Romans in the Americas? | The Tecaxic Calixtlahuaca Head
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- Опубликовано: 31 мар 2024
- #TecaxicCalixtlahucaHead
#PreColumbian
#Roman
There are plenty of crazy theories about Pre-Colombian contact between the Old and New Worlds (excepting the Norse who we do definitely know came to North America at least once). There is, however, an artifact which maybe, possibly, suggests a one-off Roman discovery of the Americas.
SOURCES:
The Roman Head From Tecaxic-Calixtlahuaca, Mexico: A Review of the Evidence, Hristov et al
The “Roman Figurine” Supposedly Excavated at Calixtlahuaca, Smith
The Calixtlahuaca Head, McColloch
Reply to Peter Schaaf and Gunther A. Wagner’s “Comments on ‘Mesoamerican Evidence of Pre-Colombian Transoceanic Contacts’”, Hristov et al
List of territories conquered by the Romans
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I just want to say I really love your videos. Your attention to detail, transparency about what's real and what's conjecture, your intangible ability to convey all kinds of information in an interesting and engaging way, and your sober way of speaking. I'm always glad when I see you've uploaded a new video.
Glad you like them!
We know there's a good chance that Pytheas, the Greek from Massalia, explored north of the British isles during the second half of the 4th century BC and we know Himilco, the Carthaginian navigator and explorer, also left the Mediterranean and explored the northwest coast of Europe in the late 6th or early 5th century BC. Hanno the Navigator, a Carthaginian explorer of the 5th century BC, explored the west coast of Africa. The Romans had seen the Shetland Islands north of Scotland by AD 43. People used to say Mediterranean ships couldn't survive in the Atlantic but they obviously could. That doesn't prove they crossed over to the Americas but it does allow you to entertain the possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if there were, over the centuries, multiple contacts made.
Sailing near the Atlantic coastlines of Europe and Africa, never far from potential landing spots to obtain provisions, is one thing. Making the lengthy voyage across the vast ocean to the Americas is a whole different ball game. It's not absolutely impossible, but it is extremely unlikely. The sailing ships of the European colonial era were very different from the ships used by the Greeks, Romans and Carthaginians in antiquity (which were lighter, made less efficient use of the sail, and were more heavily crew-laden and therefore required more food and water either stored aboard or available no further than the next port). I personally think it's much more likely that one or two ships over the centuries could have been blown toward South America by a fierce storm than that anyone ever deliberately made the voyage. If anyone did get there, it would have been by sheer chance, and they surely never got back.
@@kawadashogo8258 I read about the modern recreation Ivlia (bireme ship) and the crew reported that these ships were far more capable in the open ocean than is popularly believed. I would assume water/food would be the limiting factor. The wikipedia article on the Ivlia mentions Pytheas, Hanno, and Himilco likely using biremes and it really makes you wonder if it was attempted. If Hanno circled the Cape Verde islands like Pomponius Mela and and Pliny the Elder seem to suggest he was closer to South America than he was to Carthage if they were aware of the Canary Current. Interestingly, Mansa Musa was aware of the current 160 years before Columbus made his voyage because his predecessor left out on an Atlantic exploration trip around 1312 AD and never returned.
Phoenician Sailors likely circumnavigated africa as early as 600 BC by order of the Egyptian pharaoh Necho II. While we have only one written source (Herodotus) and he reported only little about it, there is one detail that make him discount the report: The sailor report that the hand the sun to their right (so in the north). Made then story unbelievable then, makes it plausible today.
He also reports it took them 3 years and they stopped two times and sewn fields and awaited the harvests. this kind of suggests, they that this expedition ships, had quite some endurance and were not (completely) reliant and quick resupply from foraging.
Additionally, Pythagoras and Aristotle already suggested a heliocentric model. Eratosthenes did measure the earths circumference to be about 42000 km around 200 BC.
Main Problem would have been, that ancient vessel really were bad at sailing into the wind. and unlike in the indian ocean you don't have the monsoon which changes direction seasonally. blow of course and stranded almost certainly, maybe some expeditions, but they likely failed to return. Columbus did had the advantage of the knowledge about the trade winds used by the Portuguese. That knowledge did come about from regular extensive voyages. it's unlikely that this was going on in the antik, without leaving any trace.
Hugging the coast lines that would offer shelter in storms is one thing but crossing the Atlantic is different. Especially with all the shipwrecks in the Mediterranean of coast hugging and having some knowledge of the weather patterns
@@kawadashogo8258how vast do you think the Atlantic is between America and Europe? The largest jump is from Faroe Islands to Iceland which is 250 miles. The Roman and earlier Ptolemaic as well as Indian ships were going to Malabar coast in India from the gulf of Aden for 1700 miles of uninterrupted ocean since around 300bc.
The band of Romans being blown off course and their ghost ship being discovered in the Americas was an absolutely fascinating idea. It's so worth it to watch these videos until the end. Very good content here, thanks for taking the time.
You’re welcome!
Makes a lot of sense. The Greeks were expert sailors and could have been blown off course and hit Brazil. Same with the Phoenicians, who were said to been the first to circumnavigating Africa, years before the Romans.
@@guyfawkesuThe1 There is some problems with that though, 12 infectious diseases that killed between 90 and 95% of the population of the Americas in the 16th century to be exact. A couple of people might not have had any of those diseases but any kind of larger contact would have killed off people far earlier but also had stopped the dying off in the 16th century which is what allowed Spain's conquest.
So I don't think there could have been much contact. A tiny contact, like the ones the vikings from Greenland had in Canada is certainly possible but larger contacts would have made world history play out very differently.
I have other worries about a Roman artifact being buried in a grave in the late 1400s, it would had been a thousand year old terracotta artifacts by then. in very good shape too. That seems very unlikely, there is something fishy going on here. Either it was buried far earlier or it isn't Roman.
If the grave was from 300 CE, it would make far more sense. Or, heck, if the artifact were in gold that is far more likely to survive for a thousand years.
That of course makes it very unlike it came with any early western explorers either, unless it actually are from around 1500 CE and on a ship. We do know that a Spanish ship wreck in Mexico in 1511 which is a year too late, so could the dating of the site be one year wrong? Possibly.
My conclusion is that we need to find more similar artifacts to really understand what was going on, but many pre Columbian contacts with the New world is out.
@@loke6664 I seem to recall hearing that there is _some_ evidence that the natives in North America were actually recovering from a pandemic when the Europeans arrived, which is why their population density was so low. Of course, that's the North.
But suppose a Roman (or other in that period) ship was blown off course. If I recall the stories about Columbus correctly, they would most likely not have had enough provisions for the journey. So it is entirely possible they were dead before arrival. If so, it is entirely possible that the ship crashed against some rocks and sank before reaching the actual coast, and a few things from the ship might have been washed on land. Maybe that statue was in some container that could float but arrived broken. Someone found it and it became a valuable property. Or maybe they found the full figure, but it broke some decades later, who knows?
Not saying that is what happened, only what could have happened and not created a pandemic.
Also, for the times to work out, it must have been after the oldest time the statue was created, and before the last time the burial could have happened - which is a somewhat larger range of time than discussed, and such a ship could have been of any seafaring culture in that range, not just Romans. Maybe something just a generation or two before the Spanish.
@@KaiHenningsen Yeah, it could certainly have floated with a wreck, that is plausible.
I haven't read anything about a pandemic before 1519 when Cortex spread smallpox and bunch of other diseases into Mexico. Sure a Spanish ship for the Canary island could have blown of course a bit earlier, reach the Americas and never return to report for some reason even though that sounds unlikely since you generally didn't stock up 2 months rations on ship.
But a Roman terracotta statue buried a thousand years after it was made seems incredible unlikely, very close to impossible.
The likeliest is still that it was a Spanish artifact in Roman style that arrived with a wreck from Hispaniola. We know a whole fleet of ships were wrecked by a hurricane at the time of Columbus last journey, that fits the timing.
"Well, it has a beard, so it has to be ancient roman, right?" The idea that the head is roman is based in typological analysis on a damaged object, is not very reliable.
Its simply more likely that nordic or early spaniards expeditions brought an old sculpture with them and traded it away. Then precolumbian exchange networks did the rest with something that would have been considered a luxury item.
That's a good explanation, very plausible
Mantle Site nnorth of Toronto had a European iron wrought axe traded to the Huron a hundred years before first contact. The archeologists speculated axe was traded from a Basque whaling station in Newfoundland
While that is very possible, I don't know that I'd call it "more likely" necessarily. Looking at how the yearly tracks of tropical storms and hurricanes cross from Africa/Canary Is. straight across to the Caribbean with regularity multiple times a year, the idea that a boat could have been carried over and unable to return (perhaps due to damage or a dead/depleted crew) is not "unlikely" at all.
@@antaine1916 No, no, no. Columbus was in North Honduras in 1503AD along an existing coastal trade route. This was a 4th voyage, very likely he already had some experience in trade with Americans. The head was placed in the burial ground near Mexico City maybe in 1510AD. What is the surprise here?
Picked up out of an old Roman coastal ruin and used as ballast.
Great overview of a very weird artifact. Just curious, has anyone tried to source the clay that the sculpture is made out of?
Thank you! AFAIK, no, no one has tried to source the clay. From what I was able to find it just looks like there were two tests done, with one being a recalibration, to date the thing. Sourcing the clay would probably go a long way in figuring out what this artifact actually is though, that’s a good point
Awesome channels you two
@@TheFallofRome
Imagine how bizarre it would be if the clay is American.
Probably an archaeologist who knows roman pottery could very quickly determine if it's from the Mediterranean world
I love your channel Ancient Americas
There is SO much we don't know. Nothing is absolute when it comes to discovering the "truth" about ancient history.
Fascinating! I’ve always wondered about this. If you ever get the chance you should do a video on the Bay of Jars in Brazil, and the legal dispute that led to underwater exploration being banned in the country
Eurasian Peoples before Columbus and Vespucci who definitely discovered the Americas based on Evidence, Ability, and some Records:
The Scandanavians
Eurasian Peoples before Columbus and Vespucci who almost certainly Discovered the Americas based on Evidence and Ability:
The Polynesians
With the potatoes to prove it.
The notion of a Roman trinket ending up traveling the Silk Road to Tai Pei, then ending moving around Polynesia in the pockets of various traders... then ending up in the Americas, just getting bartered for some potatoes... or maybe given as a gift. "This tiny stone head has been in my family for generations, no clue where we got it."
Also consider the following:
1. Increasing evidence that the Cordilleran Ice Sheet would not have melted in time for a Beringia crossing to be first, so a Pacific coastal migration via some sort of watercraft is starting to look like the stronger theory, followed by a later Beringia land crossing after the Cordilleran Ice Sheet melts.
2. I agree with the position of John Wickersham that it is highly improbable for Japanese ships and their crews to only start being carried from Asia to North America along the powerful Kuroshio Current (against their will), AFTER Europeans were present to document over 23 cases between the 17th-19th centuries, with cases showing errant Japanese ships as far south as Mexico. Logic suggests that it is very likely to have happened before. In light of the pacific coastal migration theory, it is less likely that this coastal migration happened exactly once.
3. Consider Okinawan Warazan, The Hawaiian Tax collector’s referendum knot, Marquesas Too knot records, and Chinese Knot records in relation to Quipu. There are many South American and Pacific knot record traditions and they all seem to be linked. Almost every one of these knot systems were used for ordinal number keeping such as taxation, genealogy, and calendars. I personally believe we owe knot records for the human development of math. After all, what is an abacus (Incan and Old World) but a way make fixed ordinal number knots into movable numerical knots? (Quipu and Witches Knots by Cyrus Lawrence Day is a great resource to read about this subject).
4. Somehow, Turmeric made it to the Americas. There is no satisfying explanation for this right now without some sort of pre-Colombian contact. It possibly could have floated there along with all the other things that could have floated between the old world and the new. (Maybe like the Japanese boats?) I find the “floated there” theory a lazy refutation for single use cases that becomes contradictory and untenable when taken more holistically. Plants you can’t explain? Must have floated across the pacific a long time ago. Japanese artifacts you cannot explain? Must have floated there ONLY from the recent Tsunami in 2011. Could Asian people have floated/sailed to the Pacific Northwest with plants and artifacts? Only once in the ice age, but they stopped once the Cordilleran Ice Sheet melted which made floating impossible, except for plants. However, when the Europeans arrive, they used their observational magic to restart the North Pacific Gyre floatation process and people from Asia could float to the Americas again.
5. One fringe theory for Easter Island Rongorongo writing is its comparison to Sanskrit. I am not 100% convinced on this theory, but I also have not compared both scripts myself. The way I understand it, criticism against it says the similarities are superficial, and it has been discarded by most academia due to the time and geographic separation making a connection unlikely. For now, I accept the academic consensus that it is an independent script without further evidence to suggest a Sanskrit connection, but worth bringing it up in light of the topic.
It’s an outdated model to assume Humans were incapable of sailing vast distances until the Portuguese figured it out. (With “outlier” data of Polynesians/Vikings.) I personally think we are making the same mistake scientists made when conducting the Oil Drop experiment. Discarding large quantities of“outlier” data as improbable or wrong, just because it does not fit the expected model. At a certain point, we need to consider that our model is wrong.
@@DataBeingCollected I say that it is entirely possible for europeans to arrive in america since the bronze age. They had ships, loved to explore and if they got to far west, most crew members would starve to death and the few survivors would arrive at the shore of brazil or some island group like the bahamas.
That is also a good explanation why there was a bronze axe with oxen head found in the amazonas.
The entire "it were the celts" is unreslistic because celts had a different style.
And celtic naval tech was not good enough.
In the middle ages, the north american landmass was well known among sailors of northern europe as a far away land. Expeditions to greenland and labrador and further south to learn of the fate of the vanished greenlanders show that they knew where they were sailing. They just had neither the capabilities nor the interest in great conquest over there.
With Polynesians they've also got DNA evidence. Probably Polynesians reaching the Americas, but maybe Americans reaching Polynesia.
This is fascinating. I had no idea about the science of thermo-luminescence at all, appreciate the insight.
Intriguing possibilities! Thanks for the video.
You’re welcome!
I've read Asterix in America, so I have a pretty fair idea of how this went down. A roman fishing vessel from the Canaries got caught in a storm, and the crew ended up shipwrecked in Latin America. After many adventures, they were all killed and eaten. The captain traded his family heirloom for some bananas and a fish, before the end. It was thereafter traded across mesoamerica, and got buried with a merchant.
But bananas are from Asia.
oh, come on, a nice piece like that is worth at least two fish...
It's entirely plausible for Roman ships to cross the ocean and arrive in the Americas... by accident. Specially if sailing across the coast of Africa. A little south of the equator, the currents will push you towards Brazil.
The problem is returning. The Portuguese were able to start the Age of Discovery by understanding the TURN OF THE SEA, the currents and winds doing circular motions, in inverse directions depending on hemisphere because of coriolis effect.
Meaning that you have to move south or north depending on where you are to be able to take the currents to east or west. A much longer distance may have you travelling faster, by going with the winds and currents, than the straight path.
The Vikings reached Canada by going along the northern frozen coasts... the jumps from Faroe Islands to Iceland was only 433 km. From Iceland to Greenland less than that. If you go along iceland coast, it can also get quite close to Canada.
But at lower latitudes, the Romans could not go to the Americans and back again, without knowing the "Turn of the Sea".
I always thought it was from a ghost ship. It’s the best explanation in my opinion - a ship is abandoned for some reason or another and floats its way across the ocean. Wildly unlikely but not unprecedented.
According to Asterix and Obelix the Cartoon series, they had found it by throwing both of them all the way into Atlantic Ocean... 😏
I found Roman coins in the woods metal detecting. I still have them somewhere. I was able to 90% ID one of them but the others are eroded and very worn. I guess anyone in time after then could have lost or put them there but they been there awhile. This was in North Carolina.
On a similiar note, I remember hearing a serious academic on a podcast claiming a Viking ship got all the way to Mesoamerica.
Just my 2 cents as someone who studies both early-medieval and pre-Columbian art. This head looks really really similar to a number of heads from ceramic/terra cotta figurines from offering caches from the island of Jaina off of the Yucatan. Archaeologists have found lots of figures of old men, often wearing sort of turban-like headgear/hats like this guy from there. If you google search Jaina style you can find images of these. The figures from the site are known for having generally very naturalistic facial features, particularly the figures of elderly people. The Jaina figures are earlier than when this thing was buried by a couple hundred years or more. This dude is from pretty far away from there but ceramic figurines have also come out of the offering caches from the Templo Mayor site in Mexico City and those are pretty close to this thing's time of burial and not that far geographically.
Also, if you were a roman merchant captain, why on earth would you have this guy on board? It wouldn't make a good trade good from a Roman point of view. It would be fragile. Really long distance voyages in antiquity mostly involved the bulk commodity trade. It could be the head of a votive statue but it has no diagnostic features that say, "yep, that's Jupiter/Hercules/etc!" If this thing was Roman and ended up sold to some early-Classic period Maya guy in like 250CE, how does it get to Western Central Mexico to be valued highly enough 1,200 years later to get buried with other grave goods around 1500? If I was some rich Otomi guy in 1500, I'd be pissed if my son buried this old grimy piece of crap with me. It's not even jade!
Could you link one that looks similar to it? So far the ones I have found on the internet look nothing like it and none are bearded.
And as to why somebody would want it in his grave, who knows what it's story was if it were indeed Roman.
I’ve been to the Yucatán. There is absolutely nothing resembling this statue in pre-Colombian art.
My first thought - why nobody consider possible local origin of the head? Simple clay analysys will show is it mediterannean or mesoamerican. It loooks kind of Jaina style variation to me as well. And dating match it.
Ain't no beards in Meso America
@@elliottbaker201 ROFL. One of the most famous Meso-American sculptures that exists, the Olmec "Wrestler" in the Museo Nacional de Antropologia is of a mustached man. The extremely well known wooden Maya mirror bearer sculpture in the Met has a huge Zapata mustache. There is a whole sequence of stelae of the same king in Copan (can't remember the guy's name) where he has a beard that varies in style from statue to statue over his reign. Beards were stereotypically associated with old age and kings usually wanted to be shown as young and virile but sometimes you get an old dude with a beard. There is a Jaina sculpture usually known as "Embracing Couple" that is a statuette of an old man with a goatee creeping on a chick.
I do posts on, and assist history/archeology channels with videos on Mesoamerica: I've actually been doing some reading on Calixtlahuaca lately, and had this video come out in a few months from now, I might have a lot more input: As of now, I'm not deep into it to comment in depth about site chronology or specific details with the excavation in question. But I still have a few paragraphs of stuff to add that's a bit more generalized! Firstly, as somebody who keeps up with the literature with Mesoamerica, attends conferences, etc: the Tecaxic head isn't something that's been brought up EVER that I've seen. So I don't think it's something actual Mesoamericanists really take seriously or see as significant.
Compare that to some other instances of known or potential contact between Mesoamerica and other parts of the world: Direct trade linking Southern Mesoamerica to Oasisamerica in Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, etc is pretty well established, and while direct links between Mesoamerica and cultures further into North America like the Mississippian is largely considered fringe/pseudoarcheology, or at least circumstantial enough to mention informally as a "well this is a neat thing but who knows, we really can't evaluate it", there are things like a piece of Mesoamerican obsidian found in a Mississippian in site Oklahoma which point to at least indirect contact. Trade/contact between West Mexico and Ecuador due to textile, metallurgical, and linguistic evidence (among others) is something that comes up here and there and I think is generally accepted to some extent, but is still a little contentious, but still is mentioned here and there enough to not be particularly obscure. And potential contact between the Maya and Caribbean groups comes up here and there, but the evidence seems pretty limited and seems to be leaning towards "no".
All of those things, regardless of how accepted they are or not, though, are still things that COME UP in either the literature, conferences, or online posts by academics or hobbyists. The Tecaxic head I have NEVER seen mentioned or referenced in those contexts by people who study or are interested in Mesoamerica, I've only seen it brought up, well, by you in this video here, and I think Treythexplainer asked me about it once in a DM, which is where I first heard of it? And that's it. If it was something really potentially compelling, or even just a curiosity that we can't evaluate well but also can't disprove, I think I'd hear about it more then just those two times. Especially because Dr. Michael Smith of ASU is a researcher I follow closely and he's done work at Calixtlahuaca. Maybe i'll come across something as I continue to research the site, but obviously, i'm skeptical.
I'll also add that beards in art doesn't nessacarily mean Eurasian: The Mesoamericans had beards! We know that in Aztec society for example (or at least for the Mexica, "Aztec" can refer to the Nahuas in general, the Mexica subgroup specifically, the "Aztec Empire" as a political network, or a whole bunch of other things... I'm pretty sure what i'm about to say is broadly applicable to Nahua groups in general, if not most Mesoamericans even in other language groups) facial hair was just customarily shaven every day, and the only people who could acceptably wear beards were the elderly or royalty. Elderly gods depicted with beards is also not uncommon, similarly, etc. Realistic sculptures and ceramic figures also are a thing in Mesoamerica: Maya stucco busts or death masks in particular can be incredibly lifelike, on par with Greek, Roman, or Renaissance sculpture... that said, I agree the Tecaxic head doesn't look Mesoamerican.
Also, it is definitely true that objects from foreign or earlier civilizations were collected or excavated and sometimes reburied ritually: The Mexica in Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital, were especially fond of this: They preformed excavations at both Teotihuacan and Tula and brought items back to Tenochtitlan, and also set up new shrines at both archeological sites. Teotihuacan was even worked into their creation myths and Tenochtitlan's urban design and art styles for some murals and ceramics represents a sort of "Teotihuacano revival style". Idols and such from conquered cities were also collected and displayed as part of or near Moctezuma's zoo, sort of like the Roman Pantheon.
Lastly, is there not another possibility, that the head IS roman, but was brought by the Spanish to Cuba or some other part of the West Indies, and then it somehow shipwrecked into Mesoamerica and got reburied? We know that there were various shipwrecks and earlier encounters between the Mesoamericans and Spanish before the 1517, 1518, and then most infamously 1519 expeditions: Gonzalo Guerrero and Gerónimo de Aguilar both shipwrecked (alongside other Spanish sailors, who did not end up surviving or died over the next few years...Guerrero actually because a general for a Maya king and married his daughter, and would end up dying fighting with Maya armies against the Spanish in the 1530s!) in the Yucatan Peninsula in 1511, the latter being recovered by Cortes and acted as one of his translators, for example. There's some indication that Moctezuma II was aware of the Spanish by around that time or maybe a bit earlier (the Aztec did have a large spy network), though I forget the exact line that theory comes from.
This is my immediate thought regarding the head - there's no reason to assume that, if it is Roman at all, that it floated over the sea during the Roman Era. Judging from the dating this could have been the evidence of an unlucky shipwreck off the Iberian peninsula or Canary Islands - or hell even west Africa given the burgeoning cluster of trading civilizations there in the high middle ages - having carried the head as some knickknack picked up from who knows where, in a roughly 800ish year window. Rather than just Romans you're looking at everyone from potential Castillian sailors in the high middle ages to some Italian merchant in the late middle ages having some poor luck.
At the very least the dating confirms the artifact is likely an authentic "something" regardless of its origin, but anyone could have picked up in that literal millennia spanning window before wrecking and floating over the Atlantic.
Will you please make a bunch of big long playlists so I can binge your stuff 24\7?
if a roman voyage ever went to the americas they couldve written of it but then we lose the writing due to the large quantity of roman literature that disappeared because nobody copied the text
dont forget the vikings
There's also this thing that for, say a Roman to discover the America's, it could be a one-way journey. Plenty of planned military campaigns ran afoul of weather when shipping troops and supplies. Would it be possible for a Roman ship to get lost at sea and make its way towards the America's? Would that count as discovery? Not really, because only the discoverers onboard the ship would know and no one back home (relative to the explorers) would know of it. Still fun. Like it that it wasn't a pure April fools video.
Great video 👍
Thanks 👍
Definitely one of your more fascinating videos. I lean towards it being real. It certainly sounds plausible that the trade winds carried a sailing ship until it made landfall on the east coast of Mexico.
The date span, 875 BCE to 1265 CE, is not inconsistent with a Roman origin. The idea that the object is Roman is not particularly "radical." The problem is simply it is isolated (not in a Roman context), and therefore carries far too little information for any readily accepted explanation for individuals that imagine that disbelief and scientific skepticism are the same thing. Thermoluminescence is a very problematic dating method when the specific material origin, and burial conditions are not well known. The phenomenon that makes it useful is that the ceramic is "zeroed" when fired. The fired object then begins to re-accumulate trapped photon energy. Part of that will be from radioactive decay of isotopes within the material, while the greater part derives from radiation from the burial environment. The material the head is made from should be traceable to a source area. If it is European, there is a good chance the isotope profile of the ceramic has been seen before. That information should make it possible to put together a better hypothesis for the origin of the object.
It's perfectly fine to be left wondering! All we really want to do is to make sure we don't believe that which can be proven false, and skeptical enough to keep asking questions. Thanks!
I'm curious, considering the fact the the method used to date the object is heat based, what effect the burning of the site you mentioned would have on the legitimacy of the dating of the artifact.
These doubtful stories always end with someone hiding the evidence, usually in the Smithsonian. 🙄
I've always thought the artifact in question was found in a reputable archeological context and was the head off a household lars. It's evident at least that this object made it to Americas. If Romans or other ancient people made the trip it is reasonable to assume that they did not make it home to tell anyone about it. Now a little more murky and strange, the "possible" roman wreck in Guanabara Bay.
"If Romans or other ancient people made the trip it is reasonable to assume that they did not make it home to tell anyone about it."
Or at least not in such numbers that it became wellknown.
Also, do remember that many of the early trading nations were extremely jealously guarding their maps and knowledge about where they actually went to trade. It wasn't until medieval times that it was easy to find information even just on moving from one port to another in the Mediterranean.
The Iberian nations tried zealously to keep anyone else from finding out their routes(including both to the Americas and across the Pacific), and stolen navigator documents could sometimes be sold for big sums to especially the Dutch or English in the 16th to 18th centuries.
Many people were literally murdered over such charts. And it was only in the 18th century that navigation was becoming truly reliable enough that ships could just set sail roughly in a direction and expect a better than average chance of finding its target instead of ending up sunk or severely off course.
Going straight across the Atlantic is a real tough job. But from Gaul to Britain to the Atlantic islands to Iceland to Greenland to Canada along the coast is easy steps. Never long from land, rich waters to fish in
The ocean isn’t a barrier but highway.
I don't think the vikings would agree with "easy steps" but their ships could do it. Those ships were clinker built though which means they were far more reliable then Roman ships when the weather get's tough. Vikings also had sun stones and sun compasses giving them a huge advantage when navigating. I am not convinced the Romans could have done it.
Such journey do require good navigation, ships that can survive rough weather and experienced sailors, otherwise you are pretty much doomed.
@@loke6664 Roman ships could have followed the same route as Columbus, but why? A week or two with out sight of land wise men would say the ocean is endless and empty.
However, from the bay of bisques to Britain to the Scottish islands to Iceland Greenland and Labrador is handy.
The Vennitee avoiding to Caesar had great ships, where were they going?
Water is a highway
@@jeffreyrobinson3555 When Columbus arrives 90-95% of the natives died due to 12 diseases they lacked any immunity too.
Now, you say, the vikings didn't spread those either but I bet that was because the vikings more or less quarantined themselves on Greenland for years and they had rather limited contact with the Skraelings in any case.
A whole bunch of Romans? Yeah, that would likely have spread a bunch of diseases killing a lot of people, but the reason Spain could conquer the new world was not really more advanced technology or superior tactics, but diseases.
So if a bunch of Romans visited the new world in Roman times, they would have killed off a lot of people, but they would have recovered in a century or 2 and when the conquistadors tried to conquer them, things would likely have ended very differently.
@@loke6664 that’s possible, but one caveat I would think important was the isolation of the Norse. In cr 1000 the Norse were living still on small isolated communities
The plagues that killed so many Indians were spawned in crowded southern communities opened to much trade out of Asia and Africa
And invading no known Vikings community was larger then say a hundred people.
Any group exploring the Atlantic coast or in to the Great Lakes would have been a ship load at the most, and importantly not carring stock, a big reservoir of deadly infections or disease.
I don’t see any reason a Roman ship could have not made it to America, but see them as unlikely, why make the effort?
Romans too in classical time probably had not been exposed to as many of the worse plagues Spanish and west Europe were fifteen centuries later
Norse only came because of an accident
@@jeffreyrobinson3555 Norse didn't really come by an accident though, Greenland was found by a curios explorer.
Yeah, Lief's Saga say the discovery of Newfoundland was an accident which is possibly but we know they were fishing up a lot of driftwood from there and they did trade with the Inuits who knew it was there so they must have at least suspected it was there, it isn't a very long trip.
The Norse in average were not just living in small communities though, we have evidence of trade between Sweden and Baghdad. The Norse were probably the most well traveled people in the world at the time.
But the Greenlanders got between 1-3 ships from Norway and Iceland on a normal year and it is very possible they got none the year they had contact. That and a tiny population means they were likely not spreading anything at the time.
As for the Romans, Marcus Aurelius and 15% of Rome's population died in smallpox in 180 CE, the same disease that likely killed most people in the Americas and that we have signs it happened before as well. Most of the 12 diseases were common in Rome already so I don't think that argument works.
But sure, it is certainly plausible a Roman ship could get lucky. It would get to be really lucky having enough food and water though since Roman ships rarely had enough space for a week, max 10 days. I guess with some cannibalism and rain they could have gotten there, but they also had to be very lucky with the weather because hard winds and large waves were a shipkiller for them.
But it is still very unlikely. A small crew might have also been super lucky and avoided bringing any deadly diseases, but there I think it would be likelier a ghost ship floated over in that case.
It still wouldn't explain why they buried the statue in a grave at least 1000 years later and why it was in so good shape after a thousand years though.
Nah, I think it is likelier a Spanish ship who was wrecked had an educated Captain who had a few classic looking statues in his cabin. I know they were popular from the 1600s to the Victorian era, I am not sure about the 1500s but it seems more probable.
On Columbus fourth Journey he warned people on Hispaniola that a hurricane were coming but they didn't like him (something about cutting arms and hands from people who didn't agree with him including Spanish colonists), they entire fleet was sunk or blown away and never seen again.
We also know one ship wrecked in 1511 in the area, if the latest 1510 date is correct it still isn't impossible it happen before. Or if the date is one year wrong, you would have a very possible connection.
I am not saying that is what happened, but does seem likelier. If we found it in a grave from Roman times it would be different but we aren't sure if this is pre Columbian or not.
And yeah, Testing the clay to see if it is locally sourced could at least take away that the locals made it, that seems unlikely but isn't impossible.
Something I don’t understand with any of these “X discovered the New World first”: why would they not settle the unpopulated Azores, Madeira, and Cape Verde islands first? Why ignore these places and go straight across the ocean? It’s not like the Vikings ignored the unpopulated islands of Iceland and Greenland on their route to Canada.
The Vikings colonized the Azores between 700CE and 850CE.
You have to know that they're there first. The ocean is very big, the islands are relatively very small, and they weren't (at the time) well mapped on accurate charts, if at all. Most such discoveries are made by chance.
The Vikings (specifically, Leif Erikson) weren't deliberately looking for or sailing to Newfoundland - they were blown off course while returning from Norway to Greenland.
A) you never actually come across them
B) there is a serious scholarly theory that the Carthaginians DID colonize the Azores (Corvo)
@@antaine1916 You would expect to find clear signs of Phoenician settlement if they established a colony there. Most of our evidence is of a Roman trade.
Why on earth would you colonize those shit islands at all?
I could easily see a roman ship being blown off course, the crew all dying (or not) and hitting America. Chinese Junks were known to do so, and they had a longer way to go.
The only issue is roman gallies were bad in storms, but a bit of luck could see one through.
How many times did you have to google that to say it???
About ten and I think I still butchered it
@@TheFallofRome⋅ te-KA-shik ⋅ ka-lish-tla-WA-ka.
Eratosthenes' ideas weren't forgotten; they were the secret motivation behind our modern religions' quest to rule the world by gaining the gold and land of the New World (Promised Land).
Thor Heyerdahl crossed the atlantic twice on an ancient egyptian boat made of reed. If you read his books you will not be surprised by a Roman figurine in Mesoamerica. There was probably not a very intense contact cross atlantic in ancient times, but surely once in a while people travelled over.
honestly it does seem like things like that could happen from time to time. I would not be surprised if even the Phoenecians accidentally landed a boat there...making that process repeatable seems to have been the hold up.
the phoencians were intrepid sailors
it takes a very special breed to take to the ocean
even more so in ancient time
i have every confidence the americas were very well known to the informed
spanish said they saw several oriental shipwrecks on the coast.. so yeah plenty have made a one way trip
@@wrongfootmcgee I wouldn't say 'well known' but there's probably more than a few cases of someone sailing off and making the journey but just never coming back to tell about it and being sort of lost to history forever. Possibly even being absorbed into the genetic fabric of the Americas.
"honestly it does seem like things like that could happen from time to time. I would not be surprised if even the Phoenecians accidentally landed a boat there...making that process repeatable seems to have been the hold up."
Indeed. And we do have some minor indications of other African and Mediterranean nations possibly, maybe, probably attempting the occasional voyage westwards. And we do have various uncertain "almost evidence" from the Americas that suggests limited contacts.
Oh, and of course, there's the writings of the Irish monks about how fishermen on Ireland were perfectly aware that there was land in the west, because they could see it sometimes and many were blown off course towards it.
IIRC the earliest of those notes are from 8th century or something. But as it's not considered important, it's only mentioned in passing.
@@wrongfootmcgee "i have every confidence the americas were very well known to the informed"
To the VERY well informed maybe.
Don't forget, it was standard procedure to keep your trading routes SECRET.
Capturing the navigators charts from a competing trading house in ancient times could be a goldmine. And often resulted in assassinations and theft to recover/suppress any knowledge.
Until medieval times, only the most basic and common trade routes could be easily found out about.
And it wasn't until 18th century that charts truly became commonplace rather than each individual navigator's treasure hoard.
"the phoencians were intrepid sailors
it takes a very special breed to take to the ocean
even more so in ancient time"
And we still lack knowledge of many possible explorer civilisations from ancient to medieval times.
There were at least 2 known to have existed somewhere on the west African coast, mentioned in passing to have sent off a "grand fleet" on a trading voyage to uncertain places that could just as well have been in the Americas, the English isles or one of the early empires of south Africa or the Gulf of Guinea. At least one of those mentioned voyages could in fact even have ORIGINATED from somewhere there.
We just don't have the knowledge to say. Beyond that it is a fact that humans have travelled the oceans far FAR more than is recorded.
The Greeks were expert sailors and could have been blown off course and hit Brazil. Same with the Phoenicians, who were said to been the first to circumnavigating Africa, years before the Romans.
Isn’t there a bay in Brazil called “Bay of Jars” because of the ancient Roman Amphorae found there; implying at least one Roman ship sank there?
Oh this is interesting, never heard of this object.
The Romans were interested in what lay beyond the Atlantic. A Roman era ship was found 200 miles off the coast of Ireland.
However, it's more likely this object came to Mexico via Norse, or possibly even Irish Papar, trade with North American natives. This would explain why there were no other Roman artefacts in the burial, particularly ones that would have been useful like gladiuses.
“What happened to the other stuff on the ship?”
Easy explanation. We’re lucky to have the head at all if it is indeed from a Roman ship making landfall that long ago,
With strong evidence of Roman ships off the coast of Brazil, with indigenous South American plants in an Egyptian mummy, so clear evidence of waves of ancient European movement, and plenty of evidence of movment on land and by sea from collective Asia
The total lack of any other Roman artifacts IMO rules out direct contact. The first idea which came to my mind, is that the artifact came to Mexico via trade. We know that Vikings and Polynesians had gone to the Americas, it seems much more likely that either one of these groups brought the artifact and it was passed on through a network of trade. If there was a Roman shipwreck full of loot, one would expect to find more than just a stone head.
this is my favorite subject. quetzlqatl, however you spell it, the white bearded ones, is a legend extant in the area at the time pizarro showed up
Quetzalcoatl isn't ever described in Prehispanic sources as having white skin: That's nonsense that only is said in retellings and accounts published decades or centuries after the fact trying to explain Cortes being seen as a god by Moctezuma II, which ALSO isn't a real thing: Cortes's own letters explicitly say Moctezuma II saw him as human, noting that actually, Moctezuma II was worried that CORTES heard Moctezuma was a god or sorcerer, and to prove he was human, he showed Cortes his bare chest and remarked that he was just as human as Cortes was. As far as being bearded: Yes, Quetzalcoatl is bearded in some depictions, but this isn't unusual: The Mesoamericans had facial hair! it was just customarily shaven every day, and the only people who could acceptably wear beards were the elderly or royalty. Elderly or wise gods depicted with beards is also not uncommon, hence Quetzalcoatl sometimes being bearded.
For more info, look up "Burying the White Gods" and Restall's books "7 myths of the Spanish conquest" and "When Montezuma Met Cortes". DJPeachCobbler's 3 part aztec series on RUclips heavily draws from Restall's books, and I helped with those videos, if videos are easier then reading for you. But I suggest also reading the comments I left on each video which gives extra information: My comments are pinned on part 1 and 3, but only "liked" on the part 2 video, so you may have to scroll down extra for it.
So the dating technique presumably assumes the object was only exposed to high heat (during firing) once. However, you said in the beginning of the video that the site was undisturbed after a fire occurred. So could this fire have left effects on the head that make the date more inaccurate?
Could it have been ballast (removed and replaced with gold ) right ?
I think it might be worth pointing out that the Calixtlahuaca site also has an altar clearly shaped like an Egyptian ankh. I have no knowledge about the dating of said altar, but it could potentially be another indication of some sort of intercontinental influence. There also are many other indicators of Roman-era contact with the Americas, such as grains of American corn found in excavations of Roman warehouses in Spain and the depiction of a pineapple in a painting in Pompeii.
You should have seen the cannon we built out of an 8 ft 6 in diameter pvc pipe with a 12 ft diameter pvc pipe sealed on one end with a quick release valve in between them. Launched projectiles a good 3 football fields and this was a high school class project
We tend to overestimate the difficulty to cross the Atlantic from East to West. The constant tradewinds blow from the Canaries to the Caribbean and even small sailboats can bridge the distance within 3-4 weeks. As far as I know roman ships weren’t very good in sailing against the wind, therefore the probability of them traversing the Atlantic by accident is higher than this never happening. The route back is much more difficult and demanding leading over the North Atlantic via Bermuda. I can easily imagine a roman ship stranded in the Caribbean and this artefact traded with the mainland. The bearded face must seemed otherworldly to the Aztecs, therefore possibly send by the gods, ending up under the pyramid while the metal artefacts were used and lost during the centuries.
My sister found a Roman wra sword and a pike several feet under the ground in West Lynn, Oregon on a construction site where they were remodeling.
It came to the Americas on gallic vessel from a small village somewhere near modern day Bretony
There is quite a bit of evidence of pre-Columbian visits from Scandinavia, medieval England, ancient Phoenicia, and perhaps even Cleopatra's son (who fled Egypt for his life). I'm not surprised if ancient Romans or Greeks may have visited, as well. One can see why these visitors may have wanted to keep their voyages secret.
For some reason the small head reminds me of one of the bog people they dug up in England or was it Ireland? That little cap he's wearing is what made me think of the Bog head that had a rope around its neck.
Not to mention the Chinese sea anchors all up the west coast of both Americas and the Viking Settlements in Eastern Canada.
Aprils fools or no, the idea that Romans made it to the Americas (but presumably couldn't make the return trip to share their discovery) is absolutely plausible.
Based on your extensive experience with antique sailing vessels and/or sailing the high seas?
No, it’s really not.
@@tatata1543 it absolutely is possible... if the vikings could do it the Romans absolutely could have made it...
@@tatata1543 why not? If the vikings could have made it the Romans or Greeks or Phonecians/Cartheginians could have...
@@daveweiss5647 Didn’t happen.
Given the number of ships sailing out of the Mediterranean into the Atlantic, as well as around the UK and Scandinavia, over the centuries, it seems extremely unlikely that some of them were not blown over to the Americas. The Chinese and Japanese knew of the existence of the Americas as did likely the Polynesians. If contact was not made, even accidentally, it would be a very low probability miss.
I have an aztec statue of a lion found at a religious site near Toluca and made from local volcanic ash. I had it verified as authentic by the head archaeologist at my university but he couldn’t explain how a maned lion would be depicted before the arrival of the Spanish
Or course they didn’t accidentally find the americas, the Phoenician’s were here mining copper.
Ok, so the arrows you have that point to the site in Mexico, well at the other end of that arrow runs directly through where I live in Ocala. I found so many rocks that have the finest details like etched but are so small it has been difficult for me to see. There’s writing that is cursive but again so tiny it’s hard for me to get a really good pic and because people on this planet are so jaded when I reached out to the museum they used the word,”provenance”, can’t be verified basically because I’m not an academic nor billionaire collector so she said it serves no research value. I have dug up thousands and had to stop because then I realized my house is at the bottom of a large hump hill (mound) and I don’t want to find remains. There is also rubble of a white manmade stone material. I found a large rock that is painted with a muslin material then painted a burgundy wine color. There’s a pattern on the material and I found an article online that looked so similar and that was from a Phoenician dye factory. So, I’ve just been trying to figure out how in the hell they made these tiny laser like lines to create a detail picture on these rocks. They cut the rock in half and put the scene or writing on the interior of the cut. It’s hard to explain but hopefully someday I will find an,”academic” but if I can find a kickass photographer to capture the detail that’s really what is needed. I’m getting really sick of the academic as the only expert. Why would people still regard any institution as being integral. They’ve lied to everyone. What did they do with the people living in the Islamic mosque homes in Florida? Those robber barons did not build those palaces in two years during back to back wars….Do the Seminoles with their Berber flair and crescent medallions know? Maybe these rocks will tell us who was here because these aren’t chicken scratches from savages this is beautiful cursive but it’s so friggin small and I really can’t say? Trying to compare from script on google the ones I thought maybe: old Persian, old Roman, maybe it’s an Arabic-Spanish maybe Aramaic but I don’t know if Aramaic-Phoenician wrote in cursive. If I can get a clear pic to email “experts”. This is the extent of my social media but seeing how small that tiny carving of the Phoenician man found in Mexico tells me they definitely were here. How else did the Timucan get red hair? That little carved head looks like my Uncle John who has red hair and turquoise blue eyes from Sicily but it looks just like him. I am talking out loud as I research and read as many books I can buy from thrift store on anything about all history so anything written above is only me thinking out loud and not as someone who has credibility. You do a great job on your videos! Thank you
If a shipwreck is involved, why not thinking about a Spanish ship? After all the cultural assemblage where the head was found is dated to the end of XV century, possibly even the very start of the XVI century, when the Spaniard were exploring the Americas. Moreover, no other Roman artifacts were ever found in America before the XV century, suggesting that the case of a Roman shipwreck is less likely that of one of a later European countries.
Maybe, someone aboard a Spanish ship had collected a Roman artifact somewhere in Europe (perhaps after pillaging some Byzantine cities) and kept it as a talisman. A possible candidate shipwreck is Santa Maria, the admiral ship of Columbus. Maybe Columbus himself, being part of those sea marauders and merchants known as Genoese, kept some Roman artifacts in that ship, which were eventually lost to him after the sinking of the ship in Christmas of 1492. Maybe they were found by some of the Taino of San Salvador, and then brought by them to the mainland.
Or, maybe the head was part of the junk goods the Spaniard used to exchange for gold with the Indigenous people of the Americas. If not Colubus, maybe Vespucci did it, or someone else.
Other possibilities come from the known Danish expeditions to find the previous Icelandic colonies on Greenland and Vinland, but those are known to have retrieved no results; still, it is possible that a ship get lost and shipwrecked on the Americas. Again, maybe the head was brought to the Americas by someone of the crew of Thorfinn Karlsefni Thordsonn when he founded the colony in Vinland. Perhaps the head was part of the booty from a Viking raid on the European coast. The problem of this theory is that the age of the Vinland colony is far too early to explain the presence of the head in a XV century tomb. And both theories have the problem that the head should have come from too far north from the site where it has been found.
An additional possibility comes form the recently discovered commerce between Siberia and Alaska during the XV century, which entailed the import of blue glass pearls coming from Venice to America. In principle, it is not impossible that the head would have come to Americas through the same route, although Alaska is too distant from the Yucatan peninsula to make this theory believable.
Top tier April fools
There's old chinese anchors(boat/ship) found in mexico? argentai bay? in the 1960-70's but the problem is these :anchors: were still widely used into the 1700'ss-1800's so these could be from more modern chinese ships, .... that and these anchors are rocks so these rocks could just be naturally formed rocks in the bay. they were widely know but really overlooked by the locals.
2. inuits in small ships dead would make it to iceland which is much farther than youd think because they really didnt live in/on the western side of greenland and their ships would have to not capsize in the extremely routh waters/wealther.
3. we know carthloige made it to pretty far to middle africa where they found chimps/gorillas
I recall hearing years ago that Roman coins had been found in Iceland -
Most likely route is from Britain or Norway to North America. The Vikings made it to North America and were there in 1021 dated exactly from wood found cut with a Viking axe.
The Vikings traded with the indigenous peoples for maybe 400 years. Also the Greeks reportedly made it earlier still by sailing into St Lawrence Bay
in the period around 56AD to mine gold most likely from the Latitude referred to. Also St Lawrence bay was already known by fishing ships which caught fish in abundance there and salted them.
Remember the Northern Route is shorter. Greenland is only 13 miles from Canadian territory at is closest point.
We also know the Celtic Britons had very Sturdy seagoing ships made with thick oak planks and very high freeboard at least as early as 300 BC and had no trouble reaching the artic circle as documented by the Greek explorer Pytheus of Massalia who was taken to the Artic Circle and Baltic in around 325 BC by the Britons. So the Northern route is most likely and a traded item made its way south.
Bah they hoaxed a lot back then, with the free-wheeling antiquities markets I'm surprised someone didn't import an entire mosaic floor and bury it to discover. Why a culture with highly developed ceramics would find this broken cast-off significant enough to bury under a pyramid is the most difficult thing for me to understand.
If we're talking ancient Mediterranean contact with the New World, what's the actual archaeology/research behind the Mystery Hill site in New Hampshire, USA? I've heard claims that it strongly resembles a Phoenician temple, but these sources were... less than reliable, shall we say.
If the proof is "looks like", then it's a grifter speaking.
If we don't know when it got there, despite it being buried in an area dated pre-contact, it could very well have still ended up there after contant. Unless it was buried in a soil layer that was dated at this time.
It would be nice to know what other grave goods were in the burial. The implication that this head circulated above ground for over a thousand years from Roman times until the 16th Century to eventually be buried is hard to swallow. If the head was deemed a prestige good then why wasn't it buried much earlier? If it was found in a 5th century tomb that would make more sense. The object is cheap terra cotta and not very remarkable in appearance. So was the item really cherished and passed down father to son for over a millennium until the last son turned renegade, decided to break tradition and have it buried in his tomb as an elite prestige good? Really?
A derelict ship washing up in the Yucatan 2,000 years ago is a great start to a historical fiction series
Numerous seafarering cultures of the classical world ( Egyptian , Phoenician, Greek, Roman, Irish/Welsh etc) COULD HAVE crossed the Atlantic. On purpose or by chance.
I have no reason to doubt such crossings not only could have happened... but probably did...if only by chance.
Sadly, we will probably never know.
The Romans, specifically those in the North Sea naval fleet, had the ability to island hop their way to the Americas like the Vikings did (bouncing out of Britain to Iceland, Greenland, Newfoundland). IF the Phoenicians had found America first, they would have had their records via their conquest of all the cities the Phoenicians held. I do not know if they made an active voyage and return, but it is possible. Outside of the legends of Atlantis, are there any Roman legends of land to the far west?
Thinking pre- younger dryas. It could be North America was populated by many Europeans - who were then wiped out by the cataclysm.
The best April Fool was in 1977 when the UK Guardian ran a brilliant printing themed 7 page article on an Island country called San Seriffe. The president was called colonel Bodoni I think.
Look it up.
Why would the alleged Roman ship carry terracotta sculptures? Also there is the problem of some 12 centuries between the production date and the time it was buried in Mexico. Much too long for a terracotta artifact. If it was a marble head, it would be more probable that it survived over a 1000 years of being used in Mexico.
I forgot what day it was for a second and panicked that you had become a crack pot
Same here
The romans had Iron Will, with some major navigating mistakes i can see them drifting towards America and being too stubborn to die before they show up on land
There was that guy that proved a wicker boat could travel from Brazil to west africa at tye right time of year. He did it twice.
It might be a joke, but it might be a great movie idea.
What about the chachapoyans whose DNA was recently tested from the paracas area in Peru? The elongated skulls matched one's from the Black sea area, and those peoples descendants also tell of their journey from the modern iran/india area where they landed around the Mexico area and spread south.
The paleolithic Venus from Willendorf was initially thought to be a hoax when it was found in 1908. After various findings of paleolithic Venera, it was clear that it was really a prehistoric object.
something something rubber duckies
It was brought over the ocean by an African swallow.
A bird swallowed it. An albatross. A pelican.
I'd be asking art historians what they think of the carving, its subject, style, and materials.
If this is Roman and it arrived 1800 years ago and was deposited 5-600 years ago, that’s 1000 for it to get separated from other possible artifacts.
I would add another 2 possibilities.....it was vikings loot that someone had on them, we know they traveled far and wide, maybe they traveled to central america and ever further down, i never understood why it's thought they stopped in today's canada when they got to the north american continent. Another possibility is maybe the famed Templar fleet that disappeared from port when King of France arrested all of them ended there, it's believed Templars knew about the new world, and if they knew, maybe they traveled there before the fateful day or after, it's only about 50 years off between the bottom year range and when Templar fleet disappeared.
Yes
Greeks were…..Odysseus was in Caribbean and gulf of Mexico according of nasa…..the stars and travels according of the ancient books. Also there are findings many minoan and mycenean styles etc etc
Hard not to find the americas. Really a wonder to keep her secret until 1492. Nowadays brazil easily reached by sea (currents), from Africa.
It is possible to do a mineral analysis of the clay used to make this figurine and from that, determine if it's clay from central America or from Europe. Also Roman art has been studied for almost 2000 years. There must be someone who can place this object in a Roman art timeline. Those are 2 definitive ways of identifying this object. Why no mention of them?
Well so where did Romans source their araras, ananas, tobacco and cocaine from? I mean so many questions about certain frescos and chemical analysis of euh tissue, bones and excrement.
Theres still glass floats coming from Japan to America after being stuck in the pacific gyre for 80 years, they quit making them in the 60's.
Mangroves in florida let go of 500 year old bottles that still float.
I wonder how many archeological items floated away when all the dams broke in Libya a few years back and if anything (modern or otherwise) made it to Mexico.
If anything travel between the continents would have happened during the ice age when the Atlantic had more islands just like the Pacific Ocean.
If the Portuguese fishing hypothesis holds true that the americas were known, I guess it’s possible that a large ship made it across but I think there would be more evidence
what if the Olmec or their direct predecessors had an ancient Polynesian trading route? what if it came from the opposite end?
It doesnt have to be a ship. Pretty much anything could float across the Atlantic. A ship sinks and it cargo floats around. I do lots of beachcombing on Vancouver Island and find things from China/Japan all the time.
Venham todos pro Brasil precisamos de imigrantes 😊
I'd bet it was a lucky charm or something, carried in a pocket by one of the original archeologists. They dropped it accidentally and by the time it was found, the original owner had died of consumption.
The Vikings already arrived in the north to Alaska. It is also known that the Arabs had visited the American continent. There were maps makes by them. Why do you think Columbus was so sure? Well, because he had a copy that he secretly rescued from an archive in Ibiza (the largest map center in the world at the time) or on a strange quick trip that he made to England.
But the most curious thing is that it is the Mesoamericans who arrived in Africa first, to the islands of Gran Canaria. Remains of transoceanic vessels made by Native Americans have been found.
In 1947, Heyerdahl, following the remains of boats found, replicated one of those rafts to demonstrate that they traveled from the East to America and Polynesia. This is the link to the report KonTiki
ruclips.net/video/BFcW-dCvO2A/видео.html
I never before heard the option of a vessel with the crew died or having abandoned the boat reaching the Americas by current.
This week a ship with dead migrants intended to travel to the Canaries from Africa made it to the coast of Brazil.
Why is the possibility of this having happened before far-fetched?
Why is it so hard to believe that a shipwreck managed to wash up on the shores of South America or the Caribbean islands and made it to the Aztecs through trade.
Pretty sure this is the academic informal consensus
Because it is indeed very hard to believe that a ship with low freeboard, built for mediterranean waves, with a single, primitive sail made it across the atlantic without sinking.
@@yaldabaoth2 Hence the word "shipWRECK' in my post.
@@yaldabaoth2 this argument completely falls apart when you look at the spread of islander polities across the Pacific. Not a single one of them made ships that could compare to those of the Mediterranean, and yet they went farther and left a wider footprint. It's not insane that a ship, lost at sea, finally wrecked on the other side of the Atlantic, which isn't as hard to cross as the Pacific. How the hell else would all those islands be occupied.
@@geordiejones5618 No, it doesn't fall apart. Pacific islander ships were built for, you guessed it, the pacific. They were catamaran type ships designed to stay afloat no matter what unless broken apart. And we don't know how many ships didn't make it btw. Probably a lot. Roman ships were single hull ships, sometimes with multiple decks and built for the mediterranean sea and even there they would rarely venture too far off the coast and fear any storm. If these ships took on water from high waves, they would sink fast. If you think barely being able to sail along coasts is the same as braving the pacific (or atlantic) ocean, you have never been on a ship.
Should look into the roman vessels of the coast of brazil
People who comment without watching the video... For shame 🤐