What I did was use multiple pieces of tape around a good guess point and did a slow mo recording and looked for the color that didnt wobble. Helps gets 3 or more rolls done per roll.
I have a question. In order to find PAP, you need to throw the ball and get a oil ring first. But to throw the ball, you have to drill it first. However, didn't you need to know where PAP is before you drill a ball??? I am newbie to bowling. Isn't this a chicken and egg problem? Or you need to "waste" your ball to know you PAP? Does PAP differ from ball to ball? (If so, you will need to buy 2 balls to know the PAP???) or style to style (two hand vs one hand)?
New bowlers will most likely, or at least should, have a plastic ball first so the layout doesn't matter. You can use the plastic ball to find your PAP and then drill a ball accordingly
Hi Ron. When measuring the span or half way point between the finger and thumb holes is that measured from the center of the finger holes to the center of the thumb hole? Just want to make sure it's that versus bottom of the finger holes to the top of the thumb hole. Thanks!
Precisely the info I've been looking for. Looking to get some new gear and want to do it right from the beginning. Gonna throw my old Red Hammer (80s tech) to find my PAP.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you just measured the distance from the holes to the PAP to determine where to drill the holes? That sounds like some circular logic
so what happens if your PAP is not in the right place? Meaning if a pro shop drilled a ball w/o knowing or finding this information. How does this affect your reaction, release and performance?
Once you find that inside oil line. YOu can put your hand along that line. Then you twist the ball left and right and look at the point of the ball where it doesnt rotate. Thats your pap. You would start by putting the tape in that position first. If you dont have access to your pro shop guy and you have to do it Manually!! =D
Follow up question: I hope you see this and haven't answered it already, what is the context/reason, why a bowler should work to adjust their release/positive axis point? Presumably as a person's technique develops the axis point will change somehow, is there a "tendency" for this change to go a certain direction? Hope you see this, thanks!!
The 'typical' delivery is what you're looking for to get the PAP you typically will 'use'. IF you change the amount of tilt you put on the ball, with your hand, the axis point will change, because your oil rings now will be more toward the negative axis side of the ball, and smaller in diameter, since it is farther down the ball(assuming you put the PAP at the top, and look for the oil ring closest to the bowler's thumb hole.) IF that is where you now 'usually' throw the ball, then that would be your 'new' PAP, assuming you would always deliver the ball in that manner.
You don't necessarily need to adjust your PAP because that's how you naturally spin the ball. However, the person who drills your ball can use this information and either align the core's axis with your natural rotation axis or make the core "wobble" a bit and make the ball more responsive to friction. This will affect how far the ball skids before it starts to hook. For instance a high-rev player might want the ball to skid a bit more because it would hook too early. But yeah, as you develop and improve your technique your PAP might move a little bit but the change is typically quite small.
The confusing thing is that they are throwing balls that are already drilled.. how do you find your pap on an undrilled ball with no finger grips or holes??
What type of release should you use on the ball or what type of ball should you use?. Cuz if I'm bowling for a strike while measuring my PAP I get different results using different balls on the same lane condition the same day
Ok when you say off the hand you talking about second fingers clear while in the air or the second it touches lane before the dots?? Mine is in 1 spot when leaves hand but another spot once ball touches lane before dots. Just need to know for correct testing
Same with mine. Just lets you know how lazy they are at your pro shop. Made me mad when I realized my pro shop didn't care about finding my actual measurements
Mine does that too, but he also watches me bowl before I drill just to give him an idea of how I'm bowling, but he doesn't do all what this guy showed in the vid
My pro.shop guy dient do all that..he just told me to go roll the ball and bring it back then i guess he just went off the oil lines on the ball and measured my hand
Rolling over the holes is a release issue not a Pin to PAP issue normally. Especially if it's rolling over the holes initially. So trying a wrist brace can help. If it rolling over the holes later then it's a flaring issue and can be solved with layouts that flare less or balls that have less differential.
Hung Pham your positive axis point is the same as long as you release the ball the same each time. Once you know what your positive axis point dimensions are, for example 4 inches over and 1/2 inches up, then every new ball is laid out using that reference point and manufacturers recommendations for desired performance.
So as a new bowler will PAP change as you learn to properly release a ball? I guess what I'm asking is will inconsistent ball release change PAP ever shot or is it a fixed measurement.
Assuming the "release" is the same, as in thumb and finger positions, the PAP will be the same. If you're one of those, extremely rare mind you, bowlers who can change your thumb and finger location/grip on a ball, think fully inserted thumb changed to half thumb and slight tilt on middle finger, then your PAP has a chance to change.
Yea, where to put the pin, when you use one grit over the ball, do u cut Perpendicular with the next grit, or keep going in the same line. Just to get all the specifics. 180-1000 is what im trying to accomplish
@@pokernative76 You put the ball in the spinner cup, with a logo or other locator mark up, and sand up/down on the ball, to the cup. Then flip it completely over, and do the other side. Then turn the ball 90 degress to that axis and sand the new 'TOP' and 'bottom', per USBC rules.
So what is the significance of knowing your pap relatively to your ball layout when you het it drilled ? I'm still learn the science to all this even tho I have balled a 300 game multiple times 🤦🏾
New players should usually start with plastic anyway and make sure they have a good fit without any problems like torn skin or whatever since the layout on plastic is rather neglectable. After that you can get a more realistic reading of the players pap and start from there with reactive.
How do you get the PAP on a brand new ball that has not been drilled. If you have different balls in your bag, say pin up and pin down and weak and strong hook balls the PAP will be different on each one , correct? So, again, how do I know where the PAP spot is on a new ball?
The PAP is from the bowler and not the ball. So if it's collected properly, it is the same for all balls. I have videos on this channel that show how to find it.
@@Ctdbowling O.K. Thank you for that video. I do understand that your explanation was good for that ball which had already been drilled but that still does not tell me how the pro shop knows where the PAP is for me on a ball that has no finger holes to start measuring from. How would he know what direction on the ball to measure from the Pin to the PAP exact spot that does not exist yet. He would just have a measurement like 5 3/8 and not the exact angle.
Will your pap change from your hand position at time of release. Let’s say you release the ball with your hand straight up behind the ball, versus if you have your fingers toward the left side. Does it matter either way?
does it matter if your pro shop didn't drill your ball anywhere near close the first time? It seems that the most important number is your PAp, and that number is taken from the center of your grip, so does it matter if the original drilling is even close to what you should have? If the grip is nowhere near correct, than the number to the PAP would be off, meaning all the other numbers would be off as well., So how would you know if your'e going in the right direction?. Seems to me that you could be buying a dozens balls of the course of time looking for a particular ball reaction, but if the first drilling was off, then you'll never be getting what you really need to get the shape the way you want it to be.
Question....Not new to bowling but new to these layouts.....assuming you are reverse engineering to find the finger hole locations, if you have a new ball (and all balls being different)...how do you get the pap of a ball before you drill it? And can you really translate info from from one ball to the other? Thanks
@@Ctdbowling From this video, I could not determine that the tape did not wobble off Dustin's hand. Isn't the first oil ring more accurate than guessing when the tape does not wobble in 200mS from delivery? Thanks, good work!
Question…I have been a one handed no thumb bowler for a while. I want to make the transition to traditional thumb in bowling. I got with my local pro shop and they found my PAP based on me throwing a couple of balls down lane using my no thumb grip. I inquired as to why they didn’t try and find my PAP based on a thumb in grip, since that is what I want to migrate to. They told made it wouldn’t make a difference. I am confused. If I want a ball based on a specific grip style, shouldn’t they have measured me using that grip style? With my no thumb grip I heavily rotate the ball while I am much flatter down lane with a thumb in grip. The PAP has to be different between the two grip styles doesn’t it? Thanks much!
I'm no expert, but as someone who just got his first asym bowling ball drilled without knowing his PaP, I think the answer is you just need to develop it first before they can accurately gauge it.
But wouldn't your PAP vary based on how the ball is drilled? So 2 different balls with 2 different layouts give 2 different PAP's since the ball is leaving the hand at 2 different positions?
This video just kind of gave me that "aha" moment. I understand what the PAP is now. So, I feel confident in saying that yes, if you change how you release the ball (any ball, for that matter) your PAP will be different.
Ok, being serious here, WHAT THE HECK?!?! No "Pro" shop in the California bay area knows this stuff. EVERY shop I've taken balls to out here just grabs the ball and say's "OK" when I say I need a ball drilled. I always have to stop them and ask "Don't you need more info than finger and grip size?" Where are you? I feel like I should fly out and see you for ball drilling!
Ideally ask a friend to make a video of you releasing the ball. Then throw the ball and observe oily skid marks on its surface. They will appear as concentric rings (more or less). Pick the one which is the closest to your thumb hole and treat it like equator on an imaginary globe. Then mark the imaginary pole on this globe using a small sticker. If you throw the ball again, the sticker should not wobble too much at the moment of release. If it does, make small adjustments to sticker position until the sticker doesn't wobble. The reason you need a friend or a video is that it's impossible for you as a thrower to see the ball rotation immediately after release. After a couple of attempts the sticker will mark your PAP.
My driller can get my PAP by just looking at me throw one shot. Do I need to tell you who my driller is? Ok, I will Scott Pohl! He can look by the oil rings on my ball.
I know Scott Pohl personally. I can tell you there isn't anyone that can get a axis point by looking at a shot thrown without tape. As mentioned in the video oil rings are after the ball hits the lane. We are looking for off of the hand. Thanks for watching.
@@Ctdbowling I can get Mo Pinel to do it, and since Scott is a Mo student I don't think you have a clue. Mo did it with me with in 5 minutes. Axis tilt and rotation.
@@freighttrain1695 lol Mo would have probably used a Armadillo to find the axis point, since he invented it. Here, what is your real name and I'll ask him. Do a little research and you will find that the method shown is the 2nd most accurate way to find the PAP. The first and absolute best method is using Bowler ID. If you do some research on that product you will see why and you might learn some more about the inventor.
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Wow. Easily the best explanation of this I've heard. Always been confused when people mention their pin to PAP. Thank you!
That was honestly the most simplistic and understandable explaination of the pap. THANK YOU!!!!
What I did was use multiple pieces of tape around a good guess point and did a slow mo recording and looked for the color that didnt wobble. Helps gets 3 or more rolls done per roll.
Brilliant!
Smart idea
You are awesome. This video broke down all the parts I just couldn't grasp and now they worked together. +1 subscriber. Cheers man!!
I have a question. In order to find PAP, you need to throw the ball and get a oil ring first. But to throw the ball, you have to drill it first. However, didn't you need to know where PAP is before you drill a ball??? I am newbie to bowling. Isn't this a chicken and egg problem? Or you need to "waste" your ball to know you PAP? Does PAP differ from ball to ball? (If so, you will need to buy 2 balls to know the PAP???) or style to style (two hand vs one hand)?
New bowlers will most likely, or at least should, have a plastic ball first so the layout doesn't matter. You can use the plastic ball to find your PAP and then drill a ball accordingly
I feel like a smarter bowler now, thanks for the easy to follow tutorial!!
Hi Ron. When measuring the span or half way point between the finger and thumb holes is that measured from the center of the finger holes to the center of the thumb hole? Just want to make sure it's that versus bottom of the finger holes to the top of the thumb hole. Thanks!
Precisely the info I've been looking for. Looking to get some new gear and want to do it right from the beginning. Gonna throw my old Red Hammer (80s tech) to find my PAP.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you just measured the distance from the holes to the PAP to determine where to drill the holes? That sounds like some circular logic
so what happens if your PAP is not in the right place? Meaning if a pro shop drilled a ball w/o knowing or finding this information. How does this affect your reaction, release and performance?
I'd also like to know seeing all 3 balls I've ever owned I bought drilled already from someone with same span
Once you find that inside oil line. YOu can put your hand along that line. Then you twist the ball left and right and look at the point of the ball where it doesnt rotate. Thats your pap. You would start by putting the tape in that position first. If you dont have access to your pro shop guy and you have to do it Manually!! =D
Follow up question: I hope you see this and haven't answered it already, what is the context/reason, why a bowler should work to adjust their release/positive axis point? Presumably as a person's technique develops the axis point will change somehow, is there a "tendency" for this change to go a certain direction?
Hope you see this, thanks!!
The 'typical' delivery is what you're looking for to get the PAP you typically will 'use'. IF you change the amount of tilt you put on the ball, with your hand, the axis point will change, because your oil rings now will be more toward the negative axis side of the ball, and smaller in diameter, since it is farther down the ball(assuming you put the PAP at the top, and look for the oil ring closest to the bowler's thumb hole.)
IF that is where you now 'usually' throw the ball, then that would be your 'new' PAP, assuming you would always deliver the ball in that manner.
You don't necessarily need to adjust your PAP because that's how you naturally spin the ball. However, the person who drills your ball can use this information and either align the core's axis with your natural rotation axis or make the core "wobble" a bit and make the ball more responsive to friction. This will affect how far the ball skids before it starts to hook. For instance a high-rev player might want the ball to skid a bit more because it would hook too early. But yeah, as you develop and improve your technique your PAP might move a little bit but the change is typically quite small.
The confusing thing is that they are throwing balls that are already drilled.. how do you find your pap on an undrilled ball with no finger grips or holes??
Wish i would've known this before i had my Black Widow Pink drilled
Find it and have it ready for the next one.
can you get it filled?
What type of release should you use on the ball or what type of ball should you use?.
Cuz if I'm bowling for a strike while measuring my PAP I get different results using different balls on the same lane condition the same day
What kind white tape is used? I assume the tape must adhere strongly as to not come off in the machinery,
Love it, great stuff. Now that sport science.
Great video thank you
Ok when you say off the hand you talking about second fingers clear while in the air or the second it touches lane before the dots?? Mine is in 1 spot when leaves hand but another spot once ball touches lane before dots. Just need to know for correct testing
Keep the videos coming
So my track goes over my thumb hole, would I want my pin in a different spot, when I got pin down it seems to track over it
My pro shop doesn’t ask or check for my PAP, only got my hand measurement and drilled my ball accordingly. Hmmmm....
Now you know why it is important to know this information
Same with mine. Just lets you know how lazy they are at your pro shop. Made me mad when I realized my pro shop didn't care about finding my actual measurements
Mine does that too, but he also watches me bowl before I drill just to give him an idea of how I'm bowling, but he doesn't do all what this guy showed in the vid
My pro.shop guy dient do all that..he just told me to go roll the ball and bring it back then i guess he just went off the oil lines on the ball and measured my hand
The oil on my bowling ball goes across my thumb hole
Very nice.
How do you use the pin to PAP distance to keep the ball from rolling over the finger holes? More distance help?
Rolling over the holes is a release issue not a Pin to PAP issue normally. Especially if it's rolling over the holes initially. So trying a wrist brace can help. If it rolling over the holes later then it's a flaring issue and can be solved with layouts that flare less or balls that have less differential.
Can you do psa
So the ball is plugged and redrilled to match up right
So does your PAP stays consistent with any ball? If not, how do you determine the PAP of an undrilled ball?
Hung Pham your positive axis point is the same as long as you release the ball the same each time. Once you know what your positive axis point dimensions are, for example 4 inches over and 1/2 inches up, then every new ball is laid out using that reference point and manufacturers recommendations for desired performance.
Nice video
So as a new bowler will PAP change as you learn to properly release a ball? I guess what I'm asking is will inconsistent ball release change PAP ever shot or is it a fixed measurement.
Assuming the "release" is the same, as in thumb and finger positions, the PAP will be the same. If you're one of those, extremely rare mind you, bowlers who can change your thumb and finger location/grip on a ball, think fully inserted thumb changed to half thumb and slight tilt on middle finger, then your PAP has a chance to change.
Will you do a video, on bowling ball resurfacing with a ball spinner? I want to learn to do my own maintance.
Yeah we can do that.
Yea, where to put the pin, when you use one grit over the ball, do u cut Perpendicular with the next grit, or keep going in the same line. Just to get all the specifics. 180-1000 is what im trying to accomplish
@@pokernative76 You put the ball in the spinner cup, with a logo or other locator mark up, and sand up/down on the ball, to the cup. Then flip it completely over, and do the other side. Then turn the ball 90 degress to that axis and sand the new 'TOP' and 'bottom', per USBC rules.
How does position of mass bias affect the ball?
We will have a different video to discuss that
Does the pap vary or change in different bowling balls
So what is the significance of knowing your pap relatively to your ball layout when you het it drilled ? I'm still learn the science to all this even tho I have balled a 300 game multiple times 🤦🏾
Are pro shops supposed to know your pap when they drill your ball? Cause I have never had then find it
In order to properly determine a bowling balls performance .Yes they should or else it is just a guess.
What happens if a newbie buys a bowling ball for the first time how will the pro shop determine the pap? Thanks
He should focus on getting a good fitting ball and not worry about the layout.
New players should usually start with plastic anyway and make sure they have a good fit without any problems like torn skin or whatever since the layout on plastic is rather neglectable. After that you can get a more realistic reading of the players pap and start from there with reactive.
How much does this usually cost?
How do you get the PAP on a brand new ball that has not been drilled. If you have different balls in your bag, say pin up and pin down and weak and strong hook balls the PAP will be different on each one , correct? So, again, how do I know where the PAP spot is on a new ball?
The PAP is from the bowler and not the ball. So if it's collected properly, it is the same for all balls. I have videos on this channel that show how to find it.
@@Ctdbowling link please?
@@Ctdbowling O.K. Thank you for that video. I do understand that your explanation was good for that ball which had already been drilled but that still does not tell me how the pro shop knows where the PAP is for me on a ball that has no finger holes to start measuring from. How would he know what direction on the ball to measure from the Pin to the PAP exact spot that does not exist yet. He would just have a measurement like 5 3/8 and not the exact angle.
Will your pap change from your hand position at time of release. Let’s say you release the ball with your hand straight up behind the ball, versus if you have your fingers toward the left side. Does it matter either way?
It can change but it's harder than yoyay think. Normally you are changing your axis rotation and or tilt with hand position.
does it matter if your pro shop didn't drill your ball anywhere near close the first time? It seems that the most important number is your PAp, and that number is taken from the center of your grip, so does it matter if the original drilling is even close to what you should have? If the grip is nowhere near correct, than the number to the PAP would be off, meaning all the other numbers would be off as well., So how would you know if your'e going in the right direction?. Seems to me that you could be buying a dozens balls of the course of time looking for a particular ball reaction, but if the first drilling was off, then you'll never be getting what you really need to get the shape the way you want it to be.
It can matter if you have a bad fit.
Question....Not new to bowling but new to these layouts.....assuming you are reverse engineering to find the finger hole locations, if you have a new ball (and all balls being different)...how do you get the pap of a ball before you drill it? And can you really translate info from from one ball to the other? Thanks
The PAP doesn't change from ball to ball.
Great information Ronald thank you so much
Can you find the PAP by tracking the oil ring instead of guessing by using tape.
You can it's just not as accurate.
@@Ctdbowling From this video, I could not determine that the tape did not wobble off Dustin's hand. Isn't the first oil ring more accurate than guessing when the tape does not wobble in 200mS from delivery? Thanks, good work!
Question…I have been a one handed no thumb bowler for a while. I want to make the transition to traditional thumb in bowling. I got with my local pro shop and they found my PAP based on me throwing a couple of balls down lane using my no thumb grip. I inquired as to why they didn’t try and find my PAP based on a thumb in grip, since that is what I want to migrate to. They told made it wouldn’t make a difference. I am confused. If I want a ball based on a specific grip style, shouldn’t they have measured me using that grip style? With my no thumb grip I heavily rotate the ball while I am much flatter down lane with a thumb in grip. The PAP has to be different between the two grip styles doesn’t it?
Thanks much!
I'm no expert, but as someone who just got his first asym bowling ball drilled without knowing his PaP, I think the answer is you just need to develop it first before they can accurately gauge it.
Couldn’t t you find the PAP on a house ball and use that measurement on the new ball if you don’t have an existing ball?
No, because you will throw it differently when using a house ball.
But wouldn't your PAP vary based on how the ball is drilled? So 2 different balls with 2 different layouts give 2 different PAP's since the ball is leaving the hand at 2 different positions?
So you have to drill a ball first then what fill it and drill it accordingly if it’s not what you want
Most people have a bowling ball to start. If you are just starting out. Layout is the least of your concerns. You should work on repeating shots.
How much can a pap change? I have changed my release a little bit and am wondering if it will affect my pap.
This video just kind of gave me that "aha" moment. I understand what the PAP is now. So, I feel confident in saying that yes, if you change how you release the ball (any ball, for that matter) your PAP will be different.
Ok, being serious here, WHAT THE HECK?!?! No "Pro" shop in the California bay area knows this stuff. EVERY shop I've taken balls to out here just grabs the ball and say's "OK" when I say I need a ball drilled. I always have to stop them and ask "Don't you need more info than finger and grip size?" Where are you? I feel like I should fly out and see you for ball drilling!
Ctdeducationcenter.com
If my pro shop is not inside a bowling center how do I do this on my own?
Ideally ask a friend to make a video of you releasing the ball. Then throw the ball and observe oily skid marks on its surface. They will appear as concentric rings (more or less). Pick the one which is the closest to your thumb hole and treat it like equator on an imaginary globe. Then mark the imaginary pole on this globe using a small sticker. If you throw the ball again, the sticker should not wobble too much at the moment of release. If it does, make small adjustments to sticker position until the sticker doesn't wobble. The reason you need a friend or a video is that it's impossible for you as a thrower to see the ball rotation immediately after release. After a couple of attempts the sticker will mark your PAP.
Is that the pinnacle in Clarksville, Tn? Because if so come bowl with me
Get a armadillo
Nice to see these guys at the alley I'm going tonight to measure my pap
Like 1000
The tape was wobbling
My driller can get my PAP by just looking at me throw one shot. Do I need to tell you who my driller is? Ok, I will Scott Pohl! He can look by the oil rings on my ball.
I know Scott Pohl personally. I can tell you there isn't anyone that can get a axis point by looking at a shot thrown without tape. As mentioned in the video oil rings are after the ball hits the lane. We are looking for off of the hand. Thanks for watching.
@@Ctdbowling I can get Mo Pinel to do it, and since Scott is a Mo student I don't think you have a clue. Mo did it with me with in 5 minutes. Axis tilt and rotation.
What else you got?
@@freighttrain1695 lol Mo would have probably used a Armadillo to find the axis point, since he invented it. Here, what is your real name and I'll ask him. Do a little research and you will find that the method shown is the 2nd most accurate way to find the PAP. The first and absolute best method is using Bowler ID. If you do some research on that product you will see why and you might learn some more about the inventor.