Sighting in the Whitworth Rifle
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- In this video I’ll start the process of sighting in the Whitworth Rifle.
And I’ll see which of the three different types of bullets I have for it perform the best.
Gear you need to shoot a Whitworth Rifle:
• Gear you need to shoot...
Mike Beliveau links:
Patreon - / duelist
Website - mikebeliveau.com/
I was going to say, before I watched to the end and saw you reach the conclusion on your own, that the British patched bullets were not lubed (they had a lubed wad beneath them). I’ve found that lube tends to soak into the paper and can tend to cling to the bullet instead of separating. Dry patched bullets seem to shed the patch easier.
Nice shooting!
My gggrandfather was a sharpshooter in the 2nd Ga. battalion. In the trenches at Petersburg, he and a buddy were watching for opportunities when they spotted 3 yankee officers on horse back that stopped at a small stream and let their horses drink without dismounting. His buddy asked him to estimate the range and grandpa told him a hair over 1000 yards. His buddy told him to watch the guy on the white horse and fired, a couple of seconds later the officer on the white horse fell off. He never mentioned which rifle they were using, so it was either a Whitworth or one of the hand picked Enfield's, but it was an incredible shot. At that range I want to think it was a Whitworth, though they were rare as hen's teeth.
Thanks for making this kind of content, it’s very interesting and not always something all of us can afford to do despite our curiosity
I can enjoy the experience of the whitworth rifle by watching this episode. So much work to get it right. Thanks for demonstrating it.
Mike, my trials and tribulations with firstly the Whitworth and now the Pedersoli volunteer are to long for this post (1) Lee Shaver, Soule sights, front and rear, (2) Lyman 451114 bullets work best for me, (3) 2F FF powder, (4) long powder funnel (5) change nipple and try #10 caps. I could list more but you get the idea, and once dialed in the accuracy will amaze even a veteran shooter such as yourself..
@tacfoley I realize they use musket caps but they perform well with the #10 caps, as for platinum lined nipples, I have used them and have had no problems with the steel nipples. After firing if your hammer is on half cock replace replace the blown out nipple.
Fantastic video. The Whitworth is fascinating.
Evil Roy is a bad boy🤣🤣🤣
Thanks!
Well done Mike. I've always struggled with my whitworths with PP hex bullets but get excellent performance with sized GG conicals. The originals were also shot with conicals as an option. My original 1963 trails rifle has the back sight with increments for both conical and hex.
Mike, I bought a Wyoming Sight Drifting Tool it works great much easier to use and control than a drift and hammer. Enjoyed the video!
I just ordered one! Thanks for the info.
I've never heard of that before, thank for posting this. I think I need to give one a try.
@@duelist1954 I hope you do a video about this tool when you get it, Mike, I'm very interested.
WOW that's as much fun to load as it is to shoot thanks for all your videos.
@Amy Taylor Nice to see a lady enjoys the old classic rifles of yesterday! Nice to see you here Amy.
@Amy Taylor New Jersey How about you?
@Amy Taylor Ok but let me be Honest New jersey SUCKS it has for years but im ok I try to keep a good outlook, Your in PA Cool its nice there I use to go there every weekend Saylorsburg area I like it there but I need a warmer climate as I get older the cold kills me now.
@Amy Taylor Not a whole lot its too hot for yard work and we need rain in the worst way! Made dinner and now checking my mail
Call me Joe please
That’s really cool, I always wanted one of them until I seen your first video, I may still get one one day
I thought I'd see you in here that whitworth is badass and one of histories finest marksman rifles especially of the age
another fantastic video Mike, really excited to see the rest of this series.
Pretty good for the first time out. Thanks for taking us along.
I've been looking forward to this episode. Keep up the good work.
Proud to have met you, one of the top videographers and acknowledged expert in his field to become a substantive standard in his field - all black powder weapons.
Watching again, another masterpiece thank you very much Mike 👍
Long as you only needed one shot that would get the job done awesome rifle from history
one shot, one kill, run, reload and repeat, seems how it must have been done.
Good morning brother from Syracuse NY
Thank you for sharing your adventures in weapons in hii
Another outstanding video.
Thanks!
Wow that was a surprise I always thought the hex bullet would be the best !!!
Hi Mike, thanks for the good investigation on the bullet options. The cylindrical bullets exit the barrel as hexagonal apparently, I don't know if you have a method to capture the bullet. Ballistic gelatine or long row of water jugs may work :)
been waiting for this video for a bit thanks
1000 yrs with the Whitworth rifle is indeed cool, but the Whitworth field piece, with a 5 mile range, presents interesting possibilities.
Thank you
Hmmm, curious. Why did you clean the bore after loading the powder charge, instead of cleaning the whole bore before loading? Also, in the past, you have used alcohol patches to clean between shots and not Ballistol.
Because that's the procedure with a Whitworth
If you do it is easy to push fouling into the flash channel and cause misfires.
@@duelist1954 Thanks, I was confused
As Mr. Beliveau said the tight wadding seals the powder charge. Putting it down before the powder even with a dry patch after could leave moisture in there that would compromise the powder charge. It’s like how I load the powder charge first and then before seating the patched ball I put a spit patch down the bore on a Hawken to reduce fouling residue between shots but I don’t put the spit patch down before the powder because of moisture
...yeah...why???
Good video thanks.
Loading a Whitworth,
Step one, you really, really, really, really, really, really got to like shooting . . .
Jokes aside your rifle, Mike, is an absolute and amazing and more importantly, functioning piece of art IMHO.
Welcome to the Whitworth club! Like you I am still learning the Whitworth ropes. I was about to buy a Lemat revolver when dixie had a sale on the whitworths. Compared to their current prices I got a great deal! I use schutzen caps and tresso ampco nipples and the caps fit pretty good. I use a cleaning procedure that I saw someone on youtube use. It involves removing the barrel from the stock and submerging the breech in a bucket of hot soapy water. While patching the bore water is drawn up into the bore flushing out the bore. Of course great care must be taken to thoroughly dry and oil the bore and exterior afterward. I use wd-40 to flush out any remaining moisture from the breech face and flash channel after blowing out the barrel and dry patching it. This may not be the most advisable method but thus far I have had good results and have not found any traces of rust in the bore. Happy shooting!
I use a similar method,plain boiling water,rag around the barrel to stop burns ,funnel ,breach in a 8” bucket,3 or 4 patch’s pumping the water and a final rinse usually do it,tip upside down,blow out any moisture,the barrel is still way to hot to handle. Leave for a few mins to evaporate any moisture.then heaps of lube 50/50 beeswax,olive oil.on a patch,it melts in,and generally comes out the nipple area,I also smear lube all over the lock edges to fill any gaps ,wipe off afterwards ,this seems to reduce any fouling and I very rarely remove the lock to clean,just a wipe around the hammer and oil..never had any problems,guess I am reseasoning the barrel each time..regards from nz.
Very interesting. It's fun to see you enthusiasm for this novel project!
I hope you have better luck than I did. I had issues with the paper patches. I had some luck with 457 round balls forced down with a brass rob but the range was no better than my 50 cal Hawkens. I bought mine used it came with jags and a bunch of different bullets and a cutter that make wads. I think Navy Arms was the importer. My 1858 Parke Hale shot better without the nonsense. I was very disappointed I wanted it makes the shots I read about like the shot that got Union General John Sedwick.
What a beautiful rifle. Congratulations on your purchase.
i love your videos but the fact the british army was considering this for one of its small arms compared to the enfield. In a battle the whitworth is a beautiful target shooting rifle but in the battlefield i doubt it would of been so great with all the time it takes to load it and all the extra stuff that has to go down the barrel with it. even with the cartridges i doubt you get two a minute.
Whitworth had his own Patent cartridge and the Royal Laboratory designed another, not dissimilar to the Enfield cartridge. These very much improve the efficiency of loading.
Its also a sharpshooters rifle, wasnt ment for skirmishing, or front line action. Slower rate of fire for this kind of weapon isnt exactly what you'd consider a detrimental issue. You'd be firing this generally from concealment or from an elevated position behind the front line, both positions allowing for both slower rate of fire, or repositioning after firing.
Frankly, its not ment for the same kinds of work as the 1861 Springfield or 1853 Enfield. This is, what we now refer to as, a DMR. Its capible, but doesnt excell at standard line combat operation.
You need to study some history, I believe if my memory serves me well, the confederacy had snipers using them in the Civil War, an they were shooting officers out to 600 yds from behind the lines, maybe even farther, an most had sniper platform's up in the tree's to increase there line of sight.
@tacfoley I have examples of original cartridges, instructions on their use, Royal Laboratory ammunition plates. I am well aware of Brett’s work and correspond with him.
Thanks
Thank you for doing this video it seems like the round bullet shouldn’t shoot as good as the ones that’s preformed
It would be interesting to see a gel block with pig bones set up in it at 100 yds or so to see the damage this would do. I’m sure it would be devastating but interesting. People currently don’t have the proper respect for the power of these black powder weapons. Especially with the extended long barrels.
Only been to West Shore once. Saw a guy almost lose his Uzi barrel in a live fire. Very adrenaline inducing.
Don't be ashamed of Glen Rock.....It has great history.😉 Great video! I'll keep it simple, with my Hawken .50. I don't have to learn hexadecimal that way.
I have a theory that first users of these rifles, shoved peanut butter and crackers down the barrel for wadding and lube. I bet that they weren't picky.
Thank you for another great video. That rifle seems to shoot very well for a military issue of that day. I know this is a replica, but I think it pretty close to what they had back then.
Hi Mike. Good video. In Spain, I have seen colleagues shoot with the Parker Hale Whitworth rifle, with a cylindrical and ogival bullet, like the one you use in second place, with a weight of 500 to 550 grains and recalibrated to .451. In Europe, in addition to this projectile greased with special commercial fats, a dose of wheat semolina between the bullet and the gunpowder is usually used. Many use Swiss gunpowder No. 2, (3 FFFg), but in low doses. Between 50 and 55 grains and it works very well at 100 meters. Very accurate. The same accuracy as a Creedmore rifle or the .451 caliber Volunteer of the same brand, that is Parker Hale. With these rifles, many championships are won at 100 meters, but using a diopter as a rear sight and a tunnel with a ring in the front. Affectionate greetings from Spain.
I wonder if using a loading tube for your powder to get all-powder down to bottom without smearing the powder down through the fouling might improve consistency?
Yes!!! i have been looking forward to this.
An excellent video, as always, Mike! This is one of the kinds of things I love--the working up process. Pedersoli really seems to have made a very good reproduction here, as you're not the only person I've seen find them to be quite good. I am really surprised by how low your bullets were hitting. Most English military rifles are sighted for 200 yards, and I find that with both my Snider and Martini Henry I have to shoot way under the bull when shooting at 100 yards to put my hits on the bull. Thank you for sharing!
Mike, try reducing your powder charge to 65 grains of FFFg, and try the hex bullet with that load. I have seen that combination shoot very well in one of the Pedersoli Whitworths, and will be tring it myself, as soon as we are done with the triple-digit temps we've been having all summer long here in the Houston area. The higher pressure of the smaller grain powder should give you about the same velocity, with more a more consistent SD. As we all know, consistency is the key to small groups.
Well done Mike another great educational video
May I ask what for ?
The RCBS bullet always did well in my 45-70. I don't know what alloy you're using but if it were me I'd use 30:1 and forget the lubed wad. Great video! Nice to see a BP bullet gun. Good luck.
Hey!, dont forget the follow through,🙂Greetings from Norway
...wish I'd bought one of these years ago when Navy Arms was selling them
Ever since your previous video, I wondered how the hex bullets would shoot. You mentioned in that video that you had been told the twist rate on the bullet did not match the twist rate of the barrel and should be resized using a section from another barrel. As I pondered that, it seemed that the real problem with the different twist rates would be in seating the bullet because it would bind more during the seating. However, also during the seating of the bullet, you would think it would be "sized" at the same time. But it seems none of that mattered since the hex bullet didn't do so well as one might have hoped. It was a very interesting exercise.
I'm going to try it without the paper patch, and see how it does.
Looks like it will be a nice shooting rifle. BOOM ... DING!
Strange how the actual hex bullets performed worse than the other 2, but so it goes.
I have the Volunteer .451 rifle and have spent quite a bit of time experimenting with various patch/card/felt wad stacks and never really achieved the accuracy I was looking for. I even paper patched several configurations with different bullets searching for the golden load. With all the time and effort I spent experimenting, I achieved groups about the same as you achieved so far. However, after some frustration, I fell onto a load that really really excited me, and I have stuck with it. 75gr 3F loaded under a Lyman #451114 450gr pure lead bullet. Loading procedure is about the same as yours except I swab the fouling before adding the powder and load the lubed bullet directly on top of the powder just settling the load with a bit of firm pressure. I've done the same with Lymans #457132 535gr .457 bullet sized to .451 with equal success. I can't explain why my rifle doesn't seem to like the paper patched bullets (patches applied wet with water and allowed to dry completely) or why the addition of cards, wads and felt don't help. Maybe a future video walking us through the pro's and con's of cards and wads would shed some light on us. Anyway, thank you for bringing us along on your adventures.
Trying very hard to reason out why compression was such a I'll advised thi g in these rifles .....as 100's of years of practical experience and more than a little research has been invested and proves that BP really functions as a factor of compression. The only thing I can fathom is it was a consistency thing ....but I can suggest a mark on the ram rod to provide consistent comprssion.
My great great grandfather was a piedmont sharpshooter in the CSA. Of South Carolina. The history says they had Whitworths but my research says England only sold 100 to the csa. What say you?
Would you consider making a video about Meshach Browning, his guns? Thank you
I remember wanting to buy a Whitworth rifle back in the 1970s.
I'm not surprised the accuracy was off with the Hex projectiles if you were cutting the patch. That's not going to work. For one reason or another it appears that projectile, as patched, is too tight. Don't know what you are using to patch the projectiles but if you're not already using it, try onionskin paper.
That's what I'm using
If you've checked to make sure the patched projectile isn't oversized, and it's okay, I'd just attempt to seat the thing without lube. I presume you're putting the patches on the projectiles damp, to ensure a good tight shrink fit.
Did you try the hex bullet without paper, that is how I shoot them. I put an MVA appature sight sight on mine with the Pedersoli kit, big difference.
I have not. I will though. Do you lube them?
@@duelist1954 i put Rooster jacket on mine, i also after running a wet patch ran a patch of pure Ballistol to lube the barrel.
I would have thought the hexagon bullets would do better as they fit the bore, The only time I heard about the Whitworth rifle before was reading about the civil war. I think it was considered a sniper rifle.
It definitely puts a wallop on the steel.
Thanks✔✔👍👍👌👌
Any theories on why the hexagonal bullet performed so poorly?
Too big with the paper patch.
@@duelist1954 interesting. Looking forward to the next video
Very cool Mike. That nipple protector dangling off the bottom of the gun would drive me nuts. I had a snider Enfield with one a long time ago. I had forgotten how annoying they can be. How do you feel about them? Hard to believe they lasted a day in actual combat. As always - great job on this video. You da man!
boom! Ding! ahhhh, that was niiiiiiicce! 🙂
I have a 36 cal whitworth style bore rifle hand forged in a rough style a long time ago. Really rough hammer forging looks like a back woods home made 150 years old. Have you heard of any body doing that back then ?
Very cool! I’m curious: why did you begin with 1.5 f powder? Not a criticism at all, just curious.
I'd imagine it's either your loading process or your or something else because at 100 yard you're supposed to be able to stack the hexagonal .451 bullets on top of each other. If the barrel is actually hexagonal that is, I've seen some replicas use normal cylindrical barrels instead of hexagonal because of cost.
The barrel is not bored on center. Pedersoli is sending me a new one.
@@duelist1954 ok I figured something was not right because you should have been able to stack the rounds on top of each other but at least they're sending you a new barrel.
muy buenos videos amigo
So in effect you have a very picky hard to feed standard 45 cal side lock, don't see anything from this that any number of 45 caliber cap locks ( or BPCR single shots) wouldn't do equally well. I mean a trapdoor spring field would throw that same combination about as well provided you showed it that much care in loading.
I am amazed that the round bullets work in that barrel. I have always thought you needed the hexagonal bullets. I’m guessing that the powder swages the bullet and keeps the gasses from bypassing the round bullets.
@TiglathPileser3 the RCBS wasn’t hollow based though. Seems to swage into the barrel either way.
Hey Mike, I was wondering what purpose the two hexagonal cutouts serve.
You mean the cards above and below the felt wad? That would be to prevent the lube on the wad from contaminating the powder, and from sticking to the projectile. Oddly enough i do the same loading BPCR for my 45-110 Sharps.
Mike I love the wintworth but I saw a youtuber with the same rifle shooting better with the cylindrical bullets also.
Mike, did you participate in any competitive shooting besides Cowboy and pistol? You've always seemed a solid offhand rifle shooter and I was curious where that skill was developed if not just years of shooting.
Muzzleloader matches, which are just about all off0hand, and good training by my dad.
Hi, why do you clean the bore with powder charge in it? I'm sure you are doing this on purpose, but what is the reason to do so ?
The wads protect the charge. If you cleaned it empty you could push sludge into the patent breech, and impede the priming fire.
Great video. I have question. Groups were wide right and you corrected by drifting front sight. The groups appeared to be low as well. How did you raise the point of impact?
I have since changed the powder charge to 80 grains of 2Fg Swiss, which raised it some. Next,I may make a shim to raise the rear sight slightly.
All things considered, I'd rather have a Sharp's.
Great video! Why the wads? And why clean the bore after the powder been loaded?
So the fouling doesn't clog the flash channel in the patent breech.
Wads are to maintain pressure without adversely affecting the projectile. Powder can stick, and affect trajectory over long range, beyond 400 yards. Also, obturation of the projectile can cause flight stability issues if its extreme. I would imagine itd cause issues at the projectile base and give him groups like seen with his hexagonal projectiles, especially with the hollow base. But gas cutting would be a problem with this bore using anything except the hexagonal projectiles without the wads as well and increase lead fouling to an extreme level.
As for cleaning the bore after powder and wads, the thought seems to be, keeping the vent channel clear for firing.
Did they historically use wads or was it just powder and then a bullet?
On my Pedersoli Brown Bess within two range trips the brass was completed tarnished and patina. How do you keep your brass so shiny?
Brass polish
Two philosophies: 1. Polish with brass polish after a range period or, 2. Clean the brass to remove powder/corrosive products and allow it to develop natural patina. Your choice. shrug.
After watching your excellent preparation (in previous video), and then seeing you shoot your rifle I was dismayed to see your groupings. You suggested your shooting result could be you? Before you even said that, and after your first shot I noticed one thing. The red resting mount moved a lot during your first shot. It moved to much! Can I suggest refining the way you hold the rifle? Throughout the whole range of bullets being shot this changed on and off in movement, and I think that's where your problem is! You are also breathing heavily, and while not a problem it can also vary enough as its not consistent. When you consistently shoot off your mount and you get no movement, that's when I think your accuracy will improve over longer distances. You're a big guy so tucking that rifle in with consistent breathing will, I think help. This is in no a way criticism, but hopefully one small thing to consider, as you master your excellent rifle.
Thanks for the advice.
He did not show us the shot between I load the gun and now I have to clean it
Very nice rifle! But sending a wet patch down on top of the powder charge, even if on top of two fiber wads and a greased felt wad? I would've thought any cleaning would be done after the shot and before sending a powder charge down the barrel.
@TiglathPileser3 Muzzleloaders are routinely cleaned between shots, there are picks used to ensure nipples or touch holes are clear. I've never seen a cleaning wad, wet or dry, used after loading the charge.
Question, the early long tubular sights...Did they all have optics/lenses or were some just tubes and why is it so difficult to find information on them?
Many early one had no glass, they help the eye focus using the pinhole effect.
Good Stuff Mike. Im Learning along with you. This is a horse of a different color, For sure. Joe Security.
thank you for a great video. that is a lot of messin around and and expense for a group like that at 100yd. what would it look like at 500? if i spent that much time and money i would be very disappointed. regular old Hawken will group better with a patched round ball. this is just my opinion and it worth what you paid for it.😉😁👍👍👍
Part of that is my eyes and the standard sights. I may upgrade that
I've been a fan of this rifle for a long time, never had the pleasure to shoot one. So, is it that the Hex bullet was a failure altogether and the British made their own bullet? Or did they prefer prefer their bullet over the Hex design for some other reason? And which one did Confederate snipers use?
Why would lubing the bullets make any difference your thoughts please, I'm just curious. I would have thought the lube would be a necessary part of running a paper patched bullet, didn't know you could load them otherwise. An I would think that a lubed bullet would make cleaning the bore easier, either between shots or at the end of a shooting session. Lucky you to have a " WITWORTH "in your collection, I've always wanted one for there known accuracy, an I prefer side hammer percussion rifles for hunting, rather than all of the newer breech 209 primer guns, but like you I'm old school also. Thx for the vid, enjoyed it
Un=lubes seems to work better in this case.
It seems like a lot of patches , lubing , cleaning between rounds. When you switched to the resized 45-70 bullets , did you use the same patch routine? Finally how many rounds got a soldier get of a minute?
Mister B, shouldn't the whintworth hex bullet be just lubed and not paper patched since you have wads below it?
I'm going to try that.
Nice video. Try just 1% tin in your casting. Doesn't improve accuracy per se, but I find a bit more consistency. I have a NOE grooved and a Lee Medford hollow based. Where did you find your hollow based mold?
Brett Gibbons swaged the hollow based bullets.
@@duelist1954 Thanks ,yes I have a few, thought maybe you cast them as well. Guy in UK sells a Hollow based, rea PITA to cast as it is a single handle,but best bullet. You'll find different paper thicknesses will change accuracy as well. I use .002 vellum.
Just curious. In cleaning between shots why did you load the powder and wads before.cleaning. I realize the wadding should seal out the moisture but I have not seen it done in that order. Enjoy your videos. I’m 75 and have been shooting black powder, especially flintlocks for years.
So the fouling doesn’t get pushed into the patent breech.
Sure is a handsome rifle, I never understood the hex bullet anyway? How many acres is the dualist den? Keep us posted on the ff it would be interesting to see, I bet it shoots better.
The Den is only 6 acres
Loads the same as my volunteer
What is that black thing on your ramrod?
Muzzle protector.
Kind of upsetting the hexagonal bullets didn't do very well.
The rebs would have overrun your position long before you got your second shot off. Too much work to
shoot this old one in my opinion, a flintlock is way faster
Any "winners" try the text number ?
That is a scam. I have reported it to RUclips
What is the purpose of the paper patch on the bullet?
Prevents leading, allows you to load a smaller diameter bullet.
@@duelist1954 ok, I always wondered. Thanks for the reply.
Evil Roy.... Learn how too duck
So in a fight with the Indians, after firing one shot, the White guys would say, " You might as well go back to your village and smoke a couple of bowls, we're going to be here a while."
So many stories about this amazing rifle. Some of the super extreme 1000+ accuracy civil war stories are mistakenly labelled, because the same gun maker designed a canon with the hexagon projectile in a much larger size.
Have seen a video of someone was doing 700 yard shooting sub moa. Then he did some normal mini ball and it was still accurate.
Try and find a hexagon die to make the special projectiles, the original design is better than lame modern round stuff
maybe watch the video
Nice video, although your loading technique is not allowing firm conclusions regarding bullets choice for this rifle. First, having three wads (two cardboards, one felt) is two complex and…useless, bringing unexpected variations in your load. You should start with only one cardboard under your bullet. Cleaning the bore with a saturated patch may be good or not, I have gained more regularity with a simple tip for greased bullet: use of one dry thin felt wad then a second with a few drops of solvent on it, keeping powder away from solvent while gaining sufficient cleaning effect. Second, why are you using two different ramrods ? Use only one, not that of the rifle as it has no grip nor handle to control your move and pressure on the bullet. Third, your sizing of bullets is bad: paper patched hexagonal bullet should enter the bore with no effort, the fact that the patch is partially cut while you start the bullet at the muzzle of the bore is ruining accuracy. I am 99% sure that it explains the poor group you get. Even your greased bullet is not correctly sized: for your rifle I would try .450, not .451 as it requires starter to enter the barrel. Finally (not the least), you should use a long funnel to drive your powder load directly into the chamber. This will bring regularity.
Keep going, this rifle is capable of surprising accuracy !