Congregations Leaving Denominations: How Hard Can it Be?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 окт 2024
- Churches are leaving their denominational bodies more and more nowadays, like in the ELCA, PCUSA, and United Methodist Church. But it's not the same in every denomination.
![BOLIVIA vs. COLOMBIA [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zg15uVWjuf4/mqdefault.jpg)
This past Monday, the Episcopal Diocese of Forth Worth (ACNA-Episcopal controversy) case was denied to be heard by the supreme court, awarding the $100 million property to the ACNA diocese. www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/john-paluska/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-100-million-property-dispute-between-the-episcopal-church-diocese-of-fort-worth.html?
Interesting information. One should simply focus in on the one, holy, catholic,and apostolic Church.
Every book of the New Testament (except one, Philemon) warns of wolves in sheep's clothing and false teachers who are inside the church. Being united is only so good as it is in truth. The body of born-again believers is the church, the bride of Christ, the "living stones", a "royal priesthood", etc.
These aren't churches they're corporations.
@@562Omar No
they can disagree all they want but the laws of the church are clear .And the justice made the correct legal decision .And so did the supreme court .Its in the church bylaws THEY SHOULD HAVE READ THE FINE PRINT
Very well done and informative, also without bias!
A PCUSA church I served entered into discussions with the local Presbytery regarding leaving to join ECO the new Presbyterian denomination. In a first meeting with the chair of the committee assigned to negotiate the process, after the pleasantries were completed the chair began the discussion of process by saying that “church separations are like marriages that end in divorce. It ultimately comes down to money.” That mindset is precisely what dominates the PCUSA, Episcopal and other such denominations who are bleeding members because of their rapid drift leftward theologically. Sad but it explains the dramatic loss of members in those denominations over the last 30 years.
Well said!
I believe this is only an illusion by focusing on specific statistics. Even after those 30 years, PCUSA still has more than twice as many congregations than all other presbyterian Churches combined. While they have lost quite a number of congregations due to codifying liberal views in 2013, they are still growing organically (new membership and new congregations.). Meanwhile, organic growth of conservative denominations in the US (Presbyterian and otherwise) is flattening. PCA's congregation count peaked about 5 years ago and is struggling to stay there. The ECO has had only a trickle of new congregations since PCUSA's 2013 theological implosion, sending congregations running by 2014. Remember, numbers mean nothing. There's nothing in scripture that says the majority view is the right view, so it's not worth arguing for or about.
I've been waiting for this one. Thank you ❤️
Truth is divisive and those who prefer unity to the truth would end up believing nothing.
Exactly!
United in Truth - Christ’s parting wish.
While true, the sticky wicket is determining the truth.
Unity in the essentials, grace in the rest.
@@prolifefilm8127 Christ is still the head of His church though headquartered in heaven
A few years ago in Connecticut there was a property dispute in the Congregational Church where one side actually used never repealed language going back to the 17th Century when the Congregational Church was the "established" church in Connecticut. (The state actually paid the ministers from taxes, towns and counties were organized by Congregationalist church districts, etc. in Connecticut from the 1600s until the 1820s. Oddly, the practice was simply stopped by vote in the state legislature, never found unconstitutional.) Can't remember how it turned out, only that it was a dispute between an ultra-liberal branch and slightly less liberal one, using legality in force going back to when Jonathan Edwards preached as a Congregationalist. Go figure.
"...A dispute between an ultra-liberal branch and and a slightly less liberal one". See, there is the absurdity. How many degrees difference on the continuum of liberal to conservative. It doesn't take much at all to form a division. To the current hundreds of denominations, there could be thousands. Where does it end?
@@davidcawrowl3865 It ends when all the kids that grew up there end up becoming secular atheists or hardcore "trad" Christians (or somewhere in between, but I feel like most would choose be reactionary) and stop funding these churches
Holding Online worship services only during the Pandemic will increase this trend.
Your work is phenomenal.
Excellent presentation!
Psalms 119:89
For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
All this trouble over property makes me wonder how some church properties are dealt with because they were left to local community for use as a church in a will in such a way that ownership of the property was not able to be passed on to any other body.
Well, a lot of new congregations take their time before buying real estate. In our area, the schools, fraternal organizations, and even the Y rent out space for Sunday services.
This speaks volumes about the "Mainline" Protestant denominations.
It "speak volumes" to you? Explain it to the rest of us? I'm sure we can find different "volumes"
My sister was caught up in the United Methodist Church issue. She was a pastor for a small, politically conservative Georgia congregation. She wasn't an ordained elder and had no say as far as the actual vote went, but her congregation was vehemently opposed to the new language in the book of discipline and threatened to leave the USUMC. She was stressed beyond what any pastor still in seminary should go through.
@@12jswilson "She was a pastor" That's your first problem there, absolutely unbiblical
@@AnthroGuitarist she still is a pastor, just for a different location now
@@12jswilson A woman pastor is unbiblical is what I mean. Women are not to have the authority to teach men according to scripture
This is why independent churches are growing rapidly. And it's also the reason why mega churches are on the rise.
And they're usually private businesses - and are very much personality-driven.
@@Austin8thGenTexan thats all bad news. do we all understand why that is bad news?
nondenominational pastors are snake oils salesmen
Our congregation is in the process of disaffiliating from the UMC. One of the presenting issues was the episcopal form of government; the congregation wanted the agency to be able to pick the senior pastor's successor when he retires in a few years.
Due to an agreement that will govern the formation of new bodies during a pending and now inevitable schism in the UMC, the successor denominations will maintain episcopal polity in which the bishop appointed new pastors. Even with a more conservative Methodist denomination, we didn't like the uncertainty of having a new lead pastor chosen for us by someone outside the congregation.
That is the Methodist way. It may not be perfect but it is our unique way of doing things. John Wesley said, "the world is my parish."
@@eddiehuss5707Some independent Methodist and Congregational Methodist churches and denominations exist to though but they’re either small or rare.
This is why I am Orthodox. The liturgy has been the same since the early Christians. No change with deep respect for Christ, one another and the sacraments. It’s good to be Orthodox. 👍🏼
Mark Forquer. Mark, please give me The Gospel. Thank you.
Mark. Yes. I appreciate the Orthodox. But they split off the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The Church Jesus Christ established. I hope that the Orthodox will return. Again. I respect your ancient liturgy. It's absolutely beautiful. My Church lost a lot when it dropped the Latin Mass. Thank God it is making a comeback.
I was part of a PCUSA church that left for ECO. We owned three properties. The presbytery demanded 7 figures for the main church and the camp but refused to let us keep the other property. They kicked out all the ministries we hosted and sold it. Now it is a mosque.
I know the pastor at EPPC (mentioned in the video) and that is a vibrant church doing excellent work. I'm sure the presbytery is upset about the money they could have made off that property.
I bet the mosque will bring more stability since Christianity has become so petty. The irony.
@@kevinmc62 , nothing ironic to it. Playing by God's rules is far easier when you have no alternative claim to power. I wonder when the last time was that someone in the PCUSA or ECO prayed to become a martyr.
@@JasonGablerwell, Christians don't worship death so
It is hard to look at my former denomination, that being the United Methodist Church, and seeing the divisiveness in full force. Hopefully all will smooth out in time.
Were they ever, really, "united"?
@@dnzswithwombats in hindsight, no
@@fibonacho no I haven’t, but I’m not really surprised
The Dutch PKN merger was a merger between a church that owned all property at the denomination level and a church where individual congregations owned their individual property. At the merger, all property was transferred to the denomination, but congregations had a 2 year opt-out period, and a large number of congregations that owned their own property eventually opted to leave the merger (possibly for this very reason)... which ultimately meant that the merger was only partially successful. Prior to the official merger, the three churches actually collaborated successfully with full communion and even a joint name (Zamen-op-weg, together on the way) for many years.
" Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather suffer the wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves do wrong and defraud. And this to your brothers and sisters!"
The Roman Catholic Church
The Church is one
The Church is holy
The Church is apostolic
The Church is dynastic
The Church is Hierarchical
The Church is messy
The Church is Mystery
The Church is teacher
The Church is Mother
The Church is universal
The Church is sacramental
The Church is authoritative
The Church is visible
The Church is unchangeable
The Church is missionary
The Church is the Kingdom of God
The Church is TRUTH
The Church is the bride of Christ.
The Church is the mystical body of Christ
The Church is in the world not of the world.
Nope.
Pure fantasy. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist before 1054 AD, when it split from the Eastern Orthodox Church. Both originated at that time when each group excommunicated each other.
So sad. The Body of Messiah is not meant to be divided... Maranatha! 🙏🏼
Quit judaizing
@John Doe You are supposed to kick them out if they did something...
@@johncantrell9993 Who is Judaizing? No mention of laws, kosher or circumcision here...
To Hava Bird Thank you! You are so right.
You summed up all presbyterian governed churches perfectly. This also applies to Reformed Churches such as the RCUS. Members pay for the property but the leadership owns it. And my experience with the Reformed Church in the US is that churches with a presbyterian government are the churches that are bullied by the governing body. The RCUS was notorious for having dictatorial Classis members trying to push their weight around.
Everyone wants to practice a form of Christianity that fits them best. I hope Jesus is not left out too much.
With the birth of the internet and social media……it’s been easier for everyone to have a voice and demand that they are right!!!! I don’t need to be right I just need to be saved and knowing Jesus and the most important action he did in human history and having faith in that along with having Jesus in my heart, saved me. All that other kniky knaky stuff doesn’t matter!
This is why the PCA wanted each property to be independent of each congregation. The body is under a presbytery, the property is not.
Judgement day is coming, those who pick and choose what to believe based in culture will answer the God
My in-laws belong to a PCUSA congregation. The town were we live had 2 Presbyterian congregations. The older congregation had a larger building and larger parking lot, but a smaller membership. The building had a lot of deferred maintenance issues. The newer congregation has a newer building, but it was farther from downtown and, because the city had made a street dead end, getting to it was tough, even though the building was on a main thoroughfare.
So, the presbytery decided to close the older congregation, force the newer congregation to buy the older property (at a low-ball price), and put the newer building on the market. Ultimately, the membership of the two congregations were combined.
It just shows that even within the PCUSA, a denomination in which congregations own their property, the denomination still can call the shots.
The LCMS practices "Congregational polity", which means the congregations have the ultimate power in the structure of the synod. The synod can discipline pastors who are in error according to the LCMS, but they cannot take the property of the congregation nor force them to close, and the congregation retains the right to leave the LCMS at any time and retain all of their assets.
Jesus is King and has "all authority" in heaven and on earth now. Denominations and leaders that lord themselves over local churches are wolves. They devour widows' houses. They hold threat over confiscation of all church property and make demands over local member's contributions. Jesus will address every wrong and no one would want to be in the shoes of apostate and milquetoast pseudo leaders pretending to be Christian. The only ones they fool are themselves.
Congregationalism at LCMS size allows for lax adherence to the confessions with no discipline.
@@schmi146 I disagree. There have been several times at which the LCMS has come thiiiiiiiiiiiis close to becoming a non-confessional, heterodox body. The knowledge that confessional congregations can leave if the LCMS stops being confessional is part of what is keeping those confessional congregations in the LCMS.
Trust me, you want your parish to be able to leave the LCMS if another Synodical President like Gerald Kieschnick is elected. The fact that confessional parishes know they can leave without the synod seizing their building (in most cases) if the LCMS goes liberal accounts for much of why there hasn't been a larger movement for confessionals to leave Missouri.
Opposing Gay Marriage and Abortion isn't conservative, its biblical. Now if a church says Jesus votes republican, then yes, its conservative (and foolish) - Joshua 5:13-14 ; "Broadening the acceptable ranges" i.e - accommodating sin rather than being held accountable to the Lord by His word.
Meanwhile
The National Cathedral in Washington DC
Is in favor of gay marriage and abortion
Bingo
about 10 years ago, a bill was introduced in the Virginia General Assembly prohibiting the denominations from holding on to the property of any local parishes that have decided to leave. Unfortunately, that bill did not pass.
Interesting. I Imagine such a bill, if it did pass, could be challenged all the way up to the Supreme Court. Thanks for sharing, I was not aware of any such legislation.
The courts uniformly see to whom the property is deeded. The Episcopal Church required its parishes to deed their assets to the local diocese and most of them did. St. Stanislaus Kostka, formerly Roman Catholic, was expelled from the Diocese of St. Louis because it refused to hand over its deed for fear that the diocese would sell it off, leaving the Polish-American community without a parish they supported even when it was in the middle of the projects.
The bill in the Virginia General Assembly would have ordered the legal owners of property to give it to somebody else without compensation. That is unconstitutional and would you like to have your assets transferred to somebody else without your permission nor compensation?
What happened in Fort Worth seems unusual, but that diocese was one of the four who wanted out of the Episcopan Church.
My church had to pay $1.2 million to buy their building from the PCUSA and was barred from joining the PCA, so they had to join the EPC. I'm proud, though, that they had the fortitude to do so when faced with so many challenges.
That's insane.
How were they barred from joining the PCA? Was that part of the settlement?
@@loganpeck5084 From how I understood it, the PCUSA wouldn't sell the building if they joined the PCA.
Great video!
So glad I'm Catholic
This was fascinating! Thanks.
Can I just say that's it's actually a really good thing that lawsuits over property are more common than lawsuits over child abuse? Like ideally there wouldn't be any lawsuits at all but I'll take it
most of the child abuse happens in nondenominational churches behind closed doors
I am not even christian, but I watch this channel because it’s, simply putting, so very interesting
Leaving is a often matter of a congregational vote but then the real costs set in. Sometimes the parent organization sues the local congregation-this has happened in the Anglican Church of Canada and the Episcopal Church USA. I have no doubt that it has happened-or will do so-in other denominations.
When a great majority of a congregation wishes to leave a Denomination but the Denomination will not them take the property, they are usually condemning the remnant with little leadership or means to carry on, let alone thrive. It is pain rattling around in a big building. The Kingdom of God is hardly served the way they think it ought to be.
Twice, I have pastored the remnants of a congregation after a large faction split away. The first was a congregation in Newfoundland, Canada. A Pentecostal revival happened in this then Methodist Church in the 1920s. After a bitter fight, most of the leadership and the people left, leaving a small congregation and a big building. Sixty years later when I arrived, they were still feeling the pain, still hadn't their feet under them. They just spent a lot of time hurting one another.
The second was a congregation in rural Ontario. In 1968, the Evangelical United Brethren in Canada merged with a more liberal United Church in Canada. In this little congregation, again, leadership and most of the people walked. Denominational rules said they had to abandon their building so they built another church down the road. It was very painful because it split families and neighbours. Those that stayed probably stayed because their ancestors had built that building. This remnant struggled on for another thirty years before they just got old and let the place be gently closed down.
As Orthodox lad this is super helpful
In your estimation, is it predominantly mainline or progressive denominations that fight to retain the property of exiting congregations? Based off all the examples I can think of, conservative denominations allow congregations to leave with their property, where as progressive denominations fight to force the leaving congregation to give up their property upon leaving.
That's hard to say. There are definitely conservative denominations that own the property (CoG mentioned in the video for example, and another example would be the Free Methodist Church). What seems to be a common theme is that the older mainline denominations own property, and those denominations that have left those denominations often decide not to. Since in the current situation most of the mainline denominations are more progressive and those leaving are more conservative, it ends up looking like there is a causation there. I think there is a correlation, but the causation is not that they are progressive, rather that they are older and do things "the old way". Especially in denominations without congregational polity, the congregation owning its own property is the "new" way to do it.
Well I know what Paul had to say about going to court and suing a brother in Christ.
When convenience and preference trumps sound Biblical doctrine. Jesus said that those who are faithful in the little things, will be faithful in the big things.
I have know church of God churches to be given the options of buying their land and buildings. In north Georgia. But as a licensed minister in the COG I hate this. Although originally it was to protect the local congregation it has gone overboard
I this less-than-perfect world, it seems to me that the closest any denomination can come to an “ideal” policy would be to choose between a) The denomination “planting” new congregations in the sense of providing church buildings that the local congregation can use so long as they remain within a specified range of such things as doctrine, discipline, political involvement and worship style or b) Local congregations raising the money or/and providing some of the materials and labor so the local congregation “owns” the property and can choose to remain in “association” or “conference” with congregations of a given denomination or change denominational affiliation whenever a specific percentage (2/3 for example) of the local members prefer to change - or to become “independent” in the sense of dissolving their affiliation without assuming a relationship with another denomination.
One variation on the second plan above might possibly be for the denomination to have a “revolving fund” to which local congregations contribute specific amounts of their local budgets and are then eligible to use those funds to build or buy church buildings as their ongoing needs might be - on condition that the funds used for such new or used buildings must be “paid back” into the revolving fund.
Best solution: become completely independent. Then if an independent congregation wants to voluntarily support a denominational work (such as the mission boards of the Southern Baptists) they can. It is highly unlikely the SBC will refuse the $$$ unless it comes from a liberal group (but that group likely wouldn't fund SBC work anyhow).
Matthew 7:15 “Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves.16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them.
When will you focus on Slavic Pentecostal Churches in association to Assemblies of God through the National Slavic District?
On Church of God. They now have an exception. If a church body wants to join the organization. They can keep ownership of their property if they later want to leave.
Well done video. I'm so glad to not be in a denomination.
Non-denominational churches are the equivalent of the thirty year old bachelor living in his mothers basement. Doctrine means something.
Can be dangerous
Oh but that's where you're wrong my friend. Look up where your pastor went to seminary and where your church gets its teaching materials. There you will find that your church is indeed part of a denomination even if it claims otherwise.
"Non-denominational" churches virtually all fall into one of three categories: Baptist in all but name, Charismatic/Pentecostal in all but name, or some combination thereof. They claim to "just believe what the Bible teaches" but since there is no unified world Christian consensus of what the Bible teaches they have to get their frame of reference from somewhere. Typically that somewhere is from either Baptist or Pentecostal resources.
Show me a non-denominational church and I'll show you either an Independent Baptist church or a free Pentecostal church. Tell me where you go to church and I guarantee I can find ten other churches in your area that believe exactly what your church does and practice exactly as your church does and would have no problem entering into fellowship with each other even if they refused to call it a denomination.
Liberal congregations being able to easily leave is also a good thing. Imagine if the congregations who followed Seminex to form the ELCA had not been able to leave easily. We'd still be stuck with them and the result would be that the LCMS would be like the ELCA but there would be no synod like the LCMS to retreat to (the WELS being the closet alternative but they're not as confessional as they claim).
Also do a video on African indigenous churches such as Zion Christian Church
Or the Reformed Christian Church of God. They're growing quickly and have their HQ on a 700-acre plot of land in the middle of nowhere (though still in the DFW area officially).
Another POSSSIBLE reason behind growing secessions of churches and denominations over the point of Gay marriage COULD BE the funds they are receiving from city council compared to funds they are left with if they remain in denomination. No body is throwing light on that part. Will they receive more funds/aids from city council whose primary requirement is acceptance of LGBT community?
UMC, Episcopal have a very long time ago departed from traditional Christianity. The fact they they are legally seizing properties to "motivate" compliance is very telling. Empty buildings, dead small congregations and a lot of valuable real estate that the UMC/Episcopal obviously covet. (hmm which commandment was that LOL)
Jesus never intended His church to be an organized, institutionalized entity with huge edifices, plus priests, pastors, bishops, etc. The real Christian church is simply a spiritual brotherhood of believers.
@ Joseph Van, the letters of the New Testament and Acts of the Apostles with the writings of the early church fathers all point to an organized, hierarchical church. Time for you to get acquainted with the real history of Christianity. It will be illuminating and beneficial for your spiritual life. Happy reading.
A good place to start is the writings of Ignatius of Antioch -- a second-generation Christian writing at the turn of the 2nd century -- and Clement of Rome of the 1st century -- he wrote to the Corinthians.
How do you know?
@@PianoForte9096 As far as the writings of Ignatius goes, a big chunk of them are spurious, and those that are not, were edited by a later scribe.
On the first epistle attributed to Clement, his name no where appears in this letter. Chapter 1:1 says, "The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which
sojourneth in Corinth." One church writing a letter to another church with concerns, is the actual truth here.
The Nicolaitans in all their mess. I didn’t hear anything about Calvary Chapel Churches. Where do they fall in this scheme?
A Calvary Chapel church can leave at will. The Calvary Chapel Association doesn't own any church property.
ALL denominations restrict the ability for us to hear and obey the Holy Spirit which robs the ability to fully come to know the Father through the Son.
You mean Warehouse Jesus?
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness
God make a way in last days
We have attended churches of "several" denominations in the last 30+ rules. When we worship in a church belonging to a denomination that keeps the property, I advised that the "conservative" folks set up a separate charity than accumulates property (of whatever type) which the charity permits religious organizations to use under a temporary license from the charity. The conservative members would send most of their "church money" to the charity and just barely keep the church alive. If the church behaves it will be "loaned" whatever it needs. If it doesn't the charity can take back what it loaned. In the fullness of time, the charity might even make a loan to the church to purchase real estate. If the church doesn't pay the mortgage the charity gets the property.
Interesting concept but what's to stop the charity from ultimately becoming as liberal as the church body?
@@reedermh -- Well, the same way a independent church usually (but not always) stays on the straight and narrow because the directors/contributors run it that way. In theory any independent church can be "captured" but I've only seen it once and that was brought about because the "religious" head made the old regulars uncomfortable so they moved to a "conservative" denomination. They left behind the fruits of more than a decade of contributions and work but they were happy at their new place. I understand the building is now the base of another conservative non-denominational group. I guess the old-timers might consider it to have effectively been a mission.
Mark 13 : 14 - 20 When you see “the abomination that causes destruction” standing where it does not belong - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down or enter the house to take anything out. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that this will not take place in winter, because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now - and never to be equaled again. If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.”
Could you do this but cover Orthodox and Catholic churches
I am wondering about catholics and mormons.
Where to put them? How do they act? With whom do they cooperate?
Happy day of the Sheepherds Joshua
But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. Matthew 20:25-26
Sadly, many "believers" think it takes a person with a doctorate in Biblical Studies to explain God's Word. Not so...If you have a 6th grade education, read it yourself. Then, don't compromise a single bit.
I disagree. Most 6th graders do not study greek or latin.
@@gavasiarobinssson5108 I would agree if we were talking about Ezekiel. Romans 1 is pretty simple and consistent with accurate translations.
You don't absolutely need a person with a doctorate in Biblical Studies to explain God's world, but in my opinion not knowing the context behind the words you are reading and that specific translation you are using can be dangerous, and quickly devolve into you making up your own interpretations that are totally out there. It's easy to say "don't compromise" until you realize the word in itself isn't always so black and white. That is why historical context is important to understand the word, and once you understand it is easier to not compromoise.
I absolutely agree.@@danshakuimo
possibly a follow up to this would be churches that change their names . this can either be a local congregation or a whole denomination . explore why this happens . does it turn out to be positive or negative and what happens when a church due to things divisive splits into 2 .
This is part of why I left the Roman Catholic Church. They kept merging and changing the names of existing churches. They also stopped using saint or other traditional names.
Hmmmmmmm. Acts 11:26, it works for me.
In the area cult movements regarding the j.witness org , all Kingdom Halls are financially owned & ruled by the Watchtower org
So “to hell with what Paul says, let’s sue them”.
Better call Saul
.... It all boils down to "Who owns the building?"
Yep. The love of buildings is the root of all evil.
@@gavasiarobinssson5108 .. No, it's the financial equity in those buildings.......
Major issue with proselytising, particularly those congregants who primarily feed from the pulpit with zero biblical knowledge or inclination for personal study. Knowing where your allegiance and worship lie should straighten that out. Everything else is a waste of breath
Each congregation should be autonomous, self-supporting, and free of outside governance. This is the New Testament model.
Really? " I left you behind in Crete for this reason, so that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you:" Titus 1:5 Appointed, not elected.
@@inwalters WHO is directing Titus? The Apostle Paul...who also established elders in each church he started, for local leadership. He didn't establish a "regional" directorate.
@@Mr5thWave He didn't, you're right, because that had already been established in the Apostles and their successors
So, anyone can start an Independent churches like the Independent Baptist Churches, that means Independent Lutheran Churches and AFLC is pretty much the same?
Do you see a church splitting and reforming as an evidence of how far from God men and women become? How would you choose a church to attend?
Enlightening
Pastor's pensions are another issue...
Truth! Most of us pastors barely make enough to survive. That’s because we aren’t doing what we are doing for money. It’s called service for a reason.
Jesus would say " YOU'VE ALL GOT IT WRONG!"
To every single one of us!
PCUSA is such an embarrassment. Trying to force novel liberal “doctrines” on those who do not agree with new forced interpretations.
I was honestly suprised anyone took the mainline "traditional" protestant denominations seriously, it was either non-denom evangelical or one of those trad apostolic ones. Well, until Redeemed Zoomer showed up wanting to reform the PCUSA lol.
So which one is the true faith? The Reformation was more of a cause of the division of Christendom rather than what Christ desired that all would United in His Church. Also, the teachings handed down from the early Church Fathers from the very beginning and so on.
Without God given authority Protestantism will continue to divide and divide and divide and divide.......For a system that swears by sola scriptura, there is no Denominationalism to be found anywhere in the Bible.
Well done but very sad. Jesus must sstill weep over Jerusalem.
You don't have this problem with church groups that have no hierarchy beyond the local church. If one congregation decides to move away from it's original theology, then it simply moves away from it's original theology. The greater fellowship of churches simply no longer remain in fellowship with the renegade church. Simply break, with least amount of problems. Typically the local churches own their own property, and are in fellowship with like minded churches, so not so much messiness as with hierarchical churches. Usually the offshoot church will change it's name anyway, but when they don't it just makes it more confusing.
it's not good for believers to be outside of correct theology
How easy can it be to leave a denomination? You just walk out of the door. That easy. And still remain a Christian? Of course. Like me!
On a personal level, absolutely. Even if a church tries to say you can't leave because you're under "discipline", they can't compel the courts to make you attend services. You just become another name on the roll. But on a congregational level, the congregation will either be able to take everything (generally the case in Southern Baptist churches) or nothing (most mainline groups).
@@reedermh I answer to God! Not man. Meanwhile, there is a church in India, several actually, that I still financially support, that see me as a leader. I administered a parachurch organization that helped about 400,000 Christians after the founder, a good friend, died from cancer. I was called to settle disputes, almost daily. They wanted to lift me up high positions but I always declined. I was just an administrator getting funds where they were needed. Investigating fraud when it occurred. I found a larger group to take over. I continued to financially help six churches in southern India. There is where my heart is. There is where my money goes. I give nothing to American churches.
There are over 38,000 Protestant sects due to people picking and choosing what to believe based on their human egos not truth. That is the essence of heresy! The word heresy comes from the Greek word for 'to choose', and that is why Protestantism is heresy! Jesus of Nazareth founded only one Church, which is the Catholic Church!
While the splintering of Protestantism is somewhat sad and certainly has its disadvantages, it also increases the likelihood of true, individual Christian churches being established.. 'spreading the risk', you might say.. for when there is an attempt at a one world church, as with Catholicism, there is a huge risk of that same church at some point becoming corrupted, and evil, as with Catholicism. And besides, the Bible literally prophesied the rise of a wicked, Babylonian and worldwide church.. the Catholic Church. How can you defend the brutally incorrect theology of that awful body? Bible Protestantism ( ie Christianity ) is the one true faith! From a converted Catholic
This is a prime example of watered down Christianity. You get a bunch of random "organizations" that are no longer church's and no longer teach the authentic word of God. This is the problem with Protestantism.
The problem is not Protestantism, but contemporary religious/cultural effects.
@@davegibbs6423 it’s Protestantism
@@PInk77W1 No, it's not.
@@davegibbs6423 Jesus said father let them be one.
Paul said let there be no division among u.
Protestants say start your own church 30,000x.
Yes, Protestantism is the problem
@@PInk77W1 No, it is not.
In 1563, Trent codified Rome's errors.
Even ancient Israel broke up.
The union is in Christ.
Does anyone believe that the LGBT??? community is concerned about the Gospel of Jesus Christ? or is that community aiming to disrupt Christian groups who seriously seek Truth? Are the tithes of the LGBT??? members as generous as the traditional members? Does anyone dare ask why a group comes in to change the basic doctrines when they could have joined an established group that clearly agreed with their desires?
I am excommunicated:
.
Romans 9:25-26
It is as he says also in Ho·se´a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; 26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
.
Excommunicated
Denominations are outright spoken against in 1 Corinthians. Why is anyone surprised that this whole system is a mess? God said to come out of the harlot not reform it.
the answer then is who most adheres to first century Christianity.....
According to your Bible it says only Orthodox Jewish rabbis are the only people qualified to interpret scriptures Deuteronomy 17:8 through 11
What they don't teach you in your Christian Church
@@3wolfsdown702 ...for the Law Covenant that's true but Jesus set up a new covenant that did away with the Law or old covenant....
@@veseyvonveitinghof7088 so you're saying Jesus did away with the Ten Commandments I think not your following Paul's teachings not Jesus
@@3wolfsdown702 ...no, i did not say that. The principles of the 10 commandments still apply but the Law Code is vast and extremely detailed to the point that no one could apply all the strictures, that's why it was called "a tutor leading to the Christ". Living by Christian principles, well enumerated in the NT, shows a maturing much like a teen getting more freedom and not having every little rule spelled out as when a small child...
Where does "religious freedom" play into all of this? Why is "church property" even an issue?
Religious freedom is at a personal level. Any American can hold to whatever belief in religion or spirituality s/he wants, including none whatsoever. The property issues come in due to the varying structure of denominations. The Catholic Church holds title to all property and assets, a parish can't break away without forfeiting everything. On the other end of the spectrum is the Southern Baptist Convention, which doesn't hold title to any local congregation, a congregation can break away and the next Sunday nothing really changes. (In the latter case, a congregation can put in deed restrictions saying that if it ceases to be SBC affiliated the property reverts to the SBC or one of its state conventions or local associations. But that's the congregation's decision, not the SBC's.)
Jesus would have let them go with no strings attached.
I would have though that leaving a denomination would be as difficult as leaving a job. just say I'm outta here and leave
For an individual, yes. For a congregation, it's quite another story.
Isn it a congregation is made up of many individuals? Bottom line is money & properties that r involved in a split.
No big deal. There are already tens of thousands of man made Protestant denominations all teaching different things yet reading the same Bible. I wonder how many of these churches read things like 1 Cor 1:10. Jesus created ONE Church. He didn't say, If you don't like what my Church teaches, you can break off and form your own. 1500 years after Christ, Martin Luther decided differently.
Welcome to America.
I'm a Roman Catholic, and this seems really bizarre.
I just joined the Catholic Church from Protestantism and am glad to have left behind that crazy system of rules and ahistorical claim to authority. Keep the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith
@@PianoForte9096 I'm glad you have thought this out, and found richness in the Catholic Church - but as a Catholic also,I also see the Protestant churches as in a way a critique of the Catholic Church, the ones that really go back to Luther, Calvin, Zwingli. There is a richness in the Catholic Church I think, that no other human way of being human can provide.
Bleep, what a massive mess.
Just return to the Catholic Church and let go of this madness.
Can the priest keep his hands off the altar boys?
Getting rid of organized religion all-together would solve the musical chair syndrome of people's "beliefs". Give me a preacher who just teaches straight from the Bible, nothing added, nothing discarded.. that's all the Church I need.
That’s exactly why there are thousands of denominations. Each person preaching “straight from the Bible” is using his own, personal interpretation (exegesis) of what the verse or passage MEANS.
Church is a building though, a house of God. It specifically means that.
I wonder if a Catholic Church or Catholic Diocese could ever leave the Catholic Church
That's basically what happened with the Church of England.
@@ReadyToHarvest .Every church that claims its foundation in the reformation left the Catholic Church.
Google "Old Catholic Church". They maintained valid apostolic succession, but are not under the Pope of Rome...
@@Kevin_Beach But not all took parishes or dioceses with them. You are right though that there was quite a bit of that happening at the Reformation.
In the Scranton PA area back about 100 years ago the Roman Catholic Church tried to keep out the Russian Orthodox Church and also upset Polish Catholics who ended up starting the Polish National Catholic Church.
Every denomination restricts our ability to hear and obey the voice of the Holy Spirit for ourselves which robs our ability to fully come to know the Father through the Son.
That's a blatantly false blanket statement. That's saying that the body of Christ prevents you from receiving the Holy Spirit.
@@nashvillain171 I didn't say that denominational membership prevents you from "receiving" the Holy Spirit. I said it robs us of being able to FULLY come to know the Father through the Son. Accepting a denominational doctrine is accepting someone else's definition of who God is and how He works which can keep us from hearing and obeying the Holy Spirit for ourselves.
So God is something different to everybody?
@@nickspitzley8539 Apparently for 2536, despite what scripture says, attending church is a barrier to God.
@@nickspitzley8539 your comment makes my point... Instead of reading my comment and seeking to fully understand the limitations denominational doctrines can play in our understanding you seek to twist my comments as a way to defend them. But if you know of a denomination has everything right about who the Father is and how He works, please let me know.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 KJV, Jesus Christ is the only way..
Jesus said
Father let them be one
Unless you're Hindu, or Buddhist, or Muslim, or any of the hundreds of other religions in the world.
@@spuriouseffect they don’t compare to
Christian
@@PInk77W1 That's exactly my point. You can't say Jesus is the only way for people of other religions.
@@spuriouseffect if any Hindu or Muslim or atheist or Buddhist gets to heaven, it will be become of Jesus. Period.
Jesus is God. Jesus is the way to heaven.
But God is love, so a good Muslim or a good Hindu or a good atheist has a better chance at getting to heaven than a bad Christian.
Jesus said
“I have not seen this much faith in all of Israel.”
Talking about a Roman soldier who had a sick servant and was asking Jesus for help
It’s so weird how churches don’t teach being born again WHEN THATS EXACTLY WHAT JESUS HIMSELF TAUGHT
You have quite NAILED IT.
Particularly when the apostle John states that
Jesus is the WORD of God. Chapter 1, verses 1-18.
So-called “high” church and “low” church are terrible terms because what “high” church means to many is superiority, while “low” church must then mean something inferior. And most of the time the supposed distinction is entirely subjective. Love your channel but I wouldn’t use these terms.
Yeah. Like how does a very ornate Roman Catholic Church rank on such a scale if it's mass is only 20 minutes long?
Those terms have always been used in the discipline so to not use them would make it harder to explain. You would have to say "more traditional architecture and worship style" or "more contemporary worship style and architecture" every single time. I'm not sure if that bias existed when they came up with those terms though, but some people think high is bad since it's snobby aristocrats and low is good since it's humble and represent the common man, so I guess it balances out.
amen
Organized church teachings are only as good as they are biblically based
Interesting - and who decides that? (Leaving aside that there are few who can read Greek, let alone Hebrew.)
The bible decides that. You don't have to be a scholar to understand it but you have to be willing to adhere to the teachings of it.
@@chuckoaks6756 The Bible is a set of ancient texts. Texts on their own decide nothing, readers of them do. I would say that some knowledge of the contexts in which the books of the Bible were written is important in getting at their meaning. Besides there are many different translations, and the discovery of The Dead Sea Scrolls has added to our knowledge of the New Testament world immeasurably.