What a breath of fresh air to watch a RUclips video about EVs that is calm and level headed. The amount of people that have been ‘activated’ by the misinformation is worrying. Rumours of pay per mile have sent the same people into a frenzy!
I’ve spent a total of 0 minutes and 0 seconds “waiting” for my car to charge this month. I used to spend roughly 30 minutes a month refuelling my gas vehicles. That whole “I can fill my car in 3 to 5 minutes” argument is getting so tired and stupid. Most cars spend most of their existence parked next to a building with electrical hookup. Do the math. It’s not hard.
Great video and facts to back up your points. What we also need to consider for people who aren't lucky enough to have off street parking is the importance of pushing employers to put in EV charging for employees. I have been nagging my employer for many many years 😂 and finally in the last year or two we have had 24 type 2 charge points with more coming....
I have waited a long time to ditch fossil fuels in any form. If we're not manipulated by the oil industry, it's politics (local to global), finance or even weather. Right now, at my home, I can make my own power. I can use it to run my house and run my car. In a few years the extra cost will be paid for. I don't see the down side, except that it will take a while for everyone else to catch up.
Greetings from Oxford. I began my BEV journey in September 2019 with a BMW i3. I still have it. I’m nearly 60 YO, and I well remember the angst I felt between ordering the i3 and taking delivery. 5 years later and the experience has been sublime, no servicing, cheap to charge from home on overnight tariff, smooth, quiet, powerful, relaxing to drive. Now at just shy of 50k miles, no signs of any loss of range. One very happy EV owner here.
Some basic facts. UK EV sales are up. Most cars are sold/leased to businesses EV or ICE. Sales worldwide of EVs are up. Sales of EVs have gone down this year in the EU, but if you were offering a lot of those cars for almost 0 cost last year with government subsidies, then this year the subsidies get removed, the sales will go down. The problem is the press and even channels like fully charged falling for the nonsense that sales have gone down, UK and worldwide they are well up.
Thanks for commenting. The naysayers are inciting a self fulfilling prophecy by increasing hesitance towards EVs. Hmmm, I wonder who would gain from the continued use of ICE? 🤔😉
I do not have home charging available, my local charge rates are 25p/kWh for 22kW and 39p at Tesla fast chargers that are local to me. To date my costs (including proportion of £90 Tesla annual membership) works out at 7.6p per mile. First couple of thousand miles has returned 4 miles per kWh.
I guess you haven't seen the recent massive market manipulation going on in Autotrader. So many pre registered EVs with delivery miles from 1-2 years ago. Lots of ghost listings with no pictures or dealer staff shots. There is massive variance between sales and registration with later being distorted by double sales on the same day. The BIK and ZEV mandate are destroying the new sales market!
Yes, I'm well aware, but the pre reg situation isn't just an EV specific issue. The whole car sales market is in free fall and there is either a massive market correction coming or a recession, or most likely both. I agree the ZEV mandate isn't the solution. More carrot and less stick would be my approach. Thanks for engaging.
Grr, Im so mad that other people are making obviously reasonable choices, and coincidentally bringing more and more affordable second-hand EVs closer to my budget. Grrr, I say
While I don't agree with this guys sentiments, he has some valid points and I'm not sure about a couple of yours. The price of public charging where I am is between 60p and 80p (BP Pulse) so this was not an unfair comment. It might be possible to find cheaper chargers but often these are the prices you will have to pay. You are comparing the miles per kWh of your MG to the average MPG which distorts the figures. The high percentage of gas guzzling 4x4's badly effects the average mpg so It would be better to use the miles per kWh of the average EV which is more like 3 instead of 4. Or if you compared to a similar size car, for a diesel would it be more like 55 to 60mpg not 45. 7p per kWh is not available to everyone, where I live the cheapest EV tariff is 14.2p per kWh plus 10p per day, plus the daytime electricity is more than for a standard tariff. If you include all these factors in your spreadsheet the cost benefits are much less. Don't get me wrong, I love my MG5 and have no interest in going back to burning fossils but we have to understand the situation is not the same for everyone.
Yes, agree. I hope I didn't gloss over the fact too much that he does have some legitimate points that are real challenges to overcome. You've outlined them nicely. I did pick my personal figures from my own vehicles just as a demonstration. I hope it just went to show a point. I would like the script to be flipped from "EVs are a niche suitable for the few" to "EVs work well for most people" There will be outliers but the majority will benefit from a switch to electric. Sorry to hear that your EV tariff is so crazy expensive where you are!
Some excellent points, well made. Always a good idea to compare like for like or you immediately lose the argument. And yes, you often end up with a higher day rate when you get an cheap over night tariff, meaning everything in the day will cost more.
I don’t hear all these claims, I don’t hear or see the claims about heat pumps. Oh maybe that’s because I haven’t bought a UK ‘news’paper since the 90’s 🤣😂
I don’t think anyone has, it tends to be online sites that make these claims, or people repeating things they’ve read on Twitter (not calling it X) and Meta and believing anything they’re fed.
Great video, a couple of clarifications. If you know you are going to use 100% Public charging then plan to get a monthly subscription to a local provider. Tesla, Ionity and others have reduced kWh prices from 35-45 pence, sometimes there is an offer from car brands for membership. If you check out offers on new and pre-reg cars you can get much lower prices. £1000's off 'List'. Many private 'buyers' get lease deals, these show up as 'fleet sales' so aren't counted in the figures correctly.
If he put the actual word he wanted to in the post (clue the middle two letters are G), it would probably be flagged by whichever platform he’s posting on.
Yes, the point you didn't disagree with - the cost of charging away from home - is the main reason I haven't gone for an EV. We can't charge in the flat that I live in and nor can 30% of UK drivers (Source: AA I think). We can only get cheaper than an ICE if we are prepared to wait 2 hours for a charge - a bit like first and second class travel.
This is a real sticking point for some of my friends and family. Many who would like to make the jump but unless they can get work place charging it doesn't look like things are going to improve any time soon!
It's actually worse than that in the UK. 30% of drivers overall don't have access to a dedicated parking space near their home, but it's 60% in cities. In the countryside people have more space and it's down to 16%. So the very place where EVs would most make sense (short commuting drives, reduce local pollution) is also the place where it's hardest to own one. I'm hugely enthusiastic about EVs, but the UK in particular has some issues it needs to resolve if it wants everyone driving an EV. Add to that the eyewatering cost of electricity in the UK (I pay 10c/ kWh in Oregon, about 8p, at home) and you've got a lot of resistance.
Five figure depreciation only occurs if you pay full retail price When new. With the discounts available right now, and when I bought mine, depreciation is much more modest. Ironically it’s difficult to point out the discounts available while still maintaining that the depreciation is high!
People reveal their bias/ignorance by skewing the exception to represent the rule. Majority facts/logic trumps exceptions. People hate change, evs are obvious choice & will be increasingly so. Let the ‘steam engine’ brigade stick to their stupidity.
A lot of flats have off street parking. These tend to be large tarmac areas impossible to have a personal EV point installed. The number of off street parking is the wrong question.
Yes, I agree this is a challenge that needs to be tackled, but hardly a difficult one compared to most engineering problems. I guess with most things it comes down to money.
The only valid point they make is if you can't charge at home then you don't save any money on fuel (not to mention it's inconvenient). So there is still some way to go to overcome those hurdles for people without driveways to own EVs. That shouldn't be blindly dismissed and needs to be addressed. Lamp post chargers, roadside chargers and even L2 supermarket chargers at cheaper rates are all options. At the moment it's hard to advise anyone without home charging to buy an EV.
Not sure where the 30% don’t have access to off street parking comes from? The important point is if the parking is dedicated to the property and is it possible to install a charging point at reasonable cost.
AND it allows access to time of day cheap rates. Relatively close street charging ticks the convenience box, but the cost box needs addressing also, otherwise you've got a two tier pricing demographic, homeowners on 8p kwh vs the rest on 45p kwh. Or ease off on the narrative that EV's are cheaper to run and just focus on the carbon / eco benefits? My 55mpg Nissan (sorry Fork you've read some of this in a previous) cost £70-75 to fill up. This gets us 550 miles. Let's call it 500. Then a long range MGZS 72.6kwh gets you on paper 273 miles? (Lets say you get 250) Public charging @ 45.p kwh is about £34.50. So 2 charge cycles get you 500 EV miles (same as my Nissan) for £69. So a £6 best case saving 🤔 Factor in potential higher VED, insurance view EV's as more costly to repair and they're typically in a higher insurance group, and bingo you are potentially worse off? The privileged with home ToD charging are getting the same 500 EV miles for around £12. Insurance is subjective, snd I've only got my own price comparisons, but in a quiet town, culdesac with garage / driveway, my Nissan SUV vs 2nd gen MGZS was £218 less expensive than the 34k mileage EV I looked at. I'd also go from my £20 Roadtax (I can't get a family Chinese meal for that) to £190 starting in 2025?! Convenience and cost, otherwise all the 'cheap to buy EV's' wouldn't effect the status quo as much as some bang on about
@@stuartburns8657 have you watched my video about EV insurance prices? I also hear whispers about the low rate of VED for ICE vehicles being scrapped at the upcoming budget. We shall see if they want to continue to use the stick rather than the carrot.
@@UpsideDownFork Yes I did and that is a somewhat (not the video) confused topic depending on who you talk to and know. My example is going back 18 months now, and of the 3 who I know with BEV's, one hardly changed (or inline with increases we've all seen regardless of drivetrain) one went up buy ~£150 (hardly life altering) but the most startling was a young lad (26) going from a performance ICE to a std M3. £900 pa increase! I consider myself financially prudent, and also research these costs as it's easy to do these days with a prospective car on autotrader, just feed the reg into your Go Compare profile and bingo..
@@UpsideDownFork I've also heard those rumours about low VED for ICE cars 🥺 Whilst I'd be vexed, I equally understand how insane it would be given an EV would potentially be paying 6.5 times more than my diesel! Another negative affecting those undecided is the expense car supplements now applying to EV's from 2025. This is a huge cost if the original vehicle price was 40k or more (former government subsidiary doesn't help) so an extra £410 for the inital 5 years? What a way to kick the fledgling EV market where it hurts eh? The expensive thing only starts for those registered from next year though I think
This month including the next two days will cost me 130 notes for over 400 miles a week. (1700 miles total estimated by end of Monday) The same commute with the missus Q3 derv is £220 a month, My Audi tt 3.2 ltr was 450 notes a month. I have my solar panels and this month has been rubbish for solar power but still cheaper than what I have had to pay out. I fitted a fast charger and charged up in 6 hours if that and away to turn the garden into a driveway as I see the benefit.
@@stuartburns8657 the Q3 is in the high 50s mpg. My old diesels I have owned before the petrol TT was in the high 50s also. The petrol TT was about 25 mpg. That along with the cheap price of 10k for my Nissan leaf from a Nissan dealer makes me feel it’s better for my use case. 👍
Fleet sales of BEV's due to far superior BIK have been a significant driving force for EV sales in the UK, certainly since subsidies were withdrawn, but even before that. This would consequently affect ICE sales considerably. UK Fleet comprises of 62+% of the market! I've seen many a YT'r exhort the virtues of EV's, and whilst I have zero doubt that in the correct circumstances, they can be financially beneficial and pratical, the reality is the vast majority of the YT's I see with EV are in large detached properties, invariably with PV, batteries and heatpumps. This is both an affluent demographic and I'd suggest an above averagely conscientious one. Pretty much every car manufacturer on the planet has stepped back from initial pledges and projections, and that's being led by sales figures, be it ICE or BEV uncertainty and indecision on the part of consumers. (I do think world wide we are teetering on the verge of a global recession mind) I'm far from Anti-EV, but I feel too much emphasis is placed on areas like inital cost, whilst ignoring practicality and ongoing running cost concerns. YES I can hear the EVangalists screaming I run my car for pennies a week, but for a lot of current ICE owners (of a lower financial statue) home charging isn't an option. Nor is it enviable having to find that extra 30-50 minutes a week seeking relatively expensive public charging. Then from 2025 the new VED, insurance (which may go up considerably) and the concerns about not being able to continue taking your EV to your local non franchise Stealership for basic repairs. THIS is a VAST market demographic, those other ICE vehicle owners who buy something between 5-15k. Some run down Leaf as an "affordable" alternative isn't going to cut it. I've enjoyed your journey with Solar, and your hearpump, but please don't turn into one of the insufferable EV preachers 🙏 No problem with you or anybody dispelling FUD, but equally I see few advocates acknowledging that EV's are still currently 'niche' For clarification EV's are (imho) at their best when: 1. Prospective owners reasonably well off - not always a necessity subject to the rest of the below. However, you every 3-4 years were in a position to replace your ICE 2. Can home charge on cheap ToD tariffs 3. Their new EV may be a company car so benefitting from the highest BIK. 4. Your former ICE was a 25-35 mpg dead tree juice guzzling abomination. 5. You did around 12k+ annual miles, and will continue to do so in the EV. 6. With the EV you now benefit from ULEZ and Congestion fees being wavered (although that perk is coming to an end) I myself an fortunate enough to live in a 4 bed detached house, and with the Wife 100% wfh, kids both at college, and me commuting a whole 7 miles round trip to work, I feel we have little (other that ecological) incentive to replace our 2 x paid off diesels. These are 50 + 55mpg. £20 & £30 pa VED. Low insurance. The main family car is Euro6 of ulez free. Fully disclosure, both are at mid 70k mileage, and we recently paid for both to have their respective timing belts / kits replaced. 5 years left on mortgage (I'm 50) and I'd rather sweat out the vehicles we own than be paying much more each year for equivalently sized and spec'd EV's. I'm 100% certain I'll own one eventually, but when it suits us financially. Sorry for the war and peace 😂
Thanks for taking the time to comment. I agree almost entirely with your points raised. I believe the FUD is creating an EV hesitancy self fulfilling prophecy. We know which parties have the most to win or lose by EV adoption or rejection. The script needs to change from "EVs are a niche suitable for the few" to "EVs are suitable for most people". Talking through my personal EV experience offline with friends and family has already converted them. Taking them for a ride down the road to demonstrate how quiet and comfortable it is. Showing them how cheap you can buy one and detailing how we charge as well as the real world range has helped at least a dozen people overcome their pre conceived fears. There are still a long list of scenarios where EVs don't make sense but this list is quickly shrinking as some of the challenges with EV adoption are finally being resolved. I'm not here to convert anyone or to shame anyone for driving petrol or diesel, I hope this video didn't come across that way. Thanks as always for contributing to the discussion!
Apologies, but going for the hard sell(!): I might have thought that £1k annual saving charging at home Vs diesel on 10k travel might tempt you (or others) to dip your toes in a cheap secondhand EV (I think @upsidedownfork spent £8.4k on his)?
@@UpsideDownFork Always a pleasure sharing and hopefully contributing to meaningful dialogue and discussion. No you didn't come across as patronising at all, but perhaps guilt of your own circumstance rose tinted glasses view point (if that isn't patronising in turn?) but then as am I to a degree.. Yes the EV situation is getting better, and I did get moderately close to getting a gen 2 MGZS EV (2nd hand) Obviously in turn my circumstances are somewhat niche in terms of our insanely low mileage requirement. However, our rather modest 2016 Nissan Qashqai (but fully spec'd) still outclassed the MGZS EV in various key metrics. This will and is getting better, but it does feel like a market stall, and not entirely due to the egregious FUD doing the rounds. In part I suspect because the 1st wave early adopters segment reached saturation point 2 years ago, but the 2nd stage of the adoption curve is misfiring. It's the key less privileged, no ability to home or street charge mass market that will sway the fight imho. Those are the numbers and volumes the manufacturers need to get into mass production as they intended. If and when street / lamppost charging is common place, I feel that would be a catalyst, assuming they could tap into cheap night rates.. I would hazard a guess that the friends and family you've influenced into moving to EV's are in a similarly fortunate (but well earned!) position. Again to labour the point, how many who typically only buy or lease a vehicle for 4-5 years (or longer) in the 5-15k (2nd hand) without home charging capability did you get to swap their ICE? I bet you could nearly count them on the fingers of Captain Hooks bad hand! 😉 Take care and enjoy your vehicle. 🙏
Renters can not easily have an EV charger, lease holders cannot easily have one either. What about about people living in flats? They may be classed as having off-street parking, as the block has a car park. Renters will need permission from the landlord, leaseholders may need permission from the freeholder. If you rent would you really want to spend money installing an EV charger everytime you had to move? I think your percentage of people with suitable off street parking for an EV charger is significantly lower than you suggest. PS I own my house, and have off street parking, but still drive my dirty diesel, and have no intention of replacing it, until it needs replacing, I do less than 8000 miles a year.
Admittedly it is variable and more nuanced to lump everyone into over simplistic groups but the video was already long enough as it is! Renters can still benefit from the OZEV grant whereas homeowners can't do. So many different situations but the narrative that EVs are only suitable for the few is false. EVs are a better experience for the majority of us.
Over in northern Ireland there is still not enough ev chargers to travel around. We charger at home at 16p kWh. Then the next ev charger that is close to our home is a BP plus,but it's 83p kWh. So we need more ev chargers and have them available to use at all times and don't have them locked away in a carpark. That's not open until after 1pm on a Sunday. My wife was not very happy at 8am in the morning,and looking to charge up.
There is no wonder that people have such negative views of EV's when you see such negativity in the press. Enjoyed the video. Only point to make for balance is that the lower priced ev chargers away from home are effectively 'destination' chargers, for my MG5 that's @ 7kWh per hour, dictated by the on board AC charger. So those who don't have home chargers or facilities at their place of work are stuck with higher 'Rapid' chargers. On that point, 'Rapid' is subjective. On our recent journey to Bath from Leeds, experienced anything from 39kWh delivery upto 80kWh...can be a lottery regardless of what their stated output is. (I know that charge rates change based on battery SOC, quoted variables based upon sub 20% soc) without access to home charging it must be frustrating. Great to see MG5 high up in What Cars reliability results. 15 months in to EV ownership and can say without doubt it's cheaper and actually more enjoyable to drive. Keep em coming 😊
If I can read the screenshots correctly, £4685/£19635 = 23.9% (petrol) and £5118/£26895 = 19.0% (BEV), so the overall point stands, just with different figures.
@@UpsideDownFork You did the percentage based off the current price rather than the original price. You did do it on both cars though, so its not toooooo bad!
When I meet someone with an EV I have been having the conversation of how they are finding it and the overall summary I have had, they are great for shorter journeys to medium journeys. Anything over a 100 miles each way they still prefer diesel and petrol. So if you do massive mileage regularly then an EV probably not the right choice for you or pick carefully, if your like the rest of us then you will be fine.
My evs range is 250 miles in the winter, 100 miles there and back is precisely what I do with a roof box camping to the lakes, or to my mum's. Even driving 300 miles to my brother's involves one stop for dinner and charging, it's no bother.
I far prefer the driving experience for any journey, charging during a necessary toilet and food stop is literally more convenient than ICE. Since it happens at the same time. Don't need to make a prep trip before hand and don't need to essentially park twice at services. Just don't pick stops with only 2 chargers at the very end of your range at 5pn like a tit.
It just what I've heard from people I did mentioned about, stopping for a pee etc and rapid charge but one wasn't really about the hassle their words not mine and the other has been put of with the rapid charging experience they have had in Wales. Their car is a Volvo ex40 and they stated plus I checked Bjorns and the around 200 mile range they get is correct. 250 mile range is good going winter what car do you have?? As I am looking at electric cars for myself
Personally I'm very happy doing long journeys, by the time it needs charging I'm ready for a decent stop anyway to stretch my legs and unstretch my bladder! I think a big issue is the ability of the car to accurately predict range though. I've got a Tesla and its range prediction has always been spot on regardless of weather, AC use etc, but I have colleagues with the iPace and a taxi driver with an MG3 who really can't rely on what the car is telling them. The taxi was hilarious - going from Heathrow to Cambridge - the driver said that we had enough range for the trip according to the car but we would only get that if he didn't turn on the AC, which on a wet day meant the car was steamed up for most of the trip! I think old school manufacturers who think heatpumps in EVs are optional are part of the problem!
Private buyers that lease are classed as business/commercial as they are owned by a company. This will have a large change on the drop in private buyers. I bought my Tesla Model 3 direct as a personal purchase. Tesla public chargers can be found at 40 pence per kWh, possibly lower. I have only used these twice in the past 6 months, but still far cheaper to run than petrol. And I have been charged in 15 minutes to continue my trip. The depreciation is roughly the same on all the cars never mind the fuel source. As EV's continue to rise at the same level then the prices of Petrol will fall faster as Diesels have started to do. With the MPG figures, they can vary massively between cars and Diesels I previously owned were nearer 40 MPG. The other thing with the 30% of homes without a driveway is that many of these will be within the towns and cities and friends of mine in these locations do not even own a car. They will rent a car when needed. Other thing to remember is that 200-300 mile capable EV's are generally only from the past 4 years, so as they become older, they will become affordable to more people. Also batteries will most of the time have a life well beyond that of the car and any that are damaged can often be repaired with a replacement cell.
Only reason we purchased a Toyota Aygo instead of a VW UP! Electric. Cant charge at home Southampton based as well local fast charger is a Instavolt at 85p/kwh 😬 Aygo does 53+ mpg so about as cheap as you can get in the petrol world.
My wife loved her little C1 (sister car) when she had it. Great little city cars! I'm not familiar with instavolt but I just had a look and they do have quite a few stations in and around Southamton and yes, eye watering prices! If I had to public charge over this way, I would probably use the chargers in the lidl car park whilst I shop.
@@UpsideDownFork yes there is a ALDI near but I work evenings/lates so only shop once every month for about 20 mins as I never eat a evening meal. I'm hoping one day the council will sort the atrocious parking out down our road to be more accommodating to the amount of cars and chuck in some chargers but that's probably a pipe dream 😅
@@Burtis89 I also don't take long shopping but a charge at Lidl could give me the excuse to buy all of the bakery goodies and sit and eat them in peace and quiet without kids trying to nick the goods! 😂
@@UpsideDownFork 🤣 brilliant I like your thinking. Glad it works for you 👍 To be fair I use my E-Bike for about 70% of my commuting/running about anyway so much greener than a EV 😅 But for the wifes commuting and thoes longer trips it would be nice to have a EV one day
@@Burtis89 good to meet a like minded person! Cycling is also my primary means of transport to get the kids to school and then take me from Rownhams down to Dock gate 20 for work. Occasionally cycling into the city or out to Romsey for a bit of shopping too. Unfortunately my wife had an accident which brought about getting an EV for her commute quicker than we expected. More details coming in a dedicated video about that. 👍
On point 5. You say it would take you a couple of hours to charge, but your car only has a 7kw AC charger. So it would take about 7.5 hours. Public AC charging is very sporadic depending on where you are. While there isn't any near me close enough to walk most of the cheaper ones (council supported) are in paid car parks which makes them expensive if all you are doing is charging the car. The cheapest free parking ones are at a Green King pub and are 65p. The closest Tesla are open to all are an hour round trip up the motorway. So it's just easiest to use the bank of 5 BP rapids on the main road. But if you live in London for example they have quite a large selection of on street charging, but this isn't yet country wide. But I do think the government should (from some future date) mandate all new cars come as standard with 22kw AC charging.
Definitely agree on 22kw ability on cars, I have a 22kw three phase charger at home and only one of my EVs charges at 22kw AC, the other one only at 11kw.
@@peterjones6640 Yes making all cars 22kw will allow the insulation of many more cheaper charging options. These could be aimed at supermarket carparks close to where many don't have off-street parking. The average driver would only need about two 30 min sessions a week.
Thanks for commenting and the correction. This video was made some time ago and I was naive to the fact that my car only had 7kW AC charging back then. Learning every day. Your charging rates go to show that the EV experience is still highly variable depending on where you live in the UK.
There is no reason to use a EV over a used ICE. The total costs are higher. Up to acteasonable yearly mileage, the total CO2 production is higher. The amount of deadly accidents is higher, especially with people walking. Less than 3% of people worldwide have this EV hobby... and if they want to, it is fine. But it is time to stop telling all the others they are better, because they are not!
@@moskitoh2651 wrong. If you do low enough miles that an ICE car has lower total cost of ownership then you should just walk or get the bus. CO2 production is accounted for within the first 10-15,000 miles of an EV. After that you make big savings. There is zero evidence to suggest more fatalities in EVs. Here's a case study for you. My 3 year old EV with 30,000 miles cost £8500 which is about the same as the equivalent ICE vehicle. It is faster and smoother so my wife and I both prefer driving it to our other cars. We can charge at home so it costs about a tenth of what our diesel does to fuel it for the same amount of travel. The only downside is that in good conditions it will do a 200mile motorway trip but in winter that could only be 150 mile before needing to charge. Fortunately for us we only do those trips a handful of times per year so 99% of the time, having an EV is way more convenient as we never need a fuel station. Good luck 👍
@@UpsideDownFork The carbon footprint of a new car is about 20 tons (iypically more for EV)! A ICE emits about 180g CO2/km. With german energy mix, an EV emits about 90g CO2/km. So above 200.000 km is the äquivalent to the difference. The first important thing to notice: Don't drive new cars! You seamed to have not read the "used"?
@@moskitoh2651Are you trying to compare a used ICE against a new EV? What's the point in that? Compare like for like i.e. new vs new or used vs used. Either way, EV wins your carbon argument by a long way. Without new cars there will be no used ones.
@@UpsideDownFork Well my current car is rising in value more than all other costs together (insurance, taxes, repairs, fuel). The worst ICE I ever had, was at 5000 EUR a year and that was a mess. It was to new, it was to "luxury" (far over 100.000 EUR new), it was to rare. If I calculate costs of the typical new EV, I never get as low as 8000 EUR, however I trick it. Tesla Model S e.g. has 11.000 EUR value loss per year in the first 5 years. That is a dramatic increase!
@@roxter299roxter7 😂 Flocking is a decorative process that involves applying short fibers to a surface that has been coated with an adhesive. The process can be done using a variety of methods, including electrostatic application, spraying, or brushing on crushed velvet.
Just in relation to the points raised (i) people objecting to EV's cite initial cost, then state that they would never buy a new vehicle, so it isn't EV's they are objecting to but the cost of new cars generally. (ii) regarding new car sales trends (SMMT), petrol & diesel sales are down partly because manufacturers are transitioning them, new ICE engines are increasingly HEV in order to meet emissions regulation. (iii ) Private vs business data is irrelevant, business buyers (company cars) are using those cars for private use as well. (iv) Most private buyers are buying on finance (PCP) or lease (PCH) which means depreciation is already built into the monthly cost. Depreciation is only relevant for cash buyers planning to sell within the first 3 years. The few private cash buyers are those more likely to hold onto the vehicle, depreciation is spread over a much longer timeline. (v) EV's are depreciated more quickly in part due to the pace of improvement in the technology, no-one wants last years iPhone, and the opportunistic pricing policy of manufacturers in the early stages of this technology. Finally, thanks for taking the time to discuss this topic, one constructive criticism, I think you could have taken a more empathetic approach to this, people need to be reassured (ie. not see EV as a threat) & to see this as an opportunity to improve the current situation, responding to comments in a combative way only results in polarising positions.
Thanks for commenting and contributing to the conversation. I did try to be as empathetic and level headed as I could be, but definitely fell down at a couple of points. Hard not to get wound up by the amount of comments I get like this one.
@@UpsideDownFork I imagine it can be a thankless task at times, but without content like yours, providing realtime, evidence based feedback on the ins & outs of being an EV owner then those who are on the fence will never make the transition. It all starts with one more driver choosing to do something new, thanks for putting yourself out there, taking the flak but helping to give others that confidence.
@@Travel_Day_Dreams Thanks for the positive feedback. I'll keep grinding away. The vast majority of the videos on my channel are all about my own experiences. Other people will have different ones of course.
Point 8. Yes you can charge fast if you A) Buy a 800v compatible car and B) Live near an Ionity charger. 😂 Both yours and their situations are not real world. From one extreme to another.
30% don't have off street parking. Fact. But how many don't have a car? I'd estimate half of that 30% have no car and rely on public transport. So realistically, it's a minority that don't have off-street parking.
If half of the houses don't have a car then I would have plenty of places to park, and not be driving around adjacent streets looking for a space! 😂 While it's true many don't have a car many houses like us have two cars. Next door have two and a works van, the people across the road have four cars (as both adult children have cars). So without actually counting I would guess the average for our street (and all the other ones locally) I would say is probably well over 1.5 cars per household.
@gavjlewis and I'll give good odds you question whether only 30% of houses don't have off street parking. Often to get perspective we need to look further than the end of the street.
@@gavjlewisThis is true from my experience kf living in a terraced house for a decade. Wasn't too unusual to have to park in the next street or even further.
@stuartburns8657 this may be true but a high percentage of houses without parking aren't terraced. And many terraced houses have parking. Your street isn't uncommon, but it isn't representative of the whole either.
Octavia 2.0 TDI manual 2023 on a long journey. I don't use it around town due to dpf concerns on short journeys. I use my wife's 1.33 petrol manual Dacia Duster 2020 for local journeys which does 50mpg. @@UpsideDownFork
Meanwhile Fuelly shows that the actual average achieved by a Skoda Octavia is 45mpg. www.fuelly.com/car/skoda/octavia?engineconfig_id=515&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= Forget what the screen in the car says, it lies to you just like dieselgate...
Why is it people are so emotive about EVs and are either for or against!? It is possible to have a balance? I think EVs are great tech but have some way to go yet, and are ruined by the practical side and extreme misinformation. Claim #1: Cherry picked single example - ignore! Claim #2: Isn't this because the business incentives are still in place? What would happen without them being artificially forced? Seems like your data is agreeing with him, private EVs are relatively down when obviously they should be increasing! Claim #4: You missed the point about charging. Your "charge at home" answer only applies if (1) you never do high miles, (2) you have a driveway (a sizeable 30% don't = 1 in 3 of everyone!). If you need to charge away from home then for most EV owners its undoubtedly great inconvenience (time wasted, chargers broken, money wasted on snacks ;). Agreed with lower maintenance in general BUT if EVs break or there is an accident then they can be much more expensive to fix (that's why insurance is higher and they are more easily written off). Claim #5: Some public chargers are now over 90p! Once you get to around 40p it's costing you more than diesel! Your figures are comparing your car (which sounds like better than average) against ICE cars which are worse than average. Since when has a average diesel only averaged 45mpg?! Unless its a tank then it should be much better, mine is at least 60mpg average and similar in size to your car. Compare like with like or the comparison is nonsense. Claim #6: Homeownership isn't "completely irrelevant", there are many landlords that refuse to have an EV charger fitted. And you can't charge at home any time you're on a long journey - that could be less than 100 miles out on some EVs. Claim #7: You are basically agreeing with while trying not to! Claim #8: Too emotive but you can't argue that time isn't wasted with an EV looking for chargers that aren't broken, then charging - unless you do low mileage, have access and just charge at home. Only very new EVs will charge at that sort of rate and we are back to very high cost charging again, about twice the cost of diesel. Claim #9: Hopefully it's not just flocking/flogging a dead horse and the EV misinformation on both sides will stop!
Oh, and can't forget the huge spanner in the works in regards to costs, another huge artificial subsidy which won't last long. The government will be loosing £billions in fuel tax and VAT to EV owners as it amounts to half the cost of fuel. Do you think they won't be coming for you soon?
Thanks for commenting but you are rebutting some of my points which you claim are cherry picked examples with your own cherry picked anecdotes. EVs are advantageous for the masses already. There are still a long list of cases in which they won't work, but these are not the majority of use cases.
@@darrenadams2640 BIK has long been based on emissions, well before EVs were the main chunk of company cars. This is already being watered down from next year. Charge at home is still relevant to people who do high miles. We now have dozens of options of EVs that do well over 300 miles on a single charge. Say you do 200 miles every single work day of the year(extreme I know), that could be 50k per year and you could still easily only charge from home. There's actually more workplace chargers currently being installed in the UK than home chargers. This opens up far more options for those who have a drive as well as the critical part of the nation that don't. When EVs break they aren't necessarily more expensive than ICE cars. This is a myth. I'm third generation working in the motor trade. A battery cell replacement is less than the typical cost of a clutch/DMF or a DPF change and in some cases the cost can be comparable with a timing belt change on some of the cars with more difficult ICE packaging. I know a few VDAs personally that will attest to EVs having more of the expensive components in less vulnerable locations. A front end smash in an ICE vehicle is always more than it's electric counterpart. There are MANY times more components there to replace. Get some insurance quotes for yourself, you'll find that only Tesla command an insurance premium and that is to do with parts supply chain issues. Legacy OEMs don't suffer this. I've done a whole video dedicated to this anyway. "Some public chargers are now over 90p!" This is not representative of the broader picture. "Since when has a average diesel only averaged 45mpg?!" Here's a few supporting links: www.whatcar.com/best/real-mpg-most-economical-diesel-cars-and-the-least/n19281 www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-mpg www.fuelly.com/car There are many complaints when electric cars run 10-20% short of their claimed range but much less outrage when ICE vehicles in some extreme cases fall 40% below their claimed MPG figures! "there are many landlords that refuse to have an EV charger fitted." Please provide some data on this. Have a look at home many landlords have claimed for the OZEV grant. "And you can't charge at home any time you're on a long journey - that could be less than 100 miles out on some EVs." Nearly every EV now has a real world range of 200+ miles, the newer more expensive ones are 300+ My own £8500 car will do 200 miles on the motorway in good conditions, but it's just a basic cheap one. Things have moved on a lot from 10 years ago when 100 miles was the expected range. You can buy a £10k Hyundai Kona which will do 300 miles in good conditions and 250 miles in poor conditions. "Only very new EVs will charge at that sort of rate" - Ioniq 5 was introduced in 2021, making it 3 years old and perfectly affordable for a lot of people. There are lots of affordable Teslas that will charge at almost that rate and benefit from the incredible charging network Tesla has built. My own budget EV will charge from 10-80% in 35 minutes. 140 miles for a 35 minute stop. Not bad for the basic end of the market. That means I could drive from Southampton to Stoke-on-trent on 1 charge and then charge for 35 minutes which would allow me enough range to get the last bit up to our holiday destination in Penrith. Thanks if you made it this far!
You EV Hating Exaggerate to the extreme, the few short comings of the Battery, the EV motor is way better than ice and the rest of EVs is the same You state general 'Car' or 'Manufacturers', or a specific 'model' problems as 'EV' problems, for instance you state 'self driving' as an EV problem when it is a general car problem, a feature that can be on any type of vehicle On the other hand you have blinded yourself to the many many problems with the ice design, problems that cannot be engineered out, like * Excess Heat * Excess Friction * Excess Vibration * Pollution * inefficient * Weak * Dirty * Frequent Maintenance * Break Downs * More
People without a driveway - fact. People with driveways but rent - also plenty. Swathes of preregistered EVs with delivery mileage on Autotrader at big discounts - fact. 60-80p per kWh at significant number of charging points - fact. Number of EVs on road 5% so 20 times the number of current charging points needed - highly likely. 1.5 miles per KWh at best towing a caravan - fact. No EV out there bar a cyber truck capable of towing 3.5T - fact.
Towing 3.5T is very niche and I would certainly not recommend a cybertruck for this purpose due to it's aluminium monocoque chassis. EVs are not being exclusively discounted. The whole car sales side of the motor trade is currently in free fall. It looks like a recession is on the cards.
@@UpsideDownFork towing a caravan isn’t niche. Average weight 1200kg to 1300kg. I tow 3.5T as do a lot of vehicle movers out there. What would you have us use?
Towing a 1200KG caravan is VERY different to towing a 3.5T trailer as you well know if you are a vehicle mover. There are lots of EVs that can tow the 1200KG of a caravan but the significant impact on range is a real problem. As for niche. 36 million car owners in the UK. Half a million caravan owners in the UK. That's definitely niche by definition. Our Seat Alhambra tows 2T very well. I've moved my mum's caravan for her and my dad has a nice 3.5T Brian James trailer that I've used a few times. I previously owned a Mercedes ML which I used for towing and then a Jeep Grand Cherokee as well. I used to tow around 2.5T very regularly for work. I'm not naive to the requirements of towing. I know that for most people towing, the instant torque and smooth progress of an EV make towing easy but the range isn't there for long distance towing. I'm not here to dispute that. I'm here to state that for most people, EVs are better. For the minority who regularly tow then a diesel is the way for now. Unless you're towing every day then most people would benefit from having 1 EV and 1 diesel. If it's your full time job then it's completely understandable to stick with diesel.
@@UpsideDownForkI really appreciate you listening and taking onboard the concerns I raise without the usual defection I normally get. I have to disagree slightly on half a million caravanners being considered niche. The whole point of my argument is that EVs are not a one size fits all solution and from what you say, you appear to admit that too, which is refreshing from an advocate. I’m not an EV hater. If I could afford one, be able to home charge one, could afford to lose the depreciation, could afford the downtime, and it could do what I needed it to from a work perspective, I would have one tomorrow. Unfortunately none of the above is true in my case. But the most distressing thing is that the UK is being mandated 100% into EVs without thought of all the “use cases” for which they won’t work, such as caravanners, van drivers etc. Anyway, it is really good that we can have a sensible, grown up discussion about it. Regards
@@peterhowson-pf5vo Having spent my whole life in the motor trade and as a petrol head, I am surrounded by friends and family that can be at the polar opposite ends of the spectrum, EV lovers and EV haters. We all still get along and love each other in the real world so i'm not sure why the online world breeds a different atmosphere of contempt so easily. Full transparency, at my home as personal vehicles I have an Electric MG5, Diesel Alhambra, petrol Vespa and petrol Aprilia RS660. When they mandate electric motorbikes I will be a very sad boy. My wife and I both default to taking the MG5, it's the quietest, smoothest, nicest to travel in by a long way. My previous car was a Mercedes S Class so we have become used to a decent level of refinement. I think people in your shoes will be forced into the plug in hybrid segment which for some use cases is a brilliant solution but for most people it's the worst of both worlds! I believe there are US trials where they use geofencing to prevent the petrol engines kicking in within city boundaries so they run on electric power only and then they hit the freeway and the GPS unlocks the petrol engine for distance. I think a bit less of the stick and a bit more of the carrot would have been a sensible approach to help overcome the EV hesitancy.
Maybe we should just stop shoving EVs down the throats of people who don't have home charging. We don't have enough reasonably priced EVs for everyone who does have home charging, or still want one without home charging, because it is suitable for their needs. We can't punish people for not having a life that is compatible with the current technology. When it really is compatible, rest assured, everyone will want one, nobody will need it forced upon them.
@@UpsideDownFork I think a part of the problem is the carrots are often a bit manky, full of maggots or even sometimes made of plastic. It's all well and good to encourage EV adoption, but it needs to be kept real. The only people complaining about their EV, are the people who were mislead into buying one when it wasn't suitable for their needs. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, for someone who's situation is suitable for EV adoption, to complain about adopting an EV, zero. There are only benefits, and you know this only too well. The problems are for the people who's life isn't 100% compatible with adopting an EV. 95% suitable vs 5% not suitable, 90-10 and even 85-15 is worth waving carrots in front of them, but when you start getting too far from 100% suitable, there is some deception going on. Maybe a video explaining who shouldn't be considering getting an EV, because there is a high risk of having regrets, would be a good idea. Even if it is to show clearly that you are trying to be as unbiased as you can. I definitely don't think we should be whacking anyone with a stick. We were all told that diesel engines are "great and we should all buy one", we can't go around punishing people for believing what they were told to believe. We can only encourage them to not cling onto the belief.
On auto trader right now there are 20,000 EVs for sale about a quarter of them have less than 100 miles on the clock that's pre registering by dealers so your smmt figures are not a true vision of the market . Leased EVs will be hitting the market soon in big numbers then we will see. Faults on EVs are mental software and other issues take ages to fix six weeks to repair is the norm. EVs make best sense in city's when you do less than 60 miles a day and you can charge 😮at home most people in city's can not charge at home 30% figure is a biased government guess. My experience tells me it's more like 50% of people cannot change at home. If your want an EV that's great enjoy it but don't tell me I have to buy one I want the choice of EV or ice the government is by mandating change stacking up hatred of EV evangelist
The 30% figure is a UK national average, in cities it's 60%. This is balanced out by rural housing which has a far higher likelihood off dedicated parking. UK housing stock is old, much of it before the advent of cars, or at least of widespread car ownership. I used to live in a street of terraced Victorian houses in west London, thirty or so families with houses 15 foot wide (and thus potential for a 15 foot parking space in front of each house). A Chevy Bolt is 13"6" long, and that's a small car in the USA. It's a problem the UK government seems to have ignored, aggravated by the high cost of charging away from home. I live in Eugene, Oregon where every house (even rental apartments) has at least one dedicated parking space, most houses can accommodate 2 or 3 vehicles on their driveways. Getting chargers to those places is still an issue, but now just an economic one (who pays and how much), rather than a practical one.
@@ziploc2000 Thank you you make my point for me EVs work best in city's where 60% cannot charge at home but most do short in milage journeys to and from work
@@ziploc2000 also you cannot drape cables across walkways so your Victorian house theory is not going to work also councils are less keen to offer a crossover anymore, this is because there is less land to absorb rainfall if you cover your front garden in paving, more climate madness from your local council!
There is one thing that the anti EV brigade always fails to mention, clean air. It's like they want to be sucking in fumes from the car in front!
So very true!
Exactly , dirty diesels .
My X trail D had dpf issues , it has 6 filters , they didn't know which 1 it was
Nice of jesus to pop by and support the oil industry
😂
What a breath of fresh air to watch a RUclips video about EVs that is calm and level headed. The amount of people that have been ‘activated’ by the misinformation is worrying. Rumours of pay per mile have sent the same people into a frenzy!
Thanks for commenting!
I did consciously reign in some of my passion to try and keep it calm and objective.
I’ve spent a total of 0 minutes and 0 seconds “waiting” for my car to charge this month.
I used to spend roughly 30 minutes a month refuelling my gas vehicles.
That whole “I can fill my car in 3 to 5 minutes” argument is getting so tired and stupid. Most cars spend most of their existence parked next to a building with electrical hookup. Do the math. It’s not hard.
That mirrors my personal experience.
Great video and facts to back up your points.
What we also need to consider for people who aren't lucky enough to have off street parking is the importance of pushing employers to put in EV charging for employees.
I have been nagging my employer for many many years 😂 and finally in the last year or two we have had 24 type 2 charge points with more coming....
Yes! Good on you!
@@deansh8506 that's amazing
I have waited a long time to ditch fossil fuels in any form. If we're not manipulated by the oil industry, it's politics (local to global), finance or even weather. Right now, at my home, I can make my own power. I can use it to run my house and run my car. In a few years the extra cost will be paid for. I don't see the down side, except that it will take a while for everyone else to catch up.
Agreed 👍
Greetings from Oxford. I began my BEV journey in September 2019 with a BMW i3. I still have it. I’m nearly 60 YO, and I well remember the angst I felt between ordering the i3 and taking delivery. 5 years later and the experience has been sublime, no servicing, cheap to charge from home on overnight tariff, smooth, quiet, powerful, relaxing to drive. Now at just shy of 50k miles, no signs of any loss of range. One very happy EV owner here.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
Some basic facts. UK EV sales are up. Most cars are sold/leased to businesses EV or ICE. Sales worldwide of EVs are up. Sales of EVs have gone down this year in the EU, but if you were offering a lot of those cars for almost 0 cost last year with government subsidies, then this year the subsidies get removed, the sales will go down.
The problem is the press and even channels like fully charged falling for the nonsense that sales have gone down, UK and worldwide they are well up.
Thanks for commenting.
The naysayers are inciting a self fulfilling prophecy by increasing hesitance towards EVs. Hmmm, I wonder who would gain from the continued use of ICE? 🤔😉
I do not have home charging available, my local charge rates are 25p/kWh for 22kW and 39p at Tesla fast chargers that are local to me. To date my costs (including proportion of £90 Tesla annual membership) works out at 7.6p per mile. First couple of thousand miles has returned 4 miles per kWh.
That's a good result and shows that it can be done if you're fortunate to be in the right part of the UK!
I guess you haven't seen the recent massive market manipulation going on in Autotrader. So many pre registered EVs with delivery miles from 1-2 years ago. Lots of ghost listings with no pictures or dealer staff shots. There is massive variance between sales and registration with later being distorted by double sales on the same day. The BIK and ZEV mandate are destroying the new sales market!
Yes, I'm well aware, but the pre reg situation isn't just an EV specific issue.
The whole car sales market is in free fall and there is either a massive market correction coming or a recession, or most likely both.
I agree the ZEV mandate isn't the solution. More carrot and less stick would be my approach.
Thanks for engaging.
Good rebuttal. Data is king
Thanks for commenting!
Grr, Im so mad that other people are making obviously reasonable choices, and coincidentally bringing more and more affordable second-hand EVs closer to my budget. Grrr, I say
😁👍
While I don't agree with this guys sentiments, he has some valid points and I'm not sure about a couple of yours.
The price of public charging where I am is between 60p and 80p (BP Pulse) so this was not an unfair comment. It might be possible to find cheaper chargers but often these are the prices you will have to pay.
You are comparing the miles per kWh of your MG to the average MPG which distorts the figures. The high percentage of gas guzzling 4x4's badly effects the average mpg so It would be better to use the miles per kWh of the average EV which is more like 3 instead of 4. Or if you compared to a similar size car, for a diesel would it be more like 55 to 60mpg not 45.
7p per kWh is not available to everyone, where I live the cheapest EV tariff is 14.2p per kWh plus 10p per day, plus the daytime electricity is more than for a standard tariff. If you include all these factors in your spreadsheet the cost benefits are much less.
Don't get me wrong, I love my MG5 and have no interest in going back to burning fossils but we have to understand the situation is not the same for everyone.
Yes, agree. I hope I didn't gloss over the fact too much that he does have some legitimate points that are real challenges to overcome. You've outlined them nicely.
I did pick my personal figures from my own vehicles just as a demonstration. I hope it just went to show a point.
I would like the script to be flipped from "EVs are a niche suitable for the few" to "EVs work well for most people"
There will be outliers but the majority will benefit from a switch to electric.
Sorry to hear that your EV tariff is so crazy expensive where you are!
@@UpsideDownFork I suspect the the vast majority of people would be much better off running an EV if they only knew it.
Even where I live.
Some excellent points, well made. Always a good idea to compare like for like or you immediately lose the argument. And yes, you often end up with a higher day rate when you get an cheap over night tariff, meaning everything in the day will cost more.
I don’t hear all these claims, I don’t hear or see the claims about heat pumps. Oh maybe that’s because I haven’t bought a UK ‘news’paper since the 90’s 🤣😂
I don’t think anyone has, it tends to be online sites that make these claims, or people repeating things they’ve read on Twitter (not calling it X) and Meta and believing anything they’re fed.
@@HiruS22Meta? I think you mean Facebook?
@@HiruS22these are often opinion pieces in The Telegraph, Daily Express or Daily Mail?
You're a lucky man!
Awsome video mate well
Done
Great video, a couple of clarifications.
If you know you are going to use 100% Public charging then plan to get a monthly subscription to a local provider. Tesla, Ionity and others have reduced kWh prices from 35-45 pence, sometimes there is an offer from car brands for membership.
If you check out offers on new and pre-reg cars you can get much lower prices. £1000's off 'List'.
Many private 'buyers' get lease deals, these show up as 'fleet sales' so aren't counted in the figures correctly.
Thanks for contributing and highlighting those points!
What on earth is “flocking” a dead horse? 😂
Yes, this guy is barely literate. Probably why cannot research properly 😂
😂
I don't know but it sounds obscene.
Covering it in fancy wallpaper, perhaps?
If he put the actual word he wanted to in the post (clue the middle two letters are G), it would probably be flagged by whichever platform he’s posting on.
Yes, the point you didn't disagree with - the cost of charging away from home - is the main reason I haven't gone for an EV. We can't charge in the flat that I live in and nor can 30% of UK drivers (Source: AA I think). We can only get cheaper than an ICE if we are prepared to wait 2 hours for a charge - a bit like first and second class travel.
This is a real sticking point for some of my friends and family. Many who would like to make the jump but unless they can get work place charging it doesn't look like things are going to improve any time soon!
It's actually worse than that in the UK. 30% of drivers overall don't have access to a dedicated parking space near their home, but it's 60% in cities. In the countryside people have more space and it's down to 16%.
So the very place where EVs would most make sense (short commuting drives, reduce local pollution) is also the place where it's hardest to own one.
I'm hugely enthusiastic about EVs, but the UK in particular has some issues it needs to resolve if it wants everyone driving an EV.
Add to that the eyewatering cost of electricity in the UK (I pay 10c/ kWh in Oregon, about 8p, at home) and you've got a lot of resistance.
Well done 👍
Thanks for stopping by and commenting! You're an inspiration to many of us! Keep up the good fight.
Five figure depreciation only occurs if you pay full retail price When new. With the discounts available right now, and when I bought mine, depreciation is much more modest. Ironically it’s difficult to point out the discounts available while still maintaining that the depreciation is high!
True 👍
Lease loco , EV lease deals close to ICE now.
Just got Tesla model Y , ,299 PCM , £5 to fill up at home ,, 230 miles !!.
No service costs
@@Soulboy63 lots of good deals for new and used at the moment but I expect they will keep getting even better 👍
People reveal their bias/ignorance by skewing the exception to represent the rule. Majority facts/logic trumps exceptions. People hate change, evs are obvious choice & will be increasingly so. Let the ‘steam engine’ brigade stick to their stupidity.
Thanks for commenting!
A lot of flats have off street parking. These tend to be large tarmac areas impossible to have a personal EV point installed. The number of off street parking is the wrong question.
Allocated parking can have charging points.
But difficult to install individually. Not the same as having your own driveway.
@@brianbissenden4509 Mostly modern block's with allocated parking have power available.
Yes, I agree this is a challenge that needs to be tackled, but hardly a difficult one compared to most engineering problems.
I guess with most things it comes down to money.
@@UpsideDownFork It is the biggest challenge. I looked at a couple of new build apartments,no provision for mass EV ownership.
The only valid point they make is if you can't charge at home then you don't save any money on fuel (not to mention it's inconvenient). So there is still some way to go to overcome those hurdles for people without driveways to own EVs. That shouldn't be blindly dismissed and needs to be addressed. Lamp post chargers, roadside chargers and even L2 supermarket chargers at cheaper rates are all options. At the moment it's hard to advise anyone without home charging to buy an EV.
Fair point ☝️
I gave up watching this nonsense. He is avoiding the evidence that he himself has presented.
Thanks for taking the time to comment though!
Not sure where the 30% don’t have access to off street parking comes from? The important point is if the parking is dedicated to the property and is it possible to install a charging point at reasonable cost.
Yes, agreed 👍
AND it allows access to time of day cheap rates.
Relatively close street charging ticks the convenience box, but the cost box needs addressing also, otherwise you've got a two tier pricing demographic, homeowners on 8p kwh vs the rest on 45p kwh.
Or ease off on the narrative that EV's are cheaper to run and just focus on the carbon / eco benefits?
My 55mpg Nissan (sorry Fork you've read some of this in a previous) cost £70-75 to fill up.
This gets us 550 miles. Let's call it 500.
Then a long range MGZS 72.6kwh gets you on paper 273 miles? (Lets say you get 250)
Public charging @ 45.p kwh is about £34.50.
So 2 charge cycles get you 500 EV miles (same as my Nissan) for £69.
So a £6 best case saving 🤔
Factor in potential higher VED, insurance view EV's as more costly to repair and they're typically in a higher insurance group, and bingo you are potentially worse off?
The privileged with home ToD charging are getting the same 500 EV miles for around £12.
Insurance is subjective, snd I've only got my own price comparisons, but in a quiet town, culdesac with garage / driveway, my Nissan SUV vs 2nd gen MGZS was £218 less expensive than the 34k mileage EV I looked at.
I'd also go from my £20 Roadtax (I can't get a family Chinese meal for that) to £190 starting in 2025?!
Convenience and cost, otherwise all the 'cheap to buy EV's' wouldn't effect the status quo as much as some bang on about
@@stuartburns8657 have you watched my video about EV insurance prices?
I also hear whispers about the low rate of VED for ICE vehicles being scrapped at the upcoming budget.
We shall see if they want to continue to use the stick rather than the carrot.
@@UpsideDownFork Yes I did and that is a somewhat (not the video) confused topic depending on who you talk to and know.
My example is going back 18 months now, and of the 3 who I know with BEV's, one hardly changed (or inline with increases we've all seen regardless of drivetrain) one went up buy ~£150 (hardly life altering) but the most startling was a young lad (26) going from a performance ICE to a std M3. £900 pa increase!
I consider myself financially prudent, and also research these costs as it's easy to do these days with a prospective car on autotrader, just feed the reg into your Go Compare profile and bingo..
@@UpsideDownFork I've also heard those rumours about low VED for ICE cars 🥺
Whilst I'd be vexed, I equally understand how insane it would be given an EV would potentially be paying 6.5 times more than my diesel!
Another negative affecting those undecided is the expense car supplements now applying to EV's from 2025.
This is a huge cost if the original vehicle price was 40k or more (former government subsidiary doesn't help) so an extra £410 for the inital 5 years?
What a way to kick the fledgling EV market where it hurts eh?
The expensive thing only starts for those registered from next year though I think
This month including the next two days will cost me 130 notes for over 400 miles a week. (1700 miles total estimated by end of Monday)
The same commute with the missus Q3 derv is £220 a month, My Audi tt 3.2 ltr was 450 notes a month. I have my solar panels and this month has been rubbish for solar power but still cheaper than what I have had to pay out. I fitted a fast charger and charged up in 6 hours if that and away to turn the garden into a driveway as I see the benefit.
Thanks for sharing!
Those are all on the wrong side of stupid from an mpg perspective though 🤔
@@stuartburns8657 the Q3 is in the high 50s mpg. My old diesels I have owned before the petrol TT was in the high 50s also. The petrol TT was about 25 mpg.
That along with the cheap price of 10k for my Nissan leaf from a Nissan dealer makes me feel it’s better for my use case. 👍
@@bamber119 Great if it's working for you with the Leaf. Q3 much better than I thought as well
Great evidence based disucssion buddy. Love your work.
Thanks for listening
Fleet sales of BEV's due to far superior BIK have been a significant driving force for EV sales in the UK, certainly since subsidies were withdrawn, but even before that.
This would consequently affect ICE sales considerably. UK Fleet comprises of 62+% of the market!
I've seen many a YT'r exhort the virtues of EV's, and whilst I have zero doubt that in the correct circumstances, they can be financially beneficial and pratical, the reality is the vast majority of the YT's I see with EV are in large detached properties, invariably with PV, batteries and heatpumps.
This is both an affluent demographic and I'd suggest an above averagely conscientious one.
Pretty much every car manufacturer on the planet has stepped back from initial pledges and projections, and that's being led by sales figures, be it ICE or BEV uncertainty and indecision on the part of consumers.
(I do think world wide we are teetering on the verge of a global recession mind)
I'm far from Anti-EV, but I feel too much emphasis is placed on areas like inital cost, whilst ignoring practicality and ongoing running cost concerns.
YES I can hear the EVangalists screaming I run my car for pennies a week, but for a lot of current ICE owners (of a lower financial statue) home charging isn't an option.
Nor is it enviable having to find that extra 30-50 minutes a week seeking relatively expensive public charging.
Then from 2025 the new VED, insurance (which may go up considerably) and the concerns about not being able to continue taking your EV to your local non franchise Stealership for basic repairs.
THIS is a VAST market demographic, those other ICE vehicle owners who buy something between 5-15k.
Some run down Leaf as an "affordable" alternative isn't going to cut it.
I've enjoyed your journey with Solar, and your hearpump, but please don't turn into one of the insufferable EV preachers 🙏
No problem with you or anybody dispelling FUD, but equally I see few advocates acknowledging that EV's are still currently 'niche'
For clarification EV's are (imho) at their best when:
1. Prospective owners reasonably well off - not always a necessity subject to the rest of the below.
However, you every 3-4 years were in a position to replace your ICE
2. Can home charge on cheap ToD tariffs
3. Their new EV may be a company car so benefitting from the highest BIK.
4. Your former ICE was a 25-35 mpg dead tree juice guzzling abomination.
5. You did around 12k+ annual miles, and will continue to do so in the EV.
6. With the EV you now benefit from ULEZ and Congestion fees being wavered (although that perk is coming to an end)
I myself an fortunate enough to live in a 4 bed detached house, and with the Wife 100% wfh, kids both at college, and me commuting a whole 7 miles round trip to work, I feel we have little (other that ecological) incentive to replace our 2 x paid off diesels.
These are 50 + 55mpg. £20 & £30 pa VED. Low insurance. The main family car is Euro6 of ulez free.
Fully disclosure, both are at mid 70k mileage, and we recently paid for both to have their respective timing belts / kits replaced.
5 years left on mortgage (I'm 50) and I'd rather sweat out the vehicles we own than be paying much more each year for equivalently sized and spec'd EV's.
I'm 100% certain I'll own one eventually, but when it suits us financially.
Sorry for the war and peace 😂
Thanks for taking the time to comment.
I agree almost entirely with your points raised.
I believe the FUD is creating an EV hesitancy self fulfilling prophecy.
We know which parties have the most to win or lose by EV adoption or rejection.
The script needs to change from "EVs are a niche suitable for the few" to "EVs are suitable for most people".
Talking through my personal EV experience offline with friends and family has already converted them. Taking them for a ride down the road to demonstrate how quiet and comfortable it is. Showing them how cheap you can buy one and detailing how we charge as well as the real world range has helped at least a dozen people overcome their pre conceived fears.
There are still a long list of scenarios where EVs don't make sense but this list is quickly shrinking as some of the challenges with EV adoption are finally being resolved.
I'm not here to convert anyone or to shame anyone for driving petrol or diesel, I hope this video didn't come across that way.
Thanks as always for contributing to the discussion!
Apologies, but going for the hard sell(!):
I might have thought that £1k annual saving charging at home Vs diesel on 10k travel might tempt you (or others) to dip your toes in a cheap secondhand EV (I think @upsidedownfork spent £8.4k on his)?
@@UpsideDownFork Always a pleasure sharing and hopefully contributing to meaningful dialogue and discussion.
No you didn't come across as patronising at all, but perhaps guilt of your own circumstance rose tinted glasses view point (if that isn't patronising in turn?) but then as am I to a degree..
Yes the EV situation is getting better, and I did get moderately close to getting a gen 2 MGZS EV (2nd hand)
Obviously in turn my circumstances are somewhat niche in terms of our insanely low mileage requirement.
However, our rather modest 2016 Nissan Qashqai (but fully spec'd) still outclassed the MGZS EV in various key metrics.
This will and is getting better, but it does feel like a market stall, and not entirely due to the egregious FUD doing the rounds.
In part I suspect because the 1st wave early adopters segment reached saturation point 2 years ago, but the 2nd stage of the adoption curve is misfiring.
It's the key less privileged, no ability to home or street charge mass market that will sway the fight imho.
Those are the numbers and volumes the manufacturers need to get into mass production as they intended.
If and when street / lamppost charging is common place, I feel that would be a catalyst, assuming they could tap into cheap night rates..
I would hazard a guess that the friends and family you've influenced into moving to EV's are in a similarly fortunate (but well earned!) position.
Again to labour the point, how many who typically only buy or lease a vehicle for 4-5 years (or longer) in the 5-15k (2nd hand) without home charging capability did you get to swap their ICE?
I bet you could nearly count them on the fingers of Captain Hooks bad hand! 😉
Take care and enjoy your vehicle.
🙏
That guy trolls quite a few EV forums; he’s best ignored.
Wise advice.
Renters can not easily have an EV charger, lease holders cannot easily have one either. What about about people living in flats? They may be classed as having off-street parking, as the block has a car park. Renters will need permission from the landlord, leaseholders may need permission from the freeholder. If you rent would you really want to spend money installing an EV charger everytime you had to move? I think your percentage of people with suitable off street parking for an EV charger is significantly lower than you suggest. PS I own my house, and have off street parking, but still drive my dirty diesel, and have no intention of replacing it, until it needs replacing, I do less than 8000 miles a year.
Admittedly it is variable and more nuanced to lump everyone into over simplistic groups but the video was already long enough as it is!
Renters can still benefit from the OZEV grant whereas homeowners can't do.
So many different situations but the narrative that EVs are only suitable for the few is false. EVs are a better experience for the majority of us.
Over in northern Ireland there is still not enough ev chargers to travel around.
We charger at home at 16p kWh.
Then the next ev charger that is close to our home is a BP plus,but it's 83p kWh.
So we need more ev chargers and have them available to use at all times and don't have them locked away in a carpark.
That's not open until after 1pm on a Sunday.
My wife was not very happy at 8am in the morning,and looking to charge up.
Agreed. There are still challenges to overcome and the experience is highly variable depending on where you are in the country.
If you want to " flock your stock " ... go and do it where we don't have to see.
@@patrickchubey3127 not sure who you're talking to. 🤔
To those who might feel the urge to go and flock their stock.
There is no wonder that people have such negative views of EV's when you see such negativity in the press. Enjoyed the video. Only point to make for balance is that the lower priced ev chargers away from home are effectively 'destination' chargers, for my MG5 that's @ 7kWh per hour, dictated by the on board AC charger. So those who don't have home chargers or facilities at their place of work are stuck with higher 'Rapid' chargers. On that point, 'Rapid' is subjective. On our recent journey to Bath from Leeds, experienced anything from 39kWh delivery upto 80kWh...can be a lottery regardless of what their stated output is. (I know that charge rates change based on battery SOC, quoted variables based upon sub 20% soc) without access to home charging it must be frustrating. Great to see MG5 high up in What Cars reliability results. 15 months in to EV ownership and can say without doubt it's cheaper and actually more enjoyable to drive. Keep em coming 😊
Yep, indeed!
The anti EV stuff is causing hesitance and becoming a self fulfilling prophecy sadly.
Thanks for clearing up the charging situation.
The injustice and unfairness of those who cant charge at domestic rates can be easily solved with subsidies to the flat dwellers. Problem solved.
Thanks for commenting.
£20k Petrol Corsa down to £15k. How much of a discount as a percentage? Your answer 31%. A seven year olds answer 25%. 😂
Ouch. How did I manage that!? 🤔
If I can read the screenshots correctly, £4685/£19635 = 23.9% (petrol) and £5118/£26895 = 19.0% (BEV), so the overall point stands, just with different figures.
@@UpsideDownFork You did the percentage based off the current price rather than the original price. You did do it on both cars though, so its not toooooo bad!
@@geordish thanks for commenting!
I don't need to take advice from anybody, I have a mind of my own and they can shove EVs.
🤣
So why are you bothering to waste time looking at this
When I meet someone with an EV I have been having the conversation of how they are finding it and the overall summary I have had, they are great for shorter journeys to medium journeys. Anything over a 100 miles each way they still prefer diesel and petrol.
So if you do massive mileage regularly then an EV probably not the right choice for you or pick carefully, if your like the rest of us then you will be fine.
My evs range is 250 miles in the winter, 100 miles there and back is precisely what I do with a roof box camping to the lakes, or to my mum's.
Even driving 300 miles to my brother's involves one stop for dinner and charging, it's no bother.
I far prefer the driving experience for any journey, charging during a necessary toilet and food stop is literally more convenient than ICE. Since it happens at the same time. Don't need to make a prep trip before hand and don't need to essentially park twice at services. Just don't pick stops with only 2 chargers at the very end of your range at 5pn like a tit.
It just what I've heard from people I did mentioned about, stopping for a pee etc and rapid charge but one wasn't really about the hassle their words not mine and the other has been put of with the rapid charging experience they have had in Wales. Their car is a Volvo ex40 and they stated plus I checked Bjorns and the around 200 mile range they get is correct.
250 mile range is good going winter what car do you have?? As I am looking at electric cars for myself
Personally I'm very happy doing long journeys, by the time it needs charging I'm ready for a decent stop anyway to stretch my legs and unstretch my bladder! I think a big issue is the ability of the car to accurately predict range though. I've got a Tesla and its range prediction has always been spot on regardless of weather, AC use etc, but I have colleagues with the iPace and a taxi driver with an MG3 who really can't rely on what the car is telling them. The taxi was hilarious - going from Heathrow to Cambridge - the driver said that we had enough range for the trip according to the car but we would only get that if he didn't turn on the AC, which on a wet day meant the car was steamed up for most of the trip! I think old school manufacturers who think heatpumps in EVs are optional are part of the problem!
Avoiding the media does help, but Reuters (for some reason) are also big anti-EV reporters. All bogus of course, but the same whinging.
Private buyers that lease are classed as business/commercial as they are owned by a company. This will have a large change on the drop in private buyers.
I bought my Tesla Model 3 direct as a personal purchase. Tesla public chargers can be found at 40 pence per kWh, possibly lower. I have only used these twice in the past 6 months, but still far cheaper to run than petrol. And I have been charged in 15 minutes to continue my trip.
The depreciation is roughly the same on all the cars never mind the fuel source. As EV's continue to rise at the same level then the prices of Petrol will fall faster as Diesels have started to do.
With the MPG figures, they can vary massively between cars and Diesels I previously owned were nearer 40 MPG.
The other thing with the 30% of homes without a driveway is that many of these will be within the towns and cities and friends of mine in these locations do not even own a car. They will rent a car when needed.
Other thing to remember is that 200-300 mile capable EV's are generally only from the past 4 years, so as they become older, they will become affordable to more people. Also batteries will most of the time have a life well beyond that of the car and any that are damaged can often be repaired with a replacement cell.
@@Jaw0lf thanks for sharing 👍
Only reason we purchased a Toyota Aygo instead of a VW UP! Electric. Cant charge at home Southampton based as well local fast charger is a Instavolt at 85p/kwh 😬
Aygo does 53+ mpg so about as cheap as you can get in the petrol world.
My wife loved her little C1 (sister car) when she had it. Great little city cars!
I'm not familiar with instavolt but I just had a look and they do have quite a few stations in and around Southamton and yes, eye watering prices!
If I had to public charge over this way, I would probably use the chargers in the lidl car park whilst I shop.
@@UpsideDownFork yes there is a ALDI near but I work evenings/lates so only shop once every month for about 20 mins as I never eat a evening meal. I'm hoping one day the council will sort the atrocious parking out down our road to be more accommodating to the amount of cars and chuck in some chargers but that's probably a pipe dream 😅
@@Burtis89 I also don't take long shopping but a charge at Lidl could give me the excuse to buy all of the bakery goodies and sit and eat them in peace and quiet without kids trying to nick the goods! 😂
@@UpsideDownFork 🤣 brilliant I like your thinking. Glad it works for you 👍
To be fair I use my E-Bike for about 70% of my commuting/running about anyway so much greener than a EV 😅
But for the wifes commuting and thoes longer trips it would be nice to have a EV one day
@@Burtis89 good to meet a like minded person!
Cycling is also my primary means of transport to get the kids to school and then take me from Rownhams down to Dock gate 20 for work. Occasionally cycling into the city or out to Romsey for a bit of shopping too.
Unfortunately my wife had an accident which brought about getting an EV for her commute quicker than we expected.
More details coming in a dedicated video about that. 👍
On point 5. You say it would take you a couple of hours to charge, but your car only has a 7kw AC charger. So it would take about 7.5 hours.
Public AC charging is very sporadic depending on where you are. While there isn't any near me close enough to walk most of the cheaper ones (council supported) are in paid car parks which makes them expensive if all you are doing is charging the car.
The cheapest free parking ones are at a Green King pub and are 65p. The closest Tesla are open to all are an hour round trip up the motorway. So it's just easiest to use the bank of 5 BP rapids on the main road.
But if you live in London for example they have quite a large selection of on street charging, but this isn't yet country wide.
But I do think the government should (from some future date) mandate all new cars come as standard with 22kw AC charging.
Definitely agree on 22kw ability on cars, I have a 22kw three phase charger at home and only one of my EVs charges at 22kw AC, the other one only at 11kw.
@@peterjones6640 Yes making all cars 22kw will allow the insulation of many more cheaper charging options.
These could be aimed at supermarket carparks close to where many don't have off-street parking. The average driver would only need about two 30 min sessions a week.
Thanks for commenting and the correction. This video was made some time ago and I was naive to the fact that my car only had 7kW AC charging back then. Learning every day.
Your charging rates go to show that the EV experience is still highly variable depending on where you live in the UK.
There is no reason to use a EV over a used ICE.
The total costs are higher.
Up to acteasonable yearly mileage, the total CO2 production is higher.
The amount of deadly accidents is higher, especially with people walking.
Less than 3% of people worldwide have this EV hobby... and if they want to, it is fine. But it is time to stop telling all the others they are better, because they are not!
@@moskitoh2651 wrong.
If you do low enough miles that an ICE car has lower total cost of ownership then you should just walk or get the bus.
CO2 production is accounted for within the first 10-15,000 miles of an EV. After that you make big savings.
There is zero evidence to suggest more fatalities in EVs.
Here's a case study for you.
My 3 year old EV with 30,000 miles cost £8500 which is about the same as the equivalent ICE vehicle.
It is faster and smoother so my wife and I both prefer driving it to our other cars.
We can charge at home so it costs about a tenth of what our diesel does to fuel it for the same amount of travel.
The only downside is that in good conditions it will do a 200mile motorway trip but in winter that could only be 150 mile before needing to charge.
Fortunately for us we only do those trips a handful of times per year so 99% of the time, having an EV is way more convenient as we never need a fuel station.
Good luck 👍
@@UpsideDownFork The carbon footprint of a new car is about 20 tons (iypically more for EV)! A ICE emits about 180g CO2/km. With german energy mix, an EV emits about 90g CO2/km. So above 200.000 km is the äquivalent to the difference.
The first important thing to notice: Don't drive new cars!
You seamed to have not read the "used"?
@@UpsideDownFork LA deaths increase in an all-EV future - study by David Ferris is only one of many studies about EV deaths rising.
@@moskitoh2651Are you trying to compare a used ICE against a new EV?
What's the point in that?
Compare like for like i.e. new vs new or used vs used.
Either way, EV wins your carbon argument by a long way.
Without new cars there will be no used ones.
@@UpsideDownFork Well my current car is rising in value more than all other costs together (insurance, taxes, repairs, fuel). The worst ICE I ever had, was at 5000 EUR a year and that was a mess. It was to new, it was to "luxury" (far over 100.000 EUR new), it was to rare.
If I calculate costs of the typical new EV, I never get as low as 8000 EUR, however I trick it. Tesla Model S e.g. has 11.000 EUR value loss per year in the first 5 years. That is a dramatic increase!
How do you flock a horse? Alive or dead.
@@roxter299roxter7 😂
Flocking is a decorative process that involves applying short fibers to a surface that has been coated with an adhesive. The process can be done using a variety of methods, including electrostatic application, spraying, or brushing on crushed velvet.
Just in relation to the points raised (i) people objecting to EV's cite initial cost, then state that they would never buy a new vehicle, so it isn't EV's they are objecting to but the cost of new cars generally. (ii) regarding new car sales trends (SMMT), petrol & diesel sales are down partly because manufacturers are transitioning them, new ICE engines are increasingly HEV in order to meet emissions regulation. (iii ) Private vs business data is irrelevant, business buyers (company cars) are using those cars for private use as well. (iv) Most private buyers are buying on finance (PCP) or lease (PCH) which means depreciation is already built into the monthly cost. Depreciation is only relevant for cash buyers planning to sell within the first 3 years. The few private cash buyers are those more likely to hold onto the vehicle, depreciation is spread over a much longer timeline. (v) EV's are depreciated more quickly in part due to the pace of improvement in the technology, no-one wants last years iPhone, and the opportunistic pricing policy of manufacturers in the early stages of this technology. Finally, thanks for taking the time to discuss this topic, one constructive criticism, I think you could have taken a more empathetic approach to this, people need to be reassured (ie. not see EV as a threat) & to see this as an opportunity to improve the current situation, responding to comments in a combative way only results in polarising positions.
Thanks for commenting and contributing to the conversation.
I did try to be as empathetic and level headed as I could be, but definitely fell down at a couple of points.
Hard not to get wound up by the amount of comments I get like this one.
@@UpsideDownFork I imagine it can be a thankless task at times, but without content like yours, providing realtime, evidence based feedback on the ins & outs of being an EV owner then those who are on the fence will never make the transition. It all starts with one more driver choosing to do something new, thanks for putting yourself out there, taking the flak but helping to give others that confidence.
@@Travel_Day_Dreams Thanks for the positive feedback. I'll keep grinding away. The vast majority of the videos on my channel are all about my own experiences. Other people will have different ones of course.
Do you think Ed Milliband will prove to be the EV-drivers friend?
Time will tell.
Point 8. Yes you can charge fast if you A) Buy a 800v compatible car and B) Live near an Ionity charger. 😂
Both yours and their situations are not real world. From one extreme to another.
You're welcome 😁 That was a brief attempt to fight fire with fire. 😉
30% don't have off street parking. Fact.
But how many don't have a car? I'd estimate half of that 30% have no car and rely on public transport.
So realistically, it's a minority that don't have off-street parking.
If half of the houses don't have a car then I would have plenty of places to park, and not be driving around adjacent streets looking for a space! 😂
While it's true many don't have a car many houses like us have two cars. Next door have two and a works van, the people across the road have four cars (as both adult children have cars). So without actually counting I would guess the average for our street (and all the other ones locally) I would say is probably well over 1.5 cars per household.
Some good points to consider.
@gavjlewis and I'll give good odds you question whether only 30% of houses don't have off street parking.
Often to get perspective we need to look further than the end of the street.
@@gavjlewisThis is true from my experience kf living in a terraced house for a decade.
Wasn't too unusual to have to park in the next street or even further.
@stuartburns8657 this may be true but a high percentage of houses without parking aren't terraced. And many terraced houses have parking. Your street isn't uncommon, but it isn't representative of the whole either.
My diesel Skoda Octavia does 70mpg so much cheaper than your average calculations ,!
That is exceptional.
Is it the 1.6tdi? Manual I presume?
Octavia 2.0 TDI manual 2023 on a long journey. I don't use it around town due to dpf concerns on short journeys.
I use my wife's 1.33 petrol manual Dacia Duster 2020 for local journeys which does 50mpg. @@UpsideDownFork
Meanwhile Fuelly shows that the actual average achieved by a Skoda Octavia is 45mpg.
www.fuelly.com/car/skoda/octavia?engineconfig_id=515&bodytype_id=&submodel_id=
Forget what the screen in the car says, it lies to you just like dieselgate...
Why is it people are so emotive about EVs and are either for or against!? It is possible to have a balance? I think EVs are great tech but have some way to go yet, and are ruined by the practical side and extreme misinformation.
Claim #1: Cherry picked single example - ignore!
Claim #2: Isn't this because the business incentives are still in place? What would happen without them being artificially forced? Seems like your data is agreeing with him, private EVs are relatively down when obviously they should be increasing!
Claim #4: You missed the point about charging. Your "charge at home" answer only applies if (1) you never do high miles, (2) you have a driveway (a sizeable 30% don't = 1 in 3 of everyone!). If you need to charge away from home then for most EV owners its undoubtedly great inconvenience (time wasted, chargers broken, money wasted on snacks ;). Agreed with lower maintenance in general BUT if EVs break or there is an accident then they can be much more expensive to fix (that's why insurance is higher and they are more easily written off).
Claim #5: Some public chargers are now over 90p! Once you get to around 40p it's costing you more than diesel! Your figures are comparing your car (which sounds like better than average) against ICE cars which are worse than average. Since when has a average diesel only averaged 45mpg?! Unless its a tank then it should be much better, mine is at least 60mpg average and similar in size to your car. Compare like with like or the comparison is nonsense.
Claim #6: Homeownership isn't "completely irrelevant", there are many landlords that refuse to have an EV charger fitted. And you can't charge at home any time you're on a long journey - that could be less than 100 miles out on some EVs.
Claim #7: You are basically agreeing with while trying not to!
Claim #8: Too emotive but you can't argue that time isn't wasted with an EV looking for chargers that aren't broken, then charging - unless you do low mileage, have access and just charge at home. Only very new EVs will charge at that sort of rate and we are back to very high cost charging again, about twice the cost of diesel.
Claim #9: Hopefully it's not just flocking/flogging a dead horse and the EV misinformation on both sides will stop!
Oh, and can't forget the huge spanner in the works in regards to costs, another huge artificial subsidy which won't last long. The government will be loosing £billions in fuel tax and VAT to EV owners as it amounts to half the cost of fuel. Do you think they won't be coming for you soon?
Thanks for commenting but you are rebutting some of my points which you claim are cherry picked examples with your own cherry picked anecdotes.
EVs are advantageous for the masses already. There are still a long list of cases in which they won't work, but these are not the majority of use cases.
@@UpsideDownFork Which cherry picked anecdotes are you referring to?
@@darrenadams2640
BIK has long been based on emissions, well before EVs were the main chunk of company cars.
This is already being watered down from next year.
Charge at home is still relevant to people who do high miles. We now have dozens of options of EVs that do well over 300 miles on a single charge.
Say you do 200 miles every single work day of the year(extreme I know), that could be 50k per year and you could still easily only charge from home.
There's actually more workplace chargers currently being installed in the UK than home chargers. This opens up far more options for those who have a drive as well as the critical part of the nation that don't.
When EVs break they aren't necessarily more expensive than ICE cars. This is a myth. I'm third generation working in the motor trade. A battery cell replacement is less than the typical cost of a clutch/DMF or a DPF change and in some cases the cost can be comparable with a timing belt change on some of the cars with more difficult ICE packaging.
I know a few VDAs personally that will attest to EVs having more of the expensive components in less vulnerable locations. A front end smash in an ICE vehicle is always more than it's electric counterpart. There are MANY times more components there to replace.
Get some insurance quotes for yourself, you'll find that only Tesla command an insurance premium and that is to do with parts supply chain issues. Legacy OEMs don't suffer this. I've done a whole video dedicated to this anyway.
"Some public chargers are now over 90p!" This is not representative of the broader picture.
"Since when has a average diesel only averaged 45mpg?!"
Here's a few supporting links:
www.whatcar.com/best/real-mpg-most-economical-diesel-cars-and-the-least/n19281
www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-mpg
www.fuelly.com/car
There are many complaints when electric cars run 10-20% short of their claimed range but much less outrage when ICE vehicles in some extreme cases fall 40% below their claimed MPG figures!
"there are many landlords that refuse to have an EV charger fitted." Please provide some data on this. Have a look at home many landlords have claimed for the OZEV grant.
"And you can't charge at home any time you're on a long journey - that could be less than 100 miles out on some EVs."
Nearly every EV now has a real world range of 200+ miles, the newer more expensive ones are 300+
My own £8500 car will do 200 miles on the motorway in good conditions, but it's just a basic cheap one. Things have moved on a lot from 10 years ago when 100 miles was the expected range. You can buy a £10k Hyundai Kona which will do 300 miles in good conditions and 250 miles in poor conditions.
"Only very new EVs will charge at that sort of rate" - Ioniq 5 was introduced in 2021, making it 3 years old and perfectly affordable for a lot of people.
There are lots of affordable Teslas that will charge at almost that rate and benefit from the incredible charging network Tesla has built.
My own budget EV will charge from 10-80% in 35 minutes. 140 miles for a 35 minute stop. Not bad for the basic end of the market.
That means I could drive from Southampton to Stoke-on-trent on 1 charge and then charge for 35 minutes which would allow me enough range to get the last bit up to our holiday destination in Penrith.
Thanks if you made it this far!
You EV Hating Exaggerate to the extreme, the few short comings of the Battery, the EV motor is way better than ice and the rest of EVs is the same
You state general 'Car' or 'Manufacturers', or a specific 'model' problems as 'EV' problems, for instance you state 'self driving' as an EV problem when it is a general car problem, a feature that can be on any type of vehicle
On the other hand you have blinded yourself to the many many problems with the ice design, problems that cannot be engineered out, like
* Excess Heat
* Excess Friction
* Excess Vibration
* Pollution
* inefficient
* Weak
* Dirty
* Frequent Maintenance
* Break Downs
* More
Very very true. There aren't many reliable ICE vehicles these days.
People without a driveway - fact. People with driveways but rent - also plenty. Swathes of preregistered EVs with delivery mileage on Autotrader at big discounts - fact. 60-80p per kWh at significant number of charging points - fact. Number of EVs on road 5% so 20 times the number of current charging points needed - highly likely. 1.5 miles per KWh at best towing a caravan - fact. No EV out there bar a cyber truck capable of towing 3.5T - fact.
Towing 3.5T is very niche and I would certainly not recommend a cybertruck for this purpose due to it's aluminium monocoque chassis.
EVs are not being exclusively discounted. The whole car sales side of the motor trade is currently in free fall. It looks like a recession is on the cards.
@@UpsideDownFork towing a caravan isn’t niche. Average weight 1200kg to 1300kg. I tow 3.5T as do a lot of vehicle movers out there. What would you have us use?
Towing a 1200KG caravan is VERY different to towing a 3.5T trailer as you well know if you are a vehicle mover.
There are lots of EVs that can tow the 1200KG of a caravan but the significant impact on range is a real problem.
As for niche. 36 million car owners in the UK.
Half a million caravan owners in the UK. That's definitely niche by definition.
Our Seat Alhambra tows 2T very well. I've moved my mum's caravan for her and my dad has a nice 3.5T Brian James trailer that I've used a few times.
I previously owned a Mercedes ML which I used for towing and then a Jeep Grand Cherokee as well. I used to tow around 2.5T very regularly for work. I'm not naive to the requirements of towing.
I know that for most people towing, the instant torque and smooth progress of an EV make towing easy but the range isn't there for long distance towing. I'm not here to dispute that.
I'm here to state that for most people, EVs are better. For the minority who regularly tow then a diesel is the way for now.
Unless you're towing every day then most people would benefit from having 1 EV and 1 diesel.
If it's your full time job then it's completely understandable to stick with diesel.
@@UpsideDownForkI really appreciate you listening and taking onboard the concerns I raise without the usual defection I normally get. I have to disagree slightly on half a million caravanners being considered niche. The whole point of my argument is that EVs are not a one size fits all solution and from what you say, you appear to admit that too, which is refreshing from an advocate. I’m not an EV hater. If I could afford one, be able to home charge one, could afford to lose the depreciation, could afford the downtime, and it could do what I needed it to from a work perspective, I would have one tomorrow. Unfortunately none of the above is true in my case. But the most distressing thing is that the UK is being mandated 100% into EVs without thought of all the “use cases” for which they won’t work, such as caravanners, van drivers etc. Anyway, it is really good that we can have a sensible, grown up discussion about it. Regards
@@peterhowson-pf5vo Having spent my whole life in the motor trade and as a petrol head, I am surrounded by friends and family that can be at the polar opposite ends of the spectrum, EV lovers and EV haters. We all still get along and love each other in the real world so i'm not sure why the online world breeds a different atmosphere of contempt so easily.
Full transparency, at my home as personal vehicles I have an Electric MG5, Diesel Alhambra, petrol Vespa and petrol Aprilia RS660.
When they mandate electric motorbikes I will be a very sad boy.
My wife and I both default to taking the MG5, it's the quietest, smoothest, nicest to travel in by a long way. My previous car was a Mercedes S Class so we have become used to a decent level of refinement.
I think people in your shoes will be forced into the plug in hybrid segment which for some use cases is a brilliant solution but for most people it's the worst of both worlds!
I believe there are US trials where they use geofencing to prevent the petrol engines kicking in within city boundaries so they run on electric power only and then they hit the freeway and the GPS unlocks the petrol engine for distance.
I think a bit less of the stick and a bit more of the carrot would have been a sensible approach to help overcome the EV hesitancy.
Maybe we should just stop shoving EVs down the throats of people who don't have home charging.
We don't have enough reasonably priced EVs for everyone who does have home charging, or still want one without home charging, because it is suitable for their needs.
We can't punish people for not having a life that is compatible with the current technology. When it really is compatible, rest assured, everyone will want one, nobody will need it forced upon them.
@@robinhood4640 more carrot and less stick?
@@UpsideDownFork I think a part of the problem is the carrots are often a bit manky, full of maggots or even sometimes made of plastic.
It's all well and good to encourage EV adoption, but it needs to be kept real.
The only people complaining about their EV, are the people who were mislead into buying one when it wasn't suitable for their needs.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, for someone who's situation is suitable for EV adoption, to complain about adopting an EV, zero. There are only benefits, and you know this only too well.
The problems are for the people who's life isn't 100% compatible with adopting an EV. 95% suitable vs 5% not suitable, 90-10 and even 85-15 is worth waving carrots in front of them, but when you start getting too far from 100% suitable, there is some deception going on.
Maybe a video explaining who shouldn't be considering getting an EV, because there is a high risk of having regrets, would be a good idea. Even if it is to show clearly that you are trying to be as unbiased as you can.
I definitely don't think we should be whacking anyone with a stick. We were all told that diesel engines are "great and we should all buy one", we can't go around punishing people for believing what they were told to believe. We can only encourage them to not cling onto the belief.
On auto trader right now there are 20,000 EVs for sale about a quarter of them have less than 100 miles on the clock that's pre registering by dealers so your smmt figures are not a true vision of the market . Leased EVs will be hitting the market soon in big numbers then we will see. Faults on EVs are mental software and other issues take ages to fix six weeks to repair is the norm. EVs make best sense in city's when you do less than 60 miles a day and you can charge 😮at home most people in city's can not charge at home 30% figure is a biased government guess. My experience tells me it's more like 50% of people cannot change at home. If your want an EV that's great enjoy it but don't tell me I have to buy one I want the choice of EV or ice the government is by mandating change stacking up hatred of EV evangelist
@@keithbartlett9947 I can see you've already made your mind up.
The 30% figure is a UK national average, in cities it's 60%. This is balanced out by rural housing which has a far higher likelihood off dedicated parking.
UK housing stock is old, much of it before the advent of cars, or at least of widespread car ownership. I used to live in a street of terraced Victorian houses in west London, thirty or so families with houses 15 foot wide (and thus potential for a 15 foot parking space in front of each house). A Chevy Bolt is 13"6" long, and that's a small car in the USA.
It's a problem the UK government seems to have ignored, aggravated by the high cost of charging away from home.
I live in Eugene, Oregon where every house (even rental apartments) has at least one dedicated parking space, most houses can accommodate 2 or 3 vehicles on their driveways. Getting chargers to those places is still an issue, but now just an economic one (who pays and how much), rather than a practical one.
@@ziploc2000 Thank you you make my point for me EVs work best in city's where 60% cannot charge at home but most do short in milage journeys to and from work
@@ziploc2000 also you cannot drape cables across walkways so your Victorian house theory is not going to work also councils are less keen to offer a crossover anymore, this is because there is less land to absorb rainfall if you cover your front garden in paving, more climate madness from your local council!
@@keithbartlett9947 My Victorian House Theory? Please explain it to me since I didn't propose a theory.