It works the other way around as well. If you are mentally fatigued at a certain day. Any system can be too much and your system doesn't sound good. I thought it was my system but it was me. The way music is experienced is a reflection of oneself.
I agree! When my mental mood is right, a listening session can last between 4-8 hours (or more) as my attention span and emotional involvement with the music seems to never wane! Sometimes, although my system/music presentation is exactly the same (still mind blowing), after 1-2 hours I'm ready to go and do other things! 🤔 😉😎
I totally agree, this is 100% my experience. And it does not only apply to music, it applies to a lot of things, too! The mental state you are in defines a lot of your experience...
Three experiences: 1) My 2003 Nissan Sentra's factory stereo is surprisingly good (much better than my 2020 Honda Accord's factory stereo). I can listen to it on long trips, and enjoy every minute of it. It came with a CD tray and radio -- that's it. The CDs stopped ejecting. It sounded like a gear in the motor wore out. So I had to replace the head unit. I replaced it with a Pioneer unit, at the recommendation of a Crutchfield salesman. Well, I could never finish a song. It wore me out. It was yelling the music at me. After not completing 3 or 4 songs, I had to turn it off, for my sanity. I sent it back to Crutchfield. I did not seek any other recommendations from them. They do carry some excellent home speakers. So they are on the ball. I just did not want to deal with them again for my car stereo. Fortunately, I found a very good installer that worked out of his home, and kept many different units in stock. In his driveway, I tried a JVC, and then a Sony. Both of them were boom-y and trebbly, with everything in the neutral position. They tuned it for sizzle boom. Like having too much salt on your fries, those units grinded on my nerves after a few seconds. There was nothing natural about their sound quality. The last brand that the "store" carried was Kenwood. I never hear anything by Kenwood. To my surprise, it sounded a bit better than my car's stock unit, and I could play all of my music via a USB flash drive. I was back in business, enjoying music on every drive, never getting fatigued. Big thumb's up to Kenwood's Excellon head units. And they were not expensive. I think I paid $150 + labor for the installation. 2) When my local high-end store installed my upgraded speakers, one of the incompetent installers connected my right speaker out of phase. My upgrade sounded worse than what I had, and I could not figure out why. I could not listen to it for more than a few minutes. It took a fair amount of complaining to the store's owner, and finally to the manufacturer's owner when I met him, and the store sent over a skilled installer who had a great ear. It took him 20 seconds. He heard the problem after only 10 or 20 seconds. He checked the connection to both speakers. He corrected the wiring problem, and it sounded great. I can now listen all day. No fatigue. But with that problem, the fatigue factor was 9.5 out of 10. I believe that fatigue sets in when you keep craving for something to be different with the sound quality. When something is wrong, it grinds on your nerves, and fatigues you. Whether it be too much bass, music yelling at you, a phase issue, unnatural sound, etc, it is fatiguing -- especially when you listen, critically. 3) I purchased a set of AR (Acoustic Research) Powered Partners speakers in 1993 for my first computer (A Gateway 2000, with a DX/2 66 mHz CPU, 8 MB RAM, and 340 MB hard drive). That was when computers needed a sound card, otherwise all you got were beeps. There are certainly better desktop speakers. But I still use those AR speakers for my current computer, because they sound very good, and do not fatigue me. They throw a good soundstage, and exaggerate nothing.
My 2014 Hyundai Elantra is okay but it's a pain in the butt to swap out the unit. One thing I've noticed is that flutes sound terrible in the system and can be aggravating.
Getting a system just right, with detail and separation, while avoiding brightness, is super tricky. Funny enough though, from what I’ve seen a lot of audiophiles inflict fatigue on themselves by virtue of the never ending chase. They had it right once upon a time and borked it by swapping components.
Paul, what I have found is most people fatigue over “brightness” as defined by an overly hot top end or treble. However, in my experience, the harshness that I’ve encountered is in the midrange and vocals. More specifically sibilance and vocals that emphasize “T” and “S” sounds right within the 1 to 3 kHz range. Thank you
My personal mood isn’t the same all day, every day. At one time during a particular day, I may be in the mood for concert-level audio, so I choose an album or SuperAudio CD that’s appropriate for that energetic level of sonic tones-I get my fix and then move on. During another part of that same day, however, I may not be sporting so much energy, and want to just unwind and chill, so I’ll choose an album that’s appropriate to satisfy me then, set a lower volume, and I get an appropriate fix and move on. I believe music should be fluid to match our mood.
I find if you can fall asleep after a hard days work, while listening to your favorite albums, and be woke up due to some unexpected dynamic bass transient, and if on your day off your continually pulling out album after album, your onto a good thing.
After auditioning many top brands of spkrs, within my budget, my choice was clear to me. I bought a set of Von Schweikert Audio Endeavor 3 SE’s. In their price range, they reproduced the most natural, realistic sound I’ve heard, & at times have me held in disbelief of what I’m hearing. Listening fatigue is nonexistent🔊🥰.
As a musician, listener and audio engineer have found that when there is lots of sound around the human voice ranges especially, either too loud or its too busy and complicated, 2 things things can happen for me if things dont get balanced or even removed. My ears can shut down quickly as my ears will get tired, or my brain will get overwhelmed and get exhausted, but some combination of the 2 really. though I generally am appreciating more quiet now, Its an oxymoron that as our hearing degenerates, it seems to feel like it gets louder.
I worked in a very noisy environment in a sound proofed cabin. If I had to go out of the cabin I had to wear hearing defenders. My ears weren't affected just my hearing had to be protected.
A wonderful way to avoid or reduce listening fatigue is to use DSD instead of PCM. PCM sounds more exciting, more spectacular (in some cases quite desirable), but has something aggressive, sterile and clinical about it. DSD is somewhat denser, warmer, more natural and less detailed at first. However, the details are all there, just less in the foreground. However, DSD is in a different league when it comes to spatial information such as reverberation, echo and quiet background noises; you have much more of a feeling of being there, everything seems so relaxed and natural without hiding anything. Perhaps the reason for listening fatigue is also that our brain tries to compensate for a certain unnaturalness or aggressiveness, which of course requires a lot of computing work on the part of our brain.
In the mid 70s when making commercials for the UK's Independent Broadcasting Authority (commercial) radio stations we used NAB cartridges that once recorded had to be checked for phase alignment by ear so as to be compatible with mono radio receivers as well as checking volume levels, stop / start points etc. Sometimes this would involve the same commercial being put on to several dozen cartridges. As you state it is regarding the higher frequencies and in this listening case was not volume dependent. After an unspecified amount of time which varied depending on content as a commercial with no music soundtrack typically did not contain as many high frequencies, it was impossible to even tell stereo from mono and one would have to take a break of at least 20 minutes before continuing.
I struggled for years with a system without details, not bright, thinking that listening with a flat curve is the solution for clean sound, but investing more money in the equipment, I realized that flat listening is not good, the curve is adjusted after your ears Making the difference between the masterings, now I think that the quality of the mastering matters the most during the listening time! That is, a bright sound with a good mastering quality is the solution for me!
I've wanted to move away from a system in the past that lacked a little excitement (pipe n' slippers) to one that verged on bright (in yer face) with poorer recordings. The more revealing nature of what I moved to ended up causing a small irritating degree of fatigue which once heard can't be unheard and took a while to reveal itself, maybe due to aging and a very mild onset of tinnitus. I've finally ended up with a system that pairs speakers that some might call bright (B&W 803D3's) with an amp some might call warm (McIntosh MA9000). The pairing complement each other perfectly. Good recordings sound great without adjustment and poor recordings are OK but can be made better through the Mac's equaliser. This might not be the most purist approached, but it's certainly the most satisfying. Ultimately, in my experience it's a case of choosing components carefully, auditioning always (past a certain price point where dealers are willing to accommodate), room acoustics, hearing acuity, personal preference and system synergy. Plus putting in the effort to get the best of what you have and an acceptance that recording quality varies, sometimes dramatically. And perhaps accepting that whatever you have will never be perfect which leads to listening more to the music and less to the system which is ultimately why we're here.
Interesting. I wonder not a lot of people mention room acoustics. Maybe that's good already in most people's cases, sadly in mine it's the opposite. For me, a great deal of brightness/fatiguing came from the room. In the process of solving that now and it's like a big lever to pull.
@@Kah0ona I'd suggest absorption, either through DIY experimenting or a company like GIK for acoustic panels. Good luck, but bear in mind too much absorption can make a room sound dull.
It's amazing what you said about finding that sweet spot of resolution of detail vs a pleasurable listening experience that's not "dull." That's the thing we chase isn't it, that Goldilocks zone. Once you find the one that works for your ears and brain, yes, the volume stays down lower, and everything is there in abundance. It becomes about the performance and the performers, and not the equipment. This is a Eureka moment, and it takes a lot of time and effort to achieve it without having to compromise too much. I mean, sure there is no perfect system, but once you 98% of the way there and you can sit down in your comfy chair and experience a great piece of music, you've done it.
Room acoustics are also very important. Even without music. If you’re living room is full of people, and the acoustics is not good, that can also fatigue. And the volume is imported to.
Boy, isn’t that the truth. The minimalist archietecture of some houses, and a lot of public places is killing me. As I get older I appreciate more and more the rather cluttered accoustics of older structures - often with wood floors and walls.
Absolutely. Wooden houses have some absorption quality but apartments have concrete walls. A medium living room 3x5 meters with low ceilings, less than 2.3m can be very vibrant. This over liveliness can be very fatiguing. Especially the low ceiling.
From my experience, listening fatigue is as a result of boosted high frequency, especially inaudible ones. When I first built my DIY integrated amp, I used a small box that could only fit a toroidal transformer standing on its side. As a result, I had a high pitch 17khz hiss which I could not hear but caused uneasiness when listening to music. I only noticed it after running a spectrum analyzer on my phone. I broke apart the system into separates and solved the issue but introduced new minor ones that are much more tolerable.
I've had many systems over the years. The ones I could listen to for hours were ones with the bass and treble complementing and giving impact to a revealing and detailed midrange.
Hi from Denmark. To avoid listening fatigue, though my set-up rarely is the factor, turning down the volume, for low level listening, is the key. Then ur amps will "only" put out, the few firsts watt (Class A), which is quite a thrill to exsperience. Cheers from Denmark.
I remember listening to a preamp and monoblocks at a retailer, which I decided to purchase. There was an immediacy about them but over time, I found them fatiguing as they sounded harsh. I think it’s important to spend several days evaluating a component but I understand that many people do not have the luxury of being able to loan equipment, which I am fortunate enough to be able to do. I also suspect that even with a balanced sounding system, there will still be some recordings that are fatiguing, although they should be in the minority.
Thanks for your great series, Paul. I always found that listeners fatigue happens when the illusion of the soundstage isn't correct and the brain tries to compensate for that. Also, my current system is a bit too bright for my taste but not fatiguing at all.
I couldn't agree more. Most highly resolving systems I've had over the years have worn me out. As I got more experienced, I have chosen systems that I would say have truth in tone....the instruments sound real and the voices sound human.
fatigue because of the system is maybe a thing... but I think maybe the bigger factor leading to fatigue is the music. I have an "entry" level audio system, nothing to brag about... but I find that what fatigues me is recordings that are very compressed, and very loud (as in loudness, not volume). I am very likely with such recordings to think to myself: "I just can't stand this noise, and I can hear the distortion which is just in the recording... yuck!!! ".
I've noticed that some people who say they prefer instrumentals to vocals have unclear midranges in their hifi systems. They really strain your ears. Something I stumbled onto to help assuming you have your speakers reasonably placed is this. Place a high value 1 watt resistor across your speaker terminals. This will not overload your amp as the change of nominal speaker impedance is subtle. Please use a reference quality recording when doing this. From experience use values of 330 Ohms and greater. You will need to find the optimal value for your system and the left and right speakers may need different values. If you go below optimal you will lose dynamics. Easy and cheap fine tuning should you need it.
Higher order harmonic distortion is said to be more objectionable to listen to.Amplifier clipping,an elevated top end as Paul says and any obvious unwanted resonances can all play their part. Poor recordings too.
Not all higher order harmonics, but specifically odd order (x3, x5) higher harmonics. Even order (x2, x4,...) harmonics produce smoothness a rounding. Some amp designers are known for using this. Odd order harmonics are harsh and not musical.
If you recall the 1970's audio ads from EPI, they suggested their speakers didn't evoke listener fatigue. There is more to it than volume or strident HF response. It also involved balance of frequency response as close to -3dB's for a loudspeakers response curve. But lets face it... some folks gots no taste in speaker performance. There are other variables involved fer sure.
I agree Paul. But, I also think it is much more likely to experience listenier fatigue when your listening to CD's, then LP's. Some CD's sound artificial and overly bright, and like you said when you listen to music to loud. I could never understand why when you go to a music concert the volume has to be as loud as it is? It does'nt. I remember one concert I attended and I won't name the artist, but the volume was so loud that I could hear the Band outside the indoor venue when I was leaving, and it was so loud that you could not make out some of the words to the songs when the singer was singing. That is just ridiculous. It does not need to be so loud. And it is very bad for our hearing. I intend to have almost perfect hearing when I am 90 so I always wear ear plugs because concerts are just way to loud. But, I agree with you Paul
Yes. I agree. Also systems without enough bass are fatiguing if you want bass. You end up turning up the volume and the mods and highs are fatiguing and often ear damaging. Many audiophile system I have found are in the category. I hear that is not what PS audio is about. One day I need to hang out in y our listening room till I am kicked out.
I ear a lot of different sistems, mixing a lot of brands and sets from the 60 to actual, and the best ones are the ones that I fall asleep, despite the volume of the sound. Others after 5 minutes is a total ear fadigue.
I found quality of crossover components to be very important. When I upgraded the crossovers of my Tannoy dual concentrics (used all mundorf components) it made a huge difference. More detail, better soundstage but much easier and less fatiguing to listen to.
Paul's response was oversimplified (but he knows it). A flat frequency response from the mids through the highs is theoretically ideal, but if there is subtle distortion (or not so subtle distortion) it will be irritating to a greater or lesser degree depending on your sensitivity to said distortion. And distortion in this range can make the music sound etched -- or bright. Example: I built speakers with top quality tweeters that were flat, clean, wide dispersion, and extended to 30,000 cycles or more, but to listen to them I had to roll off the treble. Then I brought the rest of the system up in quality, which reduced distortions. Then the speakers sounded great, with the treble flat. See his video "Distortion affecting frequency balance".
In my own amplifier design research it became obvious decades ago that odd harmonic distortion was far more fatiguing than even harmonic distortion, even when the even harmonic distortion was at or above 1-2%. My goals were to reduce the odd harmonic as much as possible and to keep even distortions at or less than 1%; far easier said than done.
My experience is that you get fatigued when your brain has to fill in for too many deficits. We have great ability to compensate for frequency response errors, that "only" costs energy. Phase errors can also fatigue, but that is a much different deal as our brain uses phase to tell us where danger is coming from (fight or flight). We have no ability to compensate!
When I first set up my listening/theater toom the sound was very muted, it sounded like it was being choked out. This not only caused me fatigue but it stressed me out. It hurt to listen! I have fixed it and I can now listed with a smile.
From my POV much of the fatigue is due to the source material as well as the character of the overall system and components. I have a pair of ML Electrostatic speakers with dual external sealed subs and I listen primarily to digital through Roon, Qubuz and uncompressed files on my Small Green Computer server going through a PS audio Gain cell DAC, in a nicely treated dedicated music room. The ML’s are extremely revealing of the pros/cons of the recording. I also have a decent turntable and dedicated phono preamp. The digital sources sound great but over time some but not all tracks definitely induce fatigue. When I take the effort to clean and prep an album for playback it always sounds far more soothing and also less dynamic in some respects with far less if any fatigue. Don’t misunderstand I love digital for its utter variety and ease of use and if I had to choose one format to live with it would be digital. But the sweetness and smooth texture of analog from a well recorded album is vey intoxicating and supremely enjoyable too.
Working in the automotive industry developing sound systems for particular vehicles, we would have design goals to outfit a particular model vehicle with at least two different amplifier / speaker compliments for different trim level (different price points). The goal was to have about the same frequency response at the ears, even though one system has four full range speakers and the other trim level has at least nine speakers, driven by either five or nine amplifier channels. One of my tasks was to critique the sound systems. Often the two vehicles would initially sound similar, (with the entry level sounding surprisingly good given its budget) but after a short time I would have to turn the entry level vehicle’s volume lower and lower due to listener fatigue, where I could listen to the higher trim level sound system for hours without the need to turn it down. Though they tonally sound similar, I attributed the differences to distortion. Driving and equalizing four full range drivers to match the tonality of the premium system causes all sorts of distortion; cone breakup, driver compression and Doppler distortion. The premium systems have 2- or 3-way electronic crossovers to allow each speaker to work within its ideal frequency range and therefore produce much lower distortion.
Great video on a relatively untouched topic. I find that fatigue comes in from being too close to the speakers as well as the points mentioned in the video.
I remember getting in a friends car once, and he must have had the treble turned all the way up, and it just sounded awful. To make things worse he had the volume cranked up, and it was screeching, and it made me want to tear my ears off. Somehow he must have thought more treble means more clarity, nope nope nope!
An echo-y room with hard surfaces/walls without any first reflection absorption can be very fatiguing, even if the speaker themselves are perfectly flat. I struggled with that one until I applied room treatment. I also tend to set the brightness around the loudest I like to listen to the speakers, without loudness control that means that the highs and lows steadily drop off the lower the volume. So for background listening this is great, more focused listening isn't fatiguing and at full power it sounds best. Something like that. What's also tiring is a resonance or a faulty cone that hits the magnet or some other distortion that only some music reveal, it can be aggravating to find out what's causing it. You can't relax into the music because it just doesn't sound right. Especially with DIY speakers, it's an endless rabit (rabid? ;) hole. Luckily at some point I've found the sweet spot in speaker, driver, cross over, room treatment etc. it sounds the way I want it to, and that's all that matters to me.
Inaccurate frequency response leads to subjective lack of loudness which makes people turn the volume up too high and that leads to fatigue. This is far more apparent on headphones than on speakers. Listening to music too loudly also makes your ears compensate for the noise by tightening the ear drum and basically protecting itself from noise, and that makes you hear less detail as well.
I find that finding the right volume for a room makes all the difference. ROOM ACCOUSTICS MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN FATIGUE. Carpets, , Drapes, Wood,VS concrete furniture materials.and the speakers, but most of all the music itself, the recording quality
If the system is hard-edged and bright, or the room has little furnishing, or rug/carpets (it can make your system sound 'shouty'). Heavily compressed recordings (pop and rock recordings, for example) including podcasts (which is why I never listen to those things), are also very fatiguing. Roll off the treble, or stick some thicker rugs in the room to compensate. :)
I did short visit to my audiophile friend in other city to hear his new setup, especially new horn speakers. In order to test it and to compare mine, I used The Who - Quadrophenia. I noticed bright sound with loads of details and it was WOW! effect at once. There wasn't much time for me to listen because of lots if things I had to, but I memorized how it sounded. When I came back home I took same song and played it on my sistem and it was completely different. It lacked details. Than I started to experiment with bass and treble and with +4db if treble sound become in pair with what I heared at his place. It was a bit disappointment form because I tend to listen my system in direct mode. I thought it would be a good idea to leave treble this way. Boy I was wrong! With treble like this it sounded great for first 10-15min, but later I had huge fatigue. Then I did 2+2 math and concluded to turn treble back to zero. To make long story short, after I did that I could listen my system whole day even heavy metal without any fatigue at all. Just my two cents!
In my opinion, listener fatigue when listening to audiophile systems can be attributed to several factors. One primary cause is improper frequency balance, where certain frequencies are overly emphasized or attenuated, leading to a harsh or unbalanced sound that tires the ears. Poorly recorded or mastered audio can also contribute, as any distortions, clipping, or compression artifacts become more pronounced in high-fidelity systems. Another significant factor is the acoustics of the listening environment. Rooms with poor acoustic treatment can cause reflections, standing waves, and echo, which muddle the sound and force the listener to strain to hear details. Listener fatigue can also arise from overly loud volumes, as prolonged exposure to high decibel levels can be physically tiring and even damaging to hearing. Finally, personal sensitivity and listening habits play a role; extended listening sessions without breaks, especially to complex or dense music, can lead to mental fatigue.
Not just brightness. Digititis is a real thing. Not just details but a harsh sound. The fatigue is your brain working at full processing power to do it's best to interpret the noise as natural sounds. My wife suffered a stroke. The area of the brain that provides sound discrimination was damaged. As a result she was acutely affected by listening fatigue. To the point of total mental breakdown. Working with her over years of rehab drew to my attention the critical nature of listening fatigue. We all suffer it with background noise and crappy sound systems accosting us day in and day out. It takes a bigger toll than we realize.
Hi Paul, since you are a curious fellow and talk about listening fatigue and your ears getting tired, I thought you might want to know about the stapedius muscle, one of the smallest muscles in your body. It is in your ear. Your intuitive description is likely, at least partially responsible due to this muscle. Curious? Google can be your friend.
Something Paul knows or I hope he knows is most systems that playback is fatiguing is usually bad current entering your electronics especially your sources,and today’s digital sources are more susceptible to it and comes out as bright and fatiguing,such as computers and DACs
I found that aggressive toe-in so the speakers cross a couple feet in front of me helps. On really good recordings no EQ, on not so good i drop the 2-4K a few db and it helps. Note: it never really changes the sound of the freq. just lowers the volume at the freq. but definitely helps.
I can share that my speakers can be fatiguing, or a total bliss, depending among another things on setup. After a careful positioning and a hard to find trade off between clarity and smoothness magic did happen. Anyone who moves my speakers an inch will be disintegrated.
It’s one of the reasons I still prefer vintage systems. Im sure it’s why many audiophiles dont like digital music anymore. A friend of mine enjoyed cds until he bought new Klipsh (Krapsh) loudspeakers then hated digital after because they are so bright and detailed.
Also depends on the music, recording etc... No system is good over time if the music played is exhausting over time. But yeah.. There is something to this..
I believe there's a psychoacoustic phenomena that shows how some prefer odd or even harmonics, and find the other harsh (I guess too much of the 'good' could also cause fatigue). Frequency respons is another, too yanked up in the midrange and highs and I'm not a buyer. Uneven respons (specific short frequency segments) will create several of the things people use to describe the characteristics, depending on if it's a dip or a peak and at what frequency and I guess that as well could play some role in it. (there's a great picture out there showing all these on top or bellow a flat, but I can't remember where I found it). As someone has mentioned volume, I have noticed that things that's coherent with clarity like good recordings, speakers and room affect how loud I'm willing to listen. But I believe that's more of a cherry on top, than a rotten at the bottom.
I’ve experienced both bright and warm speakers. While yes warm speakers can make me listen to music a lot longer but im bored. I tend to make it my background music and do something else. Bright and detailed i can only listen for 2-3 hours max but im focusing on the music. So yeah for me i like mine brighter, i enjoy the subtle and detail of music.
A lack of consideration of fatigue when it comes to buying equipment in my opinion is the biggest cause of buyers remorse. I agree that an improper volume is equal a problem as fatiguing equipment.
I would say up to three things cause this: * tweeter sibilance (such as s sounds that are hissy on vocals), * midrange that is harsh on key vocals or instruments, and/or * boomy or overly resonant bass.
In my experience it's a compromise to get a system just right, especially when at a small budget. For me a refurbished Denon PMA-1060 amplifier with a pair of Wharfedale Lintons does the trick at 15% of the price of just one Aspen FR20. Of course the FR20 will be a lot better, but to buy a pair of speakers like that they should at least equal the lack of listening fatigue my current humble system has and then do everything else better. I hope I can listen to them one day without having to cross the ocean to get to Colorado 😊
Could be due to ultrasonic oscillations in your preamplifier/amplifier circuits, that are just under the more dangerous parasitic variety. Would be design dependent - just a theory tho.
Distortion is what causes fatigue, the hundreds of times the sound waves bounce around creates a lot of distortion, both inside and outside the speaker
Listening Fatigue, is where the Tweeter, and or Midrange, is way too "HOT" (Too much energy). Some speakers are not balanced well, and or project the highs in a way that sounds louder and harsher, than others. This might be related to the crossover... but its almost always certainly to do with the actual drivers themselves. You can sometimes use an Equalizer, to reduce the high frequencies a bit... to reduce the fatiguing quality of them.. to a certain degree. But... even then, you will still often get intermittent Hot-Spots... OR... you will get a lack of detail, if you dial things down to the point where there are no hot-spot issues at all. Midrange is the most Ear Piercing and Harsh sounding frequency range... which is why they use it on Police and Ambulance Sirens. It takes very little energy, for midrange frequencies to become quite painful to the ears. However, in many systems, the midrange isnt the issue. Its usually a harsh sounding tweeter. I believe Horn based tweeters are more likely to be the Harshest... because the horn shape naturally amplifies, and concentrates the output. That said, there are many non-horn based tweeters, that are very Harsh. Also, I believe some tweeter harshness, might also be caused by being over-driven... to the point of creating distortions. But Ive never attempted to verify this... nor do I have the ability / equipment to do so. There are many drivers that can produce exceptional details... without being harsh to the ears... no matter how loud you push them. And there are many drivers that sound harsh... even at the lowest volume levels. As far as music volume goes... mere loudness has never caused fatigue to my ears. Its only when that loudness, was created by harsh sounding speakers / drivers. Of course, if the volume is up to a level where you have to cover your ears with your hands... or suffer actual Ear Pain... then things are simply way too loud. Loud bass, (within reason) never seems to be the main issue. Ive been to concerts, where the bass hitting your chest, feels like getting kicked in the chest... but it never hurt my ears. Since many concerts and clubs use PA speakers... and PA speakers tend to be very harsh... they often tended to be the most fatiguing, at higher volume levels.
Detail. For some reason when reviewers say a system/ speaker has detail they also tend to mention fatigue. And I posted this before you said "detail". So yes we agree. Perhaps the "W's"?
Grew up in the sub-contractor world doing builders work where a radio/audio was going all the time. Job sites used to be so far away you also built a nice system for your truck. Now for the most part without audio around it almost feels a little empty so I have no clue what this audio fatigue is.
Had a pair of Focal Electra's which were clean & tiring. Audio engineer friend said remove the crossovers and use digital filtering for each driver miked for the room. That is what he did for Harmon. I replaced with JBL 4425 studio monitors...WOW. Speaker placement for and system is critical. The JBL's just disappear leaving a holistic sound stage.
It really is subjective to the end user/listener. It is a variable of conditions meaning the system the room, the volume, etc., in combination and the music listens to as well. There is no one answer.
Certain brands are known for detail, but are etched & hence fatiguing, including a brand of amplifier from my country which has the lowest measured THD ever (4 zeros before the 1) but I find they lack soul, & are often fatiguing.
Not talked about enough is the difference between loudness and distortion. You could have something half the loudness but if high distortion that can be more damaging to your hearing. Just because something is loud is not a given it's bad for you. Sure anything over long enough time can have damaging effects on hearing. Often people have little money so they buy something that goes the loudest with the least perceived distortion they can tolerate. That strategy often causes the most hearing damage and loss. The hearing loss is not apparent typically right away. It's just like sunscreen. Not wearing it gives you repercussions with skin years to decades later. Brightness and fatigue is often a tweeter issue and improper set up. Focal and other brands if not perfectly set up can fatigue fast. I personally like my Sonus Faber Aida 2 speakers and my pair of VAC tube 452 IQ musicblocks. They give me enough detail without fatigue and convey a bunch of emotion at the same time.
Brightness is a thing. You can remove a lot of it by sticking some BluTac to the top and/or bottom of each bit of gear until you find where it is coming from.
I dont think its from extended upper bandwidth ability..I think its from 2 different issues..1. Is over boosted or nulled correction..( yes not flat) the other is from clipped signal..usually in the preamp stage ..( tone control) and lastly. Class d amps.. being clipped during peaks.
🤔🧐 YEP, I AGREE. WHAT WE SOMETIMES DON’T REALIZE IS THAT OUR BRAINS ARE HAVING TO ACT AS ‘SIGNAL PROCESSORS’ WHEN THE SOUND ISN’T OPTIMAL. AND JUST AS PAUL STATED, IT PROBABLY WON’T BE VERY APPARENT AT FIRST, BUT AFTER A WHILE OF MAKING THAT EXTRA LISTENING EFFORT, IT EVENTUALLY BECOMES NOTICEABLE. **NOTE: WHENEVER I’M ADJUSTING A NEW SETUP, I PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO MY INITIAL IMPRESSION DURING JUST THE FIRST 5 TO 10 SECONDS OF LISTENING..
Could it also be that some devices are emitting 20khz+ ultrasonic noise that we don't hear consciously but that triggers and stresses our ears in any case? I know that modern tweeters can go up to 20-30Khz. My Focal's beryllium tweeters, for example, are said to go up to 40khz. And we also know that some digital encoding have noise content above 20khz (noise shaping for DSD, sampling noise for PCM, class D amplifiers). Just sayin'...
Hi Paul, I had used a high end Denon PRA S10 and POA S10 system with T+A TAL 130 speakers. Unfortunately the sound produced by this system was making me fatigue after 20 Minutes of listening. 😢 I changed the post amplifier to Denon POA 3200 and the system sounded much faster and more alive and didn’t fatigue anymore. Maybe the POA S10 didn’t match the speakers ? I don’t know. 🤷♂️ What do you think ?
Another dimension of it is our actual mood when listening. I feel listening fatigue much more easily if I didn't get enough sleep and I can feel the very opposite after getting solid sleep and drinking an energy drink (Redbull, Monster etc.). In fact, the experience of a resolving system really can be quite different in terms of enjoying it depending on how the mood is. It's sort of like if you are really tired, you don't necessarily want to watch some action movie in surround sound. The "bandwidth of our senses" varies depending on our mood and if we overload ourselves we get tired. I have some Stax electrostatic headphones and they are super resolving but I found myself enjoying them more with a Redbull. Sounds crazy?
@@Viagra_risk_PERMANENT_insomnia Actually I don’t really like how people risk their lives promoting Red Bull by doing life endangering stunts including wing-suit jumps. Some of these stunts are like Russian Roulette but funded by a private company.
I found that listener fatigue is related to the music being listened too rather than how it sounds or the sound system you are using. Everything revolves around the music and how it affects you.
@@crodoc69 but would you be more or less fatigued if you listened to the same heavy metal on a different sound system? Is it the music or sound that keeps you listening without fatigue?
@@PetraKann I have my old JVC set up from 80-ties when I was a teenager. It is in my basement and I listen music when I have something to do there for few hours. That's consumer grade system, something that nowdays would cost all together cca. 800€. Even it sounds OK, I can't listen it whole day differently from my Marantz/Yamaha combo.
@@crodoc69 Interesting. Are both systems in the same basement? Are you listening to the same music on both systems? Is it cold and uncomfortable in the basement?
get out hahahaahha,i think we all need PS Audio sound and have a more peace full life...music is emotion.. and that sound ...EMOTION.....comes from the brand ps audio...
And then there's the fatigue caused by worrying about life, even with very good equipment. Lately I can't listen to three songs and I have to turn it off because the worry doesn't allow me to enjoy it.
Yes, but no modern amp should have audible intermodulation distortion nowadays. TIM distortion is not the most published spec however. Do you have any particular amp in mind?
@@spacemissing 6 years ago I was listening testing and measuring some amp prototype that indeed sounded fatiguing and it turned out to be TIM distortion. But issue got fixed.
It works the other way around as well. If you are mentally fatigued at a certain day. Any system can be too much and your system doesn't sound good. I thought it was my system but it was me. The way music is experienced is a reflection of oneself.
I agree! When my mental mood is right, a listening session can last between 4-8 hours (or more) as my attention span and emotional involvement with the music seems to never wane!
Sometimes, although my system/music presentation is exactly the same (still mind blowing), after 1-2 hours I'm ready to go and do other things! 🤔 😉😎
@@TT-eo2is perhaps it sounds better late at night because you are relaxed and with dimmed lights your ears work better like with blind people
@@TT-eo2is or you just have a Klipsch speaker on solid state😂
I totally agree, this is 100% my experience. And it does not only apply to music, it applies to a lot of things, too! The mental state you are in defines a lot of your experience...
@@MegaM563 MM...day or night, daylight or dark, doesn't matter the time of day. "In the listening groove" can be any hour (hours) or not!
Three experiences:
1) My 2003 Nissan Sentra's factory stereo is surprisingly good (much better than my 2020 Honda Accord's factory stereo). I can listen to it on long trips, and enjoy every minute of it. It came with a CD tray and radio -- that's it. The CDs stopped ejecting. It sounded like a gear in the motor wore out. So I had to replace the head unit.
I replaced it with a Pioneer unit, at the recommendation of a Crutchfield salesman. Well, I could never finish a song. It wore me out. It was yelling the music at me. After not completing 3 or 4 songs, I had to turn it off, for my sanity. I sent it back to Crutchfield. I did not seek any other recommendations from them. They do carry some excellent home speakers. So they are on the ball. I just did not want to deal with them again for my car stereo.
Fortunately, I found a very good installer that worked out of his home, and kept many different units in stock.
In his driveway, I tried a JVC, and then a Sony. Both of them were boom-y and trebbly, with everything in the neutral position. They tuned it for sizzle boom. Like having too much salt on your fries, those units grinded on my nerves after a few seconds. There was nothing natural about their sound quality.
The last brand that the "store" carried was Kenwood. I never hear anything by Kenwood. To my surprise, it sounded a bit better than my car's stock unit, and I could play all of my music via a USB flash drive. I was back in business, enjoying music on every drive, never getting fatigued. Big thumb's up to Kenwood's Excellon head units. And they were not expensive. I think I paid $150 + labor for the installation.
2) When my local high-end store installed my upgraded speakers, one of the incompetent installers connected my right speaker out of phase.
My upgrade sounded worse than what I had, and I could not figure out why. I could not listen to it for more than a few minutes.
It took a fair amount of complaining to the store's owner, and finally to the manufacturer's owner when I met him, and the store sent over a skilled installer who had a great ear. It took him 20 seconds. He heard the problem after only 10 or 20 seconds. He checked the connection to both speakers. He corrected the wiring problem, and it sounded great. I can now listen all day. No fatigue.
But with that problem, the fatigue factor was 9.5 out of 10.
I believe that fatigue sets in when you keep craving for something to be different with the sound quality. When something is wrong, it grinds on your nerves, and fatigues you.
Whether it be too much bass, music yelling at you, a phase issue, unnatural sound, etc, it is fatiguing -- especially when you listen, critically.
3) I purchased a set of AR (Acoustic Research) Powered Partners speakers in 1993 for my first computer (A Gateway 2000, with a DX/2 66 mHz CPU, 8 MB RAM, and 340 MB hard drive). That was when computers needed a sound card, otherwise all you got were beeps. There are certainly better desktop speakers. But I still use those AR speakers for my current computer, because they sound very good, and do not fatigue me. They throw a good soundstage, and exaggerate nothing.
My 2014 Hyundai Elantra is okay but it's a pain in the butt to swap out the unit. One thing I've noticed is that flutes sound terrible in the system and can be aggravating.
The best car audio I've had was in my Mini Cooper. Great car audio!
A Long time ago I had a 1988 NIssan Stanza and the factory Stereo was incredible. One of the best car stereos I ever heard
Getting a system just right, with detail and separation, while avoiding brightness, is super tricky. Funny enough though, from what I’ve seen a lot of audiophiles inflict fatigue on themselves by virtue of the never ending chase. They had it right once upon a time and borked it by swapping components.
Paul, what I have found is most people fatigue over “brightness” as defined by an overly hot top end or treble. However, in my experience, the harshness that I’ve encountered is in the midrange and vocals. More specifically sibilance and vocals that emphasize “T” and “S” sounds right within the 1 to 3 kHz range. Thank you
Thank you for answering my question Paul! 😃
My personal mood isn’t the same all day, every day. At one time during a particular day, I may be in the mood for concert-level audio, so I choose an album or SuperAudio CD that’s appropriate for that energetic level of sonic tones-I get my fix and then move on. During another part of that same day, however, I may not be sporting so much energy, and want to just unwind and chill, so I’ll choose an album that’s appropriate to satisfy me then, set a lower volume, and I get an appropriate fix and move on. I believe music should be fluid to match our mood.
I find if you can fall asleep after a hard days work, while listening to your favorite albums, and be woke up due to some unexpected dynamic bass transient, and if on your day off your continually pulling out album after album, your onto a good thing.
After auditioning many top brands of spkrs, within my budget, my choice was clear to me. I bought a set of Von Schweikert Audio Endeavor 3 SE’s. In their price range, they reproduced the most natural, realistic sound I’ve heard, & at times have me held in disbelief of what I’m hearing. Listening fatigue is nonexistent🔊🥰.
As a musician, listener and audio engineer have found that when there is lots of sound around the human voice ranges especially, either too loud or its too busy and complicated, 2 things things can happen for me if things dont get balanced or even removed. My ears can shut down quickly as my ears will get tired, or my brain will get overwhelmed and get exhausted, but some combination of the 2 really. though I generally am appreciating more quiet now, Its an oxymoron that as our hearing degenerates, it seems to feel like it gets louder.
labels were never giving away quality sound since compact cassette tapes era
NOS LPs is the only way to get it (almost)
@@sarabarabu-mq1ci I have a couple of direct to disc recordings on LP's, they do stand out!!
I worked in a very noisy environment in a sound proofed cabin. If I had to go out of the cabin I had to wear hearing defenders. My ears weren't affected just my hearing had to be protected.
@@sarabarabu-mq1ciok thanks
A wonderful way to avoid or reduce listening fatigue is to use DSD instead of PCM. PCM sounds more exciting, more spectacular (in some cases quite desirable), but has something aggressive, sterile and clinical about it. DSD is somewhat denser, warmer, more natural and less detailed at first. However, the details are all there, just less in the foreground. However, DSD is in a different league when it comes to spatial information such as reverberation, echo and quiet background noises; you have much more of a feeling of being there, everything seems so relaxed and natural without hiding anything. Perhaps the reason for listening fatigue is also that our brain tries to compensate for a certain unnaturalness or aggressiveness, which of course requires a lot of computing work on the part of our brain.
I find DSD to be less fatiguing too as an anecdote. It has a reel to reel tape like sound but digital in my experience
In the mid 70s when making commercials for the UK's Independent Broadcasting Authority (commercial) radio stations we used NAB cartridges that once recorded had to be checked for phase alignment by ear so as to be compatible with mono radio receivers as well as checking volume levels, stop / start points etc. Sometimes this would involve the same commercial being put on to several dozen cartridges. As you state it is regarding the higher frequencies and in this listening case was not volume dependent. After an unspecified amount of time which varied depending on content as a commercial with no music soundtrack typically did not contain as many high frequencies, it was impossible to even tell stereo from mono and one would have to take a break of at least 20 minutes before continuing.
I struggled for years with a system without details, not bright, thinking that listening with a flat curve is the solution for clean sound, but investing more money in the equipment, I realized that flat listening is not good, the curve is adjusted after your ears Making the difference between the masterings, now I think that the quality of the mastering matters the most during the listening time! That is, a bright sound with a good mastering quality is the solution for me!
So you mess around with EQ from song to song?
@@finnharreidsson5862read the comment again, slowly.
@@finnharreidsson5862 He talks like an "audiophile" so I am pretty sure he does...lol
Sensory overload.
I've wanted to move away from a system in the past that lacked a little excitement (pipe n' slippers) to one that verged on bright (in yer face) with poorer recordings. The more revealing nature of what I moved to ended up causing a small irritating degree of fatigue which once heard can't be unheard and took a while to reveal itself, maybe due to aging and a very mild onset of tinnitus. I've finally ended up with a system that pairs speakers that some might call bright (B&W 803D3's) with an amp some might call warm (McIntosh MA9000). The pairing complement each other perfectly. Good recordings sound great without adjustment and poor recordings are OK but can be made better through the Mac's equaliser. This might not be the most purist approached, but it's certainly the most satisfying. Ultimately, in my experience it's a case of choosing components carefully, auditioning always (past a certain price point where dealers are willing to accommodate), room acoustics, hearing acuity, personal preference and system synergy. Plus putting in the effort to get the best of what you have and an acceptance that recording quality varies, sometimes dramatically. And perhaps accepting that whatever you have will never be perfect which leads to listening more to the music and less to the system which is ultimately why we're here.
Interesting. I wonder not a lot of people mention room acoustics. Maybe that's good already in most people's cases, sadly in mine it's the opposite.
For me, a great deal of brightness/fatiguing came from the room. In the process of solving that now and it's like a big lever to pull.
@@Kah0ona I'd suggest absorption, either through DIY experimenting or a company like GIK for acoustic panels. Good luck, but bear in mind too much absorption can make a room sound dull.
It's amazing what you said about finding that sweet spot of resolution of detail vs a pleasurable listening experience that's not "dull." That's the thing we chase isn't it, that Goldilocks zone. Once you find the one that works for your ears and brain, yes, the volume stays down lower, and everything is there in abundance. It becomes about the performance and the performers, and not the equipment. This is a Eureka moment, and it takes a lot of time and effort to achieve it without having to compromise too much. I mean, sure there is no perfect system, but once you 98% of the way there and you can sit down in your comfy chair and experience a great piece of music, you've done it.
Room acoustics are also very important.
Even without music.
If you’re living room is full of people, and the acoustics is not good, that can also fatigue.
And the volume is imported to.
Boy, isn’t that the truth. The minimalist archietecture of some houses, and a lot of public places is killing me. As I get older I appreciate more and more the rather cluttered accoustics of older structures - often with wood floors and walls.
Absolutely. Wooden houses have some absorption quality but apartments have concrete walls. A medium living room 3x5 meters with low ceilings, less than 2.3m can be very vibrant. This over liveliness can be very fatiguing. Especially the low ceiling.
From my experience, listening fatigue is as a result of boosted high frequency, especially inaudible ones. When I first built my DIY integrated amp, I used a small box that could only fit a toroidal transformer standing on its side. As a result, I had a high pitch 17khz hiss which I could not hear but caused uneasiness when listening to music. I only noticed it after running a spectrum analyzer on my phone. I broke apart the system into separates and solved the issue but introduced new minor ones that are much more tolerable.
I've had many systems over the years. The ones I could listen to for hours were ones with the bass and treble complementing and giving impact to a revealing and detailed midrange.
Hi from Denmark. To avoid listening fatigue, though my set-up rarely is the factor, turning down the volume, for low level listening, is the key. Then ur amps will "only" put out, the few firsts watt (Class A), which is quite a thrill to exsperience. Cheers from Denmark.
I remember listening to a preamp and monoblocks at a retailer, which I decided to purchase. There was an immediacy about them but over time, I found them fatiguing as they sounded harsh. I think it’s important to spend several days evaluating a component but I understand that many people do not have the luxury of being able to loan equipment, which I am fortunate enough to be able to do. I also suspect that even with a balanced sounding system, there will still be some recordings that are fatiguing, although they should be in the minority.
Cerwin Vega - Instant listening fatigue
Thanks for your great series, Paul. I always found that listeners fatigue happens when the illusion of the soundstage isn't correct and the brain tries to compensate for that. Also, my current system is a bit too bright for my taste but not fatiguing at all.
I couldn't agree more. Most highly resolving systems I've had over the years have worn me out. As I got more experienced, I have chosen systems that I would say have truth in tone....the instruments sound real and the voices sound human.
fatigue because of the system is maybe a thing... but I think maybe the bigger factor leading to fatigue is the music. I have an "entry" level audio system, nothing to brag about... but I find that what fatigues me is recordings that are very compressed, and very loud (as in loudness, not volume). I am very likely with such recordings to think to myself: "I just can't stand this noise, and I can hear the distortion which is just in the recording... yuck!!! ".
I've noticed that some people who say they prefer instrumentals to vocals have unclear midranges in their hifi systems. They really strain your ears.
Something I stumbled onto to help assuming you have your speakers reasonably placed is this. Place a high value 1 watt resistor across your speaker terminals. This will not overload your amp as the change of nominal speaker impedance is subtle. Please use a reference quality recording when doing this.
From experience use values of 330 Ohms and greater. You will need to find the optimal value for your system and the left and right speakers may need different values. If you go below optimal you will lose dynamics.
Easy and cheap fine tuning should you need it.
Higher order harmonic distortion is said to be more objectionable to listen to.Amplifier clipping,an elevated top end as Paul says and any obvious unwanted resonances can all play their part. Poor recordings too.
Not all higher order harmonics, but specifically odd order (x3, x5) higher harmonics. Even order (x2, x4,...) harmonics produce smoothness a rounding. Some amp designers are known for using this. Odd order harmonics are harsh and not musical.
@@glenncurry3041 Yep,that's pretty much what I read too. I wasn't quite specific enough, but it'll certainly make things more "fatiguing ".
If you recall the 1970's audio ads from EPI, they suggested their speakers didn't evoke listener fatigue. There is more to it than volume or strident HF response. It also involved balance of frequency response as close to -3dB's for a loudspeakers response curve. But lets face it... some folks gots no taste in speaker performance. There are other variables involved fer sure.
yes yes yes.....paul is right, its the bright super detail, that is exhausting !!!!!!
I agree Paul. But, I also think it is much more likely to experience listenier fatigue when your listening to CD's, then LP's. Some CD's sound artificial and overly bright, and like you said when you listen to music to loud. I could never understand why when you go to a music concert the volume has to be as loud as it is? It does'nt. I remember one concert I attended and I won't name the artist, but the volume was so loud that I could hear the Band outside the indoor venue when I was leaving, and it was so loud that you could not make out some of the words to the songs when the singer was singing. That is just ridiculous. It does not need to be so loud. And it is very bad for our hearing. I intend to have almost perfect hearing when I am 90 so I always wear ear plugs because concerts are just way to loud. But, I agree with you Paul
Yes. I agree. Also systems without enough bass are fatiguing if you want bass. You end up turning up the volume and the mods and highs are fatiguing and often ear damaging. Many audiophile system I have found are in the category. I hear that is not what PS audio is about. One day I need to hang out in y our listening room till I am kicked out.
I ear a lot of different sistems, mixing a lot of brands and sets from the 60 to actual, and the best ones are the ones that I fall asleep, despite the volume of the sound.
Others after 5 minutes is a total ear fadigue.
I found quality of crossover components to be very important. When I upgraded the crossovers of my Tannoy dual concentrics (used all mundorf components) it made a huge difference. More detail, better soundstage but much easier and less fatiguing to listen to.
Paul's response was oversimplified (but he knows it). A flat frequency response from the mids through the highs is theoretically ideal, but if there is subtle distortion (or not so subtle distortion) it will be irritating to a greater or lesser degree depending on your sensitivity to said distortion. And distortion in this range can make the music sound etched -- or bright.
Example: I built speakers with top quality tweeters that were flat, clean, wide dispersion, and extended to 30,000 cycles or more, but to listen to them I had to roll off the treble. Then I brought the rest of the system up in quality, which reduced distortions. Then the speakers sounded great, with the treble flat.
See his video "Distortion affecting frequency balance".
In my own amplifier design research it became obvious decades ago that odd harmonic distortion was far more fatiguing than even harmonic distortion, even when the even harmonic distortion was at or above 1-2%. My goals were to reduce the odd harmonic as much as possible and to keep even distortions at or less than 1%; far easier said than done.
My experience is that you get fatigued when your brain has to fill in for too many deficits. We have great ability to compensate for frequency response errors, that "only" costs energy. Phase errors can also fatigue, but that is a much different deal as our brain uses phase to tell us where danger is coming from (fight or flight). We have no ability to compensate!
When I first set up my listening/theater toom the sound was very muted, it sounded like it was being choked out. This not only caused me fatigue but it stressed me out. It hurt to listen! I have fixed it and I can now listed with a smile.
From my POV much of the fatigue is due to the source material as well as the character of the overall system and components. I have a pair of ML Electrostatic speakers with dual external sealed subs and I listen primarily to digital through Roon, Qubuz and uncompressed files on my Small Green Computer server going through a PS audio Gain cell DAC, in a nicely treated dedicated music room. The ML’s are extremely revealing of the pros/cons of the recording. I also have a decent turntable and dedicated phono preamp. The digital sources sound great but over time some but not all tracks definitely induce fatigue. When I take the effort to clean and prep an album for playback it always sounds far more soothing and also less dynamic in some respects with far less if any fatigue. Don’t misunderstand I love digital for its utter variety and ease of use and if I had to choose one format to live with it would be digital. But the sweetness and smooth texture of analog from a well recorded album is vey intoxicating and supremely enjoyable too.
Working in the automotive industry developing sound systems for particular vehicles, we would have design goals to outfit a particular model vehicle with at least two different amplifier / speaker compliments for different trim level (different price points). The goal was to have about the same frequency response at the ears, even though one system has four full range speakers and the other trim level has at least nine speakers, driven by either five or nine amplifier channels.
One of my tasks was to critique the sound systems. Often the two vehicles would initially sound similar, (with the entry level sounding surprisingly good given its budget) but after a short time I would have to turn the entry level vehicle’s volume lower and lower due to listener fatigue, where I could listen to the higher trim level sound system for hours without the need to turn it down.
Though they tonally sound similar, I attributed the differences to distortion. Driving and equalizing four full range drivers to match the tonality of the premium system causes all sorts of distortion; cone breakup, driver compression and Doppler distortion. The premium systems have 2- or 3-way electronic crossovers to allow each speaker to work within its ideal frequency range and therefore produce much lower distortion.
Great video on a relatively untouched topic. I find that fatigue comes in from being too close to the speakers as well as the points mentioned in the video.
I remember getting in a friends car once, and he must have had the treble turned all the way up, and it just sounded awful. To make things worse he had the volume cranked up, and it was screeching, and it made me want to tear my ears off. Somehow he must have thought more treble means more clarity, nope nope nope!
An echo-y room with hard surfaces/walls without any first reflection absorption can be very fatiguing, even if the speaker themselves are perfectly flat. I struggled with that one until I applied room treatment. I also tend to set the brightness around the loudest I like to listen to the speakers, without loudness control that means that the highs and lows steadily drop off the lower the volume. So for background listening this is great, more focused listening isn't fatiguing and at full power it sounds best. Something like that.
What's also tiring is a resonance or a faulty cone that hits the magnet or some other distortion that only some music reveal, it can be aggravating to find out what's causing it. You can't relax into the music because it just doesn't sound right. Especially with DIY speakers, it's an endless rabit (rabid? ;) hole. Luckily at some point I've found the sweet spot in speaker, driver, cross over, room treatment etc. it sounds the way I want it to, and that's all that matters to me.
Inaccurate frequency response leads to subjective lack of loudness which makes people turn the volume up too high and that leads to fatigue. This is far more apparent on headphones than on speakers. Listening to music too loudly also makes your ears compensate for the noise by tightening the ear drum and basically protecting itself from noise, and that makes you hear less detail as well.
I find that finding the right volume for a room makes all the difference. ROOM ACCOUSTICS MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN FATIGUE. Carpets, , Drapes, Wood,VS concrete furniture materials.and the speakers, but most of all the music itself, the recording quality
One of the By Products of Loud Concert Levels of Music is why so many people get Stoned! It helps offset the Negative Effects that causes Fatigue! 💥
If the system is hard-edged and bright, or the room has little furnishing, or rug/carpets (it can make your system sound 'shouty'). Heavily compressed recordings (pop and rock recordings, for example) including podcasts (which is why I never listen to those things), are also very fatiguing. Roll off the treble, or stick some thicker rugs in the room to compensate. :)
I did short visit to my audiophile friend in other city to hear his new setup, especially new horn speakers.
In order to test it and to compare mine, I used The Who - Quadrophenia.
I noticed bright sound with loads of details and it was WOW! effect at once.
There wasn't much time for me to listen because of lots if things I had to, but I memorized how it sounded.
When I came back home I took same song and played it on my sistem and it was completely different. It lacked details.
Than I started to experiment with bass and treble and with +4db if treble sound become in pair with what I heared at his place.
It was a bit disappointment form because I tend to listen my system in direct mode.
I thought it would be a good idea to leave treble this way.
Boy I was wrong!
With treble like this it sounded great for first 10-15min, but later I had huge fatigue.
Then I did 2+2 math and concluded to turn treble back to zero.
To make long story short, after I did that I could listen my system whole day even heavy metal without any fatigue at all.
Just my two cents!
In my opinion, listener fatigue when listening to audiophile systems can be attributed to several factors. One primary cause is improper frequency balance, where certain frequencies are overly emphasized or attenuated, leading to a harsh or unbalanced sound that tires the ears. Poorly recorded or mastered audio can also contribute, as any distortions, clipping, or compression artifacts become more pronounced in high-fidelity systems.
Another significant factor is the acoustics of the listening environment. Rooms with poor acoustic treatment can cause reflections, standing waves, and echo, which muddle the sound and force the listener to strain to hear details. Listener fatigue can also arise from overly loud volumes, as prolonged exposure to high decibel levels can be physically tiring and even damaging to hearing. Finally, personal sensitivity and listening habits play a role; extended listening sessions without breaks, especially to complex or dense music, can lead to mental fatigue.
Not just brightness. Digititis is a real thing. Not just details but a harsh sound. The fatigue is your brain working at full processing power to do it's best to interpret the noise as natural sounds.
My wife suffered a stroke. The area of the brain that provides sound discrimination was damaged. As a result she was acutely affected by listening fatigue. To the point of total mental breakdown. Working with her over years of rehab drew to my attention the critical nature of listening fatigue. We all suffer it with background noise and crappy sound systems accosting us day in and day out. It takes a bigger toll than we realize.
Hi Paul, since you are a curious fellow and talk about listening fatigue and your ears getting tired, I thought you might want to know about the stapedius muscle, one of the smallest muscles in your body. It is in your ear. Your intuitive description is likely, at least partially responsible due to this muscle. Curious? Google can be your friend.
Something Paul knows or I hope he knows is most systems that playback is fatiguing is usually bad current entering your electronics especially your sources,and today’s digital sources are more susceptible to it and comes out as bright and fatiguing,such as computers and DACs
I found that aggressive toe-in so the speakers cross a couple feet in front of me helps. On really good recordings no EQ, on not so good i drop the 2-4K a few db and it helps. Note: it never really changes the sound of the freq. just lowers the volume at the freq. but definitely helps.
I can share that my speakers can be fatiguing, or a total bliss, depending among another things on setup. After a careful positioning and a hard to find trade off between clarity and smoothness magic did happen. Anyone who moves my speakers an inch will be disintegrated.
It’s one of the reasons I still prefer vintage systems. Im sure it’s why many audiophiles dont like digital music anymore. A friend of mine enjoyed cds until he bought new Klipsh (Krapsh) loudspeakers then hated digital after because they are so bright and detailed.
Also depends on the music, recording etc... No system is good over time if the music played is exhausting over time.
But yeah.. There is something to this..
nice explanation by Paul Sir
I believe there's a psychoacoustic phenomena that shows how some prefer odd or even harmonics, and find the other harsh (I guess too much of the 'good' could also cause fatigue).
Frequency respons is another, too yanked up in the midrange and highs and I'm not a buyer. Uneven respons (specific short frequency segments) will create several of the things people use to describe the characteristics, depending on if it's a dip or a peak and at what frequency and I guess that as well could play some role in it. (there's a great picture out there showing all these on top or bellow a flat, but I can't remember where I found it).
As someone has mentioned volume, I have noticed that things that's coherent with clarity like good recordings, speakers and room affect how loud I'm willing to listen. But I believe that's more of a cherry on top, than a rotten at the bottom.
I’ve experienced both bright and warm speakers. While yes warm speakers can make me listen to music a lot longer but im bored. I tend to make it my background music and do something else. Bright and detailed i can only listen for 2-3 hours max but im focusing on the music. So yeah for me i like mine brighter, i enjoy the subtle and detail of music.
A lack of consideration of fatigue when it comes to buying equipment in my opinion is the biggest cause of buyers remorse. I agree that an improper volume is equal a problem as fatiguing equipment.
I would say up to three things cause this: * tweeter sibilance (such as s sounds that are hissy on vocals), * midrange that is harsh on key vocals or instruments, and/or * boomy or overly resonant bass.
In my experience it's a compromise to get a system just right, especially when at a small budget. For me a refurbished Denon PMA-1060 amplifier with a pair of Wharfedale Lintons does the trick at 15% of the price of just one Aspen FR20. Of course the FR20 will be a lot better, but to buy a pair of speakers like that they should at least equal the lack of listening fatigue my current humble system has and then do everything else better. I hope I can listen to them one day without having to cross the ocean to get to Colorado 😊
Could be due to ultrasonic oscillations in your preamplifier/amplifier circuits, that are just under the more dangerous parasitic variety. Would be design dependent - just a theory tho.
I found Klipsch hereseys very fatigueing on SS equipment but not so much with tube gear. Horns can be very fatigueing
Maitland is around 2.5 hours drive from me in Sydney, Australia.
Distortion is what causes fatigue, the hundreds of times the sound waves bounce around creates a lot of distortion, both inside and outside the speaker
Listening Fatigue, is where the Tweeter, and or Midrange, is way too "HOT" (Too much energy). Some speakers are not balanced well, and or project the highs in a way that sounds louder and harsher, than others. This might be related to the crossover... but its almost always certainly to do with the actual drivers themselves. You can sometimes use an Equalizer, to reduce the high frequencies a bit... to reduce the fatiguing quality of them.. to a certain degree. But... even then, you will still often get intermittent Hot-Spots... OR... you will get a lack of detail, if you dial things down to the point where there are no hot-spot issues at all.
Midrange is the most Ear Piercing and Harsh sounding frequency range... which is why they use it on Police and Ambulance Sirens. It takes very little energy, for midrange frequencies to become quite painful to the ears. However, in many systems, the midrange isnt the issue. Its usually a harsh sounding tweeter.
I believe Horn based tweeters are more likely to be the Harshest... because the horn shape naturally amplifies, and concentrates the output. That said, there are many non-horn based tweeters, that are very Harsh.
Also, I believe some tweeter harshness, might also be caused by being over-driven... to the point of creating distortions. But Ive never attempted to verify this... nor do I have the ability / equipment to do so.
There are many drivers that can produce exceptional details... without being harsh to the ears... no matter how loud you push them. And there are many drivers that sound harsh... even at the lowest volume levels.
As far as music volume goes... mere loudness has never caused fatigue to my ears. Its only when that loudness, was created by harsh sounding speakers / drivers.
Of course, if the volume is up to a level where you have to cover your ears with your hands... or suffer actual Ear Pain... then things are simply way too loud. Loud bass, (within reason) never seems to be the main issue. Ive been to concerts, where the bass hitting your chest, feels like getting kicked in the chest... but it never hurt my ears. Since many concerts and clubs use PA speakers... and PA speakers tend to be very harsh... they often tended to be the most fatiguing, at higher volume levels.
Detail. For some reason when reviewers say a system/ speaker has detail they also tend to mention fatigue. And I posted this before you said "detail". So yes we agree. Perhaps the "W's"?
Grew up in the sub-contractor world doing builders work where a radio/audio was going all the time. Job sites used to be so far away you also built a nice system for your truck. Now for the most part without audio around it almost feels a little empty so I have no clue what this audio fatigue is.
Heavy Dynamic Range Compression does it for me.
Had a pair of Focal Electra's which were clean & tiring. Audio engineer friend said remove the crossovers and use digital filtering for each driver miked for the room. That is what he did for Harmon. I replaced with JBL 4425 studio monitors...WOW. Speaker placement for and system is critical. The JBL's just disappear leaving a holistic sound stage.
Power amp is Crown XLi-1500 with polypropylene coupling caps. Sound is fantastic.
Tubes, in-line filtering, pure silver cabling and a high quality Schumann Resonance Generator offers me hours of comfortable loud listening.
It really is subjective to the end user/listener. It is a variable of conditions meaning the system the room, the volume, etc., in combination and the music listens to as well. There is no one answer.
A third parameter is related to lower distorsion = less stress, anxiety and listening fatigue.
Similar for/to sight, if it is high on contrast.
Certain brands are known for detail, but are etched & hence fatiguing, including a brand of amplifier from my country which has the lowest measured THD ever (4 zeros before the 1) but I find they lack soul, & are often fatiguing.
Not talked about enough is the difference between loudness and distortion. You could have something half the loudness but if high distortion that can be more damaging to your hearing. Just because something is loud is not a given it's bad for you. Sure anything over long enough time can have damaging effects on hearing. Often people have little money so they buy something that goes the loudest with the least perceived distortion they can tolerate. That strategy often causes the most hearing damage and loss. The hearing loss is not apparent typically right away. It's just like sunscreen. Not wearing it gives you repercussions with skin years to decades later. Brightness and fatigue is often a tweeter issue and improper set up. Focal and other brands if not perfectly set up can fatigue fast. I personally like my Sonus Faber Aida 2 speakers and my pair of VAC tube 452 IQ musicblocks. They give me enough detail without fatigue and convey a bunch of emotion at the same time.
Brightness is a thing. You can remove a lot of it by sticking some BluTac to the top and/or bottom of each bit of gear until you find where it is coming from.
I dont think its from extended upper bandwidth ability..I think its from 2 different issues..1. Is over boosted or nulled correction..( yes not flat) the other is from clipped signal..usually in the preamp stage ..( tone control) and lastly. Class d amps.. being clipped during peaks.
The problem is flac , streaming, sabre dacs, I use now wav and a Philips dac and bye tinnitus
🤔🧐 YEP, I AGREE. WHAT WE SOMETIMES DON’T REALIZE IS THAT OUR BRAINS ARE HAVING TO ACT AS ‘SIGNAL PROCESSORS’ WHEN THE SOUND ISN’T OPTIMAL.
AND JUST AS PAUL STATED, IT PROBABLY WON’T BE VERY APPARENT AT FIRST, BUT AFTER A WHILE OF MAKING THAT EXTRA LISTENING EFFORT, IT EVENTUALLY BECOMES NOTICEABLE.
**NOTE: WHENEVER I’M ADJUSTING A NEW SETUP, I PAY VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO MY INITIAL IMPRESSION DURING JUST THE FIRST 5 TO 10 SECONDS OF LISTENING..
All CAPS = reading fatigue
And there's 3rd and 4th order harmonic distortion in his T's also. My finger was in my ear.
Having trouble setting up my new DAC and closed headphones system
Could it also be that some devices are emitting 20khz+ ultrasonic noise that we don't hear consciously but that triggers and stresses our ears in any case? I know that modern tweeters can go up to 20-30Khz. My Focal's beryllium tweeters, for example, are said to go up to 40khz. And we also know that some digital encoding have noise content above 20khz (noise shaping for DSD, sampling noise for PCM, class D amplifiers). Just sayin'...
so a nice modern speaker vs nice vintage speaker... would the vintage ones give you less fatigue?
Is this hidden brightness in any way mesurable? E.g. could it have a perticular spectral diagram?
Hi Paul, I had used a high end Denon PRA S10 and POA S10 system with T+A TAL 130 speakers. Unfortunately the sound produced by this system was making me fatigue after 20 Minutes of listening. 😢 I changed the post amplifier to Denon POA 3200 and the system sounded much faster and more alive and didn’t fatigue anymore. Maybe the POA S10 didn’t match the speakers ? I don’t know. 🤷♂️ What do you think ?
Totally agree on the harshness of the high frequency. I can't really stand bright really speakers.
Another dimension of it is our actual mood when listening. I feel listening fatigue much more easily if I didn't get enough sleep and I can feel the very opposite after getting solid sleep and drinking an energy drink (Redbull, Monster etc.). In fact, the experience of a resolving system really can be quite different in terms of enjoying it depending on how the mood is. It's sort of like if you are really tired, you don't necessarily want to watch some action movie in surround sound. The "bandwidth of our senses" varies depending on our mood and if we overload ourselves we get tired. I have some Stax electrostatic headphones and they are super resolving but I found myself enjoying them more with a Redbull. Sounds crazy?
Redbull gives you wings.
@@Viagra_risk_PERMANENT_insomnia Actually I don’t really like how people risk their lives promoting Red Bull by doing life endangering stunts including wing-suit jumps. Some of these stunts are like Russian Roulette but funded by a private company.
"Set and setting", just as Mr. Leary said. ~_^
I find distortion to be fatiguing...
Personally, I find around 3000hz range to be excessively harsh, so I EQ it down.
I found that listener fatigue is related to the music being listened too rather than how it sounds or the sound system you are using.
Everything revolves around the music and how it affects you.
On my setup I can listen heavy metal for hours without fatigue. Saying that I disagree with xour claim.
@@crodoc69 but would you be more or less fatigued if you listened to the same heavy metal on a different sound system?
Is it the music or sound that keeps you listening without fatigue?
@@PetraKann I have my old JVC set up from 80-ties when I was a teenager. It is in my basement and I listen music when I have something to do there for few hours. That's consumer grade system, something that nowdays would cost all together cca. 800€.
Even it sounds OK, I can't listen it whole day differently from my Marantz/Yamaha combo.
@@crodoc69 Interesting. Are both systems in the same basement? Are you listening to the same music on both systems?
Is it cold and uncomfortable in the basement?
@@PetraKann Basement isn't cold and I'm not stupid. Keep trolling somewhere else.
White noise and over excrusion will get me out the room fast.
I find that if my sinuses are bothering me, I can barely listen for more than a few minutes (if at all).
I can just look at your system for hours. Don't even have to turn it on. NO FATIGUE!!!!
get out hahahaahha,i think we all need PS Audio sound and have a more peace full life...music is emotion.. and that sound ...EMOTION.....comes from the brand ps audio...
When you're listening to the equipment trying to pick out the details, thats when it becomes fatiguing.
Sounds like the story of Goldilocks and the three Bears. I think this is a valid comment. Just think about the story.
Clarisys Auditorium Plus ➕️ 😊
And then there's the fatigue caused by worrying about life, even with very good equipment. Lately I can't listen to three songs and I have to turn it off because the worry doesn't allow me to enjoy it.
This is the number 1 reason why so many people have turned back to LPs.
Distortion and harsh treble. ☠️
A one note thumpy bass can become tiresome to me.
I suspect intermodulation distortion to be a major cause of listener fatigue.
Yes, but no modern amp should have audible intermodulation distortion nowadays. TIM distortion is not the most published spec however. Do you have any particular amp in mind?
@@ThinkingBetter Nothing specific.
@@spacemissing 6 years ago I was listening testing and measuring some amp prototype that indeed sounded fatiguing and it turned out to be TIM distortion. But issue got fixed.