It was meant as a historical record of who was there and what happened not as a story. What we have left is only a portion of the original whole so no beginning no end just the middle. The Trojan Horse appears in Virgil’s ‘Aeneid’.
Where would one go to get the classic stories of the horse and the heel? I need to go back and watch that video Michael did as to whose editing I should read. I read this book when I was a lot younger and still in junior high. I guess I got an edition made for young people from the school library. I read the Odyssey as well. It was stories like these and the mythology that made me want to be an archeologist. It was a downer when I found out how long they had to go to school. And I ended up going six years anyway for two degrees. I also went back for another year to get my teacher certification. I should have just stuck with the digging.
Archeology is fascinating, sorry you weren't able to pursue it. I think the horse and heel are in Virgil's Aeneid as well as The Odyssey (that's what other people are saying anyway!)
I haven't read the Iliad, but I would have assumed the Trojan horse was in it too! From checking online, apparently the Trojan horse appears in Virgil's Aeneid and is briefly mentioned in the Odyssey.
I read The Odyssey this year, and felt it's one of the best epic fantasy works in existence. I used the Fagles translation from the 90s, he also did the Iliad (which I haven't read yet. ) I did my homework a little about the pantheon of Gods and the House of Atreus (Agamemnon and Menelaus etc) That helped my enjoyment quite a bit. You don't even really see Odysseus until Book 5 of 24 (the first bit centers around his son.) But take it slow, it's very rewarding.
Favorite quote: “It’s got all that good stuff - re: beheadings, etc.” 😂😂. So Olly, if you knew from the beginning there was no Trojan Horse or Achilles, etc. would you have had a better experience? 🤔
I hadn't thought about it, but I think you're right about The Iliad being cinematic type action or a series. It's pretty impressive that you pushed through even if you didn't like it.
I remember laboriously translating lines from the Odyssey for school and found something like 'their brains splattered on the ground like puppies ' when the Cyclops killed a few of Odysseus's friends. 😱😂 I own a rhymed translation for adults by a very good children's book writer and am looking forward to rereading. In Dutch, so can't share.
You’ve totally articulated why I’m hesitant to get into Homer. I’m sure it’s a remarkable feat of literature, but I’m not sure it’ll be that enjoyable under a modern lens. I had to read The Odyssey in high school and it was okay, but I remember it being a bit dry. There is more action and creatures and adventure, but the writing style felt tedious.
I would definitely read the Odyssey. It’s a more concise and complete story. It has an epic slaughter at the end. It has a completely different feeling and some scholars thinks it takes its form from a story teller composing much later than the Iliad.
Love this review. I studied this at A level, with The Odyssey and a bunch of other Greek classic literature. I found a the Iliad really hard work and full of thick text of repetition and blandness. The Odyssey I loved, and will be reading that again next year.
Hi-I feel compelled to respond to your review-mostly because I am a huge fan of Greek classics and you seem to have missed why this story has survived for literally thousands of years. The Iliad is not really about the Trojan war it is about the wrath of Achilles. About what an amazing warrior he was. The title really should be “The song of Achilles” The story of the war would have been so familiar to any audience hearing it -which you have to remember is how the story should be experienced-all the details about Helen, Paris, the horse,etc. would have been well understood. (A lot of those details are in the telling of Odysseus’s travels home) The War lasted for 10 years. The Illiad tells only of the last few months. There are so few really amazing stories told anymore. Don’t miss this one because of a lazy translation❤️ It was never intended to be a book to be read. If you think reading it was difficult imagine the bards that actually memorized the entire poem! Imagine how it would have been told-over many days & all acted out.
Hello! Thank you for the comment, it’s really helpful to have the context to the story. I can definitely see myself having enjoyed it a lot more if I’d consumed it as was intended. Thanks again.
I had a similar experience to you when I read the Illiad, except I was 15 at the time, which I suspect made me less concerened by the repetitiveness than I would be today. I happened to come across a youtube video by a channel called lindybeige some years ago, called "The Illiad - what it is really about?", that builds towards kind of a punch line at the end, which gave me chills to watch. (And presumably some other people, too, since it was his most popular video at that time.) -> if you should be willing to risk wasting another 15 minutes of your life, there might be a chance that it might give your experience of reading the Illiad a bit of a spin. (He starts with the exact same observation you made in your video, btw.)
Interesting perspective. Your enthusiasm for the gore is funny - an acquaintance of mine once described it as "monotonous ultra-violence" - but I also really enjoy it. From my point of view as a classicist and a poet is that there's almost no reason to read a prose translation of the Iliad. The language and poetic artifice is a part of the enjoyment of the narrative, and - as songs and poems utilise repetition and motif to heighten enjoyment - the repetition of narrative, I would argue, only works on a poetic or minstrel context. (The same way you might get excited when the chorus comes back around in a song you like.) I'm personally very fond of Bryant's translation, but Alexander Pope's is historically very popular - I'm sure it's a lot to do with taste, as poetry is extraordinarily difficult to translate while maintaining the original effect. As far as the plot, I can definitely see why you'd come with those expectation. But the poet does name his theme at the beginning - the rage of Akhilles. The central arc of the story is this, how Akhilles' wrath was ignited, and how it finally relented. Then, of course, there are the interwoven narratives of the surrounding events, which have more to do with contemporary feelings about war and heroic death.
Monotonous Ultraviolence is a great way to describe it (also sounds like a good name for a metal band). I'd not even really considered the difference between the prose and poetry versions (which is daft really...) I do think when I come to read The Odyssey I'll try a poetry translation
@@CriminOllyBlog It's very understandable. I think my saying there's "almost no reason" was a bit too strong. For an introduction to the narrative, a prose translation can provide a good grounding, it just lacks a lot of the original effect, which is just compounded by the problem of translation. Ultimately, short of learning Ancient Greek, reading Homer or any of the ancient poets is about finding the version that works best for you. That might require a little research, but I hope it pays off and you find the version you'll get the best experience from!
I read The Iliad about six years ago and had a lot of the same thoughts about it as you. I recommend reading The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, which is a modern retelling of The Iliad, and which does have more of a back story, but is just an enjoyable read on its own merits.
A lot more back story. Also a lot more gay sex, if I recall correctly. She was certainly determined to make sure we were all on the same page about the two pals, Patroclus and Achilles. It's had a lot of good reviews, but I found the relentless YA-style a bit much for me. It really depends on whether you like that sort of thing, I suppose.
I feel like the action sequences of this book follow this formula: X, son of Y, from , whose backstory is blah blah blah, was struck down and stabbed in the and died. Repeat x1 billion. I was sad not to get the full story I had got from retellings. Wish the other bits were filled in. Just to warn you there’s hardly any Trojan horse in The Odyssey either- it may be mentioned in passing (I was gutted). I enjoyed The Iliad in spite of all this, and would read it again in a verse translation one day, although I may have to skip the list of ships. 🥱 Give The Odyssey a go, it’s way better. Also recommend The Silence of the Girls for a retelling of Achilles story from the pov of the women. Pat Barker does a great job.
Thanks Alice - completely agree about the action - lol I think I am going to give The Odyssey a go at some point - so many people have said it's better than the Iliad.
Olly, had you been alive in Homerian times, what do think your societal role would have been? Would you have been one of the storytellers learning the poem at (theoretical) Homer's feet and then spreading it throughout the land?
You absolutely need to do some background reading before getting into The Iliad. But don't think of it as homework. Find some readable retellings of the Trojan War first, and enjoy those: I recommend the trojan war by olivia coolidge
The story starts deliberately 'in media res'. The war's conclusion - Trojan Horse and all - is in the Odyssey. Loved it - but agree that it is repetitive AF.
I tried and DNF'd it twice. (I don't DNF). I did attempt the poetic translation (had to, the book was a gift). I've thought about trying the prose version but you've given all the reasons I needed to hear why that would be a waste of time. It'll be interesting to see if your subs decline because of this negative review 😉
You did it! I like The Iliad more than The Odyssey because one of the things that drives me crazy is a person being late.
Ha ha! That's great
It was meant as a historical record of who was there and what happened not as a story. What we have left is only a portion of the original whole so no beginning no end just the middle. The Trojan Horse appears in Virgil’s ‘Aeneid’.
Where would one go to get the classic stories of the horse and the heel? I need to go back and watch that video Michael did as to whose editing I should read. I read this book when I was a lot younger and still in junior high. I guess I got an edition made for young people from the school library. I read the Odyssey as well. It was stories like these and the mythology that made me want to be an archeologist. It was a downer when I found out how long they had to go to school. And I ended up going six years anyway for two degrees. I also went back for another year to get my teacher certification. I should have just stuck with the digging.
Archeology is fascinating, sorry you weren't able to pursue it.
I think the horse and heel are in Virgil's Aeneid as well as The Odyssey (that's what other people are saying anyway!)
I haven't read the Iliad, but I would have assumed the Trojan horse was in it too! From checking online, apparently the Trojan horse appears in Virgil's Aeneid and is briefly mentioned in the Odyssey.
Yeah, I think I'll be reading The Odyssey soon!
I read The Odyssey this year, and felt it's one of the best epic fantasy works in existence. I used the Fagles translation from the 90s, he also did the Iliad (which I haven't read yet. ) I did my homework a little about the pantheon of Gods and the House of Atreus (Agamemnon and Menelaus etc) That helped my enjoyment quite a bit. You don't even really see Odysseus until Book 5 of 24 (the first bit centers around his son.) But take it slow, it's very rewarding.
The Odyssey definitely seems to be the one that people prefer
Favorite quote: “It’s got all that good stuff - re: beheadings, etc.” 😂😂. So Olly, if you knew from the beginning there was no Trojan Horse or Achilles, etc. would you have had a better experience? 🤔
Maybe slightly better, but it still would have felt incomplete I think
I hadn't thought about it, but I think you're right about The Iliad being cinematic type action or a series. It's pretty impressive that you pushed through even if you didn't like it.
I guess I didn't hate it, the action was fun, it just wasn't the amazing experience I was expecting!
I remember laboriously translating lines from the Odyssey for school and found something like 'their brains splattered on the ground like puppies ' when the Cyclops killed a few of Odysseus's friends. 😱😂 I own a rhymed translation for adults by a very good children's book writer and am looking forward to rereading. In Dutch, so can't share.
Ha! Yeah there is definitely a lot of that kind of violence! Maybe the children's author will tone it down a bit!
You’ve totally articulated why I’m hesitant to get into Homer. I’m sure it’s a remarkable feat of literature, but I’m not sure it’ll be that enjoyable under a modern lens. I had to read The Odyssey in high school and it was okay, but I remember it being a bit dry. There is more action and creatures and adventure, but the writing style felt tedious.
I think that's it in a nutshell "great, but..." lol
I would definitely read the Odyssey. It’s a more concise and complete story. It has an epic slaughter at the end. It has a completely different feeling and some scholars thinks it takes its form from a story teller composing much later than the Iliad.
Yeah a load of people have said that so I think I'm going to give it a go!
Love this review. I studied this at A level, with The Odyssey and a bunch of other Greek classic literature. I found a the Iliad really hard work and full of thick text of repetition and blandness. The Odyssey I loved, and will be reading that again next year.
Everyone seems to like The Odyssey more! I think MKV sold me a duff one when he recommended The Iliad!
@@CriminOllyBlog hahaha clearly some people like it....
Enjoyed this honest and balanced (per usual) review!
Thanks Caleb!
Disembowelings and beheadings, all that good stuff, lol. 😆😆
😂😂😁
Achilles is such a badass, ancient times Rambo...
LOL yes totally
No Trojan horse! And I'm guessing no cigarette advert either.
LOL yes no cigs either
Hi-I feel compelled to respond to your review-mostly because I am a huge fan of Greek classics and you seem to have missed why this story has survived for literally thousands of years. The Iliad is not really about the Trojan war it is about the wrath of Achilles. About what an amazing warrior he was. The title really should be “The song of Achilles”
The story of the war would have been so familiar to any audience hearing it -which you have to remember is how the story should be experienced-all the details about Helen, Paris, the horse,etc. would have been well understood. (A lot of those details are in the telling of Odysseus’s travels home)
The War lasted for 10 years. The Illiad tells only of the last few months.
There are so few really amazing stories told anymore. Don’t miss this one because of a lazy translation❤️
It was never intended to be a book to be read. If you think reading it was difficult imagine the bards that actually memorized the entire poem! Imagine how it would have been told-over many days & all acted out.
Hello! Thank you for the comment, it’s really helpful to have the context to the story.
I can definitely see myself having enjoyed it a lot more if I’d consumed it as was intended.
Thanks again.
Great review...I can't remember if I read this in school...I think I did... but I really don't plan to re-read it!
I think that’s a wise decision!
I had a similar experience to you when I read the Illiad, except I was 15 at the time, which I suspect made me less concerened by the repetitiveness than I would be today.
I happened to come across a youtube video by a channel called lindybeige some years ago, called "The Illiad - what it is really about?", that builds towards kind of a punch line at the end, which gave me chills to watch. (And presumably some other people, too, since it was his most popular video at that time.)
-> if you should be willing to risk wasting another 15 minutes of your life, there might be a chance that it might give your experience of reading the Illiad a bit of a spin.
(He starts with the exact same observation you made in your video, btw.)
Ah thank you! I'll check that out!
@@CriminOllyBlog which of course brings us back to the problem of creating expectations that may negatively impact the experience 🙈 🙂
@@tsentenari4353 LOL
Yeah, The Odyssey is more entertaining, in a Clash of the Titans way. Interesting thoughts on The Iliad! Enjoyed! Cheers 👍✨✨✨📕📖📘
Thanks Max - glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting perspective. Your enthusiasm for the gore is funny - an acquaintance of mine once described it as "monotonous ultra-violence" - but I also really enjoy it.
From my point of view as a classicist and a poet is that there's almost no reason to read a prose translation of the Iliad. The language and poetic artifice is a part of the enjoyment of the narrative, and - as songs and poems utilise repetition and motif to heighten enjoyment - the repetition of narrative, I would argue, only works on a poetic or minstrel context. (The same way you might get excited when the chorus comes back around in a song you like.) I'm personally very fond of Bryant's translation, but Alexander Pope's is historically very popular - I'm sure it's a lot to do with taste, as poetry is extraordinarily difficult to translate while maintaining the original effect.
As far as the plot, I can definitely see why you'd come with those expectation. But the poet does name his theme at the beginning - the rage of Akhilles. The central arc of the story is this, how Akhilles' wrath was ignited, and how it finally relented.
Then, of course, there are the interwoven narratives of the surrounding events, which have more to do with contemporary feelings about war and heroic death.
Monotonous Ultraviolence is a great way to describe it (also sounds like a good name for a metal band).
I'd not even really considered the difference between the prose and poetry versions (which is daft really...) I do think when I come to read The Odyssey I'll try a poetry translation
@@CriminOllyBlog It's very understandable. I think my saying there's "almost no reason" was a bit too strong. For an introduction to the narrative, a prose translation can provide a good grounding, it just lacks a lot of the original effect, which is just compounded by the problem of translation.
Ultimately, short of learning Ancient Greek, reading Homer or any of the ancient poets is about finding the version that works best for you. That might require a little research, but I hope it pays off and you find the version you'll get the best experience from!
I read The Iliad about six years ago and had a lot of the same thoughts about it as you. I recommend reading The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, which is a modern retelling of The Iliad, and which does have more of a back story, but is just an enjoyable read on its own merits.
Thanks Steve, a few people have recommended that one to me recently so might well check it out.
The Silence of the Girls is also a great retelling told from the pov of the women.
A lot more back story. Also a lot more gay sex, if I recall correctly. She was certainly determined to make sure we were all on the same page about the two pals, Patroclus and Achilles. It's had a lot of good reviews, but I found the relentless YA-style a bit much for me. It really depends on whether you like that sort of thing, I suppose.
@@AliceandtheGiantBookshelf Oh interesting, thanks Alice
'Oi, Homer, you forgot the bloody Trojan bloody horse, you useless sod! Classic of world literature? Bollocks, more like!'
Exactly!
I commend you for even attempting it much more that you finished it.
Thanks Michael!
I feel like the action sequences of this book follow this formula: X, son of Y, from , whose backstory is blah blah blah, was struck down and stabbed in the and died. Repeat x1 billion. I was sad not to get the full story I had got from retellings. Wish the other bits were filled in. Just to warn you there’s hardly any Trojan horse in The Odyssey either- it may be mentioned in passing (I was gutted). I enjoyed The Iliad in spite of all this, and would read it again in a verse translation one day, although I may have to skip the list of ships. 🥱
Give The Odyssey a go, it’s way better. Also recommend The Silence of the Girls for a retelling of Achilles story from the pov of the women. Pat Barker does a great job.
Thanks Alice - completely agree about the action - lol
I think I am going to give The Odyssey a go at some point - so many people have said it's better than the Iliad.
The Song Of Roland is a bit better, but they had over a thousand years to improve on the epic poem formula.
📖🤔🧐
I’ve not heard of that one!
Olly, had you been alive in Homerian times, what do think your societal role would have been? Would you have been one of the storytellers learning the poem at (theoretical) Homer's feet and then spreading it throughout the land?
I think maybe yes. Although not sure I'm not a good performer!
You absolutely need to do some background reading before getting into The Iliad. But don't think of it as homework. Find some readable retellings of the Trojan War first, and enjoy those: I recommend the trojan war by olivia coolidge
Thanks for the recommendations, Joel
Throughly enjoyed The Odyssey translated by Emily Wilson
Thank you - I might try that version as been looking for a poetic translation!
It’s a poem. Why would you read it in this way? Nothing to gain“ It was OK”. 😂 “ It let me down”.😂😂😂
Curious: I'm reading The Odissey again...
I think I'm going to try that one soon
@@CriminOllyBlog Is more adventurous in some sense.
There was 8 volumes. The Iliad was vol 2 and The Odyssey was vol 7. The rest is lost, except quotes and retelling.
Ah that’s fascinating! I didn’t know that. Makes a lot of sense
The story starts deliberately 'in media res'. The war's conclusion - Trojan Horse and all - is in the Odyssey. Loved it - but agree that it is repetitive AF.
Ah, definitely need to give The Odyssey a go I think
I tried and DNF'd it twice. (I don't DNF). I did attempt the poetic translation (had to, the book was a gift). I've thought about trying the prose version but you've given all the reasons I needed to hear why that would be a waste of time. It'll be interesting to see if your subs decline because of this negative review 😉
Subs seem to be okay LOL
@@CriminOllyBlog You didn't go hard enough. A negative review of Lord of the Rings is probably the real test.
@@DDB168 I'd love to read that! Tried but the trilogy bored me to tears.
But I always agree to disagree. 🙂
There’s no bloody Trojan horse 🤣🤣🤣
Well I mean!
😂😂😂