Seven misconceptions about nuns and music (1500-1700)
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- Опубликовано: 17 авг 2024
- For the footnotes and other extra information see the following link:
www.earlymusic...
0:00 Introduction
0:57 Who became a nun?
2:47 "La Monica" - performed by Emma-Lisa Roux
3:54 Classes within the convent
4:36 Polyphony and instruments
7:03 Music education
9:53 Were the nuns heard?
11:44 Polyphony without male voices?
16:58 Reception outside the convents
Created by Elam Rotem, July 2024.
Performance of "La Monica": Emma-Lisa Roux
Special thanks to Inbal Prag, Craig Monson, Laurie Stras, Anne Smith, Lisandro Abadie, Laura Mingo Perez, Candace Smith and Bruce Dickey.
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Fantastic video, Elam! You forgot the top misconception: All nuns can sing/are musical! 😆 I was in the convent for 11 years and loved it. People tend to think that the convent is exactly as pictured-musically-in “The Sound of Music”.
One of my favorite quotes about nuns and (lack) of musical talent… Father Columba Marmion, a Benedictine monk, was asked by some nuns after the day’s liturgy how he liked their singing. With his Irish wit he replied, “My dear sister, some sing so as to imitate the angels, others sing so as to drive away demons.” 😂
It’s a win-win, no matter what!
Thank you.
Elam is just the best musicologist/lecturer.
Was the music printed in Venice?
Great content as always ! The mention of convents desperatly seeking low female voices made me smile.. Some things never change 😄
You can ask a nun once. You can ask a nun twice. But you mustn't get into the habit.
The same can be said of soldiers, actors, judges, roofers, etc. So, what's the aim of your comment?
@@JLHMachancoses, habit, as in nuns’ habiliment or clothing. It’s a joke.
Daaad! Who let you on the internet again?!
Fantastico! Mi è piaciuta particolarmente l'esecuzione di La Monica della signora Emma-Lisa Roux. Grazie .
Merci M. This channel deserves so much more followers.
During one of my first church jobs as an organist, many years ago, the lowest bass singer in the choir was a lady. The sound she produced was not very pretty, but very effective and quite loud ;-)
Being a contralto who went to a girls' school, I'm familiar with the instruction to sing as deeply and loudly as possible, regardless of quality. Because SOMEONE has to hit that low G amidst 35 sopranos. 😂
Wonderful video! Thanks for including women.
With the help of this video I have learned the nun song by heart, the last 2 days.
It is such a beautiful melody and the lyrics are ironic for me to sing because I am a woman who does want to sing day and night.
It is also very pleasant that now I can say "che possela crepar!" and nobody understands what I am saying because I am Dutch and I live in the Netherlands.
So I am quite happy.
I liked the whole video btw.
Thank you so much!
Babe wake up, Elam Rotem just dropped
In Spain I notice there's always a bajon (dulcian) on display in the historic convents. I always assumed these are for nuns for playing the bass part.
Evidently, until at least the 17th century, in Spain there was always, always a bajón playing with the choir, even when (e.g., Lent) other instruments were forbidden.
Another extraordinary video. Thanks for your wonderful effort. Why you didn’t mentioned Hildegard von Bingen? She composed exquisite music before renaissance time. Music that change the history of music due the new harmonies and combinations. She was a nun, musician, composer, scientist, politician, chemist, agronomic, writer, philosopher. Amazing human being.
At the beginning of the video he explained what country and what time in history the video is about. 0:41
Hildegard lived about 500 years before the nuns and music discussed in this video, so the conditions and conventions around musicmaking in convents were so completely different that Hildegard just wouldn't be relevant to this video. Indeed, as famous as she was in her own day, it's unlikely that the nuns of 16th- and 17th-century Italy knew she existed.
This is so good! Nuanced, fascinating, and beautifully paced, as always. You had my full attention the whole time.
I'm a second alto. It feels good to be in such demand!
Fantastic video. So well researched and presented. Thank you
I immediately thought of Musica Secreta, and was pleased when Ms Strauss was acknowledged at the end.
Deborah Roberts, cofounder of the group, has one of the most special soprano voices I've ever heard.
Amazing video and thank you so much for the song.
Well now I'm proud of myself - I looked up the manuscript and transcribed 'La Monica' so I can play it with other people. Thanks for spreading the gospel!
So I am a former 'nun,' who has done some research into how nuns historically lived. I am really impressed how accurate you are. Some people really don't understand the religious life or its history and get it horribly wrong. It is actually one way I can tell if a historian is good or not.
There are still nuns who are still cloistered, probably not as severely as they were in the old days but they still do not leave the convent unless it is an emergency or to see a doctor.
Another great video. 2:34 thanks for giving "iconographic evidence" that we lutenists are neither normal nor super talented!
What an excepcional video! As a theologian I can say that the historical and conceptual production is simply perfect! Congrats!
Fascinating!! Strangely I had not heard MOST of those misconceptions, though perhaps that was because much of my college coursework for early music focused strongly on male composers. The one female I can think of (and she might not be considered early music, as I'm very bad with dates) is Hildegard von Bingen. And of course, she was NOT from northern Italy, haha!
Throughout this episode though I kept thinking about the ways I've always imagined nuns singing, and it all comes back to "The Sound of Music" and the nuns in Salzburg. Now, I know good and darn well that film was set in the 1930s, and was MADE in the 50s or 60s, I know that there's no intention of reflecting on 15th Century practices whatsoever. But even so I recall so vividly the mention of how everyone in the city could hear the nuns singing...and I remember thinking how special and magical that might have been. Oh, sure, most of the time it may have been quite normal and nothing to mention, no different from birdsong or the everyday "background noise" for most folks. But to ME, if I were a time traveler standing in the street hearing them? Enchanting, literally the stuff of dreams.
I'd also point out that - as you've mentioned more than once when discussing musical education and standards for this time period - even partly trained young ladies would have had IMMENSE expectations for their skills, and thus would have been far more proficient in music than, say, the average "Jane on the street" in our modern era. And yet, standards were so very high that they still needed to sometimes bring in more experienced or more thoroughly trained male musicians... that speaks so much to just how dedicated to their music these women were.
The one misconception I had heard about was that all nuns are equal... and listening to your explanation there, I had to wonder why I'd ever believed it. The structures everywhere in their world would have been strongly influenced by the feudal system, plus the baked-in hierarchies of the Church - there was no way a convent was some kind of feminist egalitarian society, though it's a nice fairy tale feeling to think so.
And though there's a cynical part of me that says "of course they were quite happy to take in poor girls with great talent," your point is extremely well made: that "very poor" girl with the good low notes really would have had a much, much better life within the convent, even as a servant-class sort of nun; she would have had better food, better clothing, better shelter, maybe even medical care should she require it. No doubt she would have lived twice as long as a nun than she could have hoped for as a peasant. I can well imagine that MANY nuns knew quite well how lucky they were, and their prayers were full of thanks for their circumstances even if they hadn't joined in the name of pure faith.
I absolutely love this channel. You have opened a new world to me.
fascinating installment. Thanks so much!
I always look forward to and enjoy your excellent videos. Many thanks, from one of your loyal followers in Canada.
Excellent, excellent, excellent!!! Thank you - I miss singing in choruses and especially Pro Arte under John Poole while at Indiana University some years ago. ...fantastic years of Early Music making!!!
Thank you very much. This was really interesting :)
Hi Guys. You have a fan here. Excellent work. May I suggest a chapter dedicated to the Ciaccona? Its origins, ramifications, controversies and influence all the way to Brahms and beyond? Thanks and keep up with the good work
Thank you for an excellent video, absolutely fascinating. I will recommend your channel to my musical friends. I sing in a women’s choir in Israel and we are blessed with good, low voices. We are, I’m happy to add, not nuns
I love this episode too ! I've just heard about a very famous nun compser Francisca Apomayta in her convent Sta Clara in Cochabamba (Bolivia) with the ensemble "Comet Musick" in very nice concert 🤩
Thanks for another great video :)
Bravissimo! One of the most interesting (and beautiful) videos on a very underrated topic in music history
As with every EMS videos I was expecting knowledge and delight. Well, while I had both, I also had nun.
(sorry! I guess nuns and puns go hand in hand)
Grazie Elam♡
Thanks for this most unusual teach-in.
Great video as always! Very interesting that the melody of the song "La Monica" is exactly same as "Ma Belle si Ton Amê" from the same period. Most beautiful earworm ever, wonder if it inspired more arrangers to fit other texts.
It's also very similar to a famous French noël.
Fascinating, as always!
I have spend hours looking for a (decent) recording of la Monica.... and here one falls in to my lap.
When you search "Harer/ Fritz/ Hämmerle | Aria sopra la Monica" you get a very beautiful one! = )
@@andreamundt I am familiar with that version. I think it is a lovely version, other than the "breathing / running out of air mistakes".
But tbh I am looking for a different sound al together.
@@ttaibe I think I get what you mean. I fell in love with this recording because of the recorder
playing, the organ and the gorgeous acoustics of the church.
Yes, Emma-Lisa's singing to the lute is outstanding. Check the other recordings form her own channel. Concerning recordings of "La Monica" on RUclips, most are of the French version "Une jeune fillette", but there is even a duo version sung to the lute, albeit with the different 17c text underlay "Mit Ernst O Menschenkinder".
@@ludustestudinis I am looking for the Italian version specifically. I am familiar with other versions (several French and English ones), but they sound different. A Frenchman playing La jeune Madonna instrumentally and calling it La Monica still sounds French to me. So far at least. People tend to play the way they are accustomed to I guess.
I am in not in any way a musician. But i tend to hear where (classical) musicians come from .
I studied an early 17th-century polyphonic choirbook from a convent of nuns in northern Portugal. The conclusions are pretty much the same as the ones shown in this video. Great stuff!!
truly brilliant episode, thank you!
Great work! Thanks!
The world is truly a much better place because of you and your work Mr. Rotem!
Alfonso was doing the smart thing-following the talent.
Thank you Elam, may I suggest putting together a program with the situation of American and Asian Viceroyal music. (Iberian America and Philippines). Iberian American music would be the right term, since it encompassed both Spanish and Portuguese music. There was a rich production of music in the Iberian Americas in the 300 years of the Viceroyalty. We are avoiding to denominate “colonial” to anything produced in that era. American Spain territories were a kingdom and eventually a Viceroyalty. Spain and Portugal did not have “colonies” in the British meaning, their territories in America and Asia were originally Vice-kingdoms and eventually Viceroyalties. It was a fascinating period with the mentoring of European musicians ,some teaching in Spain and Portugal, and others mentoring European musicians that would eventually come to America. The music in the XVI century between Spain and the Americas Viceroyalty have clearly the same roots, beginning with the XVII century the Americas music starts a “tropicalization” process. Speaking about nuns, just one example: Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, exceptional poet and intelectual, 20:05 born and raised in New Spain (Mexico). She authored a music treatise, “El Caracol”, that is lost, except. For certain excerpts. Some say that it is a myth but her knowledge of music, as noted from his poetry, witness her mastery of the subject. Further, she had correspondence with a Bolivian musician , who ask her to compose music for some of her poems. Fascinating situation considering distance. Well I will stop to keep other anecdotes for your next program of renaissance and baroque, that was not only played in the Americas and Philippines, but that inspired a number of composers. Very best
This was amazing and fascinating, and I look forward to learning more about this music. I'd only even been familiar with Hildegard up to this point, and the orphan girls in Venice for whom Vivaldi composed music. I'd love to investigate the music of nuns more; it's not that strange to imagine myself in a medieval/Renaissance convent, actually. It would be worth it to avoid dangerous childbearing, and frankly I'd be happy to go wherever the music and the books were.
A good book on the subject is "Nuns Behaving Badly" by Craig Monson.
LOL Misconceptions about some misconceptions.
All convents (with nuns) were for females only. Not so, double monasteries housed both male and female religious and the common chapel (the public chapel) served both. The Brigettine foundations were often double or dual monasteires, under an Abbess. Institutions founded as hospitals or asylums would usually have both female and male religious and auxilliaries, the priest and choir and a mother superior with attendent choristers.
All convents were strictly enclosed (with no way out for its female inmates). Again, not so. Not only were Abbesses notorious pilgrims, with tales to share, some convents were not 'monasteries' but more like ladies colleges or clubs (at least for the elite, at times scandalously so), and other monastic types were lower class efforts for widows and the unmarriageable (social work affairs); all made some effort to sing the Hours of the Lady's Psalter or to prayer the 'rosary' in common etc; the convent door was meant to keep the world out not the sisters in.
All convents of females (or indeed of males) had only one choir. This was, for the most part, true; choiring and music-making can be an expensive business, and, believe it or not, monasteries generally existed on a tight self-supporting budget even with generous benefactors.
All convents were like prisons, with no entertainments, public holidays, private libraries, schoolrooms/work-facilities, or means of making money for the commune. This was, for the most part, untrue. Convents were, specifically, local hubs of activity especially where the enclosure was part of the regular social interaction (not just an exclusive girl's club); and the care of elderly ladies and young girls with no lawful means of upkeep or publicly funded social security was not abundant .. only notoriety, concubinage, marriage, or drudgery were on offer .. this was the stark reality - the other options are found in areas where the relative though decidedly irksome or drear freedom of the single life lived in a community were not available, e.g. singing on the stage for one's supper or teaching as a hired school mistress (while this was still possible) were liberated ideas yet not exactly secure posts (if the novels are anything to go by).
Hmmmm?
:o/
All good points, but the video is explicitly about the situation in the mid- to late sixteenth century in Italy where there was strict enclosure, no double monasteries etc. Of course there were institutions that were specifically there to care for poor, indigent, or disabled women. But these were largely limited to spoken/chanted offices and were unlikely to have testementary obligations. It’s an accurate, accessible telling of the story. Who could possibly object?
@@lauriestras2528 I heartily agree; there can be misconceptions about the misconceptions on misconceptions of .. some aspects of institutes of religious life for females c. AD 1500-1700. The Abbess of Goleto, in Italy, was, for example, a singular not just an unusual case of a female-led double monastery in trouble; its last governing abbess died in the early 16th century, though the foundation had been in decline before that. So the actual Divas in the Convent were a good deal more common - and rebellious if not revolutionary - than in Nuns On The Run; moreover, giving the local bishop a headache was somewhat of an olde tyme Mother Superior's privilege and something of an Abbesses 'right' .. but fractious and indeed worldly nuns were not an invention of the twentieth century (even over so simple a thing as singing Our Lady's Psalter without guitars and hippy-hippy-shake innovations), ask Catherine of Genoa and Teresa of Avila amid their woes (and say a wee timeless prayer for the benighted bishops who had care of them).
God bless. ;o)
Glad to see my Ferrara referred to twice!
SALUTE. (Indian - Namaskar.) That was so refreshing to watch this episode. Loved it, and I am so enlightened.
Love & regards
from India.
this is exactly what I was looking for.
Excellent, Elam, thank you!
Come mi piace i tuoi video! Veramente instruttivi e ben fatti! Auguri, Elam!
This was great Elam. Thank you!
I loved this episode 👏
This makes an exceeding great amount of nun sense.
Hi! Can you make a video about John Dowland's songs?
This was exzellent, time very well spent. Thank you very much for the hard work and dedication!
Thank you for this fascinating video!
Absolutely brilliant!
Nuns are such a broad subject.
Where's the 'groan' icon?
As italian, I didn't know tha 'Monica' can be used as ancient form for 'Monaca' (nun)
NEW EPISODE 🎉
Many thanks for this enlightening video. 🙂
OMG!! THESE GRAPHICS ARE STUPENDOUS!!! Thank you for another utterly fabulous & informative video. I want to become a nun!!🌷💕🎶💐🎵🌸✝️
I really love this channel!!!
Exceptional singing!
Amazing video!
I recognize some research by Laurie Stras in this episode! Also, dowry inflation in Venezia in the late 16c was definitely a contributing factor.
[oh I wrote this comment before I reached the end of the video with the comment section, but also I know one other person who is working on voci pari repertoire via vatican sources, but she's not published as yet!]
Great presentation, tu.
Fascinating video!
as good as it always is. Thanks again
Great Videos I truly learned a lot! I'd be interested
in a video about invertible counterpoint not only
at the octave but also at the fifth and how to use
it in 4 or 3 part improvisation/composition. I've seen that Zarlino writes about it and I found two pieces by Tallis (the two felix nanques from the William virginal book) that uses it and I think I get the basic structure but I don't understand the little changes to fit the mode.
Grazie molto! I had been wishing the day before this was published that a new video of yours would come out. And, just so you have an idea of how it has been in Pennsylvania, I was taught in school all the proper information about those misconceptions. It is, in later years than you discussed here, how Vivaldi's musicians at the Ospedali della Pietà were heard by visitors from far and wide. Those women were famous.
The Rolling Stones were granted ecclestiastical permission from the Abbottess of their local nunnery to employ her choir to sing on You can't always get what you want, in the Year of the Lord, 1969, A.D.
Maybe the fact that their manager was prince Rupert von und zu Löwenstein, a traditional catholic and a knight of Malta, played a role in that.
Great video as always. And what a surprise! I love Emma! Wonderful Monaca ❤
Thanks!
My mom said Id make a great nun!! Would my music training be better? Only God knows.
Great video!
Oh, what about Ospedale della Pietà and Vivaldi? Was it strictly "behind a grate" stuff really?
Yep, it was.
Whoever composed _Musica quinque vocum motetta materna lingua vocata_ - who I believe to have been Eleonora d'Este - was damgud.
From an earlier era, Hildegard of Bingen.
"Organ lesson". Loved the "double entendre". lol
Very interesting!
Yes, the nuns had the time and possibility to get involved in music and other interesting stuff mich more than the women outside. They usually were raising their children and helped their husbands in their work.
So, being a nun was not as bad as most would think.
I hope everyone realizes that not all nuns were cloistered. Most religious orders had vocations to work "outside". Whether it be tending to the sick, helping a poor family, catechizing the faithful, or many other things.
Also, please look into the Orthodox Christian nun St. Kassiani, the first known female composer.
3:43 now I know where the German word "krepieren" comes from 😂
Que delicia de video, algo conocía de Isabella Leonarda.
Existirían monjas compositoras en el nuevo mundo? Qué hay de cierto que algunas ordenes usaban instrumentos qué debían sonar deliberadamente horrible con el fin de evitar la sensualidad de la música hermosa?
I think there must certainly have been nun composers in colonial Spanish America, but if their music survives today, it's very likely in manuscript without the composer's name (and thus classified as anonymous). The reason we know the names of these nun composers in 17th-century Italy is that they had their music professionally published and the prints survived. I doubt that option was available in the New World.
What about religious places like the Ospedale della Pietá in Venice where Vivaldi taught, composed and conducted the all girl choir and orchestra there? The orchestra and choir were considered to be the best in Venice. Nuns and older members of the Coro taught the newer girls. How did this square with the information you presented in this fascinating video?
I Hope you would have mentioned Hildegard von Bingen
Were sich masterpieces like Josquin's Recordare virgo mater popular among nuns later?
0:29 "hardly something we can imagine today"
While seclusion has become laxed, nuns certainly still exist.
Unlike the priests of the last couple of centuries, quite a few nuns were impregnated by the priests.
Pentiment game assets.
Wonderful video, but we don't have to imagine nuns. They still exist. Their numbers are dropping, but there are hundreds of thousands of them all over the world. Surely everyone's heard of Mother Teresa?
how about here musical skills?
In my small hometown, a priest conducted a nuns' chorus and a children's chorus that performed all over the state to raise money for charity.
women! singing polyphony! playing the organ! this woke Renaissance has gone crazy...
Regarding the low female voices this female-only recording of Vivaldis Gloria at La Pieta is quite interesting: ruclips.net/video/cgaOVV4JQHA/видео.html
I can sing to baritone range and soprano too. I am not rare in this.
Thank you! Who is the composer of the "Monica" sung here?
I don't think the melody was composed by any specific person. It was basically a Renaissance era folksong.
❤
Emma-Lisa Roux please don't become a nun. Marry me instead. Greetings from Greece!
Shades of Yma Sumac!
very Floriani centric :)
However, those girls who ended up in a convent escaped the horrors of repeated childbearing, which was all-too-often deadly. The convent was a site of empowerment for certain women, free from the unwelcome erotic attentions of men. Finally, nuns could most certainly travel outside the convent at times-see the life of St. Teresa of Ávila, who traveled all over Spain. I can recommend Cesar D. Favila’s wonderful book on the musical lives of nuns in New Spain, “Immaculate Sounds.” Thank you.
תודה אלם ! IHS ברך ! 🙏✝️⚜️
כי הנזירים קדושים נשים תפילה ללך !
ש 🕊️☦️🔥
🪔📜🎼
La monaca (not Monica)