Dutch identified with the Natives (later leading a new gang composed almost entirely of them) because from his perspective they were the same, “free thinking freedom loving, fair minded folk sticking it to the man. Only they fought to literally preserve their culture and existence, I think Dutch hated the modern world because a man like him had no influence on it. He loved power and control and whilst in the gang he was King, but he felt rejected by the outside world.
There's no doubt Dutch loved power, but he definitely had real qualms with modernization. The concrete and cobblestone, the lack of greenery, the smoke and smog of factories and mechanization, the population density. He hated Saint Denis, the city most emblematic of the new age.
Yeah but the flaw in his ideology of recruiting natives is that you had people like Charles and rains fall who sought peace and negotiation of cultures while Dutch recruited murderers and thieves. Every man has a destiny and makes his choices and Dutch chose the wrong sort of folks to live with.
In a sense this is true , but there is certainly an element to it that Dutch knew he could manipulate their sense of loss to his gain. It’s present in both games; he plays on their hopefulness that they could reclaim some of what they lost if they just kept fighting for Dutch’s cause. He utilized that hope in order to trick them into fighting for something Dutch knew would never happen. It’s sad that as he delved deeper and deeper into madness, he cared less and less about using the people that thought he cared about them
Yeah bill got done so dirty by everyone in camp always being insulted/brushed off as an idiot idk why he was so loyal to a man who had no respect for him
I honestly wonder if witing that in for bill was a subtle holes reference 😂 mr sir's name actually being marion bein called out in a similar fashion. Either way just a thought.
If you remember and played rdr1 you’ll know Dutch pretty much turned into Colm with the natives didn’t really give a rats ass about them he just cared about his needs and wants most.
Honestly, Bill went through a lot of trauma when he was fighting, so I understand his fear turning into anger towards a certain group, even if i don’t agree. He saw his friends get scalped and killed. And I understand Dutch’s point because being racist is fucking STUPID. Bill just needed some modern day therapy. Most of the Van Der Linde gang did.
@@christianguerrero1305the colonists were the ones that placed five dollar scalp bounties on Native Americans. They normally had long/decorative hair so you could distinguish them apart from other people and it was one of the highest paying jobs in the country
“I don’t doubt you saw things… What you saw, was people who lost everything TO savagery” As a Native myself, I’ve always praised this game for its honest and authentic portrayal of the Indian condition, which is far worse today than it ever has been for most of us. We need all the awareness we can get.
I think Dutch was actually upset by this comment because he felt as if Bill was calling him a savage. By the time of RDR1; Dutch is living with what is essentially a band of raiders who are only intent on destruction for the sake of revenge, similarly, Dutch doesn’t seem to have any real plans by the end of RDR2 that aren’t focused around destruction and revenge. He also doesn’t care about the Natives as we see when dealing with Wapiti.
In chapter two, if you listen in on one of the conversations between Dutch and Lenny, there's a hint at this with the former opposing Lenny's POV about Miller.
@@nam6282Evelyn Miller. The progressive author that Dutch looks up to and reads the work of. He introduced Arthur to Rains Fall and Eagle Flies. There's a side mission with him in the epilog too
and in the end, lenny was right about evelyn miller. he was just a rich man acting like he knew the common folk, which was a thing authors did during the 19th century (dickens is a good example of this) dutch doesn't have a response to what lenny says and just acts like he's wrong
I mean honestly not the most unrealistic thing in the world, though it was the era of eugenics. Even progressives at the time generally supported a form of eugenics. Granted progressive eugenicists probably would have seen people like Dutch as criminally undesirable and sought to end his bloodline so there's that as a reason for him to reject eugenics.
@@tapioca8574 eugenics was def popular then from a racist perspective. But Dutch and Hosea’s progressive views seem to be considerably more woke than expected imo.
@@Arturo_Kilgore_Morgan There have always been people who were more radically progressively minded than the average person. There were American abolitionists in the 1700s, for example, well before any true movement formed.
Bro Bill yelled in Camp at Lenny the other day and called him Boy and Dutch went in on Bill for like 5 minutes about not being a racist piece of shit... You can say a lot about Dutch but he was not a racist.
Sure he might have murdered innocent people and left countless more traumatized and broken...but at least he never says mean things about people who are different. Solid reasoning!
In all fairness to Bill... depending on which Indians he was fighting in which wars, yes, on occasion, certain American tribes I would describe as at least as savage as the American soldiers. We all know the Army murdered the American Indians, but do you know how many Civilian settler families were murdered by rebelling Natives?... it wasn't a small number.
Imagine that Europeans come to your country and take EVERYTHING from you, every piece of land, every piece of land where you can plow, sow and raise cattle. they forcefully change your current life through the barrel of a gun. there is now a campaign against the Russians for waging war on Ukraine, it's a shame these crimes have been conveniently forgotten. what the Europeans did was incomparably worse. These people's lives were brutally taken away, no one had the right to do so, they were placed in reserves like animals. I am Polish and I know how occupation and attempts to destroy culture and country affect people, in Poland there was a guerrilla war, just like the Indians, for them every white person was evil, just like for my grandparents every German and Russian.
@@dilloncrowe1018 alot of the time American soldiers promoted them to retaliate and used it to justify their own crimes. At that point America had kidnapped their women and children, stolen their land, supplies and medicines from them in hopes of their elders dying off. It's unfair to compare the brutalities of an oppressive invader to that of a desperate culture fighting to survive
@@BiIIyTheKid 2 things can be true. No doubt it was probably some natives who weren’t good people but your European ancestors were just as, if not, more savage than the natives with all the killing, lying, and stealing they did. lol
@@throckmortonsmith no he did not. amerindians would skin people and eat them in front of their friends, they'd kill all children, they'd r*pe and burn ppl alive ... Arthur is a well behaved kid, even on low honour, compared to that. then again Dutch's point here is interesting but wrong, they did that before white men came
I can understand Bill's perspective, though. His experiences gave him intense fear of the group's warfare. I mean, there are accounts of Custer's Last Stand ending with the Native warriors outrunning the cavalry division's horses. And the slaughter completely ended with the scalping, looting and desecration of the soldiers' corpses. Between an enemy who had been pushed around for far too long and thus had finally started fighting back as ruthlessly as they could and extremely stupid and glory-hungry leadership, a lot of men died needlessly under the Union Army, both in and around the Civil War. Because of the military's unnecessary expansion campaigns against Native Nations, and the Native peoples' growing desperation and responsive brutality, I have no doubt that that was how many of these soldiers in the Union perceived the Natives. Also, I call B.S. on Dutch more or less saying that none of the Natives were savages. A good portion of the Skinners were of Native descent and that entire gang was the definition of savage.
Dutch is saying they are a product of the conquerors that drove them to near extinction. To call them savage is to excuse the conquerors that put them in the position they were in. The only difference between them and the Spaniards, French, and British that conquered them was technology. We don't know how those nations would react to being conquered and driven to near extinction, because they weren't. We can however see examples of other cultures undergoing the same conditions of the Native Americans. The Native peoples of Australia. The Irish. The Germanic peoples during the time of the Romans. etc. If you corner a rat it's going to bite and claw. People are the same way. Cut away our civilization and we become animals.
@@NicholasWood-y4kthis. “But the natives were savages and ruthless” yeah no shit. They were continuously lied to, manipulated, and bent over backwards by trying to engage in peace talks. They had everything taken from them, ruthlessly, and when they turned around to fight back for their peoples the government used it to paint a picture of them as uncontrollable beasts. In 2024, knowing everything we factually know about Native Americans and the process of forcibly clearing them off their own land, I’m not sure how you could ever reasonably call them “savages”
@@NicholasWood-y4kBut that’s just not true. The Natives were practicing things like human sacrifice and all manner of savagery long before the Europeans arrived. The idea Dutch is presenting, that they were just peaceful, pipe smoking civilians before the Europeans turned them into savages, is pseudo-history.
@@theguybehindyou4762 they systematically exterminated their own peoples before the whites showed up? Now this I never knew, appreciate you shedding light on this historical fact
Dutch was only half right about the Indians. Too bad the way he thought of Bill was the same as he thought about the Indians. He chose to be a bandit and tried becoming a warlord with a bunch of Braves who sold their souls for some snake oil by The Silver Tongue Devil himself.
Some of the tribes were brutal, others were more peaceful. My family fought to defend themselves, but weren't the type to sticks heads on pikes or scalp people. At the end of the day, the English were against the savage practices in the neighboring nations. Thats partly why they sought to conquer and civilize Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. That training and colonization from Rome really did a number on them. There's no doubt that the American Indians had savage practices. All peoples do. On top of that, the tribes had different practices and some were very hostile while others were open. Thats what Bill didn't understand. What he witnessed was real, but it wasn't the whole picture. It never is no matter how big and detailed you make it. We are all ignorant of most things.
Does it? Is he not the one who used an Indian tribe as bait so he could make his “escape”. Dutch can preach all he wants but actions speak louder than words. He’s doesn’t care about the natives at all despite all his talk.
And why not give bill a chance to explain himself if bill was in a war against them then i don't doubt he realistically did see some savage shit right or wrong. But dutch instead just belittles him instead of listening like any good leader does.
Makes a lot of sense. Dutch read a lot and his idealized lifestyle could be compared to the lifestyle of Indian tribes. A sense of kinship considering the US government wants to take that from both of them.
Both made good points during the argument. Bill was there and said it was brutal, Dutch wasn’t there and said it was wrong. Of course I agree with Dutch more.
He says that now, but in one chapter or two, he just uses the indian to get money, even if it mean they loose everything and start a fight they can't win. What he tought and what he did are two different things. Theory and in practice
Depending on what tribe he fought, Bills perspective can be absolutely justified. Not all indian tribes were as peaceful as the Wapiti, and even they were honirable when they went to war.
You see the crazy thing is Native Americans were very savage, especially Apache. South America was too so Bill ain't wrong. Dutch just got a liberal behind the scenes there
Dutch is taking threads of anarchism (a real political movement in 1899) and the Noble Savage trope, also present in the late 19th century. To him, the native Americans were leading the true free life that men were meant to live, before corrupt government disrupted it with violence and law.
Well dutch is an excellent shot with his revolver. He taught Arthur and John afterall. Plus that time he shot John's binoculars one handed with a cattleman revolver. Its shown and implied that dutch had been in pretty much the same situations as the US army would engage in at that time. The only difference being he was in a gang and had far fewer numbers as well as little to no command structure which historically is harder for soldiers to fight against than an organized opposing army.
@@americancrusader7554 yo man a simple thug like Dutch would never beat a war veteran,this is like seeing Charles Mason beating Navy seals,but that just me being realistic, don't worry about that bro
@@João-t5k7lhe's spent his entire life fighting and running, he probably has more combat experience than a lot of soldier, in a 1v1 he could probably cone out on top.
No. This dialogue actually shows & supports what everything Dutch was even before Blackwater. Bill was in the US army. You know the entire mission of Eagle Flies was going into war vs the US army. Even Dutch being an evil character behind the curtains, he knows the US army are the real savages that wanted to manipulate & provoke indian tribes into criminals. Just so that the US army can create a fake justification into slaughtering the Early Indian American Tribes. Dutch was a bad character, but this scene proved how much he had a sense of morality & equality. And how he had a fair sense of justice not until Hosea died & completely abandoning everything he held for. You can hear on Horseshoe Overlook Chapter 2: John & Hosea saying they used to give away the money they steal to the poor because Dutch feels the system government only support the rich & kill the natives. Which made sense BECAUSE the gang was rich enough before the Blackwater Ferry Job. They stopped being generous since they became poor while being chased by Pinkertons into the snowy mountains. This is why Hosea & Dutch kept arguing in Chapter 1. Dutch wanted to be a criminal to get even with Blackwater debt. Hosea still wanted to continue being the generous people that they've been.
All these scenes always felt so out of place when you play the game... Sloppy work... Like sometimes its Arthur who's the thoughtful one, then its dutch and Arthurs the dumb one, then its this, then its that... It felt like a story ment for a show, cut down into a movie... Sloppy mess
Obviously, y'all dont read history. The natives brutalized each other LONG before any of us showed up. Whole tribes we will never know about because they were wiped out by other tribes, For their land. So the idea that natives were all holding hands singing Kumbaya when we showed up is pure ignorance. We came as Conquerors! And we did what we did. It is the history of the world! And not exclusive to the U.S.
Did you watch the video? That was his whole point. The stupidity of trying to, as it was at the time, make it seem like savagery was exclusive to the Natives’ when by every possible metric and statistic, the Europeans were significantly worse.
@@JacobWooster-zo8yw what the video showed was dutch saying we were the savages. The natives here were savage to each other before we got here. There was atrocities on both sides. We came here and conquered this nation, like many did before us in many places. But to act like the natives were all peaceful and friendly to each other is pure fantasy!
@@221WTF Where did he say that they were all peaceful and friendly lol? And did you even read my comment lmao? All you’re saying is proving my point. The Natives’ were already savage to eachother just as much as the Europeans were savage to eachother before they came here to reap another awful savagery on the Natives’. Except at least there was a modicum of dignity with the Natives’ unlike the Europeans just coming here and raping the land for all it’s worth. Shown by the whole point of the games villains and their representations of different Modern-Day evils.
I don’t see Dutch a villain I see him as a complex traumatic character that on top of the law chasing them and rival gangs and him slowly turning into the person he said he never was he is a broken person and yes Micah manipulated him because that’s another reason he listens too him because Deep down he was never going too get the gang safe and actually them escape and live peacefully that was all a delusion and fantasy
You know unpopular opinion but most the time tbh I feel bad for bill yea he may be a dumbass but he’s not completely stupid he dose come up with some decent ideas and he isn’t lying when he fucks up he always gets shit on but if somone else dose it’s just one of those things. I feel like bill yea may be ignorant to sum things and yea he is a dumbass sometimes but look at the valentine job and he is a decent shot and fighter 🤷♂️
![Mafia: Definitive Edition / Chapter #18 / Just for Relaxation [Classic, 1080p, 60fps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D9zBkn_1ho0/mqdefault.jpg)
Arthur’s one liners are forever goated 🤣🤣
Yup
Tremendous!
True 😂
You owe me money boah
He could single handedly dethroned all Marvel character in terms of one liner and jokes
"you always did think I was an idiot"
"Thats aint fair, bill... we all did"
Lmao
SERGIO IM A SERGIO TOO
Now that aint fair Bill you know your an idiot
@@Sergioisdead🤦♂️
@@dbdistrash heyy you don't get it bro, it's like a dog seeing another dog at the dog park but more Hispanic
Dutch identified with the Natives (later leading a new gang composed almost entirely of them) because from his perspective they were the same, “free thinking freedom loving, fair minded folk sticking it to the man. Only they fought to literally preserve their culture and existence, I think Dutch hated the modern world because a man like him had no influence on it. He loved power and control and whilst in the gang he was King, but he felt rejected by the outside world.
There's no doubt Dutch loved power, but he definitely had real qualms with modernization. The concrete and cobblestone, the lack of greenery, the smoke and smog of factories and mechanization, the population density. He hated Saint Denis, the city most emblematic of the new age.
Yeah but the flaw in his ideology of recruiting natives is that you had people like Charles and rains fall who sought peace and negotiation of cultures while Dutch recruited murderers and thieves. Every man has a destiny and makes his choices and Dutch chose the wrong sort of folks to live with.
The Indians did a lot of extremely cruel things to one another and to Americans that would be considered crimes against humanity.
In a sense this is true , but there is certainly an element to it that Dutch knew he could manipulate their sense of loss to his gain. It’s present in both games; he plays on their hopefulness that they could reclaim some of what they lost if they just kept fighting for Dutch’s cause. He utilized that hope in order to trick them into fighting for something Dutch knew would never happen. It’s sad that as he delved deeper and deeper into madness, he cared less and less about using the people that thought he cared about them
@@whysitthat3515 I don’t think he ever really cared about the people he used, it just became more apparent over time
Antagonizes bill and then lectured him for getting upset
fr fr
Yeah bill got done so dirty by everyone in camp always being insulted/brushed off as an idiot idk why he was so loyal to a man who had no respect for him
@@JohnWall-lj1mxhe’s always misunderstood. He’s always treated so badly which is probably the reason why he’s rude to everyone and is so defensive.
Should have watched his God damn mouth about Native people
Tbf he’s lecturing him for taking it to racism, not just being upset. He only got a lecture when he got racist.
Dutch may be a villain, but atleast he isnt racist
True
And neither is bill tho
Yes he is theres footage of him pickn on lenny in a racist way pushing him down and tryna the same with charles but gettn hjs ass kicked look it up
@@blackflashjohnsonhomie, ur joke is not funny
@@blackflashjohnsonThat was Micah. Micah was shoved by Charles, I don’t recall him interacting with Lenny, but he was sort of racist to Charles.
Dutch did Marion dirty 💀
👍
Marion is a good girl
He's a sensitive lady
I honestly wonder if witing that in for bill was a subtle holes reference 😂 mr sir's name actually being marion bein called out in a similar fashion. Either way just a thought.
If you remember and played rdr1 you’ll know Dutch pretty much turned into Colm with the natives didn’t really give a rats ass about them he just cared about his needs and wants most.
Those who decry racism the loudest are usually the most bigoted behind closed doors. Malcolm X said as much about 50 years ago.
Honestly, Bill went through a lot of trauma when he was fighting, so I understand his fear turning into anger towards a certain group, even if i don’t agree. He saw his friends get scalped and killed. And I understand Dutch’s point because being racist is fucking STUPID. Bill just needed some modern day therapy. Most of the Van Der Linde gang did.
Well said
It is true that the native Americans fought savagely tho scalping was brutal af
@@christianguerrero1305the colonists were the ones that placed five dollar scalp bounties on Native Americans. They normally had long/decorative hair so you could distinguish them apart from other people and it was one of the highest paying jobs in the country
@@christianguerrero1305the Americans were savage too them
@@WWNbroadcastsno they weren’t……
“I don’t doubt you saw things… What you saw, was people who lost everything TO savagery”
As a Native myself, I’ve always praised this game for its honest and authentic portrayal of the Indian condition, which is far worse today than it ever has been for most of us. We need all the awareness we can get.
İ really like Rockstar's idea to include this subject into the game. İ literally play as a native character in online myself!
The dialogue in this game are better than most movies..
W game
W edit
W developers
Yes
W comment
@@noodlemaster5812 iq 0
W actors
@@noodlemaster5812 Sounds like a skill issue
I think Dutch was actually upset by this comment because he felt as if Bill was calling him a savage. By the time of RDR1; Dutch is living with what is essentially a band of raiders who are only intent on destruction for the sake of revenge, similarly, Dutch doesn’t seem to have any real plans by the end of RDR2 that aren’t focused around destruction and revenge. He also doesn’t care about the Natives as we see when dealing with Wapiti.
Preach tolerance while picking the pockets of the oppressed. Some things never change.
I got Dutch eaten by the gator here in this misson. It gave me some Captain Hook vibes 😂
In chapter two, if you listen in on one of the conversations between Dutch and Lenny, there's a hint at this with the former opposing Lenny's POV about Miller.
Who’s Miller again
Agent Miller
@@VipVanWinkle you mean Agent Milton?
@@nam6282Evelyn Miller. The progressive author that Dutch looks up to and reads the work of. He introduced Arthur to Rains Fall and Eagle Flies. There's a side mission with him in the epilog too
and in the end, lenny was right about evelyn miller. he was just a rich man acting like he knew the common folk, which was a thing authors did during the 19th century (dickens is a good example of this)
dutch doesn't have a response to what lenny says and just acts like he's wrong
Dutch and Negan would’ve been good friends.
Dutch was particularly woke for his time period, which is impressive considering he’s a deranged killer 😂
I mean honestly not the most unrealistic thing in the world, though it was the era of eugenics. Even progressives at the time generally supported a form of eugenics. Granted progressive eugenicists probably would have seen people like Dutch as criminally undesirable and sought to end his bloodline so there's that as a reason for him to reject eugenics.
He possesses things…you will never understand…
@@tapioca8574 eugenics was def popular then from a racist perspective. But Dutch and Hosea’s progressive views seem to be considerably more woke than expected imo.
@@Arturo_Kilgore_Morgan There have always been people who were more radically progressively minded than the average person. There were American abolitionists in the 1700s, for example, well before any true movement formed.
The Vander Linde gang is all incredibly and unrealistically progressive
Bro Bill yelled in Camp at Lenny the other day and called him Boy and Dutch went in on Bill for like 5 minutes about not being a racist piece of shit... You can say a lot about Dutch but he was not a racist.
Sure he might have murdered innocent people and left countless more traumatized and broken...but at least he never says mean things about people who are different.
Solid reasoning!
@@theguybehindyou4762 They never claimed he was a good guy, they just claimed he wasn't racist.
In all fairness to Bill... depending on which Indians he was fighting in which wars, yes, on occasion, certain American tribes I would describe as at least as savage as the American soldiers.
We all know the Army murdered the American Indians, but do you know how many Civilian settler families were murdered by rebelling Natives?... it wasn't a small number.
Imagine that Europeans come to your country and take EVERYTHING from you, every piece of land, every piece of land where you can plow, sow and raise cattle.
they forcefully change your current life through the barrel of a gun. there is now a campaign against the Russians for waging war on Ukraine, it's a shame these crimes have been conveniently forgotten. what the Europeans did was incomparably worse. These people's lives were brutally taken away, no one had the right to do so, they were placed in reserves like animals.
I am Polish and I know how occupation and attempts to destroy culture and country affect people, in Poland there was a guerrilla war, just like the Indians, for them every white person was evil, just like for my grandparents every German and Russian.
Bruh, they settled on their land 😂
@@master1442p "Bruh", that does not justify murdering thousands of defenseless men, women, and children.
@@dilloncrowe1018 alot of the time American soldiers promoted them to retaliate and used it to justify their own crimes. At that point America had kidnapped their women and children, stolen their land, supplies and medicines from them in hopes of their elders dying off. It's unfair to compare the brutalities of an oppressive invader to that of a desperate culture fighting to survive
@@master1442pit’s not theirs now 🤣🫵SCOREBOARD!!!!
Say what you want about Dutch, he was preaching on this one.
Some absolute bull crap
@@RustyCog lol not really, everything he said is what actually happened. The real American history 🇺🇸
@@Dutch329 No, its not. Natives were savages and double crossers.
@@Dutch329Bill was correct
@@BiIIyTheKid 2 things can be true. No doubt it was probably some natives who weren’t good people but your European ancestors were just as, if not, more savage than the natives with all the killing, lying, and stealing they did. lol
Bro really went
Antagonise
Antagonise
Antagonise
Antagonise
Antagonise
Antagonise
He got bump in the noggin from the trolley jobs, now he's picking on bill, after that's his true self appears
Conclusion: he got a severe concussion
That's a myth
Every scene added Complexity to his character ngl
"watch your mouth there boy" he really respected them
And them used the same people as a step ladder
@@saulofogagnolo2859 How grifting works. Plenty of examples of that today.
@@theguybehindyou4762 tbh that term is so overused it's lost all meaning now
Funny how he says that yet in chapter 6 goes and helps Indians just so he could get money
I think the point is that he didn't care about their race. He just committed atrocious acts towards everyone
He was a grifter.
The way John looked up to Dutch was wholesome.
The natives were beyond savage. The things they did to innocents was unspeakable.
Arthur did much worse in my playthrough
So true
@@throckmortonsmith no he did not. amerindians would skin people and eat them in front of their friends, they'd kill all children, they'd r*pe and burn ppl alive ... Arthur is a well behaved kid, even on low honour, compared to that. then again Dutch's point here is interesting but wrong, they did that before white men came
nice victim cards boii
coming from a guy that's one letter off from being a molester. That's crazy
I can understand Bill's perspective, though. His experiences gave him intense fear of the group's warfare. I mean, there are accounts of Custer's Last Stand ending with the Native warriors outrunning the cavalry division's horses. And the slaughter completely ended with the scalping, looting and desecration of the soldiers' corpses. Between an enemy who had been pushed around for far too long and thus had finally started fighting back as ruthlessly as they could and extremely stupid and glory-hungry leadership, a lot of men died needlessly under the Union Army, both in and around the Civil War. Because of the military's unnecessary expansion campaigns against Native Nations, and the Native peoples' growing desperation and responsive brutality, I have no doubt that that was how many of these soldiers in the Union perceived the Natives.
Also, I call B.S. on Dutch more or less saying that none of the Natives were savages. A good portion of the Skinners were of Native descent and that entire gang was the definition of savage.
Dutch is saying they are a product of the conquerors that drove them to near extinction. To call them savage is to excuse the conquerors that put them in the position they were in. The only difference between them and the Spaniards, French, and British that conquered them was technology. We don't know how those nations would react to being conquered and driven to near extinction, because they weren't.
We can however see examples of other cultures undergoing the same conditions of the Native Americans. The Native peoples of Australia. The Irish. The Germanic peoples during the time of the Romans. etc. If you corner a rat it's going to bite and claw. People are the same way. Cut away our civilization and we become animals.
@@NicholasWood-y4kthis. “But the natives were savages and ruthless” yeah no shit. They were continuously lied to, manipulated, and bent over backwards by trying to engage in peace talks. They had everything taken from them, ruthlessly, and when they turned around to fight back for their peoples the government used it to paint a picture of them as uncontrollable beasts. In 2024, knowing everything we factually know about Native Americans and the process of forcibly clearing them off their own land, I’m not sure how you could ever reasonably call them “savages”
@@NicholasWood-y4kBut that’s just not true. The Natives were practicing things like human sacrifice and all manner of savagery long before the Europeans arrived.
The idea Dutch is presenting, that they were just peaceful, pipe smoking civilians before the Europeans turned them into savages, is pseudo-history.
@@egglegg3667 They also did that same shit to each other before whitey showed up and beat them at their own game. Spare me the sob story.
@@theguybehindyou4762 they systematically exterminated their own peoples before the whites showed up? Now this I never knew, appreciate you shedding light on this historical fact
Reminds me of idea brought up in Cormac Mcarthys “The Blood Meridian”.
What idea is that?
My favorite book!
This actually made me sympathize with Dutch
Dutch was only half right about the Indians. Too bad the way he thought of Bill was the same as he thought about the Indians. He chose to be a bandit and tried becoming a warlord with a bunch of Braves who sold their souls for some snake oil by The Silver Tongue Devil himself.
Don’t call them Indians call them natives it’s racist to call them Indians
From what I know from history, I absolutely do believe Bill saw the Indians do some fucked up shit.
Even John swung his head when dutch said watch your mouth to bill
Honestly if RDR had more of these with inside info and stories on people that'd be MUCH funnier
Dutch: "I can excuse murder, but racism is where I draw the line!"
Arthur: "You can excuse murder?"
Yet he never reprimanded Micah for being racist.
Some of the tribes were brutal, others were more peaceful. My family fought to defend themselves, but weren't the type to sticks heads on pikes or scalp people. At the end of the day, the English were against the savage practices in the neighboring nations. Thats partly why they sought to conquer and civilize Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. That training and colonization from Rome really did a number on them.
There's no doubt that the American Indians had savage practices. All peoples do. On top of that, the tribes had different practices and some were very hostile while others were open.
Thats what Bill didn't understand. What he witnessed was real, but it wasn't the whole picture. It never is no matter how big and detailed you make it. We are all ignorant of most things.
Thank you! I was looking for this comment!
Savagery wasn't entirely an indian thing, and conquest wasn't entirely a European thing.
Scenes like this show Dutch was a good man at heart
He's a liberal shutup
Does it? Is he not the one who used an Indian tribe as bait so he could make his “escape”. Dutch can preach all he wants but actions speak louder than words. He’s doesn’t care about the natives at all despite all his talk.
Manipulating Liar....like Milton said Maniac Silver Tongue
And why not give bill a chance to explain himself if bill was in a war against them then i don't doubt he realistically did see some savage shit right or wrong. But dutch instead just belittles him instead of listening like any good leader does.
@@mortamer2351He was being blinded by Micah and only cared about himself by that time.
Makes a lot of sense. Dutch read a lot and his idealized lifestyle could be compared to the lifestyle of Indian tribes. A sense of kinship considering the US government wants to take that from both of them.
I've always hated how they treated bill, I don't feel like he deserves it.
“Omg woke, rockstar went woke, go woke go broke”
Yeah so? Same energy as "Omg someone said something i disagree with therefore he is a nazi and a transphobe!"
that when Dutch went rogue.
"Watch yo mouth there boa..."
John: 😳
Both made good points during the argument. Bill was there and said it was brutal, Dutch wasn’t there and said it was wrong. Of course I agree with Dutch more.
It's important to remember that some tribes were indeed savage, and some even took slaves and went as far as helping the Confederacy.
He says that now, but in one chapter or two, he just uses the indian to get money, even if it mean they loose everything and start a fight they can't win. What he tought and what he did are two different things. Theory and in practice
Just cuz you dont think they are savages doesnt mean you cant make money from them
Depending on what tribe he fought, Bills perspective can be absolutely justified. Not all indian tribes were as peaceful as the Wapiti, and even they were honirable when they went to war.
You left out the best line!
"Well, setting love aside, can we get on with this?"
"Don't you never set love aside, Arthur. Love... is all we got."
Said the man with no loyalty.
Arthur’s laugh 😆
That’s why, in a way, I love Dutch’s character. He’s deep and very smart.
I don’t think this means Dutch isn’t racist but that he’ll manipulate any type of truth to get people on his side
I don't think Dutch was racist. He would equally use and abuse anyone. He wouldn't target any ones race when he could screw over every one
dutch has way too much on his plate to care about race
Dutch: "Stop being bigoted toward natives!"
Also Dutch: "It's them moonshiners that are the problem!"
Dutch kinda little bit lost his mind on that scene
Dutch was a fool on this scene
He provoked/bullied bill for nothing
I love that Dutch says this and then uses Egal Flies and Rains Fall for his own gain
You sir are a fish
No wonder he fucking hated Angelo Bronte
Dutch acting like he doesn’t glaze up the most racist member of the gang thrice a day
I feel bad for Bill
I quite liked bill in rdr2
Dutch is alot, but he ain't a racist.
oh he's just a cult leader, killer, theif, and kidnapper...but don't worry, he's a heckin wholesome chungus antiracist!
You see the crazy thing is Native Americans were very savage, especially Apache. South America was too so Bill ain't wrong. Dutch just got a liberal behind the scenes there
This mf always has a plan
It’s not savagery. Just basic war
Dutch was too smart for his times
Dutch is taking threads of anarchism (a real political movement in 1899) and the Noble Savage trope, also present in the late 19th century. To him, the native Americans were leading the true free life that men were meant to live, before corrupt government disrupted it with violence and law.
Digger with the hard R
ok digga
@@Beni-dv2otDigga D
This indian apache violent interaction with the cavalry (rangers) will be a pivotal point in RDR 3's history
Dutch’s only redeeming quality
Bro knows what true savages is then became one later on 😂
I think the reason he thought this way is because he saw himself as the gunslinger similar to the Indians as he too is losing everything
Dutch is a very very complex character
I love how Dutch did become evil due to Hosea’s death and Micah manipulating him but he still isn’t racist
Don't make Sense a guy like Dutch being able to fight soldiers and veterans of Wars without training or participate in combat
Well dutch is an excellent shot with his revolver. He taught Arthur and John afterall. Plus that time he shot John's binoculars one handed with a cattleman revolver. Its shown and implied that dutch had been in pretty much the same situations as the US army would engage in at that time. The only difference being he was in a gang and had far fewer numbers as well as little to no command structure which historically is harder for soldiers to fight against than an organized opposing army.
@@americancrusader7554 yo man a simple thug like Dutch would never beat a war veteran,this is like seeing Charles Mason beating Navy seals,but that just me being realistic, don't worry about that bro
@@João-t5k7lhe's spent his entire life fighting and running, he probably has more combat experience than a lot of soldier, in a 1v1 he could probably cone out on top.
If Bill was talking about the Comanche, he wasn’t very wrong😅
it’s sad how much his mental state declined towards the end of
Dutch Greet greet antagonized bill
"Racism Bad🤓🤓🤓"
Cringe. Great game, but a message that No Longer needs to be taught.
It's less about a lesson now and more of a look at the time the game is set in when racism was a lot more prevalent
@@alexray1711 except no. because 95% of the characters are inexplicably antiracist for some reason....well we know the reason...
He made a point that pushed my brain to the last war and reason behind it u know? Isrlplstn
free ps
Dogg Pound vibes
It’s cuz Dutch’s mother was an Indian
Tbh anyone can be a beast amongst men
This made me like Dutch even more until what happens to Bronte and Guarma..
Dutch wasn't a villain he just started to lose his mind because of old age
He was like 45 at the moment 💀
bro WHAT
Remember, Dutch still referred to the natives as savages when he started to exploit them against Cornwall later in the story.
Let's get this man to 100k
Both the indians and the army was savage, Dutch should stop with the sophism he makes no sense.
this scene doesn’t get talked about enough
You didn't see the women and children get scalped
Based Dutch
virtue signaling anti-racist while being a crappy person... the opposite of based.
Dutch is onto absolutely nothing with this one
Nuh uh
Hi Bill 👋
@@Ninoy00 1st grade level response
@@graememurphy7123 oh am I glad that I’m not him
The horrors he saw were comparable to Vietcong soldiers in depravity
No. This dialogue actually shows & supports what everything Dutch was even before Blackwater.
Bill was in the US army.
You know the entire mission of Eagle Flies was going into war vs the US army.
Even Dutch being an evil character behind the curtains, he knows the US army are the real savages that wanted to manipulate & provoke indian tribes into criminals.
Just so that the US army can create a fake justification into slaughtering the Early Indian American Tribes.
Dutch was a bad character, but this scene proved how much he had a sense of morality & equality.
And how he had a fair sense of justice not until Hosea died & completely abandoning everything he held for.
You can hear on Horseshoe Overlook Chapter 2: John & Hosea saying they used to give away the money they steal to the poor because Dutch feels the system government only support the rich & kill the natives.
Which made sense BECAUSE the gang was rich enough before the Blackwater Ferry Job.
They stopped being generous since they became poor while being chased by Pinkertons into the snowy mountains.
This is why Hosea & Dutch kept arguing in Chapter 1.
Dutch wanted to be a criminal to get even with Blackwater debt. Hosea still wanted to continue being the generous people that they've been.
Such a great game
All these scenes always felt so out of place when you play the game... Sloppy work... Like sometimes its Arthur who's the thoughtful one, then its dutch and Arthurs the dumb one, then its this, then its that... It felt like a story ment for a show, cut down into a movie... Sloppy mess
Agreed
i love the game but i see where you're coming from and I get it
Dutch is right, in this instance anyway. He was a madman but he had a lot of wisdom for someone of his age.
Narcisism showcased
Rdr 2 as a whole adds complexity to dutch..... that was kinda the point captain of redundancy.
Obviously, y'all dont read history. The natives brutalized each other LONG before any of us showed up. Whole tribes we will never know about because they were wiped out by other tribes, For their land. So the idea that natives were all holding hands singing Kumbaya when we showed up is pure ignorance. We came as Conquerors! And we did what we did. It is the history of the world! And not exclusive to the U.S.
Did you watch the video? That was his whole point. The stupidity of trying to, as it was at the time, make it seem like savagery was exclusive to the Natives’ when by every possible metric and statistic, the Europeans were significantly worse.
@@JacobWooster-zo8yw what the video showed was dutch saying we were the savages. The natives here were savage to each other before we got here. There was atrocities on both sides. We came here and conquered this nation, like many did before us in many places. But to act like the natives were all peaceful and friendly to each other is pure fantasy!
@@221WTF Where did he say that they were all peaceful and friendly lol? And did you even read my comment lmao? All you’re saying is proving my point. The Natives’ were already savage to eachother just as much as the Europeans were savage to eachother before they came here to reap another awful savagery on the Natives’. Except at least there was a modicum of dignity with the Natives’ unlike the Europeans just coming here and raping the land for all it’s worth. Shown by the whole point of the games villains and their representations of different Modern-Day evils.
@@JacobWooster-zo8ywYeah well look at the europeans now, how the tables turn eh? I bet you love it
@@hsthatzo8063 I like to see them whine and complain yes.
I don’t see Dutch a villain I see him as a complex traumatic character that on top of the law chasing them and rival gangs and him slowly turning into the person he said he never was he is a broken person and yes Micah manipulated him because that’s another reason he listens too him because Deep down he was never going too get the gang safe and actually them escape and live peacefully that was all a delusion and fantasy
It"s "Sharp's" shooter.
no
What is bill talking about? Civil war?
American-Indians wars, maybe only Hosea would have been alive by the time the civil war occured
yeah this was like 30 years after the civil ware. bill would have been a child. more likely refering to the spanish-american war era
Dutch went to reddit university
lol facts
He was acting
My actual name is Dutch😅
do you have a plan?
@@nurgle-j5nyes…
We NeEd MoNEy!!!
You know unpopular opinion but most the time tbh I feel bad for bill yea he may be a dumbass but he’s not completely stupid he dose come up with some decent ideas and he isn’t lying when he fucks up he always gets shit on but if somone else dose it’s just one of those things. I feel like bill yea may be ignorant to sum things and yea he is a dumbass sometimes but look at the valentine job and he is a decent shot and fighter 🤷♂️