I've suspected that Aegon was actually the infertile one. Visenya was loyal to Aegon but Rhaenys would take lovers when her husband wasn't looking, and could have become pregnant by one of them. At some point Visenya must have realized it was her husband who was infertile, not her, and she did what she felt she had to do to conceive a child.
I was a little confused cause after about 5minutes of listening to childbirth of monstrous creatures i had an ad "if you are pregnant it is time...." for some pregnancy supplement. These companies really know how to sell their stuff😅
I love this Theory, tho I think Maegor was a necessary evil, one to save the monarchy from the faith and Vysenia was definitely working for the survival of the Targ line.
I always thought everything we knew about Maegor and Visenya was a smear campaign by the faith who at the time and probably still are against the targs. Yes probably most of the stuff on them is true but I thought the torture of viserys was and Aneys death everything else was taken to the extremes to make them look extreme.
I wondered if sorcery was involved in Maegor's conception, considering Visenya's circumstances it does seem likely to me. A forced conception through sorcery resulting in a barren heir, which Maegor certainly was in my opinion, makes a lot of sense as we all know magic is dangerous and costly in this story.
there is a great video that talk about the fact that Visenya did use sorcery (dark magic) to make Maegor, but end up losing everything because at end her sister line continue last 280 years and her son reign last only 6 years. Statement Maegor was NOT infertile/barren he made four of his wives pregnant it was Tyanna of Tower who poison the women. In fact Maegor (maybe father a bastard name Silver Denys) but this unproven. It was his first wife who was barren.
@@sophiawilson8696 nah silver denys was lying. The dragon he tried to claim rejected him immediately and then the cannibal ate him. He was no targaryen
I agree while i don't like how cruel he was I agree that he save his family if it was not for him the Targaryens would have been wiped out by the faith and the Citadel. Because I still believe that the Citadel was one hundred percent behind the Dance Of Dragons, since they could not kill teenage or adult dragons they got them to kill each other. The faith and the Citadel are two organizations whose power base the Targaryens should have completely destroyed.
Maegor murdered his nephews Aegon and Viserys, threatened to kill Rhaena's daughters if she didn't marry him, and tried to kill Jaeherys too. Yep. Definitely saved the Targs
@@ghufrankhalid1719 Who else would have stood up to Oldtown as the realm descended into chaos? A chaos caused by Oldtown I may add. Everything we read about Maegor comes from Maester history and the Andals didn't love Valyrian customs and rule. I call bullshit on so much of what's attributed to Maegor the Strong.
@@veritasinvicta8128Aegon the un crowned and jaehaeris could do that with better methods, Maegor wasn't the only one who could do that when the whole damn family had dragons, lol
Saying that Tyanna did what she did because she was forced by Meagor takes unessecarily responsibility away from her. Atrocities like the proscription lists that doomed many people to death and torture where not ideas of Meagor. That was her doing as a sort of master of whispers. Meagor was not the only monster in this story.
Man Quinn when you read from fire and blood,makes me wanna go back and read those pages again.I vvisualize the content so much more and take on the subject your covering is spot on good job .
You are always so eloquent when you talk, even in a live setting! Thank you for all that you do! She is a character that we are all still getting to know and I love your examination on her. I think that you are on to something with her keeping Visenya's secrets.
Morgane was the very first comparison that jumped into my mind when I saw both the description and then further, the gorgeous pictures of Tyanna in Fire & Blood! I love this channel and I love this series on "witches" from ASOIAF.
Love your work but there's some problems with this one. Firstly, Maegor's evilness is greatly overblown, and whilst he certainly was a hard man, nothing he did was for pleasure, and the worst of his deeds all were orchestrated by Tyanna. I'd argue Aerion and Joffrey were much more evil, and that Aerys, and possibly Aegon V, were crazier at the end of their reigns. There's so much more that can be said in Maegor's defense but I'll move on. The idea that Visenya's pregnancy didn't happen as we've been told is a very interesting possibility. However, it's extremely unlikely Tyanna was involved. We're not given an exact age for her but I don't believe she was old enough to have anything to do with it. It also seems that Visenya didn't care for her much at all. Don't forget Visenya didn't summon Tyanna to Westeros. She came on a ship with Alys and sellswords. It's likely that when Maegor left to claim the throne Alys and maybe Tyanna were charged with hiring mercenaries and bringing them to Westeros. Assuming it took a few weeks to organize, their arrival 27 days later makes sense. If Tyanna was summoned specifically to save Maegor's life then why wait to hire 600 sellswords before leaving? If summoned to save him wouldn't it make more sense for Tyanna to have arrived within a week of his injuries, and for Alys to arrive later, on a different ship, with the sellswords? Also keep in mind Visenya didn't join her son in exile so it's quite possible she never met, or even knew of, Tyanna until she stepped off the ship. To me it seems Tyanna was exactly what she seems. A sadist with enough talent, beauty, and status to place herself in the right place, at the right time, to gain the power to indulge her evil desires by influencing a man who was physically and emotionally vulnerable. Much like Stannis is presented to us as man made of iron that will break before he bend, Maegor always did what he thought needed to be done until the strain of constant attacks and failure to father a child caused him to break. Tyanna simply knew how to wield the broken sword Maegor became until she too died by its blade.
I have always thought that Viseyna brought back Maegor in a Thoros/Beric sorta way and played it off after she sent for the two women. Brilliant video so glad I'm not the only one seeing connections.. Think Alys Rivers the Witch Queen connected as well now also?
Rhee Venjenz I think that Tyanna helped Visenya trade Visenya’s life force for Maegor - similar to what you say but that it was Tyanna who drove it, not Visenya... this is why Visenya withered away, and why Maegor’s reign went completely to pot once she died
That’s an interesting theory. I believe all the magic in Planetos comes from the same source - well spring, if you’ve read the Magicians. The essence transfer of the white walkers, children wed to trees, glass candles, Roose Bolton, etc
I came to your channel for the Dune content (having a strong fondness for the film), but you’ve managed to make ASOIF as compelling to me as I find Dune, and motivated me to read both sagas. Thanks for all your content. I really enjoy all of it.
I always felt that Maegor's inability to produce a viable heir was related to a genetic reproductive anormality he likely inherited due to his family's inbreeding. He may have been surrounded with strange and mysterious women, plotting for and against him, but I feel that Maegor's greatest failure was brought on only by his own impotence.
Maegor got his various wives pregnant several times. There for not impotent or sterile. While still births have been a problem for the Targaryens never straight up infertility or sterility. Bear in mind the same inbreeding was present in the family lines that birthed an arguable over abundance of Targs leafing up to The Dance of Dragons.
I've a mad Maegor theory I've been touting a while now on comments elsewhere online and , if you don't mind, I'll repeat here because this vid is particularly pertinent. What if Magor’s father is Balerion The Black Dread? That Visenya in her dark magic studies discovered that early Valyrians discovered (or were taught) that a mixture of sinister rites and a, er, well, sample of dragon semen (via artificial insemination) creates a child a dragon will accept as a rider. It explains Aegon’s disgust with his sister and his dislike of his ‘son’. It explains Maegor’s monstrous still born children (the blood of the dragon having still not thinned out) and his angry, inhumanly cruel temperament (and the slight inhumanity of the Targaeryens and the dragonriding families generally). When you consider this is a world where sorceresses birth shadow babies it’s actually not that far fetched. It also might explain what happened to that Princess who came back from Valyria full of snake-like things: there's some degenerate descendants of Valyrian survivors still there, trying (and hideously failing) to enact the rights of their ancestors. Tinfoil, admittedly, but tinfoil with few holes in it...
While watching this video I was thinking the same thing! The Dragon hybrid theory would truly explain a lot about Maegor in particular and the complete Targaeryen dynasty in general. If I recall correctly, there are several reports about stillborn abominations during the history of this family.
I would disagree...Dany gave birth to a creature similar to Visenya. The Maegors baby was affected by Tyanna's magic like Danys was affected by Mirri Maz Dur's magic. Unless Dany or Rhaella were pumping themselves full of dragon seed too.
I'm sticking to my guns that the maesters were poisoning all of his wives. Cuz think about it the maesters were tending to Maegor when he got hurt and the minute Tyanna touched him, he woke up the next day.
Hasan Wilson Possible. Though I think the best plan was simply to assassinate Maegor himself (which seems to have been what eventually happened.) His potential heirs were hardly a major problem.
I always thought it was obvious since TWoIaF that the maesters were poisoning him. I don't get why so many people want to force magic into a situation that doesn't need it to be explained.
@@Azaghal1988 Where did you get that idea? I have always regarded the Maesters as the intellectual branch of The Faith ( like an order of friars) thought I will admit GRRM has not made this altogether clear.
Is it Tyanna or is it Visenya who is misunderstood? As I commented in one of In Deep Geek's videos, I suspect that Aegon himself was the one who was unable to have children. Visenya used her knowledge or magic to aid both her and her sister's pregnancies. That is why both Aenys and Maegor are extreme forms of their respective mothers' personalities. Also, both men aged unnaturally quickly, looking far older when they died than their actual ages. Visenya must have needed much more effort to bring about Maegor's birth. Thus why all his children were malformed. As to what was between Tyanna and Visenya I don't know. It is very strange that Visenya would have trusted Tyanna with her son so willingly. But it is also written that she had a strong hatred of her too. It is quite possible we are judging Tyanna too harshly. But that's true of just about all the characters. I would remind you that Maegor never even suspected Alys of infidelity until Tyanna told him. And it was she specifically who told him that the malformed child was not his, though I am sure she knew it was.
I love this theory, but there’s a problem. Jaehaerys had 14 children, only the youngest were monsteras. We would have to look and see but I doubt that magic could have helped, but I’m open to anything.
@@adaradavina7450 I was speaking more to the point of Aegon not being able to have children since that was the theory. Yes, Drogon and Whites exist, but we also deal with an author who considers himself a gardener. I do believe the theory has some actual weight, however. If Aegon couldn't have children due to time, it could be the reason Visenya had to use magic. Aegon had many times he was attacked by the Dornish, and that could have led to him not being able to have children. Or one of the many curses that could have been said against him. Visenya, with Aegon's knowledge, or taking matters into her own hands, made a child. Aenys, in my belief, was definitely Aegon's son. A young, pious, dragon rider. Now, Maegor is Visenya's son. I really do like the theory, and I am very happy people are still making them!
@@askimbeatrix8245 maybe both of them had troubles. Aegon not able to impregnate Visenya and visenya hardly to get pregnant. So she could have used magic for both of them, idk. There is alot of magic in the books but the show kinda seems to lack it
The Mists of Avalon is such a f*cking amazing book. If people are into the mythology and the "topic" or "theme" in general, they will *love* this book. 📖❤🕯
I really like where your head is at about Tyanna. It's interesting that our chroniclers are able to give us so little on Visenya. She obviously knew how conceal her actions from most likely everyone.
U are truly one of my favs. All the details, research and hard work u put into these videos. The artwork is beautiful. And ur voice so comfortable to listen to. I love how u break down the characters and stories from the books. Thank u
I think the Maesters were poisoning poor Maegor..... all he wanted was to keep his family as rulers, at the end he knew Westeros needed a strong ruler. Btw, my cat is named Maegor the Cruel.
Look, it CAN'T be a coincidence that SPIDERS and knowing everyone's secrets, AND CREATING THE PERFECT KING, are a theme for Tyanna AND Varys, right?? It's not just me?
I think one of the reasons why Tyanna was so trusted with Magyor's injury was because she was probably the only one capable of healing him due to his unnatural existence. Something created unnaturally through magic likely could only be repaired through Magic. I think his mother did more than just sacrifice her life to restore him I believe she taught Tayana the means by which to heal him in the first place and she couldn't do it herself because she had to be the sacrifice.
@@aoigenei Yes! I tottally agree with you on that. Also I feel like the Dragon lords were practicing techno sorciery and other fields of science with magic involved . Plus I always found it strange that the targs never improved westerous with the stuff they know thought had from their time at Vaylaria unless they knew that the westeroius?/ Andasl were to backwaters and viler to teach and at the sane time couldn't conquer essos becasue I'm pretty sure Aegon new if he did that he and his house would die by the "free" cities hands
I've heard this theory before and its a good one. Visenya was a very dark person indeed. It's curious that no other Targaryan female is ever named Visenya while there are 100 variations of Rhaenys. Likewise theres never another Maegor. Thank you for doing this video. Im really looking forward to more theory videos from Fire and Blood.
@@sophiawilson8696 yes but the kid is born and then we never hear from him again other than the Great Council doesn't want any offspring of Aerion in power.
Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen and Prince Daemon Targaryen had a stillborn daughter named Visenya, who was born a month premature. The child was said to have some dragon like defects, etc. It was said Rhaenyra was cursing the child while she was in labor because news of her fathers death was greatly postponed by the Hightowers and her half brother Aegon had been crowned. She was pissed because her father always insisted she would rule after his death but the Hightower family was greedy and wanted Aegon in power.
@@balerionthedread9284 I understand your point although, you did say no one in the family was ever named Visenya again so my comment isn't wrong. Also, Prince Maegor Targaryen was the son of Prince Aerion and Princess Daenora Targaryen. He died as an infant and they tried to claim the throne but since he was still an infant his uncle Aegon V got the throne instead.
We also have to remember that Oldtown is responsible for th history we read and they certainly had no love for Meagor. The whole "Iron Trone wasn't meant to be his" is so fluid, that's what the dance was fought over. Robert won by strength of conquest the same way Aegon did. When Henry Tudor won the crown of England he "wasn't meant to sit the throne". The truth is the Targayrians were about to be overthrown when Visenya flew to Pentos and retrieved Maegor and Blackfyre, the realm would have descended into chaos, as Oldtown hoped. The Hightower, The citidel and the Starry Sept all hating on the Valyrian customs and rule of House Targaryian. It's an Andal thing.
Would Viserys and Danerys also be products of dark magic? Would Aerys II have been desperate to make more children as Rhaegar was his only son? Aerys II was really weird about protecting Viserys as well. Dany also had a lizard baby.....thats why i ask?
Dunno if we can say she's not evil, if she wasn't she'd never have given him a list or manipulated him into a different course of action. But George loves playing with our expectations with what evil/good should be, as well as taking a lot of time to mention specifically that sources vary on the information in the book.
Thank you so much for your videos and podcasts. I absolutely love them and your discussions and theories.. i couldn't believe my luck when I saw you also love Dune. A man after my own heart 😍😍😍
Visenya and Tyanna definitely made deals Bc when he healed Visenyas health deteriorates until she dies then Maegor becomes a shell of himself and disoriented. Also this witch saved her son but it is said Visenya hated Tyanna after she became queen
Weird thing at the end of this chapter in Fire and Blood; in one of the last paragraphs, it says Maegor’s reign last 6 years and 66 days...666. Why would George Martin included this specific number? Is this considered breaking the 4th wall? Thoughts?
I see it more as an indicator of some "evil" or nefarious actions behind the scene yet to be revealed. That triple 6 is too cheeky to not lead to something later
With everyone being so monstrous and cruel, it makes it impossible to like anyone. I can't wait for a Time for Spring where Sam and Gilly discover the secret island of unicorns and kittens where fruits grow bountiful and rainbows greet everyone every morning.
All the poor fellows that burned made a cloud that lasted a very convenient 7 days? All the people that opposed maegor were very intricately named... But his allies are lucky to get mentioned by name (trial of 7).. Read it with the assumption that the faith amd maesters and hightowers are plotting together... And you'll see that it makes more sense.. Maegor was being treated by the maesters and as soon as they left.. Kaboom. He's better already. And when this all failed.. They stole that girl sara to make the dance.
@@alanpennie8013 well they're both the Master of Whispers and they are both from the free cities so there's that. But I'm not sure what else. I'm pretty sure at this point Varys is a Blackfyre supporter, perhaps even a Blackfyre himself. Varys was a master thief and spy where as Tyanna truly seems to be a sorceress, a practitioner off black magic who speaks to spiders and rats. I think she has more in common with Bloodraven in the way that they operate. The same sort of gossip surrounds them. They both have a kind of "warging" ability. What do you see that they have in common?
I think when witches appear in Westerosi history we are meant to think of 'witches' from our own Middle Ages and of their false trials. Not that they are necesarilly completely analogous, but we should keep the thought in our brains.
I don't understand this theory about Visenya getting pregnant through black magic. I mean we have already seen that how child created through magic looks like in GOT when Melisandre gave birth to a shadow child. Now when Maegor is a full human with normal body, how is it possible? Also if Visenya was able to create a child through magic then she could have done it just after conquest, why she waited for so long? And why just one, she could have created more than one child through that. And when Maegor was unable to have any child then Visenya could have created a child for him as well!
just a logistics q: was tyanna the original mistress of whisper? like did she originate that position? i cant remember if fire and blood had mentioned that title before Maegor's reign
Always enjoy your videos. A few things worth noting for historical context since we know GRRM loves both history and an unreliable narrator. Female village healers and midwives were often named witches because patriarchal society didn’t like women holding a special knowledge. It makes sense to me that Tyanna might fall victim to the vicious rumors of Maesters because of her superior knowledge of the healing arts. Second thing to note: fucked up kiddos are often the result of incest. Men in power never wanted to think it was their issue, rather, it was the woman who must be blamed. Or a curse. Or both. Not to discount the possibility of magic. Magic is real in the books and stillborns have been used in spells. But I do think the historical context offers a bit of intrigue.
Dune: Ticia Cenva, Erasmus, Shaddam, Rev mother Lucilla... ASOIAF: Cersey, Melisandre, Robin, Gregor Clegane... I have many names, just like Arya. Thanks, I love the Targaryen and the Martel. Tyanna seems to be an interesting character, I want to know more about her.
Maegor's actions against the Faith ensured that the house Targaryen lived and ruled for years and generations to come. Enough of this Maegor smear campaign. Maegor's great.
I've been devouring your videos since I found your channel, both ASOIAF and Dune ones. both of whom i'm an avid reader. Have you read the Earthsea book series by Ursula Le Guin? I think it would be a great topic for your channel. If you haven't read it, I recommend you strongly! ;)
I never believed that Tyanna was responsible for Maegor's infertility neither. Maegor was incapable of having children way before Tyanna set foot on King's Landing. Instead of facing the fact that the problem was with him and not with the women, he makes up this whole tale and blames Tyanna. But I never connected Visenya to these facts until now, that is a pretty wit guess, thanks for sharing that!
Could Tyanna have been a skinchanger who could see through the eyes of spiders and rats while she slept? We know of skinchangers in Essos.
It's entirely possible she was also associated with Ravens and that brings to mind Bloodraven
Which skinchangers have been from Essos?
@@EvanSol919 I don’t recall this either.
the skinchangers are part of the old gods and the children of the forest, I haven't heard of a skinchanger in Essos
@@edigod1 I guess there could be humans who learnt skinchanging from Ifequevron.
I've suspected that Aegon was actually the infertile one. Visenya was loyal to Aegon but Rhaenys would take lovers when her husband wasn't looking, and could have become pregnant by one of them. At some point Visenya must have realized it was her husband who was infertile, not her, and she did what she felt she had to do to conceive a child.
SO REAL AND WHENEVER I SAY THIS TO A RHAENYS FAN, THEY SCREAM AT ME LIKE I DID SOMETHING WRONG.
I totally agree with this theory.
I was a little confused cause after about 5minutes of listening to childbirth of monstrous creatures i had an ad "if you are pregnant it is time...." for some pregnancy supplement. These companies really know how to sell their stuff😅
I saw the same ad and got totally confused.
I love this channel. I appreciate the hard work that goes into these videos. Thanks for sharing your Ideas. Keep up the great work
I love this Theory, tho I think Maegor was a necessary evil, one to save the monarchy from the faith and Vysenia was definitely working for the survival of the Targ line.
I think she was responsable for Aenys's death.
@@Pedro-m7f3f She has to be, Aenys died so suddenly after getting sick.
@@Pedro-m7f3fMaybe… or it was the Faith… Which would not be a surprise.
Thanks for focusing on the witches of a song of ice and fire
I always thought everything we knew about Maegor and Visenya was a smear campaign by the faith who at the time and probably still are against the targs. Yes probably most of the stuff on them is true but I thought the torture of viserys was and Aneys death everything else was taken to the extremes to make them look extreme.
Wolfsbane Alphas everything was a smear campaign and probably most of the stuff on them is true? Think before you write out your thoughts.
Doubt it when it comes to these two
I wondered if sorcery was involved in Maegor's conception, considering Visenya's circumstances it does seem likely to me. A forced conception through sorcery resulting in a barren heir, which Maegor certainly was in my opinion, makes a lot of sense as we all know magic is dangerous and costly in this story.
there is a great video that talk about the fact that Visenya did use sorcery (dark magic) to make Maegor, but end up losing everything because at end her sister line continue last 280 years and her son reign last only 6 years. Statement Maegor was NOT infertile/barren he made four of his wives pregnant it was Tyanna of Tower who poison the women. In fact Maegor (maybe father a bastard name Silver Denys) but this unproven. It was his first wife who was barren.
@@sophiawilson8696 nah silver denys was lying. The dragon he tried to claim rejected him immediately and then the cannibal ate him. He was no targaryen
I absolutely love this channel. It’s so chill and so informative.
You should be a professor or something, man.
Maegor was a badass who saved the Targaryans without doubt.
I love your spooky music. It gives me the creeps.
I agree while i don't like how cruel he was I agree that he save his family if it was not for him the Targaryens would have been wiped out by the faith and the Citadel. Because I still believe that the Citadel was one hundred percent behind the Dance Of Dragons, since they could not kill teenage or adult dragons they got them to kill each other. The faith and the Citadel are two organizations whose power base the Targaryens should have completely destroyed.
I think Targaryens' legacy was saved by Visenya. If it wasn't for her the whole dynasty including Maegor would be dead.
Maegor murdered his nephews Aegon and Viserys, threatened to kill Rhaena's daughters if she didn't marry him, and tried to kill Jaeherys too. Yep. Definitely saved the Targs
@@ghufrankhalid1719 Who else would have stood up to Oldtown as the realm descended into chaos? A chaos caused by Oldtown I may add. Everything we read about Maegor comes from Maester history and the Andals didn't love Valyrian customs and rule. I call bullshit on so much of what's attributed to Maegor the Strong.
@@veritasinvicta8128Aegon the un crowned and jaehaeris could do that with better methods, Maegor wasn't the only one who could do that when the whole damn family had dragons, lol
Saying that Tyanna did what she did because she was forced by Meagor takes unessecarily responsibility away from her. Atrocities like the proscription lists that doomed many people to death and torture where not ideas of Meagor. That was her doing as a sort of master of whispers.
Meagor was not the only monster in this story.
Man Quinn when you read from fire and blood,makes me wanna go back and read those pages again.I vvisualize the content so much more and take on the subject your covering is spot on good job .
Visenya is a true queen. Easily my favorite targ.
Idem.
Same
Same
easily
You are always so eloquent when you talk, even in a live setting! Thank you for all that you do! She is a character that we are all still getting to know and I love your examination on her. I think that you are on to something with her keeping Visenya's secrets.
Morgane was the very first comparison that jumped into my mind when I saw both the description and then further, the gorgeous pictures of Tyanna in Fire & Blood! I love this channel and I love this series on "witches" from ASOIAF.
Love your work but there's some problems with this one. Firstly, Maegor's evilness is greatly overblown, and whilst he certainly was a hard man, nothing he did was for pleasure, and the worst of his deeds all were orchestrated by Tyanna. I'd argue Aerion and Joffrey were much more evil, and that Aerys, and possibly Aegon V, were crazier at the end of their reigns. There's so much more that can be said in Maegor's defense but I'll move on.
The idea that Visenya's pregnancy didn't happen as we've been told is a very interesting possibility. However, it's extremely unlikely Tyanna was involved. We're not given an exact age for her but I don't believe she was old enough to have anything to do with it. It also seems that Visenya didn't care for her much at all. Don't forget Visenya didn't summon Tyanna to Westeros. She came on a ship with Alys and sellswords. It's likely that when Maegor left to claim the throne Alys and maybe Tyanna were charged with hiring mercenaries and bringing them to Westeros. Assuming it took a few weeks to organize, their arrival 27 days later makes sense. If Tyanna was summoned specifically to save Maegor's life then why wait to hire 600 sellswords before leaving? If summoned to save him wouldn't it make more sense for Tyanna to have arrived within a week of his injuries, and for Alys to arrive later, on a different ship, with the sellswords? Also keep in mind Visenya didn't join her son in exile so it's quite possible she never met, or even knew of, Tyanna until she stepped off the ship. To me it seems Tyanna was exactly what she seems. A sadist with enough talent, beauty, and status to place herself in the right place, at the right time, to gain the power to indulge her evil desires by influencing a man who was physically and emotionally vulnerable. Much like Stannis is presented to us as man made of iron that will break before he bend, Maegor always did what he thought needed to be done until the strain of constant attacks and failure to father a child caused him to break. Tyanna simply knew how to wield the broken sword Maegor became until she too died by its blade.
Oldtown lies, they hate Maegor for saving the realm subsequent to Aeny's death.
I have always thought that Viseyna brought back Maegor in a Thoros/Beric sorta way and played it off after she sent for the two women. Brilliant video so glad I'm not the only one seeing connections.. Think Alys Rivers the Witch Queen connected as well now also?
Rhee Venjenz I think that Tyanna helped Visenya trade Visenya’s life force for Maegor - similar to what you say but that it was Tyanna who drove it, not Visenya... this is why Visenya withered away, and why Maegor’s reign went completely to pot once she died
That’s an interesting theory. I believe all the magic in Planetos comes from the same source - well spring, if you’ve read the Magicians. The essence transfer of the white walkers, children wed to trees, glass candles, Roose Bolton, etc
This world is so rich and I love it. Keep up the good work dude!
Wow taking the dissection up several notches, love it. Most appreciated.
I came to your channel for the Dune content (having a strong fondness for the film), but you’ve managed to make ASOIF as compelling to me as I find Dune, and motivated me to read both sagas. Thanks for all your content. I really enjoy all of it.
I always felt that Maegor's inability to produce a viable heir was related to a genetic reproductive anormality he likely inherited due to his family's inbreeding. He may have been surrounded with strange and mysterious women, plotting for and against him, but I feel that Maegor's greatest failure was brought on only by his own impotence.
Maegor made four his wives pregnant it was Tyanna who poison the women and made them give birth to stillborn babies.
Valyrian incest doesn't really produce physical drawbacks.
Jaehaerys and Alysanne, brother and sister, had thirteen children.
@@fvriovs5502 a year late and a few Golden Dragons short, but it seems that Targs only have dragon babies when magic is involved.
Maegor got his various wives pregnant several times. There for not impotent or sterile. While still births have been a problem for the Targaryens never straight up infertility or sterility. Bear in mind the same inbreeding was present in the family lines that birthed an arguable over abundance of Targs leafing up to The Dance of Dragons.
I thought Maegor's inability to reproduce was from being kicked by that horse he abused as a child.
Visenya was str8 up slandered
The sound in the background works very well in this Gem of a story.
Maegor was one of the best kings. He did what was necessary. The maesters just had too much propaganda.
The Maesters are liars and conspirators. Andals hate Valyrians and First Men.
I've a mad Maegor theory I've been touting a while now on comments elsewhere online and , if you don't mind, I'll repeat here because this vid is particularly pertinent. What if Magor’s father is Balerion The Black Dread? That Visenya in her dark magic studies discovered that early Valyrians discovered (or were taught) that a mixture of sinister rites and a, er, well, sample of dragon semen (via artificial insemination) creates a child a dragon will accept as a rider.
It explains Aegon’s disgust with his sister and his dislike of his ‘son’. It explains Maegor’s monstrous still born children (the blood of the dragon having still not thinned out) and his angry, inhumanly cruel temperament (and the slight inhumanity of the Targaeryens and the dragonriding families generally).
When you consider this is a world where sorceresses birth shadow babies it’s actually not that far fetched. It also might explain what happened to that Princess who came back from Valyria full of snake-like things: there's some degenerate descendants of Valyrian survivors still there, trying (and hideously failing) to enact the rights of their ancestors.
Tinfoil, admittedly, but tinfoil with few holes in it...
While watching this video I was thinking the same thing!
The Dragon hybrid theory would truly explain a lot about Maegor in particular and the complete Targaeryen dynasty in general. If I recall correctly, there are several reports about stillborn abominations during the history of this family.
@@AGS363 Praise the Seven, someone out there doesn't think I'm utterly crazy harping on about this one!
Me too!
I would disagree...Dany gave birth to a creature similar to Visenya. The Maegors baby was affected by Tyanna's magic like Danys was affected by Mirri Maz Dur's magic. Unless Dany or Rhaella were pumping themselves full of dragon seed too.
James Worrad Great therory ut I think instead of Maegor and Visenya it should be for the firewyrms that were inside aeera
I'm sticking to my guns that the maesters were poisoning all of his wives. Cuz think about it the maesters were tending to Maegor when he got hurt and the minute Tyanna touched him, he woke up the next day.
Hasan Wilson
Possible. Though I think the best plan was simply to assassinate Maegor himself (which seems to have been what eventually happened.) His potential heirs were hardly a major problem.
I always thought it was obvious since TWoIaF that the maesters were poisoning him. I don't get why so many people want to force magic into a situation that doesn't need it to be explained.
Masters are at odds with the faith, why would they poisen the Guy who wants to Break the faith's power?
@@Azaghal1988 because the faith made the maesters rewrite history having stories about knights in Westeros during the Age of Heroes
@@Azaghal1988
Where did you get that idea?
I have always regarded the Maesters as the intellectual branch of The Faith ( like an order of friars) thought I will admit GRRM has not made this altogether clear.
Is it Tyanna or is it Visenya who is misunderstood? As I commented in one of In Deep Geek's videos, I suspect that Aegon himself was the one who was unable to have children. Visenya used her knowledge or magic to aid both her and her sister's pregnancies. That is why both Aenys and Maegor are extreme forms of their respective mothers' personalities. Also, both men aged unnaturally quickly, looking far older when they died than their actual ages. Visenya must have needed much more effort to bring about Maegor's birth. Thus why all his children were malformed. As to what was between Tyanna and Visenya I don't know. It is very strange that Visenya would have trusted Tyanna with her son so willingly. But it is also written that she had a strong hatred of her too. It is quite possible we are judging Tyanna too harshly. But that's true of just about all the characters. I would remind you that Maegor never even suspected Alys of infidelity until Tyanna told him. And it was she specifically who told him that the malformed child was not his, though I am sure she knew it was.
Oh I really love this theory
I love this theory, but there’s a problem. Jaehaerys had 14 children, only the youngest were monsteras. We would have to look and see but I doubt that magic could have helped, but I’m open to anything.
@@askimbeatrix8245 „I doubt magic could have helped“
Bro it’s GoT they have dragons and ice zombies Hahahaha
@@adaradavina7450 I was speaking more to the point of Aegon not being able to have children since that was the theory. Yes, Drogon and Whites exist, but we also deal with an author who considers himself a gardener. I do believe the theory has some actual weight, however. If Aegon couldn't have children due to time, it could be the reason Visenya had to use magic. Aegon had many times he was attacked by the Dornish, and that could have led to him not being able to have children. Or one of the many curses that could have been said against him. Visenya, with Aegon's knowledge, or taking matters into her own hands, made a child. Aenys, in my belief, was definitely Aegon's son. A young, pious, dragon rider. Now, Maegor is Visenya's son. I really do like the theory, and I am very happy people are still making them!
@@askimbeatrix8245 maybe both of them had troubles. Aegon not able to impregnate Visenya and visenya hardly to get pregnant. So she could have used magic for both of them, idk. There is alot of magic in the books but the show kinda seems to lack it
The Mists of Avalon is such a f*cking amazing book. If people are into the mythology and the "topic" or "theme" in general, they will *love* this book. 📖❤🕯
I really like where your head is at about Tyanna. It's interesting that our chroniclers are able to give us so little on Visenya. She obviously knew how conceal her actions from most likely everyone.
I see everything in fire in blood through the same lens as the play of the purple wedding that Arya watches.
Dude, you gotta go into the audiobook industry fam, you gonna make gold
Recently discovered you on Robert’s In deep geek channel! Excellent content and analysis.
U are truly one of my favs. All the details, research and hard work u put into these videos. The artwork is beautiful. And ur voice so comfortable to listen to. I love how u break down the characters and stories from the books. Thank u
“A throne I might add that he was never meant to sit...BALANCE.”
*quinn drops mic*
Great as always have a great week man
exceptional work and analysis, sir
Awesome 👍 as always , thanks for all u do Quinn
solid theory man; and great work! 👍🏿
I think the Maesters were poisoning poor Maegor..... all he wanted was to keep his family as rulers, at the end he knew Westeros needed a strong ruler. Btw, my cat is named Maegor the Cruel.
This seems to have a LOT of parallels to Danys early story. Perhaps Dany is a product of unnatural origins as well.
This is a possibility worth exploring
Well, she was supposedly conceived after Aerys brutally beat and raped Rhaella following his burning of a victim (can’t remember exactly who)
That would be his newly resigned Hand, Qarlton Chelsted. Him being sacrificed led to Dany being conceived. Aerys was one sick puppy
It would be fucked up if Meagor was Aegon’s only true son while Aenys was a bastard
That most definitely was the case
Look, it CAN'T be a coincidence that SPIDERS and knowing everyone's secrets, AND CREATING THE PERFECT KING, are a theme for Tyanna AND Varys, right?? It's not just me?
I think one of the reasons why Tyanna was so trusted with Magyor's injury was because she was probably the only one capable of healing him due to his unnatural existence. Something created unnaturally through magic likely could only be repaired through Magic. I think his mother did more than just sacrifice her life to restore him I believe she taught Tayana the means by which to heal him in the first place and she couldn't do it herself because she had to be the sacrifice.
And also because maesters were trying to poison Targaryens, on accounts of many deaths by "bad belly".
@@aoigenei Yes! I tottally agree with you on that. Also I feel like the Dragon lords were practicing techno sorciery and other fields of science with magic involved . Plus I always found it strange that the targs never improved westerous with the stuff they know thought had from their time at Vaylaria unless they knew that the westeroius?/ Andasl were to backwaters and viler to teach and at the sane time couldn't conquer essos becasue I'm pretty sure Aegon new if he did that he and his house would die by the "free" cities hands
oh that is interesting! but your remember Visenya never like Tyanna either but did trust her with her son health.
I thought maesters poison the dragons over the many years that the reason that they got smaller and smaller.
@@sophiawilson8696 They did but remember the DL ruled for 5,000 years one should not underestmate such power ever
I've heard this theory before and its a good one. Visenya was a very dark person indeed. It's curious that no other Targaryan female is ever named Visenya while there are 100 variations of Rhaenys. Likewise theres never another Maegor.
Thank you for doing this video. Im really looking forward to more theory videos from Fire and Blood.
Aerion Targaryen Bright flame name his son Maegor
@@sophiawilson8696 yes but the kid is born and then we never hear from him again other than the Great Council doesn't want any offspring of Aerion in power.
Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen and Prince Daemon Targaryen had a stillborn daughter named Visenya, who was born a month premature. The child was said to have some dragon like defects, etc. It was said Rhaenyra was cursing the child while she was in labor because news of her fathers death was greatly postponed by the Hightowers and her half brother Aegon had been crowned. She was pissed because her father always insisted she would rule after his death but the Hightower family was greedy and wanted Aegon in power.
@@melindoranightsilver9298 but no character who lived was named Visenya
@@balerionthedread9284 I understand your point although, you did say no one in the family was ever named Visenya again so my comment isn't wrong. Also, Prince Maegor Targaryen was the son of Prince Aerion and Princess Daenora Targaryen. He died as an infant and they tried to claim the throne but since he was still an infant his uncle Aegon V got the throne instead.
Another great video analysis!
We also have to remember that Oldtown is responsible for th history we read and they certainly had no love for Meagor. The whole "Iron Trone wasn't meant to be his" is so fluid, that's what the dance was fought over. Robert won by strength of conquest the same way Aegon did. When Henry Tudor won the crown of England he "wasn't meant to sit the throne".
The truth is the Targayrians were about to be overthrown when Visenya flew to Pentos and retrieved Maegor and Blackfyre, the realm would have descended into chaos, as Oldtown hoped. The Hightower, The citidel and the Starry Sept all hating on the Valyrian customs and rule of House Targaryian. It's an Andal thing.
Can't believe it's taken me this long to discover this channel. Binge watching
The Order of the Green Hand has a good theory of Tyanna being a Faith of the Seven bad faith actor due to her name coming from faith.
Basically Maegor is Visenya's Frankenstein's Monster; since Valyrian magic involved Human sacrifice the analogy still stands.
Why you do diz to me?? 🤪 You blow my mind every time. Thank you!
Wonderful video, thank you.
This was absolutely amazing.
Love this channel
Would Viserys and Danerys also be products of dark magic? Would Aerys II have been desperate to make more children as Rhaegar was his only son? Aerys II was really weird about protecting Viserys as well. Dany also had a lizard baby.....thats why i ask?
Good analysis. Thanks, Quinn.
Dunno if we can say she's not evil, if she wasn't she'd never have given him a list or manipulated him into a different course of action. But George loves playing with our expectations with what evil/good should be, as well as taking a lot of time to mention specifically that sources vary on the information in the book.
i think we need to point out that rhaegar and lyanna's baby's true name should be visenya.
Thank you so much for your videos and podcasts. I absolutely love them and your discussions and theories.. i couldn't believe my luck when I saw you also love Dune. A man after my own heart 😍😍😍
Great theory here Quinn.
Damn this dude makes some dope ass videos.
👏👏👏👏 Just a great one! 🙌😎💕💕🔥🕷🕸
Visenya and Tyanna definitely made deals Bc when he healed Visenyas health deteriorates until she dies then Maegor becomes a shell of himself and disoriented. Also this witch saved her son but it is said Visenya hated Tyanna after she became queen
I don't get why everyone thinks Aegon was infertile i think both his sons were his. Still loved this video though
Fantastic theory Quinn! 👍🏽
Weird thing at the end of this chapter in Fire and Blood; in one of the last paragraphs, it says Maegor’s reign last 6 years and 66 days...666. Why would George Martin included this specific number? Is this considered breaking the 4th wall? Thoughts?
I see it more as an indicator of some "evil" or nefarious actions behind the scene yet to be revealed. That triple 6 is too cheeky to not lead to something later
There is NO Devil in the world ice and fire.
He references muppets else where in F&B so 666 is comparatively pretty tame.
@@sophiawilson8696 There's the Great Other.
With everyone being so monstrous and cruel, it makes it impossible to like anyone. I can't wait for a Time for Spring where Sam and Gilly discover the secret island of unicorns and kittens where fruits grow bountiful and rainbows greet everyone every morning.
Aaron Bergman boooooooo
All the poor fellows that burned made a cloud that lasted a very convenient 7 days? All the people that opposed maegor were very intricately named... But his allies are lucky to get mentioned by name (trial of 7).. Read it with the assumption that the faith amd maesters and hightowers are plotting together... And you'll see that it makes more sense.. Maegor was being treated by the maesters and as soon as they left.. Kaboom. He's better already.
And when this all failed.. They stole that girl sara to make the dance.
Im getting Varys vibes. Is it possible Varys is somehow related to the witch Tyanna? Is that in the realm of possibility? I
No.
@@balerionthedread9284
But there's certainly a strong symbolic connection
@@alanpennie8013 well they're both the Master of Whispers and they are both from the free cities so there's that. But I'm not sure what else. I'm pretty sure at this point Varys is a Blackfyre supporter, perhaps even a Blackfyre himself. Varys was a master thief and spy where as Tyanna truly seems to be a sorceress, a practitioner off black magic who speaks to spiders and rats. I think she has more in common with Bloodraven in the way that they operate. The same sort of gossip surrounds them. They both have a kind of "warging" ability. What do you see that they have in common?
@@balerionthedread9284
Tyanna speaks to spiders. Varys is one (and speaks to birds).
@@alanpennie8013 yes but she really does speak to spiders and rats. Varys just calls his informants little birds and mice.
Do you prefer asoiaf or dune more? or are they too different to compare?
They are not different, in fact they have many similarities because George Martin is a Dune fan too, and ASOIAF is really influenced by Dune.
Weak theory. Maegor was not evil, he was simply manipulated by an evil woman who took advantage of his short temper
I think when witches appear in Westerosi history we are meant to think of 'witches' from our own Middle Ages and of their false trials. Not that they are necesarilly completely analogous, but we should keep the thought in our brains.
Maegor saved house targaryen. Don't believe the lies of the andals.
Aenys Targaryen wasn't Maegor's nephew. He was his older half brother, the firstborn of Aegon the Conqueror, by his younger sister-queen Rhaenys.
Boy Tyanna and Varys sure do have a lot in common..
I don't understand this theory about Visenya getting pregnant through black magic.
I mean we have already seen that how child created through magic looks like in GOT when Melisandre gave birth to a shadow child. Now when Maegor is a full human with normal body, how is it possible?
Also if Visenya was able to create a child through magic then she could have done it just after conquest, why she waited for so long? And why just one, she could have created more than one child through that.
And when Maegor was unable to have any child then Visenya could have created a child for him as well!
Fascinating theory !
just a logistics q: was tyanna the original mistress of whisper? like did she originate that position? i cant remember if fire and blood had mentioned that title before Maegor's reign
Always enjoy your videos. A few things worth noting for historical context since we know GRRM loves both history and an unreliable narrator. Female village healers and midwives were often named witches because patriarchal society didn’t like women holding a special knowledge. It makes sense to me that Tyanna might fall victim to the vicious rumors of Maesters because of her superior knowledge of the healing arts. Second thing to note: fucked up kiddos are often the result of incest. Men in power never wanted to think it was their issue, rather, it was the woman who must be blamed. Or a curse. Or both. Not to discount the possibility of magic. Magic is real in the books and stillborns have been used in spells. But I do think the historical context offers a bit of intrigue.
Dune: Ticia Cenva, Erasmus, Shaddam, Rev mother Lucilla... ASOIAF: Cersey, Melisandre, Robin, Gregor Clegane... I have many names, just like Arya. Thanks, I love the Targaryen and the Martel. Tyanna seems to be an interesting character, I want to know more about her.
I am waiting for the spin-off
Me too
Maegor's actions against the Faith ensured that the house Targaryen lived and ruled for years and generations to come. Enough of this Maegor smear campaign. Maegor's great.
I've been devouring your videos since I found your channel, both ASOIAF and Dune ones. both of whom i'm an avid reader. Have you read the Earthsea book series by Ursula Le Guin? I think it would be a great topic for your channel. If you haven't read it, I recommend you strongly! ;)
Maegor's just casually throwing heads at people, accusing them of being jealous witches. It's so good, but so bad.
love this
nice! pls more fire and blood videos, pls
Tyanna and Varys are awwwwwwwwfully similar ;)
Do you think that a theory on Aemond One-Eye would be cool? He’s a really cool villain in fire and blood and I think he’s rather undertalked about
Btw, you haver the smother voice ever! We love you 😍 and your fedoras
Quinn,
Check out Men of the West's video about Queen Beruthiel from the Tolkien legendarium. Tyanna reminds me of her.
Interesting parallels to magic, not being able to have children, master of whisperers, spiders and Lord Varys... History rhymes supposedly...
2:12 aenys was maegor's half brother, not nephew.
Wow, that's deep
Hi again.
Hello.
@@QuinnsIdeasIt worked!
ei could you do a video ranking the dune books , just the main ones written by frank herbert
solid theory, m8
Yes!
Woohoo!
When is part 6 of Ultimate Guide to Dune coming out?
In time my child.
I never believed that Tyanna was responsible for Maegor's infertility neither. Maegor was incapable of having children way before Tyanna set foot on King's Landing. Instead of facing the fact that the problem was with him and not with the women, he makes up this whole tale and blames Tyanna. But I never connected Visenya to these facts until now, that is a pretty wit guess, thanks for sharing that!
Tyanna and his first wife were barren it was not Maegor fault.
Maegor being a magic baby makes sense
Maegor sounds interesting