I don't really understand the complaint of "What do I even use this card for in non-Commander". As long as it's not taking up pack space for Standard-legal packs, for example, who cares?
@Daz1One he is questioning the validity of the card due to its single format use (Commander) hence his "we're taking it too far" comment. It's a common theme with creators that complain about commander having cards "made" for it. This card is one of the least egregious cards BECAUSE it was in a commander precon. I get complaining about commander only cards in MH3, but this complaint is just being in his feelings.
@@paulb2399 I do see that now. It's odd complaining that Commander cards can't be played in Vintage/Legacy. How many people still play those formats anyway? There are quite a lot of cards that don't work outside of Commander, so Stinging Study isn't that egregious.
36:42 I think what they mean is by default you "ramp" a land every turn (your land drop) so if you're missing land drops you paid for something which you could do for free by just playing more lands.
I think that a better way to put it is that non-CEDH Commander players need to pay better attention to their mana curves and the mana needs of their deck. You can't run 33 lands and pack your deck full of 5, 6, and 7 drops and expect it to function even at the most casual of tables. If you play CEDH, then obviously you are probably paying a lot more attention to your curve AND actively reducing it so that you are playing only the most cost efficient options, so 33 lands might work because your deck is full of 1, 2, and 3-drops. If that is the case, ignore the rest of this post. My minimum go-to formula was 36 lands plus Mana Crypt plus Sol Ring (which is now 37 lands plus Sol Ring), plus at least 6 early plays in the 1-2 mana range that can either dig for lands or directly tutor for them. This can be mana rocks such as Signets, 2-mana green ramp (Rampant Growth, Three Visits, Nature's Lore, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farseek, Into the North is a good example), 1-2 mana card draw/filtering (Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Preordain, Ponder, Chart a Course, See Beyond for mono blue for example). This generally allowed me enough mana sources to get moving in the early game and avoid too many mulligans, yet leave plenty of space in the deck for gas and "fun" cards. After playing the deck a few times, I would adjust up as necessary but very rarely would I adjust down. On top of this though, I'm also making sure that the deck's mana curve isn't too high. If it does skew higher, then I try and add more lands AND more ways to ramp. This is especially true if the Commander is expensive or the deck's theme necessitates a higher curve. This is a bigger topic than can be covered by a RUclips comment, but so many things go into this such as building your curve around your Commander, including late-game mana sinks, the effect of Fetchlands, Cycling Lands, ramp cards, or DFC lands, etc. The essence of it is that the land count is only one aspect of the deck, and a proper number of lands can't really be figured out in a vacuum without taking other deck aspects into account.
I have recently been adding up to 40-43 lands in non green decks simply to (next to never) miss a land drop. I can safely cut lands if i feel i can cut some without ruining my deck. And always add amulet of vigor and tiller engine to have my lands enter untapped
You should really check out rebell lily's video that she put out recently on this topic. It would blow your mind how many lands people should probably actually be running.
I typically play 36 - 37 lands with some of them being MDFCs. So I can play them as lands when I need a land or I can play them as spells when I don't need lands. Also, with a couple of my decks I'll play the Ravnica bounce lands so I can bounce one of the MDFC's back to my hand if I want to use the spell part.
Cantrip coefficient is a great term, since 'draw 1' printed on X cards does not have the same gameplay as 'draw X' printed on one card. Let's use Grull decks as an example: One version has a hand of Courser of Kruphix, Slice in Twain, and Geomancer's Gambit. The other has Harmonize, Krosan Grip and Molten Rain. Both have 4 mana available and have a 4-land pocket they don't know about. The Harmonize hand clears it in one turn while keeping its other two spells for a better time. The other spends minimum 2 turns and one interaction piece. Yes, both draw 4 cards over two turns, but these situations are not the same.
I do not have a consistent number, it heavily depends on the archetype. “Idealized win speed” is the metric I use (lands deck excluded) Yidris Storm 27 Marisi tokens 32 +2 mdfc Brallin/Shabraz cycling 36 +1mdfc Sultai Ghonti theft 37 Lands 44 +4 mdfc
@ I am going to be honest with you, I hate MDFC’s and don’t use them unless they closely fit the theme of my decks. They feel like the coward’s way out when I could just take the time to figure out a real mana base. Also, i personally have a vendetta against flip cards. I do not want to unsleeve my card, flip it over, and sleeve it up again. And then forget to do that before next game and forget the exact wording on the front. And then have to (not very slyly) flip it back over and then the whole table knows what I’ve got. It’s a hassle that I am willing to lose a few games to not deal with.
Concerning the cantrip coefficient: storm decks and their ilk care more about the top of their library because they have fewer high impact spells. Instead, they make their impact via a mass of individually inoffensive cards. Jiora needs to play about six historical spells to match the effect of one Rishkar’s Expertise.
Pretty rare that I go below 39. I agree with them on the large card draw angle, and I want to hit a land on every one of my turns without fighting for it.
@@tenshiumi9299 I do plenty of my own Feel free to watch it, give it a like, comment and share! Reacting grows the channel, gotta do what I gotta do :)
@@ThatMillGuyShaf I'm gona take this rare opportunity of direct communication to, first of all, thank u for that content. I do share your short from time to time with my LGS whatsapp group and we all like them. That said, maybe I didn't watch enough of your longer videos, I don't think that reaction was all u are doing, I just got the impression (from what I saw lately on my YT feed) that this was the 3rd or 4th video where you react to Salubrious Snail and even if it grows the channel it feels a bit... (how do I say this without been an Ahole) ... sketchy? Anyway, maybe i'm just wrong, thanks for the answer!
@@tenshiumi9299 honestly I do a fair amount of react style content, I've been posting regularly since July and at some point you run out of raw new ideas and must engage with community ideas (Reddit posts are great for this) I've still made a ton of metagame breakdowns, card highlights etc. and since December have committed to 3-4 leagues posted a week Specifically with snail, I believe I've only reacted to him only 1-2 times before over the past 6 months! In general, there is probably more react content on the channel in the last 6 months vs not (i.e. videos or reacting to tweets/Reddit posts) but I try my best to add more context atleast witth the posts/tweets, a little bit harder with the videos I have to admit it is slop, it's just very disheartening when all the net new, original content over the last month gets way less views than the react content does At the end of the day, I have to get views to justify the content :/ I appreciate the kind words and taking the time to have a good back and forth, hope you have a great day! 💯❤️
30-33 lands in all my casual decks. I play card draw and all the signets and talismans, plus felwar stone so by turn 4 i domt want to draw anymore lands
Stinging Study is my jam in Shirei. Six cards, six life, and in mono black the mana isn't a big deal. But in legacy/vintage? It specifically asks about your commander, I don't think it does anything there.
considering you start with a guaranteed spell (or two if partners) in your hand that resets if answered means you basically never get punished for making land drops. I don't think it's even unreasonable to play as many as 50 mana sources in a lot of decks even at pretty high power levels.
the thing is that if your deck wants to get benefits from dropping lands or your deck has a lot of 3 or 4+ drops, YOU WANT 40+ LANDS. I play a lot of green ramp decks and not having a land to trigger landfall or to leave mana up for interaction after i cast a big spell is always a detriment. It feels really bad to have a bunch of dudes with landfall triggers and not draw a single land for 2+ turns.
Just built a mono green, X matters, hydra deck with 40 lands. Works pretty well IMO, but I'm thinking of pulling some of those lands to help make the deck run a little more consistently.
i've been running for a month and a half the Mossborn hydra on MTG Arena... with 16 fetch lands (to get 5 each time i cvast omenpath) to get 2 lands per turn enter with the fetch lkand... easy thing. SO overpowererd; i broke the MTG arenacounter. It stops at 1.07 billion +1/+1 counters. the hydra can't go bigger. hit once the opponent clean with a "can'T be blocked" at that max count, my landfall failed to trigger 4-6 additional times after that imagine !
@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914 I use Nissa, Who Shakes the World in my deck. I run Vorinclex, Monsterous Raider as my commander. I have yet to get get all my lands out with Mossborn Hydra on the field, but I've been able to get Mossborn over 8k for both power and toughness 😂
@@blinkspot2667 yup mate! it's fun heh? "Awaken the woods" Pay X + some gren to get X dryads that are land creatures? yup the hydra sprints. Check my video about that hydra you will see XD funy times
I like to run 37 as a general baseline, but it depends. If it's one color or there's a lot of land ramp I may run less lands but more colors or budget I may run more lands
It's that time again, every content creator doing bad takes on how many lands to run. I don't really have a take except I watched the Snail vid and like 80% of his stuff I totally disagree. Draw/card selection is way more important than running whatever magic number someone comes up with. 42,40,38,36 all seem like too much if you've built your deck with enough draw and card selection. There's an incredible amount of efficient draw engines in MTG and instead of loading up on lands and discarding them, you can be pitching worth while cards into the yard instead of your flooded lands for re-animation or other graveyard strategies when you inevitably get flooded.
Between 31-33 at most. I hate topdecking lands mid game. I typically play about 12-14 ramp effects. This formula has served me very well for quite some time. I also play cycling lands and MDFC lands so if I topdeck lands at least they do something.
Im 35-36 lands with 10-12 mana rocks with cmc 2 or less. My cedh goes between 28-31 counting the mdfc based on the amount of 0 drop rocks and 2 drop rocks as well
@@tylerstegman6846 cedh I would say is a completely different story but for normal decks everything under 35 is way to low. Actually I dont have a Deck below 37 lands because I dont think less lands is good.
Why does the amount of mana rocks matter for land count? Isn't the goal of every deck to ramp and make a land drop? Otherwise you just paid mana to make a shitty artifact land
I've played snail's Radah deck, and I honestly feel like it needs more lands. I just built a deck with 48 lands (including lands that don't tap for mana, I think there's 6-8) and 14 MDFCs. After a few games, I've already realized that I either need to cut MDFCs for more ramp and lands or cut a few lands for cascade cards. (The best land-ramp are X-costs which interfere with cascade). I genuinely don't know how to build a deck I'd enjoy with so few lands as 35.
I have a landfall deck with 55 lands. I have an eggs combo deck with 32 lands. They both function reasonably with those land counts, so the only conclusion I've come up with based on my personal experience is "start with 37 and test from there, but if it's a lands strategy start with 45 instead."
My green and white group hug deck has so much ramp for the entire table (more ramp than actual lands) that I get away with 26 regular lands and then a couple flip ones and I have a 5 color "beat your face with lands" deck that has 45 lands and having that many feels about right.
35 lands gives you over a 75% chance to draw 3 lands by turn 3. 37 lands gives you over an 80% to draw 3 lands by then. I think turn 3 is a good place to make sure you have enough lands to get to naturally, since a lot of good draw cards cost 3 mana (Morbid Opportunist, Welcoming Vampire, Garruk's Uprising, Diresight, etc). In my Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer deck, I only have 34 lands, which gives me over an 88% chance to get at least two lands by turn 2, which is when I usually play one of my 11 two mana or less looters. Then the extra card still gets me over 80% to find that third land turn 3. Edit: Actually, I came up with 34 because it still gives me an 80% chance to get the third land drop, assuming I use the looter at the start of turn 3 to get the extra card.
I usually play 33 to 35 lands, but I run a lot of ramp and low cost rocks and mana dorks. I like to hit the gas and try to get my bigger spells and colors fixed ASAP.
I'm one of those weirdos who rarely ever plays no green in my deck so my rule is 33 Lands, and the deck needs to be comfortable with most one green opening hands. Other types of decks I may go as high as 35 but I usually run enough colorless fetch or mana or card draw or all of that to make 33 work.
From what ive saw drom everything id go like 38 for aggro 42 mid and like 46~ with the cards ur actually using augment them from there. U can go higher with fetchlands because youll eat through them quicker and less if u got low cost catds and mana dorks/rocks. There's personal preference and what kinda pod ur in.
I run 36 ALWAYS and around 40 if my curve is stupidly high. I only do 36 minimum if my commander is either a massive mana dork or a ramp piece like Helga or Hakbal. 38/40 is usually my go-to
Saying you had to pay for the land drop is such a weird take for me. The ultimate goal with playing ramp IMO is to thin out your deck while ensuring that you have the lands you need to play what you need to play/top deck.
Depends on curve/how much card draw and fast mana my deck has. I have had decks as low as 26 but my average deck has 35, ill do 36+ if the landbase is tapped and 40+ if im doing landfall.
I usually run 35. Combined with a few mana rocks and some decent card draw, and (unless you draw a terrible hand, everyone does) my decks usually run just fine
I play 37-42 Lands. Yes I love grern and ramping and having enough lands. I dont understand people running below 37 lands they always have trouble hitting their land drops and bad game experiences because of that.
I’m a strong 30-35 depending on the power/archetype I’m going for… like obviously for like a landfall deck it’s gonna be 38-42 but otherwise it very much depends on where I’m going with the deck and optimizations
For me its usually 33ish max, but also want to mention a dude I play with is around 45-50 depending on the deck. This with the caviot that he refuses to mulligan ever for the bit
i'm for 35-38 lands, only play casual slow decks with friends and we allow as many mulligans as we want if i need a lot of mana, i just play 4-6 double-land-grab green sorceries like cultivate or explosive vegetation
I play 30-40 40 in landfall. 36 in 6+ cmc commanders. 34 in every other deck deck. 30 in 3-cmc commanders. I flood every time and wish I could cut more lands for more game pieces that actively move my game forward i.e synergy or good stuff
It feels like people want to find a way to use maths to avoid having to work out the answer through experience. You won't get it right first time. The #1 most important thing is to play your deck, a lot.
As someone who's tried everything from 34 to 40+, you brick on mana pretty much the same amount in my experience. Math never maths exactly right in real life.
I run 33 in a black and white vamp/angel/cleric deck. I run land tax and 3 creatures that can find me lands as well as three tutors. My average cost is 3mana
35 in Shorikai and Yenna and usually 36 in mono color, 37 in two colors and 38 in three colors. We only play buget deck, so no expensive duals or trioms.
Commander players have this weird mentality like having to pay for mana drops is a good thing. I'm looking at you green players with 32 lands and a giant artifact and sorcery ramp package. I'd rather not have half of my deck dedicated to my mana base. 36-38 land, and I only run arcane signet, sol ring, mind stone, and fellwar stone as rocks in most decks. Replace all of thise excess rocks and sorcery ramps with CARD POSITIVE DRAW and you'll be amazed with the results.
Personally, it matters what kind of deck I build. For my Mr. House deck, I play around 34-35 but thats because Mr. House is a treasure deck. For my Omo deck, its like 42 or so
But my rule of thumb is start with a 33/33/33 split with 33 creatures ,33 non creature, 33 lands and then adjust from there based on strategy and mana curve.
40%. honestly, is a bare minimum I think after watching more of your video... under that you better have protection to stop removal of your mana rocks and dorks...
A deck that wants to draw a bunch of cards at once one at a time is combo? What are you even saying. Sometimes i just want 10 wolves. Snail is talking about decks That can access the next card So readily that their main priority is that the next card they draw is always gas the can use right away. Consider, for example, a deck full of cheap creatures And several tribute to the world tree effects That just keeps putting stuff on the board until they hit lands. When x draw, do x constantly, gas draw gas draw oops got a land swing is not combo, and neither is a deck that has a sorcery that draws 7 but perhaps not enough draw
running about a thousand+ (1400) games in a month on MTG arena I got to say : 69 cards, go 30, 75 cards ? 33 maybe 35... so yeah i image 40 is basic for a 100cards deck ... or do you "casual" ???? Cuz i wanna get to mythic in MTG arena every month... so yeah LANDS can get me wins.
@@cread13 Agree with you 100%. Decks should be constructed to be the best they can for a given archetype or goal. To do otherwise invites spite, bad blood, and arms races.
@Mandalorian_Spy ya building for a personal meta just makes for an overall pore experience. In that meta your seen as the person meta gaming always trying to one up or have the answer to specific people's decks and outside that meta your just dead in the water often with lots of cards that do little to nothing because they are niche answers that are dead cards outside of that personal meta. It's always a better option to build a deck to do it's things and then add in generaly good interaction that either compliments the deck or just functions well no matter the opponents strategy. As an example instead of running direct creature removal and enchantment/artifact removal. A lot of the time I'll just run cards that deal with any or most permanent over a specific type of permanent if I have the option to do so. Stuff like putrefy, mortify, beast within, generous gift, etc. Also slightly off topic but because u mentioned armes race it reminded me of why I dont like proxies of cards u dont own. They always lead to that situation where people keep uping the power level of things using the excuse of "since they are proxying x y or z I'm gonna proxy a b and c" which just leads to extreme nonsense and boring games where people just play copy paste meta builds instead of creative personal lists.
It depends on your definition of low power I guess. I've built a variation of that Radha deck, and while it can put some pretty serious threats on board early, the deck generally doesn't win particularly quickly. It also has little to no cheap or instant speed interaction, so it can really struggle with combo decks, or decks that accrue advantage with non creature spells.
I disagreed with that video's conclusion, but while still fully supporting the findings: Commander players don't really need more lands, what they need is to significantly reduce their mana curve and actually cast meaningful stuff the first 4 turns of the game. In other words is that rule of thumb is this: If you're not producing infinite mana you should cut most above 3 CMC cost and definitively anything above CMC 4. Personal preference of course but sometimes it's nice to finish a commander game by turn 5-6 instead of literally losing your will to live after the 4th board wipe. So everything Mr. Snail said was accurate yet more people should be less weary of playing combos, faster ramp and ways to close out a game faster instead of planning to go on to cast 8 different 6 CMC or higher Dragons or Angels.
That's a bit extreme, but I do agree with you. I don't like how long games go, and more often than not that 4th boardwipe does come along and it's MISERABLE. I run a Jetmir, Nexus of Revels deck with a lower curve and it can win by my turn 5 in one swing. I say end the goddamn game so we can switch decks or just play again lol
Stinging Study wasn't meant to be used in anything outside of commander...hence it only being printed once in a commander precon.
Yeah, it was printed in the Commander 2021 precons. Pact of the Serpent was another Black draw spell only found in precons
I don't really understand the complaint of "What do I even use this card for in non-Commander". As long as it's not taking up pack space for Standard-legal packs, for example, who cares?
He was wondering if there is a way to use it in a corner case. Like he said with Jeweled Lotus and Doubling Cube working in Vintage.
@Daz1One he is questioning the validity of the card due to its single format use (Commander) hence his "we're taking it too far" comment. It's a common theme with creators that complain about commander having cards "made" for it. This card is one of the least egregious cards BECAUSE it was in a commander precon. I get complaining about commander only cards in MH3, but this complaint is just being in his feelings.
@@paulb2399 I do see that now. It's odd complaining that Commander cards can't be played in Vintage/Legacy. How many people still play those formats anyway?
There are quite a lot of cards that don't work outside of Commander, so Stinging Study isn't that egregious.
The crossover the people needed to see. Love Salubrious Snail and his ideas on land bases have revolutionized my deckbuilding.
36:42 I think what they mean is by default you "ramp" a land every turn (your land drop) so if you're missing land drops you paid for something which you could do for free by just playing more lands.
I think that a better way to put it is that non-CEDH Commander players need to pay better attention to their mana curves and the mana needs of their deck. You can't run 33 lands and pack your deck full of 5, 6, and 7 drops and expect it to function even at the most casual of tables.
If you play CEDH, then obviously you are probably paying a lot more attention to your curve AND actively reducing it so that you are playing only the most cost efficient options, so 33 lands might work because your deck is full of 1, 2, and 3-drops. If that is the case, ignore the rest of this post.
My minimum go-to formula was 36 lands plus Mana Crypt plus Sol Ring (which is now 37 lands plus Sol Ring), plus at least 6 early plays in the 1-2 mana range that can either dig for lands or directly tutor for them. This can be mana rocks such as Signets, 2-mana green ramp (Rampant Growth, Three Visits, Nature's Lore, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Farseek, Into the North is a good example), 1-2 mana card draw/filtering (Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Preordain, Ponder, Chart a Course, See Beyond for mono blue for example). This generally allowed me enough mana sources to get moving in the early game and avoid too many mulligans, yet leave plenty of space in the deck for gas and "fun" cards. After playing the deck a few times, I would adjust up as necessary but very rarely would I adjust down.
On top of this though, I'm also making sure that the deck's mana curve isn't too high. If it does skew higher, then I try and add more lands AND more ways to ramp. This is especially true if the Commander is expensive or the deck's theme necessitates a higher curve. This is a bigger topic than can be covered by a RUclips comment, but so many things go into this such as building your curve around your Commander, including late-game mana sinks, the effect of Fetchlands, Cycling Lands, ramp cards, or DFC lands, etc.
The essence of it is that the land count is only one aspect of the deck, and a proper number of lands can't really be figured out in a vacuum without taking other deck aspects into account.
Cedh decks regularly play 27 thirty three is a green cedh deck lol
@@Naustrix My K'rrik deck runs 33 lands. Even with the rituals and rocks it can run. I think most decks I run into at least at my lgs run around 30.
I don't go below 38 without a reason. I HATE missing land drops.
Edit: If landfall or big spells is a theme in the deck, I move towards 42 to 45.
I have recently been adding up to 40-43 lands in non green decks simply to (next to never) miss a land drop. I can safely cut lands if i feel i can cut some without ruining my deck. And always add amulet of vigor and tiller engine to have my lands enter untapped
You da 🐐
People call me crazy for running 31 lands in my Alesha deck, but it's not like I ever need more than five lands!
A whole video talking about mana curve, and people are still commenting "I always run X number of lands in every deck and never have a problem"
You should really check out rebell lily's video that she put out recently on this topic. It would blow your mind how many lands people should probably actually be running.
@@animeentranced1130 I'll give it a watch!
I typically play 36 - 37 lands with some of them being MDFCs. So I can play them as lands when I need a land or I can play them as spells when I don't need lands.
Also, with a couple of my decks I'll play the Ravnica bounce lands so I can bounce one of the MDFC's back to my hand if I want to use the spell part.
I've been putting guildless commons into my 2 color decks for this reason
I’m a 30 to 33 kinda guy. Never have issues. I just shuffle a lot and mulligan properly.
Cantrip coefficient is a great term, since 'draw 1' printed on X cards does not have the same gameplay as 'draw X' printed on one card. Let's use Grull decks as an example: One version has a hand of Courser of Kruphix, Slice in Twain, and Geomancer's Gambit. The other has Harmonize, Krosan Grip and Molten Rain. Both have 4 mana available and have a 4-land pocket they don't know about. The Harmonize hand clears it in one turn while keeping its other two spells for a better time. The other spends minimum 2 turns and one interaction piece. Yes, both draw 4 cards over two turns, but these situations are not the same.
With better n better lands, you will play more lands. Especially since players don't run Land removal, especially mass land removal.
I do not have a consistent number, it heavily depends on the archetype. “Idealized win speed” is the metric I use (lands deck excluded)
Yidris Storm 27
Marisi tokens 32 +2 mdfc
Brallin/Shabraz cycling 36 +1mdfc
Sultai Ghonti theft 37
Lands 44 +4 mdfc
Seems kinda low on MDFC counts. Outside of the 4C deck I'd definitely look to swap out 1 or 2 removal spells in your decks for MDFC removal
@ I am going to be honest with you, I hate MDFC’s and don’t use them unless they closely fit the theme of my decks. They feel like the coward’s way out when I could just take the time to figure out a real mana base. Also, i personally have a vendetta against flip cards. I do not want to unsleeve my card, flip it over, and sleeve it up again. And then forget to do that before next game and forget the exact wording on the front. And then have to (not very slyly) flip it back over and then the whole table knows what I’ve got. It’s a hassle that I am willing to lose a few games to not deal with.
Concerning the cantrip coefficient: storm decks and their ilk care more about the top of their library because they have fewer high impact spells. Instead, they make their impact via a mass of individually inoffensive cards. Jiora needs to play about six historical spells to match the effect of one Rishkar’s Expertise.
I am a 36-38. I love big spells and have to make sure i get a good start with my ramp or draw
I always run 36 and if land hitting becomes an issue that is usually a sign I need more card draw to hit my land drops
@dongdoodler same. I just cheat a bit by using a few flip lands and count them as lands themselves
Pretty rare that I go below 39. I agree with them on the large card draw angle, and I want to hit a land on every one of my turns without fighting for it.
My guy, u are a good content creator (your shorts are awesome) please dont go start just reacting to other ppls content and do your own
@@tenshiumi9299 I do plenty of my own
Feel free to watch it, give it a like, comment and share!
Reacting grows the channel, gotta do what I gotta do :)
This feels more like engaging in community discourse.
@@ThatMillGuyShaf I'm gona take this rare opportunity of direct communication to, first of all, thank u for that content. I do share your short from time to time with my LGS whatsapp group and we all like them.
That said, maybe I didn't watch enough of your longer videos, I don't think that reaction was all u are doing, I just got the impression (from what I saw lately on my YT feed) that this was the 3rd or 4th video where you react to Salubrious Snail and even if it grows the channel it feels a bit... (how do I say this without been an Ahole) ... sketchy? Anyway, maybe i'm just wrong, thanks for the answer!
@@powarless Yes, maybe it is!
@@tenshiumi9299 honestly I do a fair amount of react style content, I've been posting regularly since July and at some point you run out of raw new ideas and must engage with community ideas (Reddit posts are great for this)
I've still made a ton of metagame breakdowns, card highlights etc. and since December have committed to 3-4 leagues posted a week
Specifically with snail, I believe I've only reacted to him only 1-2 times before over the past 6 months!
In general, there is probably more react content on the channel in the last 6 months vs not (i.e. videos or reacting to tweets/Reddit posts) but I try my best to add more context atleast witth the posts/tweets, a little bit harder with the videos
I have to admit it is slop, it's just very disheartening when all the net new, original content over the last month gets way less views than the react content does
At the end of the day, I have to get views to justify the content :/
I appreciate the kind words and taking the time to have a good back and forth, hope you have a great day! 💯❤️
30-33 lands in all my casual decks. I play card draw and all the signets and talismans, plus felwar stone so by turn 4 i domt want to draw anymore lands
Stinging Study is my jam in Shirei. Six cards, six life, and in mono black the mana isn't a big deal. But in legacy/vintage? It specifically asks about your commander, I don't think it does anything there.
considering you start with a guaranteed spell (or two if partners) in your hand that resets if answered means you basically never get punished for making land drops. I don't think it's even unreasonable to play as many as 50 mana sources in a lot of decks even at pretty high power levels.
the thing is that if your deck wants to get benefits from dropping lands or your deck has a lot of 3 or 4+ drops, YOU WANT 40+ LANDS. I play a lot of green ramp decks and not having a land to trigger landfall or to leave mana up for interaction after i cast a big spell is always a detriment. It feels really bad to have a bunch of dudes with landfall triggers and not draw a single land for 2+ turns.
Just built a mono green, X matters, hydra deck with 40 lands. Works pretty well IMO, but I'm thinking of pulling some of those lands to help make the deck run a little more consistently.
i've been running for a month and a half the Mossborn hydra on MTG Arena... with 16 fetch lands (to get 5 each time i cvast omenpath) to get 2 lands per turn enter with the fetch lkand... easy thing. SO overpowererd; i broke the MTG arenacounter. It stops at 1.07 billion +1/+1 counters. the hydra can't go bigger. hit once the opponent clean with a "can'T be blocked" at that max count, my landfall failed to trigger 4-6 additional times after that imagine !
@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914 I use Nissa, Who Shakes the World in my deck. I run Vorinclex, Monsterous Raider as my commander. I have yet to get get all my lands out with Mossborn Hydra on the field, but I've been able to get Mossborn over 8k for both power and toughness 😂
@@blinkspot2667 yup mate! it's fun heh? "Awaken the woods" Pay X + some gren to get X dryads that are land creatures? yup the hydra sprints. Check my video about that hydra you will see XD funy times
@@blinkspot2667 literally got all my basic lands out (20 i think...) and omen path journey's fetch lands could not fetch lands anymore XD
@@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914 I believe it! That sounds like it would have been awesome to witness! 😂
I like to run 37 as a general baseline, but it depends. If it's one color or there's a lot of land ramp I may run less lands but more colors or budget I may run more lands
It's that time again, every content creator doing bad takes on how many lands to run. I don't really have a take except I watched the Snail vid and like 80% of his stuff I totally disagree.
Draw/card selection is way more important than running whatever magic number someone comes up with. 42,40,38,36 all seem like too much if you've built your deck with enough draw and card selection. There's an incredible amount of efficient draw engines in MTG and instead of loading up on lands and discarding them, you can be pitching worth while cards into the yard instead of your flooded lands for re-animation or other graveyard strategies when you inevitably get flooded.
Between 31-33 at most. I hate topdecking lands mid game. I typically play about 12-14 ramp effects. This formula has served me very well for quite some time. I also play cycling lands and MDFC lands so if I topdeck lands at least they do something.
My general rule is lands plus ramp (rocks and land fetch) is no less than 48
Looking at my decks right now it looks like I'm running from 25 to 27 lands. Now the decks I have are cEDH so low land counts are kind of the norm.
yesssss salubrious snail is the goat
I built that Rada deck. Not card for card, but in spirit. It’s absolutely fantastic and a blast to play.
My decks range from 16 to 25 at the most.
Im 35-36 lands with 10-12 mana rocks with cmc 2 or less. My cedh goes between 28-31 counting the mdfc based on the amount of 0 drop rocks and 2 drop rocks as well
@@tylerstegman6846 cedh I would say is a completely different story but for normal decks everything under 35 is way to low. Actually I dont have a Deck below 37 lands because I dont think less lands is good.
Why does the amount of mana rocks matter for land count? Isn't the goal of every deck to ramp and make a land drop? Otherwise you just paid mana to make a shitty artifact land
We should have cards specifically printed for commander, it is more popular than any other way to play magic.
@@benjamingerry1752 there are lots of cards specifically printed for commander--i.e. deflecting swat and the cycle of cards it's in
land count should depend on how proficient one is at shuffling and how lenient the playgroup is about free mulligans
Every Mulligan in free in my casual games
@@tspin5642 you should probably play fewer lands
I always run 39 in casual. None of my decks have mana problems. In cEDH, 29 plus MDFCs because all three of my cEDH decks have a very low curve.
I've played snail's Radah deck, and I honestly feel like it needs more lands. I just built a deck with 48 lands (including lands that don't tap for mana, I think there's 6-8) and 14 MDFCs. After a few games, I've already realized that I either need to cut MDFCs for more ramp and lands or cut a few lands for cascade cards. (The best land-ramp are X-costs which interfere with cascade). I genuinely don't know how to build a deck I'd enjoy with so few lands as 35.
I have a landfall deck with 55 lands. I have an eggs combo deck with 32 lands. They both function reasonably with those land counts, so the only conclusion I've come up with based on my personal experience is "start with 37 and test from there, but if it's a lands strategy start with 45 instead."
26-29 lands (including mdfcs) and efficient draw power... Ramp and mulligan mentality will do wonders.
You only play cedh?
My green and white group hug deck has so much ramp for the entire table (more ramp than actual lands) that I get away with 26 regular lands and then a couple flip ones and I have a 5 color "beat your face with lands" deck that has 45 lands and having that many feels about right.
35 lands gives you over a 75% chance to draw 3 lands by turn 3.
37 lands gives you over an 80% to draw 3 lands by then.
I think turn 3 is a good place to make sure you have enough lands to get to naturally, since a lot of good draw cards cost 3 mana (Morbid Opportunist, Welcoming Vampire, Garruk's Uprising, Diresight, etc).
In my Oskar, Rubbish Reclaimer deck, I only have 34 lands, which gives me over an 88% chance to get at least two lands by turn 2, which is when I usually play one of my 11 two mana or less looters. Then the extra card still gets me over 80% to find that third land turn 3.
Edit: Actually, I came up with 34 because it still gives me an 80% chance to get the third land drop, assuming I use the looter at the start of turn 3 to get the extra card.
I usually play 33 to 35 lands, but I run a lot of ramp and low cost rocks and mana dorks. I like to hit the gas and try to get my bigger spells and colors fixed ASAP.
13:52 would it be that bad? You just play a land and ramp again next turn seems like a pretty average spell pierce to me
Ima 30 lands guy
I’m a 37 land guy myself
I’m a heathen who usually runs 33, though I do have a couple decks that run 35
99 lands. 1 wincon.
38-40 lands are like my baseline target, but also i love running maybe an excess of fetch and ramp
I've recently changed my standards to 36 hard lands and MDFCs as my curve needs
I'm one of those weirdos who rarely ever plays no green in my deck so my rule is 33 Lands, and the deck needs to be comfortable with most one green opening hands. Other types of decks I may go as high as 35 but I usually run enough colorless fetch or mana or card draw or all of that to make 33 work.
From what ive saw drom everything id go like 38 for aggro 42 mid and like 46~ with the cards ur actually using augment them from there. U can go higher with fetchlands because youll eat through them quicker and less if u got low cost catds and mana dorks/rocks. There's personal preference and what kinda pod ur in.
I run 36 ALWAYS and around 40 if my curve is stupidly high. I only do 36 minimum if my commander is either a massive mana dork or a ramp piece like Helga or Hakbal. 38/40 is usually my go-to
I usually follow 34-37 as a standard with room to adjust depending on the deck,
Saying you had to pay for the land drop is such a weird take for me. The ultimate goal with playing ramp IMO is to thin out your deck while ensuring that you have the lands you need to play what you need to play/top deck.
Depends on curve/how much card draw and fast mana my deck has. I have had decks as low as 26 but my average deck has 35, ill do 36+ if the landbase is tapped and 40+ if im doing landfall.
I usually run 35. Combined with a few mana rocks and some decent card draw, and (unless you draw a terrible hand, everyone does) my decks usually run just fine
The answer is always "more then I have, but I can't bring myself to cut another card"
I play 37-42 Lands. Yes I love grern and ramping and having enough lands. I dont understand people running below 37 lands they always have trouble hitting their land drops and bad game experiences because of that.
I don’t struggle to play lands beacuse I understand how to proberly mulagan and also play at least 10 ramp in every deck
A land is ramp that costs 0 mana
24 Lands , I'm playing CEDH and I curve out at 3
noone cares about cedh completely differnt , does not apply
I typically run 34-37. I do have a Dina Soulsteeper cEDH with 28.
I’m a strong 30-35 depending on the power/archetype I’m going for… like obviously for like a landfall deck it’s gonna be 38-42 but otherwise it very much depends on where I’m going with the deck and optimizations
For me its usually 33ish max, but also want to mention a dude I play with is around 45-50 depending on the deck. This with the caviot that he refuses to mulligan ever for the bit
So he willing chooses to be a bad player? Yep that definitely sounds like some Commander stuff.
i'm for 35-38 lands, only play casual slow decks with friends and we allow as many mulligans as we want
if i need a lot of mana, i just play 4-6 double-land-grab green sorceries like cultivate or explosive vegetation
29 lands cedh
35-36 for most decks on a rough draft then usually i try to add more through mdfc and utility lands specific for the deck
I play 30-40
40 in landfall.
36 in 6+ cmc commanders.
34 in every other deck deck.
30 in 3-cmc commanders.
I flood every time and wish I could cut more lands for more game pieces that actively move my game forward i.e synergy or good stuff
On average I play at the least 36 in each deck with some rare exceptions like my lands matter deck having 40 and my elf ball having 30.
It feels like people want to find a way to use maths to avoid having to work out the answer through experience. You won't get it right first time. The #1 most important thing is to play your deck, a lot.
As someone who's tried everything from 34 to 40+, you brick on mana pretty much the same amount in my experience. Math never maths exactly right in real life.
34 in my super low to the ground aggressive decks. 36 or 37 in most decks. 39 or 40 in my landfall decks
29 lands in every deck.
With 50+ decks
My Zhulodok, Be’lakor, & Miirym, Necrobloom are 31-32 lands.
My Kinnan deck plays 27.
My Rog Si plays 23
I run about 40 lands. Less if the deck is crammed full of cantrips, no fewer than 37. I love cycling lands.
I run 33 in a black and white vamp/angel/cleric deck. I run land tax and 3 creatures that can find me lands as well as three tutors. My average cost is 3mana
I run 1 mana rock and no sol ring
35 in Shorikai and Yenna and usually 36 in mono color, 37 in two colors and 38 in three colors. We only play buget deck, so no expensive duals or trioms.
Commander players have this weird mentality like having to pay for mana drops is a good thing. I'm looking at you green players with 32 lands and a giant artifact and sorcery ramp package.
I'd rather not have half of my deck dedicated to my mana base. 36-38 land, and I only run arcane signet, sol ring, mind stone, and fellwar stone as rocks in most decks. Replace all of thise excess rocks and sorcery ramps with CARD POSITIVE DRAW and you'll be amazed with the results.
thats not enough ramp you alway want to ramp in commander thats too slow
Personally, it matters what kind of deck I build. For my Mr. House deck, I play around 34-35 but thats because Mr. House is a treasure deck. For my Omo deck, its like 42 or so
I begin at 38 lands but I play low to the ground and I have a lot of cantrip and 2 mana draw
My mono green deck of which has an average cmc of 6 only runs 32 lands but it’s also got 20 ramp cards so…
But my rule of thumb is start with a 33/33/33 split with 33 creatures ,33 non creature, 33 lands and then adjust from there based on strategy and mana curve.
see but ramp is only ramp if you play ramp AND a land, otherwise it's just paying mana for a land drop
I am the 35 (incl. MDFC) Land Guy
27-30
38 lands are the 'SAFE' level for generic deck building. Trim it down when optimizing deck with efficient ramps.
I'm a 38-40 guys. Most of my lands have alternative functions to be fair.
My favorite command has 30 lands and 6 of them don’t tap for mana😅
I'm a 48er kind of guy. I like real state
I normally play between 35~37 lands.
The only 60 card format I can see stinging study being used in is brawl
Also works in Oathbreaker
@@tylergoerlich9494 Oh for sure. I didn't know Oathbreaker was 60 card!
40%. honestly, is a bare minimum I think after watching more of your video...
under that you better have protection to stop removal of your mana rocks and dorks...
A deck that wants to draw a bunch of cards at once one at a time is combo? What are you even saying. Sometimes i just want 10 wolves. Snail is talking about decks That can access the next card So readily that their main priority is that the next card they draw is always gas the can use right away. Consider, for example, a deck full of cheap creatures And several tribute to the world tree effects That just keeps putting stuff on the board until they hit lands. When x draw, do x constantly, gas draw gas draw oops got a land swing is not combo, and neither is a deck that has a sorcery that draws 7 but perhaps not enough draw
I enjoyed RebelSons latest video on it
When I make a deck I just use 33 lands as its 1/3 the 99 card deck
running about a thousand+ (1400) games in a month on MTG arena I got to say : 69 cards, go 30,
75 cards ? 33 maybe 35... so yeah i image 40 is basic for a 100cards deck ... or do you "casual" ????
Cuz i wanna get to mythic in MTG arena every month... so yeah LANDS can get me wins.
Stinging study in something big like Emrakruel so I can play 5 Ancestral Recalls at once
30-31
I play 36-38 But a landfall deck will have at least 45 for me
38-40, minimum 36 unless my curve is insanely low
Those who don't have experience will not listen or understand, those who do don't need the advice anyway.
28:00 i hard disagree that building for general groups is the wrong way to build and that u should build for your personal meta.
@@cread13 Agree with you 100%. Decks should be constructed to be the best they can for a given archetype or goal. To do otherwise invites spite, bad blood, and arms races.
@Mandalorian_Spy ya building for a personal meta just makes for an overall pore experience. In that meta your seen as the person meta gaming always trying to one up or have the answer to specific people's decks and outside that meta your just dead in the water often with lots of cards that do little to nothing because they are niche answers that are dead cards outside of that personal meta.
It's always a better option to build a deck to do it's things and then add in generaly good interaction that either compliments the deck or just functions well no matter the opponents strategy. As an example instead of running direct creature removal and enchantment/artifact removal. A lot of the time I'll just run cards that deal with any or most permanent over a specific type of permanent if I have the option to do so. Stuff like putrefy, mortify, beast within, generous gift, etc.
Also slightly off topic but because u mentioned armes race it reminded me of why I dont like proxies of cards u dont own. They always lead to that situation where people keep uping the power level of things using the excuse of "since they are proxying x y or z I'm gonna proxy a b and c" which just leads to extreme nonsense and boring games where people just play copy paste meta builds instead of creative personal lists.
generally, my ideal number is 37.
If u don't " bolt the bird".. radha style deck will be punching u with inferno titan in turn 4...don think that is low powered
It depends on your definition of low power I guess. I've built a variation of that Radha deck, and while it can put some pretty serious threats on board early, the deck generally doesn't win particularly quickly. It also has little to no cheap or instant speed interaction, so it can really struggle with combo decks, or decks that accrue advantage with non creature spells.
@@omegagaming609i think he assigned the deck as 5 power...that is precon lvl power.. kinda of disagree
36-38 depending on how fast the deck is
I disagreed with that video's conclusion, but while still fully supporting the findings: Commander players don't really need more lands, what they need is to significantly reduce their mana curve and actually cast meaningful stuff the first 4 turns of the game. In other words is that rule of thumb is this: If you're not producing infinite mana you should cut most above 3 CMC cost and definitively anything above CMC 4.
Personal preference of course but sometimes it's nice to finish a commander game by turn 5-6 instead of literally losing your will to live after the 4th board wipe.
So everything Mr. Snail said was accurate yet more people should be less weary of playing combos, faster ramp and ways to close out a game faster instead of planning to go on to cast 8 different 6 CMC or higher Dragons or Angels.
That's a bit extreme, but I do agree with you. I don't like how long games go, and more often than not that 4th boardwipe does come along and it's MISERABLE. I run a Jetmir, Nexus of Revels deck with a lower curve and it can win by my turn 5 in one swing. I say end the goddamn game so we can switch decks or just play again lol