Relationships and the concept of the game: you can't not play
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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If a game is anything with rules and a goal, then relationships are a game. We know there is a goal, because we want things from other people. And we know there are rules, because we can't act however we want to get whatever we want. In this episode, I'll respond to the most common negative reaction to the conceptualization of relationships as a game: that "game playing" is "immature" and "manipulative." My rebuttal is that you can't not play, and that "maturity" and "honesty" are as much "game playing" strategies as their opposites.
Orion is a licensed psychologist in the state of California.
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#game #relationships #attraction
I have always viewed relationships as a game and something you have to be intentional about and strategise accordingly. The only thing I don't stand for is evil manipulation and blatant deception. In the game of love may the best man win !
Exactly! Being intentional and strategic doesn't necessarily mean that you're being manipulative and deceptive. Glad you understand that.
12 months ago, I wouldn't have understood. But after a year with a covert narcissist. I get it. I understand it.
Thank you. Such a brilliant upload ❤️
Game… ok, but Infinite or Finite? (See Simon Sinek). If it be Infinite, then there is no such thing as a winner.
@@mrsimo7144yes, only after experience you realize game must be played. I wish this weren’t true and that we could all be our true selves but it doesn’t work
Covert narcs are the absolute pits.
I’m autistic. I haven’t picked up on this concept until my thirties. I didn’t know that people had this ulterior thing going on and I was the idiot in the room. This is precisely why autism really is an disability and not a super power, despite what the woke people want us to believe …
Interesting
Oh poor little autistic victim
I’m not autistic (at least not that I know of) yet feel the same way..
I didn’t realize so many people are fake.
So what exactly did you think?
@@user-uc7qb1su4e We thought most people were like us - authentic. Turns out not only do a lot of people lie to others, but even worse, to themselves…
I think you can also add when the other person doesn't want to play,it's time to find a new playmate
😂 of course!
I agree. Like it or not as long as we're alive we're in the game so we might as well play it well. Binge watching your channel should be mandatory for all young people; so many mistakes might be avoided! Thanks for the great content.
I agree, Linda. If we have to play, we might as well learn the game.
The "default game of honesty" is probably a meta-game. I for example do consciously adhere to honesty as a general strategy for life - however it works in this or that game.
The related goal to relationships is to have a solid relationships even if it means passing on many opportunities that other strategies might at least short-term bring.
Women: I don' play games. Translation: I got hurt, because I was not enough and this time I want to be the only one to bend the rules
*In easy words*
Do things according to what you want.
Eg: if you don't want to get disrespected by partner stop them when they are disrespecting you.
The thing is stop expecting and start doing.
For an ex-actor (aka ex-artist), you have a remarkable sense for logic!
More like you need to try all strategies and find out which works out best. No hard feelings attached. Question: How then would you handle being defeated at your own game in which emotions are involved?
Thanks again Dr.
It might be helpful to reframe the experience. If you give something your all, and it still wasn't enough, you should be able to walk away without any attachments or regrets. Holding back is what binds us to the lost object.
Reminds me of a simple statement, that seemed to change me the moment I read it: "Perfect love askes nothing". I think that "games", in this context, means pointless, or dishonest tact's- hacks to human convention, from the beginning of time.
Perfect love does not exist because all love is conditional.
Actually, you are both right. "Perfect love asks nothing," so true. But the condition in a relationship context is that "perfect love needs reception. There is always conditions for relationships to exist. And perfect love cannot act alone.
@@obliteratebankai my condolences...
@@cruxx12Not so. God is love, He has no peer.
The only thing surprising here is the fact that your channel hasn’t taken off
Great perspective
Ultimate solution - no relationships. Done. Problem solved.
There are people who lie unconsciously . They say things that are fiction from their own minds. These falsehoods are often entertainment stories or lies to keep feelings from being hurt or angered.
I appreciate the frame you're attempting to create; however I can't help but disagree.
Fundamentally, a relationship is a collaborative agreement. There are usually two (or at times more) parties, that come together and agree to pursue a common goal. While there maybe some manipulative outliers that enter relationship to meet their own needs by deception; usually the goal of a relationship is common to all parties.
Therein, the rules of the agreement are reflective of the parties at play.
Given this, individuals choose to opt into relationships and choose the rules they agree too. When the agreement is broken, the relationship has run its course and people are free to choose what the next reiteration of this relationship (or lack there of) will look like.
To describe all relationships as a game is reductionist and arguably dismissive of complex nuances in the human experience.
I have watched alot of Orion. He would agree with you. You have an agreement with the gas station. I give you 4.39 a gallon and you give me the gallons. Relationship only happens by agreement always. Once a person violates their agreements enough the relationship ends. If the goal is to raise children.... then agreements must be negotiated constantly. If the goal is to be happy together it will be constant negotiation to agreement. I believe you are confusing the goal with agreement. Goal is the destination.... agreement is how are we going to get there. Just because a goal is agreed upon does NOT mean that the need for agreement goes away, to the contrary it escalates the need for continued agreement.
I’ve never met so many men that have no game as the past four months 😂 what’s happened? Do I really need to be the facilitator? What’s happened in the last thirteen years? Or do they just take thing’s super slow now? Which is fine I’m in no hurry just curious. For now I’m having a bit of fun watching them awkwardly try to figure it out, is that mean? 😊
Thanks
Interesting but don’t they say “all’s fair in love and war” meaning there aren’t really rules in love?
Nah... If she's not quiet and obedient, humble and noble, forget her.
OK it sounds a bit idiotic and out of place, after hearing the doctor s talk .... but what is the best pick up line to approach a woman on the street? Thanx
Game of please, no? About 3/4 . So what is the game where you treat people wow you want to be treated, and more than anything you want truth so you can understand what you're dealing with if only so you can officially narrow down who's not a peer, who's a predator, who's wearing the bodies of those you used to know, who's safe.. so you over explain what you're perceiving from every perspective you can see, because with ONLY misunderstandings there's got to be something obviously and fundamentally askew or completely over or under looked. To give up equivalent to absolute loss of faith in anything physical having integrity or anything but manipulative opportunistic parasitic underhanded tendencies, or maybe I'm locked somewhere like that,,. Is this the game called fuck around and find out? The game you don't know you're playing till you find out, and then I'm forced to flip tables? It's so overwhelming I couldn't play Tetris if I tried
So we're all game players then..that includes all family members ? .. so Life is just a game and we shouldn't take life too seriously then ?!.
People 's kindness n compassion is part of the strategy in the game too ?!. I thought kindness n compassion is part of feeling ?. Is that mean all emotions just part of the game ??
Anything with rules and goal is a game. So all relationships are a game, including familial relationships. And like with any game, it's good not to play _too_ seriously.
You can kinda think of emotions themselves as games too. This is because they need certain criteria to exist and their goal is to motivate action. Check out my episode "Emotions are living things."
Is raising up children is also a game.??
Yes you can apply different strategies to make your kids be the best instead of just letting them do what you like.
You are getting better and better at your RUclips game!
Haha thanks, Sisi :)
The goal is to get views while following youtube's rules to not get cancelled - if we see these videos still existing with increasing levels of views we know he is winning the game!
For me personally the strategy of being honest and forthright has nothing to do with trying to get something from the other person. They either will or will not be honest and forthright on their own volition. I find it intolerable to be otherwise and far more to the point I can't suffer others who are not this way. IE if the relationship isnt set up this way very early, ill just walk and find another.
So why do you get into relationships, if you don't want anything from the other person? Is it maybe societal expectations, and you don't actually want to be in relationships? I think that is true for a lot of people.
@@independentthought3390 Read carefully it’s not about being independent and moving away from relationships, it’s rather it being under a degree of circumstances. Of course under ideal conditions but they’re telling you that’s their tolerance level.
I have found if you are honest and forthright right from the beginning it makes life alot easier about ALL relationships, because those who hate you for it won't stick around, and then you are left with people who genuinely like you for who you are. Just be yourself. All the time wasters fall by the way side.
I am also honest and forthright, although I am not being so actively to gain something from another, I do belive that by treating other so will attract genuine interactions which is something I want from people around me.
A lot of the time the game is about power and if you win then they don't want to play but if you lose they get the power.
It's true: all relationships have a power dynamic. And (in many cases) there are ways to navigate that dynamic that leave both parties satisfied. This is because legitimate power is a tradeoff with responsibility. Many people would gladly forgo a greater share of the power, if it meant they would have fewer responsibilities in the relationship (and vice versa).
when people complain about games in relationships, they mean specific types of "games" - dishonesty and deception, where a person's actions are very inconsistent with their words. Yes, a strategy of honesty etc can be also called "a game strategy", but that's not what makes people unhappy and/or confused. This video focuses on terminology, rather than addressing problems people face on a regular basis.
In terms of "dishonest games", this is an easier thing to deal with, once you accept that not all people project their intentions in an honest way. Then becomes a matter of learning to filter out people who are dishonest - which actually may be a fairly difficult thing to learn. Most people can see that someone is dishonest after they've clearly acted dishonestly a few times, but we all would like to be able to filter out such a person as early as possible in the interaction, to preserve our time and energy for people and situations that are more deserving of our time and energy. There are probably very few people that are truly good at this (even psychologists! 😆) but each of us can improve.
I don’t think it’s right to equate the game playing of dysfunctional people with the “strategy” of being genuinely fair and sincere.
I score pretty high in dark triad traits, so am cold, narcissistic and manipulative in relationships. I engage in love bombing, devaluing, discarding, hoovering, gaslighting and all kinds of crazy-making behaviours with my colleagues, friends, relatives and lovers. It’s hard for anyone to be around me for any length of time, and the only person who loves me is my mother, more out of a sense of duty for having created me then through any real affection for the person I am.
My brother is reliable and honest in his dealings with people and is a better person than me. I’ve got no problem admitting this fact. Some strategies for life lead to win-win situations and increase the common good. Others lead to chaos and destruction. There is no moral equivalence.
Wow. What was I thinking? Being honest and direct is the last thing I should be doing. I need to listen instead of hear. Speak instead of talk. I dug my own grave every single time. I heard from someone else that not creating a fantasy or an illusion was lazy and meant you didn’t care. Now I see why. You either really are playing or being played. I’m an idiot for real and surrounded by people to dumb to explain anything to me. Thank you!
Yeah I learned pretty early on that “being honest and direct” really didn’t work well for me. And yes I learned that in order to do well in the dating/relationship arena - you must play the game to a certain extent. I really wish this weren’t true but it is
I remember a time when we simply said to one another,hey we love each other maybe we should give it a shot..you have to negotiate for a future tomorrow..if it doesn't work out you don't hate each other for that.
Agreed. There's an insidious belief in our culture that a relationship fails if it doesn't last forever. It's good to be more generous to our previous attempts, whenever appropriate.
@@psychacksAgreed..great channel btw
But what happens when you love more then one person why do people get Jealous we can literally all love each other another wrong with having 3 wifes that love you and they all love each other
I always felt the same way. It is ok to try it out. But I always remember the person who plays the game gets played as well. That is why when I know a girl is playing game, I bounce.
When the lady says she don't play games, it could mean be ready to pay full price for a 120,000 miles used car.
Most people don't know what they want...they are playing mindgames with themselves.
Everybody here is talking about the game. But what game is that, and how do you play? I am so bad at playing any type of games that I usually refuse to play them. I usually feel like I'm being scammed. Especially when it comes to relationships.
Doc you can just honestly summarize all your relationship/dating video in the modern world in a 5 sec video and say " you're fucked. "
“You’re fucked” is simplifying it but the doc is just calling out the difficulties of the modern dating arena. Pretty much all of my experience backs up what he is saying - it’s tough out there
Another great video!🔥
In a healthy, balanced relationship, the game and "transaction" occur almost imperceptibly...
This channel is a gold mine!
You are pure gold my friend.
It's probably easier to view it as "art" rather than a "game." Showing interest for another person through a creative expression of oneself.
One of the few videos where I disagree with you.
I’m way too open and honest with people. I just say what’s on my mind with no filter.
And throughout life it has done me little to no favors.
It has been far from “my best bet at getting what I want”, quite the opposite actually.
But I no longer care, I have long been done with acting fake.
My life experiences have reinforced the fact that lying and manipulating can get you way further. That can get you what you want - if done right.
But it’s way too much effort for me to keep up a facade, having a slightly different personality depending who you’re around (ie. alone vs with friends, family, partner, boss, etc).
I hated having slightly different versions of myself, and after having ‘ego-death’ on a shroom trip, I decided to just be my true self, regardless of whom I’m around.
I now am the true me to everyone, everyone gets to see the same me. It’s beyond easy for me to do, as no thought or effort is required.
I believe the kids term for this these days is “based”.
It still does me no favors, but I refuse to change. I’m an outcast because of it, after often harassed by others for speaking my opinion.
But I also have a rather unique upbringing, so I never really fit in with society.
So no, I disagree. I’m certainly not playing games as much as the dishonest. We are truly world apart..
Touchė
I do think it would be great to have a simple game in front of us with a clear set of rules and procedures but humans can complicate the simple with more variations than two people can imagine.
Do the players have the same definition of winning?
Do the players agree or disagree on the same rules?
Do the players both agree to follow the specified rules without cheating.?
Do the rules change under different circumstances?
Are the players, sometimes even looking at the same game board?
Are the players bored 😁 with the game?
These are excellent questions, Tammy! Let me go through them, one at a time:
1. No!
2. Usually not!
3. They'd have to, or they couldn't cheat!
4. Absolutely! Rules change all the time.
5. Haha nope!
6. Some of them are. But this is usually because they're either winning too much or losing too much.
Another brilliant video, but.... What's so uncomfortable about the game narrative is that someone has to lose. I think most of us are holding out the hope of a Win-Win scenario, symbiosis. Of course relationships will have a cost, wins come at a cost. I don't want to win, (get what I want if it means I have to defeat my partner.
Wonderful information. Thanks for having guidelines for this channel and making comments. If the majority of people did the same thing, civil discourse would happen everywhere.
Actually, in this instance...I do realize that I use honesty as a strategy sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Your last point is spot on. People who say they don’t play games too much most definitely do. That’s part of their game. 😉
I do at times & then I get tired of them & when I do, if I feel like the other person is still playing games, then I’m done. I can only do it for so long until I want honestly & transparency.
It's kinda like someone who keeps swearing they would never, ever, ever lie to you 🤔
I wholeheartedly disagree tbh…
I don’t play games. I could care less if you like me or not. Being myself has got me nowhere, and yet I continue to do so.
I literally can’t be bothered to be anything by my authentic self.
But go ahead, continue to assume we all play games.
I actually find it beyond ironic and funny that you admit you play games, until you don’t feel like it anymore, at which point you decide you’re better than the other person who was doing the same as you, and leave them.
Reminds me of the most toxic relationship I’ve been in, where me and this girl were both jobless for 1 year during Covid. That was absolutely no problem, until she got herself job. One week later she’s acting superior like she wasn’t just in the same position as me 😆🤦🏻♂️
Women..
This is what is wrong with relationships today. For 41 years we thought about eachbother's we each sacrificed for the other. It was about working together through thick and thin. There were years when everything was going well in my career but not in his and vice versa. We pulled together for our common goals.
Thats what makes marriages work.
you are one of the best men ive seen dude
OK it sounds a bit idiotic and out of place, after hearing the doctor s talk .... but what is the best pick up line to approach a woman on the street? Thanx
You create(d) a truly valuable channel and content!
Yes
Whats the game in arranged marriages?
No wonder there's not relationship education and the dating world is crazy. If being dishonest is just as good as being honest, then there are no laws to govern interactions and the negative consequences are just casualties rather than from a lack of common sense. There's no common sense in relationships, if all of this is true.
I can only apply game to worldly deeds - like going to work, making a living, acquiring assets or positions of power that help me survive well in a competitive world filled with predators and competitors.
Relationships and love are part of the spiritual realm of being human ---nothing game about them.
They are more about self discovery, sacrifice and moving past our shadow into the light.
I find it impossible to develop trust or any real depth of connection in an obvious give for gain situation unless the goal is to get satisfaction by selfless giving.
The noble game would be like donkey kong - run through life overcoming physical and emotional obstacles to reach a point of mental sanctuary with another... Game Over.
The spiritual game is the highest game of all! In the words of Alan Watts: "man suffers only because he takes seriously what the gods made for fun."
@@psychacks Game theory applied to intimate relations ... may be good for humorless men without souls ...but its probably better for mental/physical health if left to quantitative physicists.
People have their own definition of game. To many it is a dishonest ploy to gain something. It's acting with an ulterior unexpressed motive and not being authentic.
Bullshit. Relationships can be game free if people who want to play games are removed from the barrel before they cause the rest of the apples to rot. That may be 90% of men, which may also be why men don't police each other on their nonsense but most women adapt to game playing to keep themselves safe. It's not an innate thing.
Ironic
Eww it’s a silly thing to say that only the majority of one sec plays games. Women play games just as much as men . Like the doctor said, most adults “adapt” after numerous failed relationships and they learn to play the game to improve their results .. to think that it would even be possible to get rid of all “game players” is completely unrealistic .. utopia isn’t real
Its all fun and games until I get my hammer. The big fish shows up with extremely high charisma extroverted Sensing extroverted Feeling tracking your thought patterns and polarity bonus for being able to call out your emotions in real time as you feel them. INFJ-T
It's not that men don't like to play. The thing is men do have lack of resources to spend on on such pointless way. So women are, as you'v said, shoot in their own legs and in ours, by that behaver. So the investment to persuade desired woman that you are worth her attention is the criteria of her choice of men. That helps to cut off those weak ones. So if you haven't resources as a "bribe", that's your problem.
And often after several years, many of those overconfident women left alone with their kid/s, will become more open and active or proactive in establishing relationship. And that is the trap - why should you make effort to attract a woman who is so short-sighted and unrespectfull towards you by anticipating from you be doing double job for your part end for her part for only having some chance that in future that she will realise how smart you were and how she should be grateful for your incentives?
This is women's wrong investment strategy. And men are entrapped by women's misunderstanding of their own and their prospective relationship values and goals
This situation rises costs for man. Ok, then if you accept the rules of game, what is the most efficient approaches and tactics to find proper woman? And how afterwards should you negotiate the dividends?
Very interesting. I hadn't seen it that way. Very good, I am impressed.
Yes you can.
Like me (not through choice) you can never have a girlfriend.
Point taken, however if one refuses to be dis-honest or indirect out of principle in order to get what they want, what options (strategies) are left to play the "game"? Perhaps sincerity, and directness are not always preferred strategies, but are used out of necessity for lack of other options.
Like a simulation computer game , I agree sir
Thanks so much. I have the same question and you help me clarify it.
Well, what about the saying "in love and war, there are no rules"?
Wow 🤯🤯🤯
I think the fundamental points you are making are very valid, but I think a semantic point needs to be made.
I believe many people are referring to "seriousness" when they talk about "playing games." Oftentimes, when someone plays a video game, a board game, sports, etc, they take on the mindset that they are just there to have fun regardless of the outcome. Just imagine you and your buddies go to the park to play basketball. Some of you might be treating it super seriously to achieve the literal goal of scoring the most points. They are making their body language and verbal language super consistent with the original explicit goal of basketball: to have the most points when the clock runs out. However, some other friends might be there more with the mindset of "let's just have fun." Sure, they might be more or less playing basketball, but they also are telling jokes, maybe playing at 50 percent capacity, maybe even breaking rules on purpose just to get a laugh, etc. And they may be behaving this way without explicitly letting their friends know that they're not taking the game seriously. And even when playing a sport, I'm sure you have been through these kinds of arguments like "c'mon man, play for real, I'm trying to get a good workout in and prepare for the tournament next month." Vs "whatever bro, I'm just having fun with my friends... I'm not gonna die on the hill of basketball on a lazy Sunday."
Similarly, in the dating game, I believe people get tired of not taking dating seriously and either implicitly or explicitly breaking the rules, because "let's just see how things go", or "I need to feel things out", or more quite literally "how can I minimize my accountability in my mind so when I upset you I don't really have to feel guilty about it?" People lie about who they are, play head games, don't know what they want, are not self-aware, etc etc etc until they either score the relationship or get laid, and then when they stop having fun (the oftentimes unstated purpose) they just dip out. I think people are tired of the lies and manipulation during the playing of the game, not whether or not it's perfectly semantically correct to acknowledge dating is technically a game and that honesty is technically a strategy of the game.
People who just play relationships like a game think that's cool, - until "Karma" comes knocking at the door and they fall in love and get really hurt, then they can't hack the games anymore and get bitter and twisted. I've seen it happen to a few people I know who used to use people for fun, wasn't fun when it happened to them.
This is good
I don’t play games. I just take what I want.
ok psychopath...
Is Love a game too then ?.
Shouldn't Love be a genuine feeling ??
Relationships are a game. Love is an adverb (watch my episode).
@@psychacks which episode are you referring to.?.
Also,. Is marriage a game too.?
Friendships a game too.??
Is settling healthy boundaries also part of the game.?
@@lex28lush10 yes, yes, and yes.
I think part of the complexity in the idea of "game" when it comes to relationships, is the turn of phrase "having game".
I.e. knowing what to say and when to say it, knowing how to act to attract attention and generate interest.
All that is in my opinion a waste of time if it's not genuine. You should want to be your best self rather than putting on a facade that isn't really you.
Your example about car dealerships is a good one. Generally speaking, buying a new car from a dealership is bad business for most car buyers. Ironically, the reason new cars are bought is due to the social value and emotional takeaway one gets from buying a new car.
This is not a very intellectual video. One way has to be better than the other. There are different variables
Um,,, your definition of a game is different than chess r something…
He’s a brilliant therapist…and who tf are you again? Oh right…nobody
@@coimbralaw - Kinda being hateful there.. aren’t you?
🐰🎶🎵
Sad: you taking time out of your day, to insult random people on the internet. 🙄