Presbyterian Denominations Tier List
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2023
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So finally someone who thinks of me. I too, being raised Presbyterian UPC and now PCUSA, confirmed in the denomination have found it appalling to say the least what is happening in our denomination, and what others consider Presbyterian. First of all, listen well to this guy!! My church as a child had strong ties with the mother Church of Presbyterians in Scotland which is the Church of Scotland and particular St Giles Cathedral. All these off shoots of modern day Presbyterians are not Presbyterian in my mind, I do not give a rats you know what if they say they are. They are nothing but, as he explained here modified and Reformed Baptists. Presbyterians are NOT Baptist, not close to Baptist. We differ on government, our understanding of Salvation, there belief in their ordinances which we call Sacraments are totally different. We DO NOT BELIEVE its just a memorial!! We actually believe in pneumatic Real Presence which Anglicans and Methodist share as well. We baptize infants and do not believe that is just some kind of act, and you need to do it as a consenting adult for salvation. So I have been Presbyterian most all my life, christened as a baby Methodist and then later Presbyterian and confirmed in that denomination. Look at who the PCUSA is in full communion with, and you will not notice any of these offshoot Presbyterians. I do not give a rip if they call themselves that. Their core beliefs, worship and idea of Confessions of the church are not what we hold. I am all for church tradition. We have to remember, that John Knox- The Church of Scotland ( Presbyterian) broke from the Roman Catholic, we are not an offshoot of Anglicans like Methodist, we are actually siblings with Anglicans and Lutherans and the such. I am all for tradition and voices like this. Perhaps people, especially in these free flowing Presbyterian denominations need to see and understand what real Presbyterianism is about!! I am going to leave a link for St Giles Cathedral where you can watch services. Also a link on our beliefs. I have never been comfortable in these modern day PCA or OPC churches, in my mind, they are not truly real Presbyterians. BTW we have only named a few, there are many break offs. Now also the Cumberland which was not mentioned is also a great Presbyterian denomination, and many are traditional. These other ones , in my opinion should take out the name Presbyterian and go by something else, they truly do NOT follow our tradition. Some do not even have a Confession of Sin in the service, even before Communion some do not recite the Lords Prayer, Apostles or Nicene Creed, Do not wear Clerical robes/vestments do not have an Order of Worship, and the list goes on. Those in my mind are NOT TRUE and TRADITIONAL PRESBYTERIANS. This guy, said it and articulated it well. We need to not stray away from tradition.
www.stgilescathedral.org.uk/9723-930
www.presbyterianmission.org/what-we-believe/
Thank you for sharing. I am a cumberland presbyterian in Tennessee. I have been trying to dive to my denomination in the last year or so. I feel like most of the traditional things you mentioned are along what we believe. We've stood strong against lgbtq stuff. I have also had women pastors. We are very involved in outreach outside of the country. I enjoyed your video.
Professional yapper 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Are you really trying to say that the established church of Scotland is the true Presbyterian church? So, I'm guessing that you hate the Free church and the Free Presbyterians then, even though the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland is the true heir of the title Church of Scotland. Why do you act like the reciting of the apostle's creed or Nicene creed are historic practices? You can read the original directory of public worship for yourself and see that these practices find no history in the church until it began becoming liberal. Do you also believe that we should have musical instruments in worship, and uninspired hymns? If so, you are the one that is out of place in the historic Presbyterian church, not us who still hold to these things.
@@hilohilo9539 Hi there, so I am not here to argue with you or create chaos. I am just telling you what history tells. I am quite learned on this topic, in my 60s, so I really truly do not need some talk as if I do not know what I am talking about. First if are reformed and followed John Calvin, you wll realize that his liturgy on the Lords day that included Holy Communion always recited the Apostles Creed, if you do not believe it read u p on it. Also, I want to answer your questions. Regarding the Church of Scotland as the true mother church of Presbyterians, yes that is what I have said. It was started by John Knox. I do not give a peep about churches that broke away, because many do when they do not agree with something, or they think its not scriptural enough. I am no Puritan, I am not a Presbyterian that is Puritan nor broke away from the mainline churches. So you cannot convince me. I am a true Presbyterian that is confessional. And the true mainline Presbyterian Churches including the Church of Scotland are a confessional church. Oh here you go for John Calvins Order of Worship back in the 1500's. Calvin’s Order of Worship for Communion
Call to worship
Confession of Sin / Absolution
The Ten Commandments (sung) (In Calvin’s preparation of a metrical tune)
Psalm (sung)
The Word Read from the OT or NT
Prayer for Illumination
Preaching of the Word Sermon
Prayer of Intercession
Apostle’s Creed (sung) (In Calvin’s preparation of a metrical tune)
The Lord’s Supper
Prayer of Thanksgiving
Psalm (sung) or Song of Simeon (sung)
Blessing
@@josee18 The binding directory of public worship in the Presbyterian church is the Westminster Directory of Public Worship. Ministers are to order the worship of God after the pattern set down by that directory, and that is the way worship was directed in the church from the time of the writing of the directory up until the mid 1800's when certain churches began abandoning it in favor of new innovations such as hymns, musical instruments, and the reciting of creeds on the Lord's Day (though you may not believe it to be an innovation, as Calvin did do this, the Presbyterians in Scotland did not). Presbyterian worship was noticeably less liturgical long ago than it is today in most of the churches of the state Presbyterian Church (which St. Giles is a part of). On the issue of the reciting of creeds before communion, the Westminster Directory makes no mention of a recitation of the Apostles creed before the supper. You may not like the directory, but it is still the directory which all Scottish Presbyterian churches are to use. Also (now this is just a question), if you think that the state church has always been the right church in Scotland, then was it still the proper Presbyterian church during the years that it was forced into being Anglican in the 1600's, and that the national covenant and covenanting movement was wrong?
Just an idea, a video summarizing historic Christian heresies could be very interesting
^^^^
Put them on a tier list!
@@1988cascoArianism - S tier
Hundred percent 🙌
Or arianism spin off: Jeovah Witness
Zoomer, you might not see this but your videos honestly helped me find God. 26 years old surely haven't been pious, but I know through Him, all will be forgiven. Thank you for inspiring me.
God bless you! So happy to hear that. SOLI DEO GLORIA
@@redeemedzoomer6053 God bless you also. Christianity is such a motivation and driving force for structure and motivation to do better in your life, at least for me, and I feel like that's an issue people don't really talk about much. When you strive to be good in God's eyes, you also do better in your fellow human's eyes.
I implore to you make a video on:
-how to pray(to whom? When?)
-how to repent(what for? Penance?)(What if I forgot something?)
-etc.
Essentially: HOW TO be a Christian
sure, good idea
@@redeemedzoomer6053 THANK YOU! SOLI DEO GLORIA!
@@redeemedzoomer6053 also one on how to worship
@@nickjames6813 bro is jumping for joy lol
@@redeemedzoomer6053make your minecraft server for bedrock please.
I would consider any church which ordains women to be progressive. Being conservative on a handful of other issues doesn’t change that.
In our culture, where even most Republicans (like Trump) are for gay marriage, being opposed to LGBTQ automatically makes you conservative
@@redeemedzoomer6053could you talk about LCMS? Do you know about them and their history?
@@redeemedzoomer6053I think that is to confuse political conservatism with theological conservatism
Curious about your view of the ARPC. I am PCA, but I have richly enjoyed an ARPC while traveling.
I was a degenerate, atheistic twenty-three year old alcoholic in a jail cell for a DUI when a young, quietly charismatic OPC pastor came and administered a service to the five or six of us who joined. It was an amazing experience. He left me with "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace" by Michael Horton, along with an ESV Bible, with reading suggestions. Later, I reached out, and he brought me the Westminster.
Upon release, I met with the pastor in person and we discussed the goings on of Christ and culture. I even went to his church, Providence OPC in Southfield, MI. The tenor was very serious, and the style, unadorned.
I wasn't ready for it because my intentions were not set right. That day is set apart. I was still too worldly to get it. It wasn't about me.
Even so, I've never forgotten that experience and the generosity of the pastor. I've always felt like God was doing a work through him to call unto me.
I'm glad to hear your story. I feel like RZ gives OPC a bad name over often materialistic/cultural issues.
The historical Baptist (not anabaptist) view was spiritual presence. I believe what happened was that a lot of low church views infected the baptists churches (and many other churches as well) after the 2nd great awakening which promoted restoration instead of reformation. The Baptist movement already had some restorationist attitudes, however, at one point, many Baptists were high church and believed in real presence.
My area still has its share of Baptist churches that, by architecture alone at least, seem to be fairly traditional.
But most Baptist churches here are low-church, unfortunately.
I grew up Baptist and never knew this until Dr. Ortlund mentioned it, which totally stunned me. I'd be curious to read in depth why that change. I also read that early Baptists used wine instead of grape juice, which makes sense with it being before the Temperance Movement.
@@wesmorgan7729 Grape juice is also a very recent invention that didn’t exist for the first 200 years of Baptist history.
@@lesinge8868 now when I mean high-church, I’m not referring to the liturgy of the Lutherans or Anglicans. Baptist worship was still simplistic, but no smoke machines or Zwinglism.
@@mmtoss6530 Oh alright. That makes sense.
I'm so happy you included us in the RPCNA! I actually visited that pretty white church in the bottom right corner last month. I promise that we're not cold, but actually quite warm and welcoming. No "frozen chosen" here!
Would love a video about sexual sin, it’s an underdiscussed topic in my opinion since it’s so incredibly prevalent, but you don’t hear many people actually discussing it and how to combat it on an interpersonal and societal level. I am in middle school, and it is incredibly surprising how much sex is discussed, and how many people dress and act immodestly. (I mean it kinda makes sense my school district is really leftist, but still)
I think it's mostly to do with entering puberty, which is when kids have sexual thoughts. Middle school and high school can be difficult times with lust so strong my man.
A better approach these days might be to talk about the constructive approach Christianity has to sex. There are enough people who have suffered from infidelity / divorce / broken families / abuse by unrelated adults in the home, and it's becoming increasingly obvious what a problem demographic collapse is likely to be, that people are interested in hearing what kind of positive structure the Law can give to your life.
Now, it's undoubtedly the highest blessing to be redeemed from the status of lawbreaker. We should still consider, though, how we live in this world, and the psalmists praised the Law for a reason.
If you’re still looking for resources I recommend the channel Men on Mission. Convicting and practical takes that are arguably applicable to both men and women for a variety of sin struggles
Ranking other traditions of denominations would be interesting (ie Lutheranism, Anglicanism, etc).
I think there's parallel Anglican bodies which is interesting
I believe the channel Scholastic Lutherans have done a denomination ranking already.
Well the tanking is simplistic if you are talking about the mainline denominations as a whole. They would be Episcopal or Anglican- Lutheran- Mainline Presbyterian such as PCUSA/ Mainline Reformed- Methodist-UCC-Baptist- Nazarene/ Holiness- Pentecostal/ Holiness
Thanks so much, brother, for another excellent video. You are building up treasures in heaven, brother!
As someone that left the Presbyterian Denomination, I'm so glad you're making this. Really appreciate all the work you're doing for Christianity.
Which denomination did you join?
We all want to know!
I completely agree with your views on PCUSA and PCA. Sadly, there are no moderate PCUSA churches near me and there are no ECO churches, only PCA and Cumberland. I am going to visit a PCA church this upcoming Sunday. God bless!
depends on where you are, try URCNA or RCUSA
@@danoctavian8184 Thanks, I’ll look into it.
@@cormundum_o Are you in Birmingham Alabama?
@@johnking9161 Nope 😂😂
@@cormundum_o well good luck finding a Good Church! I also would suggest the Reformed Episcopal Church in the ACNA.
Bro destroyed the theology of half of the modern Christians in the first 25 seconds
I question how much a person reads the bible if they don't believe they need church and only need the bible. Reading the bible would explain why you need church.
@Joelcjr That’s not good, but it’s better than a hand waving revivalist thing with drums and electric guitars … that’s practically another religion.
@Joelcjr It’s these new “Bible” churches with the creepy contemporary worship styles, though. Mainline is way better than that.
@@fighterofthenightman1057 I'm not so sure that the mainline is any better than them. Many of them sing hymns with instrumental accompaniment, which is no more following of scripture than the contemporary worship. Scripture commands the singing of Psalms, not hymns written by man.
"Is any merry? let him sing psalms," (James 5:13).
“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;” (Ephesians 5:19). These same Greek words for psalms, hymns and spiritual songs appear in the titles of the psalms in the Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.
While I agree in theory, but so many modern churches, at least the ones I have been finding around me, have a lot of heresy. Is it better to read your bible and learn on your own, or go to a church that preaches against many of the laws and traditions that make Christianity what it is?
This is very informative. Please do tier lists for the other major denominations as well!
In Europe all protestants have churches and cathedrals. My school is located on Lutheran street. And the street is named so because it starts with Lutheran church.
“…people converting to Catholicism and Orthodoxy on mass” no pun intended lol.
OPC was the church God used to draw me to him and reformed theology(in the deep South of all places). You need to visit an OPC church before you pass judgment, imo. They were more warm and welcoming than the PCA church I attend now, and do far more community outreach as well. The OPC churches around us join up with PCA churches to do conferences. I may be biased bc I loved my OPC family, but I think your broad swaths can be damaging, especially if you have no personal experience with them.
Not only that, Westminster Theological Seminary has had a big impact on the Christianity as a whole. Specifically in some of the theologians and pastors it has produced, not to mention its involvement in the CCEF.
He scoffs at any bible believing church if they are within a five mile radius of a waffle house
love to hear you talking about ECO!
A pastor who does not believe Jesus literally rose from the dead is a false shepherd, a wolf.
of course, that's why I'm trying to stop them
26:10 They have: the foundation fo Westminster theological seminary in Philadelphia for which many reformed denominations are thankful for
Lol you’re the best unbiased person for these kinds of videos. I laughed at the beginning
EPC-ECO merge. ARP, OPC, and PCA merge. ECO becomes complimentarian and merges with PCA. PCA now has better view of sacraments. PCUSA becomes conservative and merges with the PCA. I like PCA over PCUSA, so the PCA brand would take over.
So everything is PCA?
@@arthurrytuz4855 the name and logo would be PCA, the head would be and new structure of all the different denominations
I love this, except I think PCUSA logo is better than PCA.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Dude, even here in Brazil people talk badly about Pcusa. I think it would be wiser to abandone the name and the logo, just accepting the pca identity
@@redeemedzoomer6053 that’s where we disagree 😂
Minus the F-tier row, this tier list is really just a ranking of which denominations on average have the church buildings that Redeemed Zoomer likes the most.
what can I say? Buildings are an outward sign of cultural connections
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Beauty is one of the three transcendentals. It is a route to God.
RZ wanted to kiss the screen when he read about their theology?
He's about to go Orthodox for sure.
Or even better, Eastern Catholic.
All performance based and is completely undone when an expletive is used to describe his reaction , F n kiss the screen , is a low expression and does not fit at all , That's why I know , man needs to let God clean up His Called out ones , and HE IS DOING JUST THAT , , ❤
ARP guy here, haven’t started the video yet but It’s crazy to see our tiny denomination on YT. I’m interested to see what you have to say, will edit with my response.
Edit: first I want to say, great video. I’m a Zoomer myself and this is one of the first 30 minute videos I’ve watched all the way through in a while. I agree with the B tier rating, I would say A tier but I think a good point is made that ECO has more traditional churches. For example, my church which I’ve grown up in is just in the building of an Lutheran Church that was probably built in the 70s or 80s, though our congregation has been around for a whopping 185 ish years. Another thing is that there is one difference between the ARP and the PCA, a minor one but it’s there. In the ARP we ALLOW women to be deacons, although this is at the discretion of each individual church congregation. This is because it’s a servant role and not a leadership role. But overall, a good analysis and I will definitely be checking out the Scot’s Confession.
Sir you've unfairly characterized the OPC. We don't have a huge impact because we're a small denomination, but we punch our weight as far as evangelism and outward ministry is concerned. Please visit an OPC church some time.
Amen brother, In fact I’d argue that the OPC punches well above its weight in terms of cultural influence and evangelism considering its size!
As someone who grew up in an EPC, and still being a member of one, i actually fully agree with your ranking. Each church can be wildly different, and that brings it down a little to me.
29:00 😂😂😂 I wasn’t even going to comment about your exclusion of the CREC but now I feel obligated to say something
I will be checking out a biblical PCUSA church in my town this upcoming Sunday. I would have never considered the PCUSA until I learned about you and your movement.
There's a church near me i am thinking about scouting for the reconquista, what ahould i be looking for, and what should i be doing?
RZ, Reformed Baptist (aka “Bless your heart” Calvinist) here. Regarding sacraments (which we call ordinances), where would you start to better understand them as means of grace instead of just symbols? I came from Trinitarian Pentecostalism to Reformed Charismatic to Reformed Baptist unsure about continuation of gifts, so I’m open to hearing other views.
I looked up the local PCUSA church here in Jefferson City, and it’s pastored by a woman and it seems they are pretty woke. Based on their worship guide, they still seem to be traditional in their worship, though. I haven’t driven by to see if a pride flag is hanging out front yet.
Would be interested to see you rank the denominations of other Christian traditions as an outsider.
God bless your struggle for the PCUSA!
I love your views on winning back the denominations. I'm reading a book talking about the church under communsim and I see a lot of similarities. I love this quote in it.
We stay because if we go, who will be left to pray? - Brother Andrew, God's Smuggler.
Reformed presby here. Keep it up man. I’m in the PC USA too let’s work on it. I’m not giving up
1st off, thank you. I love your videos and love how humble you are. I loved your ending, that many will have different priorities-that's really what it comed down to. Stick to those God given convictions.
That said, I wanted to say a few things as an OPC member. You're probably busy and have a life outside of RUclips, so take your time in replying.
It's the people, not the building, that makes the difference. I asked in a previous comment, what do you say to what Jesus said about worshipping in Spirit and truth being more important than the place? I agree that, sadly, we in the OPC appear to be lacking in influencing culture. However, have you read Ortland's book Ordinary? It helped me a lot in realizing how the "ordinary" acts of the church are what really transform us and culture.
Thankfully, I've been in the same church my whole life and whenever someone visits they say the complete opposite of what you said-we're very friendly and welcoming. Maybe my church is the odd one out, but not from what I've seen. My dad is a pastor, so my family gets to visit other churches when he is on vacation. They've always been extremely welcoming to us.
While attending a university far away from home without many good churches around, I'm more convinced of how good and important good doctrine is. It does lead to impact, if people follow through. I have seen this happen in my home church and know it can happen. Sadlly, we often do not follow through. I agree that good theology without good works is useless! James said that. However, that doesn't mean we should compromise the theology-it means we should follow what we know to be true. I think that is the option for most if not all these-start following what you say.
Hope this makes sense. Love and prayers brother!
Good thoughts! I don't think we can it's either or, either people or buildings. God's Kingdom transforms every area of life, social, doctrinal, and yes, aesthetical
us zoomers in the discord definitely contributed to that southern voice😂
Before becoming an Anglican I was a Presbyterian for thirty years -- born and baptized in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.), the old Southern Presbyterian Church, amalgamated into the PCUSA in 1983, departed for the ARP in 1993.
Your point about the strength of the Scots Confession is valid, but in the PCUSA you also have to accept the Confession of 1967 in the Book of Confessions. While I share your convictions about women clergy, the chances for a candidate in the PCUSA who holds those convictions are practically nonexistent. If Walter Wynn Kenyon was still alive I'd encourage you to ask him about his experiences.
Finally, as a Southerner, I find your attitude toward those from our region dismissive, to include the sarcastic accent.
Would you consider making a video discussing the protagonists of New Atheism (Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, etc)? I've listened to many of these men at length, and the more I do the more I'm disappointed anyone finds them convincing, even if they are extremely well-spoken and intelligent.
I think there should be a funny game sort of geoguesser-esque that has 3d models of buildings and you have to tell if they are office buildings or non-denom. churches with the crosses photoshopped out. (The names would also be photoshopped out)
Would LOVE this for the traditional Protestant groups like Lutherans, Methodists, etc.
Excuse me, who do you think he was talking about here. Traditional mainline Protestants are the following Anglicans/ Episcopalian, Lutherans, Reformed/ Presbyterians/ Methodists, Congregationalists, American Baptists. - So you were not paying attention to his coverage on Presbyterians who are traditional Protestants. OMG. Lol
@@josee18I think he meant the other mainline Protestant churches.
“The PCA is my favorite baptist denomination” had me rolling.
I go to school in the Bible Belt, so the church choices are like Catholic, Baptist, Baptist, Baptist, Non-denom (but really baptist), and PCA.
Now, I actually don’t go to any of those. I go to the new baptist church plant, because that’s what the city needed: another baptist church.
It’s tough to have PCUSA outside D tier. The state of the denomination is very rough. I understand and respect the utility of the institution. I suggest The Lord’s Service by Jeff Meyers on the topic of worship. CREC churches model a lot of worship off that book but the author is PCA. Youll be pleasantly surprised and challenged I think.
Please do Lutherans next 🙏🏼 ❤😅
Non-denoms be like: there was early church then 1900 years later Jim Bob's Nondenom church finally got it exactly right!
ECO be like: there was the early church then 1900 years later we finally got women's ordination right!
Just started and we already introduced quantum mechanics into a teirlist
each PCUSA church is simultaneously based and cringe until you go inside it
I know you know a lot more about Presbyterians, but it’d be awesome if you did this for all the denominations like Lutherans, Methodists, Congregationalists, etc. I am a Mainliner, but hearing you roast the ones that have gone WAY off the rails like the UCC would be great. 😂
0:28 that plus I see denominations as just general ways of telling someone *most* of the overarching beliefs you hold. Yeah it can get confusing but overall I think it is a useful tool. Because not everyone agrees on these secondary issues.
The southern accent kills me every time (as someone who is from Texas) 🤣
I belong to a PCA church in NJ & am so glad it is absolutely nothing like you said they tend to be. I didn’t even know these trends exist in the PCA because we hold the historical Presbyterian view of both sacraments and a high view of worship with traditional liturgy. I know you said there are exceptions, but just commenting to confirm this since it is possible a PCA church may be the only solid Presbyterian church near you.
Attending a PCA church this Sunday... from what I heard after emailing the pastor, I am optimist about their theology, worship, and values!
Hoping for a good experience.
@@KoiDotJpeg Since I am 2 weeks late to reply, let me ask - how did your visit at the local PCA church go?!
@Bythegraceofgod1646 I actually ended up going for a Lutheran Church as I felt it matched my theology better. What drew me in is actually both the liturgy (they seemed more traditional and beautiful) as well as the outer and inner beauty of the Church.
I've been attending this Lutheran Church for 3 weeks now and absolutely loving it. The pastor does an amazing job, the hymns are beautiful and lovely, the sermons are beautiful, informative, and beneficial.
I found my home in the Lutheran Church :) Also I found out Presbyterian Church's don't quite align with my views/theology as much as I'd like, Lutheranism is closer
@@KoiDotJpeg Praise God! Happy to hear it! I’m glad you found a local body of Christ matching your personal convictions & conscience. That is what matters. May God bless the ties that bind you in love to His church. 🙏
I think what he said is actul and factual. There are a handful of PCA churches that are liturgical and traditional, but as a whole the PCA has allowed a type of Baptist type of low church and almost " Born Again" feel in their churches. Research the internet. Perhaps you could be a voice to getting the PCA back on track. When they hear parishoners saying enough is enough..than they start making changes. If not, you will truly be no longer a reformed denomination, it will start to feel more and more baptist.
Please do a Tier list of all the Major US denominations 🙏 Thanks
Can you do a video on your thoughts about the books of Enoch?
I forgot that there’s a distinction between Dutch Reformed and Presbyterian (I’m Dutch so I only know the former) and I was looking for the Dutch Reformed denoms to appear in the tier list but of course that would fall outside the scope of this video 🤦♂️
I take it you live in Canada or the Midwest then? :) I used to live there and would also love to see how all the Dutch Reformed churches fit.
I'm from Zambia and I'm a reformed Baptist. I just started watching your videos on Sunday and I love them. I hope you keep it up. I disagree on a lot of what you've said but perhaps I need some clarification. I hope this comment isn't premature because I haven't watched the whole video yet but I can always come back and edit.
Do you believe that baptism saves? If so how do you confirm that with scripture?
What do you think the role of the sacraments is for believers and non-believers? Could you add scripture to your view?
I don't see how you'd rank your denomination higher than PCA because they're by far more sound.
Oh this is interesting. Thanks.
Ay thanks for checking out my channel! Love your stuff, and praying for the CRCNA
I am Calvary Chapel attendee. However, so many things said about looking for something different is so spot on. Going through all of it, now. The Eucharist is the biggest thing for me at the moment.
Do Pentecostals next!
I'm not Christian but I watch your videos because I am attracted to autistic nuance in hobbies and vocations.
was that english
@@baldingrecedingbowlcutmull2313 yes
@@pigbimpin4151 wrong
gee squidward, maybe santa will bring me a dictionary so I can understand what you just said!
Thanks!
Can you do this with all the Christian denominations?
Would love to see your take on other denominations! Even if it’s just your surface level knowledge
As a moderate ELCA Lutheran, I’d have a similar take on my denomination (S and F), but I’d include LCMS as S Tier in its own very different way. Difficult to judge the others, but WELS is C.
I'm part of a Baptist church that has a pretty low view of the sacraments (obviously). I hold a pretty high view of them. Based on your comment at 13:30, would you say that I am not actually receiving the body and blood of Christ since my church doesn't hold to that view?
If your church is properly administering the sacraments with the word of God then you are objectively receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, no matter what you or your pastor believes. The power is in God’s word, not what we believe or think individually.
Would you consider attending some Presbyterian services? When you partake in the Visible Gospel and you view others around you partaking as well, and when you witness a baptism that is rightly understood as a sign and seal of God’s covenanting love upon His people, I think it’ll deeply move you.
The person above me is correct; the sacraments are objective.
But trust me, as someone that’s been where you are, your worship will be so much more pure and beautiful when you partake in the sacraments with people in the church that view the sacraments rightly. It DOES matter and it does make a difference. Just something to think about. As someone who has been there.
I am surprised by how much you bring up Church architecture. My degree is in architecture, so I love it and I love good Church architecture that puts the worshipper in a proper emotional state (or at least tries to). That being said, I think there is a line of to be crossed when the building is so large, ornate, expensive that the attention doesn't go to Christ, it goes to the Church and how impressive it is. What kind of witness does it show the watching world that we empty our wallets to keep a building looking exceptional while people starve? Obviously there's balance, I think new churches should have some regard for design, but not so much that its distracting or takes my affections away from Jesus. Just a thought.
Churches should represent a small piece of the Lord's Kingdom on Earth. Investing our material wealth into making these buildings beautiful is an aspect of showing our care for that cause. Remember that the most important thing you could ever do for someone is bring him to Christ. You do comparatively nothing by feeding a man if you do not preach to him the gospel so that he may be saved, and having a representation of God's Kingdom on Earth can get people's attention and make them think about the important questions in life.
@@shanezarcone5401 I see what you are saying, and I don't completely disagree, I think there should be design and beauty in a church. But, I have never once heard someone come to Christ and part of their testimony is being struck by the architecture of the Church. I mean, it's quite the opposite with the house church movement in China that's exploding right now. This seems like a wealthy western idea. I personally think the watching world would be more impressed with Christ and the gospel if they see us prioritize money to the sick, poor, outcast rather than architecture. Again, not saying our churches should look awful, but I think it should be tastefully non distracting.
@@commanderchair This is a great point. Church architecture is a nice bonus, but Paul doesn't say that the Gospel is transferred through the attractiveness of a building, but instead he says "How will they believe in Jesus whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" in Romans 10:14.
From Luther's 95 Theses:
50: Christians are to be taught that if the pope knew the exactions of the indulgence preachers, he would rather that the basilica of St. Peter were burned to ashes than built up with the skin, flesh, and bones of his sheep.
51: Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
What's the program you used to record your screen and face like that?
So why do Presberytian (sorry for the spelling) baptize babies? Is it to save their soul if they die young (ie before 5)?
Here in Brazil, the bigger presbyterian denomination IPB (Igreja Presbiteriana do Brasil/ Brazil Presbyterian Church) was founded by PCUSA missionaries but the IPB cut the connection when the PCUSA started ordering women as pastors and etc. The IPB still conservative, but every year some synod tries something like order women as deacon (I don't know the correct word for Diácono/Diaconós) but it never passes.
About the traditionalism, like liturgy, pastores wearing robes, etc, it will depends on the region. For example, in the northeast region, it is kind hard to find a church following the liturgical calendar (advent, pentecost...) because of the heavy presence of the Catholic Roman Church so the protestant churches avoid to be like the roman church in many ways (much of them I disagree), including, when I started wearing a cross pendant some people told me that I looked like an Catholic Roman.
Not all usa presbys branched from/to PCUSA. Eg, Associate Reformed Presby has somehow managed to not split or join since arrival in North Am.
I am somewhat surprised the Cumberland Presbyterian Church was not on the list.
The Would be somewhere between a PCUSA and PCA
Shlohm alekhem! Do you know of any Presbyterian denominations or fellowships that believe in both, female ordination, & that it is possible to lose your salvation? Thank you.
The ECO congregation here in San Antonio has a beautiful 100 year-old gothic revival church and hosts 2 traditional + 2 modern services.
Nondenominational here! My church specifically is lead by four elders who all have equal say in decisions and are held accountable by our members. We're currently looking for a church building and we're underneath Acts 29, if you'd want to do a video on facts vs myths on evangelical/nondenominational Christians, (most of us see the terms as interchangeable,) that might help people understand the social confusion and where we went wrong.
Hello mate, would you be able to do a video on how to develop a closer relationship to the Lord? I read the bible and pray each day but haven’t felt that click of a relationship yet, and I want to have that but am unsure how I can develop it better.
Do you go to church every week and receive Holy Communion regularly? If you don't do that, you can't expect to have much of a relationship
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I’ve been absent due to work for past few weeks. I am unsure of what exactly Holy Communion is, is this the body and blood of Christ? My nearby church is a baptist so it is not too often that we do it.
@@jackmorris9045 Well that explains exactly why you feel distant from God. Praying and reading the Bible is good, but it's not a substitute for going to Church. The church is the body of Christ, my friend. To have a real relationship with Christ, it can't just be in your head. You need to participate in church in receive Christ in Holy Communion (so I suggest you leave the Baptist church and go to something Presbyterian or Lutheran)
What’s your opinion on Wesleyans?
As a member of a PCA church, what resources would you all point me to to learn more about sacramentalism?
The book "The Mystical Presence" by John Williamson Nevin!
What about Cumberland Presbyterian Church, I`m not american, but I`ve seen they are one of presbyterian churches with most congregations
Another point of interest in the OPC is that they hold to 3 offices (they seperate the office of preacher and ruling elder) instead of 2 like most other reformed groups.
Zoomer, my Church recently gave us a free book "This is My Body" by Bishop Robert Barron........can you opine on this book please? thank you in advance.
This Is My Body
I know you didn’t ask me but I assume you are Catholic because that book is by a Catholic Bishop and explains the Catholic view of the breaking of the bread. In my opinion you should read it (because I think the Catholic view is true)
What are your thoughts on the RCA?
Church tour of your church!
Obligatory comment from an OPC member. After watching your whole video and listening to your reasoning I have to say I think your ranking of the OPC in D tier is…
Pretty fair. I think it deserves a C tier, but maybe that’s because I go to a larger OPC church that is pushing hard to have an impact in our community, but there are many OPC churches that are “theology in a white box.”
If I’m not mistaken there have been some attempts to merge with other denominations over the years. The problem is that when you look at the scale of something as big as a whole denomination with as many rules as presbyterians have…it turn out splitting is a lot easier than unifying. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, I’m just saying on an individual level it feels like there’s a lot less that can be done
thank you, brother, I appreciate the thoughtful response
Question: Why does the Presbytarian church near my home give me the silent treatment when I write to them? They pick up my messages but give me the silent treatment each time. They advertized they are doing a prayer walk in this neighborhood, at the same time they minister silent treatment desth to me who is one of their church neighbor. Please help me understand this church denomination practice and what is the real reason for this so called prayer walk in our neighborhood. What kind of spirit is this and for what reason are they after? Thank you.
We would need much more background information on this beyond 'I write to them and they don't reply'. Because an immediate possible answer would be 'they're bad at admin and disorganised', and we'd really have no way of knowing without more info.
I'm RPCNA and I didn't think he was going to mention it.
Can he do a denominational videos
Like
Lutheran
Baptist
Methodist
Hey bro, I go to a PCA church. We do hold the same view on the sacraments as the PCUSA. I’m sorry ur experience has been different. I can get what u mean by the reformed Baptist stuff, but I don’t think having worship being contemporary hymn like, or not having crazy beautiful churches per se is detrimental to being traditional/reformed (just some examples, I know you didn’t mention these). I agree with the OPC guy you responded to also a bit, I think the people in the body and the gospels purity should be most important. I think The PCA gets the gospel spot on and to me that’s why I attend those church’s. If they were to stray from the gospel, I’d rather go to any non-denomination church that isn’t highly reformed if they got the gospel right (I do hold to spiritual presence and that baptism saves the elect). Would love to hear ur thoughts, I like the vid though!
At least at the ones I’ve attended, I have been taught baptism saves (the elect), and Christ is spiritually present in the Eucharist (which both would be the traditional reformed view)
well that's a pleasant surprise then! If the doctrine really is solid, then that's great! I know beautiful buildings aren't the MOST important thing, but they're far more important than most modern Christians think. One of the curses of modernity is a loss of sacred beauty, so I talk about it a lot to make up for the fact that nobody else does
Analysis on PCA churches is spot on. Started regularly attending one recently and the first thought I had was "wow, finally some real sermons". It does feel somewhat baptisty too. Right now loving it, and the sacraments thing didn't really jump out at me because I was raised in churches that had loose views of the sacraments.
How's the building? I bet it's a magnificent Cathedral (sarcasm). Jk, you're lucky if they have any building at all lolol
@@redeemedzoomer6053 It is literally just a smol brick lololol. No cool colors or glass sadly :(
Well actually there is a cool circular window above the pulpit that shows beautiful flowing trees during service. So there is something simple and gracefully pleasing about it from the inside. But it is definitely humble and doesn't really add to the culture, especially the outside is just bleh. The innards spark nostalgia.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 It's also important to note that there is a small swingset outside to swing on.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I attend a PCA church and it is shockingly beautiful, it's over 100 years old, has massive stain glass windows, huge white columns in the front, a vast stain glass ceiling and an entire second wing of the building that we run a school out of. I agree that generally PCA churches aren't anything that stands out. I just wanted to mention what an anomaly mine is. :D
Can all denominations make their church in your Minecraft world, because I am reformed Protestant church go'er
The OPC church local to me IS in fact an old historic brick building in the center of town. I know the pastor and I’ve watched a few services online and they seem wonderful! I go to a faithful reformed baptist church and I do not plan on leaving, but being Presbyterian in my views I consider that OPC church my “contingency church” lol.
You should make a new video on theological liberalism and progressive Christianity.
I wonder how he would rank the first century churches in this list, the ones started by Peter and Paul. They preached Jesus, and Him crucified for our sins. They baptized believers. Yet, he criticizes Baptists (actually Anabaptists) for doing the same. The early church didn't have man-made traditions that accumulated over the year, which for some reason seem so important to him.
Would the first century churches be C or less? I always thought the apostles teachings were the model.
Wait why put something both in F and S tier? Why not just put it halfway?
Because the good things in it are REALLY good, and the bad things in it are REALLY bad.
It’s not just a “meh, it’s in the middle” denomination, it’s a denomination with things that are S, and other things that are F. They don’t average out somehow. Go to a PCUSA church and perhaps it’ll make a little sense.
My father, for over a decade, worked as a United Methodist pastor in various Midwestern cities and towns. In the late 1970's, he was in a small Iowa city with five churches. The other four were, by denomination, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Congregationalist/ United Church of Christ, and Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. Once a year, the pastors of all five churches, except the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, would take part in a joint service. My father asked the Lutheran minister why he wouldn't do it, and the response was, "Because it would show I agree with what you are doing."
CREC is a vast majority non-FV btw, from your friendly neighborhood CREC member. Jim Jordan and Peter Leithart are really the only FV guys left but even Jordan has softened. Another note of the CREC is that a lot of CREC churches came out of the PCA and SBC (and the remanets of ARBCA) because they wanted either more a more kuyperean or theonomic political/social stance and they wanted a higher sacramentology (most of the CREC where I live would be reformed anglican if they didn't reject episcopacy.)
Here's the thing - a lot of PCA folks think high sacramentology is quasi-Anglican, but really it's just Presbyterian, and the PCA sacramentology is quasi-Baptist
In your opinion if someone views the sacraments as symbolic, but believes in christ (like Baptist) are they automatically damned?
No, since the sacraments are objective. The power of God working through the sacraments does not depend on whether someone “believes” it will work. God is not a fairy from Neverland; He does not require a person’s belief in Him to be effective in saving.
You may believe that the sacraments are purely symbolic, but you’re wrong. It would be like saying that 2+2=6. You can make that statement if you would like; you’ll just be false.
God works through the sacraments in a very real way. And the good thing is that He works through it even if you don’t know it or understand it. That’s how powerful He is and how great His grace is.
12:55 sacraments are a *means* of salvation? What about "by faith alone"? Ephesians 2:8-9 and such verses?
15:30 "and this water symbolizes baptism that now sayes you also--not the removal of dirst from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It says you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" the verse as the word "symbolizes" in it. In whatever sense I know that we arent drawing from the original translation but many translation put in this word.
And of course there's many such verses that back up the idea that it speaking of a symbol, just given how many people where saved without baptism.
Firstly, reformed christians believe that salvation does come by faith alone. But we also believe that only those who have faith do the sacraments because those who have "faith" but willingly refuse to do the sacraments for whatever reason do not have real faith. So in a sense it is both by faith alone and a means of salvation if that makes sense.
Second, we believe that the water itself is symbolic but it is also intertwined with spiritual baptism which is what saves you. I hope this makes sense, feel free to criticize it.
Agreed. I looked at a lot of scripture relating to this and the sacraments I was raised up to believe made less and less sense to me. Went from LCMS to First Baptist.
@@runictellings1536 Correct me if I’m wrong, but your saying the only point of sacraments is a symbol? Why would we do them if they have no in depth meaning?
@@cormundum_o Symbolic does not mean not having an in-depth meaning. Passover was an entirely symbolic feast (which is part of why I view communion is symbolic: it was done in the context of an extremely symbolic feast), but it certainly was not meaningless to Christ. Standing for the pledge of allegiance is purely symbolic, but certainly has an in-depth meaning.
@@cormundum_o well that is relatively theologically consistent but doesnt really make that much sense to me. I know that faith without works is dead, but as of what those works are I dont think the sacraments count. Like, take the thief on the cross with Jesus, he did none of the sacraments, yet right then and there, Jesus had told him he would be in heaven. He possibly didnt even have the "correct" faith in that moment, because its likely he believed in the "two messiahs" thing. Which is definitely interesting to note because there are multiple points in the bible where people are incorrect in why they show their faith, but are shown to be good in having that faith regardless. Which to me feels like a principle that works against this concept outright.
Went to an OPC church. Yes the church was small and not alot of people there. Everyone was polite and i felt welcome. The pastor was great, im conservative and we agreed on almost everything so i was very glad to see this
Sure! But, how much of an impact does that church have on the community? That was kinda my whole criticism of the OPC
I am from Birmingham, Alabama where the PCA denomination was started. Sadly, Redeemed Zoomer is right it feels like the PCA is scared of the Baptists. There is a CREC church and a Reformed Anglican Church in town that I am thinking about joining.
Are you referring to Christ the King Anglican?
@@wesmorgan7729 No. I think they are more Anglo Catholic.
@@johnking9161 I watched a service of theirs on RUclips once (I think it was that church). Whichever one I watched seemed more evangelical.
In the reform of the PCUSA wouldn't be best to dump the confession of 67' and belhar?
Belhar maybe… ‘67 is good tho
This video would have been better if each denomination was graded using a multiple criteria rubric rather than flat tiers. You were on by putting the PCUSA in multiple tiers. Each denomination should have gotten the same treatment.