I worked with Mercedes AMG Petronas and Williams F1 on the hybrid KERS batteries. Our battery technology was very unique at the time. It put our Florida company on the international map.
First off, thank you for the video. Great to see the two manufacturers working together. I guess I'm just confused why hybridization is needed in IndyCar. It made sense in F1 as its a constructors championship and the technology developed for F1 trickles down to road cars. Indy is a spec series that only exists for racing, not necessarily technical development. I don't know, I feel like running on renewable fuel is good enough. My biggest concerns are 1. reliability and 2. a rise in cost that creates a bigger barrier to entry. i.e. less cars on the grid.
The #1 thing that is gonna be good about this is that the cars are going to be able to restart themselves and they will be able to use push to pass without burning extra fuel, so frankly to me it doesn't really matter if this stuff makes it into a road car or not, we won't be stuck with these road course finishes where nobody can pass each other because they're in some fuel save map
Hybrid engines are the future, like it or not! Glad to see IndyCar taking a proactive step towards the future rather than stubbornly planting their feet in the ground.
Hybrid is kinda passe. If Indycar had wanted to appear to be cutting edge, they should have done this 10 years ago. Doing hybrid now just highlights how out of touch Indycar really is. Road cars have moved on.
@@DrColoso - What does IMSA have to do with anything? Take a look at their technical regs - despite appearances, they’re every bit as much a spec series as is IndyCar.
My overpriced two cents. As a former Formula 1 fan who has been to IMS for almost every F1 race, MotoGP race and saw Michael Andretti get his first win at Long Beach when big hair was a thing... Kudos to Chevy and Honda for their continued support of IndyCar. First off anything that adds HP is for the better for the series whether it is a super capacitor, lithium, more displacement or boost. Today IndyCar has my allegiance for a litany of reasons. These include diverse types of racing I mean I wasn't initially an oval fan but today I love them. IndyCar is winning fans because it is better racing, anybody can win and the fans aren't treated like plebs that should be happy to be allowed to attend a race. NBC really deserves praise they give you access to everything and for a few bucks a month you can see practices qualifying and the races... Then they still post highlights on RUclips... Huge win for us fans. Hybrid's. No doubt they have their advantages I drive one and they can dominate racing and do where they are allowed. I'm not yet convinced they will do much on ovals and would be happy to be proven wrong. My take and I'm not an engineer (Purdue's own fault why would you have billiards tables so close to the math classes)? I mean geometry counts too right? Anyway if IndyCar wants to be cutting edge the electric motors belong on the front not the bell housing. With an addition 200hp and AWD pulling you out of a corner now our guys lap times could rival F1 for dimes on the dollar.... Rain no problem, gravel pits just drive out, car stalled not an issue go race. Pat Symonds former F1 engineer to my pleasure expressed exactly the same sentiments in Race Engineering magazine. The natural progression of hybrid technology is AWD because the front wheels become loaded under braking and regeneration is exponentially more efficient off of the front wheels. The Nurburgring Lap Record is held by an AWD car for a reason. 4 wheel drift is great to watch. Those front tires are begging for more to do, the rears just want some help, and that is what a Firestone tire told me personally. My take is if you are going to add cost and complexity get the most bang for your buck. Regardless this is still very cool keep up the good work Honda, Chevy and IndyCar.... Best racing in the world.
This sounds like a really cool idea, but at the same time, where up front would they put a motor/generator? The nose cone is a crash structure, and behind that is the driver's feet. You wouldn't want a big lump of copper and iron electric motor (nor whatever kinda battery) in the indycar equivalent of a crumple zone.
@@bennyfactor The motors are the only issue the battery or capacitor could be in the back just like with the serial hybrid they are going to use. That it would work in the current outdated chassis no it would not you are correct. a pair of motors that generate 200hp are NOT that big or heavy and something al light as an IndyCar wouldn't massive motors to get a huge boost in performance. I think Chevy and Honda would also possibly entice other manufacturers with something more future looking as serial hybrid technology has been in racing a good while at this point. Anyway yeah there would be development needed but with something decoupled it could be much more incremental and adaptable to anyone who would join the series.
It's almost May. What is the latest on the hybrid package? Are we going to see it at Indy or at all this year? It seems like it has come to a complete halt.
What a great talk about it all! But let's face it; with the technology we already have today we could have an Indy race that was not only better powered than ICEs but also driverless, yes, driverless! We already have that technology. So what is holding us back‽‽‽
I've asked this question on several channels, but have never got an authoritative answer... How will hybrids work on an oval? Hybrids need braking to recover energy to later put back into the powertrain. There is no braking, and often, not even coasting, on ovals. Will they just turn off the electric functions on ovals?
They won't work on ovals, they'd just be carrying extra weight of the capacitor/battery around for no benefit. Maybe the idea of the unit in the bell housing is so that it can be relatively easily unplugged and swapped out for oval racing, which BTW only account for four of the seventeen races in the series.
This has been answered before by RACER articles. We will see if it turns out exactly this way, but I've read there's going to be a paddle on the back of the steering wheel that applies a very slight brake pressure. Either hydraulic like the normal brakes or electromagnetic I'm not sure, but either way, a very slight brake pressure. Something to build charge and at the same time conserve fuel/tires, ideal to use in the draft on an oval. This sort of thing exists on some road cars so I've heard. The terms "fiddle brake" and "harvesting paddle" have been thrown around. It has been theorized by Honda/Ilmor recently that it might actually be *most* effective on an oval
Apparently the super capacitors need just a fraction of the recharge time needed by the F1 batteries. Litterally very little time at all, and the slight lifting needed during racing at IMS is all that is needed. We shall see!
I believe the trailing driver will not lift in a slipstream but will hit that regen button to store energy. That is, unless, he wants to get by, in which case he allows the throttle power to go 100% to the transmission.
I personally don't care about the hybrid system. I know they want it, to turn the sound of cars, like F1 V8s, into electric shavers BUT couldn't they have installed the 2.4L V6 for this season, AT LEAST?!? With luck, the 2.4 would add some more power for 2023 and WITH SOME PRAYERS, a new chassis along with the 2.4L hybrid system for 2024.
@@nelson8708yahoo with as many street courses that indycar runs, large grid size just makes a longer train...? I get the $ thing, but it's gotta happen sooner or later, this chasis is getting ancient.
@@chrispraz877 I'm sure it will change in time. I just remember the drop in car count when they switched to this chassis in 2012. Same thing happened in IndyLights in 2015
Electrification is a gimmick, and it's unsustainable in many different areas (approx only 12 years left before all Lithium runs out, more environmentally damaging than a petrol engine, and limiting on milage). Also Honda is actually experimenting with Hydrogen powered ICEs, honestly the future is better/cleaner fuels than electric. Would be cool if they gone towards future tech than be behind the curveball on what will end up abandon tech.
Hydrogen has its problems as well. First, it is a small molecule, so it is difficult to store without leakage. It is also very reactive and tends to quickly compromise seals and other parts in the storage system. In addition, it is far easier to make hydrogen from petroleum than from any other source, so it is not very environmentally friendly either.
EVs are here to stay. Hydrogen is a dead end. Renewable fuels like ethanol and biodiesel will remain viable for awhile. Petroleum isn’t going away, but it’s share of the pie will continue to shrink.
"Electrification is a gimmick" - No it is not. "...and it's unsustainable in many different areas" Yes, it can be unsustainable in some markets for certain things. If you live in a very rural area with limited infrastructure, it's probably not the right time to be adopting. But in many suburban and urban areas, it is a real viable and enviromentally signifcant improvement. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. "approx only 12 years left before all Lithium runs out" - No, there is more than 12 years worth of Lithium just in California. If you want to talk about mineral shortages related to electrification, you should steer the conversation to Cobalt, Nickel, Graphite, and Copper. Those will be the larger limiting factors moving forward. "more environmentally damaging than a petrol engine" - Not if the vehcile is kept for more than 2 years. After approximately 2 years (varies depending on exact vehicle) the electric vehicle surpasses a combustion engine vehicle in total emissions output (and that is includes material sourcing and construction). It's important to note, if you have a petrol powered vehicle, don't just replace it. Drive it until it needs to be replaced. And depeding where you live, a combustion powered vehicle may still be the best option. The future isn't black or white, it's grey. "Also Honda is actually experimenting with Hydrogen powered ICE" - Yes the largest oil companies in the world are paying a LOT of money trying to keep hyrdrogen powered vehicles a thing. They want to sell you "gas" or "hydrogen". They don't like the idea of you collecting sunshine on your solar panels and powering your car with it. It's all about maintaing a product that they can control the market on to sell to you. They see hydrogen as a way to dupe the populace into thinking it's a "green" technology that is enviromentally friendly, while still being able to collect their monthly "rent" (fuel) checks. The future doesn't need to be all electric, far from it. But there are many benefits to elecctrification of many sectors of our current world. I love combustion engines and racing, but there is a compromise solution that can be had. The government forcing things looks and is bad, but the flip side of that is there is clear manipulation of the science and narrative by large energy/oil/chemical companies. They will do anything to maintain contorl of these markets. And they've been found to be knowingly lying about these topics for generations. There is no easy solution, but we must work together to find a solution. It is a real problem.
How cute! A gimmick in search of a technical reason! If it won't improve the racing (and it can't), why do it? Why not just let the ethanol engines identify as hybrids? It's purely about making political appearances.
I worked with Mercedes AMG Petronas and Williams F1 on the hybrid KERS batteries. Our battery technology was very unique at the time. It put our Florida company on the international map.
So was it your work on the KERS batteries that got you fired ?
I love this. All competitors coming together for the good of the series to beat the crap out of each other. Mutual respect at its best.
I love the fact that you use cart sound at the beginning
First off, thank you for the video. Great to see the two manufacturers working together. I guess I'm just confused why hybridization is needed in IndyCar. It made sense in F1 as its a constructors championship and the technology developed for F1 trickles down to road cars. Indy is a spec series that only exists for racing, not necessarily technical development. I don't know, I feel like running on renewable fuel is good enough. My biggest concerns are 1. reliability and 2. a rise in cost that creates a bigger barrier to entry. i.e. less cars on the grid.
The #1 thing that is gonna be good about this is that the cars are going to be able to restart themselves and they will be able to use push to pass without burning extra fuel, so frankly to me it doesn't really matter if this stuff makes it into a road car or not, we won't be stuck with these road course finishes where nobody can pass each other because they're in some fuel save map
Honda and Chevrolet, the series 2 engine suppluers, don't make road cars?
Hybrid engines are the future, like it or not! Glad to see IndyCar taking a proactive step towards the future rather than stubbornly planting their feet in the ground.
No engines are the future. They'll never stop until the sport is gone
Hybrid is kinda passe. If Indycar had wanted to appear to be cutting edge, they should have done this 10 years ago. Doing hybrid now just highlights how out of touch Indycar really is. Road cars have moved on.
@@billmartin1010 IMSA in this case is out of touch too, they could have done before but no, they don't till this year.
@@DrColoso - What does IMSA have to do with anything? Take a look at their technical regs - despite appearances, they’re every bit as much a spec series as is IndyCar.
@@sking2173 oh please, they’re far from spec. Multiple chassis, multiple engine types, etc.
The cars look different unlike IndyCar
Nothing better than Marshall talking tech!
What a roundtable!!! Congrats
Indy 500 Trackside Report..... from Texas Motor Speedway. 😜
Kinda fits with the idea of adding batteries to an Indy car. Both are purely for appearances.
Very cool from both parties, that's what's needed, a big hi tech push forward!!!
Why ?
My overpriced two cents. As a former Formula 1 fan who has been to IMS for almost every F1 race, MotoGP race and saw Michael Andretti get his first win at Long Beach when big hair was a thing... Kudos to Chevy and Honda for their continued support of IndyCar. First off anything that adds HP is for the better for the series whether it is a super capacitor, lithium, more displacement or boost. Today IndyCar has my allegiance for a litany of reasons. These include diverse types of racing I mean I wasn't initially an oval fan but today I love them. IndyCar is winning fans because it is better racing, anybody can win and the fans aren't treated like plebs that should be happy to be allowed to attend a race. NBC really deserves praise they give you access to everything and for a few bucks a month you can see practices qualifying and the races... Then they still post highlights on RUclips... Huge win for us fans.
Hybrid's. No doubt they have their advantages I drive one and they can dominate racing and do where they are allowed. I'm not yet convinced they will do much on ovals and would be happy to be proven wrong. My take and I'm not an engineer (Purdue's own fault why would you have billiards tables so close to the math classes)? I mean geometry counts too right? Anyway if IndyCar wants to be cutting edge the electric motors belong on the front not the bell housing. With an addition 200hp and AWD pulling you out of a corner now our guys lap times could rival F1 for dimes on the dollar.... Rain no problem, gravel pits just drive out, car stalled not an issue go race. Pat Symonds former F1 engineer to my pleasure expressed exactly the same sentiments in Race Engineering magazine. The natural progression of hybrid technology is AWD because the front wheels become loaded under braking and regeneration is exponentially more efficient off of the front wheels. The Nurburgring Lap Record is held by an AWD car for a reason. 4 wheel drift is great to watch. Those front tires are begging for more to do, the rears just want some help, and that is what a Firestone tire told me personally.
My take is if you are going to add cost and complexity get the most bang for your buck. Regardless this is still very cool keep up the good work Honda, Chevy and IndyCar.... Best racing in the world.
This sounds like a really cool idea, but at the same time, where up front would they put a motor/generator? The nose cone is a crash structure, and behind that is the driver's feet. You wouldn't want a big lump of copper and iron electric motor (nor whatever kinda battery) in the indycar equivalent of a crumple zone.
@@bennyfactor The motors are the only issue the battery or capacitor could be in the back just like with the serial hybrid they are going to use. That it would work in the current outdated chassis no it would not you are correct. a pair of motors that generate 200hp are NOT that big or heavy and something al light as an IndyCar wouldn't massive motors to get a huge boost in performance. I think Chevy and Honda would also possibly entice other manufacturers with something more future looking as serial hybrid technology has been in racing a good while at this point. Anyway yeah there would be development needed but with something decoupled it could be much more incremental and adaptable to anyone who would join the series.
It's almost May. What is the latest on the hybrid package? Are we going to see it at Indy or at all this year? It seems like it has come to a complete halt.
Delightful!
What a great talk about it all! But let's face it; with the technology we already have today we could have an Indy race that was not only better powered than ICEs but also driverless, yes, driverless! We already have that technology. So what is holding us back‽‽‽
I've asked this question on several channels, but have never got an authoritative answer... How will hybrids work on an oval? Hybrids need braking to recover energy to later put back into the powertrain. There is no braking, and often, not even coasting, on ovals. Will they just turn off the electric functions on ovals?
They won't work on ovals, they'd just be carrying extra weight of the capacitor/battery around for no benefit. Maybe the idea of the unit in the bell housing is so that it can be relatively easily unplugged and swapped out for oval racing, which BTW only account for four of the seventeen races in the series.
This has been answered before by RACER articles. We will see if it turns out exactly this way, but I've read there's going to be a paddle on the back of the steering wheel that applies a very slight brake pressure. Either hydraulic like the normal brakes or electromagnetic I'm not sure, but either way, a very slight brake pressure. Something to build charge and at the same time conserve fuel/tires, ideal to use in the draft on an oval. This sort of thing exists on some road cars so I've heard. The terms "fiddle brake" and "harvesting paddle" have been thrown around.
It has been theorized by Honda/Ilmor recently that it might actually be *most* effective on an oval
Apparently the super capacitors need just a fraction of the recharge time needed by the F1 batteries. Litterally very little time at all, and the slight lifting needed during racing at IMS is all that is needed. We shall see!
@@I_Evo this is completely false as both honda and Chevy have stated that it may be even more effective on ovals.
I believe the trailing driver will not lift in a slipstream but will hit that regen button to store energy. That is, unless, he wants to get by, in which case he allows the throttle power to go 100% to the transmission.
Why aren't we just going back to Methanol? No need to encourage furthering the squeeze on Lithium and adding to the issues of Lithium mining.
Supercapacitors don't use lithium so that is not a problem
I personally don't care about the hybrid system. I know they want it, to turn the sound of cars, like F1 V8s, into electric shavers BUT couldn't they have installed the 2.4L V6 for this season, AT LEAST?!? With luck, the 2.4 would add some more power for 2023 and WITH SOME PRAYERS, a new chassis along with the 2.4L hybrid system for 2024.
Can we get a new chasis as well?
FFS this one has been around too long.
I'll take bigger car counts with an old chassis vs small car count with new chassis. New chassis = $$$ the smaller teams dont have
@@nelson8708yahoo with as many street courses that indycar runs, large grid size just makes a longer train...?
I get the $ thing, but it's gotta happen sooner or later, this chasis is getting ancient.
@@chrispraz877 I'm sure it will change in time. I just remember the drop in car count when they switched to this chassis in 2012. Same thing happened in IndyLights in 2015
Electrification is a gimmick, and it's unsustainable in many different areas (approx only 12 years left before all Lithium runs out, more environmentally damaging than a petrol engine, and limiting on milage). Also Honda is actually experimenting with Hydrogen powered ICEs, honestly the future is better/cleaner fuels than electric.
Would be cool if they gone towards future tech than be behind the curveball on what will end up abandon tech.
Hydrogen has its problems as well. First, it is a small molecule, so it is difficult to store without leakage. It is also very reactive and tends to quickly compromise seals and other parts in the storage system. In addition, it is far easier to make hydrogen from petroleum than from any other source, so it is not very environmentally friendly either.
EVs are here to stay. Hydrogen is a dead end. Renewable fuels like ethanol and biodiesel will remain viable for awhile. Petroleum isn’t going away, but it’s share of the pie will continue to shrink.
"Electrification is a gimmick" - No it is not.
"...and it's unsustainable in many different areas" Yes, it can be unsustainable in some markets for certain things. If you live in a very rural area with limited infrastructure, it's probably not the right time to be adopting. But in many suburban and urban areas, it is a real viable and enviromentally signifcant improvement. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
"approx only 12 years left before all Lithium runs out" - No, there is more than 12 years worth of Lithium just in California. If you want to talk about mineral shortages related to electrification, you should steer the conversation to Cobalt, Nickel, Graphite, and Copper. Those will be the larger limiting factors moving forward.
"more environmentally damaging than a petrol engine" - Not if the vehcile is kept for more than 2 years. After approximately 2 years (varies depending on exact vehicle) the electric vehicle surpasses a combustion engine vehicle in total emissions output (and that is includes material sourcing and construction). It's important to note, if you have a petrol powered vehicle, don't just replace it. Drive it until it needs to be replaced. And depeding where you live, a combustion powered vehicle may still be the best option. The future isn't black or white, it's grey.
"Also Honda is actually experimenting with Hydrogen powered ICE" - Yes the largest oil companies in the world are paying a LOT of money trying to keep hyrdrogen powered vehicles a thing. They want to sell you "gas" or "hydrogen". They don't like the idea of you collecting sunshine on your solar panels and powering your car with it. It's all about maintaing a product that they can control the market on to sell to you. They see hydrogen as a way to dupe the populace into thinking it's a "green" technology that is enviromentally friendly, while still being able to collect their monthly "rent" (fuel) checks.
The future doesn't need to be all electric, far from it. But there are many benefits to elecctrification of many sectors of our current world. I love combustion engines and racing, but there is a compromise solution that can be had. The government forcing things looks and is bad, but the flip side of that is there is clear manipulation of the science and narrative by large energy/oil/chemical companies. They will do anything to maintain contorl of these markets. And they've been found to be knowingly lying about these topics for generations. There is no easy solution, but we must work together to find a solution. It is a real problem.
Supercapacitors use 0 lithium. You must have them confused with Lithium ion batteries.
@@TechHippie-u3s Lets be honest its technology no one asked for in racing to "fix" a problem no one cares about.
How cute! A gimmick in search of a technical reason! If it won't improve the racing (and it can't), why do it? Why not just let the ethanol engines identify as hybrids? It's purely about making political appearances.
HONDA HAD THEIRS READY LAST YEAR - CHEVY COULDN'T HANG & DIDN'T (EMBARRASSING) - - - HONDA CAME IN & SAVED THEM @ THE BEHEST OF INDYCAR ITSELF