How to destroy the censorship complex
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
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UnHerd's Freddie Sayers sits down with Michael Shellenberger and Jacob Siegel to discuss the censorship industrial complex.
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What's next for the censorship industrial complex? UnHerd's Freddie Sayers, Tablet's Jacob Siegel and Public's Michael Shellenberger sat down at Dissident Dialogues festival in New York City to discuss the growing disinformation industry and how to combat it.
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// TIMECODES //
00:00 - 00:54 - Introduction
00:54 - 05:30 - Understanding the disinformation movement
05:30 - 11:00 - Increasing public awareness of censorship
11:00 - 15:38 - The power behind the disinformation movement
15:38 - 20:00 - Should there be any disinformation monitors?
20:00 - 23:45 - Maintaining the firewall between domestic vs foreign counter-information operations
23:45 - 29:10 - How do we prevent the free market choosing censorship?
29:10 - 31:08 - Can we shift government incentives away from censorship?
31:08 - 37:40 - The return of former disinformation tsar Nina Jankowicz
37:40 - 38:05 - Concluding thoughts
#UnHerd #MichaelShellenberger #Censorship
Forgive the audio on this episode, we recorded at the very busy New York City ideas festival, Dissident Dialogues. We’ll be back to regular studio programming in the next video!
Zionists. It's not a censorship complex. It's Jewish supremacy at work
I was wondering about that background noise was.
I hope you will soon release the Ayaan Hirsi Ali - Ricard Dawkins discussion soon?
Excellent
Audio was fine, Freddie ...
I follow the subject of the Censorship Industrial Complex religiously. I'm fascinated by the intricacies of the emerging totalitarian system. It's so difficult though to explain to normies what is actually going on because it all sounds too fantastic not to be an Alex Jones level conspiracy theory.
People can't accept how vast it is.
I agree. The general public is naive and finds it difficult to believe their government may have nefarious designs. Europeans seem more susceptible to this than Americans who have collectively been shaped by a Wild West and colonial history that makes them naturally more fierce and rebellious. Freddie’s censorship coming of age is both touching and baffling.
glad im not alone with that
Feel the same , everyone tells me to chill! Plus most people have to much stress or can’t afford to take it on
@@nycgweed im told "Calm down, its not that bad' or 'Why are you so worked up/angry about x' and I just cannot fathom why they are telling me im being wierd for pointing things out. its like two worlds
The question should always be: How small should the government be? Censorship is a symptomatic of the government way too big and out of control trying to preserve itself.
It should be reduced until people protest to increase it WITHOUT MEDIA SUPPORT.
The exact size is easy to establish from the current excessive size.
1: For every new law you have to remove two laws.
2: For every law change the new law must be smaller and simpler.
3: Every new law must be demanded via a citizen initiative before it is even discussed in government.
Every time a government media platform interferes in any way the head receives a jail sentence with no parole, double the length of the previous sentence.
Wow.
We're paying to be lied to.
That has been obvious for many, many years.
@@FraserBailey-jm5yz But had only been acute since 2015/16
Oh you’re paying for much worse than that…
What comes to my mind from your assertion is state funded news media like the BBC, France24, Deutsche Welle (DW), and PBS News and National Public Radio (NPR), and Voice of America (VOA) and Voice of Europe (VOE). This list is not exhaustive. Is this what you had in mind, or are you thinking of NGO's, too?
Before the Internet it was routine to hide the base facts and intentions and provide an accepted narrative to the public. It is no surprise to see these 'truth wars' based on opinion now that information is unchained from Big Media. Now the complexity of perspective means there is no control of a single narrative and the more the attempt to keep it controlled, the more uneasy the masses will become. Not to see any parallels with the Socialist party that got co-opted by power groups that could use the 'good for society' tools to try to control the world. Not at all.
Governments forget themselves. They are merely administrations working FOR The People.
It's not governments behind it though is it? It's jews
Unfortunately they don’t see it that way 😐
"We are the good guys, it sucks but we have to do what we have to do. Break eggs omelette something."
How stupid of the host to constantly imbue this view, which everyone has by the way, into the narrative about secret police, censorship bureaucracy, administrative nanny state.
The Waffen SS, believed that they were cleansing Germany of impurities, sickness as well as those who hold ideas which Germany considers..."Un-German".
The Bolshevik Reds executed the Anarchists who helped them defeat the Whites because they thought that any other movements would ruin a Communist Revolution.
Just because you can come up with defensible rationale for evil acts, doesn't mean they can be acceptable.
Unfortunately there are a whole bunch of freeloaders out there who want the Government want to do it for them as well.
The people - electorship - are a willful, moody, unpredictable boss who politicians naturally feel fearful of - and that fear seems to morph quite quickly within the privileged bubble of politician's group-think into hatred of the actual nations and people's they are supposed to represent. That hatred looks like a globalist conspiracy to destroy the nations but the psychology of fear and hatred, largely unconscious of course, is a large part of it
If there is anything more futile and stupid than zero covid, it’s zero disinfo.
'zero disinfo' = 100% censorship
Actually, Net Zero the most futile and stupid.
I like the idea of putting the names of the central players out there so we can all play a part in tracking these people down. Renee Diresta, Kate Starbird, Ohad Zaidenberg, Sarah Jayne Terp...
Kate Klonick...
Alex Stamos...
Thanks Freddie, you are doing a tremendous job.
Years ago I remember a guest from Stanford on NPR saying it was only a matter of time before "we" will be able to force every company to recycle by coercion.."if you don't recycle , we'll stop your advertisers or supply chain or bank to put you out of business." That expanded to equality and then everything.
Yep, coercion vs education. The idea being that if you know what is best for the people by decree then it is best administered by law or forceful persuasion over educational or progressive measures. Progress does not, to my knowledge, iinfer immediate change like current Progressives may imply.
I don't think State Planned control is much different from Religious conformity. Those who would want the 10 Commandments in every classroom have similar, if not the same, social impulses as those who are currently wanting rainbow flags in them. And in both instances, it's the road to Hell being paved with good intentions.
@@JH-ji6cjthe 10 commandments make more sense and apply to all of life. Leave out the religion, which you have a bias against, and they just make sense.
@sanniepstein4835 the irony is....wait for it...that the rules supposedly set by a _higher power_ , are 'rules that just make sense'. A higher order being needed to supposedly be evoked for people to "follow logical rules" is what blows my mind, including why you can't seem to reflect on why that's a problem. You must not also know how magic tricks, or tricks in general, work. Small hint, it's the manipulated truths always used to distort and lead the victims to the preferred outcomes.
@@JH-ji6cjThe rules that cause misery, death and oppression are all self-consciously man-made. In modern times the Jacobins, Communists, Fascists and Nazis invoked their own intellects as the source for their laws. They all rejected God. The fact that your own intellect is too meagre to conceive of God does not not make Him not exist.
@@robertseavor4304 prove 'Him' you twat.
Excellent discussion, Shellenberger is becoming as must watch for me as Douglas Murray. Every time I see a new interview with them, I always watch
"Fact checking" was originally just "editing" for "facts" like stats, dates etc
Yeah, to be honest it should be relabelled to "Narrative aligning".
1st check their Logos. know them by their signs and symbols.
They don't hide their affiliations they rely on our ignorance and our desire to live in a good world.
Yes. The problem is that people don't bother to look at what they're saying, but anyone who does, comes out horrified on the other end.
I was, at any rate.
The bureaucrats' fear is palpable, we are many and strong and awakening. Freddie has not gotten it yet. To me, he represents the average public incredulity of the depth of the corruption.
Indeed, the interview hardly scratched the surface of what has happened and has happened, and likely in my view, what will happen, which, is far worse still. Until, it will be too late.
Interestingly, I’ve replied to a couple of comments and my replies have disappeared.
My comments were polite, constructive and pointing out how the Independent candidate for the Presidency has successfully sued social media and the current administration for censoring him. Any American concerned about censorship should vote Independent in November.
NB I’ve remained vague so my comment posts
the target isn't just the point that you want to make.
it is the whole process among citizens that communicate, and by this produce their own creative opinions.
"communication is the interactive computation of /a/ reality."
(key sentence of constructivism)
If you are voting single issue, perhaps. But the independent candidate has some controversial left wing political opinions.
...in fact, I've had comments 'disappeared' that were completely anodyne and not political at all... so, one wonders. Also, people on threads void of political anything, and their comments were also 'disappeared' ... they then commented on the absurdity of it. Just fyi...
@@andreaandrea6716 This has happened to myself a great many times on this platform. Polite, perfectly fine posts which have been political, are hidden. That's just the tip of a very big iceberg. I can't, am not permitted to say more than that.
@@magingi Oh! So... the platforms are targeted, rather than the person commenting...?
I had a lot of this happen to me during the pandemic (when one was only allowed one way of thinking/communicating).
To paraphrase: Totalitarianism doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes 🙂
Great discussion
Jacob is incredibly insightful. Looking forward to his book
Important & powerful discussion...thank you all ! !
As Alan Watts used to say, "Who watches the watchers?"
Thank you very much. I appreciated a lot this talk.Love from Croatia💕
I love how Jacob clearly cited 2 big issues 1.) The core of the beast is the defense beurocracy of the West 2.) The beast dissolved the line between foreign and national information suppression ( we fought wars to secure rights that don't exist elsewhere)
I would argue that there should be no distinction between foreign and national. That is, foreign “disinformation” and domestic “disinformation” should both be countered by information, not censorship.
Once you create a power base, you add true believers, then add people willing to profit personally (who then convince themselves they're doing good)...thats a big group... During Covid, a few were corrupt, some believed them, but many just saw a chance to get safety and promotion
It seems that the whole idea of freedom of speech and a free press are nothing more than a feel good story we tell ourselves.
In the UK we don't have freedom of speech protections, and our biggest broadcaster is state controlled (BBC was government funded with £3.8b last year and the Chairman is appointed by the King based on the reccommendation of the home office).
In France the cencorship is as fierce as in Russia and even Newspapers like Le Mond are partly state owned.
Canada spends about $1.2 billion a year on the CBC, in addition to ad revenue (which, to be fair, is in decline along with its shrinking audience). The head of the CBC lives in New York City and is among the highest paid Canadian civil servants.
Canada also subsidizes legacy media, cloaking it as helping them adapt to the internet.
In other words, the Canadians that still rely on mainstream news and opinion are getting Pravda style narrative control that would make Stalin blush.
Yep, the UK is bad but from what I've seen Germany is also even worse. Media just parrots the government / EU line and dissent is treated with extreme hostility, to the point of being considered an enemy of the state if you say certain things.
It's just as bad if not worse in NZ.
FIrst time I've heard from Jacob. Excellent guest.
I did not care for him at all. I find it bizarre that he thinks NATO is a sinister force for censoring us. He speaks very rapidly and makes funny faces. I would've much rather listened to Michael (and Freddy, although he was far from his best here) the whole time.
No way! I was wondering when Shellenberger and Siegel would be in the same room. Awesome! If only Mike Benz could also be there...
So interesting that Freddy (probably accurately described as sloppy centrist) has stumbled onto a key finding of one of our biggest problems - like watching Mr Bean or Inspector Cluesue helping bring down a mafia boss..well done...you are describing things as you said people like Musk themselves don't fully understand at this time..we are putting puzzle pieces together
this one was really food for thought.
preventing us to know about the motivations and abilities of the projected arch enemy, censored by the same people that are preaching this enmity as our holy duty against eh universal evil, this is kind of a very dumb and medieval short circuit.
@@neovxr "...very dumb and medieval short circuit" is the phrase of the whole comment board. Well said.
As usual an excellent discussion from Unherd
Intentionally hindering the public square is a high crime against humanity because humans are questioners and a free and transparent public square is our most fundamental home. Future legislators must make it a crime.
Hindering the public square is anti-democratic to be sure.
Michael talks such sense so glad for your podcast pls keep this nefarious issue in the spotlight light
Well done 👍🏼
RFK JR!!! 2024!!! Our hope!!!❤Let's make it happen!🦅🇺🇸🦅
Exactly!
He’s a traditional Democrat, so no.
@@sherbear8286😂
@@sherbear8286 well so was Trump until 2014/2015 and he decided to run for the Presidency. He was so involved with the Democrats he was invited to Chelsea Clinton’s wedding.
If RFK Jr was such a traditional Democratic why would so many Democrats be speaking out against him.
@@sookibeulah9331 Because they’re no longer Democrats. They’re far left ideologues who disrespect our constitution and laws.
Great conversation! Very illuminating 🙏
Thanks gents!
Thank you all! ❤
Thanks Freddie
3 legends. Thank you gentlemen.
Fabulous, as always. Thank you so much, Freddie Sayers and guests!
You have an independant candidate saying he will tackle censorship. Why is he never mentioned in these conversations.
Who is this candidate ? RFK Jr seems too beholden
@@r_ds8057RFK Jr has already successfully sued the Biden administration for getting social media to censor him. One of his super-pacs is about to sue Meta blocking and shadow banning a 30 min film they put out about RFK Jr titled: Who Is Bobby Kennedy
@@r_ds8057 to whom?
We the people?
Maybe because he stands no chance of winning?
Thank you gentlemen . Amazing conversation 🙏❤️
Great convo! Thanks.
Very good. Freddie. I enjoyed watching and learned a lot as well. T
Y.
Bravo!!!
Looking forward to listening
Thank you x
Dumb people with good intentions are just as harmful as smart people with nefarious intentions. Perhaps worse, as you cannot fix dumb.
Well, this is quite the dream team!
Brilliant show Freddy.
Great discussion. Many thanks.
Our government is clearly not representing and serving its people with this so we must not participate in the general election due shortly so it will not be able to claim it has any mandate from the people! Brent Collins.
I'm voting Trump because they hate him so much.
I find it very useful to see what message that a foreign government is actually pushing so I can recognize it when somebody else is repackaging it, it makes it real easy to identify their motives.
The problem is that their are algorithms silently parsing and hiding comments all over the internet. Check your posts/comments using private/incognito browsers while anonymous or logged in to a burner account. I doubt this message will make it through though.
'It' did make it through, but what you speak of is too true and has happened numerous times to myself.
Mindful of Duke Ellington, kudos to the “Antidisinformationarianismists”. Keep up the great work Freddy.
Thanks
Keep up the good work exposing the GDI
I also remember people like Thomas Friedman saying that democracy will end the world.. people will never agree to change fast enough..we have to be more like China..since then, I've heard other intellectuals make very solid claims that democracies are actually very good at doing things like fixing environment problems and population issues..but we are in a totalitarian moment where many young people have been educated against democracy..many if you talk with them honestly don't get the value of freedom or free speech... they're trained to trust gov
Its unbelievable how passionate kids today are about censorship. The propaganda is strong.
Gentlemen, please keep fighting the good fight!
It's understandable that advertisers may want to hire consultants to tell them where the Overton Window is, and how to avoid controversy. But if those consultants are giving them dishonest and politically biased advice, the advertisers should want to take their business elsewhere.
Censorship online goes back much further than this interview suggests. Entire databases and forums...went missing. They're still all there, just not for the public.
Too often now, AI does the ground work. Of course, I can't say much otherwise this may go the same way too. Even now, it may not be seen.
Thank you, for bringing into our attention the many nuances of censorship. Unless we are Sherlock Holmes, we definitely miss them.
Oh dear, another comment I made and left here yesterday that definitely did not breach RUclips's published guidelines as very many other comments and replies made and left by me on RUclips has, 'strangely', disappeared since yesterday! Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! Looks like someone must have thought I had something relevant to say with the relevance of what I did actually say obviously now being very much underlined by this occurrence! Regards, Brent Collins.(Update: just after posting this the comment I referred to above that I had searched for to be sure it was definitely missing has miraculously reappeared just after posting this but absolutely, definitely was missing hence the sarcasm in this comment! I can only think that perhaps RUclips have a suspense account system whereby anything that is not liked can be hidden then resurrected if anyone voices contention, I do not know but a very interesting occurrence! I think it would be a good idea to take screenshots of all comments and replies posted to provide evidence concerning what is going on concerning the visibility or lack of concerning comments and replies on YT! Brent Collins.)
Yes, there are a great many ways that this system is being gamed. Comments may only appear long after they have been made to ensure they are buried.
maybe not on purpose, but Michael (noticing effect) and Jacob (noticing cause) are great partners in this area - kudos
Why hasn't Unherd initiated legal proceedings for lost earnings - either directly against 'advertising' agency or GDI?
Excellent
Government is to govern the services to the people, it is not formed to govern the people, that would be idiotic.
When a business or corporation receives contracts from government, it is no longer a part of a free market. It is compromised and that is why the "terror of political incorrectness" exists. The growth of government always implies the shrinking of the free market. Which companies should be awarded contracts is always a political decision, steeped in the competition for power.
That analysis (around 14:00) of the technocratic class power motives - excellent.
Compelling, incisive discussion. "Liked," of course, and saved to one of my playlists, and shared. In the US we might garner some benefit from the Supreme Court's impending decision that might constrain the executive branch from censoring speech on the Internet. Two Americans might have talked a little more about that in this discussion. Shellenberger mentioned, too, politicians might make policy of the constraints proposed by federal courts, two of them so far.
In Australia we are battling this right now with our very oen eKaren..
I have problem to share your wonderful conversation on FB ✌️
(12:21) You simply take her out to lunch, Freddy, and EXPLAIN IT TO HER! You are in the unique position of being someone who actually CAN, or COULD.
There is only one way to stop censorship online is the peer-to-peer fully anonymous decentralized internet. It doesn't really exist yet.
That said governments should still be able to punish speech. The role is punishment, not prevention.
The beast considers itself to be the farmer and us to be the varmints. The farmer has all the tools and the traps to catch whoever he will. I like being free and not penned up by the farmer. But really, it’s like we’re a convention of mice passing a resolution to start getting tough on the cat. It’s a theme I saw watching cartoons when I was a child.
Well said superman!
The guys that did the "soundproofing" should be canceled. Other than that, great show! 😁
Welcome aboard, m8
Jacob Siegel and Mike Benz are the twin blades of the spear exposing the framework of the beast….IMVHO
One counterpoint, US and UK people are far too familiar with totalizing systems, like fish in water. 5:20 Jake Siegel.
12:09 Neil shows himself to be such a decent, above board human being here. This is someone’s opinion I appreciate.
Freddy you've missed/forgotten something big. You said that 'she means well'... She is manufactured consent.
What Jacob Siegel rings true. The company(now dismantled?) is downstream of something greater. The lady in charge of the company could have good intentions. Everyone makes mistakes but the whole thing about this is 'good intentions'. What is the definition of good intentions and could good intentions lead to something bad further down the line? Thanks. X
“Defund the thought police”
I’d buy that T-shirt.
"Defund the Thought-Police" I like that....
Chomsky wrote about this subject several decades ago.
Except the censoring authority has exceeded the original remit - because demonstrations world wide were too numerous ten? years ago perhaps.
Chomsky was railing against the neo-con media promoting the intrests of military industrial complex, and big business, but now that the left is supposedly in power Chomsky doesnt have a problem with censorship and tyranny as long as its ”his side” in power.
And he conspicuously silent on all of this. And also pilloried those who had the audacity to question Covid policies, esp vaccine 'hesitancy'. NC is an important voice re: critical thinking skills and speaking out against power structures, etc....but he's just flat out ideological on some stufg
Principally censorship is to maintain order in a structured society; but like everything else, it can be abused. Imagine there is no censorship in sex and violence for children at a tender age?
This is encouraging but its seems free speech is quarantined to X, Substack, Rumble, and the fringes of RUclips...Theyve been trying to kill advertisers and platforms..only private supporters remain..Im disabled so its hard to gauge how much cash people have to support information.. hopefully a lot..they buy cable tv and streaming so hopefully that will prevail
There is no free speech here.
❤
good point made initially in this video that there are obvious escapes to the censorship complex like the Streisand effect. An other defense is education
of the public, knowing the mechanisms which are used to funnel narratives or feed propaganda.
Thomas Picketty had momentum at one time. Last time you heard about him?
What makes you think they won't shut down the internet to the average person? 🧐
I have a suspicion that it will stop working properly and people will be corralled to use a proprietary satellite based network that comes bundled with a social media platform and a banking app with links to a compromised messaging app.
Better later than never, Freddie. Welcome to this strange, new, old world.
Dickens is such a Dawk.
Was always the objective since Marx, Lenin, Gransci, Marcuse, Crenshaw - then Obama, WEF, CCP, and others.
When Russia fell, you couldn't reduce Nato any more than you close a military base bc legislators fight for the jobs...so Nato has grown and expanded globally and now bigger than most of its member states..
Bigger how?? Larger budget? Larger staff/population?? More influence??? NATO has 32 nation's in Europe and North America and you say it expanded "globally"??
Did anyone else get unsubscribed from Unherd?
I’m tired of hearing what is going on. What about how we work a peaceful way out of it - so we can then live a harmonious life that benefits each person, the planet, while keeping human body and mind intact. We were almost there - but now heading into Soviet style dystopia.
We're already there, I keep getting my own comments and replies that do not breach guidelines hidden or deleted! Regards, Brent Collins.
I don't believe we were ever 'almost there'. All that's happened is that social media has blown the lid off everything to show the extent of the activities. Or at least the extent of their aspirations - the extent of their activities would probably blow our minds!
If you’re American look into, and vote for, RFK Jr. He’s already successfully sued the Biden administration for getting social media platforms to censor him.
Well there are a lot of people on the streets right now saying NO to the narrative. One false move by the machine and it could become a spring tide that lifts all ships.
Is it still considered censorship when a non-governmental organization is doing the censoring or protecting the narrative with disinformation? Isn't the police power of government the thing that defines censorship? (I consider taxation and regulation to be natural extensions of those police powers.)
It is when the government directs organizations to do what they are not permitted to do.
Censorship is stopping or limiting others from speaking, it can be government or not.
@@jdg9999 How can a non-government organization stop or limit others from speaking?
Anyone else hear the echo / reverb in the background on this. I thought I was going mad. Sound like there is a carnival in the background
Explained at the beginning and even reiterated with the Channel comment. Yes, it's irritating, but they do go out of their way in the video and in the comments to explain why.
_Edited to not be so accusatory._
@@JH-ji6cj oh no problem thank you. When I commented on my phone, I didn’t see any other comments before I put mine on. still a good episode ,very interesting guests.
20:05 This is a common misconception. The First Amendment protects every person within the jurisdiction of the United States. There is no distinction between citizens and noncitizens with respect to freedom of speech. Foreign agents have a registration requirement. But they can say what they want on the same basis as any American citizen.
this eastern european special operation that is half private interest & messianic ambition and half imperialistic/neocolonial motivation (to fund the ideologic part) has stirred things up wildly enough for half a million and counting, and still they are so proud of it and doubling down, even when a leading icon had to resign.
that's around 33:30
It sounds like someone is being mur'd outside the "sound proof" studio they provided you. Has anyone checked on them?
Welcome to edge of the matrix Freddy. You're not late, because as you see, certain things need to happen before we can face it.