Apologies for the audio being pretty bad in the first half of the video, my software had something go terribly wrong with the isolation and to fix it would have required me to re-record which was unfeasible at the time as I killed my voice again recording this the first time and needed another week to recover my voice back. Hopefully it doesn't affect the experience too much and I have learnt the issue going into the future.
hope you feel better. I have a friend who does voice acting and he's recommended me some voice exercises for when I run ttrpgs for a long time, they have helped. If you look into that maybe it can help next time
The "male-presenting" bit is also kinda shitty towards trans men, as if there's something wrong with being male presenting. It's always kinda icky for media to be like "men=dumb" but it's even more so when it's in an episode about trans topics, completely ignoring the existence of trans men and other trans masculine people.
It's a sad symptom of feminism - whether they're extremists or not - people thinking that to uplift women, they have to put down men. Why can't we uplift everyone?
@@christabelle__ TBF considering I don't see any putting down men in RTDs other works I don't think it was meant to be like that. Probably just a very awkwardly worded line that they didn't review before it was time to film.
I mean I was able to head cannon it as awkwardly worded/written thing saying the doctor can't let things go, he has lived for millions of years and still holds on to trauma when he was very young. Where as rose and donna are better able to manage emotional hardships.
as another trans masc person, I didnt like the bit either however i dont mind the men = dumb joke because when you look at any media ever, theres always jokes about women. Like especially in adult shows, there will always be a joke about how women are naggy or weak, or something like 'u cry like a girl' , there will always be a joke making fun of women. So its only fair that there are jokes making fun of men too
@@christabelle__ I would not confidently lay this at the feet of all feminists while explicitly stating this includes all non-extremists as well. While I understand the issue you're trying to highlight, that kind of absolutism is a well poisoned with dynamite if you take it too seriously.
Besides Donna not being a transphobe, it's also nice to know that the actors of the show are likely not transphobic either, which means a lot when British celebrities keep piling on
David Tennant has publicly worn a shirt which says 'Leave trans kids alone you absolute freaks'. One of his children is non-binary and he has supported LGBTQ people before too. The rest of the cast seems to be cool too.
@@Hamokk russel t davies also wrote in subtle references to trans characters in the 9th/10th doctors' series. For example the antagonist of the second episode of the 9th doctor was a woman but refers to her childhood as "when I was a boy"
@@UsenameTakenWasTaken Yes that was a bit dissapointing, I've also noticed that a lot of Russel's work likes to make jokes at the expense of fat people, I think in moderation that can be okay but when it's a recurring pattern it's a bit weird. Somewhat of a wider problem in British society though especially for people his age or older
Rose is right about the meep's pronouns thing, but I still don't like that line because it really sounded like "Did you just ASSUME his pronouns?!" I would have preferred Rose just saying "Wait. IS it he/him or do you go by something else?" without sounding like she was chiding the Doctor. Also, great point about the Meep not really being at fault, but it might be more like a Ood thing, where it gets brought back later and the Doctor fixes things then. We already have foreshadowing of something Meep-related being brought back with the Meep's threats.
Yeah that's a fair point. Thought tbh, I did love the Doctor's reaction to it. Like, I hope that the people who get confronted (or feel confronted) with assuming someone's pronouns, learn from his reaction - He wasn't upset or confused by her comment, he simply accepted it calmly, agreed that she was right and asked the Meep about pronouns directly. That's really all you gotta do in this situation irl, at least imo as a trans person. :)
I will die on the hill that they should've just had Rose ask beep's pronouns when she first meets them. It would've made way more sense for her character, been a good example of what ppl should do irl, and have avoided the extremely weird choice of making the doctor-the non-human, non-cis, genderfliud character, who's the only one in the room not raised with 21st century earth western cultural assumptions about gender-the one to assume pronouns.
Idk I thought that was a cute subversion of the typically lazy joke, actually taking it seriously like "hey sometimes we do assume pronouns and sometimes we're wrong!"
And not even that, like, the scene could have gone like Doctor: so, we have to make sure that... Im sorry, what are you? (Refering to the meep) Meep: meep, i am the meep Even as a non binary person, that scene was really cringey for me, is just UGHHH, i came for sci fi crazy adventures, no... Whatever that was
I basically loved everything about the episode except for one thing: I didn't like the "male-presenting timelord" bit. It honestly took a lot of the enjoyment out of the episode for me. It felt like such a slap in the face as a trans man. The combination of girlboss cis-centric feminism combined with transness being associated only with femininity, and the idea that masculinity can't be progressive, is just really bad. Because the framing of "only women understand/14 being a downgrade because he's a man now" is just so unnecessary, and contributes to every transphobic argument towards transmascs ever (that it's "unprogressive," or that trans men are brainwashed little girls trying to escape the patriarchy). I'm sure Davies didn't mean it that way, but the complete lack of thought for how that would look to trans people who weren't extremely feminine, is just a symptom of the erasure that transmasc people are subjected to :/
Agreed, it was such awkward and unnecessary wording. I would have preferred if maybe Donna said something like he wouldn't understand because of him regenerating into that specific previous Doctor, because he can be stubborn and miss simple solutions, since that was what I felt like they were trying to say - although maybe I'm being too generous to the script writers.
It is definitely meant to be a joke, but it's worded badly, and even if it was worded well... not really funny? I'd call it the low point among all four of the specials. Also keep talking loudly about your perspective! Trans-men are to often forgotten.
Agreed, they could have gone with being a Time Lord, and taken a jab at aristocratic arrogance. To fully explain Time Lords are the genetically engineered upper class of Galifrey.
I'm already tired of the terms "male presenting" and "female presenting" and I feel like they really Don't need to enter into the mainstream to have well-meaning but ill-informed cis people misuse them in an attempt at being progressive. Most of the times I see these terms they seem to be clumsily replacing agab or just a way of saying "I'm assuming your gender but in a way that sounds Politically Correct" (I know there's some specific contexts in which the terms have their utility- for example when trans people are describing experiences they had prior to coming out- but I don't think anyone needs to be assessing someone else's appearance to conclude what gender they are going for, instead of just asking them).
I feel like the writers wanted to say "as a man, you wouldn't get it" to solidify Rose's true femininity and bond with her mum - but realised that didn't make any sense with The Doctor's whole gender deal and they were trying to be more progressive with their language. So they went with "male-presenting" to be more accurate, but now it's like - what does gender presentation have to do with anything? They've essentially just implied that if you have male pronouns and wear a suit then you can't understand the concept of "letting things go", for... some reason? 😆 The thing is though that IMO it doesn't even really make sense if you change it to say "as a man, you would never understand". Like there isn't even a stereotype that men don't understand letting things go. Imagine if instead they'd said something like "it's something you obviously don't understand yet, since you're wearing that old face... letting go." It would have been more impactful and relevant and actually made sense, I think. Instead it came across as an awkward "girls get it done" moment and vaguely insulting to the doctor's gender identity.
To me it seemed like the implication was that a man wouldn't let go of power, bc that's kind of what the metacrisis was. Still sexist bullshit, obviously
As I understood it, it wasn't about letting things go. In general. It was about letting go of _power_ . I think at the end of the day the ultimate sentiment that RTD was trying to get across, although it was worded terribly, was that as a man he wouldn't understand being willing to simply give up and let go of so much _power_
Personally, I think the "letting go of the metacrisis" could have been handled much better by ignoring the gender aspect and focusing on how Donna has changed. The Donna Noble of Series 4 was, for all of her growth, still kind of insecure and struggling with feeling worthless, so of course she wouldn't be willing to give up on all the "specialness" that she perceived from the Doctor. Going from a regular human to having all the power and knowledge of a thousand-year-old supergenius, its understandable that going back to being "normal" wouldn't be something she would consider (especially having the 10th Doctor's vanity mixed in). By contrast, Donna Noble in the 60th Specials has lived another 15 years, reconciled with her mother, married a man who truly and unconditionally loves her for her and raised a daughter she's incredibly proud of. In other words, Donna has found something valuable and exclusive to the normal Donna Noble, which is worth more to her than any amount of power. Thus, Donna can now genuinely consider and accept the idea of just letting the Metacrisis go. If you wanted to, you could absolutely read this interpretation into the episode as is (or not if you don't want to), but I think this would've been a more satisfying way to explain it in the episode itself than "women are intrinsically different to men".
I thought that whole dig on masculine time lords weird and unnecessary, so this retelling has so much more meaning! I love that! I wish they explored that more.
another thing that can help that plot point. Season 4 Donna couldn't let all that metacrisis energy go, because that much energy leaving would also kill her. And since "some?" of the energy went into Rose they both could let it go safely without it damaging their bodies.
@@Marshmallow95506 It was a dig at men, not really Time Lords, the Time Lords are just mentioned because that is a title. The point they were trying to get over is: man bad, woman good, man power-hungry, woman wise, man moron, woman genius. Which is sexist in and of itself, but ends up being transphobic because 1, male-presenting includes trans men, and 2, the Doctor's ability to understand something so fundamental wouldn't have disappeared just because of regeneration and it would have existed before the 13th Doctor as other Doctors would also have understood the idea of letting something go. Even if they wouldn't think of it working on the metacrisis.
I think the simplest way to change this would be to play off Donna's knowledge of the 10th Doctor from her experience of travelling with him. And Rose should have been oblivious to the fact 10th wouldn't get it. What should have happened is: Rose: Actually, Doctor, there is a way to get rid of it. Donna: See, this is something you could never do. The Doctor: What? Do what? Rose: Simply choose to let it go. The Doctor: What? Donna: You could never let things go. That's why you got us, people to kick you when you need it. Sure, it would still be a bit clunky since it still means the metacrisis can be just... wished away... but it wouldn't be the stupidest plot twist in DW, let's be honest. And yes, the Doctor know how to let stuff go NOW, but 10th really had a problem with that, so Donna saying that to him specifically would make sense.
I'd like to reference the Curse of Peladon, a Doctor Who episode from 1972 where the Third Doctor corrects their companion, Jo Grant on preferred pronouns. As she accidentally misgenders Alpha Centauri.
There's also the fact that Centauri comes back in Monster of Peladon suddenly having inexplicably switched from using it/it's pronouns to he/him. A decision that can either be chalked up to lazy writing or suggesting that Centauri has transitioned off screen from genderless alien to some kind of transmasc thus becoming the shows first trans character. But you know more likely the former given it was the 70s.
@@nathanyou1899 But at least in Run (one of the new Nine audios) they correct back and use they/them! It's also a banger audio in general, I deffo recommend it (though most of the nine audios slap tbf)
And its not because of the pronoun error being offensive, it was just "the pronoun you are using is not correct" Besides, the scene with rose felt like she was a little agressive and accusative, whereas the scene with Jo nd the 3rd doctor felt like she was actually curious and the doctor gave her a straight answer
I’m glad that Yasmin expressed that she was okay with the dead naming bc it wasn’t excessive and gave as an insight into what her character’s life can be like. I’m just glad that this young trans performer was comfortable on set and her boundaries were respected.
One small note- Rose lives with her parents because she's meant to be 15! Technically Donna didn't even meet her husband Shaun until 2010 so she should be 13, but RTD admitted to stretching the timeline a bit for the sake of the story, and. 15 is about as young as they could believably make her
@@lynnhettrick7588 Pretty sure she's 16 in heartstopper, which is probably why they had her play about the same age here. She definitely doesn't look 15 but I mean hey, it's hardly the only case of adult actors playing high schoolers
yeah as much as i loved The Star Beast, the whole letting go of the metacrisis part didn't sit right with me either, like... why is that something a male-presenting time lord wouldn't understand? And just because the Doctor isn't a woman anymore that means he doesn't understand? Even though he rememebers being a woman? it doesn't really make sense. it's kind of like that shallow kind of feminism i see a lot in pop culture
It's also extremely funny to think about with reference to Thirteen specifically. Like, she was many things, but "emotionally intelligent" isn't a phrase I would use to describe her.
@@natsmith303 IKR? She was so much worse at "letting things go" than many other versions of the Doctor. Even 14 in this episode alone, was shown to be more open with his emotions than 13 ever was (being able to say he loves Donna and Wilf, and being like "Oh, is that who I am now?", cause even he himself was surprised, given how closed off and awkward 13 was with her emotions and around the topic of love lol).
i literaly thought like "wait,,, wasnt the doctor a woman like,, a week ago? why wouldnt he understand" its kind of a strange line,,, and like?? and her saying "male-presenting" just made me cringe, like,,, they tried to make it woke so bad but it just ended up sounding like the same gender essentialist bullshit anyways,, it was kinda dissapointing, since i though the "binary - non-binary" thing was fun and cute and then they went and ruined it by literaly making up a binary betweet "male presenting" and "female presenting" using that language to make it still seem progressive but its shallow imo
I think it made me even more :/ because as a trans man i often emotionaly identify more with women and female characters, whenever im told i cant understand something(even though i do) because its a "woman thing" it just makes me feel shitty and dysphoric, like i have to be emotionaly stunted to really count as a man or whatever lmao, like im very much "male-presenting" but that doesnt mean my identity is way more complex then that
That whole dig about the maleness of the Doctor also came across to me as 'male writer writing what he thinks feminist women want to see'. I know some girlboss types genuinely do think like that, but it seems to be especially popular among male writers who feel compelled to cack-handedly insert a Strong Female Character Moment. Donna and her daughter really didn't need that kind of moment. Supposed 'maleness' didn't have to be put down so they could be raised up! They were already up there! Besides, it could have been written as the Doctor not knowing what to do just because he's the Doctor, rather than because he's male-presenting (usually). It would still be a bit of a hand-wave, but instead Donna could have been like 'You know what your trouble is? You're too clever by half. And because you're always running around trying to be clever, you don't always consider the simple solution. Like this...' and then just casually gave the Timelord-glitter back. That would have got the job done without the iffiness. I also didn't really like the Doctor being the one to be called out for presuming the gender of The Meep. It would have made more sense to me if it was Donna or Sylvia that did, only to be corrected by both Rose and the Doctor. It's like the writers of this show sometimes forget that the Doctor isn't from our time or planet except when it's relevant to the plot. Surely he would already know not to assume an alien is male? It's not like he's new. My head canon is that Time Lords have a psychic sense of gender identity anyway. The Doctor has corrected people about genders a few times and it kind of makes sense, in a sci-fi babble sort of way, for a species like Time Lords to have adapted to not just relying on physical traits to identify people (especially since we already know they're a bit psychic). It can't be foolproof (especially if you get somebody like the Master who's good at hiding who they are) but it would help to avoid confusion among a species of face-changers to an extent.
I maintain that the way they should've handled the pronouns is just have rose ask the meep's pronouns when they first meet bc that makes way more sense than forgetting about it until someone (which deffo shouldn't have been the doctor) assumes them. Plus it would've been a good example of behavior to do irl. But yeah, if they were married to that scene specifically, it really shouldn't have been the doctor, since they're a non-human, non-cis, genderfluid character who wasn't raised with the 21st century earth cultural norms about gender, and english isn't even their native language. Extremely weird choice there. (I mean I know why they did it; it was so they could be putting the blame on the doctor as the show often loves to do even when it makes nonsense)
I’m growing increasingly convinced that Abagail Thorn is at least in consideration for 16. She’s clearly building her profile as a performer and I do think either 16 or 17 will be the first non cis or intersex person to take up the mantle.
My first thought when the male presenting line came up was "You're having a go at someone who had been dealing with the pain of losing one of his closest friends for hundreds of years. If there was a way to save Donna, the Doctor would have given up EVERYTHING to make it happen!" 9 took on the time vortex energy from Rose, 12 went through many years of hell to try and bring Clara back and 5 gave Peri the bat's Milk to save her life and give up his in the process to name a few examples. The Doctor is one of the most compassionate beings in the universe. Heck 14 was visibly torn at the thought Donna was going to die to save everyone. He cares so much. That is the kind of compassion that should never be overlooked.
Not only is the line "something a male presenting time lord" a bit cringe, it also is uncessary and I think undermines the previous point the show was trying to make about the Doctor. The Doctor was said to be "male, female, and both, and neither". So to then have the conclusion to the Metacrisis (as unforshadowed & ex machina "let it go" is), be something that a male presenting timelord can't understand--not only is it weirdly saying cis men and transmen (male presenting people) are too dumb, but also completley undermines the gender fluid nature of the Doctor--supose the Doctor isn't both male and female & neither if they're too male-presenting & dumb to possibly understand "letting it go" (& weirdly says gender fluid people are dumber when they're presenting male? Because Rose said male presentng, not merely cis male, so presumably if the Doctor decided to present female that'll change? nonsense) I also found the use of "non-binary" to be bizare as up to this point I presumed Rose was a transwomen, going by she/her pronouns. At worse it kind of treats "transness" as all one single thing rather than an enormous spectrum.
Is it the observation itself, or the fact that they said "male-presenting?" Would there be a problem if she just said "man"? Seems like if you have a problem with that point people aren't allowed to point out the differences between genders at all. Pretty sure genders are still different, that's why we like em so much.
I kinda agree about the non-binary part for Rose, though to be fair, it was never established that she identifies as a binary trans woman - Just that she was born male and chose to transition into presenting as female. She could still technically identify with the label of non-binary. That being said, I think it's fairly obvious that RTD simply wanted that callback connection to Donna's "binary. binary. binary" line from back in the day.. And honestly, as a fan, I'm cool with it. I didn't feel like it made Rose any less impactful as a character or harmed the quality of her representation overall, and it was a pretty cool connection that I didn't see coming. Now that male-presenting time lord line on the other hand... Totally unnecessary, and I agree with you that it undermines the previously made point about the Doctor's gender in a really harmful way.
I mean the non-binary part was fine since nonbinary people can be fem presenting doesn't really detract from the representation imo. But I agree I assume that It was just a bit of poor writing that never went through a review process. The doctor as a character at least previously really held on to a lot of trauma and baggage which considering they have lived for basically millions of years. The line totally works if instead of male presenting its the "doctor can't let go" which would also tie heavily into the arc of the rest of the specials in which the doctor sort of learns to slow down and work through that trauma.
I didn't like how the episode seemed to say that Rose being nonbinary is specifically because of the meta-crisis energy, and not just something the character decided for themselves. They made it so Rose was nonbinary BECAUSE of the Doctor Who element, and not just because it's a human thing that can happen.
Yeah, just to add weight to your "it's saying male presenting people are too dumb" point as well as the whole ex machina thing, I (as a cis guy who's just trying his best to understand trans and women's perspectives) didn't really get why they were able to just let go because I didn't think RTD would do such an ex machina thing. So I spent a good week or two worrying that maybe all my research into these topics hadn't paid off and I had proven RTD's point: I, as a male presenting person, didn't understand (I even spent a little while thinking he was trying to make some sort of menstruation metaphor, that's how desperate for understanding I was). Only to learn after all of that that it was a badly written line and a badly set-up and explained plot point.
As a trans woman who is also “male-presenting” that plot device feels icky and transmisogynist, in addition to being a slap in the face to transmasculine people.
I feel like they missed the better option of saying "with Rose not adhering to the binary, she has knowledge and experience I'll never have and since she grew up how she did, she has experiences youve never had and that's why she's able to figure out all the stuff we couldn't. Also, together as the binary and nonbinary meta crisis holders - we've figured out a way to release it so neither of us will be burdened with the threat of death." Make it some cute parent/child, new generations knowledge vs old, two halves of a whole doctor kinda thing. Not a weird man vs woman thing :/
Just an aside, Donna Noble is hands down my favorite companion. She and Gramps were always so heartwarmingly wholesome and compassionate when it came down to it. RIP Bernard Cribbins, you beautiful man.
absolutely agree, and ive watched all of doctor who (1969-present) aside from most of the chibnall era (i WANT to like the first female doctor. but. god. i cant stand chibnall's doctor who.)
@@monster3339 I haven’t gotten to the 13th Doctor quite yet but from what I’ve hear, Jodie makes a wonderful Doctor, but the bad writing completely undermines that.
@@whentherookbirdsings its really hard to say if shes a good doctor because of the bad writing, imo. she comes off as like... trying to be david tennant but instead being obnoxious 🙃 like yknow how 10 will get excitable and start talking a million miles a minute? imagine that but as one of her only modes, and when she does it shes just explaining what youre seeing in the most blatant example of "tell dont show" of all time. in what i saw too, it felt like she wasnt really allowed to be as morally ambiguous as past doctors either (my mom, who suffered through all of chibnall, agrees). like, you never get to see her be "Angry Doctor." the way the doctor gets when shes beside herself with anger/grief and is losing control. the doctor who makes everyone in her vicinity shit bricks. the doctor who proves why she needs a companion to stop her sometimes, because without them she risks becoming entirely unhinged. she's all manic, no darkness. in conclusion, to compare her to mary poppins wouldnt be a fair comparison, imo; marry poppins has more edge...
@@monster3339 ooh okay. I’ll wait to comment on her and form my own opinions because, like I said, I haven’t seen her yet (but I’m close, nearly done with 12). But it’s nice to get some more insight on her! It’s honestly a shame that she had a bad writer, though.
@@whentherookbirdsings 12, on the other hand, is my favorite doctor :) my mom and i have been rewatching all of modern doctor who (we're in early 11 rn), and im so excited to rewatch all of his episodes. "heaven sent" might be my favorite doctor who episode. i hope you can get some joy out of 13 regardless! everything ive said is just opinion, after all, so who knows, you might like her!
I got the impression from the Wroth Warriors story that the Meep race were changed on a base level, not just "being controlled by". The Meep didn't have the eye thing going on, called it "my psychedelic sun" and when the Wroth were explaining it they said "mutated by the sun" which to me implies like the race were irrevocably changed to be violent and destructive.
Yeah, I agree. I got the impression that the sun caused their species to turn ruthless over time. Plus, the Meep we meet in the episode is the last survivor of their species (and also their leader and apparently the worse of them all). Even if the Doctor wanted to go back in time and change it somehow, at this point with him already interacting with the Meep, it's too late. He can't change events he'd become part of, or it would create a paradox. So.. I'm pretty sure there's just nothing he can do about it tbh.
@@wendyheatherwoodthey do say that rather than negotiate or surrender they decided to go down fighting to the end, can't fix what refuses to be fixed, and the Meep needed to be tried for all the warcrimes
7:00 also peter capaldis doctor refers to having been a woman in the past. That i can remember and i could be misquoting there but it's as accurate as I can : taking about missy "she was a man back then and I was too ..i think" and once he talks about having been a vestal, female priestesses to Vesta.
It’s been a long time since I’ve watched Doctor Who but I vividly remember Missy mentioning knowing the Doctor ‘since he was a little girl’ and I stopped watching a while ago, just after Peter Capaldi became the Doctor.
@@greenginger6668 Yeah, she did say that, though she also said "one of those (the facts she was listing, this being one of them) was a lie" and we never get a clear answer to which one. It's eluded to later though, in Haven Sent, that the other two facts she lists (about stealing the moon and the president's wife) were sort-of true, so I feel like either the "little girl" part was a lie - OR, the lie was because the details were incorrect (i.e. it was actually the president's daughter). Anyway, regardless of theses throwaway lines, it has been established that in the version of events the Doctor can remember (meaning, putting aside the timeless child stuff for a moment), they were a boy, or at least male-presenting, while growing up on Gallifrey alongside the Master. I'm pretty sure the reason he says "I think" to Bill in that conversation, is mostly to further press his point about time lord perception of gender overall being different from humans.
There were definitely a few moments in this episode that made me cringe ("male-presenting time lord" I'm looking at you) but the scene between Donna and Sylvia in the kitchen makes up for all of it for me. My mom and I both love Doctor Who. She watched Tom Baker when she was a kid and we both loved to watch David Tennent together, so naturally we were both super excited for this episode. When we watched it together, my mom teared up during that scene because it was almost EXACTLY a conversation that she had with my grandmother many times. My grandmother is extremely supportive, but she had a lot of trouble adjusting to referring to me differently. She was constantly worried about using the wrong words to refer to me and would apologize profusely when she messed up my pronouns. I told her that the fact that she was worried about it means that her heart is in the right place, that she doesn't need to worry so much about messing up, because I know she's trying and that's what matters. It was really beautiful to see that sentiment on screen, especially in a TV show that my mom and I both have so much nostalgia for.
Another technically trans character is Lee McAvroy! He is Donna's husband in Forrest of the Dead, aka the second part of River Songs first episode. He was originally intended to be trans! the intention was that he would be trans and able to transition within the simulation, however this got cut for time unfortunately. it does make sense that it was cut, it was already a jam packed episode, but it's also sad
As a nonbinary trans person whose favorite doctor companion duo was Donna and 10: i could not stop crying this whole episode. Bone-rattling, hacking sobs. My family is very transphobic, I can't risk coming out, and this episode meant the *universe* to me. It's silly, but knowing these characters i love would radically love and accept me hit in a way i can't describe.
The depiction of transphobia in the Star Beast was uncomfortably accurate to the point where I felt physically sick. So they at least got that right even with all the missteps.
I actually met Catherine Tate at MegaCon London last Sunday. At her panel she invited people on stage to ask questions, which hadn't been planned by the organisers but she decided to do it, and I was one of the people who got to meet her on stage. She was absolutely lovely.
I love that you mentioned the trans character in Church on Ruby Road, personally I loved that little inclusion of a trans character much more, and I wish we got more of Trudy played by Mary Malone! I've rewatched her scenes so many times, because seeing her just be one of the girls is what I've always wanted! Rose Noble was fine but I don't like how they implied her transness was "caused" by the metacrisis, and the fact that it also implies she is also nonbinary despite nothing else in the episode implying she is anything other than a binary trans woman, is just way to confusing and unnecessarily complicated!
@@mayotango1317 I think you're a bit confused. One of Ruby's friends at the start of The Church on Ruby Road was a trans woman. This comment is praising that.
In the original comics stories that introduced the Meep, the black sun radiation had permanently mutated the species into evil monsters. One novel, set really really far in the future, presented the idea that a colony of unaffected offworld Meeps had survived and ended up repopulating the species after its extermination by the Wrarth; they were somewhat ruthless and still used their cuteness to their advantage - implying those are non-mutated Meep traits - but weren't murderously evil like the black sun Meeps.
Fun fact: Rose is 15 that's why she still lives with her parents (something I find funny is Yasmin Finney is playing a 15 year old while being a year older than the current companion/actor Ruby Sunday/Millie Gibson who is 19)
I keep seeing this and it's just so odd? Yasmin Finney was 18 years old at the time of filming not at her current age of 20 as of 2024. The specials was not filmed now obviously but back in early 2022. I also honestly think it's the makeup they chose for her. Yasmin looks way younger in Heartstopper and that was filmed only a few months earlier than the doctor who specials.
@@josefinariviait was actually filmed back when she was 17. which is WILD to think about like, Corinna and Sebastian (Tara and Ben respectively) were the only adult cast members there everyone else was a fuckin baby that's mind-blowing to me. it makes the thirst traps weirder though bc like. that's a 17 year old playing a 15 year old
This video is exactly like having an autistic friend that infodumps on you, and I love it so much. The perfect thing to have on while doing a project, just someone who really loves Dr. Who having fun nerd moments, and telling you about how the scenes and the comedy work, explaining the lore. Its amazing, and I would love to see more just like this!!
@@EmpireAnts42Omg, love the 9th Doctor love. I really love CE. & I agree, I think it’s rude to say that there’s a “right” favorite to have. My favorite is 5.
If you want to cover some lesser-known trans Doctor Who content, I'd love to see a video on the Big Finish 8th Doctor storyline "Stranded"! One of the major characters in the storyline is a trans woman named Tania Bell, portrayed by Rebecca Root, who gets a cute crush on 8th Doctor companion Liv Chenka and gets to interact with a bunch of different incarnations of the Doctor. We love to see it! I will note that 8 is very surly in this storyline due to the extreme circumstances he's in, but normally he's one of the more Fun and Human Doctors. He and Tania have some lovely conversations and it's sweet.
Also: I've really developed a soft spot for Mariam Margoyles after watching her show where she journeys across Australia to meet and learn about its people. (And, incidentally, there is an episode where she interviews some trans people!) I didn't recognize her as the Meep until the climax.
I personally think that if they'd just said "Something a timelord like you would never understand" then I think it would have been slightly better. Like, as you say, even 13 wouldn't have considered letting go to be a viable option for Donna to do. Ethier that, or a line like "It's been 15 years mate. Time changes a person" because I think it would have stated yeah, Donna has changed in 15 years, she's grown maybe she can find a solution in time that would be better and maybe just keep the idea that having a kid would help too.
the visual gag for your change in recording setup made me laugh out loud. Also thank you so much for the video! I had left the special feeling a little weird about it's portrayal, but this does certainly clear things up a bit as far as rose goes!
Pumped for this because I'm a trans doctor who fan the same age as RTD said Rose is. Although the representation wasn't perfect in my opinion, I really connected with a lot of it. The scene where Rose gets shouted at by the people who know her was uncannily similar to something that happened to me, and I'm really glad I've got to watch that on national television; it wasn't nice to be reminded but it's a step towards people empathizing with us and our experiences. Also really appreciated Donna being a great ally as someone with an unsupportive/in denial mum. Thanks for the vid :)
loved hearing your take on the new era of who!! i hadn't thought that the "male presenting" line was all that bad at first, even being nonbinary myself, but I definitely understand the problems with it now curious what your thoughts on bethany black's character in the moffat-era episode "sleep no more" are; you did say you'd devote separate videos to the moffat and chibnall eras so im hoping this was a deliberate omission and not a total oversight 😂
As a cisgender dude... This was valuable. This was a perspective I really wanted to hear and not everything was as I'd expected. Thanks for making these.
Gasped out loud when I saw this video was up, I was super excited to see you were doing a Doctor Who video about the 60th. I appreciate that you addressed the "Meeps were driven mad by the psychadelic sun" thing that the Doctor doesn't try to investigate or help with. Great video!
I highly recommend verilybitchie’s video on doctor who, which goes into the differences between RTD’s writing with women and queer characters vs. Moffat’s and Chibnall’s. I was a huge doctor who fan as a teen but fell off sometime around 2016, and actually recently talked with my friends about how the tenth doctor was kind of my baby butch awakening lol. I plan on catching up with the series eventually and this video has definitely motivated me to do so!!
My favorite Doctor was Christopher Eccleston, the 9th Doctor, I started with re-runs of that series, he was fantastic, and then I learned later that the actor himself is strongly anti-nobility and my opinion of him went through the roof.
Donna has been my favorite companion almost since she was introduced. I've only watched the new series, but Donna was the only person up to that point who A) didn't fall in love with the doctor and B) consistantly stood up for what she believed to be right, even if that meant opposing her friend and his centuries of wisdom. Donna has her own quirks, but she was the moral compass and fresh perspective the doctor needed.
So it turns out I never left a comment here when I watched this video earlier so I'm coming back to rewatch it and add this comment to boost engagement and make the algorithm happy. This video is good, and you should feel good for making it.
Uhh duhh it’s the womanly power to zap alien energy out of your body. You know, that thing all women do when they eject their alien energy. The letting go thing
I think it's about letting go of power in general. That a masc person is less likely to let go of a lot of power even if it would destroy them... Idk how I feel about the message in general but I think that was the idea (ps. I didn't watch the entire video op might say this) I'm a trans man if that's a helpful view point 😅 I'm not a woman so take this with a grain of salt
Loved the video. The doctor has always been a very gender-fluid character to me, and it’s really cool & reassuring to hear your take on that ❤ thanks as always, Lily!
Beep the Meep was apparently adapted from some doctor who comic in the 80s. Probably a good retcon for the “but the Meep race is insane and thus not in control of their actions” would be to have the beep of all the Meeps be like, “You see, I used the psychedelic sun to make the rest of the Meeps as EVIL as me!” or something. Also, yeah, I guess the “male presenting timelord” section is not the best. I think the best way to read it as more on the “timelord” part and not the “male presenting” part because it was already established that the meta-crisis being part human/timelord is more mentally flexible/creative because of the mix. Also, I am personally going to pretend the Cassandra backstory book is non-canon as beyond the weird transphobic conditions, it also kind of feels like a character assassination as the ending of New Earth at least implies that she used to be a good person, so just being like “Oh she married and murdered all of her husbands and stuff” is kind of a character assassination in my mind. I mean, yeah, she’s a terrible person by the time the series starts, but the ending of New Earth is kind of lesser, in my opinion, if it's like, “OH, she was EVIL the entire time, MUHAHAHAHA!” -Also, I don’t know the book, so maybe Russell had no involvement in that, like the Star Wars EU- never mind, it appears that Russell T Davies wrote the book. (Though it came out before New Earth, so because of that, I am going just to assume it is non-canon for the above reasons. Just personally going to assume that Russell has changed since that book or something, as that seems to be the case.)
Oh I was waiting for that male presenting Time Lord rant. It really felt like that old gender essentialist trope of "Women be more caring and emotionally intelligent because reasons" and RTD just did the bare minimum to try to line it up with a more neuanced view on gender. It buged my GF and I so much in an otherwise wonderful episode. I feel like it could have been better handled if they went "With it split between the two of us, we can see a very human solution to the problem. This time lord essense isn’t a part of us like it is part of you. We can just let it go."
The only thing I don't like about her in Heartstopper is that there's not enough of her. The male characters in Heartstopper take the front seat, and I get a little bored in the scenes where there are no girls.
Dr Who was really the first place I felt seen in a way I couldn't articulate, and it wasn't until years of learning about LGBT+ that I figured out I'm nonbinary and it helped me make sense of that initial connection. Appreciate the episode!
I thought of the "male-presenting Time Lord" thing as a more metaphorical callout, hear me out here I think it was trying to say not that a man wouldn't have thought of that, but that the Doctor themselves would have thought of that if they were still 13, as in the sense that since regenerating into 14, their mind was too clouded to think of it. So it wasn't that 14 couldn't do it because he was a man, but because the events that turned him INTO 14 made him too confused and stressed, and he was no longer 13, which does play into the therapy themes they seemed to want to be shown.
Prefaced as always with the fact that I am not trans, but I was not a fan of the first scene where Rose was dead-named. I understand why the scene was there, but the dead-naming felt like it might be potentially, for want of a better word, triggering for people. I've seen an interview with RTD where he mentioned that Rose's dead name means 'doctor' and was another example of Donna subconsciously referring to her forgotten past, and that he felt it was a 'nice' detail to include. I humbly feel it wasn't worth it. The scene between Donna and her Mum where Sylvia worries about getting it wrong though? GOLD. No notes. I really liked that scene.
I do gotta say though, it was delightful how much Missy enjoyed being a woman, and I did cry and was hella moved how Heather felt all the tears Bill has cried since their parting. And Bill becoming immortal and a transcendental goddess traveling everywhere with her college crush is just the kind of shiny Who departure I lose it for
Thank you for making these videos, I have been enjoying them and this one in particular. I am honestly hoping that Ruby’s bandmates become recurring characters like Micky did in the first couple seasons of nu-Who. Do we start calling this new era neo-Who?
I’m glad to see that I wasn’t alone in thinking the binarybinarybinary/nonbinary/trans/DoctorDonna tangle during the episode wasn’t just confusing for me, nor that the “male presenting timelord” thing wasn’t a touch overboard in the cringe direction just for me. Like you’re spending the whole episode talking about how The Doctor’s gender is a sort of fluid and relative thing, and how Rose is “more” than the sum of her gender, but because Fourteen presents as male he stupid now ha ha ha girl power!!!!!!! The story of the specials is that Fourteen needs to let go and chill, something that Jodie’s doctor also very much needed to learn. She’s the most constipated emotionally of a lot of them (partially due to terrible writing making her have to say she’s socially awkward, kill me) for christ sakes! Why couldn’t you just have Donna be like “I always thought this about you and I’d hoped you had learned your lesson in the past 15 years, but you need to learn what we already know- sometimes you have to let go” and then it plays SO NICELY into the rest of the specials!
Like everyone else said, the "male-presenting timelord" line was suuuuper heavy-handed and vaguely shitty to queer men, and it was especially frustrating because 10th specifically having a bit of a god complex if left unchecked was explored briliantly in the special episodes before his regen. So they could have made a callback to that, and to his personality, instead of this clunky line. But then again, that's the one gripe I have with the episode, so I'd say it's not a bad score overall x) And between that and our new very queer 15th doctor, I'm looking forward to more queerness in episodes to come !
Another super interesting analysis! I'm pretty sure I followed what you were trying to say in the chapter about the Doctor's gender, but it might just be due to me being a fellow trans, autistic Whovian lol. I mean, I read (and write) quite a bit of DW fan fiction, often specifically ones that revolve around or include discussions of gender - So I've definitely given the topic a lot of thought before. But I feel like your general point would be clear even if I hadn't. Just to make sure I got it right, but please correct me if I'm wrong - You were saying that canonically, the Doctor is an alien, hailing from a society with a totally different understanding of gender, therefore they don't necessarily fall under any specific human labels (including trans ones). That means that by definition they technically aren't trans, however, it also means that they aren't binary either, because again, they don't fall under any labels, including cis-man or cis-woman. Beyond that though, people can choose to view the Doctor's gender however they like. If that is what you were trying to say, then I totally agree of course (: I personally tend to read/write the Doctor as genderfluid, though I often include the idea that they don't really use or identify with human labels. When they choose to do so in one of my stories (aka in my head cannon), it's always when speaking with their human friends/companions, and stems from trying to make it easier for them to understand. It's kinda what the Doctor does anyway, whenever there's say, a technical of scientific subject which "goes above their head" as 21st century humans, the Doctor will often simplify it, or try to put it in terms which the humans could grasp (with varying levels of success, of course lol). So, it only stands to reason imo, that they would do the same thing in a conversation about their gender/time lords' perception of gender. I won't go too deep into what I thought about Rose, or other RTD characters in terms of trans representation, cause otherwise this comment will be as long as your video haha.. But I will say that I agree with pretty much everything you've said! I think almost everyone in the fandom agrees that the whole "solution" to the meta-crisis and the cringy "male-presenting time lord" line, were pretty disappointing and clearly not very well thought out. But, I'm glad that like myself, you didn't allow it to fully distract you from all the wonderful aspects that make Rose great representation anyway! Because yes, she has several qualities and struggles, both released to her being trans and not, and she plays an active, positive and important part in the story; plus her being trans isn't used for laughs or anything of the sorts, it's just a part of who she is. I think that us trans fans know how rare that is to see, especially on a high-profile, family-friendly show, and I for one am very grateful for it. Would I have liked Rose to get some more screen-time, especially around act 2 (e.g. when the Meep gets revealed as evil and Rose has literally no reaction etc); where she seems to get a bit lost in the hubbub of everything else that's going on? Yeah, def. But lets be real, this was not only technically a Doctor's first/post-regen story and an adaptation of a classic comics story - But it was also the 60th anniversary, RTD's first episode back as showrunner, and the highly anticipated return/reunion of Tennant and Tate. The episode had SO much going on, that really, Rose got a lot more time and focus than I was originally expecting. And as you've said, we will get to see her again! I don't know if you've watched the S14 (or S1, I guess lol) trailer, but Rose is seen in one of the shots, hugging 15 in the UNIT offices. So we do know she'll be back sooner rather than later, and I for one am super excited. I hope she gets more time to shine in a story that doesn't have so much else going on, and who knows, maybe she'll even become a reoccurring pseudo-companion, or even full-time companion in the future. Anyway, I got sidetracked and ramble-y again, but you keep talking about my favorite aspects of my favorite show, so it's hard not to! lol (Please never stop tho
you had to ruin by makeup by playing the clip of donna telling rose she'd burn the world... welp there goes my day. thanks i loved this!!!! (and your voice)
I was gonna comment this on your mlp video but it got taken down - you should take a look at the kid's cartoon "shezow", it's like if a genderswap episode was the whole show
I'm glad we share the same favourite Doctor and it seems for similar reason. Twelve could just hold an entire room with his speeches and an entire episode by himself in Heaven Sent, which is my favourite Doctor Who episode. Peter Capaldi was so good at filling the shoes of The Doctor. I've just started getting into the classic Who series while I wait for May.
So happy to see some love for Capaldi. I know it might be more neatly read as an allegory for aging, but I really resonated with his conflict with Clara as she struggled to see him as the same person she cared about before 11 regenerated.
I’m happy seeing you having the same issues I saw with the meep being insane and how Donna and Rose said the Dr couldn’t understand the fix to the meta crisis thing.
This was a fun episode To your point about why the doctor doesn't go and try to cure the solar psychodelia this episode was a faithful recreation of an OG doctor who comic and so I'm not surprised RTD wouldn't want to change a core aspect of the story he was writing with the original writers just because it was more in line with the doctors characterisation
I didn't see this episode but it's nice to see that Donna is still Donna and is absolutely not against conflict. I mean it's Donna Noble after all, conflict is her middle name... and her prefix...and her suffix. Conflict Donna Conflict Noble Conflict.
Ok, first time here, your thumbnail made it look like it was gonna be something I would NOT like, I thought it was gonna be a phobist thing so I could block another user from my suggestions, but THANK YOU for being awesome! Subbed!! Notes: I had to Google the Ace Ventura thing, that is a very old callback to something I watched once decades ago, and yeah, not great, or even good, at all. Having lived through the early 90s as my college years I can say with some authority vested in me by myself, that society really could have used some more "wokeness" back then. And by woke I mean a tendency toward decency and inclusion and not being a tool. To what you said about Time Lords choosing to regenerate instead of Dying to, this is covered a bit in the 8th Doctor audio Deeptime Frontier when Rasmus, a TL friend of the Doctor, explains to companion Liv that most TL regeneration happens w/out much spectacle or trauma, that The Doctor never quite got the hang of it because it was almost always due to mortal injury.
48:23 Thank you!!! I hated that they presented it as the first time the Doctor had ever had a family! Rory and Amy are my favorite companions by far, and it really felt like the show was ignoring all the time he spent with them. They were his friends, his FAMILY!
Yaaassss!!! OMGGG!!! I've been waiting for you to cover this episode as soon as I saw it!!!! It was soooo fun to watchh, and so nice to see more trans representation in such a long-standing and popular franchise!!!! (Unfortunately my sister was a little transphobic when I watched the first episode, so I had to watch the rest of the mini-series myselfff).
I love Rose, and Yasmin Finney, but I am absolutely flabbergasted that they tried to pass a beautiful 19 year woman with fantastic voice training off as 14-16 year old. The dissonance kinda took me out of it. Either Rose should be canonically older, or they should have cast a younger, (less passing (please please please)) trans girl
@@olcay8233 I think it's about wanting representation to show that it's okay to be non-passing. A lot of trans women media portrayals are either man-in-dress or very passing, without a lot in between
I really loved this video, and the fact that it hardly has half the views really bumms me, I really hope it gets boosted more because I love doctor who and love it when you make content you are interested about.
I never got the impression that the psychedelic sun was the actual cause of the meeps madness, but was part of the meeps "tall tale". but I need to watch this one again
In the comics that the story was based on, Meeps were naturally ruthless and took advantage of their appearance; the altered sun made them evil on an almost genetic level, since we also saw a colony of Meeps that weren't affected as a contrast.
1:12:00 Unironically the entire description of how Timelords treat gender, gender roles and gender presentation in this section is so close to how I view the relationship I'd like to have with those things as well. Personally I ID as Agender as I've never been attached to any specific concept of gender (binary or otherwise), so the thought of switching up perceived gender markers like that makes a whole lot of sense to me and is something I'd love to be able to do in the future. Though not to the same extent obviously, I'd definitely love to be able to shapeshift but I have to be at least a little bit realistic. So yeah, Timelords can absolutely be viewed as trans allegory and be relatable to a trans person's experience.
Holy fk it was nice to see I wasn't overreacting to the awkwardness around the Rose situation. Definitely agrees on a lot of the bits. And if you wanna so commander mine is Oroloth Blue White Black. It's just collecting dust.
im not embarrassed to say when i saw that lily posted a video on my an episode of my years long hyperfixation, i audibly went “EEEKKKK!!” and clicked and hopped on my bed like giddy child
Apologies for the audio being pretty bad in the first half of the video, my software had something go terribly wrong with the isolation and to fix it would have required me to re-record which was unfeasible at the time as I killed my voice again recording this the first time and needed another week to recover my voice back. Hopefully it doesn't affect the experience too much and I have learnt the issue going into the future.
I didn't even notice, honestly. Was too engrossed in the content
Is it possible to get non-auto captions on this video?
A fine attempt at deception. We know you accidentally picked up some sports socks instead of your microphone.
Audio gets good from the cassandra chapter onwards, 53:22
hope you feel better. I have a friend who does voice acting and he's recommended me some voice exercises for when I run ttrpgs for a long time, they have helped. If you look into that maybe it can help next time
The "male-presenting" bit is also kinda shitty towards trans men, as if there's something wrong with being male presenting. It's always kinda icky for media to be like "men=dumb" but it's even more so when it's in an episode about trans topics, completely ignoring the existence of trans men and other trans masculine people.
It's a sad symptom of feminism - whether they're extremists or not - people thinking that to uplift women, they have to put down men. Why can't we uplift everyone?
@@christabelle__ TBF considering I don't see any putting down men in RTDs other works I don't think it was meant to be like that. Probably just a very awkwardly worded line that they didn't review before it was time to film.
I mean I was able to head cannon it as awkwardly worded/written thing saying the doctor can't let things go, he has lived for millions of years and still holds on to trauma when he was very young. Where as rose and donna are better able to manage emotional hardships.
as another trans masc person, I didnt like the bit either however i dont mind the men = dumb joke because when you look at any media ever, theres always jokes about women. Like especially in adult shows, there will always be a joke about how women are naggy or weak, or something like 'u cry like a girl' , there will always be a joke making fun of women. So its only fair that there are jokes making fun of men too
@@christabelle__
I would not confidently lay this at the feet of all feminists while explicitly stating this includes all non-extremists as well.
While I understand the issue you're trying to highlight, that kind of absolutism is a well poisoned with dynamite if you take it too seriously.
Besides Donna not being a transphobe, it's also nice to know that the actors of the show are likely not transphobic either, which means a lot when British celebrities keep piling on
David Tennant has publicly worn a shirt which says 'Leave trans kids alone you absolute freaks'. One of his children is non-binary and he has supported LGBTQ people before too.
The rest of the cast seems to be cool too.
@@Hamokk russel t davies also wrote in subtle references to trans characters in the 9th/10th doctors' series. For example the antagonist of the second episode of the 9th doctor was a woman but refers to her childhood as "when I was a boy"
@@morisan42
The skin stretched out over a wrack to mock surgery addicts wasn't exactly supportive rep, though.
@@UsenameTakenWasTaken Yes that was a bit dissapointing, I've also noticed that a lot of Russel's work likes to make jokes at the expense of fat people, I think in moderation that can be okay but when it's a recurring pattern it's a bit weird. Somewhat of a wider problem in British society though especially for people his age or older
@@UsenameTakenWasTakenit wasn't ideal but you can't deny she was serving
Rose is right about the meep's pronouns thing, but I still don't like that line because it really sounded like "Did you just ASSUME his pronouns?!" I would have preferred Rose just saying "Wait. IS it he/him or do you go by something else?" without sounding like she was chiding the Doctor.
Also, great point about the Meep not really being at fault, but it might be more like a Ood thing, where it gets brought back later and the Doctor fixes things then. We already have foreshadowing of something Meep-related being brought back with the Meep's threats.
Yeah that's a fair point. Thought tbh, I did love the Doctor's reaction to it. Like, I hope that the people who get confronted (or feel confronted) with assuming someone's pronouns, learn from his reaction - He wasn't upset or confused by her comment, he simply accepted it calmly, agreed that she was right and asked the Meep about pronouns directly. That's really all you gotta do in this situation irl, at least imo as a trans person. :)
I will die on the hill that they should've just had Rose ask beep's pronouns when she first meets them. It would've made way more sense for her character, been a good example of what ppl should do irl, and have avoided the extremely weird choice of making the doctor-the non-human, non-cis, genderfliud character, who's the only one in the room not raised with 21st century earth western cultural assumptions about gender-the one to assume pronouns.
Idk I thought that was a cute subversion of the typically lazy joke, actually taking it seriously like "hey sometimes we do assume pronouns and sometimes we're wrong!"
And not even that, like, the scene could have gone like
Doctor: so, we have to make sure that... Im sorry, what are you? (Refering to the meep)
Meep: meep, i am the meep
Even as a non binary person, that scene was really cringey for me, is just UGHHH, i came for sci fi crazy adventures, no... Whatever that was
@@akodaah13-e32 I wish Meep said that instead what they did in the show. It was just cringe...
I basically loved everything about the episode except for one thing: I didn't like the "male-presenting timelord" bit. It honestly took a lot of the enjoyment out of the episode for me. It felt like such a slap in the face as a trans man. The combination of girlboss cis-centric feminism combined with transness being associated only with femininity, and the idea that masculinity can't be progressive, is just really bad. Because the framing of "only women understand/14 being a downgrade because he's a man now" is just so unnecessary, and contributes to every transphobic argument towards transmascs ever (that it's "unprogressive," or that trans men are brainwashed little girls trying to escape the patriarchy). I'm sure Davies didn't mean it that way, but the complete lack of thought for how that would look to trans people who weren't extremely feminine, is just a symptom of the erasure that transmasc people are subjected to :/
Agreed, it was such awkward and unnecessary wording. I would have preferred if maybe Donna said something like he wouldn't understand because of him regenerating into that specific previous Doctor, because he can be stubborn and miss simple solutions, since that was what I felt like they were trying to say - although maybe I'm being too generous to the script writers.
It is definitely meant to be a joke, but it's worded badly, and even if it was worded well... not really funny? I'd call it the low point among all four of the specials. Also keep talking loudly about your perspective! Trans-men are to often forgotten.
The whole scene felt very Avengers Endgame all the female heroes fight together to me tbh. Pandering and completely missing the mark.
Agreed, they could have gone with being a Time Lord, and taken a jab at aristocratic arrogance. To fully explain Time Lords are the genetically engineered upper class of Galifrey.
I'm already tired of the terms "male presenting" and "female presenting" and I feel like they really Don't need to enter into the mainstream to have well-meaning but ill-informed cis people misuse them in an attempt at being progressive. Most of the times I see these terms they seem to be clumsily replacing agab or just a way of saying "I'm assuming your gender but in a way that sounds Politically Correct" (I know there's some specific contexts in which the terms have their utility- for example when trans people are describing experiences they had prior to coming out- but I don't think anyone needs to be assessing someone else's appearance to conclude what gender they are going for, instead of just asking them).
I feel like the writers wanted to say "as a man, you wouldn't get it" to solidify Rose's true femininity and bond with her mum - but realised that didn't make any sense with The Doctor's whole gender deal and they were trying to be more progressive with their language. So they went with "male-presenting" to be more accurate, but now it's like - what does gender presentation have to do with anything? They've essentially just implied that if you have male pronouns and wear a suit then you can't understand the concept of "letting things go", for... some reason? 😆
The thing is though that IMO it doesn't even really make sense if you change it to say "as a man, you would never understand". Like there isn't even a stereotype that men don't understand letting things go. Imagine if instead they'd said something like "it's something you obviously don't understand yet, since you're wearing that old face... letting go." It would have been more impactful and relevant and actually made sense, I think. Instead it came across as an awkward "girls get it done" moment and vaguely insulting to the doctor's gender identity.
To me it seemed like the implication was that a man wouldn't let go of power, bc that's kind of what the metacrisis was. Still sexist bullshit, obviously
As I understood it, it wasn't about letting things go. In general. It was about letting go of _power_ . I think at the end of the day the ultimate sentiment that RTD was trying to get across, although it was worded terribly, was that as a man he wouldn't understand being willing to simply give up and let go of so much _power_
Personally, I think the "letting go of the metacrisis" could have been handled much better by ignoring the gender aspect and focusing on how Donna has changed.
The Donna Noble of Series 4 was, for all of her growth, still kind of insecure and struggling with feeling worthless, so of course she wouldn't be willing to give up on all the "specialness" that she perceived from the Doctor. Going from a regular human to having all the power and knowledge of a thousand-year-old supergenius, its understandable that going back to being "normal" wouldn't be something she would consider (especially having the 10th Doctor's vanity mixed in).
By contrast, Donna Noble in the 60th Specials has lived another 15 years, reconciled with her mother, married a man who truly and unconditionally loves her for her and raised a daughter she's incredibly proud of. In other words, Donna has found something valuable and exclusive to the normal Donna Noble, which is worth more to her than any amount of power. Thus, Donna can now genuinely consider and accept the idea of just letting the Metacrisis go.
If you wanted to, you could absolutely read this interpretation into the episode as is (or not if you don't want to), but I think this would've been a more satisfying way to explain it in the episode itself than "women are intrinsically different to men".
I love this version so much more!! Omg! Why didn't you write the episode!??!
I thought that whole dig on masculine time lords weird and unnecessary, so this retelling has so much more meaning! I love that! I wish they explored that more.
another thing that can help that plot point. Season 4 Donna couldn't let all that metacrisis energy go, because that much energy leaving would also kill her. And since "some?" of the energy went into Rose they both could let it go safely without it damaging their bodies.
@@Marshmallow95506 It was a dig at men, not really Time Lords, the Time Lords are just mentioned because that is a title. The point they were trying to get over is: man bad, woman good, man power-hungry, woman wise, man moron, woman genius. Which is sexist in and of itself, but ends up being transphobic because 1, male-presenting includes trans men, and 2, the Doctor's ability to understand something so fundamental wouldn't have disappeared just because of regeneration and it would have existed before the 13th Doctor as other Doctors would also have understood the idea of letting something go. Even if they wouldn't think of it working on the metacrisis.
I think the simplest way to change this would be to play off Donna's knowledge of the 10th Doctor from her experience of travelling with him. And Rose should have been oblivious to the fact 10th wouldn't get it. What should have happened is:
Rose: Actually, Doctor, there is a way to get rid of it.
Donna: See, this is something you could never do.
The Doctor: What? Do what?
Rose: Simply choose to let it go.
The Doctor: What?
Donna: You could never let things go. That's why you got us, people to kick you when you need it.
Sure, it would still be a bit clunky since it still means the metacrisis can be just... wished away... but it wouldn't be the stupidest plot twist in DW, let's be honest. And yes, the Doctor know how to let stuff go NOW, but 10th really had a problem with that, so Donna saying that to him specifically would make sense.
I'd like to reference the Curse of Peladon, a Doctor Who episode from 1972 where the Third Doctor corrects their companion, Jo Grant on preferred pronouns. As she accidentally misgenders Alpha Centauri.
I would like to reference Interference but I won't.
There's also the fact that Centauri comes back in Monster of Peladon suddenly having inexplicably switched from using it/it's pronouns to he/him. A decision that can either be chalked up to lazy writing or suggesting that Centauri has transitioned off screen from genderless alien to some kind of transmasc thus becoming the shows first trans character. But you know more likely the former given it was the 70s.
@@nathanyou1899 But at least in Run (one of the new Nine audios) they correct back and use they/them! It's also a banger audio in general, I deffo recommend it (though most of the nine audios slap tbf)
@@AriellaLilien yeah I've heard they do similar in that one off Peladon boxset.
And its not because of the pronoun error being offensive, it was just "the pronoun you are using is not correct"
Besides, the scene with rose felt like she was a little agressive and accusative, whereas the scene with Jo nd the 3rd doctor felt like she was actually curious and the doctor gave her a straight answer
I’m glad that Yasmin expressed that she was okay with the dead naming bc it wasn’t excessive and gave as an insight into what her character’s life can be like. I’m just glad that this young trans performer was comfortable on set and her boundaries were respected.
One small note- Rose lives with her parents because she's meant to be 15! Technically Donna didn't even meet her husband Shaun until 2010 so she should be 13, but RTD admitted to stretching the timeline a bit for the sake of the story, and. 15 is about as young as they could believably make her
After thinking Rose was a college student the whole time, this pisses me off LOL heavy on the "believably" part
@@nuclearseahorse Yes, I assumed she was roughly college-student age, especially because her role in Heartstopper, she's late teens.
If only they could have set the episode in the future. But how the hell would that have worked.
@@lynnhettrick7588 Pretty sure she's 16 in heartstopper, which is probably why they had her play about the same age here. She definitely doesn't look 15 but I mean hey, it's hardly the only case of adult actors playing high schoolers
@@joe-q2n but if it's not set in modern day london, how are we supposed to know it's doctor who!!!!!!!!! /s
yeah as much as i loved The Star Beast, the whole letting go of the metacrisis part didn't sit right with me either, like... why is that something a male-presenting time lord wouldn't understand? And just because the Doctor isn't a woman anymore that means he doesn't understand? Even though he rememebers being a woman? it doesn't really make sense. it's kind of like that shallow kind of feminism i see a lot in pop culture
It's also extremely funny to think about with reference to Thirteen specifically. Like, she was many things, but "emotionally intelligent" isn't a phrase I would use to describe her.
@@natsmith303 IKR? She was so much worse at "letting things go" than many other versions of the Doctor. Even 14 in this episode alone, was shown to be more open with his emotions than 13 ever was (being able to say he loves Donna and Wilf, and being like "Oh, is that who I am now?", cause even he himself was surprised, given how closed off and awkward 13 was with her emotions and around the topic of love lol).
i literaly thought like "wait,,, wasnt the doctor a woman like,, a week ago? why wouldnt he understand" its kind of a strange line,,, and like?? and her saying "male-presenting" just made me cringe, like,,, they tried to make it woke so bad but it just ended up sounding like the same gender essentialist bullshit anyways,, it was kinda dissapointing, since i though the "binary - non-binary" thing was fun and cute and then they went and ruined it by literaly making up a binary betweet "male presenting" and "female presenting" using that language to make it still seem progressive but its shallow imo
I think it made me even more :/ because as a trans man i often emotionaly identify more with women and female characters, whenever im told i cant understand something(even though i do) because its a "woman thing" it just makes me feel shitty and dysphoric, like i have to be emotionaly stunted to really count as a man or whatever lmao, like im very much "male-presenting" but that doesnt mean my identity is way more complex then that
That whole dig about the maleness of the Doctor also came across to me as 'male writer writing what he thinks feminist women want to see'. I know some girlboss types genuinely do think like that, but it seems to be especially popular among male writers who feel compelled to cack-handedly insert a Strong Female Character Moment. Donna and her daughter really didn't need that kind of moment. Supposed 'maleness' didn't have to be put down so they could be raised up! They were already up there! Besides, it could have been written as the Doctor not knowing what to do just because he's the Doctor, rather than because he's male-presenting (usually). It would still be a bit of a hand-wave, but instead Donna could have been like 'You know what your trouble is? You're too clever by half. And because you're always running around trying to be clever, you don't always consider the simple solution. Like this...' and then just casually gave the Timelord-glitter back. That would have got the job done without the iffiness.
I also didn't really like the Doctor being the one to be called out for presuming the gender of The Meep. It would have made more sense to me if it was Donna or Sylvia that did, only to be corrected by both Rose and the Doctor. It's like the writers of this show sometimes forget that the Doctor isn't from our time or planet except when it's relevant to the plot. Surely he would already know not to assume an alien is male? It's not like he's new. My head canon is that Time Lords have a psychic sense of gender identity anyway. The Doctor has corrected people about genders a few times and it kind of makes sense, in a sci-fi babble sort of way, for a species like Time Lords to have adapted to not just relying on physical traits to identify people (especially since we already know they're a bit psychic). It can't be foolproof (especially if you get somebody like the Master who's good at hiding who they are) but it would help to avoid confusion among a species of face-changers to an extent.
that second bit is also a big thing I associate with the Doctor, too
I maintain that the way they should've handled the pronouns is just have rose ask the meep's pronouns when they first meet bc that makes way more sense than forgetting about it until someone (which deffo shouldn't have been the doctor) assumes them. Plus it would've been a good example of behavior to do irl. But yeah, if they were married to that scene specifically, it really shouldn't have been the doctor, since they're a non-human, non-cis, genderfluid character who wasn't raised with the 21st century earth cultural norms about gender, and english isn't even their native language. Extremely weird choice there. (I mean I know why they did it; it was so they could be putting the blame on the doctor as the show often loves to do even when it makes nonsense)
Oh, I like the idea of Gallifreyans being able to perceive psychic gender tags
I’m growing increasingly convinced that Abagail Thorn is at least in consideration for 16. She’s clearly building her profile as a performer and I do think either 16 or 17 will be the first non cis or intersex person to take up the mantle.
i never thought of that before, but I'm in love with the concept now
I would fucking love to see Abby be the doctor
i would watch that so hard
Idk, I know Abigail doesn't necessarily love doctor who; in ep 1 of killing james bond she talks about how doctor who is "often almost good" at best
Omg. I've never considered this before. It's now the only thing I will ever think about ever again.
My first thought when the male presenting line came up was "You're having a go at someone who had been dealing with the pain of losing one of his closest friends for hundreds of years. If there was a way to save Donna, the Doctor would have given up EVERYTHING to make it happen!" 9 took on the time vortex energy from Rose, 12 went through many years of hell to try and bring Clara back and 5 gave Peri the bat's Milk to save her life and give up his in the process to name a few examples. The Doctor is one of the most compassionate beings in the universe. Heck 14 was visibly torn at the thought Donna was going to die to save everyone. He cares so much. That is the kind of compassion that should never be overlooked.
Not only is the line "something a male presenting time lord" a bit cringe, it also is uncessary and I think undermines the previous point the show was trying to make about the Doctor. The Doctor was said to be "male, female, and both, and neither". So to then have the conclusion to the Metacrisis (as unforshadowed & ex machina "let it go" is), be something that a male presenting timelord can't understand--not only is it weirdly saying cis men and transmen (male presenting people) are too dumb, but also completley undermines the gender fluid nature of the Doctor--supose the Doctor isn't both male and female & neither if they're too male-presenting & dumb to possibly understand "letting it go" (& weirdly says gender fluid people are dumber when they're presenting male? Because Rose said male presentng, not merely cis male, so presumably if the Doctor decided to present female that'll change? nonsense)
I also found the use of "non-binary" to be bizare as up to this point I presumed Rose was a transwomen, going by she/her pronouns. At worse it kind of treats "transness" as all one single thing rather than an enormous spectrum.
Is it the observation itself, or the fact that they said "male-presenting?" Would there be a problem if she just said "man"? Seems like if you have a problem with that point people aren't allowed to point out the differences between genders at all. Pretty sure genders are still different, that's why we like em so much.
I kinda agree about the non-binary part for Rose, though to be fair, it was never established that she identifies as a binary trans woman - Just that she was born male and chose to transition into presenting as female. She could still technically identify with the label of non-binary. That being said, I think it's fairly obvious that RTD simply wanted that callback connection to Donna's "binary. binary. binary" line from back in the day.. And honestly, as a fan, I'm cool with it. I didn't feel like it made Rose any less impactful as a character or harmed the quality of her representation overall, and it was a pretty cool connection that I didn't see coming.
Now that male-presenting time lord line on the other hand... Totally unnecessary, and I agree with you that it undermines the previously made point about the Doctor's gender in a really harmful way.
I mean the non-binary part was fine since nonbinary people can be fem presenting doesn't really detract from the representation imo. But I agree I assume that It was just a bit of poor writing that never went through a review process. The doctor as a character at least previously really held on to a lot of trauma and baggage which considering they have lived for basically millions of years. The line totally works if instead of male presenting its the "doctor can't let go" which would also tie heavily into the arc of the rest of the specials in which the doctor sort of learns to slow down and work through that trauma.
I didn't like how the episode seemed to say that Rose being nonbinary is specifically because of the meta-crisis energy, and not just something the character decided for themselves. They made it so Rose was nonbinary BECAUSE of the Doctor Who element, and not just because it's a human thing that can happen.
Yeah, just to add weight to your "it's saying male presenting people are too dumb" point as well as the whole ex machina thing, I (as a cis guy who's just trying his best to understand trans and women's perspectives) didn't really get why they were able to just let go because I didn't think RTD would do such an ex machina thing. So I spent a good week or two worrying that maybe all my research into these topics hadn't paid off and I had proven RTD's point: I, as a male presenting person, didn't understand (I even spent a little while thinking he was trying to make some sort of menstruation metaphor, that's how desperate for understanding I was). Only to learn after all of that that it was a badly written line and a badly set-up and explained plot point.
As a trans woman who is also “male-presenting” that plot device feels icky and transmisogynist, in addition to being a slap in the face to transmasculine people.
I feel like they missed the better option of saying "with Rose not adhering to the binary, she has knowledge and experience I'll never have and since she grew up how she did, she has experiences youve never had and that's why she's able to figure out all the stuff we couldn't. Also, together as the binary and nonbinary meta crisis holders - we've figured out a way to release it so neither of us will be burdened with the threat of death."
Make it some cute parent/child, new generations knowledge vs old, two halves of a whole doctor kinda thing. Not a weird man vs woman thing :/
Just an aside, Donna Noble is hands down my favorite companion. She and Gramps were always so heartwarmingly wholesome and compassionate when it came down to it. RIP Bernard Cribbins, you beautiful man.
absolutely agree, and ive watched all of doctor who (1969-present) aside from most of the chibnall era (i WANT to like the first female doctor. but. god. i cant stand chibnall's doctor who.)
@@monster3339 I haven’t gotten to the 13th Doctor quite yet but from what I’ve hear, Jodie makes a wonderful Doctor, but the bad writing completely undermines that.
@@whentherookbirdsings its really hard to say if shes a good doctor because of the bad writing, imo. she comes off as like... trying to be david tennant but instead being obnoxious 🙃 like yknow how 10 will get excitable and start talking a million miles a minute? imagine that but as one of her only modes, and when she does it shes just explaining what youre seeing in the most blatant example of "tell dont show" of all time.
in what i saw too, it felt like she wasnt really allowed to be as morally ambiguous as past doctors either (my mom, who suffered through all of chibnall, agrees). like, you never get to see her be "Angry Doctor." the way the doctor gets when shes beside herself with anger/grief and is losing control. the doctor who makes everyone in her vicinity shit bricks. the doctor who proves why she needs a companion to stop her sometimes, because without them she risks becoming entirely unhinged. she's all manic, no darkness.
in conclusion, to compare her to mary poppins wouldnt be a fair comparison, imo; marry poppins has more edge...
@@monster3339 ooh okay. I’ll wait to comment on her and form my own opinions because, like I said, I haven’t seen her yet (but I’m close, nearly done with 12). But it’s nice to get some more insight on her! It’s honestly a shame that she had a bad writer, though.
@@whentherookbirdsings 12, on the other hand, is my favorite doctor :) my mom and i have been rewatching all of modern doctor who (we're in early 11 rn), and im so excited to rewatch all of his episodes. "heaven sent" might be my favorite doctor who episode.
i hope you can get some joy out of 13 regardless! everything ive said is just opinion, after all, so who knows, you might like her!
I got the impression from the Wroth Warriors story that the Meep race were changed on a base level, not just "being controlled by". The Meep didn't have the eye thing going on, called it "my psychedelic sun" and when the Wroth were explaining it they said "mutated by the sun" which to me implies like the race were irrevocably changed to be violent and destructive.
Yeah, I agree. I got the impression that the sun caused their species to turn ruthless over time. Plus, the Meep we meet in the episode is the last survivor of their species (and also their leader and apparently the worse of them all). Even if the Doctor wanted to go back in time and change it somehow, at this point with him already interacting with the Meep, it's too late. He can't change events he'd become part of, or it would create a paradox. So.. I'm pretty sure there's just nothing he can do about it tbh.
It would have been nice to state on screen that what happened to the meep was irreversible, but yeah, that's also the impression I got.
@@wendyheatherwoodthey do say that rather than negotiate or surrender they decided to go down fighting to the end, can't fix what refuses to be fixed, and the Meep needed to be tried for all the warcrimes
i’m trans and i felt that some of the dialogue wss a bit clunky and ‘looklook were being respectful!!!’ but i did appreciate that they tried :)
I am simple. I see a Trans Episode video and I click.
Perfectly understandable
Same. Lily puts them all so to the point and I love it
just like me fr
Same
I do the same thing lol
7:00 also peter capaldis doctor refers to having been a woman in the past. That i can remember and i could be misquoting there but it's as accurate as I can : taking about missy "she was a man back then and I was too ..i think" and once he talks about having been a vestal, female priestesses to Vesta.
It’s been a long time since I’ve watched Doctor Who but I vividly remember Missy mentioning knowing the Doctor ‘since he was a little girl’ and I stopped watching a while ago, just after Peter Capaldi became the Doctor.
@@greenginger6668 Yeah, she did say that, though she also said "one of those (the facts she was listing, this being one of them) was a lie" and we never get a clear answer to which one. It's eluded to later though, in Haven Sent, that the other two facts she lists (about stealing the moon and the president's wife) were sort-of true, so I feel like either the "little girl" part was a lie - OR, the lie was because the details were incorrect (i.e. it was actually the president's daughter).
Anyway, regardless of theses throwaway lines, it has been established that in the version of events the Doctor can remember (meaning, putting aside the timeless child stuff for a moment), they were a boy, or at least male-presenting, while growing up on Gallifrey alongside the Master. I'm pretty sure the reason he says "I think" to Bill in that conversation, is mostly to further press his point about time lord perception of gender overall being different from humans.
There were definitely a few moments in this episode that made me cringe ("male-presenting time lord" I'm looking at you) but the scene between Donna and Sylvia in the kitchen makes up for all of it for me. My mom and I both love Doctor Who. She watched Tom Baker when she was a kid and we both loved to watch David Tennent together, so naturally we were both super excited for this episode. When we watched it together, my mom teared up during that scene because it was almost EXACTLY a conversation that she had with my grandmother many times. My grandmother is extremely supportive, but she had a lot of trouble adjusting to referring to me differently. She was constantly worried about using the wrong words to refer to me and would apologize profusely when she messed up my pronouns. I told her that the fact that she was worried about it means that her heart is in the right place, that she doesn't need to worry so much about messing up, because I know she's trying and that's what matters. It was really beautiful to see that sentiment on screen, especially in a TV show that my mom and I both have so much nostalgia for.
Another technically trans character is Lee McAvroy! He is Donna's husband in Forrest of the Dead, aka the second part of River Songs first episode. He was originally intended to be trans! the intention was that he would be trans and able to transition within the simulation, however this got cut for time unfortunately. it does make sense that it was cut, it was already a jam packed episode, but it's also sad
Wow that would have been an even sadder reason for Donna to not recognise him in the end 😢
I always felt so damn bad for him!!!
As a nonbinary trans person whose favorite doctor companion duo was Donna and 10: i could not stop crying this whole episode. Bone-rattling, hacking sobs. My family is very transphobic, I can't risk coming out, and this episode meant the *universe* to me. It's silly, but knowing these characters i love would radically love and accept me hit in a way i can't describe.
The depiction of transphobia in the Star Beast was uncomfortably accurate to the point where I felt physically sick. So they at least got that right even with all the missteps.
I actually met Catherine Tate at MegaCon London last Sunday. At her panel she invited people on stage to ask questions, which hadn't been planned by the organisers but she decided to do it, and I was one of the people who got to meet her on stage. She was absolutely lovely.
What did you ask her :)??
I love that you mentioned the trans character in Church on Ruby Road, personally I loved that little inclusion of a trans character much more, and I wish we got more of Trudy played by Mary Malone! I've rewatched her scenes so many times, because seeing her just be one of the girls is what I've always wanted! Rose Noble was fine but I don't like how they implied her transness was "caused" by the metacrisis, and the fact that it also implies she is also nonbinary despite nothing else in the episode implying she is anything other than a binary trans woman, is just way to confusing and unnecessarily complicated!
Sorry but never had a transcharacter in The Curch of Ruby Road.
@@mayotango1317 What do you think the girl that has a somewhat deeper voice played by a trans actress is supposed to be?
@@PickyPaige You even watch the fucking episode or just are another who complains for complains?
@@mayotango1317 Did you? And what the hell am I complaining about! I enjoyed both trans characters, I just related to one more than the other!
@@mayotango1317
I think you're a bit confused. One of Ruby's friends at the start of The Church on Ruby Road was a trans woman. This comment is praising that.
In the original comics stories that introduced the Meep, the black sun radiation had permanently mutated the species into evil monsters. One novel, set really really far in the future, presented the idea that a colony of unaffected offworld Meeps had survived and ended up repopulating the species after its extermination by the Wrarth; they were somewhat ruthless and still used their cuteness to their advantage - implying those are non-mutated Meep traits - but weren't murderously evil like the black sun Meeps.
not me realizing that it was called turn left because. turning RIGHT leads to fascism. today in 2024. twelve years after i first saw the episode.
The "male presenting" thing is so disturbing. It undermines the whole thing.
Fun fact: Rose is 15 that's why she still lives with her parents (something I find funny is Yasmin Finney is playing a 15 year old while being a year older than the current companion/actor Ruby Sunday/Millie Gibson who is 19)
I keep seeing this and it's just so odd? Yasmin Finney was 18 years old at the time of filming not at her current age of 20 as of 2024. The specials was not filmed now obviously but back in early 2022. I also honestly think it's the makeup they chose for her. Yasmin looks way younger in Heartstopper and that was filmed only a few months earlier than the doctor who specials.
@@josefinariviait was actually filmed back when she was 17. which is WILD to think about like, Corinna and Sebastian (Tara and Ben respectively) were the only adult cast members there everyone else was a fuckin baby that's mind-blowing to me.
it makes the thirst traps weirder though bc like. that's a 17 year old playing a 15 year old
This video is exactly like having an autistic friend that infodumps on you, and I love it so much. The perfect thing to have on while doing a project, just someone who really loves Dr. Who having fun nerd moments, and telling you about how the scenes and the comedy work, explaining the lore. Its amazing, and I would love to see more just like this!!
So pleased to see that not only are you covering Doctor Who on the channel, but that you also have the correct favourite doctor.
Yep, Peter Capaldi was such a pleasant suprise. I went from not liking him at all to him being the best.
There is no correct favourite doctor (my favourite is eccelston)
He seems like a nice guy, very passionate about Dr Who
I liked his storylines the best.
@@EmpireAnts42Omg, love the 9th Doctor love. I really love CE. & I agree, I think it’s rude to say that there’s a “right” favorite to have. My favorite is 5.
If you want to cover some lesser-known trans Doctor Who content, I'd love to see a video on the Big Finish 8th Doctor storyline "Stranded"! One of the major characters in the storyline is a trans woman named Tania Bell, portrayed by Rebecca Root, who gets a cute crush on 8th Doctor companion Liv Chenka and gets to interact with a bunch of different incarnations of the Doctor. We love to see it!
I will note that 8 is very surly in this storyline due to the extreme circumstances he's in, but normally he's one of the more Fun and Human Doctors. He and Tania have some lovely conversations and it's sweet.
Also: I've really developed a soft spot for Mariam Margoyles after watching her show where she journeys across Australia to meet and learn about its people. (And, incidentally, there is an episode where she interviews some trans people!) I didn't recognize her as the Meep until the climax.
I personally think that if they'd just said "Something a timelord like you would never understand" then I think it would have been slightly better. Like, as you say, even 13 wouldn't have considered letting go to be a viable option for Donna to do. Ethier that, or a line like "It's been 15 years mate. Time changes a person" because I think it would have stated yeah, Donna has changed in 15 years, she's grown maybe she can find a solution in time that would be better and maybe just keep the idea that having a kid would help too.
the visual gag for your change in recording setup made me laugh out loud. Also thank you so much for the video! I had left the special feeling a little weird about it's portrayal, but this does certainly clear things up a bit as far as rose goes!
It took me over 30 minutes to realise she's talking into a sock.
Rhrueurueueuw a sock that's so funny
Pumped for this because I'm a trans doctor who fan the same age as RTD said Rose is. Although the representation wasn't perfect in my opinion, I really connected with a lot of it. The scene where Rose gets shouted at by the people who know her was uncannily similar to something that happened to me, and I'm really glad I've got to watch that on national television; it wasn't nice to be reminded but it's a step towards people empathizing with us and our experiences. Also really appreciated Donna being a great ally as someone with an unsupportive/in denial mum. Thanks for the vid :)
There were some missteps but it's from a clear place of love.
loved hearing your take on the new era of who!! i hadn't thought that the "male presenting" line was all that bad at first, even being nonbinary myself, but I definitely understand the problems with it now
curious what your thoughts on bethany black's character in the moffat-era episode "sleep no more" are; you did say you'd devote separate videos to the moffat and chibnall eras so im hoping this was a deliberate omission and not a total oversight 😂
As a cisgender dude... This was valuable. This was a perspective I really wanted to hear and not everything was as I'd expected. Thanks for making these.
Gasped out loud when I saw this video was up, I was super excited to see you were doing a Doctor Who video about the 60th. I appreciate that you addressed the "Meeps were driven mad by the psychadelic sun" thing that the Doctor doesn't try to investigate or help with. Great video!
I highly recommend verilybitchie’s video on doctor who, which goes into the differences between RTD’s writing with women and queer characters vs. Moffat’s and Chibnall’s. I was a huge doctor who fan as a teen but fell off sometime around 2016, and actually recently talked with my friends about how the tenth doctor was kind of my baby butch awakening lol. I plan on catching up with the series eventually and this video has definitely motivated me to do so!!
Waking up to a new Lily Simpson video about trans TV?
That's right, I stay woke 😎
My favorite Doctor was Christopher Eccleston, the 9th Doctor, I started with re-runs of that series, he was fantastic, and then I learned later that the actor himself is strongly anti-nobility and my opinion of him went through the roof.
Donna has been my favorite companion almost since she was introduced. I've only watched the new series, but Donna was the only person up to that point who A) didn't fall in love with the doctor and B) consistantly stood up for what she believed to be right, even if that meant opposing her friend and his centuries of wisdom. Donna has her own quirks, but she was the moral compass and fresh perspective the doctor needed.
So it turns out I never left a comment here when I watched this video earlier so I'm coming back to rewatch it and add this comment to boost engagement and make the algorithm happy.
This video is good, and you should feel good for making it.
meep has transcended gender. they are meep. in the end of times we will all be meep. the meep shall inherit the earth.
As a woman myself, I don't understand what tf the "letting it go" part was supposed to mean lol
Uhh duhh it’s the womanly power to zap alien energy out of your body. You know, that thing all women do when they eject their alien energy. The letting go thing
everyone knows that only GIRLS and watched frozen (2013) /j
@@malaizze
Hmm... well I've never had alien energy in my body to begin with, so maybe I DO have such power!
I think it's about letting go of power in general. That a masc person is less likely to let go of a lot of power even if it would destroy them... Idk how I feel about the message in general but I think that was the idea (ps. I didn't watch the entire video op might say this)
I'm a trans man if that's a helpful view point 😅 I'm not a woman so take this with a grain of salt
I haven't even watched 10 minutes of Doctor Who but I will gladly watch Lily talk about this for an hour.
Same I'm very confused but I'm here to hear all about it
Waiting so much for this, and hopefully this will be an uninterrupted viewing!
Loved the video. The doctor has always been a very gender-fluid character to me, and it’s really cool & reassuring to hear your take on that ❤ thanks as always, Lily!
Beep the Meep was apparently adapted from some doctor who comic in the 80s. Probably a good retcon for the “but the Meep race is insane and thus not in control of their actions” would be to have the beep of all the Meeps be like, “You see, I used the psychedelic sun to make the rest of the Meeps as EVIL as me!” or something.
Also, yeah, I guess the “male presenting timelord” section is not the best. I think the best way to read it as more on the “timelord” part and not the “male presenting” part because it was already established that the meta-crisis being part human/timelord is more mentally flexible/creative because of the mix.
Also, I am personally going to pretend the Cassandra backstory book is non-canon as beyond the weird transphobic conditions, it also kind of feels like a character assassination as the ending of New Earth at least implies that she used to be a good person, so just being like “Oh she married and murdered all of her husbands and stuff” is kind of a character assassination in my mind.
I mean, yeah, she’s a terrible person by the time the series starts, but the ending of New Earth is kind of lesser, in my opinion, if it's like, “OH, she was EVIL the entire time, MUHAHAHAHA!”
-Also, I don’t know the book, so maybe Russell had no involvement in that, like the Star Wars EU- never mind, it appears that Russell T Davies wrote the book. (Though it came out before New Earth, so because of that, I am going just to assume it is non-canon for the above reasons. Just personally going to assume that Russell has changed since that book or something, as that seems to be the case.)
“Soulless psychedelia is no excuse for transphobia” is a quote I want written on my gravestone. Or possibly a t-shirt or a badge or something
I loved the joke about how the doctor’s documentation said “female.”
It did? Lol love it
I love how Sylvia got to grow as a person.
Oh I was waiting for that male presenting Time Lord rant. It really felt like that old gender essentialist trope of "Women be more caring and emotionally intelligent because reasons" and RTD just did the bare minimum to try to line it up with a more neuanced view on gender. It buged my GF and I so much in an otherwise wonderful episode.
I feel like it could have been better handled if they went "With it split between the two of us, we can see a very human solution to the problem. This time lord essense isn’t a part of us like it is part of you. We can just let it go."
I adore Yasmin! She's so perfect in Heartstopper and I can't wait to see her in more things, like Doctor Who.
The only thing I don't like about her in Heartstopper is that there's not enough of her. The male characters in Heartstopper take the front seat, and I get a little bored in the scenes where there are no girls.
Dr Who was really the first place I felt seen in a way I couldn't articulate, and it wasn't until years of learning about LGBT+ that I figured out I'm nonbinary and it helped me make sense of that initial connection. Appreciate the episode!
I’ve been waiting for this episode for SOOO DAMN LONG!!! WE SO UP!
Never seen doctor who but I'm still gonna watch AND YOU CAN'T STOP ME
I thought of the "male-presenting Time Lord" thing as a more metaphorical callout, hear me out here
I think it was trying to say not that a man wouldn't have thought of that, but that the Doctor themselves would have thought of that if they were still 13, as in the sense that since regenerating into 14, their mind was too clouded to think of it. So it wasn't that 14 couldn't do it because he was a man, but because the events that turned him INTO 14 made him too confused and stressed, and he was no longer 13, which does play into the therapy themes they seemed to want to be shown.
Prefaced as always with the fact that I am not trans, but I was not a fan of the first scene where Rose was dead-named. I understand why the scene was there, but the dead-naming felt like it might be potentially, for want of a better word, triggering for people. I've seen an interview with RTD where he mentioned that Rose's dead name means 'doctor' and was another example of Donna subconsciously referring to her forgotten past, and that he felt it was a 'nice' detail to include. I humbly feel it wasn't worth it.
The scene between Donna and her Mum where Sylvia worries about getting it wrong though? GOLD. No notes. I really liked that scene.
From what I've been given to understand, Yasmin was actually given veto power over that scene; if it made her uncomfortable, it would have been cut.
I do gotta say though, it was delightful how much Missy enjoyed being a woman, and I did cry and was hella moved how Heather felt all the tears Bill has cried since their parting. And Bill becoming immortal and a transcendental goddess traveling everywhere with her college crush is just the kind of shiny Who departure I lose it for
Thank you for making these videos, I have been enjoying them and this one in particular.
I am honestly hoping that Ruby’s bandmates become recurring characters like Micky did in the first couple seasons of nu-Who.
Do we start calling this new era neo-Who?
New New WHo or Post Modern Who.
I’m glad to see that I wasn’t alone in thinking the binarybinarybinary/nonbinary/trans/DoctorDonna tangle during the episode wasn’t just confusing for me, nor that the “male presenting timelord” thing wasn’t a touch overboard in the cringe direction just for me.
Like you’re spending the whole episode talking about how The Doctor’s gender is a sort of fluid and relative thing, and how Rose is “more” than the sum of her gender, but because Fourteen presents as male he stupid now ha ha ha girl power!!!!!!!
The story of the specials is that Fourteen needs to let go and chill, something that Jodie’s doctor also very much needed to learn. She’s the most constipated emotionally of a lot of them (partially due to terrible writing making her have to say she’s socially awkward, kill me) for christ sakes! Why couldn’t you just have Donna be like “I always thought this about you and I’d hoped you had learned your lesson in the past 15 years, but you need to learn what we already know- sometimes you have to let go” and then it plays SO NICELY into the rest of the specials!
Must support the precious fluffy cat and the channel but also the cat who likes his hiding spot
Like everyone else said, the "male-presenting timelord" line was suuuuper heavy-handed and vaguely shitty to queer men, and it was especially frustrating because 10th specifically having a bit of a god complex if left unchecked was explored briliantly in the special episodes before his regen. So they could have made a callback to that, and to his personality, instead of this clunky line. But then again, that's the one gripe I have with the episode, so I'd say it's not a bad score overall x) And between that and our new very queer 15th doctor, I'm looking forward to more queerness in episodes to come !
Feeding the very hungry algorithm. Also donna nobel is the best companion.
“Solar psychedelia is no excuse for transphobia.” Is such a great line lol
I love the subtle detail that quality improves as soon as lily regenerates, it’s a good bit
Another super interesting analysis!
I'm pretty sure I followed what you were trying to say in the chapter about the Doctor's gender, but it might just be due to me being a fellow trans, autistic Whovian lol. I mean, I read (and write) quite a bit of DW fan fiction, often specifically ones that revolve around or include discussions of gender - So I've definitely given the topic a lot of thought before. But I feel like your general point would be clear even if I hadn't. Just to make sure I got it right, but please correct me if I'm wrong - You were saying that canonically, the Doctor is an alien, hailing from a society with a totally different understanding of gender, therefore they don't necessarily fall under any specific human labels (including trans ones). That means that by definition they technically aren't trans, however, it also means that they aren't binary either, because again, they don't fall under any labels, including cis-man or cis-woman. Beyond that though, people can choose to view the Doctor's gender however they like.
If that is what you were trying to say, then I totally agree of course (:
I personally tend to read/write the Doctor as genderfluid, though I often include the idea that they don't really use or identify with human labels. When they choose to do so in one of my stories (aka in my head cannon), it's always when speaking with their human friends/companions, and stems from trying to make it easier for them to understand. It's kinda what the Doctor does anyway, whenever there's say, a technical of scientific subject which "goes above their head" as 21st century humans, the Doctor will often simplify it, or try to put it in terms which the humans could grasp (with varying levels of success, of course lol). So, it only stands to reason imo, that they would do the same thing in a conversation about their gender/time lords' perception of gender.
I won't go too deep into what I thought about Rose, or other RTD characters in terms of trans representation, cause otherwise this comment will be as long as your video haha.. But I will say that I agree with pretty much everything you've said! I think almost everyone in the fandom agrees that the whole "solution" to the meta-crisis and the cringy "male-presenting time lord" line, were pretty disappointing and clearly not very well thought out. But, I'm glad that like myself, you didn't allow it to fully distract you from all the wonderful aspects that make Rose great representation anyway! Because yes, she has several qualities and struggles, both released to her being trans and not, and she plays an active, positive and important part in the story; plus her being trans isn't used for laughs or anything of the sorts, it's just a part of who she is. I think that us trans fans know how rare that is to see, especially on a high-profile, family-friendly show, and I for one am very grateful for it.
Would I have liked Rose to get some more screen-time, especially around act 2 (e.g. when the Meep gets revealed as evil and Rose has literally no reaction etc); where she seems to get a bit lost in the hubbub of everything else that's going on? Yeah, def. But lets be real, this was not only technically a Doctor's first/post-regen story and an adaptation of a classic comics story - But it was also the 60th anniversary, RTD's first episode back as showrunner, and the highly anticipated return/reunion of Tennant and Tate. The episode had SO much going on, that really, Rose got a lot more time and focus than I was originally expecting. And as you've said, we will get to see her again! I don't know if you've watched the S14 (or S1, I guess lol) trailer, but Rose is seen in one of the shots, hugging 15 in the UNIT offices. So we do know she'll be back sooner rather than later, and I for one am super excited. I hope she gets more time to shine in a story that doesn't have so much else going on, and who knows, maybe she'll even become a reoccurring pseudo-companion, or even full-time companion in the future.
Anyway, I got sidetracked and ramble-y again, but you keep talking about my favorite aspects of my favorite show, so it's hard not to! lol
(Please never stop tho
appreciating the artful transition at 53:20 . regenerating into better audio is nice too
Oxygen more than hints at "anti capitalism"
you had to ruin by makeup by playing the clip of donna telling rose she'd burn the world... welp there goes my day. thanks i loved this!!!! (and your voice)
I was gonna comment this on your mlp video but it got taken down - you should take a look at the kid's cartoon "shezow", it's like if a genderswap episode was the whole show
I'm glad we share the same favourite Doctor and it seems for similar reason. Twelve could just hold an entire room with his speeches and an entire episode by himself in Heaven Sent, which is my favourite Doctor Who episode. Peter Capaldi was so good at filling the shoes of The Doctor. I've just started getting into the classic Who series while I wait for May.
So happy to see some love for Capaldi. I know it might be more neatly read as an allegory for aging, but I really resonated with his conflict with Clara as she struggled to see him as the same person she cared about before 11 regenerated.
I’m happy seeing you having the same issues I saw with the meep being insane and how Donna and Rose said the Dr couldn’t understand the fix to the meta crisis thing.
This was a fun episode
To your point about why the doctor doesn't go and try to cure the solar psychodelia this episode was a faithful recreation of an OG doctor who comic and so I'm not surprised RTD wouldn't want to change a core aspect of the story he was writing with the original writers just because it was more in line with the doctors characterisation
I didn't see this episode but it's nice to see that Donna is still Donna and is absolutely not against conflict. I mean it's Donna Noble after all, conflict is her middle name... and her prefix...and her suffix.
Conflict Donna Conflict Noble Conflict.
I clicked so fast. I've been waiting for this with such excitement
Ok, first time here, your thumbnail made it look like it was gonna be something I would NOT like, I thought it was gonna be a phobist thing so I could block another user from my suggestions, but THANK YOU for being awesome! Subbed!!
Notes: I had to Google the Ace Ventura thing, that is a very old callback to something I watched once decades ago, and yeah, not great, or even good, at all. Having lived through the early 90s as my college years I can say with some authority vested in me by myself, that society really could have used some more "wokeness" back then. And by woke I mean a tendency toward decency and inclusion and not being a tool.
To what you said about Time Lords choosing to regenerate instead of Dying to, this is covered a bit in the 8th Doctor audio Deeptime Frontier when Rasmus, a TL friend of the Doctor, explains to companion Liv that most TL regeneration happens w/out much spectacle or trauma, that The Doctor never quite got the hang of it because it was almost always due to mortal injury.
She's got a great video on ace ventura, i recommend going through her whole backlog of video essays!
48:23 Thank you!!! I hated that they presented it as the first time the Doctor had ever had a family! Rory and Amy are my favorite companions by far, and it really felt like the show was ignoring all the time he spent with them. They were his friends, his FAMILY!
Yaaassss!!! OMGGG!!! I've been waiting for you to cover this episode as soon as I saw it!!!! It was soooo fun to watchh, and so nice to see more trans representation in such a long-standing and popular franchise!!!! (Unfortunately my sister was a little transphobic when I watched the first episode, so I had to watch the rest of the mini-series myselfff).
YAAASSSS CAPALDI IS BEST!!!! The fact that you are also a Capaldi Stan is enough to make me finally subscribe. ;:)
Most of that episode went over my head. Thanks for pointing out some things I missed upon casual viewing.
I never really got DW, tbh. But seeing this makes me want to see your take on its American counterpart: Quantum Leap.
And hell, also Star Trek.
I love Rose, and Yasmin Finney, but I am absolutely flabbergasted that they tried to pass a beautiful 19 year woman with fantastic voice training off as 14-16 year old. The dissonance kinda took me out of it. Either Rose should be canonically older, or they should have cast a younger, (less passing (please please please)) trans girl
While I don’t disagree, it’s also industry standard to hire people in their 20s to play high school kids.
why do you care whether she's passing or not. kinda gross tbh.
@@olcay8233 I think it's about wanting representation to show that it's okay to be non-passing. A lot of trans women media portrayals are either man-in-dress or very passing, without a lot in between
I love the rambling. Never change
I really loved this video, and the fact that it hardly has half the views really bumms me, I really hope it gets boosted more because I love doctor who and love it when you make content you are interested about.
Hope things are going well with the new cat! I know mine took a while to fully adjust but it's so worth it when they do.
I never got the impression that the psychedelic sun was the actual cause of the meeps madness, but was part of the meeps "tall tale". but I need to watch this one again
In the comics that the story was based on, Meeps were naturally ruthless and took advantage of their appearance; the altered sun made them evil on an almost genetic level, since we also saw a colony of Meeps that weren't affected as a contrast.
1:12:00 Unironically the entire description of how Timelords treat gender, gender roles and gender presentation in this section is so close to how I view the relationship I'd like to have with those things as well. Personally I ID as Agender as I've never been attached to any specific concept of gender (binary or otherwise), so the thought of switching up perceived gender markers like that makes a whole lot of sense to me and is something I'd love to be able to do in the future. Though not to the same extent obviously, I'd definitely love to be able to shapeshift but I have to be at least a little bit realistic.
So yeah, Timelords can absolutely be viewed as trans allegory and be relatable to a trans person's experience.
Agender here, like, yes, i think it makes sense xD
Of all the people that I support on Patreon you are the one that I am most happy to support. I love every video you make, they are just fantastic.
Holy fk it was nice to see I wasn't overreacting to the awkwardness around the Rose situation. Definitely agrees on a lot of the bits.
And if you wanna so commander mine is Oroloth Blue White Black. It's just collecting dust.
Hail to the Meep
HAIL TO THE MOST HIGH
HAIL TO THE MEEP
HAIL TO THE MOST HIGH
THE BEEP OF ALL THE MEEPS
im not embarrassed to say when i saw that lily posted a video on my an episode of my years long hyperfixation, i audibly went “EEEKKKK!!” and clicked and hopped on my bed like giddy child
It wouldn't be post-00s RTD without unfortunate implications.
I’m glad I saw that Lily made this. I almost dismissed this as anti-trans ragebait when I first saw the thumbnail 😅😅