After listening this beautiful and elegant Missa, it's clear to me that from the year 1725 the style of Zelenka became more measured and mature compared to the Missa Sancti Spiritus, composed just two years earlier. From now on, Zelenka improved astonishingly his own unique compositional voice adding more and more elements from the emerging galant style, writing his best things by the years 1729-1731. Then something really incredible happened, later in his life Zelenka was able to learn even MORE, absorbing the fashionable style of Hasse and confronting himself with the works of Bach, he was able to write his final and immortal masterpieces. I just can't wait to hear the first masses of Heinichen, just to understand more clearly how great was his influence on Zelenka at the beginning, when he was kapellmeister. Looking at the scores, Heinichen masses in 1721 and 1722 were big and artful. So, i'm sure that i will listen to those works of art here, because ZelenkaGuru is one of the really best channels of youtube 🙌 (and we need more Fux and Caldara too)
@@jocelynreinhardt4093 Hello dear Jocelyn, i think that maybe is incorrect to say that Zelenka never confronted the works of Bach since, in the contrary, we can think the two composers were friends and admired each other music greatly. More: they shared the same passion about ancient polyphony, as seen through the lens of Fux's Gradus. It's for me impossible not to hear the influence of Bach in the later Masses of Zelenka from 1736, in complexity of thought, profundity of feeling and dimensions: he sure saw and maybe heard the great Missa of Bach in 1733, who in turn was inspired by the masses of Zelenka and other composers connected to Dresden in the '20s, expecially italian composers, like Caldara, Sarro, Pergolesi, Lotti and Vivaldi. So, it is known from Forkel that Bach knew and admired greatly the music of Zelenka and we know from Mizler that Zelenka's fugues and orchestral tutti were "magnificent" and that Zelenka death was mourned in Leipzig in 1745. It's for me impossible to think that Zelenka never confronted the works of Bach and i'm sure that in the future more studies will be written about this two-way and fascinating musical relationship.
@@lucadeieso4815, in 1733 Bach's Mass in B Minor was not completely finished. He had only written the Kyrie and the Gloria, which was completed by Bach after Zelenka's death in 1748/49, a year or two before his own death. The style of this mass compared to those of Zelenka is, all the same, fundamentally different. That of Bach navigates in serenity, when one listens to the Missa Dei Filli or Patris of Zelenka, one is subjugated by the deployed energy. In reality, Zelenka's musical language is closer to that of Handel than to Bach. You have to listen for example to the motet Dixit Dominus by Handel, it's very close to Zelenka: ruclips.net/video/ajl48xgLlqo/видео.html. Also, like Zelenka, Handel was capable of producing dissonant and mournful fugues : ruclips.net/video/3J2ATOYM3jw/видео.html
@@lucadeieso4815 I think Jocelyn is right, and you - maybe unconsciously - project back the usual "Bach-formulas" of musicological (and other) writings, and the musical canon of composers with which most of us view the history of classical music today. It is many times mentioned about Mozart and Beethoven, that they "confronted the works of Bach", while its true they also confronted Fux's treatise, and Mozart and Haydn learned counterpoint by the influence of lesser known but its not emphasized as much as the famous "Bach-influence". We fill the spaces of the unknown by putting the known into it and unjustly magnifying its effects. At least that's how I interpret these usual and boring formulas of "the great line of German composers" - leaving out Italiens, Zelenka, Myslvecek, Salieri etc., etc.
@@kurcsics2012it's clear to me that the relation between Zelenka and Bach Is much more profound than the thought of the "usual Bach-formulas". Zelenka was a very sensible composer and Is really impossible that he was not aware of the beauty and the common spiritual connection with Bach's works. The two in fact were friends, and Zelenka shared some his library to Bach, who could study the stile antico in the last decade of his life, together with the Gradus of Fux. You can hear the influence of Zelenka even in the music of W.F. Bach. Don't forget that Bach was known not only as the greatest organist of his time, but one of the 5 greatest german composers of his time in general, together with Telemann, Graun, Hasse and Handel (you can read this in the writing of Mattheson) and even when he was alive he was respected and revered by all true lovers of the art, and we know that he was well know even in Italy since the year 1750.
Jan Dismas Zelenka's Missa "Fidei" /Z.6/ composed in the year 1726, however, due to the lack of research by scholars on this work, it's origins remain speculative.
I have a question: the second Kyrie (6:22) is almost identical to the first (1:33), since it is combined with the Christe Eleison, is it a double fugue or not ?
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru, I also said to myself: it seemed more logical to introduce a double fugue if there is Christe Eleison in it after the first fugue of Kyrie on the same subject. In any case, in his place, that's what I would have done. Curiously, he anticipates Mozart who had the same idea with that of his Requiem.
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru, or it is Mozart rather who showed himself archaic in his Kyrie. The final formula in a slower tempo ends in an "empty" fifth (a chord without third), which in the classical era does not sound modern, like a deliberate back to the time of Zelenka. That said, the subject is taken from Handel : ruclips.net/video/8_RXNXmPccI/видео.html
![Shenseea - Dating Szn (Options) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eUePmZFIXUg/mqdefault.jpg)
After listening this beautiful and elegant Missa, it's clear to me that from the year 1725 the style of Zelenka became more measured and mature compared to the Missa Sancti Spiritus, composed just two years earlier. From now on, Zelenka improved astonishingly his own unique compositional voice adding more and more elements from the emerging galant style, writing his best things by the years 1729-1731. Then something really incredible happened, later in his life Zelenka was able to learn even MORE, absorbing the fashionable style of Hasse and confronting himself with the works of Bach, he was able to write his final and immortal masterpieces. I just can't wait to hear the first masses of Heinichen, just to understand more clearly how great was his influence on Zelenka at the beginning, when he was kapellmeister. Looking at the scores, Heinichen masses in 1721 and 1722 were big and artful. So, i'm sure that i will listen to those works of art here, because ZelenkaGuru is one of the really best channels of youtube 🙌 (and we need more Fux and Caldara too)
He never confronted the works of Bach but of Johann Fux who was his mentor and who wrote a treatise on counterpoint in 1725 (Gradus ad Parnassum)
@@jocelynreinhardt4093 Hello dear Jocelyn, i think that maybe is incorrect to say that Zelenka never confronted the works of Bach since, in the contrary, we can think the two composers were friends and admired each other music greatly. More: they shared the same passion about ancient polyphony, as seen through the lens of Fux's Gradus. It's for me impossible not to hear the influence of Bach in the later Masses of Zelenka from 1736, in complexity of thought, profundity of feeling and dimensions: he sure saw and maybe heard the great Missa of Bach in 1733, who in turn was inspired by the masses of Zelenka and other composers connected to Dresden in the '20s, expecially italian composers, like Caldara, Sarro, Pergolesi, Lotti and Vivaldi. So, it is known from Forkel that Bach knew and admired greatly the music of Zelenka and we know from Mizler that Zelenka's fugues and orchestral tutti were "magnificent" and that Zelenka death was mourned in Leipzig in 1745. It's for me impossible to think that Zelenka never confronted the works of Bach and i'm sure that in the future more studies will be written about this two-way and fascinating musical relationship.
@@lucadeieso4815, in 1733 Bach's Mass in B Minor was not completely finished. He had only written the Kyrie and the Gloria, which was completed by Bach after Zelenka's death in 1748/49, a year or two before his own death. The style of this mass compared to those of Zelenka is, all the same, fundamentally different. That of Bach navigates in serenity, when one listens to the Missa Dei Filli or Patris of Zelenka, one is subjugated by the deployed energy. In reality, Zelenka's musical language is closer to that of Handel than to Bach. You have to listen for example to the motet Dixit Dominus by Handel, it's very close to Zelenka: ruclips.net/video/ajl48xgLlqo/видео.html. Also, like Zelenka, Handel was capable of producing dissonant and mournful fugues : ruclips.net/video/3J2ATOYM3jw/видео.html
@@lucadeieso4815 I think Jocelyn is right, and you - maybe unconsciously - project back the usual "Bach-formulas" of musicological (and other) writings, and the musical canon of composers with which most of us view the history of classical music today. It is many times mentioned about Mozart and Beethoven, that they "confronted the works of Bach", while its true they also confronted Fux's treatise, and Mozart and Haydn learned counterpoint by the influence of lesser known but its not emphasized as much as the famous "Bach-influence". We fill the spaces of the unknown by putting the known into it and unjustly magnifying its effects. At least that's how I interpret these usual and boring formulas of "the great line of German composers" - leaving out Italiens, Zelenka, Myslvecek, Salieri etc., etc.
@@kurcsics2012it's clear to me that the relation between Zelenka and Bach Is much more profound than the thought of the "usual Bach-formulas". Zelenka was a very sensible composer and Is really impossible that he was not aware of the beauty and the common spiritual connection with Bach's works. The two in fact were friends, and Zelenka shared some his library to Bach, who could study the stile antico in the last decade of his life, together with the Gradus of Fux. You can hear the influence of Zelenka even in the music of W.F. Bach. Don't forget that Bach was known not only as the greatest organist of his time, but one of the 5 greatest german composers of his time in general, together with Telemann, Graun, Hasse and Handel (you can read this in the writing of Mattheson) and even when he was alive he was respected and revered by all true lovers of the art, and we know that he was well know even in Italy since the year 1750.
This composer is overwhelmingly good
Jan Dismas Zelenka's Missa "Fidei" /Z.6/ composed in the year 1726, however, due to the lack of research by scholars on this work, it's origins remain speculative.
Tyto skladby... srdeční záležitost ❤️🌸
Other Masses (Z.1-21) > ruclips.net/p/PLBbL1YJd7_Wr4NRfNe9APKP147z9ok0sV
I have a question: the second Kyrie (6:22) is almost identical to the first (1:33), since it is combined with the Christe Eleison, is it a double fugue or not ?
You are correct, didn't notice it at the time I was filling out the description, corrected
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru, I also said to myself: it seemed more logical to introduce a double fugue if there is Christe Eleison in it after the first fugue of Kyrie on the same subject. In any case, in his place, that's what I would have done. Curiously, he anticipates Mozart who had the same idea with that of his Requiem.
@@jocelynreinhardt4093 Zelenka was galant, but in much more advanced terms in that of say, his colleague Johann Adolph Hasse, when he wanted to be.
@@TheOneAndOnlyZelenkaGuru, or it is Mozart rather who showed himself archaic in his Kyrie. The final formula in a slower tempo ends in an "empty" fifth (a chord without third), which in the classical era does not sound modern, like a deliberate back to the time of Zelenka. That said, the subject is taken from Handel : ruclips.net/video/8_RXNXmPccI/видео.html
Zelenka aveces me resulta superior a j.s .bach