Man this is the issue with privacy. Cant have shit on the internet. Nothing is simple. You genuinely have to isolate every single account and aspect of your digital existence like a schizoid. Thanks for that lesson Kenny.
@Alexandru Oh boy, if you really think Signal is somewhere close to being safe or private you might aswell just dox your entire internet being right away.
Imagine a government being so afraid of protesting youths that they order a foreign police force and company to give them intel. Firstly, WTF?! Secondly, if they are so anxious, it seems like we are on the right path.
I don't know why but this is becoming so common in these 'really good' countries. Nordic countries straight up not investigating rape cases( like the exurb1a case) and also keeping strong surveillance on activists in their country. Also become a stereotype for Japan. These countries are obviously now just trying to keep a facade of low crime rates and public satisfaction and will do anything to keep it up, even if it involves causing the complete opposite. Oh yeah didn't they pass a law in Australia too that allows them to hack anyone's device for surveillance
@@manaspradhan8041 yeah, heard some shady stuff from Australia (recommend friendly jordies for AUS related content). But you're right. They try their best to keep the status quo regarding everything. Why change climate policies when you can jail the activists, why change abortion laws when you can make them even more strict so no one talks about it, why change the approach to organised crime when you can sweep it under the rug. The stagnation in every component of society except the free market (becoming some sort of alternative religion) is frightening.
and thats why i stick with this channel, even after getting laughed out of the protonmail subreddit he still didn't stop trying to educate people. i wonder what'll happen if he goes back to that subreddit to post this video.
Knowing the hive mentality of the reddit, I would guess with 99.9999% certainty that they would just do the same and protec proton until it fades into obscurity.
@@MrREALball oh sh!t your right, someone posted his vid and all they could say was how bad his thumbnail was. i dont use reddit but from an outsiders POV, these guys seem braindead.
@@definitelynotclickbait8283 it looks more like an anti-reddit than a reddit alternative. perhaps if there were posting from both sides of the political spectrum it might actually start posing as a threat to reddit.
At this point in time, I can't be convinced that the "users" on Deaddit aren't really 80 -90% chatbots, propping up a long dead fad site. I mean - Ghislaine ran reddit/news. No more needs be said.
I use the free version of Proton mail simply because it is not Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft. Proton Mail is not nor ever will be "safe". As a matter of fact, there is not a single email service in existence that is "safe". Never has been, never will be. Same thing for VPNs. If your adversary is the government, using Tor is not going to help either, if they really want you.
@@JH-jk3nm Very true, yes. No amount of tech can stop the physical force of a government/country/state who is hell bent on getting you. Better to have other tactics.
@@thefoxpine my understanding is it is E2E encrypted so long as the emails are between protonmail email domains. anything sent to yahoo google etc is not encrypted
No, it isn't. MO had a good video a few months back, with good arguments and explanations -- where conspiracy is a much more abstract, to the point of ridiculous (flat earth, vaccines, you get what I'm saying).
@@Pyoron I used to laught at that thing before, but seeing how the vaxed crowd acts right now, I'm starting to see some credibility to the causes autism thing.
Well that's problem of all internet services, that are developing over time. Take Signal for example. It was a while ago claimed as secure open source messanger, yet the compay decided to not commit updates on the Signals server and apps to github, implementing mobilecoin and soone... And by the end any tipe of distant communication in history wasn't completely private anyway (like letters that could be stolen from your mailbox...), but today it is sometimes harder to chose the lesser evil, because companies always tries to hide how their services works to the public. It's good there are "wistleblowers" like Mental Outlaw, but you should only consider the arguments and decide on your own.
@@MrHolmesCZ any company providing some type of secure service is bull, other corporations like the cia, fbi are going to do legal and illegal things to them if they don't put in a million backdoors.
@@malcontender6319 completely the opposite, person most likely to fold is the conservative righty type loser CEO, while the nerd virgin tries to protect it till the very end, till he is either kicked or killed.
In all seriousness, email as a standard is very aged and there's no point in making it secure. We should move on to newer but secure communication platforms
Problem is whichever platform you consider anonymity is still very hard, provided it is used by a large enough number of people to be of practical use. Heck if you are not careful enough the government can track you down even if you are using Tor, its getting real scary the extent to which they go.
@Alex Nezhynsky My theory is that the war on terrorism, drugs, and pedophilia (and trafficking in general) are at the point that they are dog whistles and ruses to strip people of their civil liberties, in the sense that they are constantly used as scapegoats for corporations and interest groups to fuck everyone without wealth sideways. It's almost always never used in good faith, and despite these restrictions on things, these issues have never died down. It's so weird seeing many corpo shills butthurt about what Richard Stallman said about authorities searching through the computers of people who cross tolls.
As a network engineer and email security subject matter expert I have not once believed any of these bold claims of “no logging” and “we care about your privacy” its the trendy marketing trope that is an outright lie.
Taken from their website: ProtonMail has evolved into a global effort to protect civil liberties and build a more secure Internet Users: Press X to Doubt Protonmail: Press Y to lie
What I've learned over the years is that whenever there's a hyped up "privacy tool", it's either a straight up honeypot or just a huge glow-in-the-dark alphabet boi magnet, so you're almost always better off using some relatively obscure tech with a small and hush following. This principle has not let me down once to this day.
5:52 that's partially true. Yes, IP addresses are fundamental for the Internet Protocol to work. However, IP logging is a different thing, it means storing an IP address along with a timestamp in a DB. Once the server is done processing a request, it can throw out the address from its main memory (main memory is RAM, *not HDD,* any data deleted from RAM is permanently gone). IP logging requires data persistence, which in turn requires SSDs or HDDs for long-term preservation of data (even after deletion, because the sectors are just marked as "free space" that will be overwritten in the future). TLDR: there is no need for logging IP addresses in storage drives, but "seeing" the IPA and holding it in main memory (temporarily) is necessary
I think what he meant was it's impossible for them to not see your IP address, which means you just have to take their word for it that they're not logging you. And you can be sure any service saying they don't is lying, because even if they don't want to then government will pressure them to do it.
Even then they're still lying, they're 100% logging your IP. VPN companies purport the same lie about "not logging user activities beyond bandwidth use", yet most of those same companies cooperating with the feds have proven otherwise.
@@LilacMonarch it's why I like services that admit they can spy on you, because that sort of implies they think you are rational and not stupid and this have some respect for you.
I've seen the criticisms you made about Protonmail a little before your previous video was uploaded, and at the time the Protonmail supporters just dismissed it as fake news. But fake news nowadays simply means whatever that doesn't conform to the narrative the authorities want, so the suspicion lingered. But your video made it very clear why those criticisms are valid, and it convinced me that Protonmail (and email in general) can't be trusted. The only reason I still didn't switch though, was because there aren't really any better email alternatives afaik, outside of hosting your own email server (which I have neither the space nor money to do). But this case is just really disappointing. Trying to cover it up is a massive red flag. I'm gonna try and look for an alternative.
Same! I'm still using Protonmail for the simple reason that I would prefer Proton to have access to my emails rather than Google or something. Email is not secure, so you may as well pick the lesser of evils.
As he says in the video. If you want anonymity, you can just set up an account and use it over tor. If you want encryption, you can use PGP with any email provider. Thunderbird now implements it without the need to install further extensions. The services Protonmail offer aren't really anything new. It borders false advertising.
Remember, when cops ask companies for information they don't talk about suspected crimes. They just call you a person of interest and lean on the organization until it caves.
If you really want secrecy: 0. Tell no one at all, generate no paper trail, loose lips..... 1. Whisper it in their ear with cover noise in the background. The information is never spoken around or touches a phone or computer of any kind. 2. Use a written note, possibly coded by hand. The data should never be exposed to a computer or phone. 3. You both use air gaped computers and use an encrypted drive to move the data. The above is very secure, and only option 0 is actually secure. Its too late for me, the advertisers know my deepest desire to buy merchandise at low low prices.....
Unless you can host both ends of an internet service yourself, it will never be private. Any time a third party is involved, including the person you may be trying to contact, assume that it's possible for someone to see what you're doing. There's no such thing as "Private and Secure" email or messaging or cloud storage or anything else. If you really need something to be private, don't do it on the internet.
It's impossible to escape from governments, it's very difficult to escape from big private corporations. The only ones that you can fight against are little groups and individuals if they don't have critical breach at their disposition
I think the problem is the way they sell themselves, claiming "anonymous email account". They should make clear since day one that obviously they need the follow Swiss law, including logging IP addresses if requested. Still, I don't see better usable alternative for the average user out there.
Should their govt. rather be thankful such advocatives are there that they're at least putting an effort to stop the Alps from melting and becoming purely naked rocks?
Well, everybody wants for whatever reason. Maybe it's help people to feel better that their chats with other people is actually belongs to them, not a email service provider or something.
@@orkhepaj The same reason why you don't want to tell us your real name, where you live, and all your embarrassing secrets right now: "Because it's none of your damn business."
@LazicStefan to be fare, all countries are dictatorships because all countries have States, institutionalized through violence/force, from a political elite, denying natural laws from its citizens. There is no "good country", only "less violent" ones. Norway, Singapore, US, Russia, no one of them respect your rights.
In terms of security, the I.P. logging is actually beneficial as you're able to see the last successful/failed attempts to enter your account and which I.P. address those attempts came from. You can't have this feature without I.P. logging to an extent.
True, just use discord Edit: Because some people are thinking im being serious, i just want to clarify that im not. Discord is shitty spyware and you should never ever use it if you dont want your data being collected
There is NO such thing as a private email service anymore. Really the only option I think would be to setup your own server to send and receive mail, but that can become quite the headache as well.
Anymore? There never was. And a private e-mail won't be able to do shit. E-mail protocol is not private, it isn't meant to be. You can encrypt the content of an e-mail, but the e-mail address and title can be read by anyone.
They at least use a warrant Canary and have built themselves carefully avoiding all USA anything right down too certs . They don't do ap store version s Hardly private if you download it from some place that can see you do it lol
My only concern in choosing an email service is so that Big Tech can't use my (very non-illegal subject matter) emails to sell ads and advance their political influence. I don't care if the feds have access to be honest. Doesn't bother me yet. So if ProtonMail continues to not monetize the email content, I'm good with them.
Email server (or any network/non-network) technology can work WITHOUT logging. Logging is there for analysis what has happened at certain period of time with the service/application, for developers to work of bug fixes. Logging is storing application activity in file. Once more, logging is not necessary for the application/service to run correctly.
Dude, it's literally in their ToS that they report these things to the Swiss government when subpoena'd for it. They don't automatically report things, only when the Swiss authorities ask them to but they're cucked out because Swiss laws make it so that they have to relinquish certain data to (specifically) the Swiss government. This means that alphabet boys can just subpoena the Swiss government and if the Swiss government wants to cooperate then of course they'll subpoena Protonmail
The lesson to be learnt is if you want to hide things on the internet you need to understand what you are using. Though i think it's more to do with where they would be protesting than the fact they activist was skipping school.
No logging to me means that you don't keep logs, i.e. that you see and forget. Of course you have to see the IP address, but you don't need to save it for an extended period of time, in many cases.
Again: Don't discuss illegal unless it's in person. Granted preferably don't DO the illegal thing, but i this instance it's a bit of civil disobedience to generate talk over an issue which I can get behind, but still. Either ProtonMail is wanting its cake in courting 'security conscience' people who don't trust google (to be fair lots of reasons to not trust a company that views you as a commodity to sell,) while also handing information over with minimal resistance. Or they're a straight up a honeypot.
What you need to do is layer your security If you going to use proton mail you better make sure your own identity is hidden already, your own IP is changed and when you send that message it better be encrypted in some way
Ok a lot of good points here and I agree with most, but you’re saying “IP must be logged” about a lot of things. IP must be KNOWN for all TCP/UDP services etc, but it doesn’t necessarily need to get logged, whether to stdout or logfiles.
I only use proton mail for like 3 different websites that I rarely use so I might switch to another email service but since I don’t use it hardly even I don’t think it’s worth changing there email Also I don’t expect any email service to be private I just use multiple emails to containerize accounts
The way Swiss Banks and Virgin Island Banks operate is important context to know why this happened. Your account is subpoenaed by a number or identifier over them simply requesting info in relation to your name requiring the authorities to provide such info. If a Swiss or Virgin Island account is found on records linked to a crime both banks would turn over records on specific transactions. In this circumstance the same is likely true. The email address would only require an excerpt showing the "unlawful" organizing activities to be allowed access.
I know I probably don’t see perfectly eye to eye politically with MO, but I always keep an eye on the channel for the OpSec explainers and whatnot. Good ish
What cracks me up is the masses that use protonmail who are about security and privacy didn't seem to think twice about how obvious a form of honeypot it is because they were blinded by the Swiss cheese selling point ...which btw, has lots of holes. 😂😂
The 14 eyes is an agreement that allows governments to share intelligence with one another. The swiss government can still request data from protonmail on their own, but the only difference is that they probably won't share that data with other countries.
I absolutely agree, but the question then becomes: is there any email service that's worth it as an alternative? This entire event wasn't even the true red flag, it's the fact that the CEO of the company outright lied multiple times, right down to policy and implementation. While it's better than the free regulars, it's only marginally so. Anyone have any ideas?
I think the most email can be secure is remaining in the provider's domain. Gmail to Gmail, Protonmail to Protonmail... Once outside the domain no one can guarantee anything. Companies make claims that consumers want to hear.
Funny thing is, I don't agree with this french activist beliefs but I will stand for his/her rights to do it (without being doxxed or harassed by police)
3:33 This is a pilpul. When someone says "Does not log your IP," they do not mean 'for the purposes of sending packets to you, your IP is held in RAM." When someone is complaining about logging, they mean "Your IP is not stored for long term access after you disconnect." Long-term storage of IP information is not a requirement to connect to a service, it is a choice. Therefore, it's not a lie or a misunderstanding. Not many services actually fit this definition. Trust is not an option. These services, which fit the parameters that a normal person may mean, do exist--albeit rare.
3 года назад+5
Rule number one. If a company advertises privacy and the service costs little or is even free, their privacy isn't good.
so which service with $100 yearly subscription fee has good privacy?
10 месяцев назад+1
@@FruityHachiI don't know. I don't pay 100 dollars a year for a service I don't need. The point is that no service is free. If you expect that a company guards your privacy, you have to pay them, considering it isn't exactly cheap either depending on the service. If something is free, your data and your privacy is usually the price. A service with "free" privacy and security only exists if you DIY. Then you know exactly what happens with your data and where it is stored. But that isn't really free either.
@ you're contradicting yourself and my point completely went over your head I asked you for an expensive service that provides good privacy and you're unable to provide any names I'm not asking you for a service that YOU personally use, just because YOU don't need such service doesn't mean you cannot know of such service "If you expect that a company guards your privacy, you have to pay them" so which company? and since you don't even know of such service, that proves my point that expensive doesn't equal good privacy, otherwise expensive products like apple would not include telemetry your point is that expensive=good privacy, which is not true
10 месяцев назад+1
@@FruityHachi I don't know what you think is wrong. And I don't know what or why you want to debate ...whatever... here. I am not contradicting myself, and your point went not over my head. But mine went over yours apparently, because I answered all your points sufficiently. I will elaborate again just for your understanding. "I asked you for an expensive service that provides good privacy and you're unable to provide any names" I answered that. I don't know it. "I'm not asking you for a service that YOU personally use, just because YOU don't need such service doesn't mean you cannot know of such service" I know what you were asking. I was elaborating on why I don't know. So you would have some context. " so which company?" Read again, I don't know. The third time... "and since you don't even know of such service, that proves my point that expensive doesn't equal good privacy" 1. What I know or do not know doesen't alter reality. So no, it doesen't prove your point. That is not how proving something works. 2. Adding to point 1, you can't generalize all services in existance, especially because you can't know about all in existance. 3. I never said that a service has to be expensive to value your privacy. I said, if it is free or costs little, they will likely not do so. A rule is not law. 4. My point for saying this was, as I elaborated in my last comment, that services are never free. Giving you a service costs money, sometimes a lot of money. If you don't pay for a service with money, the company will use an alternative from you. In most cases, your data and privacy. If you pay only a little fee, then either the service they provide is small or they will partially finance that service through alternative payments of you. Nothing is free and companies are offering services to make money, not because they just wanted to provide a service. "otherwise expensive products like apple would not include telemetry your point is that expensive=good privacy, which is not true" 1. You are comparing apples to pears. You can't just mix companies and services, they are distinct things. 2. Apple offers a lot of services, most vastly different that what this topic is about. 3. Not all companies have the same directive. Some put value in privacy, others don't. Apple is a hardware and software company, not a security service provider. 4. You can't generalize all products of an company. You are paying apple for Hardware if you buy an expensive phone. Not any service. The service of cloud storage, software updates message and apps they provide doesen't cost you any money. Those services are paid by you through alternative methods and are subsidised, by the devices price. They offer those services for "free" because they greatly improve the usability of their devices and are required to get an functioning product. That is why you can choose and are not forced to pay a monthly ammount to get more of the same services, like more storage. That doesen't mean that their privacy policies change because of that. You aren't paying Apple for privacy. I ask you to read more carefully next time. All I did was to state a well known, logical rule of thumb about data privacy and security. Rule number one. If a company advertises privacy and the service costs little or is even free, their privacy isn't good. What part on that sentence is unclear?
being against the gov, the foreign gov of israhel, or non french ethnicity are all crimes in france. im not sure about bathing, and if they are still against that too.
You can absolutely setup a volatile logging system. It can be setup to purge the log on a timer, and the log only ever exists in system memory. The second a disconnect happens, purge log. Assuming logs have to he saved on some form of storage is literally dumb. So that entire session never existed.
I would like to know what some good options are for email. All I ask is a simple layout, fast load times and not selling my data. If protonmail offers that, then fine. But all the lying makes me wonder "for how long". So I ask for other email providers, since clearly there is no way to stay private with email.
ProtonMail is good for signing up for random things that require a "real" email and block temporary email services, since Gmail now requires a phone number to create an account and they block almost every temporary SMS service (unless you pay for it, maybe).
I’m curious, would you recommend current ProtonMail users switch to a different service or keep using ProtonMail, as it doesn’t seem like there are any better alternatives? If you’d recommend they switch, to what?
@@collybeans586 he straight up said that cock.li was better but unfortunately you need to scrounge around to find an invite now. The only thing it's truly better on though is the fact that its onion service isn't dogshit. They'll still have IP addresses and everything. The key is that if you're going through Tor and practicing good opsec then you'll be fine. The better alternative is to use a good encrypted messaging app. One that doesn't keep really any info to begin with. If you're using an email just for normal stuff and just don't want your data sold or be banned for saying things over email that Google doesn't like, though, using protonmail is totally fine. The problem addressed here is that they are just not as private as they claim to be and they literally can't be.
TBH I find TechLore's take on this situation much more level headed. Although MO is pointing out some true technical info even he admits "[IP logging] is just how email works as a technology", and "I don't blame ProtonMail for complying with the request".
Mental Outlaw, every time I watch a new video of yours, I think. Damn, he knows about that, too? Throwing out red pills left and right without even blinking. Fucking based, my man.
I mean, what were they supposed to do, go against the swiss law? The police would forcefully break into their server room and destroy their business. Kids these days don't understand we live in a society. If you want privacy, sign up to protonmail through Tor through a VPN that you pay via bitcoins. Or something like that. If you need privacy, get it on all levels, not just with ur mail provider but also in how you access it
For the record: There is a difference between _seeing_ an IP address and logging it. Logging it is to keep a record for later, you know, in case authorities ask for it. Not that I trust a company that tells me it doesn't keep logs.
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@@davidchase9424 more things than I can mention or remember. There is lots of cases where they intentionally poisoned their baby formulas and such in Africa and Middle East. There's a forum dedicated to listing all the crimes nestle has done. There were rumors when I was living overseas that they used to go to landfills and process the trash to make it look like baby formula and use it as filler for their products. They are a conglomerate with hundreds of brands under different names. They've been sued more times than should be legal.
05:50 Just a minor nitpick: there's a difference between *seeing* someone's IP and *logging* someone's IP. You repeated it more than once, that they see people's IP, therefore they log people's IP. I'm not saying that they don't log them (they most likely do), I'm just saying that one doesn't necessarily follow from the other. I can see your IP and still not record it anywhere, for example.
That means the battle for privacy is a legal one, not a technological one, because the problem is not that there can't be privacy-respecting technology, but that tech companies, are required by law to hold identifying info about you in case law enforcement needs it, even if their business model doesn't include selling your data. All with the added downside that internet protocols do not respect privacy on any level, so anyone trying to provide such privacy-respecting service, will eventually be prosecuted.
its 100 percent a legal issue. Regardless of the tech, if its legal for your gov and its corporate overlords to invade your privacy, thats the root issue there. If a gov (using tax dollars!) is able to legally hack or subpoena a company to provide access to your data, all that encryption/mechanisms/walls/tricks are useless. if there are laws against it, and the gov illegally hacks the database, its all inadmissible in court.
Many will still choose to use its to avoid dealing with apple and google. I had my apple email involuntary shut off after J6 happened. They cited emails regarding volunteer work with Trump's re-election campaign. I literally had held signs on a street corner three months prior, but that was enough to Yeet me.
One would assume when given the choice between following the law and getting to continue to operate, and disobeying the law and getting shut down; businesses will always try to stay open.
I use protonmail as my email service for my projects cause I don't know any better equivalent (yeah i don't research a lot), i would love to hear some suggestions.
3:34 you are able to look the ip addresses of your users, but you don't have to log them. These technologies doesn't require you to store the ips, what are you even talking about? It's entirely possible a service doesn't log the ip addresses, but you have to take their word for it. And they also can change their mind about it. But it doesn't have anything to do with technology restrictions
From what I’ve read, and I’m open to discussion because I just want the truth, the Swiss government “compelled” proton mail to log the ip address of that French activist. I have not found any other device information logging. I know this is an old video but I want to point out that companies are only as private as their government allows them to be. If these companies don’t comply, then they will be shutdown. Edit: spelling mistakes
The more time progresses, the more I realize the suggestion that IT is a good field for jobs was something that may have applied the best during the 90's or something.
@@perfredriksen3281 Pretty much that. Oh, and feds breathing down your neck every day. Sure, they did it back in the 90s, but they weren't so cavalier and brazen about doing it back then.
The solution isn't to switch email providers, the solution is to stop using email altogether. If you want a demi-decent alternative, buy a burner phone (you can even do that online with crypto), register on signal, and use that (over Tor if you're paranoid).
Thanks for keeping to report this, you are very right and I hope more sceptics that are still dreaming of proton protecting their backs selflessly with super-powers. Listen to this message!
Websites can work without logging IPs, sure they see it but that doesn't mean they have to store it. Like when you see messages on Snapchat (unless you screenshot) they're gone from your end
I don’t really see how logging someones IP Address is required for an email service to function, could you explain what I’m missing? The only time you need someones IP address would be while communicating, and nothing should require you to log that.
The server receives a packet of information. Then where is it supposed to distribute? That's when IP address comes in to identify the intended owner. Without ip address you can not have direct communication
i wonder what is the case with proton VPN. cause its a genuenly great VPN especially since its free and has helped me over come an insane amount of cencorship from the iranian government . i cant simply replace it either since the service is soo good that all the other VPNs just never work .
It's good enough for bypassing censorship, torrenting, remaining fairly anonymous etc. I would not use vpns alone if you're doing anything above that. But for the overwhelming majority of people they are not. So it doesn't matter.
I don't think the Swiss authorities would comply with a request from Iran. VPNs are more secure than not using a VPN. Tor is probably a better option. Tor is monitored by the American government, and the U.S. absolutely won't comply with whatever Iran wants.
While the IP's can be logged and on Proton's end IMAP or SMTP can be read in the clear you can pre-encrypt your messages with PGP/GPG so that only the intended recipient can decrypt the messages and read them. While this might be 100% it should add another layer of difficulty for anyone trying to read the info... Might not have helped the person taken for truancy in the end... Might make it more difficult overall because more and more people may need to learn how to use PGP/GPG too...
Man this is the issue with privacy. Cant have shit on the internet. Nothing is simple. You genuinely have to isolate every single account and aspect of your digital existence like a schizoid. Thanks for that lesson Kenny.
now that i think about it, going after full privacy on the internet makes you look like a disturbed conspiracy theorist from the outside
@@kirtil5177 It really does. There's a very fine line and it's hard to distinguish
We need an Internet #2
@Alexandru Oh boy, if you really think Signal is somewhere close to being safe or private you might aswell just dox your entire internet being right away.
@@arcuz7862 ruclips.net/video/3oPeIbpA5x8/видео.html seems pretty good to me
ProtonMail logs IP's? Well thankfully I'm protected by ProtonVP- oh.
😂😂😂😂
This tells a lot of about the internet security and its future
@Greatyork TV lol how does that apply in this situation
@Greatyork TV lol
😂
four eyed cat-man is telling the truth nobody wants to hear
i dont care , gmail is fine
_"They hated Him because He told them the truth."_
@@VladTepesVEVO Ce mai face Stefan cel Mare
@@hellomine2849 se adună românii aici
trippin balls
he's really dropping b-15 truth bombs.
tsar bomba truth edition
They claim the Swiss servers located in the Swiss alps (old military bunkers) can survive a nuclear explosion
@@gasper5223 i think thats another company, not protonvpn
13 year olds with genkernel in this thread~
^ 15yo custom amd64 bloat kernel flex
Well...this is awkward.
F.B.I., open up.
Dude, how the hell were you even able to claim that profile name?
@@MusicToTheEars141 you can change your username to whatever you want.
@@technophobian2962 I mean, how did RUclips even allow this?
@@MusicToTheEars141 I don't know. Makes things a lot easier for scam comments too.
Imagine a government being so afraid of protesting youths that they order a foreign police force and company to give them intel. Firstly, WTF?! Secondly, if they are so anxious, it seems like we are on the right path.
I don't know why but this is becoming so common in these 'really good' countries. Nordic countries straight up not investigating rape cases( like the exurb1a case) and also keeping strong surveillance on activists in their country. Also become a stereotype for Japan. These countries are obviously now just trying to keep a facade of low crime rates and public satisfaction and will do anything to keep it up, even if it involves causing the complete opposite.
Oh yeah didn't they pass a law in Australia too that allows them to hack anyone's device for surveillance
@@manaspradhan8041 yeah, heard some shady stuff from Australia (recommend friendly jordies for AUS related content). But you're right. They try their best to keep the status quo regarding everything. Why change climate policies when you can jail the activists, why change abortion laws when you can make them even more strict so no one talks about it, why change the approach to organised crime when you can sweep it under the rug. The stagnation in every component of society except the free market (becoming some sort of alternative religion) is frightening.
@@minecrafter023 tf's the free market?
Yes we are winning
They are trying to remove any annonimity on the internet.
I and protonmail have a lot in common.
(For the grammar)
😳
I admire to your dedication to the joke.
I didn’t read your name at first. It took me 2 minutes to get this joke
Protonmail and I*
@@vestborobaptistchurch3161 me and your mom*
and thats why i stick with this channel, even after getting laughed out of the protonmail subreddit he still didn't stop trying to educate people. i wonder what'll happen if he goes back to that subreddit to post this video.
Knowing the hive mentality of the reddit, I would guess with 99.9999% certainty that they would just do the same and protec proton until it fades into obscurity.
@@MrREALball oh sh!t your right, someone posted his vid and all they could say was how bad his thumbnail was. i dont use reddit but from an outsiders POV, these guys seem braindead.
@@definitelynotclickbait8283 it looks more like an anti-reddit than a reddit alternative. perhaps if there were posting from both sides of the political spectrum it might actually start posing as a threat to reddit.
At this point in time, I can't be convinced that the "users" on Deaddit aren't really 80 -90% chatbots, propping up a long dead fad site.
I mean - Ghislaine ran reddit/news. No more needs be said.
@@malcontender6319 everyone on the internet other than yourself is a chatbot
I use the free version of Proton mail simply because it is not Google, Yahoo, or Microsoft.
Proton Mail is not nor ever will be "safe". As a matter of fact, there is not a single email service in existence that is "safe".
Never has been, never will be.
Same thing for VPNs. If your adversary is the government, using Tor is not going to help either, if they really want you.
tails is probably your best bet, but yeah if your government is after you just don’t use the internet or phones.
@@JH-jk3nm Very true, yes. No amount of tech can stop the physical force of a government/country/state who is hell bent on getting you. Better to have other tactics.
@@thefoxpine my understanding is it is E2E encrypted so long as the emails are between protonmail email domains. anything sent to yahoo google etc is not encrypted
real domestic griefers communicate in the overworld anyways.
If they want your login info, the only way you can stop them from getting it is by not logging in, so encryption doesn't matter.@@mysteryY2K
the difference between conspiracy and reality is once again a few months.
No, it isn't. MO had a good video a few months back, with good arguments and explanations -- where conspiracy is a much more abstract, to the point of ridiculous (flat earth, vaccines, you get what I'm saying).
hello avon, bogdan and i would like to have a little chat
@the nexus I think he means that "vaccines cause autism" thing, not COVID vaccines controvery
@@Pyoron I used to laught at that thing before, but seeing how the vaxed crowd acts right now, I'm starting to see some credibility to the causes autism thing.
@@johnsmith361 eh, I think it's more about group identity. "The vaxed" can be used as a form of identity politics, it's all about tribalism
Made in Switzerland and neutrality and all that is absolute BS.
-A swiss
But their army has great knives.
@@BroonParker They're okay, pretty outdated.
The Swiss are no longer neutral. Haven’t been since 2022.
Me: Switches to protonmail because MO recommended it once
MO: Makes a video that Protonmail is spooky
Well that's problem of all internet services, that are developing over time. Take Signal for example. It was a while ago claimed as secure open source messanger, yet the compay decided to not commit updates on the Signals server and apps to github, implementing mobilecoin and soone... And by the end any tipe of distant communication in history wasn't completely private anyway (like letters that could be stolen from your mailbox...), but today it is sometimes harder to chose the lesser evil, because companies always tries to hide how their services works to the public. It's good there are "wistleblowers" like Mental Outlaw, but you should only consider the arguments and decide on your own.
@@MrHolmesCZ any company providing some type of secure service is bull, other corporations like the cia, fbi are going to do legal and illegal things to them if they don't put in a million backdoors.
Authorities squeeze the nerds who make these sites - nerds who have no solid bone or belief in their body.
They fold like lawnchairs.
@@malcontender6319 completely the opposite, person most likely to fold is the conservative righty type loser CEO, while the nerd virgin tries to protect it till the very end, till he is either kicked or killed.
want peace of mind? Remove yourself from the same goddamn protocol stacks
The irony of them having "Swiss privacy" on the website... 😂👌
When I first read this story I didn't even though it was Gretas skipping school...
"how dare you"
No they are literally Mountain sweJ, why you trust them?
@@muftiwicaksono7914 hey, that's a pretty good name for a soda. Green, of course, with a "minted" flavor - and plenty of gas.
@@4.0.4 yes it's green, at least it's not glowing.
@@muftiwicaksono7914 little tip never trust the swiss
In all seriousness, email as a standard is very aged and there's no point in making it secure. We should move on to newer but secure communication platforms
What would those be?
Problem is whichever platform you consider anonymity is still very hard, provided it is used by a large enough number of people to be of practical use. Heck if you are not careful enough the government can track you down even if you are using Tor, its getting real scary the extent to which they go.
@Alex Nezhynsky My theory is that the war on terrorism, drugs, and pedophilia (and trafficking in general) are at the point that they are dog whistles and ruses to strip people of their civil liberties, in the sense that they are constantly used as scapegoats for corporations and interest groups to fuck everyone without wealth sideways. It's almost always never used in good faith, and despite these restrictions on things, these issues have never died down.
It's so weird seeing many corpo shills butthurt about what Richard Stallman said about authorities searching through the computers of people who cross tolls.
Yes UwU
@@user-ze1qk9tg0k matrix is a movie ... you are clueless
What's your opinion on Lavabit? Those mfs literally shut down their entire network to protect Edward Snowden
Yea, I've been wondering about how Lavabits doing
I think they first gave out the requested data and THEN folded, so no. Don't trust them either.
@@madkvideo Not data but key, and shut it down their services so noone can access
@@madkvideo the gave the private key then instsntly shutdown their servers
@@duckmeat4674 haven't ever heard about this, that's a chad move
As a network engineer and email security subject matter expert I have not once believed any of these bold claims of “no logging” and “we care about your privacy” its the trendy marketing trope that is an outright lie.
What better alternatives to Protonmail?
@@floppathebased1492 false
@@Frivals Threema.
Well, well, well.
How the turns have tabled. Now the cat man is the hero and the spoiled onion mail shows their true colors
Taken from their website: ProtonMail has evolved into a global effort to protect civil liberties and build a more secure Internet
Users: Press X to Doubt
Protonmail: Press Y to lie
Damn bro, that’s like
_three wells, man, goddamn…_
Ayyyyy lmao I'm the 420th like 👽
If it isn't the consequences of my own actions..
What I've learned over the years is that whenever there's a hyped up "privacy tool", it's either a straight up honeypot or just a huge glow-in-the-dark alphabet boi magnet, so you're almost always better off using some relatively obscure tech with a small and hush following. This principle has not let me down once to this day.
Security through obscurity.
@@joshallen128 what exactly is at odds with FOS philosophy here?
@@beardalaxy I mean yes security through obscurity is not really great security, but it does help.
Security through obscurity can only get you so far
@Redbag three your what?
he's like simpson of tech world now
True probably the only one who suspected proton mail lol
5:52 that's partially true. Yes, IP addresses are fundamental for the Internet Protocol to work. However, IP logging is a different thing, it means storing an IP address along with a timestamp in a DB. Once the server is done processing a request, it can throw out the address from its main memory (main memory is RAM, *not HDD,* any data deleted from RAM is permanently gone). IP logging requires data persistence, which in turn requires SSDs or HDDs for long-term preservation of data (even after deletion, because the sectors are just marked as "free space" that will be overwritten in the future).
TLDR: there is no need for logging IP addresses in storage drives, but "seeing" the IPA and holding it in main memory (temporarily) is necessary
I think what he meant was it's impossible for them to not see your IP address, which means you just have to take their word for it that they're not logging you. And you can be sure any service saying they don't is lying, because even if they don't want to then government will pressure them to do it.
@@LilacMonarch I agree
^ this
Even then they're still lying, they're 100% logging your IP. VPN companies purport the same lie about "not logging user activities beyond bandwidth use", yet most of those same companies cooperating with the feds have proven otherwise.
@@LilacMonarch it's why I like services that admit they can spy on you, because that sort of implies they think you are rational and not stupid and this have some respect for you.
I've seen the criticisms you made about Protonmail a little before your previous video was uploaded, and at the time the Protonmail supporters just dismissed it as fake news. But fake news nowadays simply means whatever that doesn't conform to the narrative the authorities want, so the suspicion lingered. But your video made it very clear why those criticisms are valid, and it convinced me that Protonmail (and email in general) can't be trusted.
The only reason I still didn't switch though, was because there aren't really any better email alternatives afaik, outside of hosting your own email server (which I have neither the space nor money to do). But this case is just really disappointing. Trying to cover it up is a massive red flag. I'm gonna try and look for an alternative.
Same! I'm still using Protonmail for the simple reason that I would prefer Proton to have access to my emails rather than Google or something. Email is not secure, so you may as well pick the lesser of evils.
@@CommonWealthSnow theres tutanota
@@randomrandom316 selfhosting is a bad idea if you do not have the skills/time to keep it secure.
As he says in the video. If you want anonymity, you can just set up an account and use it over tor. If you want encryption, you can use PGP with any email provider. Thunderbird now implements it without the need to install further extensions. The services Protonmail offer aren't really anything new. It borders false advertising.
>and email in general
by design, email isn't supposed be private.
Remember, when cops ask companies for information they don't talk about suspected crimes. They just call you a person of interest and lean on the organization until it caves.
If you really want secrecy:
0. Tell no one at all, generate no paper trail, loose lips.....
1. Whisper it in their ear with cover noise in the background. The information is never spoken around or touches a phone or computer of any kind.
2. Use a written note, possibly coded by hand. The data should never be exposed to a computer or phone.
3. You both use air gaped computers and use an encrypted drive to move the data.
The above is very secure, and only option 0 is actually secure. Its too late for me, the advertisers know my deepest desire to buy merchandise at low low prices.....
When I heard about this news, I immediately thought about the video you made lol
Unless you can host both ends of an internet service yourself, it will never be private. Any time a third party is involved, including the person you may be trying to contact, assume that it's possible for someone to see what you're doing. There's no such thing as "Private and Secure" email or messaging or cloud storage or anything else.
If you really need something to be private, don't do it on the internet.
damn straight, there's actually the only way to get privacy, which is to note on the plain paper
The message you can secure with encryption keys that were exchanged face to face. The fact that you are communicating is not so easy to hide...
Or host your own service, if you can afford it.
It's impossible to escape from governments, it's very difficult to escape from big private corporations. The only ones that you can fight against are little groups and individuals if they don't have critical breach at their disposition
I think the problem is the way they sell themselves, claiming "anonymous email account". They should make clear since day one that obviously they need the follow Swiss law, including logging IP addresses if requested. Still, I don't see better usable alternative for the average user out there.
Should their govt. rather be thankful such advocatives are there that they're at least putting an effort to stop the Alps from melting and becoming purely naked rocks?
when reddit mods delete links to your video, that's how you know you're doing something right. lol
They also remove posts ceiticizing althoritarian governaments, so, yeah! :)
@@guliverjham8148 Or political candidates the corpomedia establishment loves.
@@kavky Man, they are _really_ afraid, aren't they?
It's like something being "fact checked" as false: at that point you know it's true enough to be uncomfortable for people in power.
Welp, I'm glad that I held off on signing up for Proton Mail, thank you for the information from the prior video.
What you’ve used instead then?
why do you want to hide?
Well, everybody wants for whatever reason. Maybe it's help people to feel better that their chats with other people is actually belongs to them, not a email service provider or something.
@@orkhepaj The same reason why you don't want to tell us your real name, where you live, and all your embarrassing secrets right now: "Because it's none of your damn business."
@@egtegs You spitting common sense right now, go off king.
I'm really sad to hear this as a Swiss guy
@LazicStefan to be fare, all countries are dictatorships because all countries have States, institutionalized through violence/force, from a political elite, denying natural laws from its citizens.
There is no "good country", only "less violent" ones. Norway, Singapore, US, Russia, no one of them respect your rights.
In terms of security, the I.P. logging is actually beneficial as you're able to see the last successful/failed attempts to enter your account and which I.P. address those attempts came from.
You can't have this feature without I.P. logging to an extent.
For such a minor crime, wow! Thanks for spreading good information, I'm so glad I found your channel man. keep up the great work
Ofc, they want all the young impressionable minds in their government operated learning facilities.
secure email is a silly thing to begin with
exactly
True, just use discord
Edit: Because some people are thinking im being serious, i just want to clarify that im not. Discord is shitty spyware and you should never ever use it if you dont want your data being collected
@@castles990 or messenger :)
@@castles990 in all seriousness i think discord is worse since you can't host any of it yourself xD
i got the joke, please don't whoosh me
Using classic (paper) mail is probably more secure
Lavabit avoided complying with subpoena by shutting down their whole company.
I can respect that alot
There is NO such thing as a private email service anymore. Really the only option I think would be to setup your own server to send and receive mail, but that can become quite the headache as well.
Anymore?
There never was.
And a private e-mail won't be able to do shit. E-mail protocol is not private, it isn't meant to be.
You can encrypt the content of an e-mail, but the e-mail address and title can be read by anyone.
Mailfence
They at least use a warrant Canary and have built themselves carefully avoiding all USA anything right down too certs .
They don't do ap store version s
Hardly private if you download it from some place that can see you do it lol
My only concern in choosing an email service is so that Big Tech can't use my (very non-illegal subject matter) emails to sell ads and advance their political influence. I don't care if the feds have access to be honest. Doesn't bother me yet. So if ProtonMail continues to not monetize the email content, I'm good with them.
Guess I will send my mails via a messenger pigeon from now on.
Sorry, the government controls the birds too.
RFC 1149?
@@PK-we6vk Birds aren't real.
Bang!
Email server (or any network/non-network) technology can work WITHOUT logging. Logging is there for analysis what has happened at certain period of time with the service/application, for developers to work of bug fixes. Logging is storing application activity in file. Once more, logging is not necessary for the application/service to run correctly.
What I'd have expected from ProtonMail is to go to court and see, if that request was legit at all. That's the minimum, what they owe their customers.
Damn, perhaps the best way is to just DIY
Email technology is fundamentally not private or anonymous.
@@xp5794 convenience > freedom
@@PK-we6vk depends on your mentality xdd
P G P
@@MentalOutlaw so i should just use gmail? protonmail and tutanota deletes after 3 months
This was not surprising from Protonmail, since since the BÜPF law no data can be kept properly secure in Switzerland.
Dude, it's literally in their ToS that they report these things to the Swiss government when subpoena'd for it. They don't automatically report things, only when the Swiss authorities ask them to but they're cucked out because Swiss laws make it so that they have to relinquish certain data to (specifically) the Swiss government.
This means that alphabet boys can just subpoena the Swiss government and if the Swiss government wants to cooperate then of course they'll subpoena Protonmail
The lesson to be learnt is if you want to hide things on the internet you need to understand what you are using. Though i think it's more to do with where they would be protesting than the fact they activist was skipping school.
In short: Always stay fresh, 'cause the feds are watching.
No logging to me means that you don't keep logs, i.e. that you see and forget. Of course you have to see the IP address, but you don't need to save it for an extended period of time, in many cases.
Again: Don't discuss illegal unless it's in person.
Granted preferably don't DO the illegal thing, but i this instance it's a bit of civil disobedience to generate talk over an issue which I can get behind, but still.
Either ProtonMail is wanting its cake in courting 'security conscience' people who don't trust google (to be fair lots of reasons to not trust a company that views you as a commodity to sell,) while also handing information over with minimal resistance.
Or they're a straight up a honeypot.
PGP tho
Why shoudlnt he discuss illegal things
What you need to do is layer your security
If you going to use proton mail you better make sure your own identity is hidden already, your own IP is changed and when you send that message it better be encrypted in some way
Ok a lot of good points here and I agree with most, but you’re saying “IP must be logged” about a lot of things.
IP must be KNOWN for all TCP/UDP services etc, but it doesn’t necessarily need to get logged, whether to stdout or logfiles.
It does say in the PMail terms and conditions that they will log and trace you (and supply) if they get a Court Order or Warrant.
I am so glad I found your channel several months ago, currently a windows normie who is slowly moving to Linux.
I always thought that you'd have been proficient with BSD, given your doctoral work at MIT in the 90s.
@@CFSworks BSD is for real chads. Linux is for sheeple
The battle for secure private messaging continues...
I only use proton mail for like 3 different websites that I rarely use so I might switch to another email service but since I don’t use it hardly even I don’t think it’s worth changing there email
Also I don’t expect any email service to be private I just use multiple emails to containerize accounts
The way Swiss Banks and Virgin Island Banks operate is important context to know why this happened.
Your account is subpoenaed by a number or identifier over them simply requesting info in relation to your name requiring the authorities to provide such info. If a Swiss or Virgin Island account is found on records linked to a crime both banks would turn over records on specific transactions.
In this circumstance the same is likely true. The email address would only require an excerpt showing the "unlawful" organizing activities to be allowed access.
I know I probably don’t see perfectly eye to eye politically with MO, but I always keep an eye on the channel for the OpSec explainers and whatnot. Good ish
What cracks me up is the masses that use protonmail who are about security and privacy didn't seem to think twice about how obvious a form of honeypot it is because they were blinded by the Swiss cheese selling point ...which btw, has lots of holes. 😂😂
What were they supposed to do? Refuse to abide by the law and have their entire service shut down and investigated?
@@marles139 would have tried to sue first
Saw this a mile away. Still waiting for something similar with Signal. It's coming.
What do you use?
Love to say, but RUclips keeps deleting. Let's test the algo, and see what gets deleted.
@@blakeeastman4769 still use signal over clear SMS, even though i'm fairly sure it's pwned.
@@blakeeastman4769 matrix
@@blakeeastman4769 Jami
I don't know much about privacy stuff, but isnt Switzerland is out of the 14 eyes, why did they still gave them their I.P.s?
The 14 eyes is an agreement that allows governments to share intelligence with one another. The swiss government can still request data from protonmail on their own, but the only difference is that they probably won't share that data with other countries.
I absolutely agree, but the question then becomes: is there any email service that's worth it as an alternative? This entire event wasn't even the true red flag, it's the fact that the CEO of the company outright lied multiple times, right down to policy and implementation. While it's better than the free regulars, it's only marginally so. Anyone have any ideas?
As a person from switzerland, i can confirm that i knew this was going to happen sooner or later.
The hard problem with hiding yourself from people spying you is that they have the advantage all the time.
I think the most email can be secure is remaining in the provider's domain. Gmail to Gmail, Protonmail to Protonmail...
Once outside the domain no one can guarantee anything. Companies make claims that consumers want to hear.
Funny thing is, I don't agree with this french activist beliefs but I will stand for his/her rights to do it (without being doxxed or harassed by police)
3:33
This is a pilpul. When someone says "Does not log your IP," they do not mean 'for the purposes of sending packets to you, your IP is held in RAM." When someone is complaining about logging, they mean "Your IP is not stored for long term access after you disconnect." Long-term storage of IP information is not a requirement to connect to a service, it is a choice. Therefore, it's not a lie or a misunderstanding.
Not many services actually fit this definition. Trust is not an option. These services, which fit the parameters that a normal person may mean, do exist--albeit rare.
Rule number one. If a company advertises privacy and the service costs little or is even free, their privacy isn't good.
so which service with $100 yearly subscription fee has good privacy?
@@FruityHachiI don't know. I don't pay 100 dollars a year for a service I don't need.
The point is that no service is free. If you expect that a company guards your privacy, you have to pay them, considering it isn't exactly cheap either depending on the service. If something is free, your data and your privacy is usually the price.
A service with "free" privacy and security only exists if you DIY. Then you know exactly what happens with your data and where it is stored. But that isn't really free either.
@ you're contradicting yourself and my point completely went over your head
I asked you for an expensive service that provides good privacy and you're unable to provide any names
I'm not asking you for a service that YOU personally use, just because YOU don't need such service doesn't mean you cannot know of such service
"If you expect that a company guards your privacy, you have to pay them" so which company?
and since you don't even know of such service, that proves my point that expensive doesn't equal good privacy, otherwise expensive products like apple would not include telemetry
your point is that expensive=good privacy, which is not true
@@FruityHachi I don't know what you think is wrong. And I don't know what or why you want to debate ...whatever... here.
I am not contradicting myself, and your point went not over my head. But mine went over yours apparently, because I answered all your points sufficiently. I will elaborate again just for your understanding.
"I asked you for an expensive service that provides good privacy and you're unable to provide any names"
I answered that. I don't know it.
"I'm not asking you for a service that YOU personally use, just because YOU don't need such service doesn't mean you cannot know of such service"
I know what you were asking. I was elaborating on why I don't know. So you would have some context.
" so which company?"
Read again, I don't know. The third time...
"and since you don't even know of such service, that proves my point that expensive doesn't equal good privacy"
1. What I know or do not know doesen't alter reality. So no, it doesen't prove your point. That is not how proving something works.
2. Adding to point 1, you can't generalize all services in existance, especially because you can't know about all in existance.
3. I never said that a service has to be expensive to value your privacy. I said, if it is free or costs little, they will likely not do so. A rule is not law.
4. My point for saying this was, as I elaborated in my last comment, that services are never free. Giving you a service costs money, sometimes a lot of money. If you don't pay for a service with money, the company will use an alternative from you. In most cases, your data and privacy.
If you pay only a little fee, then either the service they provide is small or they will partially finance that service through alternative payments of you. Nothing is free and companies are offering services to make money, not because they just wanted to provide a service.
"otherwise expensive products like apple would not include telemetry
your point is that expensive=good privacy, which is not true"
1. You are comparing apples to pears. You can't just mix companies and services, they are distinct things.
2. Apple offers a lot of services, most vastly different that what this topic is about.
3. Not all companies have the same directive. Some put value in privacy, others don't. Apple is a hardware and software company, not a security service provider.
4. You can't generalize all products of an company. You are paying apple for Hardware if you buy an expensive phone. Not any service. The service of cloud storage, software updates message and apps they provide doesen't cost you any money. Those services are paid by you through alternative methods and are subsidised, by the devices price. They offer those services for "free" because they greatly improve the usability of their devices and are required to get an functioning product. That is why you can choose and are not forced to pay a monthly ammount to get more of the same services, like more storage. That doesen't mean that their privacy policies change because of that. You aren't paying Apple for privacy.
I ask you to read more carefully next time.
All I did was to state a well known, logical rule of thumb about data privacy and security.
Rule number one. If a company advertises privacy and the service costs little or is even free, their privacy isn't good.
What part on that sentence is unclear?
100$ of postage stamps. @@FruityHachi
No, the email server doesnt need to keep logs of IPs in order for the technology to work. Even if it did, make a new protocol to send text and images.
Wait, is truancy a crime in France?
being against the gov, the foreign gov of israhel, or non french ethnicity are all crimes in france.
im not sure about bathing, and if they are still against that too.
You can see them without logging it. They were compelled to log them by a court order. They didn't log it before.
as a swiss person, thats really dissapointing to hear.
You can absolutely setup a volatile logging system. It can be setup to purge the log on a timer, and the log only ever exists in system memory. The second a disconnect happens, purge log. Assuming logs have to he saved on some form of storage is literally dumb. So that entire session never existed.
I would like to know what some good options are for email. All I ask is a simple layout, fast load times and not selling my data. If protonmail offers that, then fine. But all the lying makes me wonder "for how long". So I ask for other email providers, since clearly there is no way to stay private with email.
ctemplar, tutanota
ProtonMail is good for signing up for random things that require a "real" email and block temporary email services, since Gmail now requires a phone number to create an account and they block almost every temporary SMS service (unless you pay for it, maybe).
I’m curious, would you recommend current ProtonMail users switch to a different service or keep using ProtonMail, as it doesn’t seem like there are any better alternatives? If you’d recommend they switch, to what?
Yeah he forgot the conclusion part.
@@collybeans586 he straight up said that cock.li was better but unfortunately you need to scrounge around to find an invite now. The only thing it's truly better on though is the fact that its onion service isn't dogshit. They'll still have IP addresses and everything. The key is that if you're going through Tor and practicing good opsec then you'll be fine.
The better alternative is to use a good encrypted messaging app. One that doesn't keep really any info to begin with.
If you're using an email just for normal stuff and just don't want your data sold or be banned for saying things over email that Google doesn't like, though, using protonmail is totally fine. The problem addressed here is that they are just not as private as they claim to be and they literally can't be.
I got invites
TBH I find TechLore's take on this situation much more level headed. Although MO is pointing out some true technical info even he admits "[IP logging] is just how email works as a technology", and "I don't blame ProtonMail for complying with the request".
Mental Outlaw, every time I watch a new video of yours, I think. Damn, he knows about that, too? Throwing out red pills left and right without even blinking.
Fucking based, my man.
I'm not worried about privacy with the government, I just don't want anyone to hack into my stuff.
I mean, what were they supposed to do, go against the swiss law? The police would forcefully break into their server room and destroy their business. Kids these days don't understand we live in a society. If you want privacy, sign up to protonmail through Tor through a VPN that you pay via bitcoins. Or something like that. If you need privacy, get it on all levels, not just with ur mail provider but also in how you access it
For the record: There is a difference between _seeing_ an IP address and logging it. Logging it is to keep a record for later, you know, in case authorities ask for it. Not that I trust a company that tells me it doesn't keep logs.
I feel like he lost some credibility by appearing to not understand this fundamental fact.
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Fun Fact:
Swiss owned Nestlé Chocolate has active cocoa slave plantations in Africa that employ child slave labor.
fun fact 2:
Nestle has done worse things than child slavery. And thats terrifying.
@@phantomtr1
What is it? What did they do?
@@davidchase9424 more things than I can mention or remember. There is lots of cases where they intentionally poisoned their baby formulas and such in Africa and Middle East. There's a forum dedicated to listing all the crimes nestle has done. There were rumors when I was living overseas that they used to go to landfills and process the trash to make it look like baby formula and use it as filler for their products. They are a conglomerate with hundreds of brands under different names. They've been sued more times than should be legal.
Wow. Thanks Sir. Almost signed up for them before I saw this! I’m learning so much from you! Thanks so much
05:50 Just a minor nitpick: there's a difference between *seeing* someone's IP and *logging* someone's IP. You repeated it more than once, that they see people's IP, therefore they log people's IP. I'm not saying that they don't log them (they most likely do), I'm just saying that one doesn't necessarily follow from the other. I can see your IP and still not record it anywhere, for example.
It's not a nitpick, it's actually a very important difference that I also noticed in this video.
That means the battle for privacy is a legal one, not a technological one, because the problem is not that there can't be privacy-respecting technology, but that tech companies, are required by law to hold identifying info about you in case law enforcement needs it, even if their business model doesn't include selling your data.
All with the added downside that internet protocols do not respect privacy on any level, so anyone trying to provide such privacy-respecting service, will eventually be prosecuted.
its 100 percent a legal issue. Regardless of the tech, if its legal for your gov and its corporate overlords to invade your privacy, thats the root issue there. If a gov (using tax dollars!) is able to legally hack or subpoena a company to provide access to your data, all that encryption/mechanisms/walls/tricks are useless.
if there are laws against it, and the gov illegally hacks the database, its all inadmissible in court.
Many will still choose to use its to avoid dealing with apple and google. I had my apple email involuntary shut off after J6 happened. They cited emails regarding volunteer work with Trump's re-election campaign. I literally had held signs on a street corner three months prior, but that was enough to Yeet me.
One would assume when given the choice between following the law and getting to continue to operate, and disobeying the law and getting shut down; businesses will always try to stay open.
I use protonmail as my email service for my projects cause I don't know any better equivalent (yeah i don't research a lot), i would love to hear some suggestions.
I always thought "no logs" meant that they don't store IPs persistently and when/if they dump server logs to disk they redact the IPs.
3:34 you are able to look the ip addresses of your users, but you don't have to log them. These technologies doesn't require you to store the ips, what are you even talking about? It's entirely possible a service doesn't log the ip addresses, but you have to take their word for it. And they also can change their mind about it. But it doesn't have anything to do with technology restrictions
From what I’ve read, and I’m open to discussion because I just want the truth, the Swiss government “compelled” proton mail to log the ip address of that French activist. I have not found any other device information logging.
I know this is an old video but I want to point out that companies are only as private as their government allows them to be. If these companies don’t comply, then they will be shutdown.
Edit: spelling mistakes
I knew it! I believed it as soon as I watched your last video on them
The more time progresses, the more I realize the suggestion that IT is a good field for jobs was something that may have applied the best during the 90's or something.
What do you believe has changed?
My concern is the relative ease of Offshoring to poor countries.
@@perfredriksen3281 Pretty much that. Oh, and feds breathing down your neck every day. Sure, they did it back in the 90s, but they weren't so cavalier and brazen about doing it back then.
i knew protonmail was glowy for years. the only guaranteed reliable server is a self-hosted one, so you assume liability for your own activity
cute pfp btw
So where are you hosting your email, country wise.
when you self-host, what about spam filters? if you send me an email to gmail, will gmail flag it as spam from coming from a self hosted server?
The solution isn't to switch email providers, the solution is to stop using email altogether. If you want a demi-decent alternative, buy a burner phone (you can even do that online with crypto), register on signal, and use that (over Tor if you're paranoid).
Thank you for dealing with the reddit bs in such a good manner x) Watching your videos since a year and loved all of them! Keep it up :)
Thanks for keeping to report this, you are very right and I hope more sceptics that are still dreaming of proton protecting their backs selflessly with super-powers. Listen to this message!
What better alternatives to Protonmail?
Websites can work without logging IPs, sure they see it but that doesn't mean they have to store it. Like when you see messages on Snapchat (unless you screenshot) they're gone from your end
I don’t really see how logging someones IP Address is required for an email service to function, could you explain what I’m missing? The only time you need someones IP address would be while communicating, and nothing should require you to log that.
The server receives a packet of information. Then where is it supposed to distribute? That's when IP address comes in to identify the intended owner. Without ip address you can not have direct communication
When I heard the news earlier i immediately thought of mental outlaw
i wonder what is the case with proton VPN. cause its a genuenly great VPN especially since its free and has helped me over come an insane amount of cencorship from the iranian government . i cant simply replace it either since the service is soo good that all the other VPNs just never work .
It's good enough for bypassing censorship, torrenting, remaining fairly anonymous etc.
I would not use vpns alone if you're doing anything above that. But for the overwhelming majority of people they are not. So it doesn't matter.
I don't think the Swiss authorities would comply with a request from Iran. VPNs are more secure than not using a VPN. Tor is probably a better option. Tor is monitored by the American government, and the U.S. absolutely won't comply with whatever Iran wants.
While the IP's can be logged and on Proton's end IMAP or SMTP can be read in the clear you can pre-encrypt your messages with PGP/GPG so that only the intended recipient can decrypt the messages and read them. While this might be 100% it should add another layer of difficulty for anyone trying to read the info...
Might not have helped the person taken for truancy in the end...
Might make it more difficult overall because more and more people may need to learn how to use PGP/GPG too...