As an atheist, I would love to get to know God, but all I've found are people who claim to speak for him and ancient writings from people who claimed to speak for him. When you actually find the guy, let me know, but I have a feeling that I'm going to be waiting awhile on that one.
As an agnostic, my biggest issues with religion are definitely hiddeness, as well as the whole temptation thing. If you put a bowl of food infront of a starving person, dont be surprised if they eat it regardless of what you tell them. If God wanted us to succeed maybe he shouldn't place every possible hurdle in our way. I've been told that God is love and logic itself, yet I see evidence of neither. An all-loving being wouldn't delight in the suffering of those he claims to love.
I was atheist 3 months ago, had a near death experience and saw hell, that's what moved me to be Christian, but I still don't understand the Bible or why hell would even exist and be that bad.
Pints, I've noticed a trend in "intellectual" religious circles where the objective isn't to give a strong argument for God but to basically have a meta-discussion about what is evidence and how can we even evaluate the world around us without a fundamental ultimate. This is a huge change from what I remember growing up where people tried to witness to you. With all that said.. What convinces you God exists?
Nature and creation(have you seen bunnies?), human's eternal desire and longing to know God, peoples love and devotion for God(like paul young), the bible... I think we have hints.
@@Devious_Dave i guess if you are e willing to admit you do have a longing, its a good start. From there you will find out very soon what is real and what is not.
@@reality1958 You ever considered that you watching this video and responding to comments is God's method of communication. As a Christian I used to avoid conversing with atheists, until I realized that perhaps they were there for a reason and I should talk with them.
While Divine Hiddenness doesn't refute God's existence, it does show that if God exists, there must be things more important to Him than propositional belief in Him. I think that has important implications for theology and religious practice, in particular for evangelism. (I feel like the video agrees implicitly to this, but doesn't really state it outright.)
This is literally the reason I gave up on religion. It all sounds a lot like an abusive/manipulative relationship, rather than a God who is love itself. All I ever asked of him was to let me know if he was there or not and I got nothing, so logic tells me that's my answer. An absent father isn't worthy of worship as far as I can tell.
@@frozenphoenix9502, @scott Not seein God scares me the most n makes me question things the most, though I may have seen him but I'm unsure if I was fully awake n not dreaming at the time. Of course, i can't really talk to people about it because i noticed people, especially online, have a VERY limited, flawed n biased understanding of all the major religions, on what science says about Design, etc n worse, most are VERY CLOSED MINDED n aren't interested in coming to a more full, accurate, unbiased understanding of what u or your evidence, n truth says, regardless of their religious or non religious beliefs, so i just control my bias, n do an insane amount of research on everything i said in this comment, n avoid arguing unless some1 is genuinely interested in the evidence. I still think absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, n I think because of fine tuning, n because i noticed these ancient scriptures called the 5 Vedas seem to be the source of all the major religions, sciences, math, accurate prophecy etc, that them sayin they were inspired by God, means God's probably real based on the totality of the evidence n logic, n I'm VERY confident we are not this body but some spiritual consciousness within, that lives on after the body fails, especially since science kinda confirmed that Vedic teaching too, n the Vedas explains why most people can't see God in this world, explains how some people can, n i doubt all those people seeing God are dishonest n delusional. I suggest clicking the sub n bell icons on youtuber "Playitalready" for some epic upcoming vids on all the above, that's as good as it gets regarding less bias n more EVIDENCE n logic. his current, main vid n its description have some basically good info, in spite of it being some old school, 240p rushed, short vid lol.
The false problem of hiddenness. Note that the reply to Isaiah's reflection on wickedness in "thou art a God that hidest thyself" is God Himself declaring plainly "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth" (Isaiah 45). In context, what we see in Isaiah's discourse is the irrationality of wickedness which obscures God from the sinner. Moses notes the same in Genesis with Adam saying "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself" (Genesis 3). Man hides from God, not the other way around.
God knows that remaining hidden and forcing seekers to have faith that he exists is working against his stated intentions. The excuses, tap dancing and rationalizing practiced by the faithful to avoid giving honest answers makes that very clear.
I believe the first statement is an assumption that holds a heavy burden of proof. From what I understand, there's a difference between believing that God exists and believing in God. The latter entails repentance and putting one's trust in him. So simply believing that God exists but not believing in him is no different than not believing that he exists (because it results in the same outcome). Moreover, if God knows that someone will not believe in him despite revealing himself (as was the case with Pharaoh and the Pharisees in the Bible for example), it then seems quite possible that it would be better to remain hidden to them as it would have better instrumentalisation value for bringing about God's plans. I also think that if God were to reveal himself blatantly to non-believers, it would be so overwhelming as to actually comprise the individuals free will. But leaving the theodicies aside, I urge you today to seek Jesus and his forgiveness and salvation because he loves you more than you can imagine. As the Bible says: "You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13) God bless you my friend
@@KD-eh3qo It's hard to "not believe" in something in front of you. So I consider that "not believe in him despite revealing himself" to be just a silly excuse. I have girlfriend (in Canada). And even if I would introduce herself to you, you would not believe she is my girlfriend...so.... The one who really needs people with faith are imaginary gods (or priests of those gods...). The true God would not need neither priests or holy book.
@@johnmakovec5698 It's important to reiterate the difference between 'believing that' something is true and 'believing in' something (which is to put one's trust in something or someone). One can believe that God exists without believing in Him as is/was the case with Satan, Pharaoh and the Pharisees in the Bible for example. In fact, there are many people who say that they will not become Christians even if Christianity is true. This is reflective of the book of Revelations which teaches that people on Earth will refuse to repent even after God makes himself known in judgement I commend you for the humour in your example. But even if I didn't believe she was your girlfriend (I promise I would), that would be a case of me not 'believing that' it is true rather than a 'belief in' I'm not entirely sure what the objection that true God wouldn't need priests or a holy book is suggesting. If you would like to clarify that, that would be helpful
@@johnmakovec5698 Agreed, and so the mere belief in the God hypothesis (i.e. that God exists) does not bring about salvation which would explain divine hiddeness
Even as an atheist, I admire Cameron's works and am still deeply interested in theism and trying to understand the sides that thiests take. But when I heard him say "If you want to form a healthy relationship with somebody, doing something that causes them to resent and fight you, would be counterproductive". I wasn't paying very close attention the 1st time I heard it, but automatically I thought he was referring to God and his actions. Then I realized he was referring to non-believers... I think the way I initially reacted to this kind of shows to me that this reason for God's Hiddeness is pretty ironic. It's funny how it seems that God is actually comitting these mistakes such as not establishing his existence, thereby forming a trusting and loving relation with his creations. Things such as the problem of evil and unfairness in the world also contribute to the growing community of people who choose not to believe in God and maybe even perhaps, resent him. Which is counter productive in trying to get more believers and helping more attain salvation. To me, this video seems to be targeted at people who are already of Faith and it's just trying to get them to huff a big puff of copium towards their doubts and concerns. I don't really feel very convinced after watching this as to why this wouldn't be a good argument against Christianity but maybe someone can help clarify on this. Again, no hate to Cameron and any religions. Just felt that this video wasn't particularly compelling.
The more you watch these Apologetics youtubers the clearer it will become to you: they are aimed at the already converted and doubters among them with the simple message: You are not foolish to believe these things. Oh they will have grand titles like "God can handle your doubt" and "Another MAJOR archeological discovery proves the Bible" but they are fluffed up ways to say The Bible is true because it says so and millions of others are with you - and all of them can't be foolish and thus, you aren't too. lol
Its because freewill world. most important thing is free will. But that also causes evil. there cant be genuine Love without free will.. Also for some reason faith is important. Jam. 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 1Pet. 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
@BigPig As you can see from the top critical comments of this video, it does NOT even address the problem of Divine Hiddenness. This RUclips "Apologetics" is for just a business. This is Click-baiting for Jesus. LOL
@Floss bun I thought he was referring to God at first too. I think that lends itself to the point that it can feel like God behaves this way. Or, this is an argument for why people wouldn't believe in God because he makes people feel he has set up his relationship and hiddeness this way, and therefore it would be cruel for a good God to be so confusingly and painfully withholding from those who we're told he wants to have a relationship with. I still think it's a well-produced video and I get the overall point. It's a struggle to make sense of the world and existence. It seems the deeper the intellectual lengths I go, I find equal measures of clarity, confusion, and being haunted.
@@forthwith I understand the critics from those seeking philosphical answers as this is what the channel has contained, even though the name Capturing Chritianity. It started as philosophical but ended up engouraging brothers and sisters :)
@@alecbunting8116 It's hard to know where to begin to be honest. I guess let's start with the painfully obvious. If a nonbeliever doesn't have direct evidence for God, due to his hiddenness, then saying "well God has a good reason for that" is begging the question. That would be like asking Carl Sagan about the invisible dragon living in his garage, and Sagan says "well you see, he wants to be found, but he has a good reason for him not revealing himself to you YET." Same energy. So just on a practical level, that justification is going to actively hurt a Christian in trying to talk to a Non Christian. Before, God might have just been incompetent. Trying to reveal himself but doing it wrong and the whole thing might have been a cosmic accident that the signals got crossed. But now? God might have good reason for hiding himself from you ON PURPOSE. And if that gets you into hell where you're burned and tortured forever, sucks to be you. Part of God's plan, cope and seethe about it. Can't see that winning any hearts and minds. On the theoretical level, assuming you're talking to a Non Christian who actually cares about the philosophical arguments, this is going to run smack into Stephen Law's Pandora's Box objection. If God has good reason to hide himself from you, to the point where you may end up damned forever as a result, then God has good reason to do anything and everything up to that point. God could allow you to be deceived by your senses for example. Now Law's Pandora's Box objection is normally used in problems of evil, in which case the Christian says something like "I have an intuition that my senses are reliable and aren't deceiving me, and my intuition is assumed true unless it's defeated" (known as the phenomenal conservatism argument). The problem here is that the non believer too has an intuition that God is hidden and phenomenal conservatism is going to work both ways. The issue is that all the Christian can intuit is that God isn't allowing them to be deceived, but the non believer is intuiting a state which could put them in hell, which is far worse than being deceived, so this could actually serve as the defeater for the former intuition. Skeptical theism is obnoxious on a good day, but for this argument it's exactly the last thing you want to try appealing to.
@@logos8312 wow. That was a lot. I appreciate the thoughtful reply. It was a very interesting read. I can see you care a lot about this stuff. I was unable to tell if you were Christian or not tho. So I don’t know what your solution would be to this problem of hiddenness. I think you provided some really good insight tho.
@@alecbunting8116 I'm glad it was helpful! To be clear I'm neither a Christian nor an Atheist. I'm kind of a non-religious Theist, but with caveats. Kind of hard to explain. I think the best way to solve the problem is to admit that you're going to have to admit to some uncomfortable things, but you do get a choice about which ones you admit. To see this, let's see some of the explicit problems with divine hiddenness: 1. Problem of evil / suffering. If God is powerful and has a sense of justice, why isn't he helping people who legitimately cannot help themselves? Suppose, for example, that God intervenes in 10% of murders / rapes / etc. at random. Infrequent enough so that people exercise their free will, but frequent enough that he's, well, not hidden. 2. Problem of salvation. If a relationship with God is necessary for salvation, then people who experience God's being absent (even believers who really try to have a relationship with God, but eventually lose their faith) then a lot of people may end up damned due to hiddenness. Here are some solutions available for addressing these problems: A. Moral Subjectivity. If God isn't "good" by some standard aside from his own subjective standard, then God is under no moral obligation to help anyone. At best, people who feel God hides himself from them may not be wrong, but rather than having some grand moral reason for this being the case, God just subjectively doesn't feel like talking to you. The conclusion here isn't great, but it staves off Pandora's Box objections, since there is no "greater good" that God does counter intuitive things in service of. God just makes the rules, at face value, as we see them, and we can just straightforwardly interpret things accordingly. However, if damnation is still involved, then the unsettling conclusion that God is just damning you because he feels like it, subjectively, isn't going to be much better. This leads to... B. Either universalism, or post death salvation. If being hidden during life isn't a huge worry then a lot of the problems go away. God subjectively made you, the world, etc. in such a way that you don't directly apprehend his presence during life? No big deal since he could have your back post death. How hilarious would it be if God puts you here just to run an experiment on you, how you act based on your experiences, etc. and then after you die, God kind of gives the report card and then you start some kind of soul therapy. Surely some oddities might pop out of these accounts but the immediate problem of God "for some grand plan" just letting people burn in hell is blunted, and I'd argue that for Christianity that's the top priority, since I can't see anyone worshipping a God who might be so capricious. The last problem is falsifiability (like Carl Sagan's invisible dragon). For me, I consider theism, first, to be a hypothesis about possible worlds, possibly grounding an account like modal collapse or modal realism. Because that's the scope of my theism, I'd predict that science would have a hard time "finding" God, since science aims to find all true propositions within a possible world, but isn't equipped to discuss any trans-world accounts. The caveat to this is that God doesn't act "in" the world. If you believe that God does do this, say parting the red sea or other miracles, then the problem of "God acts in the world, but he doesn't want to do it when we set up controls to tease out God's actions from usual regularities" is going to be perennial, and I don't have any good ways of dealing with that. I wish I had better advice, but this is a very thorny issue. If anyone definitively solves it, it would probably make world news in short order given how perennial a problem this is for many world religions. The upside is that because this problem is so difficult, it's not really "on you" or "on me" to solve. If you experience God, and hiddenness isn't a problem for you, then keep living your best life. Pray for intercession so God reveals himself to others, and pray for counseling to see if God reveals anything to your conscience that might assuage some of these concerns. Otherwise, I suppose we might get the chance to ask him about this when we die. :)
@@logos8312 I’m serious when I say this, write a book. I’d buy it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It be awesome to know more about how you think on these things. You articulate your thoughts really well describing complex ideas and philosophies.
I think there is one major aspect of Divine Hiddenness that gets overlooked, and is overlooked here as well. What about people that were non-resistant non-believers that found theism, but the wrong religion? For example, when I went from anti-theist, to apatheist, to eventually non-resistant non-belief, I found my way to polytheism and not to Christianity. How is this accounted for? As a polytheist, it makes sense that people might find different gods as there are many, but for the monotheist, especially for the Christians that believe in salvation through faith in Jesus, how do you account for non-resistant non-believers finding the 'wrong religion'?
Well a reply that could be seen as snarky is, that one might accept a religion which suits the person better than the demands of Christianity and therefore makes idols for himself to not have to meet those demands but still (an appearance of) spiritual fullfilment Another reply might be only a different worded one, namely that the person fell for Satans deception.
4:19 is when a reason for expecting God to remain hidden is actually provided and it’s skeptical theism. I would strongly advise any theist against accepting skeptical theism. You‘ll be opening a skeptical Pandora’s box, see Stephen Law’s Pandora’s box objection.
If one adds that god is hidden to that god is not understandable, one must necessarily conclude that there is no reason to consider that god exists. If he is hidden, he is not evident. With nothing to see, one must deduce. But if god is incomprehensible, nothing can be deduced.
Cameron: “God does this because it’s good for you.” Anyone not a christian: “What about when what God does is harmful?” Cameron: “Then its your fault.”
Well, if we assume that that the creator of the universe is pure love (as that is what we would want and that is what feels right) , then it’s not gods fault bad things happen. It’s either our fault, someone else’s fault or it’s do with the way we are interpreting the event through our own pain that already exists inside us.
@@winterroadspokenword4681 if God is all loving but limited in power, sure. But if we add that God created and has some amount of logical control over the systems and laws of the universe, then we have the problem of evil. For instance if god created a world where the sun causes cancer and didn’t tell us about that fact, we need a very compelling reason why that isn’t just pure evil on gods part.
@@jonathan4189 But the sun doesn’t cause cancer. Our emotional condition does. Our skin is perfectly capable of regenerating. Science already knows this to be true. So the issue is why does it sometimes fail? Well, we also already know that our emotional condition can guarantee that if you hold certain emotional conditions you’ll get certain illnesses. This has been known for thousands of years. The problem is we don’t want to face our emotions. We don’t want to look at them. But these are sins in our soul. They are out of harmony with love, so we would expect there are consequences of living out of harmony with law, surely? God has designed the universe around love, but we have freewill to create fear and pain and grief and anger, and chose to hold them inside. The universe is created that these emotions affect our environment, abs it has to be this way or we would never grow into responsible beings that understand how much impact our soul really has, by the time we’ve shed our physical and spiritual bodies.
@@jonathan4189 I want to further add that on a shorter time span, our intuition tells us we’ve had enough sun long before we get totally burnered. I spend a lot of time in the sun abs don’t really use suncreams. I prefer shade. When you’re in it a lot you really get to know when you’ve had enough. You just feel like you’re done being in the sun. You may get a light glow as the skin begins to regenerate but no damage. If we were more in tune with ourselves, and less driven by our own emotions out of harmony with love we would be even more sensitive to the amount of sun we’ve received. So there isn’t this argument either that god didn’t tell us. I guess another point again is that a personal connection with god is possible. God can and does show us things. The bible says clearly that we chose to refuse a relationship with god for whatever reason, and we still continue to do so. So how can we blame god for the fact we aren’t hearing him? The connection is possible, and I can even teach you how to do it if you wish!?
@@winterroadspokenword4681 if I hide a radioactive nuclear fuel rod in the basement of a building and reliy on people to use their own sense of radiation poisoning to know when to leave, have I shown myself to be the epitome of love? If my excuse is that they need to ask me to tell them about the radioactivity, and I’ll only tell them if they tell me they love me *to my satisfaction* have I shown myself to be anything other than a terrorist or 007 style villain? Keep in mind, I didn’t HAVE to put the fuel rod in the building. God didn’t HAVE to make the sun cause cancer. Melanoma kills millions each year. You’re going to tell those people it’s because they weren’t born into the right religion so it’s their fault they orphan their children and die horribly? You’re going to tell the people who get lost in the desert or have to work in the fields to feed their families that its their fault they didn’t stay in the shade? Would you also tell starving people to just eat cake?
This misrepresents the problem of divine hiddenness, though I appreciate the video. The argument is as follows: ' a loving God would ensure that there is no reasonable or inculpable nonbelief in his existence, since this belief is required for human beings to enter into a relationship with God, and since (according to theism) having such a relationship with creatures is a great good, and indeed is one of God’s most important goals. But, Schellenberg argues, since such nonbelief occurs among those capable of belief in God, theism should be rejected.'
There are multiple versions of the problem of divine hiddenness, although Schellenberg might be the most famous. One interesting response to Schellenberg is to attack the premise ‘belief is required for a relationship with God.’ There is an interesting video critiquing that premise that was recently published in ‘The Analytic Christian’ YT channel.
@@calebp6114 Within Christian theology, belief is definitely required to have a relationship with God as there are multiple things required to believe to be saved/have a relationship with him.
@@jokinghazard4022 It isn't a biblical misunderstanding. It doesn't use the strongest and most common versions of the argument. The argument is as stated above.
There is no "inculpable nonbelief" in God's existence unless you literally don't believe for no reason. This argument is easily refuted by the fact that there could be sufficient evidence for God's existence and you're just wrong.
Divine Hiddedness is not an argument against the exitance of God. But against the existence of the God of the bible. Divine hiddenness wouldn't be that much of a problem if God was actually unable to show himself. But that would mean he is not all powerful. Another huge problem is that Christians claim that God is a God that wants to have a personal relationship with EVERYONE. Yet he stays hidden, even from believers. When i was a Christian, I actively searched for him, every single day. He was the most important thing to me, yet he never showed to me. And I do not even mean, that he had to appear to me and talk in person, although that would have been cool. I just wanted to feel his presence and have a conversation, even if it was just in my head... and nothing. That was me for twenty years. If a father was like that, has all the time of the world yet decides to stay distant and hidden, to their children, he would be considered a bad parent. But the worst part of it all, is that not believing in God is a sin big enough to warrant going to hell. If that weren't the case, then him being hidden wouldn't be that much of a problem. But because not believing in God, somehow makes us deserve eternal suffering. Him being hidden, when he could just as easily show himself to us, means he is actively working against us. And that is not an action of an all-loving being.
If God was apathetic, not powerful enough and or evil. Then Divine hiddenness makes sense. And don't tell me, we can't expect to understand God.... If God truly care, he would at least attempt for us to understand him. He would be like a professor who just doesn't even try to explain what he teaches to you, but then fails you for not understanding.
The most insulting thing about this video is that it ignores that people like you exist and your existence and questions are valid and widespread. Apologists only ever speak of the mystic’s darkness of the soul or spiritual dryness as if it inevitably and always results in a happy ending. They somehow delude themselves into thinking it’s a 100% success rate despite the totality of reality showing them otherwise. And if you do show them it isn’t 100% success they blame the person who is searching but unable to find God.
I was just reading the book of Schellenberg on the hiddenness argument and was deeply thinking about it when I got the notification of your video. Really cool animations and great summary of the main objections (I think there are even some more)! 👌🏼
It's quite right to say that "A good parent...wouldn't let their children think that they were gone, leave them in the dark about what they wanted, or refuse to comfort them in their pain". This is indeed one of the challenges of Divine Hiddenness. The response here that "mystics" "often report" DH deepens their faith is small comfort; not only is this an unquantified and vague claim, it hardly works for anyone who doesn't qualify as a "mystic." Worse, the argument is developed to assert that the desertion is the fault of the "child", and helps them to "appreciate their dependence" on the deserter. One is powerfully reminded of the kind of relationships in which a powerful abuser fails to offer consistent love and support, but then blames the victim for their abuse. It's not coincidental that the Catholic Church is the single largest child abuse organisation in history.
The reply to Isaiah's reflections on wickedness in "thou art a God that hidest thyself" is God Himself declaring plainly "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth" (Isaiah 45). In context, what we see in Isaiah's discourse is the irrationality of wickedness which obscures God from the sinner. Moses notes the same in Genesis with Adam saying "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself" (Genesis 3). Man hides from God, not the other way around.
Make sure you read Dumsday and Crummet on divine hiddenness. Also check out Dale Glover’s Real Seekers channel where he just started a series on the argument.
*EXPECTATION* - The intellectual side of Christianity addressing real problems. *REALITY* - Fluffy feel good video for believers never addressing the actual problem.
The problem is addressed: God’s hiddeness allows for the goodness of helping each other grow to seek God through community, and to exhibit our intellectual capacities
@@RadicOmega You're close: The Flying Spaghetti's Monsters hiddenness allows for the goodness of helping each other grow to seek the Flying Spaghetti Monster through community, and to exhibit our intellectual capacities I hope you notice how this DOES NOT fix the problem. This is just feel good nothingness fluff.
@@malirk doesn’t your rebuttal fail to attack the problem? Divine hiddenness could apply to other belief in deities could it not? This doesn’t refute the argument. It more just shows other faiths could be in similar situations?
"Divine" hiddeness is just wickedness. If he exists he is the greatest deciever there ever was, purposely getting people to not believe just to torment them even more.
Watched this twice to better digest. Appreciate it includes spiritual abuse from toxic churches. Ex-cult members are prone to deconvert especially if such common arguments from skeptics are left unanswered. Keep it up bro 🙏👍
What important take aways did you get? I didn't get much from this... it seems he takes more jabs at non-believers than addressing the problem of hiddenness.
@@malirk Nothing much new to me. But the video may help others who are just starting out studying this problem. It's not just poking at unbelievers really. In a believers point of view, hiddenness is temporal. Times of hiddenness is Biblical, example Joseph. It even promotes better relationship with God. Psychologically, it makes sense to me as absence makes the heart grow fonder. The video hints on the proper basicality of the belief in God through inner witness of the Holy Spirit without really diving into it. For unbelievers who have the disposition to hate God even more if God makes his existence undeniably more evident, it is probable that the best thing God can do is to remain hidden from him. Why would God force anyone to believe that He exist if it will just result in that person to hate God? Isn't it that God wants to have a loving relationship with Him? Not just to simply believe that He exist? For the spiritual abuse caused by toxic leadership, Cameron suggested that instead of doubting God, we survivors should be be more intellectually engaged, follow where the evidence leads, to draw closer to God. Personally this is what happened to me. To unlearn the distorted image of the Christian God taught by former abusive group, I had to re-study Christianity and the Bible by myself, apply proper exegesis, no more outsourcing it to one narcissistic preacher. To make sure that my core beliefs are sound (e.g. existence of God) , I studied apologetics, systematic Christian theology, philosophy ... Which were all prohibited when I was in the cult (information control BITE Model). If I was never in a cult, would I have taken such effort? I don't know, but what I do know is that the spiritual abuse I experienced in the cult triggered me to study theism and re-study Christianity. The pain and the hate fueled my studies and eventually led to spiritual recovery, forgiveness and intellectual satisfaction.
@@malirk evident "to me"? Well through the inner witness of the Holy Spirit as a properly basic belief, on top of reasons, arguments and evidences to show "to other people" that God exist.
@@wisdomdesignedlife The inner witness of the universe as a properly basic belief to me shows that it is all that exists. Arghhh pressup. Cam - Seriously, is this the best there is for apologetics? Pressup?
It's really hard to continue the belief but you really can't deny the sound argument. And so at the end it just comes to saying "i surrender" or "I will never yield."
I thought about this recently and my first conclusion is that God’s hiddenness is a skill issue of the seeker. If you don’t have the desire to achieve the necessary skill level to find him, that is isn’t a sign that God is too difficult to find.
*Sigh I predicted that you would misrepresent the Argument from Divine Hiddenness, and would you look at that, apparently I'm a prophet. Granted, there is no single Argument from Divine Hiddenness, but they are a collection of related arguments and logic trees, but still, none of them are: "Believers often lack a sense of guidance from God when it comes to important decisions, don't get what they request from God, and lack a sense of God's presence in difficult times." The Argument from Divine Hiddenness is, VERY broadly, a simple syllogism: 1. "If proposed god X, with of their supposed attributes, existed, we would expect to see Y." 2. "We do not see Y." 3. "Therefore, proposed god X appears to be hiding or nonexistent." Or even more broadly, we do not see any evidence for any god(s). Period. Also, "Even if we experience Hiddenness, WE SHOULD DOUBLE DOWN HARDER" isn't the slam-dunk logical conclusion you seem to think it is, Cam.
As a Catholic fan of your content, I have found Lectio Divina a great way to aid with alleviating Divine hiddenness. Great ancient way to mediate and contemplate the Holy Scriptures.
A relationship w/ God is a contradiction. You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't communicate with you in any meaningful way. An omnipotent creature would be able to communicate with every single person on the planet simultaneously, with ease, but it doesn't. As soon as someone says, "you just have to have faith", their whole argument completely breaks down.
Nice vid. Unfortunately, weirdly it doesn't address the actual argument from divine hiddennes at all. In simplest of terms Premise 1. All loving God wants as many people to believe in him as possible. Premise 2. All knowing God knows sufficient evidence for non-reasisting person to believe. Premise 3. All powerful God has the means to deliver sufficient evidence to all non resisting non-beleivers. Premise 4 (definition): non resisting non believer would convert on receiving sufficient evidence. Premise 5: at least one non resisting non-believer exist. Conclusion: Either: God doesn't want to maximise amount of people in heaven (not all loving) Or God isn't aware of sufficient evidence for at least one personal conversion (not all knowing) Or God is unable to deliver evidence for at least one personal conversion (not all powerful) Or No non resistant non believers exist. This video doesn't address validity, soundness nor any premises of the argument. (or implicitly endorses conclusion that there are no reasonable unbelievers. Which is ludicrous.)
Or.. God gives opportunities to enter into a relationship with him post-death. You should lay out all the options available before considering them in turn. This ‘post-mortem salvific opportunities’ option is quite interesting to delve into. Someone could also critique the assumptions that someone requires a belief to enter into a relationship with God.
@@calebp6114 I agree. This is mostly attack on "current understanding of mainstream christianity" than on theism in general. Very good points my good maite.
@@jokinghazard4022 I guess, I have no argument against your conclusion (in regards to this argument). You don't accept premise 1, and even if you did you simply accept "the last or" within conclusion. Not to dwell too long on that, but I think the belief that there are no non-resisting non-believers is so ridiculous that it's a bible contradiction on it's own (contradiction with reality to be precise). I mean, I'm directly aware that I would become a theist given good enough evidence. That's not a belief. That's awareness (I would know that even being a brain in a jar) So while sadly I cannot prove it to you, I know for a fact that this particular biblical statement is just factually false
@@KillmanPit Simple, devastating rebuttal: God has provided sufficient evidence to believe he exists and anyone who doesn't is wrong. In your case, your standard for "good enough evidence" is just wrong. God has provided good enough evidence, so it's your fault for not believing. So long as it is even possible for this to be true, the argument from Divine Hiddenness fails.
@@TamerSpoon3 Not really a rebuttal. It just means that no non-resistant non believers exist. You say evidence is provided. I say it's insufficient for me. You say that Im resistant to truth. Ok. The argument doesn't fail you just seem to be ok stating that there are no no-resistant non believers. Which is consistent within argument. But so unbeleivably laughably untrue that it barely needs refutation. But just quickly. I'm directly aware of the state of my mind. I know that I would believe given strong enough evidence (I can give you example evidence if you want). So I'm directly aware of you being wrong. It doesn't mean I will convince you. It's just that I can sit here with my direct awareness (not belief: awareness) of you being wrong.
I wish Christians would quit using the idea of "relationship" with God. By any normal definition, relationship involves at least semiregular two-way communication between two beings. I guess I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never experienced any communication with God. There is no relationship with God, at least not in any normal sense of the word. As a Christian, this has been maybe the single most difficulty aspect to get around.
I was a Christian for 50 years. Born again in 1978. If I’m going to be honest, I never had any god communicate with me. Ever. I convinced myself I had a relationship…but it was all me.
When listening on my phone, there were a couple places where your narration dropped below the level of the music, and without the subtitles I wouldn't have been able to pick it up. Trying to come up with more constructive feedback, but that's all I've got right now.
Was going to comment but found yours here. There are some spots throughout the video where the music was making it challenging to hear the narration. Particularly in the last few minutes. Otherwise, fantastic work!
... then it's because he loves me and he's going to send me to the eternal roaster, as I wasn't one of those chosen by him a long long time ago, since before the world existed...
Honest question, as a Christian, do you feel you have to keep coming up with excuses for God? Sometimes I feel belief in any God is like a girl that has to keep making excuses for her alcoholic boyfriend. Why he's not here or why he doesn't do that or whatever...if that makes sense. Ex. He allows evil bc..., he's always hiding bc..., he doesn't answer prayers bc... etc. Just seems like alot of excuses we have to make up in order to hsvr a tiny sliver of hope that he even exists. Great video by the way :)
You don’t have to make excuses. All the answers we need are in the word of God, the Bible. You could encourage others to search the scriptures for answers and, if they really care, they will look into it for themselves. :)
Not so much excuses but more like reasons. God's last covenant with humanity was the path for redemption laid out through Jesus. No more words or actions are needed.
EVERY hour Capturing Christian CA$H comes by to Like and Heart all the "amazing" and "awesome" comments. Never to reply to real questioning comments. LOL
I have come to expect videos of far greater intellectual quality and engagement from CC and Cameron than that which is offered here. There seems no attempt to actually engage with the problem of divine hiddeness whatsoever, instead, this video seems constructed to offer reassurance to doubting Christians, not engage seriously with one of the best observations/arguements against theism. Disappointing Cameron.
The problem is, a Muslim could make this exact same argument and it would also work for them. What kind of parent watches on as their child is deceived, and then proceeds to punish them eternally for being deceived? This god is a monster.
This was a great video!! Love the animation. I hope more are coming. One thing though- you have way too many friends with cool accents to not get them to narrate for you. Matt Fradd, Justin Brierly, Alex O’Conner when he reverts back to Christianity- either way lol 😂. Scott Haun would also be a good narrator voice. I like listening to you- just thinking about how to get more people tuning in. Great job with the production and the presuppositional response to a difficult problem.
@@hannavanderberg1673 not trying to throw shade- just a suggestion. I love CC and drink coffee from a BTW Christianity is True mug. Cam’s voice is great- just trying to add an extra element to the animated videos. Everyone likes a good collaboration
So how was the problem of divine hiddenness dealt with exactly? When i was a Christian I was told all the time that god wanted to have a relationship with me. It takes two beings to have a relationship. I don't see a difference between a god that doesn't exist and a god who can't make his presence known. You nailed it when you brought up parents and children Cam, maybe you need to think a harder about that. What's more beneficial to your children? Being there for them or abandoning them? I think the answer is rather obvious, so why does god get a pass. This is just one of the many plot holes in Christian theology.
You bring up a good point. I, too, was wondering the same thing. However, the issue is not reason to abandon faith in God. There are some important biblical issues not mentioned here. First is the sinfulness of man versus the holiness of God. The Bible says that our sins separate us from Him. Even Christians, though redeemed, live in sinful flesh. One of the great incomprehensible events in the Bible is when Jesus was separated from the Father on the cross. Jesus and the Father had intimate fellowship for eternity, but when the sins of mankind were placed on Christ, even He was separated for a time from the Father. This is why He cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The Bible also says that if any human were to look at God (in His full presence and manifestation), we would die. When Adam and Eve were first created, we are told that they walked with God in the Garden of Eden. After their sin, they hid from God. This is the normal state of fallen man. You call this a "plot hole." It is not a "plot hole." It is simply a perceived difficulty. I can't speak for every Christian. I can only speak for myself. I have been a Christian since I was 4. I am now 69. My relationship with God has gone through many different periods. I have been through long periods where God was VERY present and active in my daily life. I have seen and experienced wondrous things and had many spiritual visitations by my God. I have been healed. I have seen others healed. I have cast out demons and seen the vast power of the name of Christ to conquer pure evil. I even had a couple of visitations from angelic messengers. I have had many prayers answered. One event of note was when I was with a friend at the beach. We had been walking along the beach talking for some time. When we returned to my friend's car, he realized that he didn't have his keys. We began looking for them. We looked all around and under the car and all around the parking lot. We retraced our steps and looked through the sand where we had walked--all to no avail. We returned to the car and looked under and around the car again. No keys. Finally, I said that we needed to pray. So we bowed our heads and closed our eyes and prayed. When we opened our eyes, the keys were right at our feet on the asphalt next to the car door. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that those keys were not there before we prayed, but they were there in plain sight after we prayed. I had many such experiences. But I have also been through many, often lengthy, times when God seemed distant and silent and when few of my prayers seemed to be heard. I am currently in such a time. Those times have sorely tried my faith. But in my heart of hearts, I know God is there. I know He raised Christ from the dead. I know there is a God. I know He loves me, even when it seems like He has left me. The memories of the times of miraculous and intimate experience with God help me stay on the path. The fact is that God MUST exist. In spite of His "hiddenness," He is real. The alternative is unthinkable and untenable in every way. The way of Christ is the ONLY way that offers true hope. Without God, we have nothing but death and oblivion for a future. Destitute nothingness is the only alternative. Life is without meaning or hope outside of Christ. This I believe; This I know with every fiber of my being. In Christ is hope. Without Christ, there is no hope, only illusion.
I really don't understand how he dealt with the problem here. He just ends with it should make people believe more! What in the world... this video does not intellectually make sense. God's hidden Believe in God more!
@@malirk I agree that he did not actually deal with the problem adequately. However, that fact does not make God not exist. The apparent hiddenness of God is not evidence that He does not exist. In fact, logically, it is impossible to show evidence that God does not exist.
I think one of the things we are forgetting from the video is that many Christians who have felt the presence of God and experienced his love, find themselves suddenly all alone unable to feel God, as if he disappeared or withdrew himself from their lives altogether. But lest we forget, he then suddenly reappears to them in fresh and powerful ways. So it's not as if Christians are believing in a God they've never personally known, but that there is a temporary island experience which concludes with a fresh new and even more powerful witness of God.
The hiddenness of God should help us grow intellectually and morally to help others better know God? What?!!?!? 1 - God is hidden from us. This means we can't show that God exists in some observable way to others. 2 - Let's get others to worship God. Why in the world would you convince others to worship a God you can't show exists.
I think your comments are very logical. I have a thought for you to consider? The fact that you long( and are pissed at the opposite) for God to be a close God who you can truely know, closer than a real parent...doesnt that show that God exist cause where does this deep desire you have come from? You instinctively know how things should be! Then also, i suggest you watch the whole series "ontology of God" by paul young on youtube. And then watch everything you can find on paul young. I have a deeper need and "pissedness" than you..., and paul young helps me. "We only need grace for today, dont future trip"
@@malirk brain i would say our thoughts on God have many sources... religion, wounds, personal experience, UP bringing, lies of the enemy, shame, everything is designed to keep us far from God. But i think it is the biggest illusion and delusion we can face as humans. We are far from God. (Read acts 17:27-28) and watch that series from paul young. If it bores you, you can scream at me later or dont watch it. Also tuning into God (brad jerzak) changing the narrative.
My innitial point was just you intinctively know if there is a God he must be kind, warm, close and communicative for you to love Him. These desires are from the divine. You cant work it up. You are made in His image. You are reflecting Him.
@@hannavanderberg1673 I imagine you don't know Brian personally. What if he is a serial killer? You are not arguing the issue Brian presented, it looks like your are just throwing words without any context and mixing it with a little bit of touching words such as kindness, love and whatever just to convince him that god exists (talking about the christian one).
*BIGGEST STRAWMAN EVER* - Cameron compares parents not being around to the hiddenness of God. What is this? Your parents not being around to comfort you when you fall is not "Hiddenness" of your parents. Cam might as well believe that when he closes his eyes, the whole world is now hidden from him!
@@johnmakovec5698 don't you think it's better to have a textbook which can be preserved for millenniums and be revisited regularly instead of just a one time apparition?
Praying for Time Song by George Michael Oh-oh, yeah Mmm To-do-do, oh-oh These are the days of the open hand They will not be the last Look around now These are the days of the beggars and the choosers This is the year of the hungry man Whose place is in the past Hand in hand with ignorance And legitimate excuses The rich declare themselves poor And most of us are not sure If we have too much but we'll take our chances 'Cause God's stopped keeping score I guess somewhere along the way He must have let us all out to play Turned His back and all God's children Crept out the back door And it's hard to love There's so much to hate Hanging on to hope When there is no hope to speak of And the wounded skies above Say it's much, too much, too late Well, maybe we should all be praying for time To-do-do, oh-oh Mmm, whoa-whoa, yeah These are the days of the empty hand Oh, you hold on to what you can And charity is a coat you wear twice a year This is the year of the guilty man Your television takes a stand And you find that what was over there is over here So you scream from behind your door Say what's mine is mine and not yours I may have too much but I'll take my chances 'Cause God's stopped keeping score And you cling to the things they sold you Did you cover your eyes when they told you That he can't come back 'cause he has no children To come back for? It's hard to love There's so much to hate Hanging on to hope When there is no hope to speak of And the wounded skies above Say it's much too late So maybe we should all be praying for time To-do-do Oh-oh, yeah Source: Musixmatch Songwriters: George Michael
If there really was an all knowing, all loving entity that created everything then we would know it existed. There would be no need for faith or having to refer to old myths and legends. It would be demonstrable.
If a claim entails demands which are not met, then the claim is a failure. Consider that IF someone claimed that there was a rain storm the whole day yesterday, but not a shred of evidence could be found to support the claim? It is then reasonable to conclude that the claim is false. This simple point can be applied to anything. It is on this basis that God claims can be considered falsehoods. If you are loving to all, you demonstrate loving to all in your actions. If you are knowledgeable, then you present that knowledge but at the very least one doesn't present falsehoods. If you are all-powerful, you don't need proxies. If you want belief, you would make sure that there was a basis for belief as well as making sure that there are cognitive capacities for such. Thus, there should never be people who are cognitively incapable. Claim Failure = No God What is the claim that is a failure? God is often proffered as at least an all-good all-knowing all-powerful entity which has a desire for belief. This claim has a demand of action with regard to addressing whatever is not good as well as making sure that there is reason for belief (and the capacity for belief) and the claim of being all-powerful and all-knowing denotes that there is capacity to fulfill such a desire and all that entails. However, it is the case that such is a failure when such shouldn't be the case given the claim. Here are some notable issues. 1. We have people who reject the claim outright due to the moral failure in both the textual material being claimed as well as what is observed of reality. The very idea of a supposed all-good all-powerful entity allowing the horrors that are on full display regularly is a massive failure for the claim. Do we label voyeurs of atrocities that they could stop - good? No. The very idea of just watching without addressing such if one can is repugnant to most. The very fact that it isn't all given the understanding of various cognitive capacities is itself another dismissal of God claims, since we cannot control the capacities that we have, but given the power entailed in the claim - a supposed God could address such; and the fact that such isn't addressed is simply another failure. God is often referenced as a loving parent, but loving parents wouldn't let their children die of cancer. Thus on multiple levels the claim of an all-loving all-powerful entity is a falsehood. 2. We have atheists who reject the claim due to the various falsehoods in the religious texts being claimed as being from God. Thus, if there were a God concerned about belief, then it is rational to expect that such would be addressed...and yet nothing. The very idea of there being atheists is itself an absurdity in the face of the claim, since there should be ample evidence as well as cognitive capacity as well as emotional agreeableness for the idea, but this is not the case. Various God depictions are so horrific as to cause immediate rejection of the idea, since there is no reconciling the horror with the idea of anything loving of the power being claimed. The various rationalizations that are often done given the horror show observed resonates as grotesque. to such a degree that cognitive and emotional capacities are questioned. 3. We have believers with all sorts of different God claims such that it is clear that they do not all hold the same God claim. The fact of this parade of different God claims which is reviewable throughout all of written history is sufficient by itself to denote God claims as mythological. This actually gets worse when one reviews the details as to how theological claims morph and/or form new theological notions. Christianity demonstrates this with every point of conflict of belief shown in that one category of religions. 4. Moral adjudications can be corrupted by belief. Consider that there are believers can denote the mass killing of babies as a great good. The very idea that belief can be so warping as to think such an horror could be considered good given the assault on well being and the suffering entailed would seem unconscionable - and yet it occurs in the name of God. One would think that IF there were God any atrocities being claimed would be addressed, since such is an assault to belief which demand redress, but there is no redress. We have instead people rationalizing horrors of all sorts in the name of God. 5. Believers often posit God as the most knowledgeable entity in existence. Thus, there is the idea of competence given the claim of being all-knowing and all-powerful such that ANY material which is claimed as being from such should not entail ANY falsehoods. However, the material is such that it reasonable to classify such material as being mythological, thus being another failure of the claim being demonstrated. 6. We have people claiming to speak for God with a spew of falsehoods or vapid commentary resulting in an immediate assault to the idea that there has been such a communication. 7. There are many who have claimed to have had an experience from God, however, the fact of such not being provided to all is sufficient to dismiss the claim as false, since all show have the experience IF that is what is required for belief given the claim entails that God desires belief. I suppose one could rationalize every issue that I could cite, but when will the rationalizations stop and the acceptance of the issues and associated implications be accepted? Any excuse which is in conflict with what is understood, automatically demands evidence that what is being presented is actually the case. Thus, given any excuse which cannot be shown to be the case, the excuse is dismissed as assertion. --- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism ruclips.net/video/jJRy3Kl_z5E/видео.html (Dragon in My Garage) mondoweiss.net/2015/12/forgotten-society-psychologist/
So, because God doesn't seem to be there, we should take it as a message to invest more into faith... instead of at least acknowledging that this is the same outcome we would expect if God didn't actually interact with our world in any way or simply didn't exist at all... Also, on the subject of people who would reject your God even if he did exist, that's kinda what happens when people look at all of the things your God is supposedly responsible for without the rose-colored glasses of religion to affect them. *At best,* he appears to be a manipulative, petty and cruel monster who doesn't even value his own flesh and blood since he offered him up as an unneeded sacrifice, and who has a body count so high it makes all of the *real* terrible monsters throughout history jealous.
As a Christian who has received almost everything asked of God, I can assure you it’s not necessarily a good thing. If God knows what is best for you and you cry out for something else, then you’re not receiving the best thing He has for your life. Do you then want God to give it to you? I have learned to stop asking God for things unless I’m sure it’s completely in love. Be careful what you ask for.
@@malirk 1. Are you asking for a list? 2. If you searched for years and couldn’t find what you were looking for or needed something crucial in a short period of time and had no way of getting it… like a 1 in billion shot…but then begged a friend to help you and it showed up on your doorstep. Would you then pretend that by coincidence it just so happen to land on your doorstep? What would be the most likely scenario, that you’re SO lucky that you just happen to hit 1 in a billion shot multiple times soon after you asked your friend for help OR is it more likely your friend actually helped you out in getting it?
@@defiance1790 I have no idea what happened... can you more specifically explain the story and how you knew it was God. I failed to understand what you wrote.
Sometimes God “hides” Himself from us to test our faith... can we still hold on to what we know to be true, even though we can’t feel it at the moment (often times in difficult situations)? I want to add that no matter how disconnected you feel from God (or God from you), He’s always there. He IS Faithful! For 10 years I was in darkness, could not feel the Presence of God anymore, I even became agnostic; until suddenly God revealed His Glorious Presence through the Holy Spirit in one instant that changed my entire life. My whole darkened heart was filled with Spiritual Light, Life and Love coming from God. I knew then He had been preparing me for that moment, in all those years of spiritual slumber and brokenness. He had never abandoned me for one instant, even though it felt like it. 🙏🏻💖
"Hiddenness improves their relationship with God". Circular reasoning. It assumes that which it's trying to prove. In general, the problem of hiddenness is not resolved. If God wants to be known, he's failing at it.
What do you make of these pertinent questions? From the book … The Arrogance of Faith, by Forrest G. Wood ... My faith serves me and yours serves you, the Indian seemed to be saying. Why should anyone want to interfere with that? Besides, if Christianity is for everyone, why was it not from the beginning revealed to everyone? Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?" -- Annie Dillard, 'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek'
I thought this video would be good but it's just big strawman and red herring fallacy on divine hiddenness arguments against God's *EXISTENCE* Btw animation is good
I appreciate the time and effort this video must have required, but the majority of these explanations essentially amount to “God works in mysterious ways.” Obviously this answer is not acceptable to atheists, and is acceptable to even the most devoted Christians for only so long.
This is just theist word salad. Just kidding. I think this was really well done Cameron! You should make more of these to be honest. While the apologetics community loves digging into the more academic side of things, I think animated videos like this, giving the average person a helpful perspective on hard topics is needed.
I think it is mostly theist word salad. The suggestion that God could be hidden because some non-believers say they wouldn't worship him if they realised he exists is baffling to me.
@@ExploringReality What could I say to that statement that would be meaningful or 'holds evidential value'? It's just a personal take on an unsupported guess from Cameron regarding God's potential motivations.
@@Apanblod It's an objection to the foundation of the hiddenness argument. God is not merely interested in people knowing THAT he exists, but in personal relationships. It's not even unexpected that people wouldn't worship God if they knew he existed, Christopher Hitchens et al. have come right out and said it. Even within Christianity, demons certainly know God exists but they don't worship him. The entire argument is refuted by the possibility that non-believers are either misevaluating or mistaken about the evidence for God's existence. The atheist basically has to prove that such a situation is impossible, after all, that is what they mean by a non-resistant non-believer. They have to prove that such a person cannot be mistaken about the sufficiency of the evidence.
What a load of crap. (A) For all the examples pointed to in the Bible of God’s hidden nature, you can also find as many examples of accounts of God making his presence abundantly clear through divine miracles; (B) this is guy is arguing in bad faith when he says that the performance of a clear, unambiguous miracle by God (e.g., parting of the sea, manna from heavens) would not cause non-believers to believe in God. There are so many people who want to believe but don’t because there is not sufficient evidence of God’s existence.
@@CapturingChristianity It's TELLLING that you have time for compliments and hearting every positive "well done" comment but no time for the main objections. LOL
"Be not deceived, Wormwood, our cause is never more in jeopardy than when a human, no longer desiring but still intending to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe in which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys." C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
It seems like this answers some cases of hiddenness however I'm still a little unclear about the non-resistant non-believer case. In the video you say "what about non-believers who don't fit this mold?" then you go on to talk about the Christian community sometimes failing to do good but that seems to avoid the question of why God is hidden from non-resistant non-believers. You talk about how God knows more than us so his actions may seem strange but that could be said about anyone who doesn't appear to be God. Do any actions count against someone being God? If so, I think being hidden is one of them since that is something I would not expect a God who wants a relationship to do.
@@jokinghazard4022 An example of a non-resistant non-believer would be someone who lives in a secluded area and has never heard of Jesus or someone born 10,000 years ago.
@@jokinghazard4022 So you are saying that it is literally impossible for anyone to be non-resistant? Is there any slight chance that you could be mistaken about that?
Great video.....a barrage of excuses as to why the invisible man in the sky with magic powers doesn't actually pop out of the sky and interact with the real world like he does in the magical fairy tale holy book...great work
okay then explain how the brain creates consciousness and the universe magically created itself out of nothing without a creator. I'll wait. Especially with the fairy tale of life coming out of primordial soup
@@soylatte1288 Skeptics don't have to have an explanation for any of those things. They can say "I don't know", unlike theists, who need to have a reason for why those things are the way they are.
@@malirk Well, for one, the story of Abram teaches that the God will follow through with His promises. Abram didn't have to exist historically in order for this lesson to be taught.
@@malirk That's a good question. I don't know. A quick look at Wikipedia seems to suggest that the story didn't happen historically, but I'm really not qualified to say.
You’re entire RUclips channel has been a great blessing as a ministry, but this is a great example of utilizing your strengths with apologetics towards evangelism. Great work!
You don’t really touch on the argument at all. I think going over the hiddenness argument more critically would have benefited not only the viewer, but also your response in narrowing what exactly is at issue.
Not to detract but to add to your lovely video I also love imbeggars videos here on RUclips spoiler alert though he’s a Catholic but I spose beggars can’t be choosers thank you again seriously it’s a profound reason why people give up and can hang on endlessly in a weird atheistic/agnostic painful limbo God have mercy on us all
Christian believers are hidden in Jesus - from the wrath of God. In our sinful flesh God must hide himself from ourselves, but he did not leave us orphans. Pursue the Holy Spirit through purity and trust.
There is NO god of ANY holy book. ALL gods are strictly human manufactured fiction. Christianity, Islam, Judaism are an absurdity full of hate and ignorance. god is fiction in EVERY religion, culture, and language, everywhere, every second of every day, 365. It is just an excuse to engage in ordained hate and othering. Religion is no solution for the requirements of humanity in the 21st century. The sooner humanity understands this, the sooner we can get to work in unison for humanity actual. Non-belief is JUSTIFIED! ALL evidence and rules of evidence point to ZERO gods, the divinity of Jesus is fiction likewise that of Mohammed likewise Moses...etc etc for all religions for many thousands of years, ALL fiction. Your religion is false just as much as you believe the next religion across the globe is false, you don't get to be right all by yourself, instead, YOU and EVERYONE else's religion are wrong. Human created god(s). No such thing as mystics or angels or devils.
As an atheist, I would love to get to know God, but all I've found are people who claim to speak for him and ancient writings from people who claimed to speak for him. When you actually find the guy, let me know, but I have a feeling that I'm going to be waiting awhile on that one.
As an agnostic, my biggest issues with religion are definitely hiddeness, as well as the whole temptation thing. If you put a bowl of food infront of a starving person, dont be surprised if they eat it regardless of what you tell them. If God wanted us to succeed maybe he shouldn't place every possible hurdle in our way. I've been told that God is love and logic itself, yet I see evidence of neither. An all-loving being wouldn't delight in the suffering of those he claims to love.
I was atheist 3 months ago, had a near death experience and saw hell, that's what moved me to be Christian, but I still don't understand the Bible or why hell would even exist and be that bad.
@@tonythegreat4275 LoL, man. You think you saw a whatever it is that you define as “Hell”. Weird.
@@AbandonedVoid don't you know that's a personal experience for Christians. If you ask them, it's like an intense emotional/spiritual feeling
@@tonythegreat4275 I don't believe in the popular, pagan-inspired idea of gehenna
Amazing, dude!
You too!
Pints,
I've noticed a trend in "intellectual" religious circles where the objective isn't to give a strong argument for God but to basically have a meta-discussion about what is evidence and how can we even evaluate the world around us without a fundamental ultimate. This is a huge change from what I remember growing up where people tried to witness to you.
With all that said.. What convinces you God exists?
@@malirk dude if you’re trying to find evidence for God then you’re not gonna find it in a RUclips comment section.
@@sneakysnake2330 I was hoping Pints would reply.
My hope was misplaced on Pints.
A god who chooses to be invisible/undetectable is a god who encourages disbelief
Nature and creation(have you seen bunnies?), human's eternal desire and longing to know God, peoples love and devotion for God(like paul young), the bible...
I think we have hints.
@@hannavanderberg1673 that’s just personal perception. Still no god
@@Devious_Dave i guess if you are e
willing to admit you do have a longing, its a good start. From there you will find out very soon what is real and what is not.
@@reality1958 You ever considered that you watching this video and responding to comments is God's method of communication. As a Christian I used to avoid conversing with atheists, until I realized that perhaps they were there for a reason and I should talk with them.
@@Roescoe No. My reasons are quite down to earth
While Divine Hiddenness doesn't refute God's existence, it does show that if God exists, there must be things more important to Him than propositional belief in Him. I think that has important implications for theology and religious practice, in particular for evangelism. (I feel like the video agrees implicitly to this, but doesn't really state it outright.)
This guy gets it!
if any other proposed entity are divinely hidden, Christians would immediately use that to say that the entity doesn't exists.
Yeah that something else you refer to is the ability to choose, even if that means you choose not to believe.
@@YourEverdayGM I don't think its a choice.
@@iiddrrii6051it is a choice
Hiddenness is a huge problem. It's unreasonable to believe you can have a personal relationship with someone who never reciprocates.
This is literally the reason I gave up on religion. It all sounds a lot like an abusive/manipulative relationship, rather than a God who is love itself. All I ever asked of him was to let me know if he was there or not and I got nothing, so logic tells me that's my answer. An absent father isn't worthy of worship as far as I can tell.
@@frozenphoenix9502, @scott Not seein God scares me the most n makes me question things the most, though I may have seen him but I'm unsure if I was fully awake n not dreaming at the time.
Of course, i can't really talk to people about it because i noticed people, especially online, have a VERY limited, flawed n biased understanding of all the major religions, on what science says about Design, etc n worse, most are VERY CLOSED MINDED n aren't interested in coming to a more full, accurate, unbiased understanding of what u or your evidence, n truth says, regardless of their religious or non religious beliefs, so i just control my bias, n do an insane amount of research on everything i said in this comment, n avoid arguing unless some1 is genuinely interested in the evidence.
I still think absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, n I think because of fine tuning, n because i noticed these ancient scriptures called the 5 Vedas seem to be the source of all the major religions, sciences, math, accurate prophecy etc, that them sayin they were inspired by God, means God's probably real based on the totality of the evidence n logic, n I'm VERY confident we are not this body but some spiritual consciousness within, that lives on after the body fails, especially since science kinda confirmed that Vedic teaching too, n the Vedas explains why most people can't see God in this world, explains how some people can, n i doubt all those people seeing God are dishonest n delusional.
I suggest clicking the sub n bell icons on youtuber "Playitalready" for some epic upcoming vids on all the above, that's as good as it gets regarding less bias n more EVIDENCE n logic. his current, main vid n its description have some basically good info, in spite of it being some old school, 240p rushed, short vid lol.
You have to understand that it's not easy to face the people you're going to send to eternal torment.
@@frozenphoenix9502 how long where you following Christ for?
The false problem of hiddenness.
Note that the reply to Isaiah's reflection on wickedness in "thou art a God that hidest thyself" is God Himself declaring plainly "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth" (Isaiah 45). In context, what we see in Isaiah's discourse is the irrationality of wickedness which obscures God from the sinner. Moses notes the same in Genesis with Adam saying "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself" (Genesis 3). Man hides from God, not the other way around.
God knows that remaining hidden and forcing seekers to have faith that he exists is working against his stated intentions.
The excuses, tap dancing and rationalizing practiced by the faithful to avoid giving honest answers makes that very clear.
I believe the first statement is an assumption that holds a heavy burden of proof. From what I understand, there's a difference between believing that God exists and believing in God. The latter entails repentance and putting one's trust in him. So simply believing that God exists but not believing in him is no different than not believing that he exists (because it results in the same outcome). Moreover, if God knows that someone will not believe in him despite revealing himself (as was the case with Pharaoh and the Pharisees in the Bible for example), it then seems quite possible that it would be better to remain hidden to them as it would have better instrumentalisation value for bringing about God's plans. I also think that if God were to reveal himself blatantly to non-believers, it would be so overwhelming as to actually comprise the individuals free will.
But leaving the theodicies aside, I urge you today to seek Jesus and his forgiveness and salvation because he loves you more than you can imagine. As the Bible says:
"You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)
God bless you my friend
@@KD-eh3qo It's hard to "not believe" in something in front of you. So I consider that "not believe in him despite revealing himself" to be just a silly excuse. I have girlfriend (in Canada). And even if I would introduce herself to you, you would not believe she is my girlfriend...so....
The one who really needs people with faith are imaginary gods (or priests of those gods...). The true God would not need neither priests or holy book.
@@johnmakovec5698 It's important to reiterate the difference between 'believing that' something is true and 'believing in' something (which is to put one's trust in something or someone). One can believe that God exists without believing in Him as is/was the case with Satan, Pharaoh and the Pharisees in the Bible for example. In fact, there are many people who say that they will not become Christians even if Christianity is true. This is reflective of the book of Revelations which teaches that people on Earth will refuse to repent even after God makes himself known in judgement
I commend you for the humour in your example. But even if I didn't believe she was your girlfriend (I promise I would), that would be a case of me not 'believing that' it is true rather than a 'belief in'
I'm not entirely sure what the objection that true God wouldn't need priests or a holy book is suggesting. If you would like to clarify that, that would be helpful
@@KD-eh3qo Yes. It's different between belief in some hypothesis (god) or trust in someone.
@@johnmakovec5698 Agreed, and so the mere belief in the God hypothesis (i.e. that God exists) does not bring about salvation which would explain divine hiddeness
Even as an atheist, I admire Cameron's works and am still deeply interested in theism and trying to understand the sides that thiests take.
But when I heard him say "If you want to form a healthy relationship with somebody, doing something that causes them to resent and fight you, would be counterproductive".
I wasn't paying very close attention the 1st time I heard it, but automatically I thought he was referring to God and his actions. Then I realized he was referring to non-believers...
I think the way I initially reacted to this kind of shows to me that this reason for God's Hiddeness is pretty ironic.
It's funny how it seems that God is actually comitting these mistakes such as not establishing his existence, thereby forming a trusting and loving relation with his creations. Things such as the problem of evil and unfairness in the world also contribute to the growing community of people who choose not to believe in God and maybe even perhaps, resent him. Which is counter productive in trying to get more believers and helping more attain salvation.
To me, this video seems to be targeted at people who are already of Faith and it's just trying to get them to huff a big puff of copium towards their doubts and concerns. I don't really feel very convinced after watching this as to why this wouldn't be a good argument against Christianity but maybe someone can help clarify on this.
Again, no hate to Cameron and any religions. Just felt that this video wasn't particularly compelling.
The more you watch these Apologetics youtubers the clearer it will become to you: they are aimed at the already converted and doubters among them with the simple message: You are not foolish to believe these things. Oh they will have grand titles like "God can handle your doubt" and "Another MAJOR archeological discovery proves the Bible" but they are fluffed up ways to say The Bible is true because it says so and millions of others are with you - and all of them can't be foolish and thus, you aren't too. lol
Its because freewill world. most important thing is free will. But that also causes evil. there cant be genuine Love without free will..
Also for some reason faith is important.
Jam. 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
1Pet. 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ
@BigPig As you can see from the top critical comments of this video, it does NOT even address the problem of Divine Hiddenness. This RUclips "Apologetics" is for just a business. This is Click-baiting for Jesus. LOL
@Floss bun I thought he was referring to God at first too. I think that lends itself to the point that it can feel like God behaves this way. Or, this is an argument for why people wouldn't believe in God because he makes people feel he has set up his relationship and hiddeness this way, and therefore it would be cruel for a good God to be so confusingly and painfully withholding from those who we're told he wants to have a relationship with.
I still think it's a well-produced video and I get the overall point. It's a struggle to make sense of the world and existence. It seems the deeper the intellectual lengths I go, I find equal measures of clarity, confusion, and being haunted.
@@forthwith
I understand the critics from those seeking philosphical answers as this is what the channel has contained, even though the name Capturing Chritianity.
It started as philosophical but ended up engouraging brothers and sisters :)
Thanks for putting in the time and money to make this an evergreen video with quality scripting and animation!
All that for skeptical theism. Yes, I'd love to see Christians try that on Non Christians.
Could you elaborate?
@@alecbunting8116 It's hard to know where to begin to be honest. I guess let's start with the painfully obvious.
If a nonbeliever doesn't have direct evidence for God, due to his hiddenness, then saying "well God has a good reason for that" is begging the question. That would be like asking Carl Sagan about the invisible dragon living in his garage, and Sagan says "well you see, he wants to be found, but he has a good reason for him not revealing himself to you YET." Same energy. So just on a practical level, that justification is going to actively hurt a Christian in trying to talk to a Non Christian. Before, God might have just been incompetent. Trying to reveal himself but doing it wrong and the whole thing might have been a cosmic accident that the signals got crossed. But now? God might have good reason for hiding himself from you ON PURPOSE. And if that gets you into hell where you're burned and tortured forever, sucks to be you. Part of God's plan, cope and seethe about it. Can't see that winning any hearts and minds.
On the theoretical level, assuming you're talking to a Non Christian who actually cares about the philosophical arguments, this is going to run smack into Stephen Law's Pandora's Box objection. If God has good reason to hide himself from you, to the point where you may end up damned forever as a result, then God has good reason to do anything and everything up to that point. God could allow you to be deceived by your senses for example. Now Law's Pandora's Box objection is normally used in problems of evil, in which case the Christian says something like "I have an intuition that my senses are reliable and aren't deceiving me, and my intuition is assumed true unless it's defeated" (known as the phenomenal conservatism argument). The problem here is that the non believer too has an intuition that God is hidden and phenomenal conservatism is going to work both ways. The issue is that all the Christian can intuit is that God isn't allowing them to be deceived, but the non believer is intuiting a state which could put them in hell, which is far worse than being deceived, so this could actually serve as the defeater for the former intuition.
Skeptical theism is obnoxious on a good day, but for this argument it's exactly the last thing you want to try appealing to.
@@logos8312 wow. That was a lot. I appreciate the thoughtful reply. It was a very interesting read. I can see you care a lot about this stuff. I was unable to tell if you were Christian or not tho. So I don’t know what your solution would be to this problem of hiddenness. I think you provided some really good insight tho.
@@alecbunting8116 I'm glad it was helpful! To be clear I'm neither a Christian nor an Atheist. I'm kind of a non-religious Theist, but with caveats. Kind of hard to explain. I think the best way to solve the problem is to admit that you're going to have to admit to some uncomfortable things, but you do get a choice about which ones you admit. To see this, let's see some of the explicit problems with divine hiddenness:
1. Problem of evil / suffering. If God is powerful and has a sense of justice, why isn't he helping people who legitimately cannot help themselves? Suppose, for example, that God intervenes in 10% of murders / rapes / etc. at random. Infrequent enough so that people exercise their free will, but frequent enough that he's, well, not hidden.
2. Problem of salvation. If a relationship with God is necessary for salvation, then people who experience God's being absent (even believers who really try to have a relationship with God, but eventually lose their faith) then a lot of people may end up damned due to hiddenness.
Here are some solutions available for addressing these problems:
A. Moral Subjectivity. If God isn't "good" by some standard aside from his own subjective standard, then God is under no moral obligation to help anyone. At best, people who feel God hides himself from them may not be wrong, but rather than having some grand moral reason for this being the case, God just subjectively doesn't feel like talking to you.
The conclusion here isn't great, but it staves off Pandora's Box objections, since there is no "greater good" that God does counter intuitive things in service of. God just makes the rules, at face value, as we see them, and we can just straightforwardly interpret things accordingly. However, if damnation is still involved, then the unsettling conclusion that God is just damning you because he feels like it, subjectively, isn't going to be much better. This leads to...
B. Either universalism, or post death salvation. If being hidden during life isn't a huge worry then a lot of the problems go away. God subjectively made you, the world, etc. in such a way that you don't directly apprehend his presence during life? No big deal since he could have your back post death. How hilarious would it be if God puts you here just to run an experiment on you, how you act based on your experiences, etc. and then after you die, God kind of gives the report card and then you start some kind of soul therapy.
Surely some oddities might pop out of these accounts but the immediate problem of God "for some grand plan" just letting people burn in hell is blunted, and I'd argue that for Christianity that's the top priority, since I can't see anyone worshipping a God who might be so capricious.
The last problem is falsifiability (like Carl Sagan's invisible dragon). For me, I consider theism, first, to be a hypothesis about possible worlds, possibly grounding an account like modal collapse or modal realism. Because that's the scope of my theism, I'd predict that science would have a hard time "finding" God, since science aims to find all true propositions within a possible world, but isn't equipped to discuss any trans-world accounts.
The caveat to this is that God doesn't act "in" the world. If you believe that God does do this, say parting the red sea or other miracles, then the problem of "God acts in the world, but he doesn't want to do it when we set up controls to tease out God's actions from usual regularities" is going to be perennial, and I don't have any good ways of dealing with that.
I wish I had better advice, but this is a very thorny issue. If anyone definitively solves it, it would probably make world news in short order given how perennial a problem this is for many world religions. The upside is that because this problem is so difficult, it's not really "on you" or "on me" to solve. If you experience God, and hiddenness isn't a problem for you, then keep living your best life. Pray for intercession so God reveals himself to others, and pray for counseling to see if God reveals anything to your conscience that might assuage some of these concerns.
Otherwise, I suppose we might get the chance to ask him about this when we die. :)
@@logos8312 I’m serious when I say this, write a book. I’d buy it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It be awesome to know more about how you think on these things. You articulate your thoughts really well describing complex ideas and philosophies.
I think there is one major aspect of Divine Hiddenness that gets overlooked, and is overlooked here as well.
What about people that were non-resistant non-believers that found theism, but the wrong religion?
For example, when I went from anti-theist, to apatheist, to eventually non-resistant non-belief, I found my way to polytheism and not to Christianity.
How is this accounted for? As a polytheist, it makes sense that people might find different gods as there are many, but for the monotheist, especially for the Christians that believe in salvation through faith in Jesus, how do you account for non-resistant non-believers finding the 'wrong religion'?
Well a reply that could be seen as snarky is, that one might accept a religion which suits the person better than the demands of Christianity and therefore makes idols for himself to not have to meet those demands but still (an appearance of) spiritual fullfilment
Another reply might be only a different worded one, namely that the person fell for Satans deception.
@@TheVelvetTV_Riesenglied so god failed to equip this person with adequate discernment? real godly move, god
Christianity itself is an idol.
@@mattr.1887 I know you're an antitheist based on this baseless assertion.
Sorry to disappoint, but no.
4:19 is when a reason for expecting God to remain hidden is actually provided and it’s skeptical theism. I would strongly advise any theist against accepting skeptical theism. You‘ll be opening a skeptical Pandora’s box, see Stephen Law’s Pandora’s box objection.
If one adds that god is hidden to that god is not understandable, one must necessarily conclude that there is no reason to consider that god exists.
If he is hidden, he is not evident. With nothing to see, one must deduce. But if god is incomprehensible, nothing can be deduced.
Cameron: “God does this because it’s good for you.”
Anyone not a christian: “What about when what God does is harmful?”
Cameron: “Then its your fault.”
Well, if we assume that that the creator of the universe is pure love (as that is what we would want and that is what feels right) , then it’s not gods fault bad things happen.
It’s either our fault, someone else’s fault or it’s do with the way we are interpreting the event through our own pain that already exists inside us.
@@winterroadspokenword4681 if God is all loving but limited in power, sure. But if we add that God created and has some amount of logical control over the systems and laws of the universe, then we have the problem of evil.
For instance if god created a world where the sun causes cancer and didn’t tell us about that fact, we need a very compelling reason why that isn’t just pure evil on gods part.
@@jonathan4189 But the sun doesn’t cause cancer.
Our emotional condition does. Our skin is perfectly capable of regenerating. Science already knows this to be true.
So the issue is why does it sometimes fail? Well, we also already know that our emotional condition can guarantee that if you hold certain emotional conditions you’ll get certain illnesses. This has been known for thousands of years.
The problem is we don’t want to face our emotions. We don’t want to look at them. But these are sins in our soul.
They are out of harmony with love, so we would expect there are consequences of living out of harmony with law, surely?
God has designed the universe around love, but we have freewill to create fear and pain and grief and anger, and chose to hold them inside.
The universe is created that these emotions affect our environment, abs it has to be this way or we would never grow into responsible beings that understand how much impact our soul really has, by the time we’ve shed our physical and spiritual bodies.
@@jonathan4189 I want to further add that on a shorter time span, our intuition tells us we’ve had enough sun long before we get totally burnered.
I spend a lot of time in the sun abs don’t really use suncreams. I prefer shade.
When you’re in it a lot you really get to know when you’ve had enough. You just feel like you’re done being in the sun.
You may get a light glow as the skin begins to regenerate but no damage.
If we were more in tune with ourselves, and less driven by our own emotions out of harmony with love we would be even more sensitive to the amount of sun we’ve received.
So there isn’t this argument either that god didn’t tell us.
I guess another point again is that a personal connection with god is possible. God can and does show us things. The bible says clearly that we chose to refuse a relationship with god for whatever reason, and we still continue to do so.
So how can we blame god for the fact we aren’t hearing him?
The connection is possible, and I can even teach you how to do it if you wish!?
@@winterroadspokenword4681 if I hide a radioactive nuclear fuel rod in the basement of a building and reliy on people to use their own sense of radiation poisoning to know when to leave, have I shown myself to be the epitome of love?
If my excuse is that they need to ask me to tell them about the radioactivity, and I’ll only tell them if they tell me they love me *to my satisfaction* have I shown myself to be anything other than a terrorist or 007 style villain?
Keep in mind, I didn’t HAVE to put the fuel rod in the building. God didn’t HAVE to make the sun cause cancer.
Melanoma kills millions each year. You’re going to tell those people it’s because they weren’t born into the right religion so it’s their fault they orphan their children and die horribly?
You’re going to tell the people who get lost in the desert or have to work in the fields to feed their families that its their fault they didn’t stay in the shade? Would you also tell starving people to just eat cake?
This misrepresents the problem of divine hiddenness, though I appreciate the video. The argument is as follows:
' a loving God would ensure that there is no reasonable or inculpable nonbelief in his existence, since this belief is required for human beings to enter into a relationship with God, and since (according to theism) having such a relationship with creatures is a great good, and indeed is one of God’s most important goals. But, Schellenberg argues, since such nonbelief occurs among those capable of belief in God, theism should be rejected.'
There are multiple versions of the problem of divine hiddenness, although Schellenberg might be the most famous.
One interesting response to Schellenberg is to attack the premise ‘belief is required for a relationship with God.’ There is an interesting video critiquing that premise that was recently published in ‘The Analytic Christian’ YT channel.
@@calebp6114 Within Christian theology, belief is definitely required to have a relationship with God as there are multiple things required to believe to be saved/have a relationship with him.
@@jokinghazard4022 It isn't a biblical misunderstanding. It doesn't use the strongest and most common versions of the argument. The argument is as stated above.
There is no "inculpable nonbelief" in God's existence unless you literally don't believe for no reason. This argument is easily refuted by the fact that there could be sufficient evidence for God's existence and you're just wrong.
@@TamerSpoon3 There is reasonable nonbelief in God's existence. We have a well evidenced naturalistic explanation
Divine Hiddedness is not an argument against the exitance of God. But against the existence of the God of the bible.
Divine hiddenness wouldn't be that much of a problem if God was actually unable to show himself. But that would mean he is not all powerful.
Another huge problem is that Christians claim that God is a God that wants to have a personal relationship with EVERYONE. Yet he stays hidden, even from believers. When i was a Christian, I actively searched for him, every single day. He was the most important thing to me, yet he never showed to me. And I do not even mean, that he had to appear to me and talk in person, although that would have been cool. I just wanted to feel his presence and have a conversation, even if it was just in my head... and nothing. That was me for twenty years. If a father was like that, has all the time of the world yet decides to stay distant and hidden, to their children, he would be considered a bad parent.
But the worst part of it all, is that not believing in God is a sin big enough to warrant going to hell. If that weren't the case, then him being hidden wouldn't be that much of a problem.
But because not believing in God, somehow makes us deserve eternal suffering. Him being hidden, when he could just as easily show himself to us, means he is actively working against us. And that is not an action of an all-loving being.
If God was apathetic, not powerful enough and or evil. Then Divine hiddenness makes sense. And don't tell me, we can't expect to understand God.... If God truly care, he would at least attempt for us to understand him. He would be like a professor who just doesn't even try to explain what he teaches to you, but then fails you for not understanding.
The most insulting thing about this video is that it ignores that people like you exist and your existence and questions are valid and widespread.
Apologists only ever speak of the mystic’s darkness of the soul or spiritual dryness as if it inevitably and always results in a happy ending.
They somehow delude themselves into thinking it’s a 100% success rate despite the totality of reality showing them otherwise. And if you do show them it isn’t 100% success they blame the person who is searching but unable to find God.
Love the production value here. Looking forward to more videos like this.
I was just reading the book of Schellenberg on the hiddenness argument and was deeply thinking about it when I got the notification of your video. Really cool animations and great summary of the main objections (I think there are even some more)! 👌🏼
It's quite right to say that "A good parent...wouldn't let their children think that they were gone, leave them in the dark about what they wanted, or refuse to comfort them in their pain". This is indeed one of the challenges of Divine Hiddenness. The response here that "mystics" "often report" DH deepens their faith is small comfort; not only is this an unquantified and vague claim, it hardly works for anyone who doesn't qualify as a "mystic." Worse, the argument is developed to assert that the desertion is the fault of the "child", and helps them to "appreciate their dependence" on the deserter. One is powerfully reminded of the kind of relationships in which a powerful abuser fails to offer consistent love and support, but then blames the victim for their abuse. It's not coincidental that the Catholic Church is the single largest child abuse organisation in history.
Apologists can't admit that God's behavior is precisely what we would expect from something that doesn't exist.
What about the Gospels? and many other accounts of God's presence?
Our dogma makes no sense, and that shows it's true!
Yeah, no.
The reply to Isaiah's reflections on wickedness in "thou art a God that hidest thyself" is God Himself declaring plainly "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth" (Isaiah 45). In context, what we see in Isaiah's discourse is the irrationality of wickedness which obscures God from the sinner. Moses notes the same in Genesis with Adam saying "I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself" (Genesis 3). Man hides from God, not the other way around.
This is a cool video! It still leaves some questions unanswered, but that's alright. I have to remember to be patient in my pursuit of truth.
Totally. It left some things unanswered but that is OK.
Make sure you read Dumsday and Crummet on divine hiddenness. Also check out Dale Glover’s Real Seekers channel where he just started a series on the argument.
Same~
*EXPECTATION* - The intellectual side of Christianity addressing real problems.
*REALITY* - Fluffy feel good video for believers never addressing the actual problem.
Brian Stevens you really didn't have your mind changed by hearing Abraham had a kid?
@@BavidDigg Haha, I hope this is sarcasm.
The problem is addressed: God’s hiddeness allows for the goodness of helping each other grow to seek God through community, and to exhibit our intellectual capacities
@@RadicOmega You're close: The Flying Spaghetti's Monsters hiddenness allows for the goodness of helping each other grow to seek the Flying Spaghetti Monster through community, and to exhibit our intellectual capacities
I hope you notice how this DOES NOT fix the problem. This is just feel good nothingness fluff.
@@malirk doesn’t your rebuttal fail to attack the problem? Divine hiddenness could apply to other belief in deities could it not? This doesn’t refute the argument. It more just shows other faiths could be in similar situations?
"Divine" hiddeness is just wickedness. If he exists he is the greatest deciever there ever was, purposely getting people to not believe just to torment them even more.
Watched this twice to better digest. Appreciate it includes spiritual abuse from toxic churches. Ex-cult members are prone to deconvert especially if such common arguments from skeptics are left unanswered. Keep it up bro 🙏👍
What important take aways did you get? I didn't get much from this... it seems he takes more jabs at non-believers than addressing the problem of hiddenness.
@@malirk Nothing much new to me. But the video may help others who are just starting out studying this problem. It's not just poking at unbelievers really. In a believers point of view, hiddenness is temporal. Times of hiddenness is Biblical, example Joseph. It even promotes better relationship with God. Psychologically, it makes sense to me as absence makes the heart grow fonder. The video hints on the proper basicality of the belief in God through inner witness of the Holy Spirit without really diving into it.
For unbelievers who have the disposition to hate God even more if God makes his existence undeniably more evident, it is probable that the best thing God can do is to remain hidden from him. Why would God force anyone to believe that He exist if it will just result in that person to hate God? Isn't it that God wants to have a loving relationship with Him? Not just to simply believe that He exist?
For the spiritual abuse caused by toxic leadership, Cameron suggested that instead of doubting God, we survivors should be be more intellectually engaged, follow where the evidence leads, to draw closer to God. Personally this is what happened to me. To unlearn the distorted image of the Christian God taught by former abusive group, I had to re-study Christianity and the Bible by myself, apply proper exegesis, no more outsourcing it to one narcissistic preacher. To make sure that my core beliefs are sound (e.g. existence of God) , I studied apologetics, systematic Christian theology, philosophy ... Which were all prohibited when I was in the cult (information control BITE Model). If I was never in a cult, would I have taken such effort? I don't know, but what I do know is that the spiritual abuse I experienced in the cult triggered me to study theism and re-study Christianity. The pain and the hate fueled my studies and eventually led to spiritual recovery, forgiveness and intellectual satisfaction.
@@wisdomdesignedlife What is one way God is evident to you?
@@malirk evident "to me"? Well through the inner witness of the Holy Spirit as a properly basic belief, on top of reasons, arguments and evidences to show "to other people" that God exist.
@@wisdomdesignedlife The inner witness of the universe as a properly basic belief to me shows that it is all that exists.
Arghhh pressup.
Cam - Seriously, is this the best there is for apologetics? Pressup?
To hide god first needs to exist, let's not run before we can walk
It's really hard to continue the belief but you really can't deny the sound argument. And so at the end it just comes to saying "i surrender" or "I will never yield."
What sound argument was made?
Great job,bravo! Keep up the good work dearest Cameron. God bless everything that has your name
I thought about this recently and my first conclusion is that God’s hiddenness is a skill issue of the seeker. If you don’t have the desire to achieve the necessary skill level to find him, that is isn’t a sign that God is too difficult to find.
*Sigh
I predicted that you would misrepresent the Argument from Divine Hiddenness, and would you look at that, apparently I'm a prophet.
Granted, there is no single Argument from Divine Hiddenness, but they are a collection of related arguments and logic trees, but still, none of them are: "Believers often lack a sense of guidance from God when it comes to important decisions, don't get what they request from God, and lack a sense of God's presence in difficult times."
The Argument from Divine Hiddenness is, VERY broadly, a simple syllogism:
1. "If proposed god X, with of their supposed attributes, existed, we would expect to see Y."
2. "We do not see Y."
3. "Therefore, proposed god X appears to be hiding or nonexistent."
Or even more broadly, we do not see any evidence for any god(s). Period.
Also, "Even if we experience Hiddenness, WE SHOULD DOUBLE DOWN HARDER" isn't the slam-dunk logical conclusion you seem to think it is, Cam.
As a Catholic fan of your content, I have found Lectio Divina a great way to aid with alleviating Divine hiddenness. Great ancient way to mediate and contemplate the Holy Scriptures.
then u should convert to judeo-christianity from catholicism
@@mrspock6443 that is Judeo Christianity
two different beliefs buddy
@@mrspock6443 i disagree
true christianity doesn't have idols as the pope and virgin mary, use the rosary, or believe in a place of purgatory like catholicism does.
A relationship w/ God is a contradiction. You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't communicate with you in any meaningful way. An omnipotent creature would be able to communicate with every single person on the planet simultaneously, with ease, but it doesn't. As soon as someone says, "you just have to have faith", their whole argument completely breaks down.
Nice vid. Unfortunately, weirdly it doesn't address the actual argument from divine hiddennes at all.
In simplest of terms
Premise 1. All loving God wants as many people to believe in him as possible.
Premise 2. All knowing God knows sufficient evidence for non-reasisting person to believe.
Premise 3. All powerful God has the means to deliver sufficient evidence to all non resisting non-beleivers.
Premise 4 (definition): non resisting non believer would convert on receiving sufficient evidence.
Premise 5: at least one non resisting non-believer exist.
Conclusion:
Either:
God doesn't want to maximise amount of people in heaven (not all loving)
Or
God isn't aware of sufficient evidence for at least one personal conversion (not all knowing)
Or
God is unable to deliver evidence for at least one personal conversion (not all powerful)
Or
No non resistant non believers exist.
This video doesn't address validity, soundness nor any premises of the argument. (or implicitly endorses conclusion that there are no reasonable unbelievers. Which is ludicrous.)
Or.. God gives opportunities to enter into a relationship with him post-death. You should lay out all the options available before considering them in turn.
This ‘post-mortem salvific opportunities’ option is quite interesting to delve into.
Someone could also critique the assumptions that someone requires a belief to enter into a relationship with God.
@@calebp6114 I agree. This is mostly attack on "current understanding of mainstream christianity" than on theism in general. Very good points my good maite.
@@jokinghazard4022 I guess, I have no argument against your conclusion (in regards to this argument). You don't accept premise 1, and even if you did you simply accept "the last or" within conclusion.
Not to dwell too long on that, but I think the belief that there are no non-resisting non-believers is so ridiculous that it's a bible contradiction on it's own (contradiction with reality to be precise). I mean, I'm directly aware that I would become a theist given good enough evidence. That's not a belief. That's awareness (I would know that even being a brain in a jar) So while sadly I cannot prove it to you, I know for a fact that this particular biblical statement is just factually false
@@KillmanPit Simple, devastating rebuttal: God has provided sufficient evidence to believe he exists and anyone who doesn't is wrong.
In your case, your standard for "good enough evidence" is just wrong. God has provided good enough evidence, so it's your fault for not believing.
So long as it is even possible for this to be true, the argument from Divine Hiddenness fails.
@@TamerSpoon3 Not really a rebuttal. It just means that no non-resistant non believers exist. You say evidence is provided. I say it's insufficient for me. You say that Im resistant to truth. Ok.
The argument doesn't fail you just seem to be ok stating that there are no no-resistant non believers. Which is consistent within argument. But so unbeleivably laughably untrue that it barely needs refutation.
But just quickly. I'm directly aware of the state of my mind. I know that I would believe given strong enough evidence (I can give you example evidence if you want). So I'm directly aware of you being wrong. It doesn't mean I will convince you. It's just that I can sit here with my direct awareness (not belief: awareness) of you being wrong.
I wish Christians would quit using the idea of "relationship" with God. By any normal definition, relationship involves at least semiregular two-way communication between two beings. I guess I can't speak for anyone else, but I've never experienced any communication with God. There is no relationship with God, at least not in any normal sense of the word. As a Christian, this has been maybe the single most difficulty aspect to get around.
I was a Christian for 50 years. Born again in 1978. If I’m going to be honest, I never had any god communicate with me. Ever. I convinced myself I had a relationship…but it was all me.
Brad jerzak. Tuning in God.
When listening on my phone, there were a couple places where your narration dropped below the level of the music, and without the subtitles I wouldn't have been able to pick it up.
Trying to come up with more constructive feedback, but that's all I've got right now.
Thanks!
Was going to comment but found yours here. There are some spots throughout the video where the music was making it challenging to hear the narration. Particularly in the last few minutes. Otherwise, fantastic work!
Just so you know Cameron. This is very meaningful to me. 😢
If it looks like it doesn't exist, sounds like it doesn't exist, and acts like it doesn't exist...
... then it's because he loves me and he's going to send me to the eternal roaster, as I wasn't one of those chosen by him a long long time ago, since before the world existed...
Honest question, as a Christian, do you feel you have to keep coming up with excuses for God? Sometimes I feel belief in any God is like a girl that has to keep making excuses for her alcoholic boyfriend. Why he's not here or why he doesn't do that or whatever...if that makes sense. Ex. He allows evil bc..., he's always hiding bc..., he doesn't answer prayers bc... etc. Just seems like alot of excuses we have to make up in order to hsvr a tiny sliver of hope that he even exists.
Great video by the way :)
You don’t have to make excuses. All the answers we need are in the word of God, the Bible. You could encourage others to search the scriptures for answers and, if they really care, they will look into it for themselves. :)
Not so much excuses but more like reasons. God's last covenant with humanity was the path for redemption laid out through Jesus. No more words or actions are needed.
@@dirtydevil The Christian understanding of God is clearly manifested through the person of Jesus Christ, so not hidden like others.
Jesus was quoting the psalms, He did not feel forsaken.
He can both quote Psalm 22 and feel forsaken.
@@Vitamin.Z
Except we have more evidence to suggest He did not feel forsaken because He knew everything that was supposed to happen.
Absolutely loved this video. Keep doing these kind of videos as well!
EVERY hour Capturing Christian CA$H comes by to Like and Heart all the "amazing" and "awesome" comments. Never to reply to real questioning comments. LOL
Calmese viejo >:v
I have come to expect videos of far greater intellectual quality and engagement from CC and Cameron than that which is offered here. There seems no attempt to actually engage with the problem of divine hiddeness whatsoever, instead, this video seems constructed to offer reassurance to doubting Christians, not engage seriously with one of the best observations/arguements against theism. Disappointing Cameron.
The problem is, a Muslim could make this exact same argument and it would also work for them. What kind of parent watches on as their child is deceived, and then proceeds to punish them eternally for being deceived? This god is a monster.
This was a great video!! Love the animation. I hope more are coming.
One thing though- you have way too many friends with cool accents to not get them to narrate for you. Matt Fradd, Justin Brierly, Alex O’Conner when he reverts back to Christianity- either way lol 😂. Scott Haun would also be a good narrator voice. I like listening to you- just thinking about how to get more people tuning in. Great job with the production and the presuppositional response to a difficult problem.
Noooo. His voice is cool. What the. Go listen to them then.😒
@@hannavanderberg1673 not trying to throw shade- just a suggestion. I love CC and drink coffee from a BTW Christianity is True mug. Cam’s voice is great- just trying to add an extra element to the animated videos. Everyone likes a good collaboration
Will you make more of these animated videos? Because I love it!
What a pointless, convoluted way to justify continuing to believe something that cannot be confirmed through reliable means.
Meet my invisible friend Gerald, the fact you cant see him means he is there.
Did your friend Geraldo threaten to send me to the eternal roast he created with so much love? If not then he doesn't love me...
@@davidpinheiro9650 No, that would be one of Gerald's other friends, Gerald is very quiet, so quiet it is almost like he isn't there at all.
Awesome! Well done, Cameron.
So how was the problem of divine hiddenness dealt with exactly?
When i was a Christian I was told all the time that god wanted to have a relationship with me. It takes two beings to have a relationship. I don't see a difference between a god that doesn't exist and a god who can't make his presence known.
You nailed it when you brought up parents and children Cam, maybe you need to think a harder about that. What's more beneficial to your children? Being there for them or abandoning them? I think the answer is rather obvious, so why does god get a pass.
This is just one of the many plot holes in Christian theology.
You bring up a good point. I, too, was wondering the same thing. However, the issue is not reason to abandon faith in God. There are some important biblical issues not mentioned here. First is the sinfulness of man versus the holiness of God. The Bible says that our sins separate us from Him. Even Christians, though redeemed, live in sinful flesh. One of the great incomprehensible events in the Bible is when Jesus was separated from the Father on the cross. Jesus and the Father had intimate fellowship for eternity, but when the sins of mankind were placed on Christ, even He was separated for a time from the Father. This is why He cried, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The Bible also says that if any human were to look at God (in His full presence and manifestation), we would die.
When Adam and Eve were first created, we are told that they walked with God in the Garden of Eden. After their sin, they hid from God. This is the normal state of fallen man.
You call this a "plot hole." It is not a "plot hole." It is simply a perceived difficulty. I can't speak for every Christian. I can only speak for myself. I have been a Christian since I was 4. I am now 69. My relationship with God has gone through many different periods. I have been through long periods where God was VERY present and active in my daily life. I have seen and experienced wondrous things and had many spiritual visitations by my God. I have been healed. I have seen others healed. I have cast out demons and seen the vast power of the name of Christ to conquer pure evil. I even had a couple of visitations from angelic messengers. I have had many prayers answered.
One event of note was when I was with a friend at the beach. We had been walking along the beach talking for some time. When we returned to my friend's car, he realized that he didn't have his keys. We began looking for them. We looked all around and under the car and all around the parking lot. We retraced our steps and looked through the sand where we had walked--all to no avail. We returned to the car and looked under and around the car again. No keys. Finally, I said that we needed to pray. So we bowed our heads and closed our eyes and prayed. When we opened our eyes, the keys were right at our feet on the asphalt next to the car door. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that those keys were not there before we prayed, but they were there in plain sight after we prayed.
I had many such experiences. But I have also been through many, often lengthy, times when God seemed distant and silent and when few of my prayers seemed to be heard. I am currently in such a time. Those times have sorely tried my faith. But in my heart of hearts, I know God is there. I know He raised Christ from the dead. I know there is a God. I know He loves me, even when it seems like He has left me. The memories of the times of miraculous and intimate experience with God help me stay on the path.
The fact is that God MUST exist. In spite of His "hiddenness," He is real. The alternative is unthinkable and untenable in every way. The way of Christ is the ONLY way that offers true hope. Without God, we have nothing but death and oblivion for a future. Destitute nothingness is the only alternative. Life is without meaning or hope outside of Christ. This I believe; This I know with every fiber of my being. In Christ is hope. Without Christ, there is no hope, only illusion.
I really don't understand how he dealt with the problem here. He just ends with it should make people believe more! What in the world... this video does not intellectually make sense.
God's hidden
Believe in God more!
Very individualistic you, sir.
@@malirk I agree that he did not actually deal with the problem adequately. However, that fact does not make God not exist. The apparent hiddenness of God is not evidence that He does not exist. In fact, logically, it is impossible to show evidence that God does not exist.
I think one of the things we are forgetting from the video is that many Christians who have felt the presence of God and experienced his love, find themselves suddenly all alone unable to feel God, as if he disappeared or withdrew himself from their lives altogether. But lest we forget, he then suddenly reappears to them in fresh and powerful ways. So it's not as if Christians are believing in a God they've never personally known, but that there is a temporary island experience which concludes with a fresh new and even more powerful witness of God.
maybe he doesn't exist
The hiddenness of God should help us grow intellectually and morally to help others better know God? What?!!?!?
1 - God is hidden from us. This means we can't show that God exists in some observable way to others.
2 - Let's get others to worship God. Why in the world would you convince others to worship a God you can't show exists.
I think your comments are very logical. I have a thought for you to consider? The fact that you long( and are pissed at the opposite) for God to be a close God who you can truely know, closer than a real parent...doesnt that show that God exist cause where does this deep desire you have come from? You instinctively know how things should be! Then also, i suggest you watch the whole series "ontology of God" by paul young on youtube. And then watch everything you can find on paul young. I have a deeper need and "pissedness" than you..., and paul young helps me. "We only need grace for today, dont future trip"
@@hannavanderberg1673 It could be. However, is it possible that my thoughts on God are because I was raised religious?
@@malirk brain i would say our thoughts on God have many sources... religion, wounds, personal experience, UP bringing, lies of the enemy, shame, everything is designed to keep us far from God. But i think it is the biggest illusion and delusion we can face as humans. We are far from God. (Read acts 17:27-28) and watch that series from paul young. If it bores you, you can scream at me later or dont watch it. Also tuning into God (brad jerzak) changing the narrative.
My innitial point was just you intinctively know if there is a God he must be kind, warm, close and communicative for you to love Him. These desires are from the divine. You cant work it up. You are made in His image. You are reflecting Him.
@@hannavanderberg1673 I imagine you don't know Brian personally. What if he is a serial killer? You are not arguing the issue Brian presented, it looks like your are just throwing words without any context and mixing it with a little bit of touching words such as kindness, love and whatever just to convince him that god exists (talking about the christian one).
No, the Christian God does not exist, so he is not hiding
Nah, you're hiding from Him
Yup, nailed it
@@JosiahFickinger The Atheist cries in his room "God you aren't real" Poor guys. Sometimes they do choose God and good for them.
God works in mysterious ways
Can you show evidence of this God?
-The Blues Brothers
You have convinced me that there is no god
*BIGGEST STRAWMAN EVER* - Cameron compares parents not being around to the hiddenness of God. What is this? Your parents not being around to comfort you when you fall is not "Hiddenness" of your parents. Cam might as well believe that when he closes his eyes, the whole world is now hidden from him!
Real God wouldn't need holy book or priests (as every false religion has).
Every (false) god is hidden.
Why?
@@axxel9626 Good question!
@@johnmakovec5698 don't you think it's better to have a textbook which can be preserved for millenniums and be revisited regularly instead of just a one time apparition?
This was excellent! I also loved the animation and the whole style of the video. Thank you so much for the insights and encouragement!
Praying for Time
Song by George Michael
Oh-oh, yeah
Mmm
To-do-do, oh-oh
These are the days of the open hand
They will not be the last
Look around now
These are the days of the beggars and the choosers
This is the year of the hungry man
Whose place is in the past
Hand in hand with ignorance
And legitimate excuses
The rich declare themselves poor
And most of us are not sure
If we have too much but we'll take our chances
'Cause God's stopped keeping score
I guess somewhere along the way
He must have let us all out to play
Turned His back and all God's children
Crept out the back door
And it's hard to love
There's so much to hate
Hanging on to hope
When there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above
Say it's much, too much, too late
Well, maybe we should all be praying for time
To-do-do, oh-oh
Mmm, whoa-whoa, yeah
These are the days of the empty hand
Oh, you hold on to what you can
And charity is a coat you wear twice a year
This is the year of the guilty man
Your television takes a stand
And you find that what was over there is over here
So you scream from behind your door
Say what's mine is mine and not yours
I may have too much but I'll take my chances
'Cause God's stopped keeping score
And you cling to the things they sold you
Did you cover your eyes when they told you
That he can't come back 'cause he has no children
To come back for?
It's hard to love
There's so much to hate
Hanging on to hope
When there is no hope to speak of
And the wounded skies above
Say it's much too late
So maybe we should all be praying for time
To-do-do
Oh-oh, yeah
Source: Musixmatch
Songwriters: George Michael
If there really was an all knowing, all loving entity that created everything then we would know it existed. There would be no need for faith or having to refer to old myths and legends. It would be demonstrable.
If a claim entails demands which are not met, then the claim is a failure. Consider that IF someone claimed that there was a rain storm the whole day yesterday, but not a shred of evidence could be found to support the claim? It is then reasonable to conclude that the claim is false. This simple point can be applied to anything. It is on this basis that God claims can be considered falsehoods.
If you are loving to all, you demonstrate loving to all in your actions.
If you are knowledgeable, then you present that knowledge but at the very least one doesn't present falsehoods.
If you are all-powerful, you don't need proxies.
If you want belief, you would make sure that there was a basis for belief as well as making sure that there are cognitive capacities for such. Thus, there should never be people who are cognitively incapable.
Claim Failure = No God
What is the claim that is a failure? God is often proffered as at least an all-good all-knowing all-powerful entity which has a desire for belief. This claim has a demand of action with regard to addressing whatever is not good as well as making sure that there is reason for belief (and the capacity for belief) and the claim of being all-powerful and all-knowing denotes that there is capacity to fulfill such a desire and all that entails. However, it is the case that such is a failure when such shouldn't be the case given the claim.
Here are some notable issues.
1. We have people who reject the claim outright due to the moral failure in both the textual material being claimed as well as what is observed of reality. The very idea of a supposed all-good all-powerful entity allowing the horrors that are on full display regularly is a massive failure for the claim.
Do we label voyeurs of atrocities that they could stop - good? No. The very idea of just watching without addressing such if one can is repugnant to most. The very fact that it isn't all given the understanding of various cognitive capacities is itself another dismissal of God claims, since we cannot control the capacities that we have, but given the power entailed in the claim - a supposed God could address such; and the fact that such isn't addressed is simply another failure.
God is often referenced as a loving parent, but loving parents wouldn't let their children die of cancer. Thus on multiple levels the claim of an all-loving all-powerful entity is a falsehood.
2. We have atheists who reject the claim due to the various falsehoods in the religious texts being claimed as being from God. Thus, if there were a God concerned about belief, then it is rational to expect that such would be addressed...and yet nothing.
The very idea of there being atheists is itself an absurdity in the face of the claim, since there should be ample evidence as well as cognitive capacity as well as emotional agreeableness for the idea, but this is not the case.
Various God depictions are so horrific as to cause immediate rejection of the idea, since there is no reconciling the horror with the idea of anything loving of the power being claimed. The various rationalizations that are often done given the horror show observed resonates as grotesque. to such a degree that cognitive and emotional capacities are questioned.
3. We have believers with all sorts of different God claims such that it is clear that they do not all hold the same God claim.
The fact of this parade of different God claims which is reviewable throughout all of written history is sufficient by itself to denote God claims as mythological. This actually gets worse when one reviews the details as to how theological claims morph and/or form new theological notions. Christianity demonstrates this with every point of conflict of belief shown in that one category of religions.
4. Moral adjudications can be corrupted by belief. Consider that there are believers can denote the mass killing of babies as a great good. The very idea that belief can be so warping as to think such an horror could be considered good given the assault on well being and the suffering entailed would seem unconscionable - and yet it occurs in the name of God.
One would think that IF there were God any atrocities being claimed would be addressed, since such is an assault to belief which demand redress, but there is no redress. We have instead people rationalizing horrors of all sorts in the name of God.
5. Believers often posit God as the most knowledgeable entity in existence. Thus, there is the idea of competence given the claim of being all-knowing and all-powerful such that ANY material which is claimed as being from such should not entail ANY falsehoods. However, the material is such that it reasonable to classify such material as being mythological, thus being another failure of the claim being demonstrated.
6. We have people claiming to speak for God with a spew of falsehoods or vapid commentary resulting in an immediate assault to the idea that there has been such a communication.
7. There are many who have claimed to have had an experience from God, however, the fact of such not being provided to all is sufficient to dismiss the claim as false, since all show have the experience IF that is what is required for belief given the claim entails that God desires belief.
I suppose one could rationalize every issue that I could cite, but when will the rationalizations stop and the acceptance of the issues and associated implications be accepted?
Any excuse which is in conflict with what is understood, automatically demands evidence that what is being presented is actually the case. Thus, given any excuse which cannot be shown to be the case, the excuse is dismissed as assertion.
---
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncretism
ruclips.net/video/jJRy3Kl_z5E/видео.html (Dragon in My Garage)
mondoweiss.net/2015/12/forgotten-society-psychologist/
He is completely hidden… nobody anywhere even suspects he exists! 🤦
Yeah definitely. If you only look at the empirical evidence you would never come to the conclusion that god exists
Loved the animation and voice over.
Great job.
Btw, How much this video has cost you?
Awesome animations, Cameron. Keep up the good work!
EVERY few hours Capturing Christian CA$H comes by to Like and Heart all the "amazing" and "awesome" comments. Never to reply to real questions.
So, because God doesn't seem to be there, we should take it as a message to invest more into faith... instead of at least acknowledging that this is the same outcome we would expect if God didn't actually interact with our world in any way or simply didn't exist at all...
Also, on the subject of people who would reject your God even if he did exist, that's kinda what happens when people look at all of the things your God is supposedly responsible for without the rose-colored glasses of religion to affect them. *At best,* he appears to be a manipulative, petty and cruel monster who doesn't even value his own flesh and blood since he offered him up as an unneeded sacrifice, and who has a body count so high it makes all of the *real* terrible monsters throughout history jealous.
As a Christian who has received almost everything asked of God, I can assure you it’s not necessarily a good thing. If God knows what is best for you and you cry out for something else, then you’re not receiving the best thing He has for your life. Do you then want God to give it to you? I have learned to stop asking God for things unless I’m sure it’s completely in love. Be careful what you ask for.
1 - What did you ask God for?
2 - How do you know God gave you these things?
@@malirk
1. Are you asking for a list?
2. If you searched for years and couldn’t find what you were looking for or needed something crucial in a short period of time and had no way of getting it… like a 1 in billion shot…but then begged a friend to help you and it showed up on your doorstep. Would you then pretend that by coincidence it just so happen to land on your doorstep? What would be the most likely scenario, that you’re SO lucky that you just happen to hit 1 in a billion shot multiple times soon after you asked your friend for help OR is it more likely your friend actually helped you out in getting it?
@@defiance1790 Yes. Feel free to list the things and then how you know it was God.
@@malirk
I already explained how it was God. If you fail to see my explanation then I doubt giving you a list will make any difference.
@@defiance1790 I have no idea what happened... can you more specifically explain the story and how you knew it was God. I failed to understand what you wrote.
Love the new style of video!
Sometimes God “hides” Himself from us to test our faith... can we still hold on to what we know to be true, even though we can’t feel it at the moment (often times in difficult situations)?
I want to add that no matter how disconnected you feel from God (or God from you), He’s always there. He IS Faithful! For 10 years I was in darkness, could not feel the Presence of God anymore, I even became agnostic; until suddenly God revealed His Glorious Presence through the Holy Spirit in one instant that changed my entire life. My whole darkened heart was filled with Spiritual Light, Life and Love coming from God. I knew then He had been preparing me for that moment, in all those years of spiritual slumber and brokenness. He had never abandoned me for one instant, even though it felt like it. 🙏🏻💖
I needed this, thank you 🙏🏾
@@orondahwali5852 may God bless you much 💖🙏🏻
"Hiddenness improves their relationship with God". Circular reasoning. It assumes that which it's trying to prove. In general, the problem of hiddenness is not resolved. If God wants to be known, he's failing at it.
What do you make of these pertinent questions?
From the book … The Arrogance of Faith, by Forrest G. Wood ... My faith serves me and yours serves you, the Indian seemed to be saying. Why should anyone want to interfere with that? Besides, if Christianity is for everyone, why was it not from the beginning revealed to everyone?
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?" -- Annie Dillard, 'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek'
I thought this video would be good but it's just big strawman and red herring fallacy on divine hiddenness arguments against God's *EXISTENCE*
Btw animation is good
I appreciate the time and effort this video must have required, but the majority of these explanations essentially amount to “God works in mysterious ways.” Obviously this answer is not acceptable to atheists, and is acceptable to even the most devoted Christians for only so long.
Thank you for this. Much needed
So here’s the thing. A god would know how to reveal itself without confusion. That it doesn’t is telling.
Show everyone the Chanel's financials Cameron....
This doesn't address the main problem.
This is just theist word salad.
Just kidding. I think this was really well done Cameron! You should make more of these to be honest. While the apologetics community loves digging into the more academic side of things, I think animated videos like this, giving the average person a helpful perspective on hard topics is needed.
I think it is mostly theist word salad. The suggestion that God could be hidden because some non-believers say they wouldn't worship him if they realised he exists is baffling to me.
@@Apanblod incredulity isn’t really an objection to what he said. So you’re not saying anything meaningful that holds evidential value
@@ExploringReality What could I say to that statement that would be meaningful or 'holds evidential value'? It's just a personal take on an unsupported guess from Cameron regarding God's potential motivations.
@@Apanblod It's an objection to the foundation of the hiddenness argument. God is not merely interested in people knowing THAT he exists, but in personal relationships. It's not even unexpected that people wouldn't worship God if they knew he existed, Christopher Hitchens et al. have come right out and said it. Even within Christianity, demons certainly know God exists but they don't worship him.
The entire argument is refuted by the possibility that non-believers are either misevaluating or mistaken about the evidence for God's existence. The atheist basically has to prove that such a situation is impossible, after all, that is what they mean by a non-resistant non-believer. They have to prove that such a person cannot be mistaken about the sufficiency of the evidence.
You were right. It is just word salad. He ends that hiddenness is a reason for people to believe and share their faith more. What???
yeahhhhh so appreciate this!
Wow, you now have animation!
What a load of crap. (A) For all the examples pointed to in the Bible of God’s hidden nature, you can also find as many examples of accounts of God making his presence abundantly clear through divine miracles; (B) this is guy is arguing in bad faith when he says that the performance of a clear, unambiguous miracle by God (e.g., parting of the sea, manna from heavens) would not cause non-believers to believe in God. There are so many people who want to believe but don’t because there is not sufficient evidence of God’s existence.
Nicely put you should keep it up and bring up more insights on some issues that seem to bother people in some way
Nice job, Cameron. GBU
This is great. You’ve got a strong voice for narration
Wow thanks!
@@CapturingChristianity It's TELLLING that you have time for compliments and hearting every positive "well done" comment but no time for the main objections. LOL
Great Job Cameron!!
Yeah, behind you
"Be not deceived, Wormwood, our cause is never more in jeopardy than when a human, no longer desiring but still intending to do our Enemy's will, looks round upon a universe in which every trace of Him seems to have vanished, and asks why he has been forsaken, and still obeys." C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
It seems like this answers some cases of hiddenness however I'm still a little unclear about the non-resistant non-believer case. In the video you say "what about non-believers who don't fit this mold?" then you go on to talk about the Christian community sometimes failing to do good but that seems to avoid the question of why God is hidden from non-resistant non-believers.
You talk about how God knows more than us so his actions may seem strange but that could be said about anyone who doesn't appear to be God. Do any actions count against someone being God? If so, I think being hidden is one of them since that is something I would not expect a God who wants a relationship to do.
@@jokinghazard4022 An example of a non-resistant non-believer would be someone who lives in a secluded area and has never heard of Jesus or someone born 10,000 years ago.
The video made very little sense to me. It seemed more like a rant that went off-topic more than addressing the actual issue.
@@jokinghazard4022 How can we determine if someone is resistant or not?
@@jokinghazard4022 So you are saying that it is literally impossible for anyone to be non-resistant? Is there any slight chance that you could be mistaken about that?
@@jokinghazard4022 I'm sure Muslims also have no possible chance of being wrong either.
Sweet upload.
Great video
Great video.....a barrage of excuses as to why the invisible man in the sky with magic powers doesn't actually pop out of the sky and interact with the real world like he does in the magical fairy tale holy book...great work
okay then explain how the brain creates consciousness and the universe magically created itself out of nothing without a creator. I'll wait. Especially with the fairy tale of life coming out of primordial soup
@@soylatte1288 Skeptics don't have to have an explanation for any of those things. They can say "I don't know", unlike theists, who need to have a reason for why those things are the way they are.
Any more videos coming??
Don't you have to establish that Abram existed first?
I don't think you do. The Bible teaches spiritual truths with its stories, no matter if the event happened historically or not.
@@AJ-hi4lx What is one spiritual truth in the Bible?
@@malirk Well, for one, the story of Abram teaches that the God will follow through with His promises. Abram didn't have to exist historically in order for this lesson to be taught.
@@AJ-hi4lx Did the story of Abram really happen or is it just a story?
@@malirk That's a good question. I don't know. A quick look at Wikipedia seems to suggest that the story didn't happen historically, but I'm really not qualified to say.
Amazing ❤️
You’re entire RUclips channel has been a great blessing as a ministry, but this is a great example of utilizing your strengths with apologetics towards evangelism.
Great work!
You don’t really touch on the argument at all. I think going over the hiddenness argument more critically would have benefited not only the viewer, but also your response in narrowing what exactly is at issue.
God may exist but is prudentially non existent as there is no presence or comfort from such a being
Well done!
Love it!
Not to detract but to add to your lovely video I also love imbeggars videos here on RUclips spoiler alert though he’s a Catholic but I spose beggars can’t be choosers thank you again seriously it’s a profound reason why people give up and can hang on endlessly in a weird atheistic/agnostic painful limbo God have mercy on us all
I felt we here god through feeling not direct words
Christian believers are hidden in Jesus - from the wrath of God. In our sinful flesh God must hide himself from ourselves, but he did not leave
us orphans. Pursue the Holy Spirit through purity and trust.
God is the champion of Hide N Seek
Looks great! You should definitely do another one!
There is NO god of ANY holy book. ALL gods are strictly human manufactured fiction. Christianity, Islam, Judaism are an absurdity full of hate and ignorance. god is fiction in EVERY religion, culture, and language, everywhere, every second of every day, 365. It is just an excuse to engage in ordained hate and othering. Religion is no solution for the requirements of humanity in the 21st century. The sooner humanity understands this, the sooner we can get to work in unison for humanity actual. Non-belief is JUSTIFIED! ALL evidence and rules of evidence point to ZERO gods, the divinity of Jesus is fiction likewise that of Mohammed likewise Moses...etc etc for all religions for many thousands of years, ALL fiction. Your religion is false just as much as you believe the next religion across the globe is false, you don't get to be right all by yourself, instead, YOU and EVERYONE else's religion are wrong. Human created god(s). No such thing as mystics or angels or devils.