We Have A Huge Problem With Ebikes....
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Ebikes are full of proprietary systems, many emtb motors, batteries and virtually zero upgrade path when new electronic systems are released. We need better, and hopefully this can change in the future!
1 - Less Proprietary systems. Make stuff cross compatible.
2 - Allow users to upgrade to the newest stuff when its released.
Someone finally said it. Phones are a very good example of charging standards that the bike industry should take notes from. Thanks for the video Rob.
Nu ma asteptam sa te gasesc aici. Salutare! :)
I think USB type C at 240W (48v at 5A) is enough to charge a bike. And everyone will be happy
on the contrary, phones are a good example of planned obsolescence as well. No way to upgrade and basically useless after a few years
The problem is smartphone batteries are tiny and low powered (5v USB charging) compared to the batteries which power an eMTB. The [software] battery management to service the [high power] cells in a bike battery is very different - even if the principle is broadly the same.
The problem is they don't have to.
Back in the day "everything" was standardized. That's how we got bolt patterns and Philips versus flat screws and things like that. They need to voluntarily accept standards for the FUTURE of the industry.
Tldr: he's 100% right. They are being short-sighted and if they had their own future bottom line in mind, they would work collaboratively to come up with a solid system that could be upgraded by their own engineers in the future.
Bafang is probably the only motor system that doesn't do this to an extent. So far the M410, M510, M560 and M600 fits in the same frames and use the same displays. That is what made me choose a Bafang full squish frame with a M600 3 years ago. Made 7000km of hard riding without any motor problems. It's still going strong, but I decided to upgrade the motor to the M560. I would never go with a big brand e-bike for the exact reasons mentioned in the video, They offer no easy way to upgrade or repair. With Bafang, if I break my frame I can still get a new one, if I break my motor I can just get parts to fix it. And it will cost way less than a Yamaha or Bosh. And the charger for the battery is just a standard plug that you find on almost any AC to DC power converter.
Let's have someone post a video on this. I'd take any band that isn't about planned obsolescence. The rest can loose business till they get a clue
When I was making my commuter ebike, I went with the bbs02 as it'll fit in any standard bike, parts are easily available and they keep compatibility going as much as possible. When I do finally get round to upgrading the bike I'll almost certainly be sticking with bafang. Someone just needs to make an open standard, then the market will follow.
@@ChristopherNutt I also have a BBS02B 500w full squish MTB that I built back in 2016-17. My only problem with it, is that the smallest chaining with a good offset I can fit on it is 42T. A bit big for a MTB and I had to make a custom battery to fit in the frame. I still use it as a loner for my bikeless friends. Works fine. But the M560 is just so much more capable in a MTB.
Bafang rock my world... over 2 years, multi builds, some doing 50 miles a day, every day, service is simple every 1000ish miles and the price is unbelievable compared to the rest.. changers slandered, use any battery with the right voltage, all the motors from 250 watts to 1.5 killer watts.... all fit slandered frames, the newer motors all fit in their older frames. what was the problem again... ?
I agree about Bafang. I have a bbso2 that I put on my old Trek and it rocks. Got a couple thousand miles on it. Burned out the display and put on another with no problem. Big name companies with proprietary systems lock you into their product line. I don't see them changing anytime soon. Until then, it`s Bafang for me.
Well said, Rob. This is something that I’ve been mulling over for a while. Three months after I bought my eBike, which I chose with range being a major consideration, Bosch brought out a battery with larger capacity, but… no backward compatibility. I feel that my only upgrades will be every 6-10 years when I can next afford a new bike. Surely, in these ‘greener’ times, manufacturers should be collaborating on compatibility issues. More power to you, Rob.
In my experience owning Bosch, they are mediocre at best. Very expensive, Bosch purposely makes them nearly impossible to repair. I will never again own anything ebike made by Bosch.
Thats why I recommend building your own ebike of your choosing
Frame design and shape, determine the shape of the battery.
Software for a certain battery and motor need to all work together.
I think motors, and rebuilds for e bike motors will become easier to get done, or replace.
More outfits will get a handle on it, and parts and motors will be more available.
These things are kind of new on the marketplace still.
@@bradsanders6954 It takes awhile for individual inventions to arrive at common engineering methods. Motorcycles and automobiles are a good example ot this evolution.
@@bradsanders6954 It is a relatively simple motor mount mod and adapter fabrication to mount a non design spec motor in a bike frame. An aluminum frame is more suitable for mods, besides. By the time a motor needs replacing on a carbon composite bike, the frame is probably going to be shot also. People do not know that carbon composite begins to break down upon the 1st ride. Metal will last indefinitely as long as it's range of elasticity is not exceeded.
You just talked about what I thought after buying my Cannondale with the Shimano EP8 (EP800) and a few days later the new version of the EP8 (EP801) appeared, I was shocked by the fact that it was not compatible with my bike frame and battery. I understand the industry but it is a lack of respect for consumers, because I'm subject to the EP800 and the BT8036 battery disappearing from the market when they need to be replaced. This is an expensive bike that was difficult for me to buy, and I don't know if next year I still have spare parts for it. I'm very sad.
This is just another warning sign for anyone buying cutting edge technology, be it E-Mountain Bikes, EV Cars or whatever. Want to be in the forefront of the technology users? Pay the price! Not to say that buying a bike that "pedals for you" is sheer nonsense!
@@candrelsrosaif you don’t like bikes that « pedals for you », why are you here ? I imagine you don’t have a smartphone or a computer that thinks for you 😂
@@slarok1819 He actually has a point. We, the consumers are the problem. We buy overpriced e-bikes with integrated batteries and molded frames for a specific motor for 5k or more. And we know exactly what follows. But we still do it and bicth about it :) That's why I went with BBSHD kit...
The fact that the same generation stuff (801 as a slight improvement to ep8) is incompatible is a joke. This should also be part of the review process as it leaves customers and dealers behind. I don’t get it when production cost are always the argument for price escalation and the industry is not capable of providing adequate spares. Efficiency has not hit the industry yet
The main problem with e-bikes is the price. How the hell do they try to justify motorcycle prices for a damn bike. Smfh
I love that you made this as I suspected it as such but had no idea of the scope. Brilliant suggestions. I hope this video is seen by the managers and shareholders of all the big and small bike brands. This isn’t a rant - its a call to action.
Another problem not mentioned is spare parts and repairability when the manufacturer abandons older batteries and motors. Terrible if you have to get a whole new bike because your battery is dead and there's no way to get a new one because compatible batteries aren't being produced anymore.
totally this yea\s
Fantastic video as always Rob, by why not go one step further and offer the brands an opportunity to use this as a platform for collaboration. Even if you get a couple, it's a start.
You do not understand this ? These systems are not compatible because companies don't want it. Then they will lose a lot of money.
@@Dryb1as Yeah, that's true, as soon there would be an open standard, third party companies could kick in and start selling batteries for way lower prices. Currently you need to pay around 500 euro for a 150/250wh range extender from these brands, power stations with the same amount of watt hours are available for 150-200 euro. The small BMS chip in the battery costs probably 2-3 euro in production.... they will never give up these money cows and will work hard, to find reasons, why this will not be possible. It would only be attractive for very small brands, where customers are too scared to buy it, because they aren't sure if they got any spare parts in the future....
Well said! I’d like to add that bike manufacturers aren’t locking anybody into their products when you can’t upgrade from say the ep8 to ep801 or get the newer SL engine.
Very good video, addressing issues where factory support is seriously lacking. I have a 2021 Orbea Rise. The battery is beginning to show signs of age. I can’t seem to get 20 miles of relatively flat terrain, riding.
Someone should come up with a bottom bracket that would take the place of the motor. In my case if I removed the battery and motor, then installed a fake motor/bottom bracket, I’d have a slightly heavy “analog” MTB.
Spot on Rob! I would confidently wager that most cyclists are quite strongly focussed on sustainability, so that is sizeable group. We need to rally behind this message and demand, with our wallets, as that’s how brands are most firmly woken up, that this is the future we want. And, we also want retrofit kits designed and built by brands/manufacturers to mend the damage already done.
If you have a battery powered bike.. Are you truly a cyclist?
@@sahhullyes. Can you suggest a better term in English? I do appreciate that Dutch differentiates between wielrenners and fietsers. But both of those classes would be cyclists in English.
@@DizzyDiddy for me.
A cyclist is the human powering the bike. He is cycling.
Electric bikes are more similar to motor cycles.
The term I use for them cannot be repeated.
The UK cyclists I come across on a daily basis are lawless scum that believe that the highway code and traffic laws don't apply to them.
However they are the loudest voice when the nasty driver hits them, even if they didn't look, jumped the traffic light, cycled the wrong way down a one way street. Or just ride along on the pavement.
@@sahhull there is a huge range of things that falls under the electric bike umbrella and I agree that many of those are more like motorcycles. But bicycles with battery assistance that only work when pedaling and only up to relatively low speeds are definitely still human powered bicycles operated by cyclists. I don't think English is going to develop a distinction between them and people using non-battery assisted bikes.
@@DizzyDiddy at the moment it's more like the wild west.
Electric scooters are illegal to use on the street but as long as you are not a fool the police won't do anything.
The same with fully electric bikes. Unless they draw attention to themselves.
Good job, Rob. You succinctly and elegantly put out what I wanted to scream out loud in rage. Not sure what power we consumers have to force manufacturers to develop standards across the board.
The cream will rise to the top. Or top brands will cooperate. A frame maker will a version or 2 of the same frame to make the top 2 motor gear boxes. The battery holder will be built onto the battery(with charger) to clip/lock unto the bike. Everything else is pretty universal.
Just had it with my Cargo Bike last spring. After two years and a few weeks the motor seized (around 6500km) and I needed to get it fixed with a bike-shop nearby as I don't get access to the motor. Even they had some issues getting the motor. If shimano plulls the Plug on the production or decides not to supply an exchange motor for whatever reason I am left with the choice of finding a good welder to mangle with it
That is quite a biiiiiiig bonus for Hub-Motors or Conversion kits. Furthermore, I am told it can be a daily ride but need to wait 8 Weeks for a replacement motor?! There is still some progress to be taken, but not on the engineering side alone.
Excellent point, glad you made it!! Besides the money aspect for riders, in this day and age companies building something to go enjoy the outdoors should also consider hugely to be environmentally tuned in. This hole thing as it stands is certainly not ... :(
This is pretty much why I didn't get one so far.
And I'm too lazy to just modify bike myself, but basically for long life I would need to do it this way.
Also thing is not so much about the competition as about you going like a good doggie back to company every time something is not ok, because you cannot fix it yourself I bet battery packs will have some quirk preventing you from replacing old cells with new ones in it, and other shenanigans for other parts as well.
As someone who works professionally in this field, I generally recommend Bafang, Em3ev batteries, and Grin Tech as universal standards. Shark style batteries in general are extremely easy to work on and fix for customers (no proprietary communications to the motor controller), Reetion is also similar but can requires unique frames. Bafang being the easiest to get parts for, upgrade, and cross compatability. And Grin Tech for their open software (ability to reprogram to your specific needs).
The motor mounted inside the frame instantly makes both products proprietary, motor design has to exist around the bottom bracket, not parked inside it. I personally would build a EMTB with one of those CYC mid drives - they're a bit pricey but I'm sure the price would be lower if they were a bit more mainstream, somehow.
The ability to upgrade motors and batteries will sell more bikes , that's the only thing holding me back from getting an emtb
You are 100% right. simple example, you want to go abroad, but you can not take the battery with your ebike on a plane. And with so many different standards, good luck finding a rental one. It's killing the sport.
Years ago cars came with proprietary OBD2 plugs - we had a Rover, no one could read it apart from Rover dealers. The EU brought in rules to standardize across all auto manufactures - thats the only way the manufacturers will collaborate to produce a common system
That's one reason I left the bicycle style of bikes. I built 2-motorized gas bikes and both are hard-tail bikes. Just adding a front-suspension fork improved the ride 50%
from the standard fork on one of the bikes. Most of the bike frames are cheaply built and aren't durable enough for modifications to a motorized bike. I went to a Ebike
or I should say a Emoped style bike which uses a HubMotor which is easy to change over to a new HubMotor. The batteries are 2 standard mounted batteries on rails
that can be switched out to larger rails or even higher voltage and current batteries. The Emoped I bought is the Akez S1 and even if I wanted to remove the HubMotor
and go to a gas engine I could easily do that. The frame is all steel has full-suspension and used the 20"x4" tires. The ride and handling on the bike is real good along
with the range since the 2-batteries supply 48v. plus 26A of supply. The Emoped can be easily modified to run up to 72v. and a single high amp battery if need be to
run higher speeds. I believe the manufacturers are wanting to sell proprietary batteries at a high cost. The general Public should stay away from those manufacturers
selling those Ebikes. Another thing I noticed was that the Dashboard readout has colored readouts and in bright sunlight the status of the battery and controller is hard
to see and some of the status data can't be seen even wearing polarized sunglasses. Most of the things on the Ebikes are just gimmicks to sell to the Public. The Akez
has the M5 Dashboard display and it is a quartz display with a black and white background which is real easy to see in bright sunlight and is actually too bright at night
even in the lowest selection setting. The Lectric Ebikes use the same display and as far as I am concerned, that Dashboard is the best functional no frills Dashboard.
I would say that the Dealers and manufacturers are really not selling practical Ebikes but are selling Ebikes with Bells&Whistles to capture sales. I guess, Buyer Beware!
I have a four year old Carrera that I can no longer use. The year after I purchased it Halfords changed the battery connection. They no longer supply the old style battery and I have not been able to source a replacement.. Halfords staff have confirmed that the newer battery has no improvement over the older design and the only change was the connection. Sure there are a few people selling the older batteries second hand but that's a bit of a risk.
As an environmentally conscious bike mechanic I'm also so frustrated about this. I personally just use Bafang motors, since they will accept any battery that's not locked to a specific system.
Well done! One of the most important videos you ever made! We need this ASAP!
My BBSHD works on almost any frame, with almost any battery and can be repaired and upgraded with parts from hundreds of suppliers all over the world. Plus it’s more powerful, more reliable, more configurable and lower cost than any large ebike manufacturer on the market. When I’m tired of it I can replace it with a CYC or a DM02 for torque sensing or lower weight. I really believe people need to get more into learning how to do these things themselves.
Same with cordless tools, laptops, you name it. Locks you in to the brand you choose first, pretty much.
Sold my e-bike for this reason and bought several different bikes for different scenarios. A racing bike gravel bike, all upgradable and I take music on my bike which amps my willpower. Just put on music that make you go hard. I love biking way more than with my expensive e-bike I sold.
I’m in the market for an e-bike and never once considered the disadvantages of no upgrade options. I guess i just figured you would sell the old bike and buy another one. Not realizing you could just upgrade the components. Makes sense. To bad it’s not a standard.
Technically these parts are all compatible,it just needs new firmware writing for it that overwrites the standard manufacturers firmware, either that or a drop in controller for a motor that is open source.
There’s ways around this, just needs someone to step forward and do it.
Amen brotha! I love standards but regrettably, there are thousands of industries that could use them.
100% agree they need to standardize the motors and batteries it should also lower the cost as most bikes are extremely over priced
We have had three ebikes - the maintenance and expense has caused us just to ride regular bikes and donate the ebikes to charity - I hope they can do something with this because just junking them sucks.
Totally agree, I bought saved and bought a bike with a "top end" Shimano E8000 motor, then literally a month later they dropped the EP8..... Great!
Also, I have the 504 internal battery... impossible to upgrade, so I'm waiting for a more power dense battery in the same housing....again...great.
100% agree on your analysis. However, no amount of appeals to manufacturers will solve the problem. The situation will not change without state regulation. The same applies to power tool batteries and electric car batteries by the way. The amount of wasted energy and resources makes me mad.
bro you make the best emtb content i hope you are planning to give us this year a best emtb award (at least from tge ones you already tested)
Bafang rock my world... with over 2 years, multi builds, some doing 50 miles a day, every day, service is simple every 1000ish miles and the price is unbelievable compared to the rest.. changers slandered, use any battery with the right voltage, all the motors from 250 watts to 1.5 killer watts, all fit most frames, the newer motors all fit in their older frames. what was the problem again... ?
i wasn't aware of this issue. Shocked that each brand has been able to design so much individual stuff without cross compatability.
This is why we convert our own on the Endless Sphere forum!
The only way to solve this is to have some legislation (either in US or EU) that would mandate repeatability and parts replacement for at least 8 to 10 years after manufacturing - that way all companies would have to have backwards compatibility to limit amount of old stock and not to fall behind the competition in innovation. Meaning, if you buy 10k bike today, you're guaranteed to be able to replace the motor and/or battery 10 years down the road.
Ofc without such legislation, neither bike brands nor component brands would go for this - they prefer you buy a new bike when the battery gets degraded or the motor starts to rattle - which both will because these are consumable parts, much like chains or tires
This is absolutely brilliant! I don't even have an ebike, but this popped up on my feed and I couldn't agree more with everything you said. It would be great to get this discussed in parliament. Although with this utterly useless government, I doubt anyone will care. Worth a try!
I'm betting the best that could happen within maybe 5 years is a standard for charging the different brands' battery packs. But it will take longer (if ever) for a majority of brands to agree on much of anything else. The battery shapes and capacities are inextricably tied to the ebike frame styling and such that distinguish one brand from another, so I'm doubting they will ever give in on compromising those things. The bolt patterns and shapes for the motors are so hotly contested between brands whereby shaving a gram or two here and there or improving torque by a N-m or two by tweaking some physical parameters of the motor or by reworking the motor housing features are constantly touted as the next best thing since time began, and again are inextricably tied to the frame designs. This is going to stifle cooperation to standardizing these aspects. I hear you Rob, but all the brands think their sh*t doesn't stink so committing to standards that are compromises to all the parameters they have all been tweaking on their own for so many years will just not come about. I hope I'm wrong but the manufacturers just want us to buy their bikes, tie us in to them exclusively for expensive replacement parts and after the warranties are up leave us on our own to do whatever with the older models. So it's really not much different from the automotive marketplace where there isn't much of any standardization between brands there either. But nice to get it off your chest I suppose.
So much sense. Bikes are filled with second party components so it's truly logical for components to be switcheable. Also for someone like shimano, extra motor sales to existing frames could be a massive increase in units sold.
I built my E-bike exactly to avoid this shit. I don't have to worry about that incompatibility. Not only that, but I can use any battery, controller, motor, and voltage that I want. Furthermore, I can have as much power as I want, and it is not illegal to use off-road in my country. If you keep buying this expansive crap, you enable those companies to keep doing that they are doing. It's like if they bike doesn't belong to you. I have 4000w mid-drive with 12 speed cassette, and I did not spend half of what the frame Rob is holding worth 3:52 plus I have way more power.
You don't need to be an engineer to build an ebike yourself. If you can build a bike, you can build an ebike. There are tons of guides on RUclips teaching how to do it. A BBSHD and 52v battery with as much capacity as will fit in the frame is all you need to start and is enough for 95% of people.
Yes yes and yes. Bang on man. Hopefully by the time I can afford one some of your ideas will have taken off!
DIY ebikes for the win anyday. You choose your motor and battery however you want. And if you dont know how to build one, ask someone who does.
I ride a cheap bicycle I bought some ten years ago and it's super simple to service and to find and replace parts, it even fits parts from bicycles thirty years older.
I'm hesitant to get an electric bicycle until I can get that kind of serviceability.
Buying an electric bicycle for big money only to have to scrap the whole thing ten years down the line just because of some outdated arbitrary proprietariness is a waste.
In the 90's I said I won't buy a computer or parts of it for gaming, or overclock for 1-5% boost. I have been right.
In 2010 I bought a used Specialized p.2 alu 2004. 30 thousand kilometers later I'm still riding and fixing it myself (except for the fork and hub bearings, those still work).
I've bought a car for half a grand. Max 8 k (with my family).
I have not much to say about electric bikes.
That is what the state is supposed to do. They are supposed to enforce a standard as they do now in Europe, at least regarding charging cable for smart phones. This would increase competition in the benefit of the customers, since even small companies could be genius in just one particular field, but could integrate their product…. yes, but everyone asks for small state, forgetting that the state is exactly designed to make such decisions, for the common benefit or at least should be designed for
100% agree but imo it's too soon for that with some parts like the motor, the market is too new and there is still a lot of innovation, you can't make a standardized motor mount because the motors are still getting smaller and smaller
but ofc things like chargers could be compatible, or battery connection to motor
there is still some development in how much current you can push in the battery so you might not have the ideal charger for all future batteries but no reason why it should not work at all
there really is no reason for proprietal connectors (other than brands incentive to lock customer into their exosystem), for example e-scooters have this mostly standardized, 90% of them are using the GX16 aviation connector for charging
for example battery to motor connection, no need for different connectors, could be all using the same one, just pick a high enough current connector and it's good for next 20 years
in the end battery is just a battery, if it's the same voltage there is no reason for it to not be compatible with another system at the same voltage
the issue is all manufacturers want to maximize profit so they will choose the cheapest option suitable for their application therefore using a standardized part that will work across all the other applications might not be the cheapest one or the lightest one so I kinda undestand it's not as easy as it seems to conusmers
This is the issue with anything electrical with batteries since apple introduced the iphone. Everyone is talking about envorinment, but the market is going towards incompatilibity, anti repair, anti independant repair, anti upgrade. governments should really force some new legislation about all these topics.
Maybe what we will see in the future is two or three brands of motors and batteries kind of like the group set. Specially in the environment we’re in now I’m sure one or two of these companies will not be making these batteries and motors a few years from now.
New tech depends on competitive designs, naturally market competing for most sales that define a de facto standard.
When standards happen, sometimes competitive low prices leave the market. The average 250W, 500W, 750W ebike is good enough for most riders and now regulated by some countries; so what's the upgrade need? In fact, fast ebikes are own enemy, now causing accidents, fire, theft, regulations and licensing fees + taxes. The only modest energy density battery I want is one that does not catch fire, high density battery internal connections are fire risk from normal bike vibrations.
This is a really silly situation. Consumers are going to get very annoyed as parts start to fail and their very expensive ebike becomes worthless.
this will also drive costs up SIGNIFCANTLY, or at the least stop them from coming down as fast.
It not about being “out of date” in 6 months. The bike still works. Just cause you want the latest and greatest, sell and buy a brand new bike. The issue is my 3 year old bike breaks a want to be able to buy parts and want the option to do it myself and upgrade at that stage. Upgrading a perfectly good part is part of the problem with this consumerism black hole. But replacing a worn out or broken part is the argument you should be pushing. At that stage the new upgraded part should (in an ideal world and to a limit) work. If we had to have everything standardised we’d still be rocking usb A cables, there has to be room for advancement but not at the cost of designed obsolescence
Yeah! I would wish, that they at least would provide repair kits and spare parts and have a guaranty they service and keep the batteries for the "old" bikes.... I think my bike will outlast my ability to ride, so a (hardware) update is not important or crucial.... IF it breaks, and is outdated, I still would rather repair it, than buy a new one!! Like my old rimbreak spacialized sirrus... I still can upgrade everything and service it....
The batteries and the chargers, at the very least, should be standardized by voltage. Motors maybe not. Notice that motors in other motorized vehicles are still proprietary,and somewhat difficult to upgrade. I think they should at least be upgradable within the different brands for "enthusiasts" much haw it is in the automotive world.
As an engineer, I find most of this coming from someone who is uneducated. Standardize the bosch battery. Everything else would be overly constrained.
This is why I bought a real mountain bike and put a mid drive kit on it. More power then I can even use and a strong superior bike frame.
100%!!!! We need a UDH of electric drives.
My eBike hub motor failed after a year and a half and can’t be replaced as the small local company that made them have stopped. I have a large 600W battery pack that went on top of my rear rack and cost £500 or so that is now useless waste. I’m just riding it as a regular bike for the moment but eventually hope to buy an eBike conversion kit and new battery from a larger company to reconvert it to an eBike.
From my perspective: Flyon120 TQ in Haibike AllTrail 6.0 -> 5999€ paperweight! Twice in Germany for service! 880KM. Just to be informed that in USA they recalled ALL of those bikes/engines! 🤮 I despise this practice of treating different customers differently. This will have its own consequences, as all in life does.
take this from someone that designs and manages manufacturing of electronic products: compatibility increases complexity. complexity slows down engineering, often lowering product quality. keep in mind that most bike companies do not have experience in design and manufacturing of elctronics - until now they were bending metal or layering fiber sheets. they have no grand strategy for the product lifecycle or any clue on how to build an ecosystem. they probably outsource the design and production to asia and might even hire different contractors for different bikes. as far as standards go... never seen this happening, neither in consumer, nor in industrial tech - unless regulation requires it or companies find USPs outside of the actual hardware WHILE saving a buttload of cash in 'cost of goods sold'.
Don't get me wrong, your critique is appropriate and I share your hopes for the future of ebikes, but it's gonna take 5-10 more years until bike manufacturers professionalize on their tech R&D. Look at how old IoT is and some of the companies involved have just grown up in the last few years.
Simple fix. Let the manufacturers know you will not buy anything proprietary, and will never buy until all manufacturers agree on a standard and then hold to it. It would take all the buying public to hold their feet to the fire. The two manufacturers that first agree to a standard will quickly begin to take over the market share.
I did something similar to this with Chevrolet. I told them they made junk and I would never buy from them again. I didn’t affect their market share. It wasn’t because of me, but today, everyone know GM makes junk, and their market share is not a small percentage of what it was forty years ago. They won’t last much longer, and yes, I held to my convictions. Without standardization, and owner repair drive systems and batteries, today’s e-bikes will become tomorrow’s paperweights.
My yamaha motor blew up but I managed to get a later motor and screen to work with my bike.
But that was an expensive repair.
And it should all be standardised protocol like cars are legally required to have.
That's why I build my own with kits you go along faster alot further and batteries throttles controllers are interchangeable. Manufactured e bikes are a waste of money
you could theoretically charge them with USB-C PD already, just rather slowly.
Welcome to how motorcycles and bigger vehicles are made. It's a real bummer.
The "Save The Environment" justification of purchasing an eBike rings hollow when there is no sustainability for the product. You can't throw these batteries (and the rest of the materials ) away every time you want a new bike and tout it as being environmentally friendly.
I got around this by buying a Kona Dew-E and Kona El Kahuna. Same battery. Same motor. Two different eBikes completely. Besides that, I think Shimano is the way to go since most everything aside from SRAM is Shimano.
Well see you in 10 years. Hopefully by then a standard will exist. Same thing happens with every industry.
It will all get resolved once a company like Tesla properly entesr the ebike market, if they do! If not then eventually some company will dominate enough that the standard will change to whatever their standard is.
The society of mountain bike engineers needs to be developed.SMBE
Only the EU has a chance of fixing this through regulation. We saw what happens with even trying to implement a universal plug standard Apple holds out till the very end and does not act unless forced. It will be the same with e-bikes.
sounds like a great company, to build adapters
I get the points being made. But I would NEVER spend £10,000 on a bike. The kind of money will buy me all sorts of (multiple) possibilities. And unless, and until, these manufacturers come out with things that ARE upgradable and interchangeable, then I will NEVER contemplate this, due to what feels to me like built in obsolescence.
I've thought this for a while meaning I'll probably sell mine some point soon while it's still relatively new
"Greed is good"
- Gordon Gekko
I only ride Chinese standard ebike stuff. These western brands try to make standards but no… in China they are decades ahead when it comes to e-bikes. They have stuff that you can fit on your rusty old grandpa’s bike and turn it into a widow maker. Cables all as standard as it gets… get motor from that factory while batteries are cheaper in that other factory… no problem.
Everything with a motor, electric or petrol has been this way since the beginning of the machine age.
This is a reason I'm not spending money on new bikes now. Everything is made to be temporary and disposable.
Mid drive will be history in no short order
Basically ebikes are not for the enthusiast or prosumer who likes to upgrade. They are for the older senior rider who will be just fine with stock forever.
unless its mandated by state, no company will want to use universal standards
They are doing what others only dream of doing. The majority want you to be loyal to their brand, but they forgot one thing. The one that people will depend on will be the one that is compatible with previous, and future models. Doesn't keep going up in in ungodly price after each upgrade. They don't like locking up their brand. They don't like pricing people out of their brand. These electric bikes are at war with each other. The one(s) that really wins will be the one that actually cares about the consumer too. If you check around you will see a few of them are going bankrupt, out of business because no one is buying their products.
Get shut of em! They were brought out 10 to 15 years ago as pedal assist for overweight 50 plus riders who found hills etc hard going. Now because human beings are basically lazy, they have become mainstream, like E scooters, skateboards, everything is now electric. If you are an able bodied rider, I can't see the point, I love that tired, drained but invigorated feeling I get after a day out on my Scott Scale 710, which is now 5 years old, still relevant, still like new because it's looked after, still rides the same as it always has, minimum maintenance and isn't scrap because the battery is knacked!
Even worse, even if you have a specialized sl and full fat, even then nothing is interchangeable within brand :-(😢
Bosch standardised the power tool battery eco-system. There are about 16 major tool manufacturers and all the batteries are interchangeable - excluding the fact there's 12v and 36v ones. But that's because you don't want a massive battery on your drill, that's big enough to power a lawnmower. You want two batteries.
AAA cells have been around since 1911 and a standard for a long time. There is absolutely zero reason why we cannot have some kind of standardisation.
I'm curious to know if the new EU battery law applies to e-bikes, it probably does because at the very least a major focus we haven't been talking about (because we're too busy poking fun at the evil Apple fanboys) is recycling and safety. I gave up searching for it though and I'm certainly not going to read the document for the actual law. If the EU comes up with standards, the rest of the world will fall like dominoes.
We've also got companies like Silence with their mopeds and quadricycles that use the same batteries. Gogoro has an amazing system in Asia, you just stop at a battery station, pull one out and plug your empty one in and leave. So much faster than petrol. Plus you aren't murdering anyone. Those are a bit bigger than you'd want in an e-bike but if you install a common system for mopeds, you'd also have a location where you could offer ebike batteries.
This is a solvable problem, the EU might already have pushed them to do so, Bosch have got form in doing their own open standard anyway are are a major battery manufacturer so they profit from other people's battery packs anyway, so there's only one problem. That's the form factor. Unless the can settle on the form factor of the battery, you can't standardise it very easily. Unless you can come up with a modular system which would add complexity and cost.
The motors is also solvable, but again, the form factor of where they go on the bike is an issue. You can have any frame you want but the motor space would have to be the same layout, or a choice of a couple of layouts, for a replacement to work.
I do hope you start a campaign to move the industry forward around standardisation. Although, if you can afford a £10K bicycle, you can probably afford to maintain it for quite a while. Right to repair would require manufacturers to keep stock of parts and make them available, to extend the lifespan of products. So if we haven't already got that, it's coming in legislation.
USB-C ALL THE THINGS!
Imagine charging a Tesla with usb-c 😅
Пускай Бафанг сделает комплект мотор-батарея-контроллер-датчики для спешилайзид турбо лево))
Yes, absolutely!
Bike industry is just engineering circles that roll square to sell you a new wheel.
One of the reason i wont buy an ebike or ecar is in 10 years when i want to ride it the motor or more concering the battery will not be able to be charged and i wont be able to ride my bike
great point; in the end they will all become ewaste. that really puts me off buying anything
I'm but touching an ebike until this gets better. I don't trust any of the current ebikes to keep for the long term.
What will happen is the batteries and motorcontrollers will be jailbroken or hardware hacked but this doesnt help the law abiding public.
Hub motors and rack batteries innit. No sympathy for anyone who drops 8K on an MTB and gets upset about obsolesence.
How different is this actually from any car brand. If you like the speedometer of a Porsche, does not fit on a Chevy….I understand the frustration but…this is the way of the future, isn’t it? Recently I upgraded from a Google Pixel 6 phone to a Pixel 7, exactly the same size but the cases do not fit because the location of the cameras is slightly different. It is shame that to support sales we need to waste everything we buy in just a couple of years.
I can see the EU in a dark corner,
"I guess it's up to me to fix this"
You need to stop using the “out of date” phrase, because this phrase is contributing to people wanting to constantly upgrade when it’s simply not necessary. A bike purchased in Jan 23 with battery and motor technology from the previous year isn’t worthless because a new bike released in June 23 has the next generation of battery and motor. The big problem with that though is simply how long will parts be available for the older system? That is where focus needs to be, and is 100% why I wouldn’t buy an e-bike.
I do agree with standardisation though, but e-bikes are still relatively new and as we know competition promotes innovation, and even if we don’t like it there are still proprietary laptop chargers even if there is also support for a standard (USB-C).