate the truck gets right at 4.5 L/100km at 105 km/hr. running on cruise control. If the dash read out is to be believed my wife gets 3.8L/100 km. in town. I would note that Miss Dianne is 76 and knows how wring mileage out of a gallon of petrol. She did note that full throttle from a stop she can chirp the front wheels on dry pavement.
@@aceroadholder2185 Impressive, but I would suggest that your wife stops driving on the pavement. It tends to frighten the pedestrians and attract the attention of the police.
Did that same calculation for Usania (where we have nukes in the base load), 2 years ago , which is why I coined the phrase "Remote Combustion Vehicle". I can tell you, Tesla owners love to hear that.
If they were running the coal fired power plant overnight solely to charge EVs, well then John 'might' have a point.
But they are not.
They are running those plants all night because you have to keep them up at temperature to meet demand the next day. You can't just shut them down at the end of the work day and start them up the next morning.
That means that every night those coal fired power plants are making a lot of electricity that is NEVER going to be used.
If I charge my EV at night (when those electrons will be made but not be doing anything useful) and then drive around all the next day, then I am driving on energy that otherwise would have been created but never used. Without burning a drop of petrol
So explain to me why this is not a net savings of carbon emissions?
The energy generated is always used. It has to be. The generation must match the load. You simpleton.
Yeah but there appears to be a mix of ‘baseload’ and ‘peak load’ power plant types
@@981_pdk3 Sure, but if a coal fired plant is running all night, and no one is using the electricity produced, is that not a f#$%ing waste of money and fossil fuels?
Why not charge our EVs with those otherwise wasted electrons and save on petrol the next day.
My energy costs are $0.015 per km. How does that compare with your ICE?
Does it matter what order you divide things?
Maybe just get a coal fired car and cut out the electricity.
Or not, as the case may be. We have a VW e-Up which we charge from sunlight (we have 4kW of PV on the roof). We don't use mains electricity to charge.
6-8% of all energy in the world are used just to refine oil.
Then you got all the energy used to pump the oil/gas around the earth 30 times. And, the drilling, and transporting.
Numbers from Norway shows that you need 5% more electricity to charge all vehicles if they where electric.
So, if you are going to compare EV'S with fossil cars.
Please don't assume that the fuel appear on the pump.
I expect that even the Aussies isn't that stupid....
PS! Oil lobbists at the UN managed to block the numbers regarding electricity usage in the oil industry. It became a "company secret". So, you can't get the correct numbers.
Can John explain why?
You seem rather butt-hurt. Strange.
It’s “electricity” Einstein. ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
Overall a great lesson for EVangelists, JC. While I agree with your "geographic adj.", I'm not so convinced by the "overnight adj." as that seems to assume constant electricity demand through the 24 hour cycle.
What about wind power, surely that contributes regardless of time of day, agree not so much but some none the less.
Charging your EV with solar during the week-end at the light part of the day would be more accurate as to how to minimize costs. Agree the PM has no concept about charging an EV.
"What about wind power, surely that contributes regardless of time of day"
Rubbish, there are times when wind contribute statistically nothing for days on end.
My understanding is that wind tends to die down at night, so the wind power stations may still be generating but potentially at a lower output. I don't know numbers but I'm sure you can find out with just a little research.
@@MrXaeox I've seen days where the total output off all wind on the east Aus grid (from west SA to well up QLD) was 2% of rated capacity. And I haven't even looked very hard.
@@stusue9733 oh ok, I knew it was down overnight, but I was guessing like maybe 20-30% of total output capacity. I am surprised its as low as 2%.
What about the energy used to built wind turbines, the batteries they use, and the fact that these turbines cannot be recycled, but are left to rust when their life cycle is over? And just a thought to the wildlife that they injure while operating…..
I just took his numbers as provided because that's always a fun place to start. I didn't see his comment, but assume he didn't provide anything else but those numbers which as you noted aren't reasonably comparable numbers, so I set about making them more comparable. Petrol release about 34.2million joules of energy per litre when combusted in air/oxygen.This is 9.5 kWh of energy per litre of petrol. So if we take that 2300 grams of CO2 per litre of petrol and adjust it to how much CO2 per kWh worth of petrol, we get about 242 grams of CO2 per kWh worth of petrol. We're being far too kind to the petrol, though. A typical street legal car has an engine that's somewhere between about 20-40%. I assumed something on the higher end and used a value of 35%. So realistically, for each kWh of useful work out of that engine we need to divide that number by 35%, which gives us 691 grams of CO2 per kwH of useful work from the engine. While that number is noticeably higher than his quoted figure of 549 grams per kWh, if we're going to apply some adjustments to account for losses in the process, we need to do the same for the EV. I just ball-parked the number from my experience with power electronics and battery systems and used a round trip efficiency of 80%. Based on the numbers you used, that seems to be in the ball park, although there are significantly better performing systems out there, but this is still better than the Tesla Model 3 numbers by a reasonable margin. In any case, dividing that 549 number by 80% gives us 686 grams of CO2 per kWh of useful work. This is a very rough approximation, but should give you the idea that EVs powered by coal are probably in the same ball park for CO2 emissions compared to ICE vehicles. I'm guessing that he was thinking 549 is much less than 2300 so EVs win. I guess for his next trick he'll show us hot a 175cm nobody is taller than Hakeem the Dream because he's only 7' tall and 175 > 7.
I'm sure that when the sums are finally done, it will turn out thar EVs save no CO2 whatsoever in most countries, because there is no "spare" low carbon electricity available for charging them (it is already completely "spoken for" supplying existing electricity demand which was there long before EVs appeared.). Even in countries with abundant low carbon hydro energy such as parts of Scandinavia, the savings will be pretty slim once you take into account the cost of mining the raw materials, building an EV, and then disposing of the toxic waste at the end of life or when batteries need replacement. I just can't believe the money that's been wasted, the politicians that have been conned by charlatans etc.
"....politicians conned by charlatans" you have smashed it my friend - that is exactly the point - big tach has sold this snake oil to the govt. and now said govts. they realise they have been had there is no way they are going to admit it - they just double-down to save face. It will take a total govt. change to a party that has not "signed up" for sensible policies to prevail - that is as true here in the UK as in 'Stralia....
"....politicians conned by charlatans" you have smashed it my friend - that is exactly the point - big tach has sold this snake oil to the govt. and now said govts. they realise they have been had there is no way they are going to admit it - they just double-down to save face. It will take a total govt. change to a party that has not "signed up" for sensible policies to prevail - that is as true here in the UK as in 'Stralia....
On the contrary many places have surplus electricity at some point in the daily cycle. For most electrical devices the power they use is generated and consumed almost instantly as most electrical devices cannot store electricity. EVs can store electricity because they have big batteries. Here in Ontario Canada the power grid is about 85% from non greenhouse gas generating sources. Power in Ontario is generated by a provincial government corporation called Ontario Power Generation - OPG. I have a nice app on my phone that shows me that in the last hour, 9-10 PM OPG generated 19,503 MW/H of electricity. Of that 50% was nuclear, 19% hydro and 3% wind. None of these sources emit significant greenhouse gases. The remainder was from gas peaker plants that do emit CO2 and methane which are greenhouse gases. Of that 19,503 MW/H Ontario consumed 16,833 MW/H while it sold 2,670 MW/H mostly to NEW York State and Michigan State.
Nuclear plants and large hydro plants ie Niagara Falls, provide the baseload power while gas is turned on and off as required. Overnight demand is quite a bit lower than daytime demand but nuclear and large hydro plants are not easy to stop and start so this power is generated 24 x 7. There is so much excess power available in Ontario overnight that Ontario sells electricity between the hours of 11pm and 7am for 4 cents CDN, per KWH. Guess when most people charge their EVs. Overnight when OPG is just begging for their surplus electricity to be consumed. At the same time they have just started the process to build more nuclear generating plants for expected day time demands. This will result in even more surplus electricity available overnight for charging EVs.
If you have a home battery but no EV it also makes sense to charge a home battery overnight and use it to meet daytime and evening needs as during those hours power is 2 to 3 times as expensive than it is overnight.
EVs to the rescue!
Once again John, another excellent video. With regards to methane emissions from coal mines, open cut and high wall mines will, by virtue of their design, not be able to capture fugitive emissions. However, underground is a different case. Underground mines always drain methane before they start cutting coal due to the explosive nature of methane. I know of three power stations using drained methane in the Illawarra. Other mines will flare the gas off, not good, and others will allow the gas to slip quietly into the atmosphere. While using the gas for power generation helps reduce the use of the grid, it still produces CO2. But burning is far better than just letting the methane escape to the atmosphere.
So to calculate the equivalent tail pipe emissions you use the emissions from creating the electricity. And to calculate the petrol or diesel equivalent it magically turns up at the gas station with no emissions.
And you electively use the use case of charging overnight, vs, say the best use case of solar charging in the day or the average use case.
It’s OK you dont like EVs. Just don’t do a video like this and extrapolate its ‘findings’ to the point where the calculation is meaningless.
Charging over night would be "average use case".
@@stusue9733 It may be a fairly common use case, it might even be the mode, but this video chose the most CO2 emitting scenario to justify an already made conclusion.
If you want to look at the real impact with what John calls ‘facts’ then you would need to take into account all the ways EVs are charged and in you comparison look at the real emissions from ICE which includes fossil fuel production emissions.
And BTW if you added the fossil fuel production emissions then EVs would still win…as real studies have shown.
@@ObiePaddles You are exactly right.
Recently bought a mitsubishi outlander phev for my wife. She commutes to town every day about 23 miles round trip so almost all her driving is electric. And when we take our 600 mile trips to family then the gas engine takes over.
We have most of the benefits of a full ev without the huge heavy battery of a BEV. Best of both worlds and also price competitive too. And when you add in the co2 saved by not having to mine and manufacture a huge battery it's a win all around.
"price competitive too"
And only about $20k more(about 50% more base model, 30% top spec) you're going to have to drive a fair way.
look John it is unfair to use facts to win an argument
He did not win his argument. He used facts, yes. But not all the RELEVANT facts.
I saw a house yesterday, just down the road from me, they are ripping all the solar panels off their roof, and it isn't a small system. The tradies were smashing the electrical boxes off the sides of the (removed) panels with a hammer, so they aren't a salvage operation. (Adelaide suburbia).
HOW dare you use facts.
😆😆😆👍
Thanks John
EV fanboys….
Characterised by a hand down one’s trousers…
So where does all the waste heat go when charging your EV overnight in your attached garage?
Will it result in increased use of home AC?
Where do you think the heat goes genius!
Even here in the cloudy UK my EV gets all the charge it needs for 15k miles per year from our solar panels for 8 months of the year.
NB the UK is just about to close its last coal fired power station
LOL….so their power stations are fueled by…solar? Wind?
@@Inisfad Duh, u effwit. There are gas powered, nuclear powered and biomass power stations. Do keep up ffs.
@@Inisfad In Q1 this year 51% of the UKs electricity came from renewables and the remainder was gas and Nuclear.
My boyfriend does double your wife's mileage, in a year, carrying a van full of tools and machine parts...can't see an EV coping with that. We have on street parking, so like most people in the same situation, can't guarantee that we'll be able to park outside our house...so home charging would be almost impossible. Oh, and have you ever considered why all our coal fired power stations are closing, when so many other countries, especially China, are building new plants? As if our tiny island makes such a difference, on a global scale! 😂
@@Alantj22What happens when there are quite a few days a year in the UK renewables drops to less than a half of one percent supply of required demand?
Without 100% back up from reliable supplies, the cut in winter fuel allowances for pensioners will not make a lot of difference, just everyone freezes unless you have coal fires or wood burners, everything else needs electricity.
Should you not include the Co2 it costs to make that fuel?
Did you not hear that he excluded the fugitive emissions from coal mining? He also didn't include the CO² emissions from mining and transporting the coal, or the electrical losses in the generation, transmission, transformers etc. I think you'll find that that will be similar to the CO² from producing diesel and petrol.
So your entire argument relies on people charging their ev when the suns down? Most people drive around 30kms a day, you’re acting as if everyone who drives an ev has to charge from a depleted battery every when the suns down. I feel dumber having watched this.
His argument also relies on the assumption that the BASELOAD is somehow higher because someone is charging a battery.
Until the baseload needs to be increased to accommodate all the EVs charging at night, then the pollution level remains the same whether the energy is utilized or not.
Johnny and most of his following are complete stooges.
@@TeslaDo_d yeah it’s baffling how many people seem to have bought into this video with their blinders on.
I feel Paul knew what he was doing and knew it would get his crowd fired up. He gave the worst possible example of how to charge an ev and now his viewers think all ev owners deplete their batteries and require 100kwh of charge every night from coal powered stations.
I don’t even own an ev, I drive a hilux and still couldn’t help but notice how flawed this video is.
What about suckling the oil out of the ground and converting oil into diesel or petrol? At the refinery What about pumping the fuel into your car? With electric What about oil changes and transporting to the petrol station.
Oh FFS picking worst case scenarios again are we?
The grid has typically over 50% renewables in the NEM (eastern states) all day most days.
Its filthy at night, usually
Just checked the Open Electricity website (previously OpenNEM); total share of supply from renewables for the last 12 months is 38%. That’s pretty good but there’s a long way to go. Black and brown coal combined is about 56% of total production.
Looks like you need to do a WA version of this video since we are not included in "Australia's National Electricity Market"
You'll have to work that out for yourself.
I still don't know why the roofs & bonnets of electric cars aren't solar panels. I mean... logic!
It might just charge the key fob and the car's wireless charger. Maybe the radio if you are lucky.
Because William Shockley and Hans-Joachim Queisser
Google it. It's an expensive, pointless idea.
Are you joking or just really bad at maths?
A home solar panel about 1.7m x 1.0m produces about 440 watts - less than half a kilowatt. A 40 year-old 3 cylinder 1.0 litre Daihatsu Charade produced about 40 kilowatts, about 90 times more. If you can think of a way to fit 90 solar panels to a hatchback, and drive only in bright sunlight then go for it! Do you start to see the problem?
Well so I have solar panels on my roof and only charge during the day. What are your feelings about that? Also electricity can be generated from many sources not only coal and gas.
Your disdain for anything EV is pretty clear.......getting a bit boring actually
Point to on this doll where the facts touched you
Fighting the scourge of government mandated EVs is the most important issue in the automotive world today.
John is telling it like it is , like that time in last video that compared the drop in EV sales against the increase in diesel sales not petrol sales for some reason i don't know why am not an auto expert. i would have thought current EV's are more in competition from petrol cars and the drop in sales where account of high interest rates so shows what i know. keep up the good work mate
Hes hating on Ev s, but trying to sell battery powered flashlights 🤣😂🤣 I like the internet..
What a stupid comparison.
Cherry picking the numbers to support your position is not exactly a novel idea
Fact 1: The Model Y Performance is not the most efficient EV, and I'm sure it's not the norm. The Model Y RWD is the most popular of the Tesla models in Australia, But you didn't choose that one because according to that German report you fished from the internet, only shows about 15% inefficiency. And by the way, kudos for finding an obscure study done in 2020 (which is why there was no Model Y on the list) that showed the chargng inefficiency of EVs but not exclusively AC charging (as you claimed). Most studies I've seen and the videos on the subject show a 10 to 15 percent when AC charging, not DC (or fast) charging. But even if you want to take this number, an increase of 25% from 75 kWh is NOT 100 kWh, but actually 93 kWh. While I believe the real number should be maybe 85 kWh, which changes a little your calculation, now it's 0.2266 kWh/km . But like I said, this is NOT the norm, a lot more EVs are more efficient than that. And I'm not sure the AC in an EV is drawing 25% of the energy, maybe like 10%. So in fact your 221g CO2 / km is actually more like 200g CO2 / km.
Fact 2: Not all EVs charge from the grid at night. So on average, we can halve this number since some EVs charge from the batteries of the solar system. Also, most electric grids showing solar also have batteries that are designed to work at night, so your adding these percentages is not really justified.
But for the sake of the argument, let's go with the most inefficient EV and dirtiest electric grid. I will go with 200g CO2 / km.
Fact 3 (Easily ignored most of the time). IF you must calculate how much CO2 is produced when we generate electricity, shouldn't we look at how much CO2 is produced when we extract the oil, refine it and transport to and from the refinery to the pump? I'll use the numbers from a recent study of "Well to Wheel" emissions, and that is around 500g per km on average per car (no heavy trucks). And from that study we have this quote "CO2 makes up 95% to 99% of total vehicle GHG emissions. The remaining emissions, comprised of methane, nitrogen dioxide, and hydrofluorocarbons, are not shown."
Fact 4: Even if the CO2 emission are equal between EVs and ICE cars (which are not even close), the EV polution is kept outside of the city since most electricity is generated outside of the populated area. At least from the health consideration, it is more important than looking at the CO2 emission in total.
After all is being said, there is no way to reduce the CO2 emissions from gasoline cars, while the EVs can only get cleaner. Generating electricity from a renewable source is not only better for the environment but actually cheaper. Even if I believe that the battery technology is not yet mature enough to be mainstream, I'm sure that the future is at least going in that direction. I"m maybe an optimist, we might never solve the "holy grail" of the battery technology, but now the solution is acceptable for most people driving 50km / day in the city, which is about 95% of the globe population.
Wow!
he keeps getting the dead dinosaur thing wrong. The primary sources of coal are the remains of ancient plants, not animals
He knows this. The dead dinosaur appeals to his sense of humour.
People pointing it out likely gives him an added chuckle.
People who take obvious jokes literally are hilariously depressing.
Thankyou for the fairly accurate breakdown. My daughter has a little Suzuki Swift and with her gentle driving it manages even better than a Hybrid to be honest. Why?, because it's a small light car and has a 1.4 litre engine. Hope Mr Wang chimes back in.
Exactly the same mistake as last time. You included most of the Well-to-Tank emissions for the EV, but completly missed the Well-to-Tank emissions for petrol. Petrol does not magically appear out of nowhere - it has to be extracted, refined and transported to the pump before we can burn it. This produces CO2, and lots of it. When you add that to your equation the EV is definitly better than ICE or Hybrid. It is not surprising that if you leave out a major part of the CO2 production for one type of fuel, but include it for the other, the numbers end up being off.
Where do you see that he’s including the “well to tank” emissions for the electrical power generation ?
@@Clyde-2055 Well-to-Tank is the emmissions from creating or generating the fuel and having it in the tank. With EVs, that is the CO2 generated by producing electricity. With ICE, it is the CO2 generating through extration, refining and transport of fuel. Tank-to-Wheels is the emissions produced by driving the car (burning petrol, for example).
@@easterbilby - So by your definition, he must include the extraction/refinement/distribution of the oil for the ICE, AND he needs to add the extraction/refinement/mining/transportation of the oil, natural gas and coal to the power plant for the EV.
Coal does not magically appear at the power station, genius...
@@AutoExpertJC no, but petrol does not magically appear in the tank. If you calculate the CO2 making electricty, you also need to calculate the CO2 to make petrol. It does not take a genius to figure that out.
What about impact of petrol production
So dude, you keep forgetting to add the 40% to tailpipe emissions to account for the GHG emissions associated with extraction, refining and transport of oil and don't forget the fugitive emissions which are now reckoned to be 3X higher than previously estimated. I also like how you don't factor in any solar charging at all when so many home chargers actually prioritise solar charging. And again no allowance for the greening of the grid over the next few years.
Repeating the same numpty doesn't make it less numpty.
@@stusue9733 ?% of CO2 on top off tailpipe emissions, tell me. It isn't zero which is what old Elmer FUD here is saying
He's deliberately informing people without solar. Also, are you going to add extraction and fugitive emissions for mining lithium and all those elements for EVs?
He didn't count coal fugitive so touche
@@xpusostomos his errors don't cancel out, sorry.
John, after also doing some research I think you are not presenting the whole picture. You should be subtracting the renewable power from the total. The graphs I have seen show renewables at approximately 100 TW and overall production about 250 TW in Australia. Both are climbing, however, renewables are increasing more quickly. Every year the numbers of CO2/km will decrease. We did not get here in a day and we won’t get out of dirty power in a day. I drive a diesel to tow my 5500# travel trailer and a BEV for everything else. I live where 100% of the power is green and feel no guilt.
Are you getting a commission from the Petroleum Industry for this stuff?
Yeah. They back in a pantech full of used $50s every Friday arvo.
@@AutoExpertJC Just out of interest, is that Friday this week or next? Asking for a friend.
@@stusue9733 Every would include both weeks. Do some thinking for yourself.
I wonder what the difference would be when considering the emissions produced during extraction then refining then transporting coal vs petrol. Considering the sheer number of petrol stations tankers need to attend, it must be substantial. Have you got the numbers for this?
Both are terrible. Coal is likely worse with methane released. Oil depends on crude source.
Worried about your car dealerships closing because of EV's, John? You're sounding desperate
No EV’S and crazy it’s better for the environment…. They are desperate…especially if you look at what is happening overseas. Fools, fools, fools, everybody cried. 😂as the song goes. 😂😂😂
Today, here in Australia, we still have RUclips channel extolling the virtues and the future of EVs. All the while the night sky is lit up with fires.
WORLD WIDE. there have been 511 thermal runaway incidents in EV batteries between 2010 and 2023
In Australia there have been 4
Meanwhile 1500 ICE vehicle fires are EXPECTED by the manufacturers per 100000 units sold, PER YEAR, Just in Australia.
@@wiretamer5710 Sorry but that is misinformation. Official figures came out recently and EV fires exceeded ICE vehicles.
I refuse to put on trousers for this