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Is your poker code 100% honest if real cash is being wagered. All gambling sites and even high street bookmakers have started to occasionally NOT pay out on their bets, this has happened numerous times in the past few years in the U.K.
I'm a chess player. The rules in the playing hall is NO cell phones. You pull out your cell in the hall? INSTANT DISQUALIFICATION! Poker needs to do the same.
Poker is not a team sport. Getting help from others at the table or rail, clearly violates the rules of the game. There has to be an example made in order to deter future desperate players or investors. Banning players for a considerable time from tournaments should be an option.
This is completely untrue hahaha. You can talk to whoever the fuck you want, about whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s not interfering with the specific hand in play if you’re not in it.
@@Foxtrot6624 As stated in WSOP 2024 Rule 20: No teams, substitutes, transfers, or Assisted Play will be permitted, except as allowed in the rules for designated “Tag Team” events.
@@leojoseph6385 Yeah, and that means exactly what I just said. You can’t fuck with a hand in progress. You can’t do team play meaning I can’t bring along a buddy to sit beside and help me and no subs means I can’t hand my chip stack off to my friend to take over for me when I’m bored. There is absolutely 0 rules against going over and talking to the rail between hand.
@@Foxtrot6624 It states No Assisted Play will be permitted. That means you’re on your own during the tournament. It includes not getting helped by your rail buddy’s laptop & advice.
@@leojoseph6385 No, it literally doesn’t, hence this whole debacle. Everyone knows it’s morally incorrect to use live assistance, but it nowhere in the rules verbatim disallows it. There was a message put out over the intercom disallowing live aid, but that’s not good enough, there needs to be written rules clear from signup. Smuggling a laptop onto the rails of a final table would be completely impossible, casinos are as secure as some prisons. The guy was allowed stroll up, bring it in and sit down. This was a moral failure sure by the player, but it’s a far far bigger and more egregious logistical error by WSOP to ever even a allow this scenario to happen. There is a reason why every other serious game/sport etcs highest levels have incredibly long, complex and detailed rulings on individual scenarios, so there is as little vagueness and room for abuse as possible, but that is entirely different than talking to the rail which is absolutely allowed between hands.
$40 buy in tournament at your local casino: "One player to a hand." WSOP main event heads up for 10 million dollars: "Do whatever you want, it's fine."
I'm not a pokey guy, but this right here is ridiculous beyond belief. How could it even occur in the first place, let alone the guy defending it on twitter!? What a joke!
As an outsider who knows very little about poker, it seems absolutely insane that players can go meet with a group of people with laptops/software DURING a hand. How tf is that not an instant DQ? What am I missing here?
He's not being accused of that. He's being accused of consulting on best strategy between hands. "Did I play that hand right?" "What hands should open raise in these table conditions?" etc. etc.
@@geoffreyedwards3425I see. Thanks for the explanation. That’s not quite as bad but still seems wrong. What’s the general consensus amongst players? Are most ok with this or against it?
@@NOREMAC007 I should also have said that you are explicitly not allowed to stand up and move around during a hand you are (unless there is no possibility of more action). Nobody will care much if you just stretch your legs and sit down, of course, but going to the rail wouldn't be tolerated. I have no particular insight into the consensus in this case but I think most poker players think what was done was wrong. The question is really whether it was in a legal gray area or not. My guess that 50% think it's outright cheating and most of the rest think it is morally suspect but could be defended in court.
@@gunnarpoker2827 If it's done between hands during a break, then it's not that bad. I still wouldn't allow this type of stuff during a tournament. But it's not like he consulted the computer on how to play the turn and river card.
Honestly, given helmuths behavior and years of bad performance, I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to find a way to use these same tools himself but still admonish others. Best recent example I have - at pokergo (see Doug polks most recent video) his repeated use of attack language and insulting players, during live play. He's not mad at the situation, he is mad at the player for not playing in a way that guarantees Phil to win. But, then, the second a player talks the same way back to him, Phil goes back to insult language and walks off stage. If Helmuth respected the game, he wouldn't act the way he does. I don't care how many WSOP bracelets he has, they mean nothing when an adult doesn't have integrity and self control
I think cell phone is ok 2 have on u but only 4 like family emergencys calls. If ur playing poker then play the game not be distracted by whatever on ur phone and yea ppl on the rails no advice should be given period strategize on ur own time not while tourney is going on.
@@OneOut1 I doubt it or he wouldn’t have done the Doug Polk podcast. If you’re talking to lawyers the #1 thing they will say is don’t talk to anyone about the case
Im a dealer..in vegas..this is crazy..i would not deal a card till it was put away..daniel..youre a pro .i have watched you for 20 years..nothing but respect on and off the table..gl..eric😊
I also love the idea that "But...but .... I promised my fwiend I'd help him win!" is somehow a valid justification for cheating. But yeah, wtf are the tournament organisers doing?
There's nothing "unbecoming" about losing four million dollars to a cheater. I think any jury would see the winner repeatedly going from his chair to the rail and eventually winning the tournament. If Doug is correct and Nevada law prohibits getting advice from another source, this case should be a slam dunk for the second place winner. I'd demand the WSOP declare me the winner or it will be lawsuit time.
Its not losing 4 mil for ending up 2nd, all the other players there got screwed by this, if tamayo is DQ,d or gets ko,d earlier without the help griff doesnt necessarily win, the ten mill should be forfeited and probly split at least between the other 8 players
I am an attorney. I would be shocked if a lawsuit is not filed. Seems like an easy win against the cheaters and the host for negligence. Plus the amount at issue is big enough to pursue. A case will be filed and the WSOP will be forced to address this issue and make changes
@@DixiePokerAce I’m not positive, but it sounded like this behavior was against Nevada state law. So even if it wasn’t against the rules of the game exactly, if they can show they violated the law, that should be enough
You are a lawyer and see it as an easy win. You spent all that time in law school to be this shitty? Brutal. The university you graduated from is hoping you don't list them on your LinkedIn profile. You should find another profession.
@@YouGotHousesWeGotMahomespeople with an education shouldn’t comment on hobbies videos they enjoy? let me hop out of here then and leave the insightful comments to you 😅
Griff should absolutely sue. Not necessarily for the purposes of garnering any kind of monetary settlement, but to keep this issue in the limelight, and force the gaming organizations to improve their security & integrity procedures for these live events.
I actually have a video of a guy beside me at the WSOP in Toronto a few months ago using his phone while in hands with the charts pulled up. And even during the hands he was inputting his cards to see what it tells him to do. When I called him out on it, he acted like it was normal and ok to do. I was pissed. About an hour later I took him out with my KK vs his K 10 shove. He was SB and I was BB (74 BB shove I called) He had the audacity to tell me that was a standard shove on his part and because his battery was low on his phone he couldn't use his tracker.
The problem with not suing is there is no other real recourse. In the old days, Tamayo and Dom would already have been physically dealt with, but now, you can't do that as easily.
The real fault here lies with the WSOP. They should have at the very least, not have the laptop visible on the fucking live stream. Jesus fucking Christ who is in charge over there? What a terrible look for the game in what is supposed to be the greatest event in all of poker. Unbelievably terrible management.
I grew up in Vegas. I have seen people walked out for playing on their phones or trying to while it's on their thigh playing on the cheap tables. It's just NOT done. Not sure why ANY electronics would be allowed in any type of tourney. No cell's, no laptops, no observers within 25 feet. Something that will cancel cell signals also needs to be used to make sure NOBODY can get any communications. Just the players, the dealers and camera's to cover the game. Nobody should be close enough to signal or tip or pass any type of info.
@andreydzyuba9122 Almost is not 0. It only takes 1 at your table. Pls its like saying because U dont know anyone who drinks and drive u can ALMOST asure us there are no drunk drivers. Ofc there are cheaters online also on mid and high stakes. There are less on higher stakes but more then u will find out about. U think they copy the exact data of the Solver non stop? Stop being this naive!
Online poker has been rigged since day 1. A computer program CANNOT randomly generate hands because it already knows what cards it burned and dealt. Also it's little more than an algorithm to funnel money to the sites sponsored players.
Every new poker controversy exposes us to a new load of scumbags while also reminding us of scumbags we'd forgotten and revealing scumbaggery we'd never heard of. Cesspool of a game.
Should be no laptops, no cell phones, no music, no anything. Should be players and cards only...not even help from the sidelines. You play at the table. If you are the best (or have the most luck), then you win. Anything else is a joke.
As a first time WSOP participant this year it was ABSOLUTELY offensive and ridiculous that the first thing announced before the cards went in the air was “and remember players no problem solvers at the table during play!” ?????? Everyone who didn’t already have a problem solver app downloaded immediately pulled oot the phone and downloaded one?! The only tournament I’ve ever played in that I KNEW PLAYERS were factually cheating was this year at the wsop, easiest place to cheat period, trying to listen to IDIOTS SPEAK OM SOMETHING THEY COULDVE STOPPED BEFORE NOW IS PATHETIC.,. hey u wanna cheat, play in the wsop, easiest tourney to do so period
@@scottsharp1763 the Nevada gaming commission defers many ruling decisions to the actual location where the game is being played. As I said the commission has never outlawed card counting on blackjack games and this is just human brain power, they leave it up to the individual casino to determine the level of counting that they will allow. It is not a legally unlawful act in a casino to card count it’s just a local casino rule that each casino applies for their own establishment.
I am a Magic: the Gathering tournament player and level 1 judge with only a casual interest in Poker. In our game we prohibit all use of digital devices unless to look up specific cards(which is obviously irrelevant to poker) and even then you need to do this in plain view of your opponent. That said, if such rules are not implemented (yet) in poker by your tournament organiser, there is little you can do about this for now except push for rules changes or use the same type of advantageous software.
Isn't the show the actual.poker players playing poker? I've never turned on the WSOP because I wanted to see people on the rail. I want to watch some poker.
Its not in the written rules bevause noone ever thought it would need to be included. Like you cant flip over your opponents cards before making a call, it doesnt need to be written down.
If laptops are allowed on the rail, there WILL sooner or later be teams who will use electronic signaling to pass along real time assistance in the middle of hands. Just need to rig a way to communicate what the player's hand is, and it's only 2 hole cards. The flop, turn and river are there for everyone to see, so no need for signaling on that part, just need the guy with the laptop to be able to see the cards on the board from the rail. Then a simple, Morse Code-style signal system as to whether to bet, raise, fold, how much to bet, etc. Somewhat difficult, to be sure, but hardly impossible, and for millions people WILL lick the necessary problems to make it work. This shit has to be stopped like YESTERDAY. Laptops and cell phones on the rail at these tournaments need to be banned. If you take your cell phone out of your pocket, you get ejected. Period.
you don't even need to do all that to give a pro player a MASSIVE advantage. You can give them exact GTO ranges and percentages with the right information. I'm sure a clever person could develop a system where they give a percentage call raise fold based on ranges with some sort of zapper or clicker. It's just silly what's possible now.
@George_Taylor_ bone conducting head set things are getting smaller and sleeker. You can literally get voice communication with zero sound leak out. One well placed camera that can gather and transmit the cards on the table. Could be on a player or spectator, or somebody who has control of their casino or area can rig it up easily overhead. If there's enough money to be won people will try to cheat.
He had an earpiece, which explains why he had to pull his hoodie up over his ears while at the table/while playing and not up when he was standing at the rail. Next, one guy at the rail was only wearing one earbud which fell out at the end, but where was the other earbud? Inside the hoodie to communicate.
I think that one of the worst parts that no one is saying directly is that with what they were doing, they could do range isolation in real time. THAT is pretty much cheating; rules or not.
Has anyone looked into the reasoning that the WSOP rules for the Main Event were NOT in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Commission where devices are concerned ? Something banned in one set of rules should be covered without any ambiguity.
There's a very easy logical way to determine if it deserves suing. If the use of solvers is now used against the casino instead of other players, do you not think the casino will be suing the player using the solver? This path of thinking will be much more straightforward
@xancypillosi The difference in Iveys edge sorting was the casino agreed to it, and it was all within gaming commission rules. And even though he won, the casino still made money, they promoted it.
How did no one complain and call the floor and get this shit stopped. Getting an advantage by help from other players or people on the rail should not be allowed period.
@@gfresh6 true although its though to blame the runner up, your are playing for a bracelet I bet he thought his best shot was to not entertain it and play his most focused game. Its a shame, I hope he gets the bracelet and the "winner" get disqualified like it often happens after the race is finished in F1 or even Atlheticism
"I feel like suing is embarrassing" Dumbest take ever. If you're both cheating, then it's shameful to sue. No honor among thieves. But if you are playing by the rules and your opponent is cheating the right thing for society is to sue.
Suing is not necessary. The winner guy's name will be tainted and he'll forever be known as the poker pro that needed a whole team of other poker pros with RTA software, in real time, to beat an amateur. Hopefully it causes real changes in WSOP though
Which would you rather have - 4 million dollars, poker sponsorship deals, and a bracelet, or... *checks notes* "the other guy's reputation is tainted."
Suing is necessary (no settlements though!). It forces a ruling that WSOP allowed breaking of the rules set by the Nevada gaming comity. Next tournament/opportunity, the floor will walk up to the laptop user and check if no rules are being broken.
6:10 Daniel is right, with one exception. If the Nevada Gaming Control Board were to bring charges and convict anyone on Tomato, a civil lawsuit to follow would not have to prove the cheating part, just the damages caused and would probably make suing a financially sound decision. Regardless of criminal charges, you most likely sue the player, his team members, the operator and anyone they hired to provide cheating oversight if it wasn't all in house.
No reason for anyone in the room, playing or watching, to have a phone. Millions of dollars are on the line, put your phone away for 8 hours and pay attention.
Great edit! Commentary was smooth and the video wasn't about you, but you added continuity and gave us shorter format listeners the gist. I wanted to watch that Doug, keaton, Daniel pod. No time
The poker world seems a bit late to the party when it comes to cheating. In chess we've had this for decades, and the poker world can learn from what they do there. Cheating in online chess has become really, really hard. And in real life chess, you're not allowed to have a phone, or even a watch. Not even a normal analogue watch.
It doesn't matter how much was gained from using a solver. Or how hard that is to prove. It gives SOME advantage. It is illegal to do. You should give up the prize money and split it among the table
I don't agree with the idea of making someone sit out rounds. In live play, that's a penalty. In tournament play, that's an ADVANTAGE, because that's how many hands where they're not losing anything. A half-hour of other players losing, while they're coasting. Like players arriving late on the last day of a tournament - they're getting an advantage, in that other players are being knocked out while they're not participating, and taking their own risks. Rules violations should cost players some percentage of their stack. A minor violation results in 10% of their stack being added to the next hand. Whether they're forced to sit out that hand and not have a chance to regain that loss is a harsher penalty. On major violations that are close to, but not quite, good enough to be a total disqualifier should cost 50% of their stack.
Alan Keating is such a lame for that take. I can’t believe he said that. He must care way too much about people think about him. He’s super insecure and goes to ridiculous lengths to try to look “cool” and like he DoEsNt CaRe
Solvers between hands do not just help with preflop ranges and decisions. They can provide guidance on the post flop decisions as well, based on own and opponent stack sizes.
having someone help you does not make you a good player if you're a so called good player you won't need help from anyone. too me the best poker player is the one who can bluff the most or just gets lucky
@@Michael-u3n5l Naw playing at the WSOP and ggpoker getting to talk to a few of the top players stat wise, they all study in their own unique ways and most of them play with each other while they learn from each other in discussion so, that's not true dude. We all have to put in some work and learn from others success/failure that's what being a pro is all about! -Pro BBall player/ Pro-Bowler hopefully Pro-Poker champ too soon ;) 100
it's kind of like playing in a basketball game and one guy is allowed to travel over and over.. and no one says anything until after the guy has already won the title and is off with the trophy... "wait a minute... that guy was travelling the whole time"..
This is like flopping in basketball to get the ref to call a charge when it’s not. It deception and trickery to get an incorrect call. Is flopping illegal? No. Is it frowned upon? By some yes. By other it’s part of the game. Some ppl do it some ppl don’t. It’s an unwritten rule and takes away from the integrity of the game. Like hitting a player in baseball with a pitch after they hit your guy. Is that assault with a weapon? All these situations depend on where you draw the line. Everyone is gonna say the line is right after what they’re doing. Daniel included. He said his notes during play are fine. But if someone wrote down every solver how is that different?
There was a guy playing with paper note at the table while he had a hand and the floor is call and told you can't use side notes so why did they allow computerized side notes
In case anyone is wondering imo this is the equivalent of playing a top level competitive game but you have a opening book of all forms as assistance to get u through the beginning part of the game
Correction of Daniel's statement at the 10:30 when he said you can't play with any aids according to the gaming commission rules, which are directed at the house games, but applies to poker as well. This is incorrect, you can't use computers or digital aids, but you can use paper aids, such as the basic strategy charts in the giftshop for BJ. Not a big deal in this case, but the gaming rules would not cover the use of preflop decision charts written down or printed out.
@halecarter7041 my original comment was directed at his statement regarding gaming commission general gaming rules, not WSOP announcements or written rules that may be more restrictive. I covered that destinction very clearly in my original comment.
You're 100% right on what you said - of course you can use basic strategy charts, paper and pencil at baccarat, roulette etc. Without knowing, I assumed the gaming rules only applied to house games, but you clarified poker also.
I totally totally agree about the headphones one. At one WSOP event, I had a girl with her headphones literally DANCING in her chair to her music, kicking me under the tables, moving her head constantly and it was SOOOOO fricking annoying.
The rule “one player to a hand” clarifies this i think. It should be the mind and knowledge of one player vs the mind and knowledge of another player. The line for me between a hand sheet and this is collecting and referring to past information VS utilising up to date new information.
a so called poker pro making a bad take what a shocker that is. The nuber of time Negraou had mis read or played extremely badly and gotten luck is untrue. Yet he is hialed as a poker genius nope just very lucky.
Hes under the impression they can solve it as men or poker players or as a prop. But this is pure scum. A guy doing this wouldnt be up for solving it like that.
Regarding "it's a slippery slope in whom you would sue", legally, that's very straightforward - the defendants would be the player, the guy who helped him, the venue, and the WSOP. You don't have to sue only one defendant.
Yeah bro if you sue people you are not a man you are a pussy. As a man, you are supposed to just let people cheat and steal from you and do nothing about it.
Bottom line ... in poker it's 1 player per hand, not 1 player+his rail+a solver running calcs... it's exactly what Negs said. A stain on the game. Hope in the future that the rail will be more heavily guarded and this kind of cheating/collusion can be prevented
"I find it unbecoming for people to use the legal processes available to them to right wrongs" is certainly a take. Not one many people with brains would agree with, but it's a take.
Very easy to solve in the future. This is no different that using a performance enhancing drug. Simply no contact with the audience during play of the final table & the players should sequestered during breaks like a jury. Also no electronic devices at the tables & players should be scanned for any listening devices. Obviously you can't do much with the early stages of a tournament. However players are jumping around & changing tables, etc so it would be much harder to gain a significant advantage.
Stradle is a strong tool, it's a little reckless, but it does create alot more playable hands. Technically you could go all in pre-flop, it's complete madness gg's guys!
I also think Keating had a pretty tone deaf take here. His perspective as a billionaire playing against whales bears no resemblance to what it’s like to play as a normal low/mid stakes player. Some people don’t want to be social, they want to play cards and listen to their music. Some people like to wear sunglasses. Who cares. Maybe he wouldn’t allow it in his private $1000/$2000 game but that is not even in the same ballpark as your regular 2/5 game at your local casino.
Whats even the point of playing live at that point ? Just play online if you wanna chill and listen to music. And I say that as a mainly online player.
It's ironic because Polk wanted to use solvers in his HU with DNegs. Also, I love how Dominik went from "you're a moron" to "I was just trying to help a friend".
Listened for only 5 minutes, and I can confidently say this: Just because you CAN do something (if within the rules) doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. I could find loopholes to get an advantage at almost anything. Cheating and doing something wrong aren't always one in the same.
I've never been at a casino poker table where electronics were allowed. You even pull your phone out to check the time and the dealer will say something.
"Using courts to solve your problems is unbecoming" - This is such a bad fucking take. Imagine giving up your right to due process because you think it's not manly
Unless a tournament's rules soecifically allow it, min-raising utg before you see your cards in a tournament is not a straddle. When the action gets back to the button, and no one else has reraised, the round is over and the flop is dealt. Utg does not get the option to reraise.
The fact that there's a lot of money on the line doesn't make it right. "Oh, it's for a lot of money, well then I guess we should give them access to a super computing facility then" It's supposed to be a problem you solve on your own and if you can't then you're just another in a long line of losers who aren't strong enough to get to the final table under their own power. If this is allowed to stand there's now going to be scores of people using solvers, or people standing next to them with solvers. At that point you can just pack up the tournament and go home.
Can anyone explain what the software does, I am a little unsure on this? Is it putting in peoples plays to help what moves to make in certain spots? Thanks in advance
Dominique Nitsche is behaving like a complete ass because he knows what he did was wrong. So he is being overly defensive and attacking all who criticize him. What a complete tool! These guys don't belong in poker and should be called out constantly. To use a solver in the WSOP main event final table in REAL TIME is so beyond the pale that to try and justify it shows a complete disconnect with the real world.
Just like in any high stakes venue, players have an incentive to push the boundaries of the rulebook. It's up to the tournament to have clear rules and enforce them appropriately.
"one player to a hand" is the first thing I was told the first time I sat down at a poker table in a casino. I was so angry and disappointed at this year's final table.
I'm not familiar with how the floor runs during a tournament. Is there not an official who should have commented or investigated this scenario as it was happening, and if necessary pause the game for an official ruling?
What would stop this from happening is to dig up the set from Mansion Poker's Poker Dome. I played in (and won) one of the first games played during their Press Conference, to introduce it to the world. They had a weekly televised game where winning players from around the world, playing on their online site, would be brought to the converted movie theater in the Neonopolis complex in downtown Las Vegas. The stage was set for live broadcasts of the games in front of a studio audience. Though the audience was shown the hole cards live, they could not relay information to the players. An electronic wall would go opaque, and a sound suppression system would keep the players from seeing or hearing the audience while a hand was in play. Players still got the adrenalin rush of playing in front of an excited, shouting audience between hands.
I'm SO surprised none of the players or their 'teams(?)' called that out. And who was the tournament director?? That's absolutely nuts. Like disqualification and banned from the sanctioning body nuts
They say it's not worth the lawyers. Easy if you're already wealthy. Imagine if they were against someone who got their seat by their home league members each contributing to the buy in. Yeah, people like that still play the main event. Try telling them $4 million isn't worth suing over. Cheating is cheating
Reminds me of 1981 Indy 500 where 2nd place sued because of rules violation by winner....also the Americas Cup back in '88/'89 I think where New Zealand sued San Diego Yacht Club after Dennis Connor built a catamaran to race against a monohull.
The problem is: players look at hands 1 hour after the hand...should this be allowed? Players are still going to get texted info on solvers on that, whether you believe it or not, a TON of players are getting solver analysis once the hand is seen. Unless you're willing to ban cell phones, you're not stopping it. Even then, friends will go to the rail and ask for info, the friend just won't be dumb enough to bring a laptop to the rail. So ban rail fans? Seems impossible
The WSOP has several controversies in the past that had to be put to rest prior to the following year's event. The current directorship needs to develop the most reasonable interpretation of rules and apply them with technology to resolve this stain from the fabric of live poker action.
![Daniel Negreanu Puts Phil Hellmuth in his Place on LIVE TV [SHOCKING]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NwwDjZjIh1E/mqdefault.jpg)
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Is your poker code 100% honest if real cash is being wagered. All gambling sites and even high street bookmakers have started to occasionally NOT pay out on their bets, this has happened numerous times in the past few years in the U.K.
I'm a chess player.
The rules in the playing hall is NO cell phones.
You pull out your cell in the hall? INSTANT DISQUALIFICATION!
Poker needs to do the same.
Same as strip clubs!
Talking should not be allowed either, just like in chess.
it's way worse in chess
Uh... In my country bringing phone is fine
But it need to be turned off or else instant disqualification
Yeah, they should also check if the players are wearing any beads!
Poker is not a team sport. Getting help from others at the table or rail, clearly violates the rules of the game. There has to be an example made in order to deter future desperate players or investors. Banning players for a considerable time from tournaments should be an option.
This is completely untrue hahaha. You can talk to whoever the fuck you want, about whatever the fuck you want as long as it’s not interfering with the specific hand in play if you’re not in it.
@@Foxtrot6624 As stated in WSOP 2024 Rule 20: No teams, substitutes, transfers, or Assisted Play will be permitted, except as allowed in the rules for designated “Tag Team” events.
@@leojoseph6385 Yeah, and that means exactly what I just said. You can’t fuck with a hand in progress. You can’t do team play meaning I can’t bring along a buddy to sit beside and help me and no subs means I can’t hand my chip stack off to my friend to take over for me when I’m bored. There is absolutely 0 rules against going over and talking to the rail between hand.
@@Foxtrot6624 It states No Assisted Play will be permitted. That means you’re on your own during the tournament. It includes not getting helped by your rail buddy’s laptop & advice.
@@leojoseph6385 No, it literally doesn’t, hence this whole debacle. Everyone knows it’s morally incorrect to use live assistance, but it nowhere in the rules verbatim disallows it. There was a message put out over the intercom disallowing live aid, but that’s not good enough, there needs to be written rules clear from signup. Smuggling a laptop onto the rails of a final table would be completely impossible, casinos are as secure as some prisons. The guy was allowed stroll up, bring it in and sit down. This was a moral failure sure by the player, but it’s a far far bigger and more egregious logistical error by WSOP to ever even a allow this scenario to happen.
There is a reason why every other serious game/sport etcs highest levels have incredibly long, complex and detailed rulings on individual scenarios, so there is as little vagueness and room for abuse as possible, but that is entirely different than talking to the rail which is absolutely allowed between hands.
$40 buy in tournament at your local casino: "One player to a hand."
WSOP main event heads up for 10 million dollars: "Do whatever you want, it's fine."
😂😂😂 facts
Good job, you got the Heart emoji from click-baiting Alex!
You can't talk about your hand heads up...but you can goto the rail and ask pros and have them run computer simulations for you. Wtf.
I'm not a pokey guy, but this right here is ridiculous beyond belief. How could it even occur in the first place, let alone the guy defending it on twitter!? What a joke!
Lmao. It’s because they’ve made it a spectacle, and it kind of is. Watching the final table doesn’t feel like poker anymore
As an outsider who knows very little about poker, it seems absolutely insane that players can go meet with a group of people with laptops/software DURING a hand. How tf is that not an instant DQ? What am I missing here?
He's not being accused of that. He's being accused of consulting on best strategy between hands. "Did I play that hand right?" "What hands should open raise in these table conditions?" etc. etc.
@@geoffreyedwards3425I see. Thanks for the explanation. That’s not quite as bad but still seems wrong. What’s the general consensus amongst players? Are most ok with this or against it?
@@NOREMAC007 I should also have said that you are explicitly not allowed to stand up and move around during a hand you are (unless there is no possibility of more action). Nobody will care much if you just stretch your legs and sit down, of course, but going to the rail wouldn't be tolerated. I have no particular insight into the consensus in this case but I think most poker players think what was done was wrong. The question is really whether it was in a legal gray area or not. My guess that 50% think it's outright cheating and most of the rest think it is morally suspect but could be defended in court.
they can't....if you leave the table during a hand your hand is dead...nobody did this...he was talking to friends between hands and on breaks.
@@gunnarpoker2827 If it's done between hands during a break, then it's not that bad. I still wouldn't allow this type of stuff during a tournament. But it's not like he consulted the computer on how to play the turn and river card.
Imagine if Chess players just had a laptop next to them lol what a joke.
Chess tournaments are super strict about computer assistance. Poker is a joke
But wasn't this between hands? It would be the equivalent of performing analysis of moves in between games, right?
@@danielbecker9257It was not between hands. It would be a non story if it was between hands
He never left mid hand wtf
Chess and games like poker with imperfect information have zero relation.
Could you imagine if Hellmuth was the other player? I bet that shit would have been shut down immediately after he noticed.
We hVe not seen the Poker Brat Helmuth's eyes in decades. He wears sunglasses constantly.
1000% he would have shit that shit down. Without question it would have been brought up and attention would be on it every time it was used.
He might have had a coronary. It would literally be dangerous if he were in the room.
Honestly, given helmuths behavior and years of bad performance, I wouldn't be surprised if he is trying to find a way to use these same tools himself but still admonish others.
Best recent example I have - at pokergo (see Doug polks most recent video) his repeated use of attack language and insulting players, during live play. He's not mad at the situation, he is mad at the player for not playing in a way that guarantees Phil to win. But, then, the second a player talks the same way back to him, Phil goes back to insult language and walks off stage.
If Helmuth respected the game, he wouldn't act the way he does. I don't care how many WSOP bracelets he has, they mean nothing when an adult doesn't have integrity and self control
Hellmuth would believe he could just beat the computer
100% on the floor for not enforcing rules
uhhhh and the cheaters themselves obviously.
Is it really cheating if the tournament organisers are actively allowing it?
@@davep7176 yes, because it's against state law.
@@CantForgetNow Then the organisers are in breach of the law.
Yeah I don’t get how they see it going on and didn’t intervene
It's not the 2nd place guy who should file legal action - it's anybody at a pay jump line who was significantly impacted.
Tournaments should be run straight up. No cell phones. No rails birds. Disqualify that cheater.
I think cell phone is ok 2 have on u but only 4 like family emergencys calls. If ur playing poker then play the game not be distracted by whatever on ur phone and yea ppl on the rails no advice should be given period strategize on ur own time not while tourney is going on.
which rule did he break....
@@relicdad88 if you can't give up your phone to play in a poker tournament. Then don't play.
If you're expecting family emergencies, go home.Phones can be used to cheat at poker, so ban phones for players in the poker room.
He didn't beat him, straight up, don't pay that man his money!
You're not suing to 'not be a man,' you're suing to make a precedent for the future of poker.
Sure. Sue the casino, get a huge judgement, and then see if they ever host the WSOP again after that precedent is set.
@@geoffreyedwards3425if the casino lets you get cheated, why would you want WSOP there anyways?
@@adamkahn8645 I meant ... see if *anybody* wants to host the WSOP again after they all see they see the potential downside.
@@geoffreyedwards3425 fair enough, cheers!
Not just $4M. Potential brand deals, fame, prestige, a VERY nice bracelet, etc... I'd be talking to lawyers
True
I imagine hs is.
Alex, quit pandering to these losers. FFS, you know better.
@@OneOut1 I doubt it or he wouldn’t have done the Doug Polk podcast. If you’re talking to lawyers the #1 thing they will say is don’t talk to anyone about the case
I agree I would absolutely seek legal counsel over this
Im a dealer..in vegas..this is crazy..i would not deal a card till it was put away..daniel..youre a pro .i have watched you for 20 years..nothing but respect on and off the table..gl..eric😊
They announced at the start of the tournament that solvers would get people kicked out. There's no question that they cheated.
Why werent they kicked out?
@@Flowerz__now that is the big question!
I also love the idea that "But...but .... I promised my fwiend I'd help him win!" is somehow a valid justification for cheating. But yeah, wtf are the tournament organisers doing?
I remember the good ol' days when cell phones and laptops just weren't allowed at the table.
There's nothing "unbecoming" about losing four million dollars to a cheater. I think any jury would see the winner repeatedly going from his chair to the rail and eventually winning the tournament. If Doug is correct and Nevada law prohibits getting advice from another source, this case should be a slam dunk for the second place winner. I'd demand the WSOP declare me the winner or it will be lawsuit time.
100%
Alan Keating believes it is feminine behavior to sue people when they have committed crimes
He had such a weird take like just accept you lost $4 mil to a cheater? What is the manly way? Go beat people up? Give me a break lmao
Its not losing 4 mil for ending up 2nd, all the other players there got screwed by this, if tamayo is DQ,d or gets ko,d earlier without the help griff doesnt necessarily win, the ten mill should be forfeited and probly split at least between the other 8 players
Drama queen. Go take a nap you dork
I am an attorney. I would be shocked if a lawsuit is not filed. Seems like an easy win against the cheaters and the host for negligence. Plus the amount at issue is big enough to pursue. A case will be filed and the WSOP will be forced to address this issue and make changes
I get all that but "proving" this case to jurors won't be easy.
@@DixiePokerAce I’m not positive, but it sounded like this behavior was against Nevada state law. So even if it wasn’t against the rules of the game exactly, if they can show they violated the law, that should be enough
You are a lawyer and see it as an easy win. You spent all that time in law school to be this shitty? Brutal. The university you graduated from is hoping you don't list them on your LinkedIn profile. You should find another profession.
@@randolphbrandelli5633 Sad that you spent all that time in law school to land here.
@@YouGotHousesWeGotMahomespeople with an education shouldn’t comment on hobbies videos they enjoy? let me hop out of here then and leave the insightful comments to you 😅
Griff should absolutely sue. Not necessarily for the purposes of garnering any kind of monetary settlement, but to keep this issue in the limelight, and force the gaming organizations to improve their security & integrity procedures for these live events.
Yep, sue, just to have a ruling on this matter so we can move forward.
WSOP promises to do better in the future simply wouldn't be enough.
@@DreadX10 Exactly. This kind of thing can't rely on empty promises. There needs to be mandated action.
You wanna pay those legal bills?
i dont want to play vs a team of pros with laptops.
@@ChokeslamToHell These guys have millions. Lawyers fees are chump change for them.
I actually have a video of a guy beside me at the WSOP in Toronto a few months ago using his phone while in hands with the charts pulled up. And even during the hands he was inputting his cards to see what it tells him to do.
When I called him out on it, he acted like it was normal and ok to do. I was pissed.
About an hour later I took him out with my KK vs his K 10 shove. He was SB and I was BB (74 BB shove I called)
He had the audacity to tell me that was a standard shove on his part and because his battery was low on his phone he couldn't use his tracker.
Wow he actual had the balls to say that smfh
9 laptops ( on ) a final table.
2 guys on the rails
Guy 1 - is that player stalling?
Guy 2 - Nah , he’s running solvers………😂🤠
"He's just using his time wisely"
@@willy_lime - No, it's Martin Kabhrel playing solitaire. He'll eventually fold after tanking with 2-7 pre-plop.
The problem with not suing is there is no other real recourse. In the old days, Tamayo and Dom would already have been physically dealt with, but now, you can't do that as easily.
OK internet toughguy
The real fault here lies with the WSOP. They should have at the very least, not have the laptop visible on the fucking live stream. Jesus fucking Christ who is in charge over there? What a terrible look for the game in what is supposed to be the greatest event in all of poker. Unbelievably terrible management.
Did the commentators say anything?
Maybe it was intentional to have it visible because someone wanted this to be a topic and be taking care of.
Daniel is 100% right, it's such a self-evident corruption of the entire game of poker.
This totally puts me off from watching this event ever again.
I grew up in Vegas. I have seen people walked out for playing on their phones or trying to while it's on their thigh playing on the cheap tables. It's just NOT done. Not sure why ANY electronics would be allowed in any type of tourney. No cell's, no laptops, no observers within 25 feet. Something that will cancel cell signals also needs to be used to make sure NOBODY can get any communications. Just the players, the dealers and camera's to cover the game. Nobody should be close enough to signal or tip or pass any type of info.
The penalty should be disqualification and permanent ban.
I’m just really curious as to WHY no one, even WSOP officials scrutinize this until after the fact? It’s not like they were secretive about it.
Too much soy. Lack of male role models. Seriously, clearly there is something wrong society.
I will never ever play online again for this reason. Honestly this is it. There is money to be stolen.
It's why I quit playing online
@andreydzyuba9122 Almost is not 0. It only takes 1 at your table. Pls its like saying because U dont know anyone who drinks and drive u can ALMOST asure us there are no drunk drivers. Ofc there are cheaters online also on mid and high stakes. There are less on higher stakes but more then u will find out about. U think they copy the exact data of the Solver non stop? Stop being this naive!
If you’re playing online and not using a solver, or expecting the other players aren’t, then you’re a fool!
Online poker has been rigged since day 1. A computer program CANNOT randomly generate hands because it already knows what cards it burned and dealt. Also it's little more than an algorithm to funnel money to the sites sponsored players.
@@dipdo7675 Using solvers online in real time is just admitting you don't have any skill and no place at any poker table whatsoever
The whole earbud thing after the win looked soooooo sketchy. lol
Everyone focused on the laptop but why is no one talking about the ear piece and how it was quickly handed off twice after the victory? Super shady
Every new poker controversy exposes us to a new load of scumbags while also reminding us of scumbags we'd forgotten and revealing scumbaggery we'd never heard of.
Cesspool of a game.
Let's not forget it is against the law - not just a rule or an ordinance or a preference!
Thank you
What is the law? Just curious
Since when does the law matter anymore? We have politicians ignoring it like no arrests for 2020 Summer of Love riots.
What law? Reference it dork. Otherwise go take a nap.
@@JohnS-il1dr give me ONE riot in which nobody was arrested. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Should be no laptops, no cell phones, no music, no anything. Should be players and cards only...not even help from the sidelines. You play at the table. If you are the best (or have the most luck), then you win. Anything else is a joke.
As a first time WSOP participant this year it was ABSOLUTELY offensive and ridiculous that the first thing announced before the cards went in the air was “and remember players no problem solvers at the table during play!” ?????? Everyone who didn’t already have a problem solver app downloaded immediately pulled oot the phone and downloaded one?!
The only tournament I’ve ever played in that I KNEW PLAYERS were factually cheating was this year at the wsop, easiest place to cheat period, trying to listen to IDIOTS SPEAK OM SOMETHING THEY COULDVE STOPPED BEFORE NOW IS PATHETIC.,.
hey u wanna cheat, play in the wsop, easiest tourney to do so period
The wsop became a joke when Negreanu and others were allowed to spend unlimited amounts buying in repeatedly.
@@scottsharp1763 the Nevada gaming commission defers many ruling decisions to the actual location where the game is being played. As I said the commission has never outlawed card counting on blackjack games and this is just human brain power, they leave it up to the individual casino to determine the level of counting that they will allow. It is not a legally unlawful act in a casino to card count it’s just a local casino rule that each casino applies for their own establishment.
I am a Magic: the Gathering tournament player and level 1 judge with only a casual interest in Poker. In our game we prohibit all use of digital devices unless to look up specific cards(which is obviously irrelevant to poker) and even then you need to do this in plain view of your opponent.
That said, if such rules are not implemented (yet) in poker by your tournament organiser, there is little you can do about this for now except push for rules changes or use the same type of advantageous software.
Get rid of the rail. Problem solved.
Creates more problems. Without the show, well there is no show.
@@Thanks-bj1foget rid of players being able to leave their seat to check the rail every single fuckkn hand there you go show goes on
@@infiniteregress8032 that makes sense, unlike the original suggestion
Isn't the show the actual.poker players playing poker? I've never turned on the WSOP because I wanted to see people on the rail. I want to watch some poker.
put the crowd in a different room where they can watch but not interact with the players.
Its not in the written rules bevause noone ever thought it would need to be included. Like you cant flip over your opponents cards before making a call, it doesnt need to be written down.
If laptops are allowed on the rail, there WILL sooner or later be teams who will use electronic signaling to pass along real time assistance in the middle of hands. Just need to rig a way to communicate what the player's hand is, and it's only 2 hole cards. The flop, turn and river are there for everyone to see, so no need for signaling on that part, just need the guy with the laptop to be able to see the cards on the board from the rail. Then a simple, Morse Code-style signal system as to whether to bet, raise, fold, how much to bet, etc. Somewhat difficult, to be sure, but hardly impossible, and for millions people WILL lick the necessary problems to make it work. This shit has to be stopped like YESTERDAY. Laptops and cell phones on the rail at these tournaments need to be banned. If you take your cell phone out of your pocket, you get ejected. Period.
you don't even need to do all that to give a pro player a MASSIVE advantage. You can give them exact GTO ranges and percentages with the right information. I'm sure a clever person could develop a system where they give a percentage call raise fold based on ranges with some sort of zapper or clicker. It's just silly what's possible now.
@George_Taylor_ bone conducting head set things are getting smaller and sleeker. You can literally get voice communication with zero sound leak out. One well placed camera that can gather and transmit the cards on the table. Could be on a player or spectator, or somebody who has control of their casino or area can rig it up easily overhead. If there's enough money to be won people will try to cheat.
@@mjh8492 no voice needed. 1 buzz fold, 2 buzz call, 3 buzz raise. Put it in a hat like in the MLB.
they were communicating. tomayo had an earpiece.
He had an earpiece, which explains why he had to pull his hoodie up over his ears while at the table/while playing and not up when he was standing at the rail. Next, one guy at the rail was only wearing one earbud which fell out at the end, but where was the other earbud? Inside the hoodie to communicate.
Calling Daniel a moron is a morons move in the poker world.
the wearing of the ear bud and the sketchy actions is not discussed enough...that is also cheating
Remember the good old days when we weren’t even allowed to get our cell phones out in the poker room?
I think that one of the worst parts that no one is saying directly is that with what they were doing, they could do range isolation in real time. THAT is pretty much cheating; rules or not.
tomayo was wearing an earpiece. they tried to remove it on the sly but got caught on camera. 100 percent cheating
That's exactly what they're doing. Range isolation at the micro level, 12bb, 15bb, 20bb, 24bb, 28bb, 30bb. It's insane.
Has anyone looked into the reasoning that the WSOP rules for the Main Event were NOT in accordance with the Nevada Gaming Commission where devices are concerned ? Something banned in one set of rules should be covered without any ambiguity.
There's a very easy logical way to determine if it deserves suing. If the use of solvers is now used against the casino instead of other players, do you not think the casino will be suing the player using the solver? This path of thinking will be much more straightforward
Phil Ivey edge sorting
@xancypillosi The difference in Iveys edge sorting was the casino agreed to it, and it was all within gaming commission rules. And even though he won, the casino still made money, they promoted it.
@@jamespearson00I’m still upset he lost that case. That makes zero sense
Both Dominik and the winner should be permanently banned from all future WSOP events for this.
Its a mistake of the floors and everyone present there. I wonder what can be done now, probably nothing.
They need to sue the casino and the wsop
How did no one complain and call the floor and get this shit stopped. Getting an advantage by help from other players or people on the rail should not be allowed period.
@@gfresh6 true although its though to blame the runner up, your are playing for a bracelet I bet he thought his best shot was to not entertain it and play his most focused game. Its a shame, I hope he gets the bracelet and the "winner" get disqualified like it often happens after the race is finished in F1 or even Atlheticism
"I feel like suing is embarrassing"
Dumbest take ever. If you're both cheating, then it's shameful to sue. No honor among thieves. But if you are playing by the rules and your opponent is cheating the right thing for society is to sue.
Suing is not necessary. The winner guy's name will be tainted and he'll forever be known as the poker pro that needed a whole team of other poker pros with RTA software, in real time, to beat an amateur. Hopefully it causes real changes in WSOP though
Which would you rather have - 4 million dollars, poker sponsorship deals, and a bracelet, or... *checks notes* "the other guy's reputation is tainted."
6 million won honestly the way poker was intended to be played > 10 million won by a team of poker scammer nerds
@anonymousXXXX6tell you banker that19
@anonymousXXXX619 I feel like most people are looking at Griff as the winner anyways regardless of the solvers Tamaywho?
Suing is necessary (no settlements though!). It forces a ruling that WSOP allowed breaking of the rules set by the Nevada gaming comity.
Next tournament/opportunity, the floor will walk up to the laptop user and check if no rules are being broken.
Please, as a segment prior to the discussion, explain the context of what was occurring for laymen.
6:10 Daniel is right, with one exception. If the Nevada Gaming Control Board were to bring charges and convict anyone on Tomato, a civil lawsuit to follow would not have to prove the cheating part, just the damages caused and would probably make suing a financially sound decision.
Regardless of criminal charges, you most likely sue the player, his team members, the operator and anyone they hired to provide cheating oversight if it wasn't all in house.
Yup.. I concur in your counsel
Definitely go to the Gaming Commission at least. This was a flagrant felony live on national television!
Sueing is not to receive a monetary compensation but to set legal precedent so there is no grey area next time.
makes me wonder if my poker opponents are using sims against me now too
Live no. Never a worry. Online it’s getting easier
if youre playing online, ofc they are
You don't know what "using sims" even means, so don't worry about it.
If you’re playing online they 100% are
Anyone who gambles online gets EXACTLY what he or she deserves.
No reason for anyone in the room, playing or watching, to have a phone. Millions of dollars are on the line, put your phone away for 8 hours and pay attention.
All the poker bloggers, like Brad Owen, will hate that.
Plenty of ways to film something without a phone. GoPro for example.
ok hitler, keep telling people what to do
Great edit! Commentary was smooth and the video wasn't about you, but you added continuity and gave us shorter format listeners the gist. I wanted to watch that Doug, keaton, Daniel pod. No time
Great comment, thanks a lot
The poker world seems a bit late to the party when it comes to cheating. In chess we've had this for decades, and the poker world can learn from what they do there. Cheating in online chess has become really, really hard. And in real life chess, you're not allowed to have a phone, or even a watch. Not even a normal analogue watch.
It doesn't matter how much was gained from using a solver. Or how hard that is to prove.
It gives SOME advantage.
It is illegal to do.
You should give up the prize money and split it among the table
I don't agree with the idea of making someone sit out rounds. In live play, that's a penalty. In tournament play, that's an ADVANTAGE, because that's how many hands where they're not losing anything. A half-hour of other players losing, while they're coasting. Like players arriving late on the last day of a tournament - they're getting an advantage, in that other players are being knocked out while they're not participating, and taking their own risks.
Rules violations should cost players some percentage of their stack. A minor violation results in 10% of their stack being added to the next hand. Whether they're forced to sit out that hand and not have a chance to regain that loss is a harsher penalty. On major violations that are close to, but not quite, good enough to be a total disqualifier should cost 50% of their stack.
Suing is not embarrassing. Sometimes it’s needed. Lawyers will let you know if there is a case. Discovery would be awesome if it went that far.
Alan Keating is such a lame for that take. I can’t believe he said that. He must care way too much about people think about him. He’s super insecure and goes to ridiculous lengths to try to look “cool” and like he DoEsNt CaRe
Solvers between hands do not just help with preflop ranges and decisions. They can provide guidance on the post flop decisions as well, based on own and opponent stack sizes.
facts
having someone help you does not make you a good player if you're a so called good player you won't need help from anyone. too me the best poker player is the one who can bluff the most or just gets lucky
@@Michael-u3n5l Naw playing at the WSOP and ggpoker getting to talk to a few of the top players stat wise, they all study in their own unique ways and most of them play with each other while they learn from each other in discussion so, that's not true dude. We all have to put in some work and learn from others success/failure that's what being a pro is all about! -Pro BBall player/ Pro-Bowler hopefully Pro-Poker champ too soon ;) 100
it's kind of like playing in a basketball game and one guy is allowed to travel over and over.. and no one says anything until after the guy has already won the title and is off with the trophy... "wait a minute... that guy was travelling the whole time"..
So lebron james entire career.
@@sugarnads lol
This is like flopping in basketball to get the ref to call a charge when it’s not. It deception and trickery to get an incorrect call. Is flopping illegal? No. Is it frowned upon? By some yes. By other it’s part of the game. Some ppl do it some ppl don’t. It’s an unwritten rule and takes away from the integrity of the game. Like hitting a player in baseball with a pitch after they hit your guy. Is that assault with a weapon?
All these situations depend on where you draw the line. Everyone is gonna say the line is right after what they’re doing. Daniel included. He said his notes during play are fine. But if someone wrote down every solver how is that different?
Why was there no talk of the ear piece in the Polk 3 way video?
There was a guy playing with paper note at the table while he had a hand and the floor is call and told you can't use side notes so why did they allow computerized side notes
Is it just me or isn't there a simple solution....just make a rule players can't go to the rail.....what am I missing?
no phones or laptops in playing room end of story
@@NrthrnKnght right!!
In case anyone is wondering imo this is the equivalent of playing a top level competitive game but you have a opening book of all forms as assistance to get u through the beginning part of the game
Correction of Daniel's statement at the 10:30 when he said you can't play with any aids according to the gaming commission rules, which are directed at the house games, but applies to poker as well. This is incorrect, you can't use computers or digital aids, but you can use paper aids, such as the basic strategy charts in the giftshop for BJ. Not a big deal in this case, but the gaming rules would not cover the use of preflop decision charts written down or printed out.
Nope. Paper notes are banned.
@halecarter7041 no, you can track decisions at house games all you want, and people use those basic strategy cards all the time.
@@MrZola1234House games perhaps. But not the WSOP.
@halecarter7041 my original comment was directed at his statement regarding gaming commission general gaming rules, not WSOP announcements or written rules that may be more restrictive. I covered that destinction very clearly in my original comment.
You're 100% right on what you said - of course you can use basic strategy charts, paper and pencil at baccarat, roulette etc. Without knowing, I assumed the gaming rules only applied to house games, but you clarified poker also.
I totally totally agree about the headphones one. At one WSOP event, I had a girl with her headphones literally DANCING in her chair to her music, kicking me under the tables, moving her head constantly and it was SOOOOO fricking annoying.
Alan Keating wants to make someone an offer he can't refuse!
And if he's not then he is making an offer they can't accept.
Alan Keating does make a cash-game more entertaining to watch and I applaud him for it.
The rule “one player to a hand” clarifies this i think. It should be the mind and knowledge of one player vs the mind and knowledge of another player. The line for me between a hand sheet and this is collecting and referring to past information VS utilising up to date new information.
7:07 exceedingly awful take by keating
a so called poker pro making a bad take what a shocker that is. The nuber of time Negraou had mis read or played extremely badly and gotten luck is untrue. Yet he is hialed as a poker genius nope just very lucky.
@@simonglancy7070 what
Hes under the impression they can solve it as men or poker players or as a prop. But this is pure scum. A guy doing this wouldnt be up for solving it like that.
Regarding "it's a slippery slope in whom you would sue", legally, that's very straightforward - the defendants would be the player, the guy who helped him, the venue, and the WSOP. You don't have to sue only one defendant.
What Alan said about suing...........I love this guy even more.
How many millions is he worth? Easy for him to say...
Yes yes, it’s the lawsuit that’s “unbecoming”, NOT the cheating teams colliding in tournaments
Yeah bro if you sue people you are not a man you are a pussy. As a man, you are supposed to just let people cheat and steal from you and do nothing about it.
He would never be able to show his face on the polo field again if he sued.
Bottom line ... in poker it's 1 player per hand, not 1 player+his rail+a solver running calcs... it's exactly what Negs said. A stain on the game. Hope in the future that the rail will be more heavily guarded and this kind of cheating/collusion can be prevented
We had an old saying back in the day.
"Don't tap the tank"
How does 'don't tap the aquarium ' apply here?
@@TomH... recreationals see this and don't want to play
"I find it unbecoming for people to use the legal processes available to them to right wrongs" is certainly a take.
Not one many people with brains would agree with, but it's a take.
Very easy to solve in the future. This is no different that using a performance enhancing drug. Simply no contact with the audience during play of the final table & the players should sequestered during breaks like a jury. Also no electronic devices at the tables & players should be scanned for any listening devices. Obviously you can't do much with the early stages of a tournament. However players are jumping around & changing tables, etc so it would be much harder to gain a significant advantage.
Stradle is a strong tool, it's a little reckless, but it does create alot more playable hands. Technically you could go all in pre-flop, it's complete madness gg's guys!
I also think Keating had a pretty tone deaf take here. His perspective as a billionaire playing against whales bears no resemblance to what it’s like to play as a normal low/mid stakes player.
Some people don’t want to be social, they want to play cards and listen to their music. Some people like to wear sunglasses. Who cares.
Maybe he wouldn’t allow it in his private $1000/$2000 game but that is not even in the same ballpark as your regular 2/5 game at your local casino.
Whats even the point of playing live at that point ? Just play online if you wanna chill and listen to music. And I say that as a mainly online player.
It's ironic because Polk wanted to use solvers in his HU with DNegs.
Also, I love how Dominik went from "you're a moron" to "I was just trying to help a friend".
4:49 respect to this kid
Listened for only 5 minutes, and I can confidently say this: Just because you CAN do something (if within the rules) doesn't mean you SHOULD do it. I could find loopholes to get an advantage at almost anything. Cheating and doing something wrong aren't always one in the same.
Embarrassing to sue for 4 million? Not for me. So what's 30% for the lawyer. Dom is a biachy
Yeah weird insecurity for that guy "it's not manly". It's not manly to lose $4m to a cheater on national TV and then roll over and do nothing, buddy.
I've never been at a casino poker table where electronics were allowed. You even pull your phone out to check the time and the dealer will say something.
"Using courts to solve your problems is unbecoming" - This is such a bad fucking take. Imagine giving up your right to due process because you think it's not manly
RIP poker.
Nooo long live
Unless a tournament's rules soecifically allow it, min-raising utg before you see your cards in a tournament is not a straddle. When the action gets back to the button, and no one else has reraised, the round is over and the flop is dealt. Utg does not get the option to reraise.
Its shady af but theres alot of money on the line. The floor could have stopped it. Sounds like a new rule is needed.
The fact that there's a lot of money on the line doesn't make it right. "Oh, it's for a lot of money, well then I guess we should give them access to a super computing facility then" It's supposed to be a problem you solve on your own and if you can't then you're just another in a long line of losers who aren't strong enough to get to the final table under their own power.
If this is allowed to stand there's now going to be scores of people using solvers, or people standing next to them with solvers. At that point you can just pack up the tournament and go home.
@@howardtreesong4860 it apparently was allowed.
Can anyone explain what the software does, I am a little unsure on this? Is it putting in peoples plays to help what moves to make in certain spots? Thanks in advance
Dominique Nitsche is behaving like a complete ass because he knows what he did was wrong. So he is being overly defensive and attacking all who criticize him. What a complete tool! These guys don't belong in poker and should be called out constantly. To use a solver in the WSOP main event final table in REAL TIME is so beyond the pale that to try and justify it shows a complete disconnect with the real world.
Just like in any high stakes venue, players have an incentive to push the boundaries of the rulebook. It's up to the tournament to have clear rules and enforce them appropriately.
"one player to a hand" is the first thing I was told the first time I sat down at a poker table in a casino. I was so angry and disappointed at this year's final table.
I'm not familiar with how the floor runs during a tournament. Is there not an official who should have commented or investigated this scenario as it was happening, and if necessary pause the game for an official ruling?
What would stop this from happening is to dig up the set from Mansion Poker's Poker Dome. I played in (and won) one of the first games played during their Press Conference, to introduce it to the world. They had a weekly televised game where winning players from around the world, playing on their online site, would be brought to the converted movie theater in the Neonopolis complex in downtown Las Vegas. The stage was set for live broadcasts of the games in front of a studio audience. Though the audience was shown the hole cards live, they could not relay information to the players. An electronic wall would go opaque, and a sound suppression system would keep the players from seeing or hearing the audience while a hand was in play. Players still got the adrenalin rush of playing in front of an excited, shouting audience between hands.
Lol saying sueing someone is unbecoming of a man is the wildest take of the day bro you are embarrassing being worried about that
I'm SO surprised none of the players or their 'teams(?)' called that out. And who was the tournament director?? That's absolutely nuts. Like disqualification and banned from the sanctioning body nuts
They say it's not worth the lawyers. Easy if you're already wealthy. Imagine if they were against someone who got their seat by their home league members each contributing to the buy in. Yeah, people like that still play the main event. Try telling them $4 million isn't worth suing over. Cheating is cheating
In the end is it going to be automated ai vs automated ai?
18:00 You may only use Walkmans provided by the venue with a cassette provided by the venue.
No more rails, cell phones, laptops, till tournament is over. Problem solved.....
Reminds me of 1981 Indy 500 where 2nd place sued because of rules violation by winner....also the Americas Cup back in '88/'89 I think where New Zealand sued San Diego Yacht Club after Dennis Connor built a catamaran to race against a monohull.
The problem is: players look at hands 1 hour after the hand...should this be allowed? Players are still going to get texted info on solvers on that, whether you believe it or not, a TON of players are getting solver analysis once the hand is seen. Unless you're willing to ban cell phones, you're not stopping it. Even then, friends will go to the rail and ask for info, the friend just won't be dumb enough to bring a laptop to the rail. So ban rail fans? Seems impossible
The WSOP has several controversies in the past that had to be put to rest prior to the following year's event. The current directorship needs to develop the most reasonable interpretation of rules and apply them with technology to resolve this stain from the fabric of live poker action.