I'm just home from Latrobe myself and had the pleasure of meeting Jeff in person. What a kind and gentle man he is! (And so TALL!) The Assembly was such an encouragement to me, visiting with bishops and archbishops and clergy from all over the province. The general tone was of solidarity, worship, and great expectations for the future. I'm in a parish moving from the International Diocese to the Great Plains Mission Network under the Diocese of Christ our Hope, and it's a wonderful, gradual, shift to a mission-focused, geographically centered network of area churches working together for the Great Commission. I pray more clusters of parishes can join forces for the Lord in this way.
Getting the ACNA to fully geographical dioceses can only work if there are two sets of completely overlapping groups of dioceses: one group for the traditional holy orders, and one group for those happy with the innovation of women priests.
Fr. Darryl Fitzwater explained much about the Augustine Appeal petition that was confusing and/or problematic, in the Forward in Faith North America podcast recently. Excellent corrections and clarifications. I encourage everyone to give it a listen.
I'm not sure that taping an envelope to someone's office door (to make sure the person gets a copy of the document addressed or pertinent to his duties) is the same thing as creating a petition that is never directly sent to the people to whom it's addressed. Kind of the opposite, it seems to me.
@chrismaguire3667 Haha, that's pretty funny. Actually, it was a common thing to do for things that the educated class wanted to discuss. It was the content of his discussion paper that made it controversial.
Why is it so complicated for people to get that a diocese is an area, not an idea? Read a little history. It's a place. This place not that place. An AREA of administration. It seems ACNA wants out of mainstream anglicanism but wants to keep the nebulous "anglican settlement" that says whatever you want it to say and mean. Including things like geography. Is an ocean a river? It it a mountain? Do people name a location "what I think about this"?
I don’t understand how or why these churches associated with ACNA in the first place. Why didn’t just go with TEC. (Referring to churches such as Luminous)
I suspect that - in the Early Church, using the Pastoral Epistles for organisation - there would have been far more bishops than we have today (think of transport, for one thing!); and they would have been more 'local'. The notion of 'geographical jurisdiction' as we have inherited it is more likely to be Byzantine/Medieval in origin, when POWER was entering into the Church, through an all-male 'priesthood', modelled on the structures of the Roman Empire. The Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, who lived, taught, was killed, yet rose to be seen, was quickly neglected as a 'model', in favour of vapid, cynical, titles like "Servant of the servants of God", and "First among equals"; all of which are suggestive of rigid hierarchy. Fortunately, it is this rigid 'Church-of-Churchianity' which is struggling against the World, which God created and loves; but which the Church appears to disdain.
@@chrismaguire3667 I agree, Chris. Often it is simply another version of the way in which people behaved during 'The Johnson Years'. I have copies of a spoof introductory reader, modelled on Ladybird Books, but published by Dung Beetle Books. Entitled 'WE DO LOCKDOWN', on the page where the church is locked, "Mummy" tells her little girl and boy, "I'm glad the church is shut: they use fear and guilt to control people." Oh, the irony!
Nongeographical dioceses have been part of the ACNA from the beginning, so why is it a problem now? The ACNA has thrived even though there are dioceses that permit women's ordination, so maybe these aren't the major problems the online contingency is making them to be, ie., they aren't first order problems. There have been clergywomen in the ACNA ever since that first generation of bishops left with their clergy, men as well as women. It was a great point about people writing these letters and signing off, without knowing how the whole process works, and especially when they are drafting these statements online but are not sending them directly to the people who could actually do something about it. They're virtue-signaling. Nothing else explains it. I'm so glad you talked about clergy and social media, that it can be too toxic!
I think perhaps that younger generations have never been told that an open letter should be actually mailed to the intended recipients before it is released publicly, or at some point when it is opened up for gathering more signatures (which makes it a petition). Look at the state of public schools and of the family after the 1960s -- were points of etiquette big on the list of what Generation X and Millennials were taught? Ever heard Steve Taylor's song, "Lifeboat?"
That said, I have an enormous old dictionary from 1974 with an appendix showing all the proper forms of address for people and dignitaries of all sorts. I page through it for fun and edification. You can pry it from my cold, dead fingers 😅
G-d the Holy Spirit will use anyone or *thing* to communicate His Word, if there's no-one else really listening to what *the Spirit is saying to the Churches.* Just like He used Balaam's *donkey!* I have made comments like this before and have *never* had anyone gainsay me, because I use Jesus' *own words,* and who, really, can gainsay Him? Though, it seems, many have tried, and are doing so! Paul warns Timothy about that, and, well, we are seeing that *now* in a way that has never been in the last 2000 years! Don't argue the toss with me, take it up with The Word Himself! Shalom.
@@davidsprouse151 Nah, it went to crap on Day 8, dude, and we have been, and still are, all paying for for it since, whether you believe in G-d or not. I thought, by previous comments I have seen, you didn't, or is there another @davidsprouse, or similar, taking your name in vain?
There isn’t a distinction in how people entered the church in tracking membership and attendance (I’d add a third source, births). Possibly we can look at adult baptism figures as an indicator of conversion to Christianity, however.
The plants that the ACNA have been underhanded and devious, at least they have been here in Canada. I’m sorry I can see why some see problems, because a church plant moves next door adopting the same name as the Church I serve. That seems devious to me.
Let's be honest, we all know a lot of people left ACNA congregations during Covid because of the weak response of priests and certain bishops who seemed to have capitulated on the issue out of fear. And some of us left and still will, more and more now, because we just realized that the bishops have no sense of urgency or seriousness towards putting a binding moratorium on women's orders despite the fact that the bible and the Church throughout history forbid its practice. This is to get more people into the churches. But we all know that it's more important to make disciples who know God and obediently follow Jesus in all that he had commanded. Despite really wanting to be unified and loving, some us just can't and won't bring ourselves against conscience to partake of an invalid eucharist when a woman is at the altar. Others left because of the push for social justice rather than biblical justice. It seems that the future of normal and orthodox Anglicanism that is faithful to God and his Word, the creeds and the councils with a historical patristic understanding of theology and holy orders is going to be more like the G3 and REC. Otherwise, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are gonna pick the low hanging fruit.
My experience with your first paragraph was the opposite, but I concur with the rest of this comment. I'd add, the Lord of the Church is still working to bring the unity He prayed for at the time of His impending death. So that gives me hope.
@@marmeemarch7080 Paul used Letters, why not the Internet? My elder son has a YT channel would be nice to have a bishop or appointee help with his ministry. Pax Christi.
Interesting question…spirit-body union is as central to Christianity as the hypostatic union is central. In other words, the fact that Jesus Christ our Lord is both God and man denotes that disembodied Church/ relationships is not the epitome of our faith, rather it is substandard though I’ll admit, sometimes necessary. The Apostle Paul desired to be in person when possible, wrote pointedly in letter so he could focus on edification in person, followed up in person visits by letter, and I don’t remember when he wrote a letter to people he never met. That’ll be my homework!
Jesus said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come-sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
In the for-against paradigm, Christianity is for Jesus Christ the Lord and for obeying everything he commanded. Christianity is against the Spirit of evil, it is not against flesh and blood people. Though Christians sometimes misunderstand and put themselves against flesh and blood people.
Let's all commit to praying for the new archbishop! And the new people filling the positions on commissions, task forces, etc.
I'm just home from Latrobe myself and had the pleasure of meeting Jeff in person. What a kind and gentle man he is! (And so TALL!) The Assembly was such an encouragement to me, visiting with bishops and archbishops and clergy from all over the province. The general tone was of solidarity, worship, and great expectations for the future. I'm in a parish moving from the International Diocese to the Great Plains Mission Network under the Diocese of Christ our Hope, and it's a wonderful, gradual, shift to a mission-focused, geographically centered network of area churches working together for the Great Commission. I pray more clusters of parishes can join forces for the Lord in this way.
Getting the ACNA to fully geographical dioceses can only work if there are two sets of completely overlapping groups of dioceses: one group for the traditional holy orders, and one group for those happy with the innovation of women priests.
Fr. Darryl Fitzwater explained much about the Augustine Appeal petition that was confusing and/or problematic, in the Forward in Faith North America podcast recently. Excellent corrections and clarifications. I encourage everyone to give it a listen.
14:31 isn't it wonderful they progressive congregations are leaving the ACNA and not the other way around?
Don't be a stick in the mud
I just went thru the UMC split. 100% agree.
Praise the Lord for our Arch Bishop
Thank you for this report and discussion
There will always be overlapping geographical diocese’s. If the REC is apart of the province it will always be a thing. #RECStrong
I am another example of someone who was a member of the ACNA but then left to join the Episcopal Church and I did so for economic reasons.
Respectfully, would you mind to elaborate on that?
Economic reasons? What, ACNA has higher yearly subs than the Episcopal Church ?...
I'm not sure that taping an envelope to someone's office door (to make sure the person gets a copy of the document addressed or pertinent to his duties) is the same thing as creating a petition that is never directly sent to the people to whom it's addressed. Kind of the opposite, it seems to me.
Um, ask Martin Luther.
@chrismaguire3667 Haha, that's pretty funny. Actually, it was a common thing to do for things that the educated class wanted to discuss. It was the content of his discussion paper that made it controversial.
"Questionable bishopsmanship" -- I think I understand what Mr. Kallsen meant 😅
God bless you, thank you
Let's have more of Jeff, a very winsome person.
Why is it so complicated for people to get that a diocese is an area, not an idea? Read a little history. It's a place. This place not that place. An AREA of administration. It seems ACNA wants out of mainstream anglicanism but wants to keep the nebulous "anglican settlement" that says whatever you want it to say and mean. Including things like geography. Is an ocean a river? It it a mountain? Do people name a location "what I think about this"?
I don’t understand how or why these churches associated with ACNA in the first place. Why didn’t just go with TEC. (Referring to churches such as Luminous)
I suspect that - in the Early Church, using the Pastoral Epistles for organisation - there would have been far more bishops than we have today (think of transport, for one thing!); and they would have been more 'local'. The notion of 'geographical jurisdiction' as we have inherited it is more likely to be Byzantine/Medieval in origin, when POWER was entering into the Church, through an all-male 'priesthood', modelled on the structures of the Roman Empire. The Lord, Jesus of Nazareth, who lived, taught, was killed, yet rose to be seen, was quickly neglected as a 'model', in favour of vapid, cynical, titles like "Servant of the servants of God", and "First among equals"; all of which are suggestive of rigid hierarchy. Fortunately, it is this rigid 'Church-of-Churchianity' which is struggling against the World, which God created and loves; but which the Church appears to disdain.
Completely agree
People love a self-regarding organisation, don't they?
@@chrismaguire3667 I agree, Chris. Often it is simply another version of the way in which people behaved during 'The Johnson Years'. I have copies of a spoof introductory reader, modelled on Ladybird Books, but published by Dung Beetle Books. Entitled 'WE DO LOCKDOWN', on the page where the church is locked, "Mummy" tells her little girl and boy, "I'm glad the church is shut: they use fear and guilt to control people." Oh, the irony!
Nongeographical dioceses have been part of the ACNA from the beginning, so why is it a problem now?
The ACNA has thrived even though there are dioceses that permit women's ordination, so maybe these aren't the major problems the online contingency is making them to be, ie., they aren't first order problems. There have been clergywomen in the ACNA ever since that first generation of bishops left with their clergy, men as well as women.
It was a great point about people writing these letters and signing off, without knowing how the whole process works, and especially when they are drafting these statements online but are not sending them directly to the people who could actually do something about it. They're virtue-signaling. Nothing else explains it.
I'm so glad you talked about clergy and social media, that it can be too toxic!
I think perhaps that younger generations have never been told that an open letter should be actually mailed to the intended recipients before it is released publicly, or at some point when it is opened up for gathering more signatures (which makes it a petition). Look at the state of public schools and of the family after the 1960s -- were points of etiquette big on the list of what Generation X and Millennials were taught? Ever heard Steve Taylor's song, "Lifeboat?"
That said, I have an enormous old dictionary from 1974 with an appendix showing all the proper forms of address for people and dignitaries of all sorts. I page through it for fun and edification. You can pry it from my cold, dead fingers 😅
G-d the Holy Spirit will use anyone or *thing* to communicate His Word, if there's no-one else really listening to what *the Spirit is saying to the Churches.*
Just like He used Balaam's *donkey!*
I have made comments like this before and have *never* had anyone gainsay me, because I use Jesus' *own words,* and who, really, can gainsay Him? Though, it seems, many have tried, and are doing so!
Paul warns Timothy about that, and, well, we are seeing that *now* in a way that has never been in the last 2000 years! Don't argue the toss with me, take it up with The Word Himself! Shalom.
@@chrismaguire3667 this simply isn't true. Things aren't any worse now than they have been since day 1.
@@davidsprouse151 Nah, it went to crap on Day 8, dude, and we have been, and still are, all paying for for it since, whether you believe in G-d or not.
I thought, by previous comments I have seen, you didn't, or is there another @davidsprouse, or similar, taking your name in vain?
Thank you, please would you define growth? Transfer growth or converts? Blessings
There isn’t a distinction in how people entered the church in tracking membership and attendance (I’d add a third source, births). Possibly we can look at adult baptism figures as an indicator of conversion to Christianity, however.
The plants that the ACNA have been underhanded and devious, at least they have been here in Canada. I’m sorry I can see why some see problems, because a church plant moves next door adopting the same name as the Church I serve. That seems devious to me.
Interesting. City?
Let's be honest, we all know a lot of people left ACNA congregations during Covid because of the weak response of priests and certain bishops who seemed to have capitulated on the issue out of fear.
And some of us left and still will, more and more now, because we just realized that the bishops have no sense of urgency or seriousness towards putting a binding moratorium on women's orders despite the fact that the bible and the Church throughout history forbid its practice. This is to get more people into the churches. But we all know that it's more important to make disciples who know God and obediently follow Jesus in all that he had commanded.
Despite really wanting to be unified and loving, some us just can't and won't bring ourselves against conscience to partake of an invalid eucharist when a woman is at the altar.
Others left because of the push for social justice rather than biblical justice.
It seems that the future of normal and orthodox Anglicanism that is faithful to God and his Word, the creeds and the councils with a historical patristic understanding of theology and holy orders is going to be more like the G3 and REC. Otherwise, Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are gonna pick the low hanging fruit.
My experience with your first paragraph was the opposite, but I concur with the rest of this comment. I'd add, the Lord of the Church is still working to bring the unity He prayed for at the time of His impending death. So that gives me hope.
You're only focused on *planting* churches if you're focused on planting *churches*.
With the internet, why do we need Diocesan bishops?
Because the internet does not replace in person relationships, and we clergy need personal relationships with our bishops
Are you pulling our leg? Embodied relational connections are integral to Christianity. God made us this way.
@@jacobdunn6030 Easier to reach others on internet than in traffic jams. Blessings.
@@marmeemarch7080 Paul used Letters, why not the Internet? My elder son has a YT channel would be nice to have a bishop or appointee help with his ministry. Pax Christi.
Interesting question…spirit-body union is as central to Christianity as the hypostatic union is central. In other words, the fact that Jesus Christ our Lord is both God and man denotes that disembodied Church/ relationships is not the epitome of our faith, rather it is substandard though I’ll admit, sometimes necessary.
The Apostle Paul desired to be in person when possible, wrote pointedly in letter so he could focus on edification in person, followed up in person visits by letter, and I don’t remember when he wrote a letter to people he never met. That’ll be my homework!
You will be known by your fruits. So why are you so against the gays?😊
because many gays are musical fruits, and the more you eats, the more you toots
Jesus said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come-sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
@@Jordan18561 Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything
In the for-against paradigm, Christianity is for Jesus Christ the Lord and for obeying everything he commanded. Christianity is against the Spirit of evil, it is not against flesh and blood people. Though Christians sometimes misunderstand and put themselves against flesh and blood people.
@@msdavis1984 😇