Alpha Labs - Does an AC Regenerator actually work? Let's find out!
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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We have a PS Audio Power Plant 12 on our test bench. We are going to perform some measurements and tests to see if it actually works!
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@TheAlphaAudio I have friends who have bought and then resold various regenerators including the PS Audio PowerPlant 15 and 20. They actually work if you live in an industrial area with factories and have very noisy electricity, but in standard situations there seem to be more defects than advantages.
Everyone told me they sold them because they limited the dynamics.
In practice, if we connect electronics directly to the power line, its capacitors will be free to charge to the maximum that the line delivers. And for a few milliseconds it will therefore not be limited to 3, 5, 6 kW of the electricity contract, but will be able to recharge much, much faster.
What we have seen from the various tests on ultra high end systems is that it is much better to have excellent power cables, possibly very capacitive and an excellent power distributor, but without filtered sockets.
Another very important thing for the black background is to have a ground box and possibly a grounding pole dedicated only to the electronics of the stereo system.
What do you think about it?
Thank you.
A comparison between sine wave and multi wave would be interesting. Along with a comparison between multi wave strength 1 to 6 and normal vs high current outlets. Based on what people are doing in the PS audio forums, you use sine wave for tubes and multi wave strength 6 for solid state.
I think the phase tune should be left at 0, if the in THD is low. I think this is what PS Audio told me about this setting. Each time I select Auto tune, I get a different number on my P15.
The powerplant will make noise from DC input, but it should eliminate it on the devices connected to it, like you are seeing. Another RUclipsr didn't like the DC blocking performance from the IsoTek product and found the Puritan p156 worked better.
I can't recommend the P12, because of the fan noise. A P15/20 are much better options. Dual P15s with their own dedicated lines would be a good setup.
I plan on upgrading the outlets to Furutech NCF on my P15 in the future.
Great demo and analysis! With all due respect, around 13:50 you commented that the flattened top of sine wave was from DC while that's actually a sum of odd order harmonic distortion like clipping. DC would offset the zero crossing point of the sinewave, not flatten the tops. Keep up the excellent work, your videos are unique and valuable.
Thanks for pointing it out!
Yes it's expensive but in my opinion the best way to go for clean power. I have a P15 and a P20 and I'm very happy with it. The difference is not huge but noticeable.
Also a big advantage is the regulated power output and the low impedance. The power Amp always gets the power it needs because of the large capacity of the capacitors
Indeed. That's also a big advantage.
Demo Shunyata Research
Denali 6000s v2 20amp
20 amp dedicated line 😊
I received a IsoTek mains noise analyzer and tested my PS Audio P15. I found Max reading at the wall outlet and in any outlet on the P15. A $160 Furman power strip reduced it to almost zero. I know you have the same IsoTek tester too.
@@mugen2002 Honestly... That tester is shit. You have no idea what it measures. What frequency? What bandwidth? What is zero? What is max? I have that device and never use it.
Great info, thank you.
Wonderful info. Best of all you make ASR look like a putz. 😂
That is not the goal. I just have my way of measuring equipment.
@@TheAlphaAudioI appreciate your honest aim to represent the measurement equipment in its intended purposes. ❤
@@Nephilim-81 very welcome.
Really good video, thank you.
Keep exploring, testing, & tinkering.
We will!
Great info. Thank you! Do you have examples of what contributes to grid noise in a typical home?
Solar panels, all switchmode power supplies, car chargers... Etc...
Thanks Jaap,, 🍻😎👍
Great video.
I do wonder what people saying it doesn't work really mean? It cost too much? They didn't hear a difference in their system? Or something else?
I'd love to have a regenerator, just not in my budget. Personally it was easier to tell if the AC conditioner was bad in all the systems I've had vs if it was doing its job.
Thanks!
I can see that you are measuring the noise in the Audio region viz. 20 Hz to 20KHz. But which noise are you measuring? If you want to look at the EMI reduction which all of these products, which they all are supposed to do, then you need to look beyond 20KHz till 100 MHz, as your main EMI is lying in that frequency range which is due to SMPS, VFD motors etc. Also see for dB reduction in noise because thats the scientific way of measuring things.
In the review we will publish both. No worries.
@@TheAlphaAudio looking forward to those measurements
When you are testing a device such as this, sold to do the following...
The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products.
And
With your system powered directly from the output of the P12, you can expect far better micro and macro dynamics, as well as cleaner, lower background noise.
And
The results of feeding your equipment with low output impedance are dramatic: unrestrained dynamics even under the loudest passages, an open, wide soundstage that does not collapse with volume and a naturalness to the music that is remarkable.
And so on.
You should really also properly test those claims by measuring the output of a typical audio device and determining if the kit makes any audible improvement there.
When this has been done elsewhere, this type of equipment has consistently shown zero improvement when tested with typically well designed audio gear.
(NOTE - your 0.2dB THD+N improvement on a -80dB noise level is meaningless and a long way from audible. This is at the level of run to run variation, or setup variation such as grounding as you plug from one supply to another. Certainly not enough to be audible, and 10000% not enough to justify the claims I've quoted above)
Okay
Do you have a video where you show the detail of the equipment you're using to measure this? I am curious to try and do this myself (I have a Rigol scope, but the FFT you're doing is probably run in your computer).
I have a Prism dScope III. But you can also use a Picoscope for example. We have a Picoscope 5000 series as well and it is brilliant. The Prism has the right scripts to pre set it for these measurements though. That is very convenient. The AC generator I use to feed it, is a GW Instek.
Music is not fixed sinewave.
I’d be curious to know if the improvement is same on a real music signal. A conditioner has a feedback loop. As any servo, the result is highly impredictable as it will be affected by the amp power demands. Negative interactions could occur. How will it keep the power stable On a musical signal and would THD+noise keep being enhanced ?
ok, that generator does a lot if it cost couple of undred euros... but that cost MUCH more... so thank you, very useful video!
Can you do measurement and video on using Battery power with an inverter.
Essentially battery is perfect but it need an inverter which is a necesary evil to comvert it from dc to ac, the inverter creates some noise tho.
We can try. I don't have an inverter laying around though.
@@TheAlphaAudioTruth !! The Power Plant is a repackaged inverter ACtoDCtoAC you build a 2000 watt for under $1000. Remember it only works up to the capacitor load
@@thinkIndependent2024 of course it works like that. There is no other way to regenerate to AC.
@@TheAlphaAudio A 1000watt inverter should cost about 60 euros, batteries usually more expensive and i have heard from gr research (youtuber) thath higher amps batteries sounded better. Also there is alot of noise reduction cicrcuits, that im not sure the regular inverters use, perhaps a audiophile inverter Might be cool. Alot of potential in this i think.
💯💯💯
I step up to 300v ac, better sound stage and timbre
Is it possible to measure how dynamics are affected? I believe this is what often is described as the downside with powerplants and filters.
I wish we could. That is our biggest challenge.
Let me posit a question. If the majority of recorded music that we listen to has on average just 12dB-15dB of Dynamic Range, how important is it to seek out electronic HiFi components with S/N or DR higher than the -80dB average?
@@bbfoto7248 noise floor is different from dynamic range.
@@TheAlphaAudio
Of course. But the combined Noise floor inherent in the recording, playback equipment, AND listening environment essentially masks and limits the potential dynamic range we can perceive.
Even a very quiet room will have a noise floor of 28dBA-33dBA. So if there are spatial imaging cues in a recording (let's say very low-level room/wall boundary reflections in a concert hall) which might help to give us a sense of the size and "space" or ambiance of the venue, that inherent noise floor of our listening room might mask that information, so essentially dynamic range is reduced or limited.
Can you hear a proverbial "pin drop" when even a very faint jet airliner at high altitude temporarily flies overhead in an otherwise "silent" environment? It makes it way more difficult, if not impossible.
It doesn't matter what the dynamic range is if those very soft/quiet parts in the music or any recording are masked by inherent ambient noise levels when being played back.
Also, while not directly related, just for fun, look up the best possible channel separation specs or stereo "crosstalk" of a high end turntable cartridge/stylus that's used for playing vinyl records.
Some people might be surprised, LOL. Yet somehow there is still heaps of L vs R spatial information when we play back vinyl records such as DSOTM, etc.
How is this any different from a decent dual conversion UPS? It seems to me it's fundamentally the same kind of device, just targetting audiophiles.
Yes. Probably the same technology. But much lower noise and distortion.
@@TheAlphaAudio If you think that's true, you should test one. I don't think so. In the USA, by law, utility power must be less than 5% THD. An inverter generator or a dual-conversion UPS is typically better than utility power. An old fashioned synchronous generator may be as much as 20% THD. Living in Hurricane Alley, I've come to appreciate this. I beleive that there's a point of diminishing return for such consideration of power quality. Such regeneration may well degrade peformance by being reactive to large, dynamic power amplifier loads.
@@MichaelGraves3304 this is 0.1% to 0.2% thd+n. I can measure a ups. I have several laying around.
@@TheAlphaAudioNot just a UPS. A _dual-conversion_ UPS. These are datacenter grade UPSs that fully buffer the load from the utility power. Most people have cheaper "line interactive" UPSs that position the backup power in parallel with the utility power.
Even so, I fail to see how very low THD (
Wirklich super Test des PowerPlant.
Kannst Du vielleicht demnächst deinen Bildschirm teilen und Dein Handling (Umstecken des Prüflings) klein einblenden.
Ich würde mich freuen, wenn ich deinen Messungen besser folgen könnte.
Bitte mach weiter mit diesem spannenden Thema!
Will try it next time. Thanks for the feedback.
But how does it improve the equipment it is connected to ?
Definitely audible. Review will be live early next week.
@@TheAlphaAudio So if it is audible then you should see this in the measurements ?
@@rentabomb well... You see it in the measurements...?
@@TheAlphaAudio The measurements of the equipment it is connected to ?
@@rentabomb yes. We connected a Bryston amp to it and measured the speaker output. You can check the measurements in the written review as well.
Looks like your grid power is pretty clean to start with.
In your lab environment, it's useless, let's be honest.
At home? maybe your power is very different, maybe cleaner, maybe shittier.
Test your power noise before buying such equipment! or buy better audio equipment with better power supplies.
If you have the possibility to test your grid, that would be perfect. And always try before you buy!
PS audio power plants
Power surges in import
Equi=Core much better 😊
I don't get this... Sorry. Maybe cultural thing.
Is it worth the money for such a small improvement?
Who said the audible difference is small?
@@TheAlphaAudio Was the audible difference large? I know some amplifier designers, Bob Carver for example, say you shouldn't use power conditioners with their amplifiers.
Power conditioner is NOT a power plant. I use my entire system with a powerplant it's very big, including my amp. Look up "Doc Audio" and listen to the demos I think you will be blown away
@@mddawson1 like I said in the video... I haven't auditioned it yet.
The benefit of PowerPlants is not just THD, but also power capacity it's able to deliver without lowering it's output voltage (e.g. it's low impedance power source).