It is nice to see an ethical presenter. Most on UTube are not so inclined. As a retired outdoor writer I am well aware how hard it is to be ethical in one’s presentations or writing.
@@jcondon1 And the effect of different kinds of high loads (resistive, inductive, capacitive). My understanding is that high loads really separate the good from the bad generators. This video was very useful.
Very informative/educational and great comments from others versed in such things too. Looking forward to the comparison video that you mentioned (in comments) is coming later this summer.
Just a quick note about your battery connections. As a long time service manager for an RV Service center I would like to say that for a 2 12v battery parallel set up, you should always have the positive connected to one battery and the negative connected to the other battery, with of course the 2 parallel jumpers. What you have in your set up is what we call an "outrigger" connection. I don't think it would change any of your measurements but for long term use in your RV, the "outrigger" battery will, over time undercharge, and the other fully connected battery will start to run warmer. This will significantly reduce the lifetime of the batteries. The current should always flow equally and balanced through all of the batteries. This is also true for multiple 6 volt setups as well. Most large RV's for example use four 6 volt batteries, 2 banks in series and then those banks in parallel. In fact, two 6 volt batteries in series instead of your two 12 volt batteries in parallel will provide a measurably longer service life between charges over the 12's. Hope this helps.
@@jcondon1 I absolutely love your videos. You are always so calm and informative. It might be informative to try your tests with 2 of the 6 volt batteries and compare how long each would last without the charger attached, since that is what happens in RV's. No need for an inverter if plugged into shore power or on the generator, so the batteries are "on their own". Again love your videos
Very interesting "detail"; for small loads it does not matter,but for heavy loads like that,over 100 amps,it matters some, if the jumpers are not real heavy cables.
James, good to see your quality videos are finally garnering attention and you are getting samples to try. I know you will be honest and they couldn't ask for more than that. Keep up the great work.
I would recommend when you install this inverter that you use the same gauge wire you used as the jumpers to tie the batteries in parallel. It looked like 6 or 8 gauge, x2, between the batteries and the inverter in the video. You were approaching 1v drop between the inverter and the batteries with those short cables, it's only going to get worse with longer cables and they will get hot.... I enjoy the channel. Keep up the great work!
What a fascinating video! I found it most interesting and in fact went back and watching it again. The comments are equally informative and interesting as well. (Not that I understand all the technical stuff!)
Oh Great!!! Now I need to get a Tablet oscilloscope . Thanks James. every week after your videos I need a new tool. Ha Ha Ha :-) Great jab as always. Thank you.
I have a 1000 watt pure sine wave in my trailer and have done in-depth test like yours.I run a Samsung tv it takes 60 watts and blue ray player I have 2 12 volt batteries it runs all evening with very little drain on battery and now I know I’ve made right chose
I know this is an older video but regarding the voltage reading at 15:27, at least a couple of volts of that drop are from the cords. Assuming a 50' 12 AWG cord and 12.5 amps of load you have 2.17 volts of drop in the cord. To avoid measuring this cord drop you might want to run a second light duty cord just for the voltage measurements and use the heavy cord to just power the load. In short the voltage reading on the kilowatt is not a true indication of the generators voltage output. Thanks for the very interesting videos and have a great day.
This video was a great change of pace, and the icing on the cake - very useful information! Couple of things: - Was the battery being charged at the same time it was supplying current to the inverter? If so, did you notice any problems with that? - Suggestion for a related video: It's really tough to find a generator that advertises "Less than 5% THD", which seems to be the cutoff for "clean power". It would be very interesting to see the waveforms for various generators as you work on them and compare them.
Going to do a video later this summer comparing the waveform of different generator types. The charger was supplying power at the same time. No issues seen with that.
Big thanks to a great video! I just ran across it after a YEAR, but to chime in on what others have said, very thorough. Id like to see a comparison on efficiency, not only under load but idol. Manufacturers don't make any claims for that or at least I haven't seen them. Sub+
@@bbcellular I must be blind, I searched the specs and saw notging in there about idle/standby current draw. Very important figure for an off grid setup.
Would love to see you do more electronics work on your channel. With some basic lab equipment like benchtop oscilloscope, signal generator, benchtop multimeter, variac, a few things like that… And you would be amazed at the things you can fix! And similar to the device in your video… There are extremely well-made pieces of test equipment being made in China these days… So you don’t have to spend thousands on HP or tektronix lab gear. You’re so good at explaining and teaching it would be a joy to watch you tackle more complex electronics and PCB component level board repairs. While teaching troubleshooting and how to track down faulty components on circuit boards… To repair these devices.
I am slowing picking up more equipment. Would love to get into PCB repair. Soldering has always been my weakness, but also do not have the proper equipment so maybe I am not as bad as I think.
I would really like to see you compare a range of generators of all three types to show how the waveform looks at low load and high continuous load so we can see what we are feeding our homes and RVs.
Nice setup with the batteries the amp clamp and multimeter and the Occiliscope and the battery charger thats a re branded Mac Charger @3:20 @James Condon
@@jcondon1 Mac sales that same charger in Green all models that are that shape that are grey are made by a company called clore Automotive they make the grey model you have as well as all variants on amazon and the green model that Mac tool sells very good units 👍
I have two 2000 watt pure sine wave inverters, purchased from Ebay vendor reliablepower several years ago for about $250 each. One is primary on our solar-charged "Wait until daylight" backup power system (the other one is the backup for it) and the 12 volt, 420AH nattery bank provides 8 to 20 hours of power depending on the season. Running the 460 watt blower on the gas central heat moves the time closer to 8 hours. Running just the fridge, kitchen counter outlets (charging phones, tablets and laptops and having light for preparing food) and some LED lighting moves the time closer to 20 hours. We might also power the freezer or the internet equipment and the home network. I consider this backup system a "Wait until daylight" system because I'm not out in a thunderstorm or in the dark shoveling 7" of snow at 30F to get a generator from the shed out back. The power co-op's sine wave isn't as good as what the inverter produces. We don't have a lot of long outages, although we've had one 16 hour outage (before the current system and running things on an OLD Coleman 1850 watt generator) and one 12 hour outage (after the current system was operational and a much nicer event). We do have frequent short outages - being 2+ miles of tree-lined road away from the substation that supplies us means the aerial cable has many opportunities for encounters with nature ;-) The most recent outage was almost two hours a couple of nights ago but, even after reporting the outage with their app, no notice of estimated restoration time or any other info (their online outage page isn't any better). An outage that begins with the lights flickering and a GROAN! from the transformer across the street (twice!) isn't likely to be restored in the 30 minutes I usually wait before switching to the backup system so I went ahead and turned it on and flipped the transfer breakers. Much easier to go down the steps to the basement and flip a few switches than to go outside to get a generator ;-)
My 2c? Rather go 48V, the higher you go on the DC side the lower the current draw on your batteries. Having thicker cables on the DC side is a definite bonus the reason for that is, the ripple that comes from the invertor when under load increases proportionally to the current being drawn, the thinner your cable the higher the ripple, so not only is the current draw going to heat up your cables but the resistance in your cables increases because of the ripple. As for the Honda, that sine-wave change is due to there being no load and the engine floating so the wave form is not stable because of the phasing going on....... Thanks James Good review....
Jim, I plan to go with a solar powered system, and I have 4 24v panels and no batteries as of yet. I have a diesel engine to run a 24v alternator to cover cloudy days. I have my charge regulators and a couple smaller inverters, plus a couple ups's to function as inverters. I'm looking at buying a farm that was Amish built 110 years ago, but has been wired for phone and electric as the two homes were rented out. If I buy this small farm, I will have to redo everything in both homes due to the likelihood of lead paint, and the one house needs some major changes to the upstairs as it's not well designed. The out buildings are in relatively good shape for their age. The aforementioned power equipment will be just a starter for my shop, and I'll need more panels for when I do welding and woodworking (not in the same building), I may get a diesel generator to power my welder at some point, so I can weld out in the field if need be.
Looking at the waveform of the cheap "modified sine" inverter, I think your oscilliscope input was set to "AC coupled". If you set it to "DC coupled" you should see something more like the modified sine drawing you showed.
I bought three UPS by APC (Schneider Electric) rated at 1500W each, and very good they are. Intended for IT applications, the output is TSW and exceptionally clean and stable, but the downside is the rate of discharge of the indwelling batteries. Intended originally to give business owners time to save their work and shut down their computers without losing any important data. They can be supplied from bigger 'off-board' batteries to run longer, and are well capable of keeping us on power through a typical outage. Inverters are very handy where noise might be an issue, especially if there are other residencies nearby. Trouble is, fixing them isn't as easy! - That looks like a decent little inverter you have there. The Hz should remain stable regardless of load since it's generated in an electronic oscillator which drives the power inversion as a separate process. As long as the oscillator receives adequate voltage, it will run at the correct frequency. If the battery voltage drops beyond a predetermined value, the oscillator stops running, so it's either correct Hz, or no Hz at all.
Was impressed with this inverter. The loudest thing was the microwave and the quiet Honda inverter generator. Just need a good battery bank and a means to charge the batteries.
How are you making the connection from the scope to the power cord? I've tried looking at several YT videos, but they are so confounded and never quite get to the point. I think they are coming from a scope connected to the mains and measuring a power cord connected to the mains.
Hi. I like your videos. But one comment to the usage of an oscillascope. You need to switch your oscillascope to DC. The use of DC and AC is a bit missleading if you are used to a multimeter. AC mean it add a small capacitor in the line. There are some cases, where it is usefull (eg. if you want to get rid of DC portion of a signal like if you want to see what ripple causes the inverter on you battery) but normaly you can use DC. In your case the frequency is so low (61Hz is very low from an oscillascopes point of view), that the inline capacitor is charching faster than the signal is. From what I can see in your video I guess below 500Hz you get disortions.
Very interesting, also quite a surprise. That inverter looks to be very good. The Honda was a bit disappointing. Honda claim their inverter generators output AC as clean as utility power, your test shows differently! Do you not have the bigger Honda inverter generator? Now that would be really interesting to see how it compares!
To be fair, that Honda probably has many thousands of hours on it. A new one might be better. I plan on doing another waveform test like that with different generator types.
sorry my friend the "used" Honda has much better sine wave than the utility power, just put the oscilloscope on utility power and you will see how bad the shape it is with extra spikes and twists, because on utility power different simultaneously consumer devices distort the shape...
This is interesting. Never seen inverter wave form in a collective manner, from good bad to ugly. One thing I have not seen and is craving for seeing is - inverter ac input versus ac output wave form w/wo loading. Essentially coming off same unit, such as Honda eu2000.
@@jcondon1 thanks in advance. I forget to mention this. Oscilloscope inputs are single ended referencing to signal-ground. So it cannot handle differential signal at the inverter input when ch2 is hooked to inverter output. Unless we remove the probe on ch2 use only ch1. I hope you are not reading this in hospital.
I have a 3Kw German inverter generator hooked up to a large Computer UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) with 4 large batteries. The output from a UPS is as near perfect as ever needed and should the generator fail it takes over for around 4 hours at 2000wW /250V. I just happened to have both so why not.
From what I can see, the inverter in the Honda U-2000 may have bad capacitors. The alternator bolted to the engine puts out 3 phase power at a rather high frequency, which passes through a 6 diode full bridge rectifier, then, into a filtering capacitor. If that capacitor is bad, the voltage may drop too low during the current peaks drawn by the sinewave output stage, and if that voltage sags below ~170 volts, the output stage clips, just like a class "D" audio amplifier. Because the inverter uses its own frequency generator, it doesn't matter what the actual engine speed is. The output frequency does not change with load. The engine does vary. If a peak pulse coming from the alternator hits at the same time as the peak of the output, you get a full amplitude pulse. If the inverter output peaks during a zero-crossing of the alternator, it may not. That's what causes those ripples. The capacitor is sized to maintain the minimum DC voltage necessary for a pure sine wave under load, but, if that capacitor is bad, it can't provide the reserve power to do that. Because the alternator is 3 phase, the zero crossing actually occurs at a minimum of 1/2 the peak voltage of the alternator, so the output of the inverter never drops out, but, it is dirty I don't think it's possible to take the inverter apart to replace the big electrolytic filter capacitor. I tried, but the inverter was "potted", so there is no access to the internal components. That's done to protect from moisture and vibration from the engine. If that's the case, the only solution is to replace the inverter module, or, just run it as is, knowing that it will not produce a clean sine wave under heavy load.
How about the same scope display with a regular generator. The sine wave comes from the rotation of the coil through the magnetic field. I would think the basic waveform should be pretty good, maybe with some more noise on it.
these CNSWIPOWER inverters have been looking really good, seen several yt reviews of them and all positive next, maybe you can crack it open and check out the electronics?
Is a high frequency inverter, so this is why is cheaper (and Chinese brand) than low frequency one witch have a large (usually toroidal) transformer inside. This type of inverter are not so rugged like the low frequency ones because transistor drive directly the load not through a buffer transformer, so shorts, inductive voltage spike will destroy this inverter..
Hi James, I don't know if you are going to make a solar electric generator, it is a very good idea to not depend on gasoline in an emergency, if you are going to do it I would like to see how you build it ... thank you friend! greetings from Puerto Rico...😄👍👍👍👍👍 using Google translate
If you want to get an inverter, figure your inverter size to be 66% higher capacity. If you know you will be powering 100 amps of loads, then ONLY employ 300 amp capability; not more than that, and not less than that percentage. It's why you really need several different inverters for various loads.
Not sure that Honda EU2000 you have is in the best of shape. It's been put through the mill. Judgement on that particular unit vs the battery inverter might not be completely accurate.
It is inductive and resistive loads. I have never heard of a capacitive load but Iknow what you meant. The drill is inductive the heater is resistive. II am also a former radar maintenance. Chief and electronics instructor.
Resistive and inductive are the most common loads for sure, but with all the complex electrics and switch mode power supplies capacitive loads are a bigger issue now.
@@jcondon1 capacitors charge up and then just sit there. In that way the are more like 👍 nductve loads with a surge current, albeit small when compared to inductive loads
I have a basic , 5000 watt generator. Not sine wave. Can I use that with the 80-60 AMP charger that is built into my Pure Sine Wave,5000 watt UPS , INVERTER/CHARGER, WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSFER SWITCH?
80-60 AMP @ how many volts? As long as the charger pull less then 5000 then technically you can use it to charge the UPS. You want to make sure the generator is brushed. Brushless generators have a very dirty power output and can cause damage. Brushed generators are better, but still considered dirty so there is some risk.
Something's really wrong with the oscilloscope waveform at ~12:39. Looks like the probe has a bad ground lead or connection. This may have also been the case on the Honda. I have a $200 1kW honda-knockoff and it's waveform looks much better. Thanks for the vid!
I agree something may have been off. Going to do another video later this summer computing the waveform of several different generator types. Will try the inverter generator again. I have a couple others I could try if the EU2000 still looks off.
Yeah, defenitely a loose connection. What you see on the scope is a capacitive coupling to the squarish output of the inverter. So, James, .... today you have to have dinner in the garage ? 😉 The first one is a great looking inverter. With lots of ooompf, being able to start the microwave. The 150W one is a good one to keep in your car. This type of inverter is very well suited for smps, like laptop chargers. With the Honda, what you see on the scope is interference between the 60Hz from the Honda and your local grid. Nothing to worry about. Is your scope running from an internal battery ?
It was interesting to see the waveform on the Honda hunt around till it had a load to stabilize. Very cool. Used them for yrs never thought to observe the waveform. I'm bout to purchase the inverter though. Cswi trutyyt blah blah whatever they're labeling it haha. Is it still functional or have you sent it back already?
The amount of people(over here in Australia anyway) that think they can run an Inverter off 1 or 2 ~130a/h Batteries & expect them to cope is astonishing!
I am not sure if this will help but, it is like that everywhere, not just Australia. Someone was asking on a vendor's website about connecting a 12v 2,000 lbs rated winch to the car's dash 12v outlet.
The more batteries the better. Need a good bank and a good means to charge them to run at 2000 watts for any period of time. Was surprised that I made it cooking that meal. Not due to the inverter, but only two batteries.
At 3000 watts you will be pulling 62.5 amps DC. The gauge wire depends on how long the wire is and the type of wire used. Would say the minimum is 6 AWG. 2 AWG would be safer. There are calculators online to help you www.omnicalculator.com/physics/dc-wire-size
It is nice to see an ethical presenter. Most on UTube are not so inclined. As a retired outdoor writer I am well aware how hard it is to be ethical in one’s presentations or writing.
Thanks John
You’re finally getting noticed. it’s about time!!! Good job!
Very interesting! It would be interesting to see the waveform on a non-inverter generator such as a Storm Responder.
Later this summer will compare an inverter generator to brushed generator with and without an AVR as well as a brushless.
@@jcondon1 look forward to seeing that!
@@jcondon1 And the effect of different kinds of high loads (resistive, inductive, capacitive). My understanding is that high loads really separate the good from the bad generators. This video was very useful.
@@laxtimercom Don't forget duty cycle.(inverter)
That second test showed a sawtooth sine wave A sawtooth occurs when the only the “up ramp” of each signal is directed to the output. Great video.
Hi I have been following you for a while and this is great I didn’t quite understand the whole system before and now I do thank you.
Very informative/educational and great comments from others versed in such things too. Looking forward to the comparison video that you mentioned (in comments) is coming later this summer.
Just a quick note about your battery connections. As a long time service manager for an RV Service center I would like to say that for a 2 12v battery parallel set up, you should always have the positive connected to one battery and the negative connected to the other battery, with of course the 2 parallel jumpers. What you have in your set up is what we call an "outrigger" connection. I don't think it would change any of your measurements but for long term use in your RV, the "outrigger" battery will, over time undercharge, and the other fully connected battery will start to run warmer. This will significantly reduce the lifetime of the batteries. The current should always flow equally and balanced through all of the batteries. This is also true for multiple 6 volt setups as well. Most large RV's for example use four 6 volt batteries, 2 banks in series and then those banks in parallel. In fact, two 6 volt batteries in series instead of your two 12 volt batteries in parallel will provide a measurably longer service life between charges over the 12's. Hope this helps.
Thanks for the information, good to know. My RV had the batteries connected in parallel the same way I did it in the video. Will have to change that.
@@jcondon1 I absolutely love your videos. You are always so calm and informative. It might be informative to try your tests with 2 of the 6 volt batteries and compare how long each would last without the charger attached, since that is what happens in RV's. No need for an inverter if plugged into shore power or on the generator, so the batteries are "on their own". Again love your videos
Very interesting "detail"; for small loads it does not matter,but for heavy loads like that,over 100 amps,it matters some, if the jumpers are not real heavy cables.
James, good to see your quality videos are finally garnering attention and you are getting samples to try. I know you will be honest and they couldn't ask for more than that. Keep up the great work.
Thanks Scott
I would recommend when you install this inverter that you use the same gauge wire you used as the jumpers to tie the batteries in parallel. It looked like 6 or 8 gauge, x2, between the batteries and the inverter in the video. You were approaching 1v drop between the inverter and the batteries with those short cables, it's only going to get worse with longer cables and they will get hot.... I enjoy the channel. Keep up the great work!
It's always great to have an oscilloscope output reading on inverters and inverter generators. That is definitely the next tool I want to invest in!
Learning something each time thanks for sharing James 👍
What a fascinating video! I found it most interesting and in fact went back and watching it again. The comments are equally informative and interesting as well. (Not that I understand all the technical stuff!)
Great information James , very well done . Thank you for another lesson
WOW them go out of stock fast haha. Thanks for testing the product!
Looks like a good unit James ! ENJOYED..
that was such a good review! thanks a lot! 👍
The weird waveform seen on the stepped sine wave inverter is because the probe coupling was set to AC.
Thank you, that was educational
Thanks James, I have wondered what kind of sign wave these inverter looked like.
Oh Great!!! Now I need to get a Tablet oscilloscope . Thanks James. every week after your videos I need a new tool. Ha Ha Ha :-) Great jab as always. Thank you.
Hi James your video was very educational and well informative a good class to sit mate
Thanks Dean
Interesting. Very informative. Great video.
I have a 1000 watt pure sine wave in my trailer and have done in-depth test like yours.I run a Samsung tv it takes 60 watts and blue ray player I have 2 12 volt batteries it runs all evening with very little drain on battery and now I know I’ve made right chose
Great info Doc, just happen to need a new inverter, thanks
Pretty cool video @James Condon
would be a nice set up with a couple solar panels to supply the batteries. Thanks for all you do very good content
Neat buddy. Love this vid (a little different than normal)
Thanks 👍
Good vid, enjoyed it, thanks.
Very informative that 2000 watt inverter did better than I thought it would. Thanks
No problem 👍
I know this is an older video but regarding the voltage reading at 15:27, at least a couple of volts of that drop are from the cords. Assuming a 50' 12 AWG cord and 12.5 amps of load you have 2.17 volts of drop in the cord. To avoid measuring this cord drop you might want to run a second light duty cord just for the voltage measurements and use the heavy cord to just power the load. In short the voltage reading on the kilowatt is not a true indication of the generators voltage output. Thanks for the very interesting videos and have a great day.
This video was a great change of pace, and the icing on the cake - very useful information! Couple of things:
- Was the battery being charged at the same time it was supplying current to the inverter? If so, did you notice any problems with that?
- Suggestion for a related video: It's really tough to find a generator that advertises "Less than 5% THD", which seems to be the cutoff for "clean power". It would be very interesting to see the waveforms for various generators as you work on them and compare them.
Going to do a video later this summer comparing the waveform of different generator types. The charger was supplying power at the same time. No issues seen with that.
@@jcondon1 Looking forward to it, thanks!
actually there are many inverter generators that advertise less than 5% thd
Wow your review is 👌. Finally, you got a really good 2000 watts inverter for free, excellent for you. 👍
Big thanks to a great video! I just ran across it after a YEAR, but to chime in on what others have said, very thorough. Id like to see a comparison on efficiency, not only under load but idol. Manufacturers don't make any claims for that or at least I haven't seen them. Sub+
Idle consumption is listed in the specs.
@@bbcellular
I must be blind, I searched the specs and saw notging in there about idle/standby current draw. Very important figure for an off grid setup.
I'm impressed them batteries held up on the microwave 👏👌 nice inverter
Me too
Would love to see you do more electronics work on your channel. With some basic lab equipment like benchtop oscilloscope, signal generator, benchtop multimeter, variac, a few things like that… And you would be amazed at the things you can fix!
And similar to the device in your video… There are extremely well-made pieces of test equipment being made in China these days… So you don’t have to spend thousands on HP or tektronix lab gear.
You’re so good at explaining and teaching it would be a joy to watch you tackle more complex electronics and PCB component level board repairs. While teaching troubleshooting and how to track down faulty components on circuit boards… To repair these devices.
I am slowing picking up more equipment. Would love to get into PCB repair. Soldering has always been my weakness, but also do not have the proper equipment so maybe I am not as bad as I think.
I hope you include your Honda EU6500is in your generator comparison video. I would be interested in that.
Great video.
I would really like to see you compare a range of generators of all three types to show how the waveform looks at low load and high continuous load so we can see what we are feeding our homes and RVs.
I have same 3000 watts pure sine wave inverter love it 48V DC
Thanks you! I'll be getting that oscilloscope! Any tips on how to connect it to the 120VAC output?
Very educational.
Welcome back.
Very interesting video! Tks.
👍 Danke fürs Hochladen!
👍 Thanks for uploading!
👍 Very good and beautiful, thank you!
👍 Sehr gut und schön, danke!
Your wife back in the house,. James.... where's the microwave???? 🤣🤣🤣🤣😎😎😎😎 Great video. Very informative. Thank you.👍
Would be interesting to see the waveform difference with the generator on eco mode vs eco mode off.
I'm looking for a scope like that. Nice
Nice setup with the batteries the amp clamp and multimeter and the Occiliscope and the battery charger thats a re branded Mac Charger @3:20 @James Condon
Did not know about the re-branded Mac charger. Good deal.
@@jcondon1 Mac sales that same charger in Green all models that are that shape that are grey are made by a company called clore Automotive they make the grey model you have as well as all variants on amazon and the green model that Mac tool sells very good units 👍
I have two 2000 watt pure sine wave inverters, purchased from Ebay vendor reliablepower several years ago for about $250 each. One is primary on our solar-charged "Wait until daylight" backup power system (the other one is the backup for it) and the 12 volt, 420AH nattery bank provides 8 to 20 hours of power depending on the season. Running the 460 watt blower on the gas central heat moves the time closer to 8 hours. Running just the fridge, kitchen counter outlets (charging phones, tablets and laptops and having light for preparing food) and some LED lighting moves the time closer to 20 hours. We might also power the freezer or the internet equipment and the home network. I consider this backup system a "Wait until daylight" system because I'm not out in a thunderstorm or in the dark shoveling 7" of snow at 30F to get a generator from the shed out back.
The power co-op's sine wave isn't as good as what the inverter produces. We don't have a lot of long outages, although we've had one 16 hour outage (before the current system and running things on an OLD Coleman 1850 watt generator) and one 12 hour outage (after the current system was operational and a much nicer event). We do have frequent short outages - being 2+ miles of tree-lined road away from the substation that supplies us means the aerial cable has many opportunities for encounters with nature ;-) The most recent outage was almost two hours a couple of nights ago but, even after reporting the outage with their app, no notice of estimated restoration time or any other info (their online outage page isn't any better). An outage that begins with the lights flickering and a GROAN! from the transformer across the street (twice!) isn't likely to be restored in the 30 minutes I usually wait before switching to the backup system so I went ahead and turned it on and flipped the transfer breakers. Much easier to go down the steps to the basement and flip a few switches than to go outside to get a generator ;-)
Very good efficiency. The drill draws 16.1 watts, the inverter draws 16.8 amps. (At 06:35)
My 2c? Rather go 48V, the higher you go on the DC side the lower the current draw on your batteries. Having thicker cables on the DC side is a definite bonus the reason for that is, the ripple that comes from the invertor when under load increases proportionally to the current being drawn, the thinner your cable the higher the ripple, so not only is the current draw going to heat up your cables but the resistance in your cables increases because of the ripple. As for the Honda, that sine-wave change is due to there being no load and the engine floating so the wave form is not stable because of the phasing going on....... Thanks James Good review....
Defenitly impressed with the inverter the sign wave a ton more pure then the Honda inverter generator that was un expected @James Condon
Was expecting the Honda to look as good if not better. Will do a test later this year with my Honda EU6500 and the oscilloscope.
@@jcondon1 I agree I thought the Honda sign wave would of better a ton better was unexpected for sure
Jim, I plan to go with a solar powered system, and I have 4 24v panels and no batteries as of yet. I have a diesel engine to run a 24v alternator to cover cloudy days. I have my charge regulators and a couple smaller inverters, plus a couple ups's to function as inverters. I'm looking at buying a farm that was Amish built 110 years ago, but has been wired for phone and electric as the two homes were rented out. If I buy this small farm, I will have to redo everything in both homes due to the likelihood of lead paint, and the one house needs some major changes to the upstairs as it's not well designed. The out buildings are in relatively good shape for their age.
The aforementioned power equipment will be just a starter for my shop, and I'll need more panels for when I do welding and woodworking (not in the same building), I may get a diesel generator to power my welder at some point, so I can weld out in the field if need be.
Looking at the waveform of the cheap "modified sine" inverter, I think your oscilliscope input was set to "AC coupled". If you set it to "DC coupled" you should see something more like the modified sine drawing you showed.
I bought three UPS by APC (Schneider Electric) rated at 1500W each, and very good they are. Intended for IT applications, the output is TSW and exceptionally clean and stable, but the downside is the rate of discharge of the indwelling batteries. Intended originally to give business owners time to save their work and shut down their computers without losing any important data. They can be supplied from bigger 'off-board' batteries to run longer, and are well capable of keeping us on power through a typical outage.
Inverters are very handy where noise might be an issue, especially if there are other residencies nearby. Trouble is, fixing them isn't as easy! - That looks like a decent little inverter you have there. The Hz should remain stable regardless of load since it's generated in an electronic oscillator which drives the power inversion as a separate process. As long as the oscillator receives adequate voltage, it will run at the correct frequency. If the battery voltage drops beyond a predetermined value, the oscillator stops running, so it's either correct Hz, or no Hz at all.
Was impressed with this inverter. The loudest thing was the microwave and the quiet Honda inverter generator. Just need a good battery bank and a means to charge the batteries.
The Honda's waveform looked alright, certainly clean enough for electronics, TV laptop phone what have you
Nice information
Put your scope on DC coupling and it will probably look more like a square wave.
Wonder what input current it draws with no load on the output ??
How are you making the connection from the scope to the power cord? I've tried looking at several YT videos, but they are so confounded and never quite get to the point. I think they are coming from a scope connected to the mains and measuring a power cord connected to the mains.
Ive always seen the gas inverters have a inconsistent wave form under no load, but i think its made to clean up when a load is provided....
I saw the same
Show us the power from a everyday portable generator !
I would have love to seen the amps, going into the battery as they were trying to charge them back up.
Great information!
Now on to your choice of dietary supplements...😬😂😂
Could you please show how you hook up the oscilloscope to the generator?
Hi. I like your videos. But one comment to the usage of an oscillascope. You need to switch your oscillascope to DC. The use of DC and AC is a bit missleading if you are used to a multimeter. AC mean it add a small capacitor in the line. There are some cases, where it is usefull (eg. if you want to get rid of DC portion of a signal like if you want to see what ripple causes the inverter on you battery) but normaly you can use DC. In your case the frequency is so low (61Hz is very low from an oscillascopes point of view), that the inline capacitor is charching faster than the signal is. From what I can see in your video I guess below 500Hz you get disortions.
Will try that out. Will be making another video later this summer testing the wave form of several different types of generators.
Very interesting, also quite a surprise. That inverter looks to be very good. The Honda was a bit disappointing. Honda claim their inverter generators output AC as clean as utility power, your test shows differently!
Do you not have the bigger Honda inverter generator? Now that would be really interesting to see how it compares!
To be fair, that Honda probably has many thousands of hours on it. A new one might be better. I plan on doing another waveform test like that with different generator types.
sorry my friend the "used" Honda has much better sine wave than the utility power, just put the oscilloscope on utility power and you will see how bad the shape it is with extra spikes and twists, because on utility power different simultaneously consumer devices distort the shape...
I'd be interested in seeing the Firman Tri fuel generator on your oscilloscope (11 - 14% THD).
Very interesting
Interesting.
This is interesting. Never seen inverter wave form in a collective manner, from good bad to ugly. One thing I have not seen and is craving for seeing is - inverter ac input versus ac output wave form w/wo loading. Essentially coming off same unit, such as Honda eu2000.
I will make that video at some point.
@@jcondon1 thanks in advance.
I forget to mention this. Oscilloscope inputs are single ended referencing to signal-ground. So it cannot handle differential signal at the inverter input when ch2 is hooked to inverter output. Unless we remove the probe on ch2 use only ch1. I hope you are not reading this in hospital.
@10:55 your warm battery wires make sense to me. 150 amps is too much for those. They need to be shorter or thicker to carry that without [heat] loss.
Is it pretty equivalent to a Honda eu2000 if you have agm batterys?
Is your scope input ac coupled? Pass a square wave through a high pass filter (which is what ac coupling is) and you get a waveform like you saw.
I think I had a bad connection when testing the output of the modified square wave inverter.
Great video, now show us a non-inverter generator please.
I have a 3Kw German inverter generator hooked up to a large Computer UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) with 4 large batteries. The output from a UPS is as near perfect as ever needed and should the generator fail it takes over for around 4 hours at 2000wW /250V. I just happened to have both so why not.
From what I can see, the inverter in the Honda U-2000 may have bad capacitors. The alternator bolted to the engine puts out 3 phase power at a rather high frequency, which passes through a 6 diode full bridge rectifier, then, into a filtering capacitor. If that capacitor is bad, the voltage may drop too low during the current peaks drawn by the sinewave output stage, and if that voltage sags below ~170 volts, the output stage clips, just like a class "D" audio amplifier. Because the inverter uses its own frequency generator, it doesn't matter what the actual engine speed is. The output frequency does not change with load. The engine does vary. If a peak pulse coming from the alternator hits at the same time as the peak of the output, you get a full amplitude pulse. If the inverter output peaks during a zero-crossing of the alternator, it may not. That's what causes those ripples. The capacitor is sized to maintain the minimum DC voltage necessary for a pure sine wave under load, but, if that capacitor is bad, it can't provide the reserve power to do that. Because the alternator is 3 phase, the zero crossing actually occurs at a minimum of 1/2 the peak voltage of the alternator, so the output of the inverter never drops out, but, it is dirty
I don't think it's possible to take the inverter apart to replace the big electrolytic filter capacitor. I tried, but the inverter was "potted", so there is no access to the internal components. That's done to protect from moisture and vibration from the engine. If that's the case, the only solution is to replace the inverter module, or, just run it as is, knowing that it will not produce a clean sine wave under heavy load.
NICE VIDEO WHAT KINDA PICTURE ARE THOSE
James, can you provide a little more description for the Tablet oscilloscope? Maybe a model number? I will consider ordering one. Thansk
Here is the link to the one I purchased www.amazon.com/dp/B08L3FRKYF/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_P9YTAPBKPS22T16K4FZM?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Pure sign wave is always better then a Modified Sign Wave
How about the same scope display with a regular generator. The sine wave comes from the rotation of the coil through the magnetic field. I would think the basic waveform should be pretty good, maybe with some more noise on it.
That is in the works for later this summer.
i have that inverter 3000 watts pure sine wave love it 48vvot it run my table saw 15A
these CNSWIPOWER inverters have been looking really good, seen several yt reviews of them and all positive
next, maybe you can crack it open and check out the electronics?
John Daniel did a good video on this inverter and took the cover off ruclips.net/video/5P6VZbrJN6o/видео.html
Is a high frequency inverter, so this is why is cheaper (and Chinese brand) than low frequency one witch have a large (usually toroidal) transformer inside. This type of inverter are not so rugged like the low frequency ones because transistor drive directly the load not through a buffer transformer, so shorts, inductive voltage spike will destroy this inverter..
Hi James, I don't know if you are going to make a solar electric generator, it is a very good idea to not depend on gasoline in an emergency, if you are going to do it I would like to see how you build it ... thank you friend! greetings from Puerto Rico...😄👍👍👍👍👍 using Google translate
If you want to get an inverter, figure your inverter size to be 66% higher capacity. If you know you will be powering 100 amps of loads, then ONLY employ 300 amp capability; not more than that, and not less than that percentage. It's why you really need several different inverters for various loads.
Not sure that Honda EU2000 you have is in the best of shape. It's been put through the mill. Judgement on that particular unit vs the battery inverter might not be completely accurate.
His larger Honda eu6500 would be a better test
It is inductive and resistive loads. I have never heard of a capacitive load but Iknow what you meant. The drill is inductive the heater is resistive. II am also a former radar maintenance. Chief and electronics instructor.
Resistive and inductive are the most common loads for sure, but with all the complex electrics and switch mode power supplies capacitive loads are a bigger issue now.
@@jcondon1 capacitors charge up and then just sit there. In that way the are more like 👍 nductve loads with a surge current, albeit small when compared to inductive loads
@@johnclarke6647 Capacitors just sit there on a DC circuit. On an AC circuit they are constantly charging and discharging.
@@throwbo that’s not so. Capacitors charge up on a DC circuit and couple AC voltage on an AC circuit.
@@johnclarke6647 But HOW do they couple voltage? By charging up on half the cycle and discharging on the other half. So they don't "just sit there".
I have a basic , 5000 watt generator. Not sine wave. Can I use that with the 80-60 AMP charger that is built into my Pure Sine Wave,5000 watt UPS , INVERTER/CHARGER, WITH AUTOMATIC TRANSFER SWITCH?
80-60 AMP @ how many volts? As long as the charger pull less then 5000 then technically you can use it to charge the UPS. You want to make sure the generator is brushed. Brushless generators have a very dirty power output and can cause damage. Brushed generators are better, but still considered dirty so there is some risk.
Something's really wrong with the oscilloscope waveform at ~12:39. Looks like the probe has a bad ground lead or connection. This may have also been the case on the Honda. I have a $200 1kW honda-knockoff and it's waveform looks much better. Thanks for the vid!
I agree something may have been off. Going to do another video later this summer computing the waveform of several different generator types. Will try the inverter generator again. I have a couple others I could try if the EU2000 still looks off.
Yeah, defenitely a loose connection. What you see on the scope is a capacitive coupling to the squarish output of the inverter.
So, James, .... today you have to have dinner in the garage ? 😉
The first one is a great looking inverter. With lots of ooompf, being able to start the microwave.
The 150W one is a good one to keep in your car. This type of inverter is very well suited for smps, like laptop chargers.
With the Honda, what you see on the scope is interference between the 60Hz from the Honda and your local grid. Nothing to worry about. Is your scope running from an internal battery ?
@@Plons0Nard yes, the scope was running on battery.
It was interesting to see the waveform on the Honda hunt around till it had a load to stabilize. Very cool. Used them for yrs never thought to observe the waveform. I'm bout to purchase the inverter though. Cswi trutyyt blah blah whatever they're labeling it haha. Is it still functional or have you sent it back already?
Can we still buy briggs short blocks
Real men cook their food in the box lol
Now youre gonna need new batteries for your camper
hmm i wonder what household power looks like on that scope under same conditions?
In this video you can see that at 50:18 ruclips.net/video/TMzh_j_kMyk/видео.html
The amount of people(over here in Australia anyway) that think they can run an Inverter off 1 or 2 ~130a/h Batteries & expect them to cope is astonishing!
I am not sure if this will help but, it is like that everywhere, not just Australia. Someone was asking on a vendor's website about connecting a 12v 2,000 lbs rated winch to the car's dash 12v outlet.
The more batteries the better. Need a good bank and a good means to charge them to run at 2000 watts for any period of time. Was surprised that I made it cooking that meal. Not due to the inverter, but only two batteries.
The Kilowatt would have to measure true RMS voltage and current to read correctly.
what gade wire should i used 3000 what inverter pure sine wave 48V 110V -120V 60HZ
At 3000 watts you will be pulling 62.5 amps DC. The gauge wire depends on how long the wire is and the type of wire used. Would say the minimum is 6 AWG. 2 AWG would be safer. There are calculators online to help you www.omnicalculator.com/physics/dc-wire-size
What does a conventional (non-inverter) generator look like on a 'scope?
Will do a video later this summer testing the waveform on several different generators types (brushed, brushless and inverter).
im looking for 3000 Watt Pure sign Wave Inverter, looks like i may have found it.