1404 Rocket Stove For Mass Heating
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
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Thanks for the mention Robert.
To start the J tube drop a piece of lit paper down the chimney side and that will preheat the flu and get the fire burning in the right direction, mine uses an inverted jay with a batch box style (2 old gas cylinders welded together) with a drain grate inside for fuel to sit on and ash pan underneath which is also primary air intake forcing air too flow through the fuel (wood or coal) the other end of j then flows into oven which is a stratification or bell chamber before exiting flu from the base of the oven this extracts most of the heat from the fire before it goes out of the flu.
I've done way too much research into this lol, look up 'Erica and Ernie Weisner' as well as 'walker stoves' and of coarse 'Paul Wheaton' they do some brilliant videos on rocket mass heaters.
Hope this all helps with your build. :)
+1 to all of the great references you mentioned, especially 'Walker Stoves'. Lots of real testing of materials and designs. Would add Aprevecho to the list as well.
We built one like this with 6 inch tubing. It's using an old propane tank for the heat exchanger. My lovely bride covered it with cob and it's the finest wood burning heater we've ever used! Nice even heat. And no problem keeping the greenhouse and cabin nicely warm.
Could you put a video about it on RUclips?
In a previous life I used to operate a solid fuel appliance testing facility and I can assure you the tinkering can be endless and something of a dark art.
Coincidentally I will be replacing an old wood burner in my shed with a hybrid rocket mass heater later in the year so definitely more tinkering for me on the cards.
You did good my friend but a few modifications need to be done first install the rocket stove into a 55 gallon barrel and install it 6 to 8 inches from the bottom of the barrel with the exhaust vent at the same level on the opposite side of the barrel then add a access door for soot cleaning 90 degrees from the exhaust vent system on either the left or right side your choice at the 6 to 8 level from the bottom of the barrel and add a 6 to 8 inch long square tube right under the fuel supply tube for ash collection and use some kind latch system on the cap that keeps it locked when not in use that is the same size square tubing that is used for the fuel supply tube and convert the whole wood stove to run on wood pellets with a 60 pound gravity fed hopper system and on soot clean out access panel or door have it completely air when it is closed when not in use and also add a heat exchanger system that can be used for heating water on the exhaust vent system of the mass heater/stove and on the top side of the 55 gallon barrel weld a half inch thick piece of plate steel with reinforcements on the bottom side of the plate steel.
nice tips mate thanks for taking the time to post
So nice to finally see you make a rocket stove. The efficiency is in the sky. Well done.
That's really cool. Seems like it would be interesting to add a stirling engine for electricity generation, as you're making a lot of heat Anyway. If your "cold side" was the room you were trying to heat, you wouldn't be losing anything by it. 400C-ish seems like plenty to run one of those like a scalded cat.
He isn't allowed to do that
curses - you be a time to it lol
Just found great rocket stove source. YT Paul Weaton has alot to say about rocket heaters and water rocket heaters. Best source I've found to date. Insulate main chamber increases temp 1000 to 1800. Use mass to store heat for days. 1/10th the wood needed, higher temp with insulation doesn't burn wood faster. I might add a stainless coil to heat water for thermal mass through a thermal syphon.
Ceramic Fibreboard can be used instead as steel cannot handle the heat from a true RMH burn chamber or cheaper is casting using DIY refractory 👌 CFB is easiest to achieve the riser height and diameter
Hi Rob, love your video's and love tot see more. With that in mind, if you want to do lots more welding you really want to get some form of fume extractor. Metal and flux vapor tend tot mess up your lungs pretty fast.
A grinder and paint, makes me the welder I ain't!
yep lol
I had the same thought about the part where wood is placed not needing to be an exact height.
I had seen a video of a guy who showed a timelapse of what looked to be a long 4x4(10x10cm) post gradually being eaten away by the mass rocket stove.
Theoretically you could place pieces in even a few meters long, giving you a lot more than the usual half our or so burn time before it would need refilling.
I'll bet that was an awesome vid actually lol
That sort of works. In theory, it's good. In reality, the wood tends to get hung up on itself and then stops descending. The bottom then burns off making the wood top heavy. The wood then falls out of the stove and can catch the house on fire.
If your wood is much taller than the feed itself, you MUST babysit it or risk your house burning down.
You can also wrap the chimney with copper pipe as a water heater
I was thinking exactly that
Nicely explained & nicely done thanks Robert, what a cool system I've never used.
Thank you for sharing! I loved the video on the copper thermoelectric generator and was thinking you were going to do something with that in this video. I really like this idea though!
One thing I've learned with Rocket Stoves is, the intake pipe diameter or size will determine the smoke stack or out pipe. I believe the height should be at least 3 times the size of the intake opening, but I could be wrong and it may be 4 times.
The entire rocket stove should be made of the same size pipe for proper air flow so you never get smoke coming out the intake.
For ash removal, you could try a square sheet of metal that fits the inner diameter of the bottom tube/pipe. Weld a rod to it and leave it inside, when you're ready to empty it, pull the rod and it'll drag the ash out. Perhaps add an ash tray on the exit for ease of use
Or just turn it on its side and give it a quick shake 😅😝🙃
Just came along to this series for a quick look... I think it is gonna turn into a fun event! I shall be watching with interest... while I take breaks from the electronics I'm doing - all because of your inspiration!! 😁👍
With small burner like that, you can start small burn at base of chimney itself to heat and create draw, which determines flow in burn chamber once lit, avoids smoke escaping from burn chamber etc!
The key is insulating first part of chimney to create maximum draw and burn efficiency, which also avoids back draft of smoke etc.
In case of drum type heat sink, that leads on to mass heater, the chimney inside barrel should be insulated well, then heat hits underside of top and is forced sideways and down, which then heats entire outside of barrel, insulation on that internal part of chimney promotes the fall of hot gasses around it before exiting through horizontal pipework!
ahh - that's a big help mate - cheers
Great video again mate
Loved it, thanks for sharing 👏
glad you like it mate
3:40 A grinder and paint will make you the welder you ain't. 😎😎
the bottom of that fire tube extend it so it fits under the back boiler thats also the water heater now surround the fire inside the hearth with fire bricks, storage heater bricks
Nice choice of topics Robert!!! I have been planning to do one of these myself. I also wish to incorporate a fan for rapid starts and hotter temps, as well as stainless or graphite coils for water heating, and some form of thermionic generator, well...just for grins! I've seen these used in garages with separate air intakes and exhaust so it does not suck the air out of the room.
Lastly, less you not want to use it, need to incorporate a real easy way to dispose of ash as that's a real pain. :)
when I was a kid we had solid fuel in my house - I know about ashes lol - it was my job to set the fires in the morning
@@ThinkingandTinkering There's something really gratifying about slowly shovelling ash, or is that just me, 😂cheers.
@@ooslum We'll put you in charge of the ashes! Lol
@@l0I0I0I0 😳😂
I can see this becoming a workshop heater using up old pallets. What would be really cool is a hopper to feed the wood in.
I agree mate
The wood input is the air feed. a horizontal air input isn't needed.
A combined (portable ish) stove and mass heater can be made by using concrete in an old 20 plastic drum or similar, and either cardboard tubing or shaped polystyrene etc to form void and internal shape of rocket stove once burnt out.
Once concrete dry, remove outer mold and either burn out or dig out polystyrene etc, and away you go!
Word of warning: Rocket Mass Heaters get intensely hot inside, on the order of 1000°C (when using larger, insulated designs). This coupled with excess oxygen will burn carbon out of the steel and turn your combustion unit into a pile of shards in very short order!
Little cook stoves with no insulation are generally ok in metal but when building a permanent heater install, absolutely build the J-tube out of refractory materials!
I was thinking the same myself. In the drive for efficient burning, the temperature has to be raised and as you point out this degrades the steel. Lining with refractory bricks is the only way to protect the steel.
@@JohnnyMotel99
Correct. After scaling up a couple inches, it becomes easier to just build the things from masonry entirely.
They stop being portable as their weight goes right through the roof. For that, you get a very intense source of heat that is also very clean. These stoves don't smoke and chug along happily up in the 93-95% efficiency range, outside of a laboratory and consistently.
@@SundogbuildersNet In places like Siberia, I have seen these huge brick 'furnaces' which are central to the house. They fire them up once or twice a day, run them very hot for a while, then the stored heat keeps the house warm for hours.
@@JohnnyMotel99
Yeah. Those are a type of Masonry Stove, an Eastern European solution that is very old. Rocket Mass Heaters (which I've been working on for the last 20 years) is a kind of subset of Masonry Heaters.
Same basic idea though RMH are generally cheaper and easier to build. A good Masonry Heater will easily cost $10,000 dollars just to get in the door, while an RMH can be cobbled together for less than $1000 and I can show you how to build them with trash, scrap and mud for nothing.
Nice add a coil of copper tubing and it's tea time.
yep lol - I like it mate
I found if the chimney was bigger in diameter than the inlet, you get a venturi effect, which makes the air draw faster, and it gets super hot ! I had wood pellets in mine with quarter inch wall thickness steel tube, that glowed red hot, from no more than a handful of pellets.
yeah I was reading about that - it is interesting
When you step up in size from 4 inch to 6 and 8 inch stoves, this effect drops off and stops being significant. Generally, the best practice is to maintain constant cross sectional area through the combustion unit.
This is a subject you can delve into at great depth ..... or just have a play!
One thing I would call into doubt is the legendary efficiency. Just on a pure physics level it does not make sense how one of these can be more efficient than a well designed gassifying log burner. Both pyrolyse the wood and burn the gas produced and there is a fixed amount of energy in the wood you burn. The main difference for me is the speed of the burn. This means your rocket stove will generate a great deal of heat and do it quickly. The flip side is that you will need to stoke the fuel more often and they rely on thin pieces of wood.
I have a class A log burner that chucks out up to 5KW of heat and can send any adult into a tupour "watching the faeries" and I have found long after the fire had died away the chimney remains warm .... this is noticeable in the bedroom above the fire as well! All evidence of how well a thermal mass can work! I look forward to see the end product in the shop. ..... as well as the journey to get there! ;o)
I think they are basically a gasifying log burner - I think the benefit really comes in the simplicity and adaptability of the build
@@ThinkingandTinkering Exactly! .... and the Fun!
You got to sit and drop fuel into the square tube all the time then it gets blocked with ash and wood charcoal dust
lol - you do indeed
“Short bus life” lmao awesome
here is his vid ruclips.net/video/2VSksYbh7js/видео.html
@@ThinkingandTinkering thank you
When you finally put concrete around it to turn it into a mass heater, you could baybe make the whole stove out of concrete and make it even more accessible for non-welders.
A grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain't.
HI Rob. I made a vortex rocket stove, I would love if you had a look it might give you A few ideas. Keep up the good work.
I will look into it mate - cheers
These things are great, and are VASTLY more efficient than an ordinary wood stove, when combined with thermal mass. So they are cheap, can be almost carbon zero (using sustainable wood), and very low emissions.
I'd be super-insterested in any observations and explorations you might make on thermo-electric energy (from such a stove) A few years ago there was a big thing made about carbon nanotube based seebeck generators, but it seems like it never really came to fruition.
I like how cheap , easy and adaptable they are - it seems they can be made in lots of different ways
Junk mail can finally serve a purpose :)
@@ThinkingandTinkering Yes, 4 breezeblocks works great. Some cast iron pipe and sand for mass... just about anything can be used. Even holes drilled in a big log.
Nice job. May just make one myself.
go for it mate
Please find yourself a sgs gas supplier and get yourself a bottle of gas. 10 or 20 ltr initial outlay is 160 to 200 ish and then refill is 75ish but no monthly fee.
Having a mig with flux core is ok but the difference is night and day. After all its your fault I have a ££1000 welder 😂
The other this is I have to wonder if you used some flexible hose around the flue to the bottom hatch whether it would increase the burn? I saw a smokeless pit that used a preheating of air intake that worked really well
I like the no monthly fee bit - I will have look mate - cheers
Most of the stoves I've seen bring the air in around the wood that is burning witch means that the vent stack has to be at least 3 x the height but it can be floor to ceiling if you so desire. In this way you can feed wood much longer than the metal of the stove. Gravity feed of course
I think people came to the conclusion of using bigger diameter tubes from trial and error. Bigger tubes draw more effectively and also allow for bigger bits of wood to be used. I think the pressure differential caused by the hot and cold gassed is quite low, so any restriction on the flow has a big effect.
Is there a solid state device that converts heart into electricity.
Eg Thermoelectric generator (TEG), also called a Seebeck generator.
This is my favorite configuration -- a fuel port with no backdraft issue, and a large, low air intake.
Your diagram makes it look a lot like a Russian / Finnish fireplace masonry heater. My uncle was a mason and made these.
My advice is, get an oxy-acetylene kit and learn to use that instead of a welder. It can do everything you need for working metal. It can cut, weld, braze, solder, heat, anneal and temper most common metals. There is a torch called a cobra or henrob 2000 that is amazing. Plenty of youtube videos on it.
Unhindered air flow, uninterrupted fire and Ash removal.
Would welding a tube underneath (same measurements) with grates or holes drilled in the area of the burn chamber, help with better (unrestricted) air flow and the collection of fallen ash?
Great videos, sub'd ages ago.
Thank you for the uploads, each and every one of them.
I like this idea, I dont see how the diagram fits in with how you are describing what you will make though. you can make a rocket stove from two pieces of tube in an L shape if the bottom of the L is 2 levels, one for the fuel feed and a lower one for air, Ive made that style from scrap cans for cooking on, they can produce an amazing amount of heat on very little fuel
there are quite a few designs to there mate from simple cans to much more complex builds - it's really horses for courses
Hi Robert, Can i ask, where did you get your steel tubing from, as thinking of building my own? John
why not add a higher surface area to the chimney and make it more like a heat sink so that it catches as much heat as possible?
After you figure out a final design, it would be cool to see a tiny version made out of a castable refractory 😃.
I agree mate
❤️
If you really want to have a lot of fun get an oxygen and acetylene tank you don't have to get a great big setup just get a small setup a couple of 40 lb bottles perhaps and breathing is a lot of fun and you can weld with it as well most people don't call it welding anymore but it technically it is welding when you use certain metal rods for filler when you use brass rod it's considered breathing it doesn't penetrate at all but it is very very strong and one advantage is it's very good for welding cast iron or should I say breathing cast iron a fixing cast iron to each other if you will but it's a lot of fun it's very fast and I just love it I've got a pretty nice mig setup too. I got a pocket full of money right now and I'm thinking about getting a TIG set up but I just don't want to let go of the money I'm still thinking about it
Hahaha as the saying goes a grinder and paint make me the welder I ain’t lol
That chimney doesn't look 4 times the length of the short piece (fuel inlet).
They sell grinders and paint to make you the welder you ain't!
You could easily add tubing to turn excess heat into a steam turbine, lol.
yes you could lol
Awesome, going to heat water with this thing
I am too!
I hear a tiny whisper saying that you might try plasma gasification by pointing a magnetron at the flame and then dumping trash into the fire. Another thing that could be awesome would be a fire laser. In don't think anyone has ever made a laser where most of the energy came from a bonfire.
no - I don't think they have - interesting idea mate
Could you create a countercurrent heat exchanger for the intake air by creating a coaxial chamber around the chimney/burn chamber, i.e. intake on the outer perimeter of the top of the chimney.
There is no such channel as shop bus life!
I think he said “short bus life” but I haven’t searched for it.
here you go mate ruclips.net/video/2VSksYbh7js/видео.html
I could not catch the name of the recommended name / channel at about 30 sec marker.
Hi Robert, I have searched everywhere but cannot get box cut and delivered for £20. Please if you could send the link, it would be great. Our local steel stock holders say they cannot get it sold and cut anywhere like that price. Best regards Roy
Mig welding with shielding gas is so much better than stick or using flux cored wire. None of the thinking a weld is good, to then find it is flux holding parts together. Lol
Tig seems even better because in theory can weld pretty much any metal. No bending of rod making positioning diffificult due to magnetic field and current interactions. And while probably bad practice, can easily remake/patch up a poor weld as going along, often by reheating it. As an experiment iI've even used a random bit of old metal strapping as a filler rod.
Only issue... My cheepish tig inverter doesn't have a HF starter... So it is "scratch start"...
Very much like using a blow torch and is great once arc struck.... But I tend to burn the tungsten electrode out due to how frequently it gets stuck on workpiece with my inexperienced efforts!
I love the learning curve of welding to be honest mate
Nice job... I'm curious as to why you didn't angle the feed chamber like you did on the first one. I'm pretty sure it will not chimney smoke if you did.
really just to make room and square everything off so it is easier to build around
Vertical feed encourages the wood to drop on it's own better. This keeps the tips of the wood better positioned in the pyrolization area for more of the combustion cycle. Less babysitting as well (which is considerable in J-tube RMH).
If you have not oversized the mass/heat exchanger, your proportions are correct and your chimney is properly heated, smokeback isn't really a problem.
I tried the L shape and it sucked, cooking a steak took much longer than usual. Maybe the tube was too small (800mm) or the height ratio was wrong, but I wasted time and steel with that, I should have made a J type instead.
Just out of curiosity what happens if you introduce a slope on the base section up towards the chimney section? I’m not talking too steep but an inch or two over the length. It would aid in the draw on lighting and may reduce that smoking issue quicker upon lighting which would help on an indoor burner. You could test this simply by putting blocks under the chimney end to test (it would put your chimney out of plum but for the test shouldn’t matter as if it works then you could cut and weld the angles)
A slope increases friction and makes it harder for the wood to descend on its own. You'll have to babysit the fire more with the feed on a slope.
@@SundogbuildersNet I’m talking about an inch or two over the length of the base and initially as a trial. If it worked better with the angle as I mentioned you could alway cut the angle to both the chimney and the feed tube to make them plum. So there is no change to the fuel being fed to the fire.
I've tried different angles, from slight to about 45°. What I've found over the years is that the angle doesn't really help and causes other issues instead.
Turns out that the best position is a vertical feed in a J-tube stove. The benefits from this arrangement outweigh any possible issues with it.
Smoke back on starting the stove can be prevented by good lighting procedure.
What I do appreciate about your comments here is that you're already thinking about wood burning as a fluid dynamics puzzle. This way of thinking is key to figuring stove stuff out and you're already on the right track. Be aware that fluid dynamics are rather non-intuitive at times. We're taught a handful of thinking shortcuts about fire and the like that generally work in a lot of cases but aren't particularly accurate and don't apply to all cases. These shortcuts (like heat rises) can get us in trouble when applied outside of their use cases. Rocket stoves, in particular Rocket Mass Heaters, tend to be outside of those cases and unfortunately, our simplified thumbnail models kind of fall down there.
Please make sure you are well protected by carbon monoxide and dioxide detectors! I like this project and your pivot on viewer suggestion😎
cheers mate
What do you do with the ash build up
Looks like it will be a good little set up Rob. Can they be set up to burn cob pellets or as an oil burner I wonder?
Cob pellets should be no problem with a wire cage.
@@Barskor1 Awesome! Thanks!
it is fun to explore mate and I am looking forward to using it for real
@@Killianwsh You are very welcome.
You can easily make it a drip oil burner
I wonder if you can miniaturize a wood stove even more (while still burning regular size fire wood), what is the minimum size that can be achieved?
Qualitively..
Heat is lost from fire through exhaust gases, light etc, but unless exceptionally well insulated, heat is also lost through metal walls.
Ratio of surface area to volume...
(applies to all shaped tube but quicker to explain with round tube)
As diameter of round tube is reduced, both it's volume and surface area reduce... But volume reduces quicker. If that ratio gets too high a fire will loose more heat than it's volume is releasing... Result... It cools. Potentially to point where it goes out.
NB there's been developments in chemistry which utilise the quenching properties of say tiny diameter tubes vessels. to perform reactions which would otherwise run too fast/generate too much heat/and generally go bang in a dangerous way, if they were performed on a large scale.
It's also part of reason why artic animals tend to be bigger, rounder with large ears than non artic species . The size and general shape helps them conserve heat. The big ears provide them with an option to loose heat when they want/need to say if they running.
it would be an interesting challenge to fine out mate!
to be honest mate - I was thinking about this and to a degree isn't losing heat to the room the whole point of this? I was thinking that what you want to do is burn the wood efficiently then pass the heat to the surrounding room - not sure what I am missing here?
4 inch stoves are about the lower practical limit for useful heating. At this size and smaller, the proportion of surface area to volume goes too high and friction starts becoming a real problem. One can build little cook stoves out of cans but at this scale, they become less efficient and more problematic the smaller you go.
@@ThinkingandTinkering
To burn efficiently, you need intense heat in the combustion area. What we do is insulate that really well and only release heat to the room after combustion is complete.
Couldn't find "Short Bus Life" :( Link?
here you go mate ruclips.net/video/2VSksYbh7js/видео.html
🙏👍🙏
You can't have the fuel tube and your air intake tube open at the same time without running the risk of your fire climbing up the fuel.
more about the mig welding when I'm not so rubbish at it. ROFL
why would you let the letter Jay become the letter F and still call it the letter Jay? it is a saxophone 1, 2, 4 design.
Stop! Every time I start one of your videos, you introduce it by referencing a previous one.
Is there an end to this recursion??
You are Rick Sanchez AICMFP ;)