Correction, the .45-55 Gov and the .45-70 Gov is the exact same cartridge. The only difference is the lighter powder charge in the .45-55 (55 grains of black powder verses 70 grains thats in the .45-70). This was done to reduce recoil in the Model 1873 Trapdoor carbine. Both cartridges will cycle through the Gatling gun. Other than that, great video.
They may have 'saved' custer by making his column too slow to actually catch up to the indians .. or perhaps they might have slowed him down enough for some of the other converging columns of US troops to reach the area in support.
Thank You. I did not know that that model of Gatling could not be rotated upon its own carriage. but that the whole carriage had to be manhandled by the trail. From what I have read over the years, especially the archeological reports and mapping of battlefield artifacts after wildfires had burned off decades of grass and brush overgrowth, was that the Indians were far better equipped with repeating rifles than had been previously known. The terrain allowed the Indians to engage the cavalry at ranges where the rate of fire of their weapons overwhelmed the rate of fire of the weapons of the Cavalry. Given the terrain, the Gatling guns offered would not have been able to keep pace with the battlefield. Some experience in Vietnam with Quad Fifty Guntrucks. Battery E, 41st Arty.
Another excellent video! Interestingly, on June 21st, Major James Brisbin, commander of the Montana Column’s cavalry attachment approached Gen. Alfred Terry, commander of the 1876 Expedition and asked Terry on behalf of Lt. William Low, commander of the Montana Column’s Gatling Gun battery, of Low's wish to accompany Custer’s force. Terry told Brisbin to ask Custer. Surprisingly, Custer at first said “yes” but within the hour recanted the decision: “I don’t want Low with me; I am afraid he will impede my march with his guns.” Custer obviously consulted with Reno as to his scouting experience the previous week with Low’s one gun. As you mentioned, the gun had overturned while ascending high ground injuring three troopers causing a delay for repairs, and was also unable to keep up with Reno’s hurried march to Terry’s camp on June 19th. Reno in frustration temporarily cached it. No doubt, Reno must have encouraged Custer not to handicap his march up the Rosebud with the guns.
Cavalry needs unimpeded mobility and speed. Gatling Guns are heavy and cumbersome..designed for defending a fixed position.. Gatling Guns would only have helped Custer if his plan was to go out on the plains and park his horses on high ground and wait for the Indians to come attack his position. We already know that Custer had no intention of sitting on his backside waiting.
My ancestor Samuel Meddaugh was an NCO assigned to mountain artillery. His diary from the summer of 1876 confirms that Custer wanted to move fast and cover a lot of ground because the army did not know where the Indians were. Custer had left Terry's camp on June 12th and Terry learned of the battle on June 27th (via some Indian scouts) according to his diary.
Even if Custer had the Gatling guns, there is still the issue of getting them deployed to a defensible site. By the time they would have known that the battle had shifted from offense to defense (and that happened quickly), there simply wasn't enough time to set up a rally point to deploy the guns. You just don't know ahead of time which direction your retreating troops are going to be heading. And there is no way Custer was going to set up a defensive retreat point ahead of the battle. He simply didn't think he would ever need one.
The guns may have been useful in Reno's valley fight if he had gotten them into action quick enough. But I don't think Custer would have taken them with him on up the valley. He was looking to cut off the retreat of the Women and children hopefully stopping the fighting.
The British Army tried to use Gatling guns around the same time during the Zulu war and Nile campaign in Sudan, both in terrain better suited against largely infantry type enemies, albeit many, many times more numerous and fanatical than the Sioux. They largely failed, too mechanically unreliable and difficult to deploy. Gatling guns were purely a step towards machine guns and it took another 40 years before the usage of machine guns were properly employed.
Simple answer: No. They wouldn't have. Complicated answer: 1. He didn't have enough of them. The 7th CAV had, at most, 6 guns available to it 2. The Army had not yet developed any kind of doctrine about company level support weaponry. They were treating Gatlings [and other rapid-fire experiments] like batteries of artillery. 3. The Gatlings of the era were prone to jams and fouling to both the barrels and the feed system. 4. Crazy Horse had enough warriors available to simply outflank a battery of Gatlings, kill their crews, and proceed with the attack. So no, the most likely outcome would be that the Gatlings wouldn't have been a substantial help in overcoming the crippling deficits of Custer's own ego and stupidity.
Great video, I have been waiting for the spectacular video since you did the initial interview at Fort Laramie. I think you did great job with the narrative. Looking forward to other productions.
3 considerations to ponder 1. The Laramie museum had a statement posted on their gatling gun about its proclivity to jam due to the use of black powder. Is that not true? 2. The Terry column brought the guns but they constantly fell behind the rest of the column by a full day's march negating the chance of surprise as was achieved by Custer. Perhaps no battle would have occurred at all. 3. The Custer detachment was overwhelmed most likely after they expended thier ammo supply. Hauling guns of limited utility would have reduced ammunition supply for Reno Benteen which may have resulted in a worse disaster. My conclusion, Custer made the correct decision
The Nez Perce took the artillery pieces from the Army at the Big Hole battlefield. If they had known how to load and fire them the Army would have been doomed! Same would have happened at Little Bighorn.
Short answer: No. He wouldn't have had them with the advance column, he wouldn't have had time to set them up with how quickly he was hit. Gatling guns were also often prone to jamming, problems with field maintenance and difficulty setting up against enemies that preferred ambush hit and run tactics.
Considering the amount of firepower Gatling Guns can throw down..why wouldn't Custer,Benteen and Reno place those guns at the tip of their Cavalry Charges into the village? I'll tell you Too Heavy,Too slow,Worn out horses towing heavy carriages and ammo crates over undulating and cratered terrain..they couldn't get the guns unlimbered,positioned and firing on the village Quickly not to mention losing any element of surprise. Possible..but unlikely Benteem being 'Tail end Charlie' could have been given 3-4 Gatlings,split his force into 3 groups and place on high ground above the village and a gun covering avenues of approach or in a position to rain bullets down on warriors attacking or retreating while engaged with Reno and Custer...time consuming,Considering Cavalry tactics that speed and maneuverability are paramount..think about it for a minute or 2..what i posted here is exactly why Custer refused weapons that are too heavy too cumbersome and are a nuisance to incorporate into Cavalry attacks
Would love to see you do a video on the Seminole Wars. Although it may not technically be western, I feel like it'd fit right into your niche of Native wars.
Wouldn’t have hurt. It couldn’t have turned out much worse. I have always said there was a reason that Custer graduated last in his class at West Point.
Agreed. Last Stand Hill has been greatly altered since then to accommodate the monument and parking areas. It originally only had about 30 ft. Of open area at its peak. Calhoun Hill would have been better suited, but still had several large ravines leading up to it that would have had to be covered. And the crews would have been exposed to return fire, especially indirect fire from arrows fired from cover.
The British used them at ulundi, the last battle of the zulu war.... It was a massacre, but, the brits fought in battle squares..... Idk, what do you think.... Perhaps from the high ground....?
I would imagine that the men manning the Gatling Guns would have attracted a lot of attention and they would have been pretty easily flanked. They would probably have been some of the first casualties. I'd think one advantage might be that the attention of some of the Indians would have temporarily drawn part of the attack away from Custer. There might also have been a fear factor. All things considered, the advantage might not have been the rate of fire, but a temporary reduction in the force attacking Custer, more time to reload, and perhaps a little more time to maneuver. In the end the result would have been the same but the field might have been a bit more spread out.
The 7th had no wagons during their last days... The pack mules hideously slowed down the column and badly stretched it out. Congress refused to pay for quality horses to draw the Gatlings... The Army was forced to purchase animals that had already been rejected as Cavalry remounts. *Maybe* Reno/Benteen on the hill where they were under siege *might* have gotten some decent service out of a Gatling... *if* it ever could have made it there. . As to Custer's five troops...no more than one died specifically at Last Stand Hill... the rest had been deployed over too much terrain in anticipation of being an attacking force. *If* a Gatling could have made it to Last Stand Hill...most likely the four man crew would have been killed before they could have ever deployed it. This wasn't an MG-42 that could have been fired from the prone position. The troopers there under fire from all sides. Many of the Sioux and Cheyenne rode up to within 50 meters and then dismounted... (relatively small number of dead Indian ponies on the site confirms that large number of warriors dismounted and firing from cuts in the terrain.) . In 1893 Rhodesian police and militia deployed Maxim guns against the Matabele...(a Zulu offshoot) to great effect... But the Europeans were laagered up in prepared positions...and the Matabele impis advanced in thousands...shoulder to shoulder... They attempted to overrun the Rhodesians and thousands were killed. But the Sioux and the Cheyenne had no such notion... a large percentage fought from behind cover...rifles and bows...and only closed for the kill in the last moments... Other than a couple of battles where the Matabele attacked in packed masses against prepared defenses... the Maxim guns were not of much use... -YP-
Interesting & awesome information,1 maybe 2 might have been helpful or changed the outcome,but as stated they're heavy & not suited for ruff country,let's not forget 1 thing,Custers arrogance & attitude,he said many times he could ride through the Sioux Nation with just a unit of men,as recorded he didn't listen to his scouts about the actual size of the encampment & how many warriors there was,but a great video & great therory
Well, we can go on commenting on something that’s very difficult (and controversial) to really know if it would’ve made a difference, the British used Gatling guns on some of their battles with the Zulus in South Africa and the weapons made a huge difference. So who knows what would’ve happened?
Wasn't he offered another regiment of Cavalry as well as the Gatlings? If so, I believe the additional troops, coupled with the Gatling Guns could have made a difference.
It wasn't another regiment, it was just 2 or 3 companies, barely another 100 men. With the number of hostile warriors present, Custer would have needed way more than that to accomplish the victory he was looking. He was operating on bad strategic intelligence and would not reconsider even though all his scouts told him that there were way more Indians than he believed.
Wait, the Gatling guns had no traverse and elevation mechanism? How so? Such a gun without adjustment possibilities sounds like a really stupid concept. What do I miss?
If he would have had regular artillary it would have been different or a Sherman tank. Every disaster people want to blame someone. Bad intell was equal as was the shortage of horses mentioned. More were lost on the Indianapolis and fewer worry over it like Little Big Horn
The British had rockets and artillery at Islandwana and it didn’t save them because they were too spread out, Custer made the same mistake 4 years earlier
Custer’s ego got his men killed rather than the lack of Gatling guns. Two large losses of innocent lives make me hate two men in history: Custer and Capt James Mason of the SS Sultana. Ego and greed.
The government policy was to convince the Indians to return to the reservations. Custer wasn't trying to kill as many Indians as he could. Custer's objective was to surprise the Indian village and then destroy or capture as many horses as possible. No horses, no raiding, the reason the Indians left the reservations. The Army preferred the 3" ordinance rifled cannon because it gave more bang for the buck. It wasn't needed here. The LBH was truly a scandal that can be laid at the feet of Grant.
The decision not to take guns was actually a wise decision. They would not have helped much anyway. I'm glad they didn't have them because more tribesmen may have been injured. Colonel Custer took many with him in his string of bad decisions. He should not have been there. But it will always serve as a good Operation to study.
Great video Travis. If Custer did manage to get the Gatlin gun to the battle site, I would guess with the massive number of Indians charging the 7th causing such mass disarray amongst the men that the gun would have had little effect since the gun base did not swivel. That said, Custer miss calculated the size of his enemy and was ill prepared. Plus his big ego did not help. Good Job.
NO they would have done nothing. To big, to bulky and way to difficult to aim at fast moving targets. To think they would have made a difference in a large gorilla fighting force is stupid illogical thinking.
Correction, the .45-55 Gov and the .45-70 Gov is the exact same cartridge. The only difference is the lighter powder charge in the .45-55 (55 grains of black powder verses 70 grains thats in the .45-70). This was done to reduce recoil in the Model 1873 Trapdoor carbine. Both cartridges will cycle through the Gatling gun. Other than that, great video.
While they will cycle, both powder charges are loose-cake black powder. That charge has a nasty habit of fowling Gatlings or any other rapid-fire arm.
Good catch. Not sure what Caliber Terry/ Custer had available to them though. Thanks for watching!
They may have 'saved' custer by making his column too slow to actually catch up to the indians .. or perhaps they might have slowed him down enough for some of the other converging columns of US troops to reach the area in support.
Thank You. I did not know that that model of Gatling could not be rotated upon its own carriage. but
that the whole carriage had to be manhandled by the trail.
From what I have read over the years, especially the archeological reports and mapping of battlefield
artifacts after wildfires had burned off decades of grass and brush overgrowth, was that the Indians
were far better equipped with repeating rifles than had been previously known.
The terrain allowed the Indians to engage the cavalry at ranges where the rate of fire of their weapons
overwhelmed the rate of fire of the weapons of the Cavalry.
Given the terrain, the Gatling guns offered would not have been able to keep pace with the battlefield.
Some experience in Vietnam with Quad Fifty Guntrucks. Battery E, 41st Arty.
Another excellent video! Interestingly, on June 21st, Major James Brisbin, commander of the Montana Column’s cavalry attachment approached Gen. Alfred Terry, commander of the 1876 Expedition and asked Terry on behalf of Lt. William Low, commander of the Montana Column’s Gatling Gun battery, of Low's wish to accompany Custer’s force. Terry told Brisbin to ask Custer. Surprisingly, Custer at first said “yes” but within the hour recanted the decision: “I don’t want Low with me; I am afraid he will impede my march with his guns.” Custer obviously consulted with Reno as to his scouting experience the previous week with Low’s one gun. As you mentioned, the gun had overturned while ascending high ground injuring three troopers causing a delay for repairs, and was also unable to keep up with Reno’s hurried march to Terry’s camp on June 19th. Reno in frustration temporarily cached it. No doubt, Reno must have encouraged Custer not to handicap his march up the Rosebud with the guns.
The additional troopers from the 2nd Calvary, which he also turned down, would certainly have made for a different outcome.
I am so glad you've posted again :)
Thanks, Hopefully it’s worth the wait
Cavalry needs unimpeded mobility and speed.
Gatling Guns are heavy and cumbersome..designed for defending a fixed position..
Gatling Guns would only have helped Custer if his plan was to go out on the plains and park his horses on high ground and wait for the Indians to come attack his position.
We already know that Custer had no intention of sitting on his backside waiting.
My ancestor Samuel Meddaugh was an NCO assigned to mountain artillery. His diary from the summer of 1876 confirms that Custer wanted to move fast and cover a lot of ground because the army did not know where the Indians were. Custer had left Terry's camp on June 12th and Terry learned of the battle on June 27th (via some Indian scouts) according to his diary.
Even if Custer had the Gatling guns, there is still the issue of getting them deployed to a defensible site. By the time they would have known that the battle had shifted from offense to defense (and that happened quickly), there simply wasn't enough time to set up a rally point to deploy the guns. You just don't know ahead of time which direction your retreating troops are going to be heading. And there is no way Custer was going to set up a defensive retreat point ahead of the battle. He simply didn't think he would ever need one.
In hindsight, the men of the 7th Cavalry who fought the action that day wouldn't have turned down the offer of the Gating guns. Thanks for the video 👍
The guns may have been useful in Reno's valley fight if he had gotten them into action quick enough. But I don't think Custer would have taken them with him on up the valley. He was looking to cut off the retreat of the Women and children hopefully stopping the fighting.
The British Army tried to use Gatling guns around the same time during the Zulu war and Nile campaign in Sudan, both in terrain better suited against largely infantry type enemies, albeit many, many times more numerous and fanatical than the Sioux. They largely failed, too mechanically unreliable and difficult to deploy. Gatling guns were purely a step towards machine guns and it took another 40 years before the usage of machine guns were properly employed.
Simple answer: No. They wouldn't have.
Complicated answer:
1. He didn't have enough of them. The 7th CAV had, at most, 6 guns available to it
2. The Army had not yet developed any kind of doctrine about company level support weaponry. They were treating Gatlings [and other rapid-fire experiments] like batteries of artillery.
3. The Gatlings of the era were prone to jams and fouling to both the barrels and the feed system.
4. Crazy Horse had enough warriors available to simply outflank a battery of Gatlings, kill their crews, and proceed with the attack.
So no, the most likely outcome would be that the Gatlings wouldn't have been a substantial help in overcoming the crippling deficits of Custer's own ego and stupidity.
Great video, I have been waiting for the spectacular video since you did the initial interview at Fort Laramie. I think you did great job with the narrative. Looking forward to other productions.
3 considerations to ponder
1. The Laramie museum had a statement posted on their gatling gun about its proclivity to jam due to the use of black powder. Is that not true?
2. The Terry column brought the guns but they constantly fell behind the rest of the column by a full day's march negating the chance of surprise as was achieved by Custer. Perhaps no battle would have occurred at all.
3. The Custer detachment was overwhelmed most likely after they expended thier ammo supply. Hauling guns of limited utility would have reduced ammunition supply for Reno Benteen which may have resulted in a worse disaster.
My conclusion, Custer made the correct decision
Another excellent video
Glad you enjoyed it!
The Nez Perce took the artillery pieces from the Army at the Big Hole battlefield. If they had known how to load and fire them the Army would have been doomed! Same would have happened at Little Bighorn.
Short answer: No. He wouldn't have had them with the advance column, he wouldn't have had time to set them up with how quickly he was hit. Gatling guns were also often prone to jamming, problems with field maintenance and difficulty setting up against enemies that preferred ambush hit and run tactics.
Have you ever been to that country in SE MT? Very rough badlands. Would have been HELL to get them there. They had enough trouble with the pack mules!
Considering the amount of firepower Gatling Guns can throw down..why wouldn't Custer,Benteen and Reno place those guns at the tip of their Cavalry Charges into the village?
I'll tell you
Too Heavy,Too slow,Worn out horses towing heavy carriages and ammo crates over undulating and cratered terrain..they couldn't get the guns unlimbered,positioned and firing on the village Quickly not to mention losing any element of surprise.
Possible..but unlikely Benteem being 'Tail end Charlie' could have been given 3-4 Gatlings,split his force into 3 groups and place on high ground above the village and a gun covering avenues of approach or in a position to rain bullets down on warriors attacking or retreating while engaged with Reno and Custer...time consuming,Considering Cavalry tactics that speed and maneuverability are paramount..think about it for a minute or 2..what i posted here is exactly why Custer refused weapons that are too heavy too cumbersome and are a nuisance to incorporate into Cavalry attacks
Would love to see you do a video on the Seminole Wars. Although it may not technically be western, I feel like it'd fit right into your niche of Native wars.
Not a bad idea
Wouldn’t have hurt. It couldn’t have turned out much worse. I have always said there was a reason that Custer graduated last in his class at West Point.
A lot of what that museum guy was saying just didn't really make sense
I’ve been to LBH 3 times and seeing the terrain, don’t think Gatling would have worked. Its’s rough country
Agreed. Last Stand Hill has been greatly altered since then to accommodate the monument and parking areas. It originally only had about 30 ft. Of open area at its peak. Calhoun Hill would have been better suited, but still had several large ravines leading up to it that would have had to be covered. And the crews would have been exposed to return fire, especially indirect fire from arrows fired from cover.
@ excellent
Why does my mind say'MG42' Every 5 seconds
There he is!! New Video!
The British used them at ulundi, the last battle of the zulu war.... It was a massacre, but, the brits fought in battle squares..... Idk, what do you think.... Perhaps from the high ground....?
I would imagine that the men manning the Gatling Guns would have attracted a lot of attention and they would have been pretty easily flanked. They would probably have been some of the first casualties. I'd think one advantage might be that the attention of some of the Indians would have temporarily drawn part of the attack away from Custer. There might also have been a fear factor. All things considered, the advantage might not have been the rate of fire, but a temporary reduction in the force attacking Custer, more time to reload, and perhaps a little more time to maneuver. In the end the result would have been the same but the field might have been a bit more spread out.
Good point, well made. 🙂
The 7th had no wagons during their last days... The pack mules hideously slowed down the column and badly stretched it out. Congress refused to pay for quality horses to draw the Gatlings... The Army was forced to purchase animals that had already been rejected as Cavalry remounts. *Maybe* Reno/Benteen on the hill where they were under siege *might* have gotten some decent service out of a Gatling... *if* it ever could have made it there.
.
As to Custer's five troops...no more than one died specifically at Last Stand Hill... the rest had been deployed over too much terrain in anticipation of being an attacking force. *If* a Gatling could have made it to Last Stand Hill...most likely the four man crew would have been killed before they could have ever deployed it. This wasn't an MG-42 that could have been fired from the prone position. The troopers there under fire from all sides. Many of the Sioux and Cheyenne rode up to within 50 meters and then dismounted... (relatively small number of dead Indian ponies on the site confirms that large number of warriors dismounted and firing from cuts in the terrain.)
.
In 1893 Rhodesian police and militia deployed Maxim guns against the Matabele...(a Zulu offshoot) to great effect... But the Europeans were laagered up in prepared positions...and the Matabele impis advanced in thousands...shoulder to shoulder... They attempted to overrun the Rhodesians and thousands were killed. But the Sioux and the Cheyenne had no such notion... a large percentage fought from behind cover...rifles and bows...and only closed for the kill in the last moments... Other than a couple of battles where the Matabele attacked in packed masses against prepared defenses... the Maxim guns were not of much use... -YP-
Interesting & awesome information,1 maybe 2 might have been helpful or changed the outcome,but as stated they're heavy & not suited for ruff country,let's not forget 1 thing,Custers arrogance & attitude,he said many times he could ride through the Sioux Nation with just a unit of men,as recorded he didn't listen to his scouts about the actual size of the encampment & how many warriors there was,but a great video & great therory
Why did they send the Gatlings along on Reno's scout? Did nothing but break down more horses.
What would have saved Custer was if he stopped, got off his horse and walked down to the encampment and TALKED to the leaders.
Well, we can go on commenting on something that’s very difficult (and controversial) to really know if it would’ve made a difference, the British used Gatling guns on some of their battles with the Zulus in South Africa and the weapons made a huge difference. So who knows what would’ve happened?
Wasn't he offered another regiment of Cavalry as well as the Gatlings? If so, I believe the additional troops, coupled with the Gatling Guns could have made a difference.
It wasn't another regiment, it was just 2 or 3 companies, barely another 100 men. With the number of hostile warriors present, Custer would have needed way more than that to accomplish the victory he was looking. He was operating on bad strategic intelligence and would not reconsider even though all his scouts told him that there were way more Indians than he believed.
No. Too slow and unwieldy for cavalry. Custer turned them down as speed was important.
Interesting. Thx
Nice presentation on an age old question. What if ❓. oops nevermind too late. 👍
Wait, the Gatling guns had no traverse and elevation mechanism? How so? Such a gun without adjustment possibilities sounds like a really stupid concept. What do I miss?
It makes a little more sense if you think of it like an artillery piece (like they would have back then) and not a machine gun like we have today
If he would have had regular artillary it would have been different or a Sherman tank. Every disaster people want to blame someone. Bad intell was equal as was the shortage of horses mentioned. More were lost on the Indianapolis and fewer worry over it like Little Big Horn
No argument with goldielocks, to slow and cumberson.
The British had rockets and artillery at Islandwana and it didn’t save them because they were too spread out, Custer made the same mistake 4 years earlier
The Gatling guns would of slowed Custer up, so then Terry would of been closer plus the Indians would of moved closer to Terry.
Custer’s ego got his men killed rather than the lack of Gatling guns. Two large losses of innocent lives make me hate two men in history: Custer and Capt James Mason of the SS Sultana. Ego and greed.
The government policy was to convince the Indians to return to the reservations. Custer wasn't trying to kill as many Indians as he could. Custer's objective was to surprise the Indian village and then destroy or capture as many horses as possible. No horses, no raiding, the reason the Indians left the reservations. The Army preferred the 3" ordinance rifled cannon because it gave more bang for the buck. It wasn't needed here. The LBH was truly a scandal that can be laid at the feet of Grant.
The decision not to take guns was actually a wise decision. They would not have helped much anyway. I'm glad they didn't have them because more tribesmen may have been injured. Colonel Custer took many with him in his string of bad decisions. He should not have been there. But it will always serve as a good Operation to study.
Great video Travis. If Custer did manage to get the Gatlin gun to the battle site, I would guess with the massive number of Indians charging the 7th causing such mass disarray amongst the men that the gun would have had little effect since the gun base did not swivel. That said, Custer miss calculated the size of his enemy and was ill prepared. Plus his big ego did not help. Good Job.
Thanks Joe! I was also surprised about the gun mounts not being able to swivel
Joe, "big ego",,get educated buddy.
Custer was an idiot
What if he had 10 , .50 cal machine guns? What is the point, it never happened...
Custer and his own men went out by their own hand before the indiands could iven get to them
NO they would have done nothing. To big, to bulky and way to difficult to aim at fast moving targets. To think they would have made a difference in a large gorilla fighting force is stupid illogical thinking.
Custer could have held the Gat at his hip and fired it like Rambo. Crazy Horse would be Crazy Dead.
Duh what if, what if, what if Custer had an F-16 and F15. stupid asessment.