To everyone who decided to take this opportunity to say negative things about Adam's channel -- that's not cool. I love his channel and meant no disrespect to Adam. His videos are well researched and well delivered. I just wanted to explain that you can start with the same data and form 2 different opinions.
Thanks, Helen! You know I'm a big fan of yours! I suppose I do want to clarify one important thing. The video of mine that you're referencing is not an expression of MY opinion. It's a video in which I am simply presenting the view given by Dr. Diez-Gonzalez. He is giving his professional opinion, and I'm hardly in a position to challenge it. As I've said in other videos, I tend to cook white meat to 155-160ºF and let it coast the rest of the way. Personally, I just really dislike the gelatinous texture of chicken that isn't cooked all the way through, though I'm sure if I had it from your kitchen I could be persuaded! The USDA 165ºF guidance is obviously conservative - pasteurization is a function of both temperature and time, as you mention - slower, lower cooking methods absolutely can achieve the same antimicrobial results. However, I also think it's important to distinguish between cooking isolated breasts, as you're doing in this video, vs cooking a whole bird, where experts like Dr. Diez are particularly concerned with making sure everything in the cavity (where the digestive system formerly resided) is toast, particularly when birds are stuffed. FWIW, Dr. Diez is not the only expert I've spoken to who has speculated that some pathogenic bacteria might reach the interior of chicken via the lymphatic system, as opposed to the kind of mechanical contamination you discuss here. As you say, if there's any documentation to support that notion at all, it's obviously thin. But worth mentioning. The distinction with duck is a really interesting one that I've been researching for some time for an upcoming video, but I'm not sufficiently read-in to talk about it yet!
@@aragusea Totally agree, Adam! People who insist that their white meat be moist and flavorful without the aid of gravy kinda remind me of guys who insist that their lady-friends be fulfilled exclusively via one particular method without the aid of any supplemental methods. I mean they can insist all they want and it probably won't matter, but they definitely will sulk and feel as though the enterprise has been a failure if the mission objective has been achieved bilaterally.
@@smughomecook9066 So, the video of mine you're quoting from is not directed at people like Helen, who are simply cooking their food the way they like it. It was directed at people in my comment sections telling me that it's "wrong" for me to use gravy to improve relatively bland or dry meat, like turkey breast. I think that's a pretty meaningful distinction.
So basically health officials are hesitant to give out complex information that could be misunderstood, and so it’s just easier (and safer) to put out a short and simple tagline which everyone can follow so that nobody gets sick.
@@cassieoz1702 Yeah it can be really excessive, although I can certainly sympathize with the people whose job it is to put out health guidelines for a population that is poorly educated-there’s just too much risk of people misunderstanding, getting sick, and then finding an ambulance-chasing lawyer to raise hell, so it’s just simpler to tell people to cook their chicken to death so that doesn’t happen.
@@RichterPhallos Uh, no, it isn't. There is no misinformation here. The recommended temperatures are for killing off all harmful bacteria and parasites with no holding time. Going lower will require the cook to hold the meat at that temperature, with the time increasing the lower you go. Most restaurants are not going to hold your food for half an hour, even if they had the talent and tools to do so, so recommending 140 as safe would be malpractice. The FDA exists for food safety, not to make you a better cook. Their temperature guide is a recommendation, not a mandate. You are free to cook your meat less and take on the risk, however small it may be. You may even order raw or undercooked meat from restaurants as long as they put a warning on the menu. Edit: I just discovered that the USDA *does* give more specific information about cooking meat to lower temperatures, so all of the information in this video is there if you need it specifically from the government. Of course, most people don't care that much about cooking and just want a basic, easy to remember number.
eh not really. health officials put out this info and it’s easily accessible, but evidenced by you’re comment the average person isn’t going to do that reading.
Chicken tataki is more common (where the outside is quickly seared, but the interior is raw. It's a regional dish, not something national (though you can get anything in Tokyo). Obviously you'll want to go to a place specializing in it, but it's worth trying at least once.
Keep in mind that, just like places that serve medium rare burgers or raw steak, most of the time when you are doing that, you are being very careful about sourcing your product, and not just buying it from the local grocery. Most places that do chicken sashimi in Japan do it using very specific chickens (Blue Feet, bred in Canada and far less prone to Salmonella) and raised, killed, and prepared in very specific ways to earn a “Sashimi grade chicken” label.
There's 100% room for both Helen's and Adam's philosophies, especially because he's clarified that he'd cook chicken to 140-145 degrees for himself but that he's often cooking for his children or older family members and sources regular supermarket ingredients most of the time. Informed risk is a super-important concept that ceases to exist when other people are the subjects to it. Chicken thighs for dinner it is! :P
The informed risk? -Showing graphs of people hospitalized with current standards in place doesn't represent what it would look like if everyone suddenly started taking her advice.
@@madthumbs1564 Yes, informed risk. You take risks getting out of bed in the morning. On any given day you could end up in a hospital, or dead. The world is not "safe."
@@madthumbs1564 The information to inform your risk is there if you know how to interpret it. As her graphs showed, only 420/26,500 hospitalizations result in death, about 1.6%, and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cases per year. The CDC estimates that there are 1.2 million illnesses due to salmonella poisoning each year (about half of these are poultry-borne). So of those cases, 2.2% result in hospitalization and 0.035% result in death. Fatality rates increase for older cohorts and the immunocompromised, but for a healthy young person choosing to eat more succulent chicken is a very small risk to take.
I love that the community of academic cooking youtubers overall can have such informative and nuanced discussions of food. The differing perspectives are very helpful.
@@Vanguardkl age doesn't mean knowledge. these "idiots" as you called them asked advice from professionals - people who spent their lives researching and studying this in labs that have the equipment and knowledge base under needed conditions. older people who cook here and there only know what works for them and their families and rarely know any science behind anything they do.
You don't understand that this is about "insurance" (scare quotes because most of what we call insurance is actually insurance) liability. Nothing else. Just ask yourself: how many of the risks do you take on an everyday basis that isn't insured against? People like to blame lawyers but what's funding all of this is premiums paid into "insurance" that covers things that "insured" has direct control over the outcome of. This is the reason why virtually all of the fake insurance I just described is required by the threat of violence of government. Because no free market insurance would cover these kind of situations. It would either be unprofitable for them or prohibitively expensive for the insured. Since this is the situation that insurance companies are in they have to do other things to stay profitable and one of those things is lobbying for tighter regulations in the food biz. But the whole thing doesn't work if people aren't already risk averse to begin with. It's fear driving this, not politicians and lawyers. They're just following orders. Not an excuse by any means mind you.
If you're hesitant to use 140° you can use a final target of 150° with reasonable results. According to the USDA, chicken breast held at 150° for only 3 minutes is safe to eat.
This is what I do. I would honestly challenge Helen to tell any difference between the moistness of chicken breast or turkey breast _pulled_ at 150°F and allowed to rest and carry over. Even using non-injected poultry, the juice is practically pouring out of it at that temperature!
I set my remote thermometer to ring at 150 for bone in skin-on breasts. I then take the pan out, to rest, but I leave the thermometer in. After about 5 minutes it has gone past 165. So, if you cook it to 165, it will be about 180 when you eat it. I'm contemplating setting the thermometer to 145.
@@gwine9087 For catered events I have to err on the side of overcooked because when you're cooking 30 breasts on each sheetpan there's always the risk of a single thick one being a bit too pink. That said, at home I would at pull at the temp that gets me a rested temp of 150° at the most. And to be sure its safe see that it spends 3 minutes at 150.
A chicken wearing sunglasses and a leather jacket may simply be choosing to express herself through clothing. The idea that how a chicken dresses renders them "dangerous" is outdated and frankly marginalizes chickens who wish to safely and constructively participate in countercultural behavior. /s
Chicken fight!...Chicken fight! That's dangerous! In one corner, we have the Italain chef, Adammmmm Ragusea! In the other corner we have the reigning champion, the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia known to all in America as the incomparable Helen Rennie. And when she's not cooking or boxing, she's singing her heart out to tunes such as "You and Me Against The World", and "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady", and other boxing songs.
Thank you for the honest and heterodox discussion of food risk, real and imagined. Having been a French trained chef and restaurant owner, for over 35 years, I have prepared thousands of chicken breast, made gallons of salad dressings with raw yolks, and have cooked and served duck breast medium rare, without an issue. You appeal to your viewers’s common sense and give them credit having intelligence. Experience in the kitchen is the best teacher, so caution should be foremost, but there is a point when you just know what’s right. Obsessing on temperatures will usually ruin the dish. Pork butt on the other hand is very forgiving. You present your ideas delightfully, and cover all of the nuances of cooking, of which there are many. Thank you!
The science says that killing microbes is a function of BOTH temperature AND time. The 165F temperature is for "instant" kill. The chicken only needs to be at 165F for a moment. However, you can kill just as many microbes at lower temperatures if you hold them at those temperatures for a certain amount of time. That's too complicated for most people, so they just look at the "instant kill" temperature. For example, you can kill just as many microbes by holding chicken at 145F for 12 minutes or at 140F for 30 minutes.
@@madthumbs1564 Idk where The Spruce is getting it's data, but they are at best paraphrasing the USDA guidelines. According to the actual compliance guidelines (link below), heating chicken to 163F will kill almost all salmonella in less than 10 seconds. Heating meat to 145F for 8-13min (depending on fat content) will achieve a log 7 reduction in bacteria (which means it will kill 99.99999% of the bacteria). See their salmonella compliance guidelines here (relevant table in Appendix A on page 34): www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/bf3f01a1-a0b7-4902-a2df-a87c73d1b633/Salmonella-Compliance-Guideline-SVSP-RTE-Appendix-A.pdf?MOD=AJPERES#:~:text=As%20previously%20stated%2C%20establishments%20producing,the%20Poultry%20Time%2DTemperature%20Tables.
Helen, what a nice thoughtful discussion, covering all the angles and giving reasonable and rational talking points. We shouldn't have to think this is extraordinary but the way normal people act. Thank you!
Risk mitigation is always the key. You can never escape all risk, but you can lessen the number of vectors that have the potential to impact. Thus your overall risk is decreased. Love the last piece, and it is perhaps the most Important; paying closer attention to cross contamination and lessening those risks will impact the home and restaurant cook far more than taking chicken breast to 165 instead of 140. If your cutting board or knife is contaminated with raw chicken juice, you are far more likely to get sick from your salad than you are your 140 degree chicken!!! You have to choose the things that you focus in on!!!! As always a great video with interesting and worthwhile content. Thank you.
what I have been doing is cooking it to 145-150 for myself and 165 to other people just to be response-free. I am ok to take risk but just don't want to put knowing risk to others. I also drive more carefully when there are other people in my car. However, I have been eating 145-150 degree chicken for a long time, haven't get any thing yet... I also eat my duck breast at 135....and I eat duck a lot...maybe I am just lucky? I ground my own burger and I de-skin my own chicken and duck, I also get them from known sources. maybe that is why....I also wash my hand very carefully after I touch raw meat. any raw meat. I always follow the rule when cook for others or meat from unknown source.
For all the cook I subbed on youtube, I may like Helen the best. Chef John to me is like my favorite uncle, I just want to drink a beer with him and talk about food. Adam is like the guy in my project group who think he knows better method than everyone and being really annoying but sometime do give really good informations. it is more like 'well, that is just Adam...we like him, but he can be a bit much sometimes'. Joshua Weissman is the guy who has a rich dad and keep showing off how good his life is but I don't hate him because he does not really hurt anything and kind of cute. He also do have a style. what can I say, I like show offs...If you got it, show it. Helen is like my favorite professor, will answer my question honestly and will help me to find answer together if she did not know the answers. She give good information and never put her above anyone. And she make things enjoyable to do, I'd like to take her class if I ever near there.
Rebuswind there’s a nice little/new channel called chef basics with baz thats also pretty great - more on chef techniques and only just getting started but it’s gold if you’re looking for another good cooking channel. But yeah Helen is my fave too :)
I've watched both yours and Adam's videos on chicken safety and I'm very intrigued on how you found nothing on if there is anything inside the muscle, and I think that is something food experts would have researched a long time ago in order to definitively find the correct temperature. Great video as always
@@helenrennie Chicken fight!...Chicken fight! That's dangerous! In one corner, we have the Italain chef, Adammmmm Ragusea! In the other corner we have the reigning champion, the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia known to all in America as the incomparable Helen Rennie. And when she's not cooking or boxing, she's singing her heart out to tunes such as "You and Me Against The World", and "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady", and other boxing songs.
Thank you for this. I really enjoy both of your channels and advice. My mother and grandfather were both professional chefs and I even went through professional food safety inspection school. My mother and grandfather taught me to cook by touch (springiness) and sight (clear juices) and neither ever used a food thermometer. I would be willing to wager, 100% that they weren't ever hitting 165 F either. Things are not nearly as simple as people like to pretend much of the time. Many people especially have no concept of carryover heat either. I think that people really want to rely on a hard and fast rule that is quantifiable without any judgement. I was so happy when the USDA changed their recommendation for pork from 160 - 145! In the US, for some reason, most people even put their butter in the refrigerator...
@@PurtyPurple You can put it in there but you really don't have to. I keep the bulk of mine in the fridge but I always have at least one stick on the counter.
@@7HPDH yes, it definitely does. I keep the bulk of mine in the fridge but I always keep a couple of sticks out and ready to go. I use more ghee than butter because it is shelf stable and super simple to make. I usually buy 5 lbs of good butter then make it into ghee for that reason and its much higher smoke point. 8-)
What a great video. Love to have the reference to Adams channel, really helpful to hear both angles and keep it in mind when informing my own perspective!
That was really informative and well explained. Thank you. Now I have a better understanding of the whole situation, not just the dumbed down "Do this don't do that." The details make a difference.
@@swamidan277 I guess he's holding back lol Dude goes kind of hard on TikTok comments tho. He promoted Helen's channel a little while ago so I'm assuming he's avoiding confrontation this time?
Great video! As always, you bring science and facts to the discussion which results in clarity and understanding. I was not aware of Adam's channel. I'm going to check it out. Thanks!
So happy to see this video.... I have been cooking Bell and Evans chicken breasts to 145 for years and people rave about how juicy and tender the meat is.... best they've ever had they tell me.... and not one person has ever gotten sick.. As noted, Top quality meat and cleanliness during handling/prep is a must. And this applies to breasts only. Thighs I always cook to 170. Thank you again for posting your opinion on this.
I once had the misfortune to live for about 2 years on a farm with a huge chicken rearing and production centre that supplied one of the big budget supermarkets. I cannot begin to describe how vile it was. I've seen it all and now cook chicken until it falls off the bone.
They don't want a log 9 reduction of pathogens, they want a log 100 reduction. If they had it their way, they would have us cook the chicken in a pressure canner for 3 hours at sea level. But nobody's gonna follow that, so they'll just have to settle on 'some reduction of risk'.
As a Chef for many years I’ve never had a problem with cooking chicken to 140 (at least) to 145 degrees. My only concern was that people weren’t measuring the temp and leaving the very center still pink and raw. You should never leave any part of the breast raw...
I sous vide chicken breast with a little bit of extra virgin olive oil and liquid smoke, etc., and whatever herbs you choose, it's great! I finish it with a weed torch.
Agree about informed risk and would add the common sense caveat emptor - buyer beware. 1. The reason I subscribe to your channel is you explain why along with how. 2. You also provided a peek behind the industrial curtain that most consumers never hear. I go back and forth between ‘better’ (organic?) and budget. Your video has given me much to think about. 3. And I think I will subscribe to Chef Adam’s channel as well. Is always good to learn from an expert who can inspire learning and is curious as well as skilled. Finally #4. In today’s climate of violent reaction and political ugliness, both you & Chef Adam show how differing opinions can be discussed intelligently, leaving each of us to choose our own way. THANK YOU.
The other important fact about the usda and local board of health standards is their concern it food processors for the masses - they don't want large scale food born illness, and possibly deaths - that is why they exist. Not that I want to kill my family but often when we think we have a stomach virus it's really food poisoning - yes it may spread at different rates - a young child or elderly person may get sick from last nights chicken dinner and you may take up to 48 hrs to feel the effects and think you caught it. I'm not disagreeing with you at all - we all take risks we just need to be informed - and I love sushi! Thanks for your always well thought out and informative videos.
finally a rational explanation with supported data on safe cooking temps. in 1968 i was at a little hotel on the German Rhine when a small group of medical doctors were holding a professional society seminar. One evening they grilled a large pork roast and invited my family to join them. The meat was served medium with a pinkish center. the take-aways is, safety starts with the proper processing, and ends with common sense.
Very interesting discussion about a controversial topic! I loved how well you explained yourself and how you used a responsible combination of scientific research, expert opinions and personal anecdote. I found myself very defensive at first about cooking chicken to at least 165, but turns out it is not that simple. Thank you very much for this enlightening video!
Thank you for the explanation. I hadn’t been quite as curious about chicken as I have been about ground beef and you answered both questions. BTW, I LOVE duck but I’ve never cooked it before. Now I have a project, and I won’t tell you all about years of skydiving!
Helen thank you so much for doing this video! Love it! This is such a challenging topic because nobody will agree on the right answer. I understand the USDA's position on calling 165 degree chicken safe because it is indeed safe probably 100% of the time. However, I am also risky like you and prefer my chicken tender, so I pull it at around 150 degrees and let it rise up on its own. According to Kenji's research, 150 degrees for 2.8 minutes is as safe as 165 degrees instantly. And it is so much more tender than 165 degree breast.
First I love this, 2 of my 3 favorite food channels thinking and working off the other's work is fantastic, professional disagreement like this is still a form of collaboration and I love to see it! I should temp my food more, but I just cook chicken until juices run clear and it begins to be opaque all the way through so it is probably under done. It wasn't strange for my grandmother to give us raw bacon and the like growing up, so I might be a little too cavalier now!
Adam isn't disagreeing with her, he's playing it safe, as he's clearly stated if he cooks for himself, he doesn't mind cooking chicken to a lower temperature, but since he has kids, he cooks it to 165.
It depends on the bulk and temperature at which you cook. I roast my chicken at 450-475F. And a whole chicken breast (not split or filleted) is very bulky. After being in the oven for about 30 min the outside gets very hot. If you leave a thermometer in it, it keeps going up for good 10-15 min (depending on the size). I don't cut into it until the temp starts to go down which is typically 15-20 minutes after it's out of the oven. Thighs will not go up much because of their shape, because they are at a higher temp than breasts, and because there is a bone running through them. This doesn't mean that a boneless chicken breast cooked at a lower temp will do that.
Helen Rennie that's interesting. I typically roast chicken (spatchcock) at 350 degrees/twenty minutes per pound. I have seen several cooking channels lately that roast chicken at 450. I will try roasting at a higher temperature. Thanks!
@@helenrennie "If you leave a thermometer in it" The metal of the thermometer is a much more effective conductor of heat than the meat itself. Have you tried probing with an instant-read at intervals instead of leaving the metal probe in the meat the whole time? Just curious about your testing method. My initial reaction was the same as Appalachia Fishing Club's, but I could see certain conditions _maybe_ resulting in a 15°F rise, only because 10°F carryover isn't uncommon of for large roasts. In fact, I always assume a 10°F carryover for a rib roast, because I'd rather it come out a little under if anything.
Professional cook for 15 years. Cooked plenty of ribeyes and filets on a charbroiler running about 600 degrees Fahrenheit and they would invariably jump 20 degrees after pulling them and resting for less than five minutes...
The last Salmonella outbreak I heard about on the news was from onions. I’m pretty sure people eat those raw in salads and in burgers. I think people get fixated on some ideas regarding risk management that it builds a sense of false security. And meanwhile “experts” are so worried about not saying the “wrong” thing that they often give such conservative guidance or use so many qualifiers that either their advice is impractical or so nuanced that it’s meaningless.
Mike Schwartz do a google search for salmonella and click the news tab. How far down do you have to go to see chicken? I don’t have a single story on page 1. I have fungus, micro greens, onions and peaches. So yea, ok. Chicken is “a” risk. But I’m seeing the actual outbreaks coming from the things nobody talks about while they are too busy turning chicken to rubber. That’s all I’m saying. Ever eaten raw cookie dough? I sample it every time I make cookies and the sugar and fat are more likely to kill me than Salmonella will.
@whatsupdate, consider that those outbreaks were newsworthy precisely because they were unusual. anyway, i agree with the spirit of what you’re saying, and i especially agree re sugar and fat doing more damage than salmonella. i just get nervous when i see “experts” in quotes, probably from spending too much time as a flat-earth spectator.
@@whatsupdate Do you not understand basic cause and effect? Salmonella infection is rare with chicken *because* most people cook it to 165. The onions gave people salmonella *because* they didn't cook the ones that were infected. Onions having salmonella being more newsworthy is *because* it's more unexpected and dangerous due to people eating them raw. That you find the current guidelines too "impractical" and "nuanced" says more about yourself, because most people have been following them with no issue.
Good and thorough treatment of the topic Helen. Hospitalizations is one metric, but lets face it, we've all had a lot of GI-issues that we attribute (rightly or wrongly) to our food that didn't result in such severity as to seek medical advice but nonetheless is still unpleasent. However I agree with your informed risk argument and cooking to temperature is only one of many steps we take to ensure hygiene. E.g. cooking to temperature properly vs not properly washing cutting boards or knives, letting chicken stand at room temperature ect the latter two seems far more risky (my opinion) than not getting the heat distribution in your meat perfect.
What an honest exploration of the topic. I wish more people took this approach to challenging their own beliefs. Thank you for your intellectual honesty!
Chicken breasts were practically made for sous vide. Two hours at 145 is my method then cubed for something like a pot pie or seared for everything else.
Thank you. 1. I have been feeding people since 1972. Never got anyone sick. 2. We survived for a few years as a species before refrigeration. 3. Mass animals processing is dirty. 4. Check your source. 5. If you can't guarantee your source, your skill, your guests, then yes. Follow the recommended temps. But if you don't fall into that category, cook well, share often, and contribu money to your local food bank. Oh county your blessings Thanks Helen. Gods, I live rationality! 🙏❤️👍😁😎
Thank you very much for this informative video. I appreciate that you leave links for the data and statistics to back up your view while making it clear that it is your choice and everyone can, and should, make their own choice. I haven't yet watched your thermometer video but I know that the margin of error for placing a thermometer in thin cuts of meat is so narrow that, for me, I never use it other than for thick cuts. I just look for no pink in chicken - which is a bit of a fallacy itself; there are proteins in chicken near the bones that can leave the pink color even when fully cooked. But when the breast has lost all translucence but is still juicy, that's the perfection I strive for (but don't hit as often as I wish).
Number one; Adam and Helen both Rock!... about 15 years ago my husband of 34 years started cooking. I would come home to medium rare pork and medium-rare chicken breast. I was so freaked out about both. I don't know what they've done to our pigs? But you don't have to cook them well done anymore and we all have known that for a while. A chicken breast not cooked to 165 degrees is absolutely succulent... I had to eat crow for my disapproval. But it truly was delicious 😋
So Helen, would you adjust your final temperature for turkey breast? How about duck breast? How about duck breast medium rare as I have heard? I would be using bone-in, skin on.
Didn't even know who Adam was till I saw this video.Looks like an expert on every thing.I go to 155 and thats fine for me.Love your pan cooked cabbage.I add onions first.Best I ever had.
If all you know of my work is that particular video, you might note that I was not presenting my opinion as expert. I simply interviewed Dr. Diez, and told my audience what he said. He's the expert.
Hi Helen, I am from Singapore. Over here, the Chinese eats a lot of chicken whereby the chicken is steamed whole. After the chicken is cut for serving, the bone marrow is still red. Is this undercooked? This Hainan chicken rice is very popular.
My impression of US food safety has always been that rules aren't put into place until there's been both a problem and a solution. Then the solutions get refined as various lobbying groups try and get exceptions carved out. There was a major change a few years ago after heavy lobbying from the pork industry. Prior to that effort, all pork had to be cooked to the same Temps as poultry.
I've contracted salmonella twice when I was an inexperienced home cook and I'm certain it was due to cross contamination with raw poultry and not undercooked chicken. While learning to cook I bit into undercooked meats a bunch and while gross...I never got sick. Following raw food handling procedures I have never gotten food poisoning. Doesn't mean it's not possible or that temps don't matter I just think it's secondary to proper food handling and sanitizing.
Hi Helen. My grandson got salmonella from Foster Farms chicken. The salmonella, went to his brain and he had to get brain surgery to remove it. In court, they asked Foster Farms if the salmonella had been fixed. They said no because the FDA does not require them to not sell chicken without salmonella. The crazy thing is that he didn't even eat the chicken. His grandmother was fixing the chicken, my grandson touched the counter where she was fixing the chicken. I'll never eat Foster Farms products. Salmonella strains can be traced back to a specific factory. Every year, they say that salmonella gets more and more immune to antibiotics and is way more dangerous than people realize. This comment is just for your readers to know that they do have to be very careful preparing chicken. Thanks for listening.
When I lived in Japan, I ate it, it was great actually. I was hesitant at first but the chickens are super fresh there which is why theirs limited risk.
Adam's information is absolutely correct and the very safest way to prepare chicken. But I'm still Team Helen on whitemeat chicken temperatures :) (And dark meat chicken temperatures too) Go Helen!
As long as the internal temp holds around (I believe) 135-145 F for the right amount of time, it’s safe. I’ve never heard 20 min, I think it’s more like 5 min. But it’s best to find the chart. But with all that said, cook your chicken with low heat (250-300F) and it will stay tender, even around 165F.
All I know is that I have gotten salmonella from undercooked chicken breast and it was just awful. I appreciate your information and education on this topic but no thank you. ;)
Apparently it's very possible for chickens to develop a systemic salmonella infection that permeates the meat, and also gets into the chicken's reproductive trace, which is why raw or undercooked eggs may contain dangerous levels of salmonella. I personally like the texture and taste of protein foodss very thoroughly cooked - chicken, turkey, burgers, even eggs (and I buy Bell & Evans poultry products a lot of the time).
Chickens and other poultry, even on large free range farms have a tendency to eat where they defecate. It is because of this that rates of fecal bacterial infections are higher than other livestock. Seriously, I've watched a pet chicken with an entire acre of territory go number 2; then turn around and eat the tiny remaining solid bits. As with any animal protien, the temperature at which it is sufficiently pasteurized for human consumption is highly variable based primarily on the length of time required to kill off the overwhelming majority of harmful pathogens throughout the meat. 140° is perfectly safe if that temperature is held for long enough.
My takeaway from this is that if the chicken piece is whole and intact and it looks fresh and clean, then there is no problem with cooking it to a lower temperature. If the chicken is mangled, not so much, it's safer to go to a higher temperature.
Chicken that has been injected with brine does not necessarily look any different to unbrined chicken. You would have to look for bone-in skin-on pieces that say "no brine added" to be completely safe. Or, just hold at a lower temperature for longer (up to 30 minutes for 140.)
Great job! I have had over done chicken breast get stuck in my throat on more than one occasion. I also love tartare and mett. I have gotten sick from tartare one time in Normandy, never stopped me from ordering it again. Glad I found your channel
Thank you for the very interesting video helen! Would it be possible to have a video on cross contamination dos and donts in the kitchen? I tend to be lazy bleaching my sink after im done preparing chicken.. we haven't gotten sick yet.. but what can i be doing wrong?
I have a completely different risk tolerance for food-borne illness (largely due to being on immunosuppressants), but I respect the way this video methodically explained the specific risks involved and the limitations of our collective understanding of food safety. Warning against the dangers of cross-contamination is so important, and you make that point well.
What I've read is that 165 is, as you said, a "safe" answer. The real story is that it's a combination of time and temperature, so 145-150 degrees plus plenty of time at that temperature is as effective as 165 for a few seconds. Also, if you don't have a sous vide rig, an ordinary induction burner on the lowest heat can poach chicken at not much over 150 degrees for as long as you like. Just keep checking with a Thermopen or whatever, it works great.
To everyone who decided to take this opportunity to say negative things about Adam's channel -- that's not cool. I love his channel and meant no disrespect to Adam. His videos are well researched and well delivered. I just wanted to explain that you can start with the same data and form 2 different opinions.
Thanks, Helen! You know I'm a big fan of yours! I suppose I do want to clarify one important thing. The video of mine that you're referencing is not an expression of MY opinion. It's a video in which I am simply presenting the view given by Dr. Diez-Gonzalez. He is giving his professional opinion, and I'm hardly in a position to challenge it. As I've said in other videos, I tend to cook white meat to 155-160ºF and let it coast the rest of the way. Personally, I just really dislike the gelatinous texture of chicken that isn't cooked all the way through, though I'm sure if I had it from your kitchen I could be persuaded! The USDA 165ºF guidance is obviously conservative - pasteurization is a function of both temperature and time, as you mention - slower, lower cooking methods absolutely can achieve the same antimicrobial results. However, I also think it's important to distinguish between cooking isolated breasts, as you're doing in this video, vs cooking a whole bird, where experts like Dr. Diez are particularly concerned with making sure everything in the cavity (where the digestive system formerly resided) is toast, particularly when birds are stuffed. FWIW, Dr. Diez is not the only expert I've spoken to who has speculated that some pathogenic bacteria might reach the interior of chicken via the lymphatic system, as opposed to the kind of mechanical contamination you discuss here. As you say, if there's any documentation to support that notion at all, it's obviously thin. But worth mentioning. The distinction with duck is a really interesting one that I've been researching for some time for an upcoming video, but I'm not sufficiently read-in to talk about it yet!
omg, whew - i CANNOT handle another divorce
@@aragusea Totally agree, Adam! People who insist that their white meat be moist and flavorful without the aid of gravy kinda remind me of guys who insist that their lady-friends be fulfilled exclusively via one particular method without the aid of any supplemental methods. I mean they can insist all they want and it probably won't matter, but they definitely will sulk and feel as though the enterprise has been a failure if the mission objective has been achieved bilaterally.
@@safe The reason is because Helen messaged me about this, so here I am.
@@smughomecook9066 So, the video of mine you're quoting from is not directed at people like Helen, who are simply cooking their food the way they like it. It was directed at people in my comment sections telling me that it's "wrong" for me to use gravy to improve relatively bland or dry meat, like turkey breast. I think that's a pretty meaningful distinction.
So basically health officials are hesitant to give out complex information that could be misunderstood, and so it’s just easier (and safer) to put out a short and simple tagline which everyone can follow so that nobody gets sick.
... in the world centre of liability litigation 🙄 I also think US is the only country that recommends hot water bathing pickles and even some jams
@@cassieoz1702 Yeah it can be really excessive, although I can certainly sympathize with the people whose job it is to put out health guidelines for a population that is poorly educated-there’s just too much risk of people misunderstanding, getting sick, and then finding an ambulance-chasing lawyer to raise hell, so it’s just simpler to tell people to cook their chicken to death so that doesn’t happen.
Misinform the public for their own good. Right or wrong, that's what that is.
@@RichterPhallos Uh, no, it isn't. There is no misinformation here. The recommended temperatures are for killing off all harmful bacteria and parasites with no holding time. Going lower will require the cook to hold the meat at that temperature, with the time increasing the lower you go. Most restaurants are not going to hold your food for half an hour, even if they had the talent and tools to do so, so recommending 140 as safe would be malpractice.
The FDA exists for food safety, not to make you a better cook. Their temperature guide is a recommendation, not a mandate. You are free to cook your meat less and take on the risk, however small it may be. You may even order raw or undercooked meat from restaurants as long as they put a warning on the menu.
Edit: I just discovered that the USDA *does* give more specific information about cooking meat to lower temperatures, so all of the information in this video is there if you need it specifically from the government. Of course, most people don't care that much about cooking and just want a basic, easy to remember number.
eh not really. health officials put out this info and it’s easily accessible, but evidenced by you’re comment the average person isn’t going to do that reading.
Wow, just hearing about chicken sashimi made me shiver...
Chicken tataki is more common (where the outside is quickly seared, but the interior is raw. It's a regional dish, not something national (though you can get anything in Tokyo). Obviously you'll want to go to a place specializing in it, but it's worth trying at least once.
Keep in mind that, just like places that serve medium rare burgers or raw steak, most of the time when you are doing that, you are being very careful about sourcing your product, and not just buying it from the local grocery. Most places that do chicken sashimi in Japan do it using very specific chickens (Blue Feet, bred in Canada and far less prone to Salmonella) and raised, killed, and prepared in very specific ways to earn a “Sashimi grade chicken” label.
I would be game to try some
I've had it before in Japan - the texture is nice, but it doesn't really taste like much. I'll stick with fish sashimi!
That is what they will serve me in hell 🤢
There's 100% room for both Helen's and Adam's philosophies, especially because he's clarified that he'd cook chicken to 140-145 degrees for himself but that he's often cooking for his children or older family members and sources regular supermarket ingredients most of the time. Informed risk is a super-important concept that ceases to exist when other people are the subjects to it. Chicken thighs for dinner it is! :P
Doesn't really matter, because it can be pasteurized at lower temperatures.
If the temperature you cook your chicken at is a philosophy, we’re in trouble. :-)
The informed risk? -Showing graphs of people hospitalized with current standards in place doesn't represent what it would look like if everyone suddenly started taking her advice.
@@madthumbs1564 Yes, informed risk. You take risks getting out of bed in the morning. On any given day you could end up in a hospital, or dead. The world is not "safe."
@@madthumbs1564 The information to inform your risk is there if you know how to interpret it. As her graphs showed, only 420/26,500 hospitalizations result in death, about 1.6%, and that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the number of cases per year. The CDC estimates that there are 1.2 million illnesses due to salmonella poisoning each year (about half of these are poultry-borne). So of those cases, 2.2% result in hospitalization and 0.035% result in death. Fatality rates increase for older cohorts and the immunocompromised, but for a healthy young person choosing to eat more succulent chicken is a very small risk to take.
I love that the community of academic cooking youtubers overall can have such informative and nuanced discussions of food. The differing perspectives are very helpful.
Just listen to an older person who has cooked for 30 years not these idiots
@@Vanguardkl age doesn't mean knowledge. these "idiots" as you called them asked advice from professionals - people who spent their lives researching and studying this in labs that have the equipment and knowledge base under needed conditions. older people who cook here and there only know what works for them and their families and rarely know any science behind anything they do.
"There is nothing wrong with risk, if it is an informed risk" is so profound it should be printed on banners across the world.
Yeah, it has to do with informed consent. Consent isn't just for the bedroom
You don't understand that this is about "insurance" (scare quotes because most of what we call insurance is actually insurance) liability. Nothing else. Just ask yourself: how many of the risks do you take on an everyday basis that isn't insured against?
People like to blame lawyers but what's funding all of this is premiums paid into "insurance" that covers things that "insured" has direct control over the outcome of. This is the reason why virtually all of the fake insurance I just described is required by the threat of violence of government. Because no free market insurance would cover these kind of situations. It would either be unprofitable for them or prohibitively expensive for the insured.
Since this is the situation that insurance companies are in they have to do other things to stay profitable and one of those things is lobbying for tighter regulations in the food biz.
But the whole thing doesn't work if people aren't already risk averse to begin with. It's fear driving this, not politicians and lawyers. They're just following orders. Not an excuse by any means mind you.
Welcome to the banking and insurance industry.
@@PieterZijerveld The nanny state didn't take over; we hired it...
@@GeoffBosco Fed bailouts took risk right out of it.
If you're hesitant to use 140° you can use a final target of 150° with reasonable results. According to the USDA, chicken breast held at 150° for only 3 minutes is safe to eat.
This is what I do. I would honestly challenge Helen to tell any difference between the moistness of chicken breast or turkey breast _pulled_ at 150°F and allowed to rest and carry over. Even using non-injected poultry, the juice is practically pouring out of it at that temperature!
@@bloodgain I think she and I both could tell the difference. I'm a catering chef and I've literally cooked 10's of thousands of chicken breasts.
I set my remote thermometer to ring at 150 for bone in skin-on breasts. I then take the pan out, to rest, but I leave the thermometer in. After about 5 minutes it has gone past 165. So, if you cook it to 165, it will be about 180 when you eat it. I'm contemplating setting the thermometer to 145.
@@gwine9087 For catered events I have to err on the side of overcooked because when you're cooking 30 breasts on each sheetpan there's always the risk of a single thick one being a bit too pink. That said, at home I would at pull at the temp that gets me a rested temp of 150° at the most. And to be sure its safe see that it spends 3 minutes at 150.
@@bloodgain Your carry over depends a lot on cooking temperature.
am I the only one who imagines a "dangerous chicken" wearing sunglasses and a leather jacket on his motorcycle?
And brandishing a sawn-off shotgun in one hand.
@@carltomacruz9138 And his other hand is just a chainsaw.
Somethin bout youuuu maaaakes me feel like a daangerous
*CHICKENNN 🐓🏍🕶⛓*
A chicken wearing sunglasses and a leather jacket may simply be choosing to express herself through clothing. The idea that how a chicken dresses renders them "dangerous" is outdated and frankly marginalizes chickens who wish to safely and constructively participate in countercultural behavior. /s
Chicken fight!...Chicken fight! That's dangerous! In one corner, we have the Italain chef, Adammmmm Ragusea! In the other corner we have the reigning champion, the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia known to all in America as the incomparable Helen Rennie. And when she's not cooking or boxing, she's singing her heart out to tunes such as "You and Me Against The World", and "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady", and other boxing songs.
Thank you for the honest and heterodox discussion of food risk, real and imagined. Having been a French trained chef and restaurant owner, for over 35 years, I have prepared thousands of chicken breast, made gallons of salad dressings with raw yolks, and have cooked and served duck breast medium rare, without an issue.
You appeal to your viewers’s common sense and give them credit having intelligence. Experience in the kitchen is the best teacher, so caution should be foremost, but there is a point when you just know what’s right. Obsessing on temperatures will usually ruin the dish.
Pork butt on the other hand is very forgiving.
You present your ideas delightfully, and cover all of the nuances of cooking, of which there are many. Thank you!
The science says that killing microbes is a function of BOTH temperature AND time. The 165F temperature is for "instant" kill. The chicken only needs to be at 165F for a moment. However, you can kill just as many microbes at lower temperatures if you hold them at those temperatures for a certain amount of time. That's too complicated for most people, so they just look at the "instant kill" temperature. For example, you can kill just as many microbes by holding chicken at 145F for 12 minutes or at 140F for 30 minutes.
Hence, everyone "hates chicken breast." 😂
Not instant kill: '167 F for 10 minutes' - www.thespruceeats.com/tip-safe-cooking-temperatures-913410
@@madthumbs1564 Idk where The Spruce is getting it's data, but they are at best paraphrasing the USDA guidelines. According to the actual compliance guidelines (link below), heating chicken to 163F will kill almost all salmonella in less than 10 seconds. Heating meat to 145F for 8-13min (depending on fat content) will achieve a log 7 reduction in bacteria (which means it will kill 99.99999% of the bacteria).
See their salmonella compliance guidelines here (relevant table in Appendix A on page 34): www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/connect/bf3f01a1-a0b7-4902-a2df-a87c73d1b633/Salmonella-Compliance-Guideline-SVSP-RTE-Appendix-A.pdf?MOD=AJPERES#:~:text=As%20previously%20stated%2C%20establishments%20producing,the%20Poultry%20Time%2DTemperature%20Tables.
Which technique would give more tender results in a fully cooked chicken
@@kaoe145 More time at temperature.
As a New Englander, that camps in the summer, and has had Lyme, I had a good laugh over that line. Thank you for that, hahah.
Any camp adventures you got for us?
@@hegeliansours1312 Yeah, that one time he got Lyme
Helen is a powerhouse of the spoken word. She's an olympian speaker. She doesn't even breathe.
Some people can sing like this.
Helen, what a nice thoughtful discussion, covering all the angles and giving reasonable and rational talking points. We shouldn't have to think this is extraordinary but the way normal people act. Thank you!
Helen, you have become my favorite food channel on RUclips. Thank you for your well-reasoned and common sense approach to cooking chicken!
Helen I appreciate your reasoning and ability to see that there can be more than one answer. Best advice is that we should inform ourselves
Risk mitigation is always the key. You can never escape all risk, but you can lessen the number of vectors that have the potential to impact. Thus your overall risk is decreased. Love the last piece, and it is perhaps the most Important; paying closer attention to cross contamination and lessening those risks will impact the home and restaurant cook far more than taking chicken breast to 165 instead of 140. If your cutting board or knife is contaminated with raw chicken juice, you are far more likely to get sick from your salad than you are your 140 degree chicken!!! You have to choose the things that you focus in on!!!!
As always a great video with interesting and worthwhile content. Thank you.
Thank you, Helen! Love your videos & Adam’s as well.
what I have been doing is cooking it to 145-150 for myself and 165 to other people just to be response-free.
I am ok to take risk but just don't want to put knowing risk to others. I also drive more carefully when there are other people in my car.
However, I have been eating 145-150 degree chicken for a long time, haven't get any thing yet...
I also eat my duck breast at 135....and I eat duck a lot...maybe I am just lucky?
I ground my own burger and I de-skin my own chicken and duck, I also get them from known sources.
maybe that is why....I also wash my hand very carefully after I touch raw meat. any raw meat.
I always follow the rule when cook for others or meat from unknown source.
For all the cook I subbed on youtube, I may like Helen the best. Chef John to me is like my favorite uncle, I just want to drink a beer with him and talk about food. Adam is like the guy in my project group who think he knows better method than everyone and being really annoying but sometime do give really good informations. it is more like 'well, that is just Adam...we like him, but he can be a bit much sometimes'. Joshua Weissman is the guy who has a rich dad and keep showing off how good his life is but I don't hate him because he does not really hurt anything and kind of cute. He also do have a style. what can I say, I like show offs...If you got it, show it. Helen is like my favorite professor, will answer my question honestly and will help me to find answer together if she did not know the answers. She give good information and never put her above anyone. And she make things enjoyable to do, I'd like to take her class if I ever near there.
Who is Babish?
Rebuswind there’s a nice little/new channel called chef basics with baz thats also pretty great - more on chef techniques and only just getting started but it’s gold if you’re looking for another good cooking channel. But yeah Helen is my fave too :)
Rebuswind, you did not mention Kenji, Lopez-Alt with whom Helen and he had crossover videos with their channels.
I've watched both yours and Adam's videos on chicken safety and I'm very intrigued on how you found nothing on if there is anything inside the muscle, and I think that is something food experts would have researched a long time ago in order to definitively find the correct temperature. Great video as always
If you find anything, let me know.
@@helenrennie Chicken fight!...Chicken fight! That's dangerous! In one corner, we have the Italain chef, Adammmmm Ragusea! In the other corner we have the reigning champion, the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia known to all in America as the incomparable Helen Rennie. And when she's not cooking or boxing, she's singing her heart out to tunes such as "You and Me Against The World", and "Ain't No Way To Treat A Lady", and other boxing songs.
Thank you for this.
I really enjoy both of your channels and advice. My mother and grandfather were both professional chefs and I even went through professional food safety inspection school. My mother and grandfather taught me to cook by touch (springiness) and sight (clear juices) and neither ever used a food thermometer.
I would be willing to wager, 100% that they weren't ever hitting 165 F either.
Things are not nearly as simple as people like to pretend much of the time. Many people especially have no concept of carryover heat either. I think that people really want to rely on a hard and fast rule that is quantifiable without any judgement.
I was so happy when the USDA changed their recommendation for pork from 160 - 145!
In the US, for some reason, most people even put their butter in the refrigerator...
Butter doesn't go in the fridge?
I agree with you 100% but i only eat the chickens i slaughter.
@@PurtyPurple You can put it in there but you really don't have to. I keep the bulk of mine in the fridge but I always have at least one stick on the counter.
Jason Morgan It goes rancid much faster at room temp
@@7HPDH yes, it definitely does.
I keep the bulk of mine in the fridge but I always keep a couple of sticks out and ready to go.
I use more ghee than butter because it is shelf stable and super simple to make. I usually buy 5 lbs of good butter then make it into ghee for that reason and its much higher smoke point.
8-)
I cook chicken exactly how she said; Cook to 135* and let rest for 5 min., after resting the internal temp is around 140 - 145*.
I prefer chicken breast Sous Vide at 149°F for 2 hours. Succulent, juicy, literally fork tender.
I truly appreciate your factual honestly. Thank you, you have absolutely influenced my cooking!
Youre such a gangster when you explain this shit, its great lmao
What a great video. Love to have the reference to Adams channel, really helpful to hear both angles and keep it in mind when informing my own perspective!
That was really informative and well explained. Thank you. Now I have a better understanding of the whole situation, not just the dumbed down "Do this don't do that."
The details make a difference.
cant wait to see adam’s 600 word essay in response to this video
I can wait.
Tl;dr It's not temperature it's time and temperature. For chicken breast, 140f 28min, 145f 9min, 150 3 min, 155 48sec, 160 15sec, 165
I like the dude but we all know it's coming, just give it time lol
@@OldManJenkins69 he's being a tricky bugger this time. he ain't out in the open, but hiding by replying to certain far out comments.
@@swamidan277 I guess he's holding back lol Dude goes kind of hard on TikTok comments tho. He promoted Helen's channel a little while ago so I'm assuming he's avoiding confrontation this time?
Great video! As always, you bring science and facts to the discussion which results in clarity and understanding. I was not aware of Adam's channel. I'm going to check it out. Thanks!
So happy to see this video.... I have been cooking Bell and Evans chicken breasts to 145 for years and people rave about how juicy and tender the meat is.... best they've ever had they tell me.... and not one person has ever gotten sick..
As noted, Top quality meat and cleanliness during handling/prep is a must. And this applies to breasts only. Thighs I always cook to 170. Thank you again for posting your opinion on this.
This video explained something I've been trying to figure out for years. Thank you.
I once had the misfortune to live for about 2 years on a farm with a huge chicken rearing and production centre that supplied one of the big budget supermarkets. I cannot begin to describe how vile it was. I've seen it all and now cook chicken until it falls off the bone.
I'm surprised you still eat chicken after seeing that
@@Zoydberg If you cook it well it's OK. Besides we have Nandos Can't live without that!!!
Good point, farming practices is the problem, not cooking. Pastured chicken you can probably eat raw and be fine.
Whats the point of eating overcooked chicken? Chewy, tough, flavorless.
@@agirlisnoone5953 protein, brah
Chef, we absolutely love this informative post... It doesn't get anymore professional than this! Thank you...
Food safety experts would have us eating meat at shoe-leather level given their way. Their current requirements are a compromise!
They don't want a log 9 reduction of pathogens, they want a log 100 reduction. If they had it their way, they would have us cook the chicken in a pressure canner for 3 hours at sea level. But nobody's gonna follow that, so they'll just have to settle on 'some reduction of risk'.
Irritated meat would be their dream a second blast and it’s safe to eat at any temp. But, that’s a hard to market.
As a Chef for many years I’ve never had a problem with cooking chicken to 140 (at least) to 145 degrees. My only concern was that people weren’t measuring the temp and leaving the very center still pink and raw. You should never leave any part of the breast raw...
This popped up on my feed and I can't stop listening to you talk lol
The “vs.” in there was scary at first!
Well reasoned and explained, Helen.
Doesn't matter what view you hold about anything, you can always find an expert to support that view.
I like your fact based approach and thanks for that show your temp also in Celcius! Looking forwards to following your posts from Sweden!
Good for you Helen! Another great common sense video..
Adam Ragusea had a recent video talking about this "pasteurization" of poultry. He probably saw this video. I just subscribed!
I am new to this channel, I absolutely LOVE it! Keep on rollin' Ms. Rennie!
Thanks. I’m always worried and it’s good to hear solid common sense🐔pS Annother post about cross contamination would be awesome Miss Helen
Hi Helen,
your channel has converted me to sous vide cooking. I hybridize sous vide and smoke to create amazing tender meat dishes.
thanks
I sous vide chicken breast with a little bit of extra virgin olive oil and liquid smoke, etc., and whatever herbs you choose, it's great! I finish it with a weed torch.
Love your reality check and the very detailed information ☺
Agree about informed risk and would add the common sense caveat emptor - buyer beware. 1. The reason I subscribe to your channel is you explain why along with how. 2. You also provided a peek behind the industrial curtain that most consumers never hear. I go back and forth between ‘better’ (organic?) and budget. Your video has given me much to think about. 3. And I think I will subscribe to Chef Adam’s channel as well. Is always good to learn from an expert who can inspire learning and is curious as well as skilled. Finally #4. In today’s climate of violent reaction and political ugliness, both you & Chef Adam show how differing opinions can be discussed intelligently, leaving each of us to choose our own way. THANK YOU.
The other important fact about the usda and local board of health standards is their concern it food processors for the masses - they don't want large scale food born illness, and possibly deaths - that is why they exist. Not that I want to kill my family but often when we think we have a stomach virus it's really food poisoning - yes it may spread at different rates - a young child or elderly person may get sick from last nights chicken dinner and you may take up to 48 hrs to feel the effects and think you caught it. I'm not disagreeing with you at all - we all take risks we just need to be informed - and I love sushi! Thanks for your always well thought out and informative videos.
Thank you!! Perfectly explained, thorough research and fun video.
I keep forgetting about the soups vide for chicken. I’m going to try that tomorrow. Thanks for this!
finally a rational explanation with supported data on safe cooking temps.
in 1968 i was at a little hotel on the German Rhine when a small group of medical doctors were holding a professional society seminar. One evening they grilled a large pork roast and invited my family to join them. The meat was served medium with a pinkish center.
the take-aways is, safety starts with the proper processing, and ends with common sense.
Thank you, Helen Rennie. That was very informative, definitely clarified things I did not know. God bless you.
Very interesting discussion about a controversial topic! I loved how well you explained yourself and how you used a responsible combination of scientific research, expert opinions and personal anecdote. I found myself very defensive at first about cooking chicken to at least 165, but turns out it is not that simple. Thank you very much for this enlightening video!
Such a delightful disagreement. No shade thrown.
Thanks for the info Helen
Love the title!
Itvs like a rap battle... Only in cooking (cook-off?) 😅
Thank you for the explanation. I hadn’t been quite as curious about chicken as I have been about ground beef and you answered both questions. BTW, I LOVE duck but I’ve never cooked it before. Now I have a project, and I won’t tell you all about years of skydiving!
Helen thank you so much for doing this video! Love it!
This is such a challenging topic because nobody will agree on the right answer. I understand the USDA's position on calling 165 degree chicken safe because it is indeed safe probably 100% of the time. However, I am also risky like you and prefer my chicken tender, so I pull it at around 150 degrees and let it rise up on its own. According to Kenji's research, 150 degrees for 2.8 minutes is as safe as 165 degrees instantly. And it is so much more tender than 165 degree breast.
Thank you for making this video! I like the mentality to find out reasons instead of following guidelines for the sake of following.
Great, well reasoned video, Helen. Thank you.
First I love this, 2 of my 3 favorite food channels thinking and working off the other's work is fantastic, professional disagreement like this is still a form of collaboration and I love to see it! I should temp my food more, but I just cook chicken until juices run clear and it begins to be opaque all the way through so it is probably under done. It wasn't strange for my grandmother to give us raw bacon and the like growing up, so I might be a little too cavalier now!
Adam isn't disagreeing with her, he's playing it safe, as he's clearly stated if he cooks for himself, he doesn't mind cooking chicken to a lower temperature, but since he has kids, he cooks it to 165.
Thanks Helen. Good job. :)
I've never had the temperature of any meat increase 15 degrees once it was removed from the heat source...maybe 5 degrees but not 15.
It depends on the bulk and temperature at which you cook. I roast my chicken at 450-475F. And a whole chicken breast (not split or filleted) is very bulky. After being in the oven for about 30 min the outside gets very hot. If you leave a thermometer in it, it keeps going up for good 10-15 min (depending on the size). I don't cut into it until the temp starts to go down which is typically 15-20 minutes after it's out of the oven. Thighs will not go up much because of their shape, because they are at a higher temp than breasts, and because there is a bone running through them. This doesn't mean that a boneless chicken breast cooked at a lower temp will do that.
Helen Rennie that's interesting. I typically roast chicken (spatchcock) at 350 degrees/twenty minutes per pound. I have seen several cooking channels lately that roast chicken at 450. I will try roasting at a higher temperature. Thanks!
@@helenrennie "If you leave a thermometer in it"
The metal of the thermometer is a much more effective conductor of heat than the meat itself. Have you tried probing with an instant-read at intervals instead of leaving the metal probe in the meat the whole time? Just curious about your testing method.
My initial reaction was the same as Appalachia Fishing Club's, but I could see certain conditions _maybe_ resulting in a 15°F rise, only because 10°F carryover isn't uncommon of for large roasts. In fact, I always assume a 10°F carryover for a rib roast, because I'd rather it come out a little under if anything.
Professional cook for 15 years. Cooked plenty of ribeyes and filets on a charbroiler running about 600 degrees Fahrenheit and they would invariably jump 20 degrees after pulling them and resting for less than five minutes...
We'd pull standing rib roasts at 100 degrees to end up at 130
Thank you for this it was very informative!!
Your other video on sous vide chicken to 140ish changed my life. Chicken cooked to 165 now feels like chicken-jerky. :)
This girl be like "YOLO FOR THE POLLO"
The last Salmonella outbreak I heard about on the news was from onions. I’m pretty sure people eat those raw in salads and in burgers. I think people get fixated on some ideas regarding risk management that it builds a sense of false security. And meanwhile “experts” are so worried about not saying the “wrong” thing that they often give such conservative guidance or use so many qualifiers that either their advice is impractical or so nuanced that it’s meaningless.
@whatsupdate, onions aren’t regularly surface-contaminated at a rate of 50%.
Mike Schwartz do a google search for salmonella and click the news tab. How far down do you have to go to see chicken? I don’t have a single story on page 1. I have fungus, micro greens, onions and peaches. So yea, ok. Chicken is “a” risk. But I’m seeing the actual outbreaks coming from the things nobody talks about while they are too busy turning chicken to rubber. That’s all I’m saying. Ever eaten raw cookie dough? I sample it every time I make cookies and the sugar and fat are more likely to kill me than Salmonella will.
@whatsupdate, consider that those outbreaks were newsworthy precisely because they were unusual.
anyway, i agree with the spirit of what you’re saying, and i especially agree re sugar and fat doing more damage than salmonella. i just get nervous when i see “experts” in quotes, probably from spending too much time as a flat-earth spectator.
Last one I remember hearing about I think was baby spinach
@@whatsupdate Do you not understand basic cause and effect? Salmonella infection is rare with chicken *because* most people cook it to 165. The onions gave people salmonella *because* they didn't cook the ones that were infected. Onions having salmonella being more newsworthy is *because* it's more unexpected and dangerous due to people eating them raw.
That you find the current guidelines too "impractical" and "nuanced" says more about yourself, because most people have been following them with no issue.
The skin gets way hotter than 165 if you are getting the Maillard reaction.
Good and thorough treatment of the topic Helen. Hospitalizations is one metric, but lets face it, we've all had a lot of GI-issues that we attribute (rightly or wrongly) to our food that didn't result in such severity as to seek medical advice but nonetheless is still unpleasent. However I agree with your informed risk argument and cooking to temperature is only one of many steps we take to ensure hygiene. E.g. cooking to temperature properly vs not properly washing cutting boards or knives, letting chicken stand at room temperature ect the latter two seems far more risky (my opinion) than not getting the heat distribution in your meat perfect.
What an honest exploration of the topic. I wish more people took this approach to challenging their own beliefs. Thank you for your intellectual honesty!
What a great and informative video! Thank you!
Chicken breasts were practically made for sous vide. Two hours at 145 is my method then cubed for something like a pot pie or seared for everything else.
Thank you. 1. I have been feeding people since 1972. Never got anyone sick. 2. We survived for a few years as a species before refrigeration. 3. Mass animals processing is dirty. 4. Check your source. 5. If you can't guarantee your source, your skill, your guests, then yes. Follow the recommended temps. But if you don't fall into that category, cook well, share often, and contribu money to your local food bank. Oh county your blessings
Thanks Helen. Gods, I live rationality!
🙏❤️👍😁😎
I really enjoy your channel! Advance good wishes for your weekend XOXO
Thank you very much for this informative video. I appreciate that you leave links for the data and statistics to back up your view while making it clear that it is your choice and everyone can, and should, make their own choice.
I haven't yet watched your thermometer video but I know that the margin of error for placing a thermometer in thin cuts of meat is so narrow that, for me, I never use it other than for thick cuts. I just look for no pink in chicken - which is a bit of a fallacy itself; there are proteins in chicken near the bones that can leave the pink color even when fully cooked. But when the breast has lost all translucence but is still juicy, that's the perfection I strive for (but don't hit as often as I wish).
Number one; Adam and Helen both Rock!... about 15 years ago my husband of 34 years started cooking. I would come home to medium rare pork and medium-rare chicken breast. I was so freaked out about both. I don't know what they've done to our pigs? But you don't have to cook them well done anymore and we all have known that for a while. A chicken breast not cooked to 165 degrees is absolutely succulent... I had to eat crow for my disapproval. But it truly was delicious 😋
some people eat rare chicken cause its less likely for them to die than getting a traffic accidents.
I don’t eat meat so I don’t have to worry :)
lol big brain moves
Salmonella can be on lettuce and tomato. I believe I got it from tomato.
mad thumbs true
So Helen, would you adjust your final temperature for turkey breast? How about duck breast? How about duck breast medium rare as I have heard? I would be using bone-in, skin on.
Didn't even know who Adam was till I saw this video.Looks like an expert on every thing.I go to 155 and thats fine for me.Love your pan cooked cabbage.I add onions first.Best I ever had.
If all you know of my work is that particular video, you might note that I was not presenting my opinion as expert. I simply interviewed Dr. Diez, and told my audience what he said. He's the expert.
Hi Helen, I am from Singapore.
Over here, the Chinese eats a lot of chicken whereby the chicken is steamed whole.
After the chicken is cut for serving, the bone marrow is still red. Is this undercooked?
This Hainan chicken rice is very popular.
The color is not an indication of doneness. it's the temperature.
My impression of US food safety has always been that rules aren't put into place until there's been both a problem and a solution. Then the solutions get refined as various lobbying groups try and get exceptions carved out.
There was a major change a few years ago after heavy lobbying from the pork industry. Prior to that effort, all pork had to be cooked to the same Temps as poultry.
I've contracted salmonella twice when I was an inexperienced home cook and I'm certain it was due to cross contamination with raw poultry and not undercooked chicken. While learning to cook I bit into undercooked meats a bunch and while gross...I never got sick. Following raw food handling procedures I have never gotten food poisoning. Doesn't mean it's not possible or that temps don't matter I just think it's secondary to proper food handling and sanitizing.
Outstanding explanation
Hi Helen. My grandson got salmonella from Foster Farms chicken. The salmonella, went to his brain and he had to get brain surgery to remove it. In court, they asked Foster Farms if the salmonella had been fixed. They said no because the FDA does not require them to not sell chicken without salmonella. The crazy thing is that he didn't even eat the chicken. His grandmother was fixing the chicken, my grandson touched the counter where she was fixing the chicken. I'll never eat Foster Farms products. Salmonella strains can be traced back to a specific factory. Every year, they say that salmonella gets more and more immune to antibiotics and is way more dangerous than people realize. This comment is just for your readers to know that they do have to be very careful preparing chicken. Thanks for listening.
Just a small note on the Japanese Chicken sashimi. Almost nobody here actually eats it, it is quite rare, and almost everyone finds it gross.
When I lived in Japan, I ate it, it was great actually. I was hesitant at first but the chickens are super fresh there which is why theirs limited risk.
"it is quite rare" ...I see what you did there.
Adam's information is absolutely correct and the very safest way to prepare chicken. But I'm still Team Helen on whitemeat chicken temperatures :) (And dark meat chicken temperatures too) Go Helen!
As long as the internal temp holds around (I believe) 135-145 F for the right amount of time, it’s safe. I’ve never heard 20 min, I think it’s more like 5 min. But it’s best to find the chart. But with all that said, cook your chicken with low heat (250-300F) and it will stay tender, even around 165F.
Excellent explanation. I too like Adam.
All I know is that I have gotten salmonella from undercooked chicken breast and it was just awful. I appreciate your information and education on this topic but no thank you. ;)
the whole video was explaining how it's not undercooked, bruh.
Apparently it's very possible for chickens to develop a systemic salmonella infection that permeates the meat, and also gets into the chicken's reproductive trace, which is why raw or undercooked eggs may contain dangerous levels of salmonella. I personally like the texture and taste of protein foodss very thoroughly cooked - chicken, turkey, burgers, even eggs (and I buy Bell & Evans poultry products a lot of the time).
Chickens and other poultry, even on large free range farms have a tendency to eat where they defecate. It is because of this that rates of fecal bacterial infections are higher than other livestock. Seriously, I've watched a pet chicken with an entire acre of territory go number 2; then turn around and eat the tiny remaining solid bits. As with any animal protien, the temperature at which it is sufficiently pasteurized for human consumption is highly variable based primarily on the length of time required to kill off the overwhelming majority of harmful pathogens throughout the meat. 140° is perfectly safe if that temperature is held for long enough.
I simply loved this informative video!! The end. :D
I have always pulled breasts at 140* the carry over is about 8-10* after 30 years of professional cooking so far so good.
My takeaway from this is that if the chicken piece is whole and intact and it looks fresh and clean, then there is no problem with cooking it to a lower temperature. If the chicken is mangled, not so much, it's safer to go to a higher temperature.
Chicken that has been injected with brine does not necessarily look any different to unbrined chicken. You would have to look for bone-in skin-on pieces that say "no brine added" to be completely safe. Or, just hold at a lower temperature for longer (up to 30 minutes for 140.)
Great job! I have had over done chicken breast get stuck in my throat on more than one occasion. I also love tartare and mett. I have gotten sick from tartare one time in Normandy, never stopped me from ordering it again. Glad I found your channel
Thank you for the very interesting video helen! Would it be possible to have a video on cross contamination dos and donts in the kitchen? I tend to be lazy bleaching my sink after im done preparing chicken.. we haven't gotten sick yet.. but what can i be doing wrong?
great idea for a video :)
I have a completely different risk tolerance for food-borne illness (largely due to being on immunosuppressants), but I respect the way this video methodically explained the specific risks involved and the limitations of our collective understanding of food safety. Warning against the dangers of cross-contamination is so important, and you make that point well.
Love this video. So informational
What I've read is that 165 is, as you said, a "safe" answer. The real story is that it's a combination of time and temperature, so 145-150 degrees plus plenty of time at that temperature is as effective as 165 for a few seconds.
Also, if you don't have a sous vide rig, an ordinary induction burner on the lowest heat can poach chicken at not much over 150 degrees for as long as you like. Just keep checking with a Thermopen or whatever, it works great.
Holding for 145 F for 8-9 minutes is probably more than enough.