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Pro Colorist Explains: CSTs vs Resolve Color Management
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
- Should you use CSTs (Color Space Transforms) of Resolve Color Management? I'll answer this (it might be surprising), and then I'll show you how I use the option I prefer.
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good refresh. many times we get too much info (especially when learning new stuff) because we are all in our own journey. we hear the same thing 6 months a part, it will hit differently. Good stuff.
"many times we get too much info"
This really resonates with me. Not to mention the information overlap from the same channel. This isn't to say that it's a bad thing necessarily but very few channels like Cullen's, know how to handle that deftly.
I had assumed that they are the same, but I appreciate the proof laid out clearly.
We enjoy your videos. Thanks for covering this topic, it helps to clarify a point that a lot of people get confused about. Thanks Cullen.
Thank you!
Thank you Cullen - Not new news. BUT always useful to hear you working methodology and the reasons behind your working concepts. Your group application of CSTs confirmed my own methods for multi-cam grading.
Great information. The color management that Resolve does is excellent and used even on our biggest features. The auto color management is good for many projects. It takes some knowledge to set up the CSC nodes to match the RCM full automatic mode.
The node based approach gives you flexibility when cameras or footage is not properly supported by the built in transforms. As well it gives flexibility on using output luts. This is typically how we utilize the resolve tools as it provides the consistent built in help with color management, but can be customized if something weird comes along.
Great info! Thanks Joseph.
Thanks Joseph!
I started using the 'group' function recently and have found it to be helpful and efficient. I am also a fan of node-based color grading, I tried the Resolve color management system for a while but the node-based structure works better for me. Thank you for posting this video.
Great demo to show the differences. Personally like using node based management but love having both options available.
Dude, this is the video I've been wondering about for a long time. Thank you!
Wonderful information Kelly. I am beginning to use DaVinci Resolve and learning some important stuff is really helpful especially to color grade multiple clips at the same time. I initially thought you would like DaVinci Color Management better as you have an array of DaVinci Keyboards and other color management tools. Thanks for sharing.
Very helpful Mr. Kelley. I’ve always wondered if there was a difference. Thank you
Thanks for the refresh and confirmation they’re both the same. A related aspect I’m not as clear on when using Group CST is where to place a LUT for a particular look. Especially when the LUT is made for Rec709 footage.
If the LUT is made for 709, you’d place it after the CST that outputs to Rec 709.
For example, my first node is always a CST that converts my log footage to DWG (Davinci Wide Gamut and Davinci Intermediate) then I have 6-7 nodes after for color grading, and then finally my last CST that’s converts it from DWG to Rec 709.
So you’d add another node after the CST converting DWG to 709 and add the LUT on.
@@nowhereland_2 thank you. That makes sense, and that’s what I’ve done at the clip level. I wasn’t sure if this would be same at the Group level as an Out CST as well.
A little more detail to finish. Round trip past the RD3 clip to prove the point on all clips.
Also, perhaps compare with using camera manufacturer LUTs for the previously poorly informed - who might mistakenly double up in colour management. In another forum that I lurk in, colour management double up problem is surprisingly common. And an easy trap to fall into.
Cheers. Was looking forward to your next drop of wisdom.
i think the point has been proved.
Awesome explanation
Cullen.
Thank you. This is extremely helpful!
Great video! thanks for sharing. I have some questions to ask you.
What happens if the timeline has graphic files or different cameras, wouldn't it be better to handle it at the clip level? And secondly, can you make a CST group (as you did) and put together other groups by scenes? can a clip be in two groups? thank you so much!
This is very helpful, thanks for making videos for people like me who are still at the very beginning of the journey.
You got it Miguel!
I love love love the new setup ;)
Cullen, thanks for this
Wow man, thanks for showing how to use grouping to add the CST nodes to multiple clips without having to do it for all clips individually, huge timesaver for real!! You earned a new sub! Thanks for sharing.
Funny coincidence: Yesterday I was discussing with some other filmmakers which is better. So thank you for the short and very clear clarification! I prefer color management because of its simplicity (fewer knots, fewer sources of error when you are short on time). In normal cases (shooting in log, fairly simple color grading) I don't see any advantage in using CSTs.
Glad this was timely!
BTW I knew all you talked about because of your great previous videos.
Can you do a video how you might use the new grouping 4 dots that are available??
Good refresher!
Hi Cullen, you're one of the few colorists who outputs to Gamma 2.2. If that is so, do you also calibrate your monitor to Gamma 2.2?
Yes
Yep, I have a 2.2 preset on my monitor that I flip to when recording YT videos. For client-facing work, I still generally master in 2.4.
Thanks to your videos, I'm familiar with it, but I'll teach beginners RCM. I taught them node-based before and some got confused. RCM may be a set-it-and-forget-it way for beginners to get good results.
Much needed! Thanks.
I’m finding myself using cst more than project. Even though for ARRI raw I like the project based. I’m refreshing my Reel and playing with my original footage and the CST and group ling has been very practical
I always use the node-based workflow because I often work with graphics and lower 3rds, and the workarounds to bypass RCM or reverse the color management applied to them is more of a tedious workaround than it needs to be, especially with transitions and effects. With transitions, I end up having to use nodes anyways because I have to bypass both clips on either side of the transition because there's no way to color manage the transition itself.
try using an adjustment layer over the transition and media layers to affect them both!
Perfect explanation
"Thank you so much. I have learned a lot from you. I can't say thank you enough. It was a good refresher for me."😊
You got it!
Thanks for all
Cullen, why do you use Gamma 2.2 now when you used to use Gamma 2.4 before?
It's just a preference of him. In other videos he used to use 2.2 too for devices like iphones or ipads because these have a gama of 2.2
Yep, Brandon nailed it. Main reason is that the images I'm grading for YT demos are primarily going to be viewed on gamma ~2.2 displays, rather than gamma 2.4. For client-facing work I still primarily use gamma 2.4.
Thanks Cullen. This was indeed a useful review. I would however like to know more about your RCM custom settings, e.g. why is something your "preference". And how are your custom settings replicated in the CST version to produce the same result?
Hello Cullen!
thanks for all the very informative videos. I am trying to apply this CST workflow to footage shot Prores RAW that was then converted to cDNG. How should I be interpreting the cDNG files? Ultimately I would prefer to have my cDNG transcoded to DNxHR with logC3, and then work with that. However I can't seem to understand how I just get the cDNG files looking correct in the first place.
cheers!
Just a note: when using Davinci YRGB, in the project settings, the "timeline color space" setting will affect the CST nodes if you choose the "Use timeline" option for gamut/gamma for the node. I would never do this but it's helpful to know that they're linked that way.
I was just wondering about this. For output gamut/gamma couldn’t you just put “Use timeline” in the CST in node? As he already selected the same setting as timeline gamut/gamma in the project settings.
@InLightVFX: Can you please elaborate? So are you saying that we should never leave it as “timeline color space” ? I thought he said it didn’t matter what you set that to?? I’m a bit confused now. Thx in advance.
@@JSalas-fh9xb The color space that you choose here at 3:02 for "timeline color space" (in this case set to Davinci WG/Intermediate) is the color space that will be used in the CST node when "use timeline" is selected (which is set by default as you can see at 3:14). If you're still confused, just basically never select "use timeline" in the CST node - and then it doesn't matter what you put for the overall "timeline color space".
Great point and great discussion here. My preference is to always avoid 'Use timeline' and take the extra few seconds to explicitly state my intention for the CST...just a personal best practice
@@CullenKelly Yes, sounds like a good practice to keep things clear!
Last step is new for me. thank you
You got it!
Thanks for clarifying!
great video as usual!
question: because i sometimes have to integrate external graphics and images into my videos (which are “rec709” or at least not in a log format), i usually put my output CST on the group post-clip rather than the timeline level, and have the group assigned to the clips which share the same camera/log format, similar to what you have done here.
is there any advantage, workflow or technical, to using the timeline node graph for the output CST instead?
thanks!
One thing I have found different between the two approaches is related to qualifying. When doing so using RCM, I have no problem since it seems to qualify based on the Rec709 image (despite still working within DWG), however when using CST's, it's more difficult since it's using the, I'll say, washed out version from the DWG colorspace. I notice this when highlighting.
I prefer using CST's because it just makes it easier for me when using effects or LUTs that I prefer using in Rec709
Great points all around!
Thank you.
Why did you choose Gamma 2.2 for the output color space instead of Gamma 2.4?
Hello folks! How do you use the group post clip level of your node graph vs the timeline level? Do you use the timeline level only for the output transform or what else do you use it for? Thankful for answers.
Super helpful.
I have a question that I hope you'll be able to answer next Monday: what's your go to method for addressing conforming when starting a project? Do you recommend a specific workflow for that phase of the job? Thanks for your videos Cullen, see you on Monday!
@06:23 is there ever any reason to make adjustments (for a individual clip) before the CST? Noise reduction? Levels?
Love this thanks
You're simply the best teacher
Thanks for the love!
Hello, thank you for this video ! Why don't you put tone mapping in the "in" corrector ? Is it better to apply the Pro Mist diffusion filter effect with the diffused glow after the "out" corrector ?
Sure thing! I don't tone map at the input stage because I don't to grade an image that's already had its highlights compressed...allows me more control and speed in the grade. Regarding diffusion effects, best to place these to the left of your output transform for a number of reasons, but the most simple one is that you'll get better-looking results. Hope this helps!
Cullen, just wondering why you placed the output CST for the Log-C group in the timeline instead of the one for end of the group? With different media types that are not using Log-C would that not adversely affect them?
At the 2 minute mark, after you set up RCM with input color space ARRIlogc3, what is the reason that you had to again specify the ARRIlogC3 input color space for clips 2 through 6?
Would you be able to comment on how to use node based color management but still benefit from the new CSTs in the Fusion page? Thx Cullen.
I'll have to read up on this!
interesting that you put your out cst in timeline and not post clip, wouldn't this effect anything you add above, text, etc?
I know you can get identical results, but I am curious about which settings need to be tweaked so that the waveforms don't move.
You can see as you toggle on and off at 4:10, in the green and blue channel, a couple of small shifts. While probably not visually noticeable, I am curious what causes the different waveforms.
Definitely agree that the results can be identical and they are doing the same operations in the same way, but it seems that there is a tiny settings difference in one of them. If i ignore the image, i can tell when you are switching between by watching the waveform change.
Hello Cullen, I believe (unless I missed something), that is not true anymore that in Davinci YRGB, the timeline colorspace and output colorspace are just tags and never influence the grading. Actually, the HDR wheels are colorspace sensitive even in Davinci YRGB, so the timeline colospace has an impact in DVYRGB for that tool.
@CullenKelly Not sure if you’re aware, but the only link that is working is the RED raw film link, all others give an error. I noticed it initially in my attempt to download your E-Book…
if using the RCM instead of using CSTs, where can I know what color space I am grading? For instance: If there are two luts: 2383DWG to DWG, and 2383 Rec709, what's the correct position(node) I should place?
Basically knew all you talked about. It was nice to see you workflow, that is a great help.
thanks! so if you do Davinci Color Managed, when you start your grade, are you grading on TOP of the color space now? so wouldn't it be better to do nodes, first node being the davinci wide gamut, do the grade, then the last node being the Rec709 or whatever? then you grade in between in the larger color space right?
It works the same way, if the timeline color space is set to DaVinci wide gamut, then all of the grading is happening in that color space and Resolve is automatically converting it to Rec709 or whatever it’s set to at the very end.
You don't need an out converter, just select the timeline in WG/intermediate color space and gamma, then set up the right CST for the clip so it appears correctly on your screen. You can start grading. The Out node mathematically is not necessary. You just select the desired color space TAG on the Delivery page.
Hmm, not sure I follow here, but I can confirm there’s nothing redundant or unnecessary in the steps I’m showing here!
I think you should make a video about why you like it that way. You mention using CSTs in groups a lot but i don't ever see you doing stuff before or after the CST nodes, or changing them per shot, which would be a reason to use CSTs. Also the way you use groups seems like you are not using groups per scene or any other 'grouping' of your project. The real answer might just be that you like to see them to keep an eye on everything.
Thanks!! Finally…
I love you. thanks
I have a question about color management when working under a LUT that isn't DWG>DWG! My cinematographer is insisting I work under a LUT they used in-camera during production. This LUT takes S-Log to Rec.709. Where would I apply CSTs in this situation if I wanted to work in DWG? SLOG>DWG>SLOG>LUT?
Thanks for your help. Is it okay to output from sRGB to sRGB or sRGB to gamma 2.2? I have a normal HP Z display monitor. When I output to sRGB to sRGB, my contrast tone sets well initially. However, with Rec. 709 gamma 2.2, the contrast level looks somewhat washed out.
This is a tricky topic, but based on your description, I'd recommend targeting sRGB in your CST.
@@CullenKelly thank you, maybe you should do a short video about it. This is to target beginner colorist who can’t afford high end monitors and want some cool colors
Could you explain the reasoning behind having the output as 709 gamma 2.2 instead of 2.4? Is your monitor setup for 2.2? I understand that internet delivery likes 2.2 over 2.4. I usually do a timeline CST of 2.4>2.2...
Sure! Gamma is set to 2.2 for YT content because it matches the gamma of most of the web devices the videos will be watched on. I have a 2.2 preset on my reference monitor that I flip to when recording demos, but for client-facing work I'm still generally mastering in 2.4.
I always thought CST is better than Color Management, it all makes sense now. Tell me, does using the CST route slow down the performance of the computer or laptop? My lecture said by color managing with CSTs, it'd make my color grading performance very slow in terms of performance. True or False?
what's the difference between gamma 2.2 vs 2.4?
This is very new to me
So I’m still confused lol I thought it was gamma 2.4 not 2.2 I usually color grade my own stuff and I use s-log3.cine I was wondering if I now need to convert it to 2.2
How does this work if you have images and motion graphics in your timeline? Won't the input colour space effect the way those things look too?
Great question! Yep, in this scenario you'd want to place your output transform somewhere else. Here's a video where I break down several options: ruclips.net/video/ReHA9bhT168/видео.htmlsi=tG_3XlN6_fIl_iAU. Hope this helps!
What if you do CST, the sandwich, in the entire timeline? I have experienced that the results are different if we use it in the timeline or clip by clip
You could do this, but then you'd effectively be grading in your camera space rather than your working space, which essentially removes the benefit of using the working space at all. Hope that helps!
I'm thinking if every shot in your timeline is of the same camera and format, RCM may be the better choice? ..as CSTs would be the better choice if there were multiple camera formats etc on the timeline? ..saves time .. 🤔
Thanks for the video!
Only question is - why not use the "CST Out" node in the "Group Post-Clip" tab vs. the "Timeline" tab as shown in the video? Since using the "CST Out" on the entire timeline would then affect the whole project vs. affecting only the assigned group clips we need, right?
You got it! And great question: reason is because I actually want the 'Out' CST to affect everything, not just the one group. Everything will be mapped into DWG from its original camera color space, and from there everything will receive that same transformation to get out to display space. Hope this helps!
I've seen all colourist doing this. or a clip based CST. But for most of us who have to do everything from editing to color, graphics and subtitles working in groups is way more efficient.
@@daniellrodriguezs2308 Great point! I actually did a full video looking at different places you can put your output transform depending on your needs/preference: ruclips.net/video/wma5NvhbNUk/видео.html
@@CullenKelly found it right after I left this 😂 thanks for leaving the link though! I like the shared nodes as well for things that cannot be done in a post group clip like for example Luma mates. I found some cool effects with it but unfortunately cannot be applied to pre or post clips adjustments so I found shared nodes works just fine.
Hai Cullen, appreciate all your videos. But maybe this question little bit noob question. What happen if the CST In and Out placed on Timeline not group? is it the same method? Are the CST In always in Group level, or we can do in Timeline level? Thanks Cullen.
Hey Rudolf! You can totally place your 'Out' CST in Group Post-Clip instead of at the Timeline level...only catch is that you need to manually place it in that spot for each of your groups. Here's a video where I do a full breakdown of the different places you can put your output/macro-level transform: ruclips.net/video/ReHA9bhT168/видео.htmlsi=mWBtZypcPEupPQ-C
Hope this help!
@@CullenKelly thank you so much Cullen. I trully thankfull with all your content. I was start color grading from 0 and learn a lot from your channel. Im not profesional colorist (yet) but i'm learning so much from you. Thank you.
💥My favorite process for working with color is to use CST. This way I see the color correction process better and it is more logical in terms of placement and legibility of the work stages. When managing DaVinci's color, the process of observing the step-by-step tracking of the work is cut off here.
Yep, I'm with you on this!
Are you using linear gamma on the Prim node or just luminosity? Sorry I know is off topic but I got a bit confused.
Hey! No, I'm not using either of these as my default
Please cover DRTs (like JP's 2499) in your upcoming AMA👍
Great suggestion! This is coming for sure
lmao, you got me with the title :D
Ok, so you customize the RCM? What happens if you just use the full auto option? Another question; where would you put Noise Reduction using your system? before or after the pre-clip CST?
Yep, you can customize RCM...if you use the auto options, you're basically just letting Resolve make best guesses. Re noise reduction, I'd place it after the pre-clip CST...you generally don't want to do anything before this node. Hope this helps!
@@CullenKelly Thanks, yes iy helps
Does it affect how the curves or the gamma or the HDR knobs affect the picture? or is it the same values both ways. I get all confused on this color stuff.
Sorry, not sure I follow your question?
@@CullenKelly oh nevermind i think im just making things complicated for myself, i think its just the same.
One more stupid question; why gamma 2.2, and not 2.4 or rec709(A) on apple devices?
👏 👏 👏
It's weird in ursa mini pro
From my observation, I prefer to work with RCM because node based CST is destructive because when CST clipping, it can't be reversed and I have to use a repair node before the first IN CST. Also if I use CST node based in DWG, most tools in resolve work worse with DWG because they are designed for Rec709 and are too sensitive, Except for some like HDR which are space aware. For RCM, I can tick the Color space aware feature in the settings. Maybe I'm making a mistake somewhere, but I have an easier life with RCM:)
Hmmm, this might be worth doing some additional testing...CSTs aren't inherently more or less destructive than RCM. Also worth noting that 'Use color space aware grading tools' only affects the HDR Zones -- all other tools continue to be "color space unaware".
@@CullenKelly Thank you very much for your reply, I appreciate it very much:) You are right, space aware tools only affect HDR tools. And as for the CST destructiveness, it is just an exception for some cameras where clipping occurs and a node has to be reassigned to fix it. In the case of RCM this is not necessary. I have found an advantage of CST as opposed to RCM, when I save the LUT, the camera profile is also saved.
❤❤
Confirmed news :)
Sorry noob question: why do we need to transform to Davinci Wide Gamut & Davinci Intermediate first? Can't we just make a single CST node and convert directly from ARRI to Rec 709?
Great question! Yep, you can totally go directly from camera to display space, but having an intermediate space has a number of benefits, including being able to use the same LUTs project-to-project, regardless of the camera you shot on. Hope this helps!
I prefer Groups because I also like to see what’s going on. If I’m giving a file to someone else, it would be RCM.
Makes sense!
@@CullenKelly you taught me well 🤌
Was old news, but….. using rcm , is it as if there is a cst at the front and back? Because I do cst’s but if I used rcm’s in dwg would I still be grading as if the cst’s are at the front and back like you just had in the video? Or is is as if it’s like having it just at the end? I’ve always wondered that.
I know they both will look the same, but with resolve Color managed workflow, is there going to be a way to use the nodes that would make a difference , because sometimes I like to have nodes before csts and after, but I know you can’t use them the same. But I’m curious what you all think of the question all the same! . Thanks guys. Great community, I love the channel wel done!
Yep that's right! RCM is the equivalent of CSTs at front and back of your processing chain.
Refresher!
This technique modifies my image when I do it with videos in REC709.
Hmmm, not sure I follow? Everything we cover in this video is designed to modify your image.
This is great, but when you have a sub £1000 camera that Resolve doesn't have your camera's colour input it leaves me a little stuck.
I am wondering whether this may help you. I have a Canon EOS R. I used to just shoot in the standard or neutral setting and then import as Rec.709. However, this sometimes led to blown highlights, so I thought I would try Canon Log. When I imposed into DaVinci Resolve, I found that the only combination Canon Log input colour space and gamma combinations it offered were Canon Cinema Gamut/Log, Canon Cinema Gamut/Log2, Canon Cinema Gamut/Log3. That is fine for newer cameras like the EOS R5, but not for the EOS R which shoots in Rec.709/Log. Project settings of Canon Cinema Gamut/Log looked far too garish. Then I stumbled upon the Project Settings/Color Management check box "Use separate color space and gamma". I ticked this and then found that I could right click on the clips and set the input colour space to Rec.709 and the input gamma to Canon Log. This fixed the problem for me. You might find that this helps you too. I hope so.
RCM if all clips shot with same color space, but CST in opposite case
Nice, I like this approach!
CST!
RCM really is better as it declutters your nodes.
Whichever works best for you!
t es qu top
LUTs, however, are very much not the same as CST
Who's the amateur asking which one is better?
lessons on 8bit footages
I didnt know this thanks.
Personally, I like the control and customisability of a CST workflow but find myself using RCM on larger projects to free up the groups for creative purposes. I wish we could get a multi-layered grouping workflow in Resolve.