MY opinion on Hunter specifically BM Hunter and what they bring to a raid group is personal Mobility that makes them great for doing mechanics. So while it is not necessarily a raid buff or raid debuff thing, I feel like Having a class that can do 100% of their dps while on the move at Range was sort of the allure of bringing one. Now I get why, Really really serious raid guilds and specifically RWF guilds would not see this as a real bonus. Because all of their raiders are exceptional at mechanics and min maxing their dps while doing it. Also they can manipulate their group composition to have classes that synergize very well with an encounter. But for a regular guild, having someone that can dps and take on the "kite this thing, run over here and click this thing, run the gauntlet" Hunters are well equipped for and can take that responsibility off your other dpsers so they can pump more
I actually am pretty sure that's the universally accepted consensus on the spec, except RWF guilds love them as long as they can pull their weight because they have to meet a dps check. They love them for mechanics though.
No shit. Guilds outside of RWF do not need to min-max their composition down to every last member, because they'll be overgeared by the time they get to the bosses anyway, and can use subpar classes/specs or sacrifice some DPS to do mechanics. This whole comment's pointless, everybody already knows this. The point of viability only matters in an RWF context.
@@Frawt First off, relax. No idea why you are so angry. Second, everyone does not already know this, and I am just countering the fact that these content creators keep saying that Hunter does not bring a tradtional raid buff or utility, when the fact that they are the mechanics class IS their utility. (not everyone knows this). I never said Guilds outside of RWF need to min max compositions, just merely stated that Hunters have value outside of RWF guilds BECAUSE they can do mechanics easier
Dratnos' comment on it not effecting the race was a little dumb, after Roger saying the boss wouldn't have died that reset (max said it would have died that sunday or monday, and said 3 healing did looked like the option), and for a lot of optimizations to be made. That nerf DEFINITELY affected the race. There was at least another few hundred pulls for each guild left
Yeah Dratnos' integrity is shifted quite a bit when he gets buttered up with a casting job. He did a lot of cheerleading in this instead of actually interviewing.
@@booradley6832 I'm not sure. Maybe he's just human and imperfect. He said some stuff throught the years that I was like "wtf are you talking about???".
I think he meant that the result didnt get effected as the team in the lead won after the nerf but it absolutely killed any chance of a comeback for liquid, they weren't that far behind.
The only way to make guilds like echo happy, is the Ulduar approach. This ofc will change the RWF essence, but it may make mythic raiding more approachable.
I think they had the fight tuned to not die before the first reset, The easiest way to make sure is to have a couple things basically impossible. They were tuning the fight daily I dont think this is as big a deal since they were on top of hotfixes
Also the solution to not having a race end because of a nerf isnt global release. Having nerfs/hotfixes be done in a specific timeframe that everyone is aware of. The biggest thing is... dont have a raid release so close to Christmas. This was a mess because of the release date, the planning on blizzards end was piss poor here.
What I don’t get is how a company like blizz doesn’t have a mythic raiding team of their own to test out these raids for tuning purposes, multiple 50% nerfs??? If they are going to be serious about content updates and have this huge staff now, they need to have a real play test dept similar to what riot games has, I’m not saying it’s perfect or a catch all answer but I guarantee it will prevent a repeat of this mess.
Are you reallly that surprised that the company that can't balance classes for shit, with some specs being 30%+ behind some others in damage, can't balance raids for shit? lol There are literally specs that are completely useless and abandoned for a whole expac.
@@semi6544 I'd say so. It's not as big in some games but in general Europe has a better pro gamer scene. The games I follow Europe is pretty clearly better although the gap between regions isn't always the same. SC2, LoL, WoW are all EU dominant (compared to the Americas at least, WoW is the only one where the West is dominant).
It’s hilarious that roger has been doing race to world first for so many years and he still has hope that blizzard can get their tuning anywhere close to right on the first live try, especially after they canned so many employees.
The only way to really fix splits EXCEPT first tier is to have Mythic gear from previous tier on par/better than Heroic from next. It would mean very small ilvl jumps from start to end of expansion though. It would make Normal raid items from last tier the same as mythic from first.
@@Sajxi The nerf honestly saved Liquid from being embarrassed even harder. That was their last day raiding. There's no chance in hell they were getting it from 14% to a kill in one day. Echo had that entire day + the 24th as they weren't stopping for Christmas. Echo would have killed it either late 23rd or at some point 24th without any nerfs needed while Liquid went home and enjoyed Christmas then killed it post reset. The nerf actually makes it look like they were close to a kill compared to Echo when they were not.
@@Sajxi saw them kill it live. I was jumping around and very excited, a god pull! But then I learned P3 was nerfed and it all made sense. So regardless of who else was competing, the nerf influenced the win in my personal opinion and cheapened the kill
@@themInterwebs I mean that pull was insane anyway, if it hadn't been nerfed it would have been a big improvement over their previous best pull. It probably wouldn't have been a kill but they were still playing so much better than liquid. if it cheapened the kill to you that's fair enough but it really didn't feel like that for me.
Guys, its just a one horse race. I watched both guilds and echo is just on another level. They are much more professional and have better players and raidlead over all. Without the 12 hours early start it would be very boring i think.
-On the splits thing. There is nothing blizzard can do to stop the top guilds from doing them. You can't change the system for 2 guilds in the world LOL. The best thing I can think of is take the top 10 or so guilds and put them on a tournament realm and each player can bring 2 classes each and may the best team win. Watching splits is boring but since it leads to a possible advantage nothing will stop them from doing as many splits as they can outside of what I mentioned.
@@ChaseAkaChaos Yeah I was saying the same thing, Give them a base level tier set power bonus that upgrades as ilvl and tier pieces go up. nobody misses the fundamental power gain of the tier bonus itself but they do still show power progression with ilvl.
Only way i can see mythic race get better when it comes to loot without creating a system that affects every other player is to have the race happen on ptr server without norm/hc activated and just give all players whatever gear they want at a ilvl blizzard balanced the boss to. Just have it active for like x weeks and if your guild is not interested in racing you just do it on the normal servers. Don't know enough to be sure if this has any extreme drawbacks though. Addon: A announcment / post about what went wrong with balance would be really really cool from blizzard and would go a long way when it comes to transparency. Maybe a post-mortem from blizzard or something? Hotfixes: Announced hotfixes ahead of time. What they are, when they will hit should be praxis. People arguing that all this doesnt affect more than a few players: As a person working with marketing, a good raidlaunch and the money they could put in compared to what they would get out of it is huge. You might only hit "wow players" but you will hit wow players that might have unsubbed last tier, last expansion etc. Ask Valve what the international or a major does for player numbers in CS/Dota.
Fixing split runs just needs one solution, and it fixes far more than just split runs: deterministic loot. Remove RNG, respect the player, retain the player. Each boss killed in raid drops a currency, same amount for all players, different currency for each difficulty,. Killing a boss on a set difficulty unlocks the purchase of their items. There are so many advantages to this: * You can target loot - RNG in gear acquisition is not fun, there's no imbalance in RWF as a result of one team getting lucky with tier/trinkets/weapons * No more useless loot - WoW is not an ARPG, it does not have repeatable content, this kind of thing shouldn't exist * You will know WHEN YOUR CHARACTER IS FINISHED - RNG means you could feel you have to put weeks more into a character than you want to, simply for them to feel "finished" * Splits will be measured in hours, not days * If applied to m+ and the great vault, it also means there's no advantage to running 6 copies of the same character for each raider Again: Remove RNG, respect the player, retain the player.
The splits have always been a thing, we just never saw the first week of splits during RWF before. But with Vault they released all 3 raid tiers the same day. In the past they release Mythic a week later, so RWF starts a week later when they get into Mythic. It really is a "this time" thing, and it is explainable by the way blizzard released the raid. Won't be like that next time if they don't release mythic the same reset as normal and heroic.
@@yolowolf24 this tier was an experiment with releasing all difficulties at the same time. blizz asked the community if they’d want to try that and the community more or less said “sure why not”. splits ended up being worse, but regardless splits will always be a thing. There’s no real solution to the issue.
@@peen2804 Is that not what i said? Also, no it was not a community thing, it was a RWF thing. They released the difficulties at the same time in an attempt to have the race over before Christmas, which it was. Max talked about this in his post RWF video. Like him, Scripe also said that Echo was lucky when the nerf was put into place, cause either team would have downed it after a few pulls. Which Echo did for first, and Liquid did after they woke up and started raiding as well.
@@peen2804 RWF things aren't "community" things, they are RWF things. That is less then 1% of the players of the game that have ever, or will ever compete for that title.. They also get to test the majority of the raids before they come out, usually just missing the mythic mechanics on last bosses...
For me the race was very underwhelming. I was checking echo's progress on the raszageth every couple of hours, so when they would be close like the previous boss, i would tune in to watch until the kill. And guess what. It was a steady progression every time i checked and then bam the boss is deadge. At first i was happy they won, maybe they just played out of their mind, but when i learned that there was a hotfix, i /roll my eyes so hard...
I mean, the hotfix might have been unfortunate timing wise but it would have always been bad for someone, echo played better than liquid regardless so I'd say the eventual outcome was the right one anyway.
Echo managed to reach the final phase on a consistent basis, unlike limit..... after echo killed it, limit chain pulled it for 3+ hours and still didnt kill it... so yeah... the best guild did kill it first, imho.
Super hot take here, but think about it for a second. What if the first 5 guild groups to kill any bosses on mythic difficulty just gave every possible item to every player in the group.
0.000% of the tuning comes from raid testing. Raid testing comes with fixed ilvls. They tune bosses off of the date they collect when guilds kill the previous bosses on live. You can't get realistic damage numbers from raid testing.
Nah man clearly when you have open PTR testing you're gonna know the figures to match the output of the top .1% of players after doing their best to prepare every tiny detail (and hide that from everyone else) based on how some guy on your forums and his guild who are still stuck on heroic from 3 tiers ago do.
When you control the games design, all the metrics, know the theoretical maximums for the allotted gear and all talent combinations, the strategy and the potential output of an entire group in various configurations, balancing should not even be hard. Bugfixes as a problem? Sure. Having 19 on a wing and still getting overrun? Says they don't know how to read their own data. Blizzard knows everything about the game without requiring diagnostic tools or simulations, and still hasnt been able to get the application of simple math- Formula single target: (average 95th percentile one minute damage of every classes' output x 13) (Number of minutes of fight) x1.1 for healer and tank input= boss health. Adjust down up to 30% based on amount of interaction mechanics require. pause number of minutes of fight counter during non-interactive intermissions. Increase up to 15% to create hard dps check. Creating the rest of the fights its a simple adjustment of metrics *as far as boss health goes* Other mechanics are incredibly demanding and hard to tune. Getting the amount of boss HP incorrect after 18 years? Blizzard is basically a deadbeat dad for how little it understands the thing it brought into this world. There is one inviolable truth from this though.....Badtake you have the most accurate name in all of RUclips.
You know other MMOs are able to tune raids in-house without any outside testing my dude... Rogers literally played a game that is able to do just that, FF14. The FF14 team completes the raids themselves before they can be released to the public.
That’s what I really hate about loot , dang bow and no hunters why am I looting a bow as a pally but my hunter getting plate ??? I rather see no loot the a damm item that you can’t even trade
Hot take: The nerf was the best scenario for Liquid. That was their last day of raiding and their best % after an entire raid day was 14% with a "clean" pull and no deaths. Echo woke up and did 8% on a scuffed pull in a few hours. Liquid had no chance in hell of getting that boss from 14% to 0 in one day. No fucking way. Echo meanwhile were both much closer to a kill AND were not stopping for Christmas. So in reality Liquid would have gave up for Christmas and probably killed it post reset whereas Echo kill it on the 23rd or 24th. The nerf made the race look closer than it was. Echo were firmly in the driver's seat and going to win by an even bigger margin if the boss didn't get nerfed.
What a joke response, when liquid was at 14% the night before echo was literally behind them, they were further through the fight. This race was back and forth the couple days before the kill. Calling this the best scenario for Liquid is both ignorant, and disrespectful of how they played and what they have done in the past.
Exactly, liquid was closer before they went to bed and it was going back and forth. Yes, the race would have gone through the holidays but it would have been really tight all the way to the end. There was no clear winner until the nerfs.
Liquids first pull was 8% that day, no warm up. If the nerf happens two hours later when both guilds are warm. It would have been a toss-up to who won.
No more ice skating please, that "ice" is so heckin bugged on DH. It breaks my fel rush and it breaks gliding... But I know they don't care because they don't fix any bugs related to DH animations and movement for years.
@@kye4216 you must be a troll or something. You can give someone a 16 hour head start in a footrace to the other side of the bridge and then have security block the entrance then open it up right when their competition arrives and that doesnt make the previous 16 hours equal.
@@booradley6832 expect this isn’t a race across a bridge. Even if Liquid spent 16 hours fighting a boss that wasn’t killable they are still getting reps on the boss and learning how to play it.
Blizzard doesn't care about rwf, they won't create a dedicated server to host a community competition they have no interest in. It's sad, the viewership is surprisingly high, but that's how it is.
I thought about this as well. But when it comes to them gearing and the community involvement, I think it would hurt the economies of each realm each team is on. As they have a massive amount of people that just like helping each guild for gold or whatever, farming herbs and all that junk. It would make a fair and balanced race but it also takes away a lot from the community.
@@fastydave No, but considering wow is a rather niche game, seeing big eSports orgs getting involved and a viewership relatively high, Blizzard probably could gain by giving a shit.
Why would liquid continue to try very hard after that? They got blindsided and had no reason to "push" themselves. Max is still dazed by it even today.
@@booradley6832 ok then what about before the nerf with Echo having better boss health % in much fewer pulls? And even if they were disheartened why would they want to waste a mouth 4 hours killing the boss? Obviously they were still trying to kill it.
Echo was doing better on the boss it seems... but u never know till its over often on the last bosses they do some back in forths. It would gone to whoever could find a strat to get the damage for p3. Instead they over nerfed and handed it over to echo was really to bad. Cuz I'd rather just see echo win blasting. Def no discredit to how they played Just hard badddd take by dratnos to say that...
There is literally no reason to not have global release, other than to just be dickheads. SE is in motherfucking Japan and they are able to release FF14 in all regions at the same time, when neither NA and EU timezones match well with JP.
My hot take, get rid of tier. I get that people like it but I think it creates more problems than it is worth. It sucks as a regular guild to be stressed about tier and have to go back to clearing normal and heroic or even LFR bosses to try to scrape tier. It makes your character feel like shit if you don't get help from the vault, it causes tension in lower guilds about who is getting the tier, it makes players who only want to play M+ giga fucked and (the least important but still relevant point) it makes the splits issue in RWF worse.
ehhh...maybe a bit too far? The catchup system has made it good for M+ generally now, but what about a system that takes the best of both? Make it so you get a skeleton tier week 1, or even get it via some sort of enhancement, enchant set. Week 1 you can easily complete your gear set to get your tier bonus but its raid finder quality. As you collect higher ilvl pieces of the tier gear, and increased ilvl overall, it will increase the power of the benefit to scale. This way nobody gets shafted by RNG but also someone "Blessed" by RNG will only see an incremental improvement until later in the season when they can truly fill their set out. Personally I love tier because I dont play as competitive anymore and because its historically been one of the best test beds for new mechanics and talents that we would see reappear fleshed out in future expansions. Blizzard has proven they need a live trial to get things right. The adaptations to gameplay style and ability to test new combinations is something I really love though, and has seeen numerous improvements in the game take form through this over the years.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Why is tettle’s couch facing away from the TV?
Probably running mythics mid podcast
Probably because most of the time spent isn’t on the couch and instead is spent sitting alone in the chair with multiple monitors anyways lol
Lmao
He's just so used to streaming he assumes everyone wants to watch him instead of the TV
Boomkin brain
Thanks for the recap coverage throughout the race. Good to see Roger again :)
MY opinion on Hunter specifically BM Hunter and what they bring to a raid group is personal Mobility that makes them great for doing mechanics. So while it is not necessarily a raid buff or raid debuff thing, I feel like Having a class that can do 100% of their dps while on the move at Range was sort of the allure of bringing one. Now I get why, Really really serious raid guilds and specifically RWF guilds would not see this as a real bonus. Because all of their raiders are exceptional at mechanics and min maxing their dps while doing it. Also they can manipulate their group composition to have classes that synergize very well with an encounter. But for a regular guild, having someone that can dps and take on the "kite this thing, run over here and click this thing, run the gauntlet" Hunters are well equipped for and can take that responsibility off your other dpsers so they can pump more
I actually am pretty sure that's the universally accepted consensus on the spec, except RWF guilds love them as long as they can pull their weight because they have to meet a dps check. They love them for mechanics though.
No shit. Guilds outside of RWF do not need to min-max their composition down to every last member, because they'll be overgeared by the time they get to the bosses anyway, and can use subpar classes/specs or sacrifice some DPS to do mechanics. This whole comment's pointless, everybody already knows this. The point of viability only matters in an RWF context.
@@Frawt First off, relax. No idea why you are so angry. Second, everyone does not already know this, and I am just countering the fact that these content creators keep saying that Hunter does not bring a tradtional raid buff or utility, when the fact that they are the mechanics class IS their utility. (not everyone knows this). I never said Guilds outside of RWF need to min max compositions, just merely stated that Hunters have value outside of RWF guilds BECAUSE they can do mechanics easier
Cool talk, I wish you would have talked about them doing a bunch of m+ though
Dratnos' comment on it not effecting the race was a little dumb, after Roger saying the boss wouldn't have died that reset (max said it would have died that sunday or monday, and said 3 healing did looked like the option), and for a lot of optimizations to be made. That nerf DEFINITELY affected the race. There was at least another few hundred pulls for each guild left
Yeah Dratnos' integrity is shifted quite a bit when he gets buttered up with a casting job. He did a lot of cheerleading in this instead of actually interviewing.
@@booradley6832 I'm not sure. Maybe he's just human and imperfect. He said some stuff throught the years that I was like "wtf are you talking about???".
I think he meant that the result didnt get effected as the team in the lead won after the nerf but it absolutely killed any chance of a comeback for liquid, they weren't that far behind.
@@MrFeelingperky yea. Havind reached that part of the vid and heard what he said, it's totally that.
Definitely scuffed for him to play it off like that
The only way to make guilds like echo happy, is the Ulduar approach. This ofc will change the RWF essence, but it may make mythic raiding more approachable.
Great episode, love roger
I think they had the fight tuned to not die before the first reset, The easiest way to make sure is to have a couple things basically impossible. They were tuning the fight daily I dont think this is as big a deal since they were on top of hotfixes
Also the solution to not having a race end because of a nerf isnt global release. Having nerfs/hotfixes be done in a specific timeframe that everyone is aware of. The biggest thing is... dont have a raid release so close to Christmas. This was a mess because of the release date, the planning on blizzards end was piss poor here.
been waiting forever for this! lol ty boys
What I don’t get is how a company like blizz doesn’t have a mythic raiding team of their own to test out these raids for tuning purposes, multiple 50% nerfs??? If they are going to be serious about content updates and have this huge staff now, they need to have a real play test dept similar to what riot games has, I’m not saying it’s perfect or a catch all answer but I guarantee it will prevent a repeat of this mess.
Are you reallly that surprised that the company that can't balance classes for shit, with some specs being 30%+ behind some others in damage, can't balance raids for shit? lol
There are literally specs that are completely useless and abandoned for a whole expac.
Not gonna lie, I keep stop playing wow. And everytime the world first happens, I come crawling back.
DRAT I NEED WEEKLY ROUTES MAN IM DYIN OUT HERE
(jk when you have time haha)
Who finished 3rd?
Method
@@ironsideeve2955 -- Quick question. I don't really follow most video games. Is Europe better at video games than Americans in general?
@@semi6544 I'd say so. It's not as big in some games but in general Europe has a better pro gamer scene. The games I follow Europe is pretty clearly better although the gap between regions isn't always the same. SC2, LoL, WoW are all EU dominant (compared to the Americas at least, WoW is the only one where the West is dominant).
It’s hilarious that roger has been doing race to world first for so many years and he still has hope that blizzard can get their tuning anywhere close to right on the first live try, especially after they canned so many employees.
Wtf are you talking about? They literally doubled their staff
The only way to really fix splits EXCEPT first tier is to have Mythic gear from previous tier on par/better than Heroic from next. It would mean very small ilvl jumps from start to end of expansion though. It would make Normal raid items from last tier the same as mythic from first.
And that would only affect the top guilds… makes zero sense
A kill 15 minutes post nerf definitely feels weirdge
Would've been weirder if Liquid also killed it within 2 pulls, but they took several hours.
@@Sajxi The nerf honestly saved Liquid from being embarrassed even harder. That was their last day raiding. There's no chance in hell they were getting it from 14% to a kill in one day. Echo had that entire day + the 24th as they weren't stopping for Christmas. Echo would have killed it either late 23rd or at some point 24th without any nerfs needed while Liquid went home and enjoyed Christmas then killed it post reset.
The nerf actually makes it look like they were close to a kill compared to Echo when they were not.
@@Sajxi saw them kill it live. I was jumping around and very excited, a god pull! But then I learned P3 was nerfed and it all made sense. So regardless of who else was competing, the nerf influenced the win in my personal opinion and cheapened the kill
@@themInterwebs I mean that pull was insane anyway, if it hadn't been nerfed it would have been a big improvement over their previous best pull. It probably wouldn't have been a kill but they were still playing so much better than liquid. if it cheapened the kill to you that's fair enough but it really didn't feel like that for me.
They did a perfect pull and killed the boss. What more do you need?
Guys, its just a one horse race. I watched both guilds and echo is just on another level. They are much more professional and have better players and raidlead over all. Without the 12 hours early start it would be very boring i think.
-On the splits thing. There is nothing blizzard can do to stop the top guilds from doing them. You can't change the system for 2 guilds in the world LOL. The best thing I can think of is take the top 10 or so guilds and put them on a tournament realm and each player can bring 2 classes each and may the best team win. Watching splits is boring but since it leads to a possible advantage nothing will stop them from doing as many splits as they can outside of what I mentioned.
just release the creation catalyst when the raid comes out. then you have to do waaaaaaaaay less splits
@@ChaseAkaChaos Yeah I was saying the same thing, Give them a base level tier set power bonus that upgrades as ilvl and tier pieces go up. nobody misses the fundamental power gain of the tier bonus itself but they do still show power progression with ilvl.
The last boss was almost certainly purposefully impossible. Blizzard isn’t that bad at math; they just didn’t want you to kill it week 1.
Probably the worst race as a viewer. More splits due to raid release and the worst ending to a race ever. Razageth was an amazing boss to watch too.
I agree - I was glued to the monitor for SotFO but this one was a snooze fest
Only way i can see mythic race get better when it comes to loot without creating a system that affects every other player is to have the race happen on ptr server without norm/hc activated and just give all players whatever gear they want at a ilvl blizzard balanced the boss to.
Just have it active for like x weeks and if your guild is not interested in racing you just do it on the normal servers.
Don't know enough to be sure if this has any extreme drawbacks though.
Addon: A announcment / post about what went wrong with balance would be really really cool from blizzard and would go a long way when it comes to transparency. Maybe a post-mortem from blizzard or something?
Hotfixes: Announced hotfixes ahead of time. What they are, when they will hit should be praxis.
People arguing that all this doesnt affect more than a few players: As a person working with marketing, a good raidlaunch and the money they could put in compared to what they would get out of it is huge. You might only hit "wow players" but you will hit wow players that might have unsubbed last tier, last expansion etc. Ask Valve what the international or a major does for player numbers in CS/Dota.
Fixing split runs just needs one solution, and it fixes far more than just split runs: deterministic loot. Remove RNG, respect the player, retain the player.
Each boss killed in raid drops a currency, same amount for all players, different currency for each difficulty,.
Killing a boss on a set difficulty unlocks the purchase of their items.
There are so many advantages to this:
* You can target loot - RNG in gear acquisition is not fun, there's no imbalance in RWF as a result of one team getting lucky with tier/trinkets/weapons
* No more useless loot - WoW is not an ARPG, it does not have repeatable content, this kind of thing shouldn't exist
* You will know WHEN YOUR CHARACTER IS FINISHED - RNG means you could feel you have to put weeks more into a character than you want to, simply for them to feel "finished"
* Splits will be measured in hours, not days
* If applied to m+ and the great vault, it also means there's no advantage to running 6 copies of the same character for each raider
Again: Remove RNG, respect the player, retain the player.
This is gross.
Rng is not inherently not fun and M+ is literally repeatable content by nature.
Find some one that looks at you the same way as Dratnos is looking att Rogerbrown
Hope day 1-3 splits won’t always be a thing, kills the race viewership right off the bat
When tier exists it always will be. It's not that difficult of a concept to understand.
The splits have always been a thing, we just never saw the first week of splits during RWF before. But with Vault they released all 3 raid tiers the same day. In the past they release Mythic a week later, so RWF starts a week later when they get into Mythic. It really is a "this time" thing, and it is explainable by the way blizzard released the raid. Won't be like that next time if they don't release mythic the same reset as normal and heroic.
@@yolowolf24 this tier was an experiment with releasing all difficulties at the same time. blizz asked the community if they’d want to try that and the community more or less said “sure why not”. splits ended up being worse, but regardless splits will always be a thing. There’s no real solution to the issue.
@@peen2804 Is that not what i said? Also, no it was not a community thing, it was a RWF thing. They released the difficulties at the same time in an attempt to have the race over before Christmas, which it was. Max talked about this in his post RWF video. Like him, Scripe also said that Echo was lucky when the nerf was put into place, cause either team would have downed it after a few pulls. Which Echo did for first, and Liquid did after they woke up and started raiding as well.
@@peen2804 RWF things aren't "community" things, they are RWF things. That is less then 1% of the players of the game that have ever, or will ever compete for that title.. They also get to test the majority of the raids before they come out, usually just missing the mythic mechanics on last bosses...
For me the race was very underwhelming. I was checking echo's progress on the raszageth every couple of hours, so when they would be close like the previous boss, i would tune in to watch until the kill. And guess what. It was a steady progression every time i checked and then bam the boss is deadge. At first i was happy they won, maybe they just played out of their mind, but when i learned that there was a hotfix, i /roll my eyes so hard...
I mean, the hotfix might have been unfortunate timing wise but it would have always been bad for someone, echo played better than liquid regardless so I'd say the eventual outcome was the right one anyway.
Echo managed to reach the final phase on a consistent basis, unlike limit..... after echo killed it, limit chain pulled it for 3+ hours and still didnt kill it... so yeah... the best guild did kill it first, imho.
Super hot take here, but think about it for a second. What if the first 5 guild groups to kill any bosses on mythic difficulty just gave every possible item to every player in the group.
Don't test the boss.....how was this timing so bad. Umm hate to break it to you
0.000% of the tuning comes from raid testing. Raid testing comes with fixed ilvls. They tune bosses off of the date they collect when guilds kill the previous bosses on live. You can't get realistic damage numbers from raid testing.
Nah man clearly when you have open PTR testing you're gonna know the figures to match the output of the top .1% of players after doing their best to prepare every tiny detail (and hide that from everyone else) based on how some guy on your forums and his guild who are still stuck on heroic from 3 tiers ago do.
Been playing MM as my main alt. I it's fun, It does numbers, but the MM talent tree is down right trash. needs a top to bottom rework. Fight me.
60k to put rank 3 haste proc on a weapon is literal dog water
Is this guy simultaneously complaining about a lack of tuning but happy that the end boss isn't PTR tested? Mental gymnastics
You can get the tuning close enough with internal testing.
When you control the games design, all the metrics, know the theoretical maximums for the allotted gear and all talent combinations, the strategy and the potential output of an entire group in various configurations, balancing should not even be hard. Bugfixes as a problem? Sure. Having 19 on a wing and still getting overrun? Says they don't know how to read their own data. Blizzard knows everything about the game without requiring diagnostic tools or simulations, and still hasnt been able to get the application of simple math-
Formula single target: (average 95th percentile one minute damage of every classes' output x 13) (Number of minutes of fight) x1.1 for healer and tank input= boss health. Adjust down up to 30% based on amount of interaction mechanics require. pause number of minutes of fight counter during non-interactive intermissions. Increase up to 15% to create hard dps check.
Creating the rest of the fights its a simple adjustment of metrics *as far as boss health goes*
Other mechanics are incredibly demanding and hard to tune. Getting the amount of boss HP incorrect after 18 years? Blizzard is basically a deadbeat dad for how little it understands the thing it brought into this world.
There is one inviolable truth from this though.....Badtake you have the most accurate name in all of RUclips.
You know other MMOs are able to tune raids in-house without any outside testing my dude...
Rogers literally played a game that is able to do just that, FF14. The FF14 team completes the raids themselves before they can be released to the public.
That’s what I really hate about loot , dang bow and no hunters why am I looting a bow as a pally but my hunter getting plate ??? I rather see no loot the a damm item that you can’t even trade
You must be new to how loot originally worked in this game. It's fine, deal with it.
@@fastydave that doesn't mean that it's good.
I actually preferred personal loot
@@fastydave old doesn’t mean good lol it’s not that it’s bad rng it’s just lazy design and of course old noob gets happy with any lazy product :)
Hot take: The nerf was the best scenario for Liquid. That was their last day of raiding and their best % after an entire raid day was 14% with a "clean" pull and no deaths. Echo woke up and did 8% on a scuffed pull in a few hours.
Liquid had no chance in hell of getting that boss from 14% to 0 in one day. No fucking way. Echo meanwhile were both much closer to a kill AND were not stopping for Christmas. So in reality Liquid would have gave up for Christmas and probably killed it post reset whereas Echo kill it on the 23rd or 24th. The nerf made the race look closer than it was. Echo were firmly in the driver's seat and going to win by an even bigger margin if the boss didn't get nerfed.
What a joke response, when liquid was at 14% the night before echo was literally behind them, they were further through the fight. This race was back and forth the couple days before the kill. Calling this the best scenario for Liquid is both ignorant, and disrespectful of how they played and what they have done in the past.
Exactly, liquid was closer before they went to bed and it was going back and forth. Yes, the race would have gone through the holidays but it would have been really tight all the way to the end. There was no clear winner until the nerfs.
Liquids first pull was 8% that day, no warm up. If the nerf happens two hours later when both guilds are warm. It would have been a toss-up to who won.
uuuuuuhhhhhhh
No more ice skating please, that "ice" is so heckin bugged on DH. It breaks my fel rush and it breaks gliding... But I know they don't care because they don't fix any bugs related to DH animations and movement for years.
There is a gearing system that removes splits completely: fixed stats in mythic raids.
worst race yet. Lamest ending ever. RIP
If you want it to be harder and you don't want to do splits you could've, and hear me out here.... not done splits.
Then you just lose to guilds that do splits...
@@goodshowmanythanks Imagine having your cake and eating it too though
If you don’t do everything to win, you are not in the competition. That easy. So no option to not do splits.
@@talkpopgen I don't think you know that saying actually means my dude... lol
how is this competitive even ...its like more luck based who ever gets the refresh/reset on nerf night kills it zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Obviously not since Liquid have a 16 hour head start and still lost
@@kye4216 zzzzzzzz that means nothing when a boss is nerFd by 50 percent on reset
@@kye4216 you must be a troll or something.
You can give someone a 16 hour head start in a footrace to the other side of the bridge and then have security block the entrance then open it up right when their competition arrives and that doesnt make the previous 16 hours equal.
@@MegaKrazy123 funny how even after the nerf Liquid took 4 hours to kill it.
@@booradley6832 expect this isn’t a race across a bridge. Even if Liquid spent 16 hours fighting a boss that wasn’t killable they are still getting reps on the boss and learning how to play it.
I think they should move RWF to the tournament realm and let the raiders have all the gear they want so we get a truer race.
Blizzard doesn't care about rwf, they won't create a dedicated server to host a community competition they have no interest in. It's sad, the viewership is surprisingly high, but that's how it is.
I thought about this as well. But when it comes to them gearing and the community involvement, I think it would hurt the economies of each realm each team is on. As they have a massive amount of people that just like helping each guild for gold or whatever, farming herbs and all that junk. It would make a fair and balanced race but it also takes away a lot from the community.
@@1ena585 The viewership isn't really that high though in the grand scheme of things. Most people give zero f's about RTWF
@@fastydave No, but considering wow is a rather niche game, seeing big eSports orgs getting involved and a viewership relatively high, Blizzard probably could gain by giving a shit.
yeah Race is dead to me after this
Most boring race ever.
Such a cringe comment to say it didn't impact the race.... dratnos with the hot echo fan boy take
Echo were clearly better. Took Liquid hours to kill it even after the huge nerfs
Why would liquid continue to try very hard after that? They got blindsided and had no reason to "push" themselves. Max is still dazed by it even today.
@@booradley6832 ok then what about before the nerf with Echo having better boss health % in much fewer pulls?
And even if they were disheartened why would they want to waste a mouth 4 hours killing the boss? Obviously they were still trying to kill it.
Echo was doing better on the boss it seems... but u never know till its over often on the last bosses they do some back in forths. It would gone to whoever could find a strat to get the damage for p3. Instead they over nerfed and handed it over to echo was really to bad. Cuz I'd rather just see echo win blasting. Def no discredit to how they played
Just hard badddd take by dratnos to say that...
Noone cares if like 40-80 ppl are put off by release timings
There is literally no reason to not have global release, other than to just be dickheads.
SE is in motherfucking Japan and they are able to release FF14 in all regions at the same time, when neither NA and EU timezones match well with JP.
My hot take, get rid of tier. I get that people like it but I think it creates more problems than it is worth. It sucks as a regular guild to be stressed about tier and have to go back to clearing normal and heroic or even LFR bosses to try to scrape tier. It makes your character feel like shit if you don't get help from the vault, it causes tension in lower guilds about who is getting the tier, it makes players who only want to play M+ giga fucked and (the least important but still relevant point) it makes the splits issue in RWF worse.
ehhh...maybe a bit too far? The catchup system has made it good for M+ generally now, but what about a system that takes the best of both?
Make it so you get a skeleton tier week 1, or even get it via some sort of enhancement, enchant set. Week 1 you can easily complete your gear set to get your tier bonus but its raid finder quality. As you collect higher ilvl pieces of the tier gear, and increased ilvl overall, it will increase the power of the benefit to scale. This way nobody gets shafted by RNG but also someone "Blessed" by RNG will only see an incremental improvement until later in the season when they can truly fill their set out.
Personally I love tier because I dont play as competitive anymore and because its historically been one of the best test beds for new mechanics and talents that we would see reappear fleshed out in future expansions. Blizzard has proven they need a live trial to get things right. The adaptations to gameplay style and ability to test new combinations is something I really love though, and has seeen numerous improvements in the game take form through this over the years.
No.