As a 5, specially 5w4, I become an atheist at 12, where I lived been christian is like "the sky is blue". Even thought my mom does not like it, she just learn to accept it.
As an adoptive mom of 7, I think of church as being similar to a large adopted family of kids from a variety of genetics, trauma and life experiences all trying to figure out how to pull together and be a safe place with the common goal to be more like our adoptive Father. As a social 7, I look for Travel Buddies in the Faith that will “spur one another on to love and good deeds.” I’ve left a church that was all about the show onstage and not the fellowship of believers in the seats. I’m at a church now where I am very thankful to have that…it’s not fancy but people are real with each other. I think a great follow up video would be Why People Go To Church…
I'm a 9w1 but almost every reason you mentioned felt applicable. It's also interesting because the same reasons (disillusioned, hypocrisy, no goals, etc.) can be applied to many situations in life: church, work, the military, professional organizations. My family is part of several private organizations like VFW, Moose and Elks Lodge, etc. and it's been like fighting a losing battle. Really interesting talk and I appreciate you sharing as always 👏
You just blew my freakin mind!!! I had no idea that teachers didn't study in debth the subjects they are teaching. I didn't even consider it! I always have so many questions... and it's not to embarrass anyone! It's simply because i don't know the answers. I have been told to stop asking. I've been treated reeaaaaaalllly harshly for even the most simple questions. I am blown away. I think I'm in shock actually. What better place is there than church to ask those questions? Ha! My husband is a 9. I asked him about those who teach and their lessons. He said most throw it together an hour before church. I was lost for words. 😮 My 5 is shining brightly. Thank you for that. Wow😂😮😂
@@twlahue I gotta tell you doctor pastor brother man Mr L... I'm still pretty amazed how right on the money that was. Seriously! I think for me the things that really stump me are the inconsistencies in the patterns of those I observe. This one, being made fun of for asking honest questions, has been pretty hard to miss. However! Adding the variable that most don't even prepare for what they teach changes the entire equation, scenario, pattern.... Leaves me with two conclusions that I don't know what to do with. 1) relief!!! They really aren't that unintelligent. My ivory tower can get pretty lonely... 😂. 2) foolish me. If I hadn't heard you say that I'm not sure it's a conclusion that I ever would have come to. This one was/is so far beyond me. Maybe I'm a fool because I really thought that people would study all they could and talk to others about subject to give a good representation of it. And if this is what happens in church, did it happen in school too... I almost feel like I just found out that there's no Santa Claus. Not quite sure what to do with the fall out.
perfect as always Tom. As 8w7, I do things on my own. No debating, waiting and questioning. I rather spend 2 hours a week cooking a meal for 6 kids who's single mother has not enough to feed them than sitting in a church, singing allelujahs and pretending to be saint-er than a saint. I don't need to fix the whole world. Just making someone's one day less miserable is already changing someone's world. Boom! Done! Love your videos. Always.
Great to help others that’s being a Christian. However going to church isn’t mainly about us. It’s about worshipping together yes but it’s about who we worship not what we do. Focus is on God not man during church.
I really appreciate your comment. It touched my heart deeply because I have a family member who is a type eight and left the church in a super brutal way. It was ugly. It hurt a ton of people in and out of our family. This family member refuses any type of “Christian contact” and wants nothing to do with Jesus. A lot of the time I just feel that this person is abrasive and rude, but your comment just reminded me why they might be so hard hitting when it comes to Christianity and why they left. It reminded me of the type of heart they have. Seriously, thank you.
5w6- Definitely called "critical spirit" because of having questions and being a Berean. I was told I was a pain to teachers and preachers because of my questioning. Also being the "observer" we are not really as involved in the social aspects, as far as having the friends- so when we do go missing no one cares. Not many friends because of being gun shy and private people and the pastor is glad to be rid of us so they don't have to answer the hard questions.
I'm an enneagram 5 and the reason is simple: I'm agnostic. I've never really cared for organized religion to begin with and all the bigotry than often comes along with it. I don't need a higher power telling me how to live my life. I'm just not interested in going.
Buddy that was the most honest video I have ever heard about churches, you nailed it, I don’t go to church for most of those reasons, but mostly I can’t see an unconditional loving god sending anyone to a place of torture for all of eternity for finite sin that we were born into. Anyways thanks for a great honest video!
Exactly. Type 9 I left the church because the church is judgmental. I made friends from other faiths and I just don’t believe they are going to hell. It’s not for me. I Love Jesus but I don’t need to be around a bunch of assholes to love Jesus ❤ and yes, I prefer to relax at home in my Pjs on Sunday LOL
I see 9 and 4 in myself. I don't develop social relationships that others seem to, and I end up feeling like an outsider. I easily notice people who value appearances over authenticity, and can't relate. I want to find a place where I can just relax with a group of people, and feel like I've found my "tribe", and I've checked out a lot of churches, but I end up feeling stressed when I go.
It’s way worse than that.. sometimes church leaders are just evil pretenders.. really there to take advantage. I’ve been meditating and learning a variety of philosophies and theories and feel so relieved. I still love Jesus but there’s so much more 😌
5 here.....the reasons I left churches are: 1) They really pushed having adult bible studies without children. Totally understandable - no judgement implied here, but this was not something we were interested in doing as we wanted all the extra time we had as a family to spend with our children. We liked our kids and liked time with them! Plus, with living on one income all our lives, getting a baby sitter for our large family once a week in order to make others feel like we were serious christians and committed to our faith through bible study was an expense and trouble (and a hypocrisy in my view) that we were not willing to put up with. 2) We (especially I) have unconventional theological beliefs from time to time. We aren't comfortable in a 'liberal' church community since the truth often gets sidelined in the interests of the pop culture "cause du jour" and the desire for emotional fulfillment as opposed to seeking truth. Plus, in some cases actually believing that Jesus is the savior of the world sometimes doesn't fit well with how liberal churches view their country club atmosphere. We also weren't always comfortable in the evangelical community since we couldn't be who we were and speak truthfully about what we believed and why when people questioned us about it (we ourselves never brought these things up as we knew they would make others uncomfortable). The one time this raised its head in a big, official way was when we were asked to sign a statement of faith in order to work with foreign students in our community. I just refuse to do that sort of thing and it also contained something that would be a lie for me to say I believe. That raised red flags for people even though we were not specific in why we refused to sign it. People started treating us differently after that. I know what a gentle shunning feels like. 3) The church wanted children in sunday school during the sermon. It was always important to us that our children behaved very well in public, and they did behave well in church so we declined to do this. We were approached in a pretty snippy way by the head of the sunday school committee and asked to put our children in sunday school. I said no, children belong with their families during worship and if children being present in the congregation 'ruin the moment' of worship for other people, then there was something wrong (and it wasn't my kids). She basically revealed that if there weren't enough kids in SS then the program might close, which seemed like a rational approach to a problem of their own creating. This was a seminal moment and made me realize that all too often the Christian church was just like any other organization trying to keep itself going for the sake of the organization itself. It was a sad moment for me. 4) The music. As a musician bad music is actually painful for me to sit through. The church has abandoned the power of worship through choral, community singing in favor of the live performance/rock concert model. I can only take so much of that. And hymns with truly terrible theology are disgusting to me. I can't sing a lie just because everyone else is doing it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 😆
Omg- my husband is a 5 and I love both the length and content of your response- very familiar-these were many of our same church issues….thanks for your comment😊
@@jenn4482 My husband is a 9. What are you? How can you put up with us??!! XD God has used us outside 'the camp' throughout our christian lives and I've just given up on fitting in somewhere. We went to church off and on throughout all our lives but too much of what was going on wasn't acceptable for either of us. We did go to church pretty regularly for about a year so that our kids would understand what the christian experience is like for most christian kids they would grow up with. Some day I will have to ask them what they think about their christian upbringing. We do talk about it from time to time but they are all on their own journey towards God and four of the five go to some kind of church regularly now that they have families of their own.
How refreshing! Thank you for your transparency, levity, and vulnerability. As a 2, I felt very connected to your experience and appreciative of the multiple points you made. And you had me laughing out loud throughout much of the video.
This is so helpful! I'm a fish-out-of-water Enneagram 9 who leads Children's Ministry but can't understand the push to get kids interested in Liturgical Worship by immersion in the worship services. My church is Presbyterian USA (PCUSA). Some adults (not me) are very nurtured by the deep history, liturgical language, etc., but I keep realizing that most of the kids in worship need a translator to even begin to understand what is going on. Your post will help me practice patience with the worship leaders and lovingly serve as a translator for the children - because I'm also a Sunday School teacher. 😊
9 PCUSA here and totally agree. I love the liturgy, but this a good reminder to speak to the children too. I found a good advent program for my family that really helped at Christmas a couple of years ago. But I hadnt thought to really connect it to the kids weekly.
I will say as a 2w3 the reason I left the church was partly for what you said I gave everything I had and no one really appreciated me and when I left no one reached out….but the second and many reason I left religion as a whole and stopped believing was because I didn’t care that the church hurt me but watching the church repeatedly attack people that I knew and loved and cared about and condemn them because of who they loved or because the person they are didn’t match with the gender they were assigned….I couldn’t stand by and wouldn’t stand for it….my heart would never have let me live with myself if I had….
That is everything in a nutshell! I have a granddaughter who might be gay. I am so relieved that my daughter and son-in-law have chosen to leave our church because of the teachings to the LGBTQ community. “We love you, but you can’t ever participate in any gay behavior or you are not worthy to be a full fledged member. Oh, and you can’t get married, unless you marry someone of the opposite sex, and if that messes up your life and your poor spouses life, we will send you to some crazy therapist, who is willing to abide by our church rules!” No thanks!
Our pastor talked about the church being fellowship of the ppl not the building. Definitely love our church community. ❤ Getting plugged in has been amazing. We all need ppl to do life with.
Dr Tom you are always “ spot on” in your analysis. I am always amazed. I am an 8. I mean an EIGHT- and you described me perfectly. I represent disabled children as a lawyer and have a three pound dog that I protect but I act exactly as you describe around my church community. Exactly. And I do not know how to have an “ inside voice” nor do I can. It was absolutely hilarious. Thank you.
Great video. For me as an 8, the thing that has been most problematic for me is that churches are often all about control which inevitably goes above and beyond the core of Jesus’ teachings.
Fantastic video!!! I'm a counter phobic six that's really healthy. It took a lot of work to find the counter phobic part out because it's not something that discussed often. I'd love to know your thoughts on the different behaviors between male and female counter phobic sixes and how that plays out in every day life. Thanks so much for this awesome channel! My wife and I have learned so much from you and truly appreciate your time and work that you put into this!
Well, you see. I'm an Infp-T 4w5 with four spirit guides. One is Jesús. But another is the Yoruba godess Oshun. So, I just read my oracle cards alone. And spend time in nature. Lololololol
Each moment: life gets easier and easier. I love my life. I will no longer be trapped in a fake prison. I am setting myself free, NOW! It hurt, and that's the past. I now live in the present. I am the phoenix rising from the ashes!
Such a wonderful video and so needed in our world today! Thank you for sharing! Sadly so many have been hurt by people in their church. But God can heal broken hearts. ❤ (9w1)
Is there a difference in the way a counterphobic 6 vs a phobic 6 might experience leaving the church? My church experience is closer to the type 1, but in every other aspect of my life I am a 6. I didn’t relate to your examples of 6 in this. For instance the idea of togetherness and community across different cultures sounds great to me. I have always been uncomfortable with the idea that there is only one way to heaven and all other paths lead to hell so I’m not the type to complain about Halloween or Christmas trees because of pagan origins. My issues with the church revolves around my discomfort with the “our way is the ONLY way and everyone else in the entire world is wrong” attitude. Sixes tend to relate to and align themselves with the underdog so the idea that “x group is going to hell” because they are different than the norm is a dealbreaker for me. I miss the sense of community I got with the church but I can’t ignore the hypocrisy, marginalization of people who believe/love differently or stories of corruption (abuse and financial) I have heard.
Yup! Between this and people being horribly fake (ie, seeing leadership say "all are welcome", but then telling someone who is disabled that they can go find another church) and then getting in trouble for bringing this to the attention of the leadership and told it wasn't okay to ask why they were so hypocritical...
I love that! "Ahhh... Pastor... can I talk to you for a moment? I noticed there is a Christmas tree inn the sanctuary." I can totally see that happening.
Thanks for this engagement time on this analysis & the Enneagram, TOM. Well-invested insight on 'US' the human critter on this 3rd rock from the SUN, this time around. Keep on keeping on! It does make a difference as we chase our tails as creatures. You are appreciated and so are your investments as we engage this Blue-Green Marble one day at a time. You make a DIFFERENCE. semper fi
This is a great video, Tom! I related to almost every one! I still don’t know if I’m a 7 or a 4 or a 9. And I am evolving into a 5 and 6 as I get older!! And sometimes I am a big 8!
7w8 SO, never did church but used to be open, live and let live, and then I became went into my 5 and did research and became disillusioned and anti organized religion.
maybe not related I once heard an enneagram coach said many 7 will turn towards buddism as a quest to find eternal happiness. I'm a 7 and this is exactly why i turned towards buddism. all the external stimulus are short lived (parties, adventures etc). After the hype , i need to chase down the endless activities to keep me happy. Christianity on the other hand condemn and despise other religion, which i humbly disagree. Buddism is to find internal happiness and be watchful to the present. It is also about meditation, which a 7 much needed
Been loving your videos recently. As an 8, and as someone interested in a 6, I've been focused on those types. Anyway, the topic here really had my interest, and I admittedly just went directly to the 8 section. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool atheist (raised Catholic), so I wanted to see if the rationale/feeling you presented would resonate with me. At first, it didn't, because you seemed to be referring to the leaving of a particular church, whereas for me, it was the leaving and rejecting the very concept of a god. But then you highlighted the fact that an 8 is likely to see and call out bullshit. And really, that's exactly what my experience was. And, wow, come to think of it, it does come back to the idea of being controlled by someone else. One of my earliest memories, regarding religion, is my reaction to first Confession (probably around 10 y.o.?). And I remember being instructed that, or at least feeling as if I must, make up a sin to confess, if I had no sins. Which, while I didn't use the word at that age, I certainly considered bullshit. And then my doubts and questions continued over the next years, until finally I told my father, the staunch Catholic, that I was no longer going to church, etc. At 15 I declared my independence, and, yes, it had largely to do with a zealous anger that I was being made to show up for something that I thought was bullshit. And that I was being controlled by my father. Funny enough, I think my father's an 8 too. 😀
Thank you for sharing your journey! It's fascinating how our experiences shape our beliefs, and I appreciate your insights on the Eights. It sounds like you've really found your own path...
I am a 4 whose been upset with the church I've been going to for almost 4 years now and you just described exactly what I've been going through. I still don't really feel apart of my church family in any meaningful way and I'm past done expecting to so I'm out.
Ok best video you’ve made, sir! I really enjoyed this and needed this because I am, as you say, INCREDIBLY burnt out with churches, but i wonder how many people are burnt out with me and they don’t leave🥲😂 Thanks for the video!
One can go to church every day, memorize the Bible backward and forwards, go on overseas missions, do good deeds, tithe 100% of one's income, whatever, but at the end of the day, those hidden programs, that suppressed trauma and those repressed emotions are still running the show just like they always have and nothing in any church is going to change that. That is why I left.
@@twlahue Not only that, the same Evangelicals who’ve spent decades demonizing those who reject the Church are now the single most compelling reason for them to do so.
An 11th reason is that no spiritual growth is possible because the church only offers "dairy foods." (I'm a 4w3 as getting older growing into her 5wing)
Bro. you can't quit church. You're the pastor!! I think that which eneagram was a particular Bible character would be cool. Like David was like a 5 w6 or something. Or Paul was a 1. Or pastors are usually ____. Prophets are usually _____. Evangelists are usually ____.
The command to leadership is: preach the Word. In season is what everybody and their dog wants you to preach. Out of season is when they want to vote you out. Pastors have a standard established in the Pastoral Epistles. What you desire, regarding getting "real" with each other is best done in a home cell group or something similar. If you throw out biblical standards, then it doesn't matter how you do it, because you are not a church and you're not part of the church: so you can sit naked, bow-legged on the floor and stare at each other's navel or whatever...because you are not really IN Christ's body. You are in Frank's body or Jeff's body or Suzie's body. And you meet to glorify that particular body. In that case, you can compile your own particular "bible" because the Bible has been esteemed as irrelevant to you. Call it the Book of Frank, etc. But just be real and up front about what you're doing, because some of us don't have the time to waste. Ie. I ain't getting any younger and me holding hands with you and singing Kumbaiya is not doing the deal.
These last few years can explain why every “ type” left the church. None of them want to continue living a lie and being awful examples of human beings.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
As a 5, specially 5w4, I become an atheist at 12, where I lived been christian is like "the sky is blue". Even thought my mom does not like it, she just learn to accept it.
As an adoptive mom of 7, I think of church as being similar to a large adopted family of kids from a variety of genetics, trauma and life experiences all trying to figure out how to pull together and be a safe place with the common goal to be more like our adoptive Father. As a social 7, I look for Travel Buddies in the Faith that will “spur one another on to love and good deeds.” I’ve left a church that was all about the show onstage and not the fellowship of believers in the seats. I’m at a church now where I am very thankful to have that…it’s not fancy but people are real with each other.
I think a great follow up video would be Why People Go To Church…
I'm a 9w1 but almost every reason you mentioned felt applicable. It's also interesting because the same reasons (disillusioned, hypocrisy, no goals, etc.) can be applied to many situations in life: church, work, the military, professional organizations. My family is part of several private organizations like VFW, Moose and Elks Lodge, etc. and it's been like fighting a losing battle. Really interesting talk and I appreciate you sharing as always 👏
As a 9, I can tell you that EVERY reason you gave for every other type is the reason why I do not go to church.
50:35 Fellow 9's ^^
You just blew my freakin mind!!! I had no idea that teachers didn't study in debth the subjects they are teaching. I didn't even consider it! I always have so many questions... and it's not to embarrass anyone! It's simply because i don't know the answers. I have been told to stop asking. I've been treated reeaaaaaalllly harshly for even the most simple questions. I am blown away. I think I'm in shock actually. What better place is there than church to ask those questions? Ha! My husband is a 9. I asked him about those who teach and their lessons. He said most throw it together an hour before church. I was lost for words. 😮 My 5 is shining brightly. Thank you for that. Wow😂😮😂
It's incredible how much we can learn when we start asking questions! Don't let anyone discourage your curiosity-it's a valuable trait.
@@twlahue I gotta tell you doctor pastor brother man Mr L... I'm still pretty amazed how right on the money that was. Seriously! I think for me the things that really stump me are the inconsistencies in the patterns of those I observe. This one, being made fun of for asking honest questions, has been pretty hard to miss. However! Adding the variable that most don't even prepare for what they teach changes the entire equation, scenario, pattern.... Leaves me with two conclusions that I don't know what to do with. 1) relief!!! They really aren't that unintelligent. My ivory tower can get pretty lonely... 😂. 2) foolish me. If I hadn't heard you say that I'm not sure it's a conclusion that I ever would have come to. This one was/is so far beyond me. Maybe I'm a fool because I really thought that people would study all they could and talk to others about subject to give a good representation of it. And if this is what happens in church, did it happen in school too... I almost feel like I just found out that there's no Santa Claus. Not quite sure what to do with the fall out.
perfect as always Tom. As 8w7, I do things on my own. No debating, waiting and questioning. I rather spend 2 hours a week cooking a meal for 6 kids who's single mother has not enough to feed them than sitting in a church, singing allelujahs and pretending to be saint-er than a saint. I don't need to fix the whole world. Just making someone's one day less miserable is already changing someone's world. Boom! Done! Love your videos. Always.
Thanks for your awesome comment.
Great to help others that’s being a Christian. However going to church isn’t mainly about us. It’s about worshipping together yes but it’s about who we worship not what we do. Focus is on God not man during church.
Boy are you lost and screwed up. You can do both, you know.
I really appreciate your comment. It touched my heart deeply because I have a family member who is a type eight and left the church in a super brutal way. It was ugly. It hurt a ton of people in and out of our family. This family member refuses any type of “Christian contact” and wants nothing to do with Jesus. A lot of the time I just feel that this person is abrasive and rude, but your comment just reminded me why they might be so hard hitting when it comes to Christianity and why they left. It reminded me of the type of heart they have. Seriously, thank you.
5w6- Definitely called "critical spirit" because of having questions and being a Berean. I was told I was a pain to teachers and preachers because of my questioning. Also being the "observer" we are not really as involved in the social aspects, as far as having the friends- so when we do go missing no one cares. Not many friends because of being gun shy and private people and the pastor is glad to be rid of us so they don't have to answer the hard questions.
Good message for pastors and members of the congregation alike. Thank you Dr. Tom
Glad you enjoyed it
I'm an enneagram 5 and the reason is simple: I'm agnostic. I've never really cared for organized religion to begin with and all the bigotry than often comes along with it. I don't need a higher power telling me how to live my life. I'm just not interested in going.
Thank you Tom for being honest and speaking up on this, so important to hear as MANY of us out here are hurting and confused. ❤️🩹
Buddy that was the most honest video I have ever heard about churches, you nailed it, I don’t go to church for most of those reasons, but mostly I can’t see an unconditional loving god sending anyone to a place of torture for all of eternity for finite sin that we were born into. Anyways thanks for a great honest video!
Exactly. Type 9 I left the church because the church is judgmental. I made friends from other faiths and I just don’t believe they are going to hell. It’s not for me. I Love Jesus but I don’t need to be around a bunch of assholes to love Jesus ❤ and yes, I prefer to relax at home in my Pjs on Sunday LOL
I see 9 and 4 in myself. I don't develop social relationships that others seem to, and I end up feeling like an outsider. I easily notice people who value appearances over authenticity, and can't relate. I want to find a place where I can just relax with a group of people, and feel like I've found my "tribe", and I've checked out a lot of churches, but I end up feeling stressed when I go.
From a type 4 in ministry who’s very interested in topics like these-I SO appreciate this! Thank you!!!
You might as well say you are a cultist.
@@tomthx5804 Naahh
It’s way worse than that.. sometimes church leaders are just evil pretenders.. really there to take advantage. I’ve been meditating and learning a variety of philosophies and theories and feel so relieved. I still love Jesus but there’s so much more 😌
5 here.....the reasons I left churches are:
1) They really pushed having adult bible studies without children. Totally understandable - no judgement implied here, but this was not something we were interested in doing as we wanted all the extra time we had as a family to spend with our children. We liked our kids and liked time with them! Plus, with living on one income all our lives, getting a baby sitter for our large family once a week in order to make others feel like we were serious christians and committed to our faith through bible study was an expense and trouble (and a hypocrisy in my view) that we were not willing to put up with.
2) We (especially I) have unconventional theological beliefs from time to time. We aren't comfortable in a 'liberal' church community since the truth often gets sidelined in the interests of the pop culture "cause du jour" and the desire for emotional fulfillment as opposed to seeking truth. Plus, in some cases actually believing that Jesus is the savior of the world sometimes doesn't fit well with how liberal churches view their country club atmosphere. We also weren't always comfortable in the evangelical community since we couldn't be who we were and speak truthfully about what we believed and why when people questioned us about it (we ourselves never brought these things up as we knew they would make others uncomfortable). The one time this raised its head in a big, official way was when we were asked to sign a statement of faith in order to work with foreign students in our community. I just refuse to do that sort of thing and it also contained something that would be a lie for me to say I believe. That raised red flags for people even though we were not specific in why we refused to sign it. People started treating us differently after that. I know what a gentle shunning feels like.
3) The church wanted children in sunday school during the sermon. It was always important to us that our children behaved very well in public, and they did behave well in church so we declined to do this. We were approached in a pretty snippy way by the head of the sunday school committee and asked to put our children in sunday school. I said no, children belong with their families during worship and if children being present in the congregation 'ruin the moment' of worship for other people, then there was something wrong (and it wasn't my kids). She basically revealed that if there weren't enough kids in SS then the program might close, which seemed like a rational approach to a problem of their own creating. This was a seminal moment and made me realize that all too often the Christian church was just like any other organization trying to keep itself going for the sake of the organization itself. It was a sad moment for me.
4) The music. As a musician bad music is actually painful for me to sit through. The church has abandoned the power of worship through choral, community singing in favor of the live performance/rock concert model. I can only take so much of that. And hymns with truly terrible theology are disgusting to me. I can't sing a lie just because everyone else is doing it.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 😆
Omg- my husband is a 5 and I love both the length and content of your response- very familiar-these were many of our same church issues….thanks for your comment😊
@@jenn4482 My husband is a 9. What are you? How can you put up with us??!! XD God has used us outside 'the camp' throughout our christian lives and I've just given up on fitting in somewhere. We went to church off and on throughout all our lives but too much of what was going on wasn't acceptable for either of us. We did go to church pretty regularly for about a year so that our kids would understand what the christian experience is like for most christian kids they would grow up with. Some day I will have to ask them what they think about their christian upbringing. We do talk about it from time to time but they are all on their own journey towards God and four of the five go to some kind of church regularly now that they have families of their own.
@@darthlaurelI believe I’m a 9… must be what works 😊. Not always easy but always worth it.😅
@@jenn4482 That's kind of you. 🙃
How refreshing! Thank you for your transparency, levity, and vulnerability. As a 2, I felt very connected to your experience and appreciative of the multiple points you made. And you had me laughing out loud throughout much of the video.
You are so welcome!
Fellow 2! I laughed through quite a bit as well😆
This is so helpful! I'm a fish-out-of-water Enneagram 9 who leads Children's Ministry but can't understand the push to get kids interested in Liturgical Worship by immersion in the worship services. My church is Presbyterian USA (PCUSA). Some adults (not me) are very nurtured by the deep history, liturgical language, etc., but I keep realizing that most of the kids in worship need a translator to even begin to understand what is going on. Your post will help me practice patience with the worship leaders and lovingly serve as a translator for the children - because I'm also a Sunday School teacher. 😊
9 PCUSA here and totally agree. I love the liturgy, but this a good reminder to speak to the children too. I found a good advent program for my family that really helped at Christmas a couple of years ago. But I hadnt thought to really connect it to the kids weekly.
I’m a 9 and it was spot on. Dealing with all of those reasons right now!
I will say as a 2w3 the reason I left the church was partly for what you said I gave everything I had and no one really appreciated me and when I left no one reached out….but the second and many reason I left religion as a whole and stopped believing was because I didn’t care that the church hurt me but watching the church repeatedly attack people that I knew and loved and cared about and condemn them because of who they loved or because the person they are didn’t match with the gender they were assigned….I couldn’t stand by and wouldn’t stand for it….my heart would never have let me live with myself if I had….
Thanks for this comment, sorry.
That is everything in a nutshell! I have a granddaughter who might be gay. I am so relieved that my daughter and son-in-law have chosen to leave our church because of the teachings to the LGBTQ community. “We love you, but you can’t ever participate in any gay behavior or you are not worthy to be a full fledged member. Oh, and you can’t get married, unless you marry someone of the opposite sex, and if that messes up your life and your poor spouses life, we will send you to some crazy therapist, who is willing to abide by our church rules!” No thanks!
Our pastor talked about the church being fellowship of the ppl not the building. Definitely love our church community. ❤ Getting plugged in has been amazing. We all need ppl to do life with.
It's wonderful to hear how much you value the sense of community! Building connections with others really does enrich our lives.
Thanks for this video, Dr. Tom! It’s a brave one. And what an awesome shirt!
Thank you for watching! I'm glad you found the video valuable. And I appreciate the compliment on my shirt!
I'm a secular Jew who works at a Unitarian church, and I definitely see a lot of the dynamics you've mentioned!
Dr Tom you are always “ spot on” in your analysis. I am always amazed. I am an 8. I mean an EIGHT- and you described me perfectly. I represent disabled children as a lawyer and have a three pound dog that I protect but I act exactly as you describe around my church community. Exactly. And I do not know how to have an “ inside voice” nor do I can. It was absolutely hilarious. Thank you.
Great video. For me as an 8, the thing that has been most problematic for me is that churches are often all about control which inevitably goes above and beyond the core of Jesus’ teachings.
Fantastic video!!! I'm a counter phobic six that's really healthy. It took a lot of work to find the counter phobic part out because it's not something that discussed often. I'd love to know your thoughts on the different behaviors between male and female counter phobic sixes and how that plays out in every day life. Thanks so much for this awesome channel! My wife and I have learned so much from you and truly appreciate your time and work that you put into this!
Well, you see. I'm an Infp-T 4w5 with four spirit guides. One is Jesús. But another is the Yoruba godess Oshun. So, I just read my oracle cards alone. And spend time in nature. Lololololol
I was so excited to see this in my feed and you didn’t disappoint…..great topic and great video… spot on, per usual😊
Yay, thank you!
Each moment:
life gets easier and easier.
I love my life.
I will no longer be trapped
in a fake prison.
I am setting myself free, NOW!
It hurt, and that's the past.
I now live in the present.
I am the phoenix
rising from the ashes!
Hello and good morning Tom thank you for the video
You are very welcome
Such a wonderful video and so needed in our world today! Thank you for sharing! Sadly so many have been hurt by people in their church. But God can heal broken hearts. ❤ (9w1)
Is there a difference in the way a counterphobic 6 vs a phobic 6 might experience leaving the church? My church experience is closer to the type 1, but in every other aspect of my life I am a 6. I didn’t relate to your examples of 6 in this. For instance the idea of togetherness and community across different cultures sounds great to me. I have always been uncomfortable with the idea that there is only one way to heaven and all other paths lead to hell so I’m not the type to complain about Halloween or Christmas trees because of pagan origins. My issues with the church revolves around my discomfort with the “our way is the ONLY way and everyone else in the entire world is wrong” attitude. Sixes tend to relate to and align themselves with the underdog so the idea that “x group is going to hell” because they are different than the norm is a dealbreaker for me. I miss the sense of community I got with the church but I can’t ignore the hypocrisy, marginalization of people who believe/love differently or stories of corruption (abuse and financial) I have heard.
Hey, thanks for sharing your story. It's tough when you feel disconnected from the community you once belonged to. I hear you.
Yep... you nailed the 5 good. I had a moment of hanging my head, lol. "Yep... yep that's is exactly my experience."
Yup! Between this and people being horribly fake (ie, seeing leadership say "all are welcome", but then telling someone who is disabled that they can go find another church) and then getting in trouble for bringing this to the attention of the leadership and told it wasn't okay to ask why they were so hypocritical...
Starting the year off strong 💪🏾
I love that! "Ahhh... Pastor... can I talk to you for a moment? I noticed there is a Christmas tree inn the sanctuary." I can totally see that happening.
I asked if my sainted grandmother would go to hell because she was Lutheran, and the nun said yes. That was the end of that.
Thanks for this engagement time on this analysis & the Enneagram, TOM. Well-invested insight on 'US' the human critter on this 3rd rock from the SUN, this time around. Keep on keeping on! It does make a difference as we chase our tails as creatures. You are appreciated and so are your investments as we engage this Blue-Green Marble one day at a time. You make a DIFFERENCE. semper fi
This is a great video, Tom! I related to almost every one! I still don’t know if I’m a 7 or a 4 or a 9. And I am evolving into a 5 and 6 as I get older!! And sometimes I am a big 8!
7w8 SO, never did church but used to be open, live and let live, and then I became went into my 5 and did research and became disillusioned and anti organized religion.
maybe not related
I once heard an enneagram coach said many 7 will turn towards buddism as a quest to find eternal happiness.
I'm a 7 and this is exactly why i turned towards buddism. all the external stimulus are short lived (parties, adventures etc). After the hype , i need to chase down the endless activities to keep me happy.
Christianity on the other hand condemn and despise other religion, which i humbly disagree.
Buddism is to find internal happiness and be watchful to the present. It is also about meditation, which a 7 much needed
Been loving your videos recently. As an 8, and as someone interested in a 6, I've been focused on those types. Anyway, the topic here really had my interest, and I admittedly just went directly to the 8 section. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool atheist (raised Catholic), so I wanted to see if the rationale/feeling you presented would resonate with me. At first, it didn't, because you seemed to be referring to the leaving of a particular church, whereas for me, it was the leaving and rejecting the very concept of a god. But then you highlighted the fact that an 8 is likely to see and call out bullshit. And really, that's exactly what my experience was. And, wow, come to think of it, it does come back to the idea of being controlled by someone else.
One of my earliest memories, regarding religion, is my reaction to first Confession (probably around 10 y.o.?). And I remember being instructed that, or at least feeling as if I must, make up a sin to confess, if I had no sins. Which, while I didn't use the word at that age, I certainly considered bullshit. And then my doubts and questions continued over the next years, until finally I told my father, the staunch Catholic, that I was no longer going to church, etc. At 15 I declared my independence, and, yes, it had largely to do with a zealous anger that I was being made to show up for something that I thought was bullshit. And that I was being controlled by my father.
Funny enough, I think my father's an 8 too. 😀
Thank you for sharing your journey! It's fascinating how our experiences shape our beliefs, and I appreciate your insights on the Eights. It sounds like you've really found your own path...
I am a 4 whose been upset with the church I've been going to for almost 4 years now and you just described exactly what I've been going through. I still don't really feel apart of my church family in any meaningful way and I'm past done expecting to so I'm out.
Ok best video you’ve made, sir! I really enjoyed this and needed this because I am, as you say, INCREDIBLY burnt out with churches, but i wonder how many people are burnt out with me and they don’t leave🥲😂 Thanks for the video!
One can go to church every day, memorize the Bible backward and forwards, go on overseas missions, do good deeds, tithe 100% of one's income, whatever, but at the end of the day, those hidden programs, that suppressed trauma and those repressed emotions are still running the show just like they always have and nothing in any church is going to change that. That is why I left.
Thanks for this comment.
@@twlahue Not only that, the same Evangelicals who’ve spent decades demonizing those who reject the Church are now the single most compelling reason for them to do so.
Fantastic analysis, Dr. Tom! Really great! Thanks! Happy New Year from one 7 to another🎉🥳🎉
I’m a 4w5. You described me to a ‘T.’ Fortunately, I found a great church where I feel right at home. 💒
damm quite amazingly spot on for 4s and even more so why i personally went more with wiccan
and even more so my 5 wing
I'm a 4 and I can relate to 4, 5, and 1.
Spot on! 👍🏻
Thanks!
An 11th reason is that no spiritual growth is possible because the church only offers "dairy foods." (I'm a 4w3 as getting older growing into her 5wing)
Bro. you can't quit church. You're the pastor!! I think that which eneagram was a particular Bible character would be cool. Like David was like a 5 w6 or something. Or Paul was a 1. Or pastors are usually ____. Prophets are usually _____. Evangelists are usually ____.
AH! We're searching for a church. So true. I'm a 7, hubby is an 8
You’re looking rather psychedelic tonight. So that’s exciting :)
I am a four and aside from not making connections/friends the church had a public stance on abortion and it just drove the nail in the coffin 😂
The command to leadership is: preach the Word. In season is what everybody and their dog wants you to preach. Out of season is when they want to vote you out. Pastors have a standard established in the Pastoral Epistles. What you desire, regarding getting "real" with each other is best done in a home cell group or something similar. If you throw out biblical standards, then it doesn't matter how you do it, because you are not a church and you're not part of the church: so you can sit naked, bow-legged on the floor and stare at each other's navel or whatever...because you are not really IN Christ's body. You are in Frank's body or Jeff's body or Suzie's body. And you meet to glorify that particular body. In that case, you can compile your own particular "bible" because the Bible has been esteemed as irrelevant to you. Call it the Book of Frank, etc. But just be real and up front about what you're doing, because some of us don't have the time to waste. Ie. I ain't getting any younger and me holding hands with you and singing Kumbaiya is not doing the deal.
Preach The Word
These last few years can explain why every “ type” left the church. None of them want to continue living a lie and being awful examples of human beings.
Here is the church.
Here is the steeple.
Open the doors
And see all the people.
Think I know what you’re gonna say for 5.
🤣
Why would anyone go to that judgmental place anyway 😂
en vva
Hypocrisy. Yep
I stopped going to church because I stopped believing in God
Are you by any chance a one or eight?
@@ChimmyQ I watched like three seconds of this video idk what that means
@@djpearson5722 is that so? You'd think an all powerful deity with unlimited power could give me a phone call once in a while 🤔
Praying none of you quit church