Hi all, thank you so much for watching! While this video is the result of 100's of hours of research and work, it still only scratches the surface on this incredibly complicated topic. If you are interested in hearing me explore this topic further, please let me know in the comments! I am definitely open to making more videos. If you think I got something wrong, please let me know (preferably with a source) below this comment. I will list corrections in this comment as they arise. Finally, if you could like, subscribe and share this video, it would really mean a lot! Thanks again for watching, until next time, happy practicing~
Great presentation by the way! I enjoyed seeing something of this quality about what I am about to go to school for. Music is such a strange world, and music education from the conservatory side is incredibly diverse and odd. I'd love to hear more on this subject!
My advice as a conservatory student in Berlin from America is to just come to the old world. There are more opportunities as a teacher, more orchestras that pay well per square kilometer, and more public interest in classical music. The cost of education is much cheaper too.
@@carsonbarnesharp If you can pull it off, by all means do! I’d recommend looking into Leipzig. It’s cheap, historic, beautiful, and it has an extremely musical culture.
From what I've heard Paris is notoriously difficult for ear training and analysis entrance exams. But if you've got those 3 voice Scarlatti ---> cluster chord dictation skill then french might be your only issue. Which would be solved by a 6 month Integration course prior to auditioning.
Another layer to this is the cost of professional quality instruments. For tubists, it’s common to see students spend (or take out loans for) $15,000-$30,000 for a contrabass and a bass tuba.
Very true, the path to becoming a professional musician is filled with additional costs that I don’t cover at all in this video. Thank you for watching!
Tuba player here, was about to say the same thing. Inflationary pressures on prices have also affected this. The very college student grade tuba I bought in 2000 was $3900 then, which would be $6500 in 2022 dollars. That model now goes for about $13,000. I am really not sure how even a serious amateur can enjoy playing classical music anymore given the costs. I can't imagine what it's like for pros who need the best stuff!
Sadly, one of the biggest problems today is we have too many music students training for too few jobs. One important statement or claim not stated in the video is how severe the competition for the major symphonies really is. New or recent graduates are not competing against their peers, they are competing against seasoned veteran classical musicians that have played in lower tier symphonies for 10 and 15 years looking to move up a notch! With the spread of classical music lovers originating in Europe to the Americas in the early 20th century and then into Asia during the 1970s, and beyond, we have quite simply put in place a system that will never require the skilled output of musicians produced by all the world's conservatories into a professional world of Symphony, Opera, and formal Theatre, all of which struggle to maintain themselves, in today's modern world. The truth is that the love for fine music and art continue to grow because of the small number of people that love it live so long and are outpacing the general and fast paced decline in the interest of these arts in the big picture of the society in general. And as clearly demonstrated above, If the best that the top classical musicians in NYC or San Francisco or Vienna or London can achieve is the equivalent of $120,000, then we must understand there is a serious problem in the world of classical music as a profession. I am a Juilliard grad from the Pre-college division during the 1970s and never attended another music school afterwards. I am so happy I did not. I spent 30+ years working in IT and then in private business and kept music and opera as my love and passion, not my work. The tuition for Juilliard Undergrad degree during my years, $3100 per year. A final thought, I cannot stop thinking how all colleges and universities are really nothing more than machines seeking to maintain their own existence like any other business. All the music conservatories too me seem much larger today with the sizes of their programs, etc... than back in the day when I was a music student. Is it just business today? I know these schools must have many more people employed today that are not into music, etc... Oh... my how the world has changed.
The reason there are too many music students at conservatories is precisely because there are few performance jobs available and the music professors need a good job too.
I am a Juilliard grad, BM 1989, MM 1991. My wife is a Curtis grad, we are both bassoonists, expats, we are currently working together in an orchestra in Spain. My first year at Juilliard, tuition was $6,800 per year… anyway, we’ve been here since 1994. We both did the audition circuit, one of us would often make the finals, not usually both. The last BIG audition we played, we both advanced to the finals, then they cancelled the audition and gave the job to the sub. We have 4 children, none went into music, but 3 are in college. Americans don’t realize this, but as Europeans, we may spend between 800-1000€ a year on tuition costs? Some other countries in the EU, it’s free. You are on the nose, when we started out here we put one salary towards my student loan debt and paid it off quickly. ( I used it to purchase and instrument, bassoons aren’t cheap. Actually that is another “debt” you can talk about). I love my job, wouldn’t change a thing, but … there are so many talented and amazing and players that never get a job…. I do see the level of public education in Europe much higher, there is higher public support too. Most people in the street know what a bassoon is, by name. In Spain, most towns have a “Conservatory” and a municipal band. The conservatory is free, from 8 years through high school age. I feel a strong public support from our community and often meet people in the street with positive comments. Orchestras aren’t seen as such an “elite” thing, as in the US. I’m sorry, there is too much to talk about. My ADHD doesn’t help this… I played a music festival in Germany in 1989, in Berlin we had a sold out concert, outside, in the rain, 20,000 people, many young people. I was stunned.
Thank you for sharing your experience as an expat who moved to Europe! A pianist friend who moved to Europe to study also commented about the strong public support. The idea that most people on the street would know what a bassoon is speaks volumes about the cultural shift in regards to how the music is appreciated. Thank you again for sharing!
Thank you for laying it out so well! As an orchestral player for over 53 years, I have tried to convey the gist of it to my students for a long time. As one of my more famous colleagues once said, it is easier to get elected governor of a state than to get a job as an orchestral tuba (or harp) player (do the math). I also try to alert them to some of the other realities of the audition system: 1) While the purpose of an audition is to eventually find the “best” player for the job, the flip side of that is to eliminate everyone else… and sometimes the litmus tests of the audition committee members can be rather arbitrary. You’ve got to do more than just play “perfectly.” 2) In orchestras that still screen resumes, a top 10 conservatory or school of music on one’s resume can help get you at least invited to the prelims. That said, every orchestra has players who went to “lesser” schools in their ranks. The current trend towards “open calls” is helping to eliminate this bias, which also extends to nods afforded to players from a particular “school” of playing already entrenched in the orchestra. 3) Many orchestras offer courtesy advancement to a small number of candidates already playing in a peer or above orchestra. While this could open up a slot down the food chain (often for a single year), it doesn’t make it any easier to advance past the “cattle call” knowing that those players are already in the next round. That said, in many if not most of the auditions I’ve heard, the pre-advanced player doesn’t end up winning the job- rather players who get high scores for all rounds often do better. 4) Diversity- This is a whole other topic, although related. It is proving very difficult to increase the numbers of Black and Latino(x) musicians, largely because of the low numbers present in our conservatories, SOMs and American orchestras themselves. I’ve seen the playing field helped by generous financial aid provided, including to my own gifted Minority students, three of which are currently in the top schools. With 100 or so audition candidates for one position, it is taking a long time for the numbers of Minority players to increase as a proportion of the audition pool. The quality of music education in many Minority pre-college schools is often lacking, and without help from orchestral training programs and city-wide youth orchestras, the situation could be much worse than it is. As your excellent video shows, it is very, very difficult for any young aspiring artist to land a job in one of our top 37 (or 54) orchestras even with sufficient early training and financial resources. 5) There is a chicken and egg at work here- Conservatories and SOMs need large programs in order to attract sufficient young players to fill their own symphony orchestra(s). Orchestral training and experience are crucial to getting a job. Working on perfecting the same 20 excerpts for 4 yrs is not the same thing. 6) None of this is new in the overall entertainment industry. Broadway shows use a cattle call system to audition singers and dancers and it used to be much more brutal than it is even today. The quality of players out there, taught largely by those of us currently IN orchestras is quite high (although we all know of frequent no-hire situations). If a conservatory education were free, the situation with the numbers would likely be even worse. 7) Have a backup plan if that’s at all possible. Most musicians I know are good at other things besides playing their horns. As a group, we’re smart, well-disciplined and driven, and can carve a niche anywhere, whether within classical music or not. Many symphonic players play a lot of chamber music, teach privately and coach, create masterclasses, compose/arrange, organize and run their own large ensembles, are active in the AFM and/or committees, etc. You can get involved in those activities, whether or not you have an orchestra job. It is a target-rich industry, music! - Michael Moore, Tuba, Atlanta Symphony
Thank you for the kind words and for taking the time to share your thoughts! Your comment highlights so many of the various issues present within the field (many of which I would have struggled to quantify with data), but I appreciate you sharing your perspective as someone who has been able to spend their career dedicated to the art form and industry!
Just finished watching this video. Honestly, I was not surprised, just dismayed. We have an entire industry dedicated to lying to and preying upon people who are legally allowed to make massive financial decisions, but who almost universally do not have any experience doing so.
Truth. I had planned on a performance degree after graduating high school but the crushing debt scared me (even back in the 80's the cost seemed like a lot to me). So I opted for the military. I'm SO glad I spent 20+ years in the Navy bands traveling the world, making an adequate living as a full time musician and then retiring with a pension at 38.
Thank you SO much for making this video! For the longest time I thought I was not good enough even after getting a DMA and a CV full of research, performances, and leadership. I have been working so hard for YEARS, and my situation made me think I was still not working hard enough, having enough faith, etc. It is somewhat relieving to see that it has never been my fault. The numbers don’t lie. It comes down to those numbers and statistics. I will never be able to work against them! I wish my professors would’ve been honest about the current state of things in music. It’s a nothing burger. I had a Visiting Assistant Professor of Piano position at a University and realized that the whole advancement game sucks. The majority of the things that count are the things you do outside of your 40-hr load. You constantly need to be serving the community, presenting at conferences for free, performing for free, doing outreach for free… when is it enough!? Talk about a recipe for anxiety, depression, and burnout.
About 20 years ago Juilliard announced that its endowment was large enough to offer free tuition to all its students. It said it was going to do it, but never did.
Grim reality. Also why I refused to teach anymore at some of the conservatories mentioned, nor privately (exception: Professionals who need my help). A poem for this era: The fiddler's in the subway The bugler's in the park The music schools are vacant The concert halls are dark
As an aspiring orchestral musician, what you bring up in this video is why I create social media content in the first place. IMO you have to be unhealthily obssessed and detail oriented with music to play at the level you need to for these orhestral gigs. I wouldn't recommend people go to music school unless they receive a substantial scholarship. Most professionals make a good chunk of their income by teaching, where you can make $40-$150+ an hour. Money earned from playing in orchestra is secondary to the joy we have making music.
A friend sent this to me, and after doing three degrees I cannot begin to articulate (ha ha) how true this rings to me. The easiest subscribe I've clicked in recent memory, great video dude.
I also think one sad reality that you may want to address, is that in these "top music schools", most of the students aren't really taking on that much exorbitant debt. If there are, they are usually outnumbered. As someone who grew up in the "elite" circles of classical music, I can tell you that most US conservatory kids come from wealthy families, where even after receiving a meager scholarship, their parents are able to afford their remaining exorbitant tuition without financial aid. Just think about how expensive it is alone to afford all the costs of raising a kid to the level required to get into schools like Juilliard, Curtis, Rice, NEC, etc. Classical music has extremely high barriers to entry. I totally agree that US conservatory prices are a scam for the ROI, but as long as there are rich families that can send their kids there, and private student loans allowing just about anyone to take on crazy debt, the conservatories have no incentive to lower tuition. They're businesses first, after all. Kudos to tuition-free places like Colburn, Curtis, and Yale for existing, but again, it's mostly affluent kids who have the resources available to end up there regardless.
This is GREAT! Thank you for posting! BRAVO !! A couple of comments #1. Students should recognize that there is a built-in ethical problem in the set-up of almost all music schools. Faculty are expected to recruit students into their studios. Frequently, recruitment is required in their contracts. IF a faculty member is not successful in recruiting an adequate number of students, that faculty member, by contact, can be denied promotion and/or tenure or terminated before promotion or tenure are considered. Simply put, there is a built-in conflict of interest between the faculty member and the potential student. It is thus potentially to the faculty member's interest to misrepresent possibilities for students' employment , suggesting there are more opportunities for employment than there or or at least avoiding discussing the issue. And yes, in my career, I have known faculty who do this. #2 If a school recruitment officer or administrator does not make a point of directing the potential student to the Department of Education's "Score Card" webpage (that you site) that potential student should be deeply suspicious that the institution does not want the potential student to know that information. In my opinion, it is a sign that the particular institution is operating for the benefit of the institution and not the potential student (and yes, I direct ALL of my students at MTSU to that score card EACH SEMESTER). Finally, again in my opinion, increasingly American institutions of higher learning--not just music schools--are predatory upon their students. All students should enter their college careers suspicious of their institutions' purposes and armed to protect their own interests against the interests of the institutions. Again, these are my personal opinions, but they are based upon over 40 years of work in colleges and universities. -- Mike Linton
I really appreciate you taking the time to write out this comment! My video is of course rooted from the student perspective, but it is so important and invaluable to see comments coming from the faculty/administrator side of things as well!
Very interesting content. I went to Juilliard in piano, and have no regrets whatsoever. I’ve served on the faculties of four universities from New York to California. I’m not an orchestral player- more of a soloist with orchestras, so this aspect isn’t on my radar. I will agree with Van Cliburn, who said that the only person who should pursue a career in music is someone who can’t live without it. I’ve had students over the years who were conflicted about what career path to follow. If anyone has such a conflict, I almost always encourage them to choose the other field. Music is indeed the most competitive field you can be in. And there are never guarantees you will have a career. I’ve known people who went to med school as their backup career. But I started out poor and now live in America’s most expensive city. You can do it, if you keep your dream alive and all options on the table. Do what you love most and the money will come. I’m convinced. I wish everyone luck, and thanks for a fantastic video. It should give any aspiring musician food for thought. My Juilliard degree is gold to me and my diploma hangs on my studio wall. One person said it looks like a doctor’s office!!
I think the idea that you should only go into music if you can't live without it is a sick one. In a social society, such as the ones we see in Europe, you don't to take absurd risks to pursue music. Not everybody gets to go to the fanciest schools, but they have the right to a decent life, contributing to the cultural life of their communities. Society should support the arts. American society does not.
@@returning-to-nature I agree on everything you’ve written here. You’re preaching to the choir! On the other hand, one must remember that in a capitalist country, like the USA, people still need to earn their living. It’s far easier to earn a living with a medical doctor degree, or lawyer, or businessman. In Europe, where the arts are considered a necessary part of living, there is a different attitude. I feel sorry for any American musician who has split interests, and goes into music, and yet can’t earn a decent income.
@@plaguedoc7727 I already had a Bachelor’s degree, and a pretty large repertoire at that point. It’s one of the most competitive schools in any field. I think their acceptance rate is similar to Harvard- between five and eight percent. They now have pre-screening, which means they hear a video before you’re invited to audition in person. I was told the best way to know if you could get into the school is to talk to a faculty memory and study with them privately first. They will get you into the school if they think it’s a good fit. I didn’t do that, but I know many who did. Good luck to you! PS I’ll add that different instruments have different levels of competitiveness. I think piano and violin are probably the most competitive.
Eric, your work is always so impressive and wonderful. This one however is SO crucial for every clarinetist (and non-clarinetist) out there considering this field! Being a freelancer in NYC, I definitely see the benefits of going to the top schools (especially Juilliard+ MSM), mostly for the networking purpose. However, when I see how much debt they are still paying off after all these years, I'm not so sure. Trying to pay off crazy loans with an average music career is such a crazy task. If any aspiring musicians are reading this, I'd encourage you to consume all the facts as early as possible, because they will help you make some important decisions down the road. Don't turn away from them because they make you uncomfortable! If you really want a long and happy career, you have to figure out how to achieve it, instead of running away from the problems that will surely catch up to you at some point. ALWAYS work on skills/ interests outside of just playing your main instrument. It does not make you a bad clarinetist. We are in unprecendented times in so many ways, and our teachers can only help us to a certain point. You have to listen to your heart, look at the current market and where it's headed, and make decisions upon your predictions.
Hi Tony, your insight as a musician who spent a long time in NYC is invaluable, thank you for taking the time to comment! "ALWAYS work on skills/ interests outside of just playing your main instrument. It does not make you a bad clarinetist." This quote is also so important and should be shouted from the rooftops! As always, thank you for watching and for the kind words!
Another thing worth mentioning I was seen as super talented and did eventually win an orchestral job. After 10 years of doing so I wanted to move. Orchestral musicians are largely stuck in one job. Most musicians were so unhappy in this orchestra and so many complain in orchestras....I think maybe because we are taught to value talent and ability over who we are as people and how we treat one another.... I am changing careers because I am tired of auditioning and I want more options. Most careers allow people to switch from job to job and there are more options. Musicians get stuck. Paying to take auditions is expensive and we cannot choose where we live. So many times I see where I am auditioning and have no idea how I could live there. Many Musicians start off desperate and then when they get a job realise they do not or cannot stand living where the job is for other reasons. As we get older other things become priority. I could go on.
Thank you for putting this out there, my son had a dream, and because of the odds, he didn’t quite get there. The pandemic made things much worse, many orchestras have closed down and actually reduced the salaries for the permanent musicians. If anything, now things are much worse than you even suggested.
This is the type of content I like to see as someone who did both an undergraduate and master's in music performance (viola) but did NOT go to conservatory. You can still get a wonderful music education and go to a state school and pay a fraction of the price. I also double majored in undergrad so that I would have 1 non-music major as well. Be smart fellow musicians and good luck!!
@George Melas As a trombonist I totally understand that. However, there are many other opportunities outside of the symphonic realm! As a music student, I believe it is necessary to be as well-rounded as possible and study multiple genres and styles. Not sure why so many music students put themselves in boxes…
I am very grateful to have come across this video. It addresses a lot of concerns I had when I was entering my undergraduate studies in August 2018. I just graduated in December from a small liberal arts college and conservatory. Seeing the numbers in this video made me so glad I chose the path that I did. My parents advised me not to take on any debt for college, and I decided to follow their advice to work in the summers instead of attending music festivals. I have been considering a few questions since I've graduated: 1. Is the established "path" to success in music truly the only way to make it? By "path", I mean going to an expensive conservatory, paying for festivals in the summer, and studying with the most popular teachers. 2. Are there ways to mitigate the risks that Eric laid out in the video? This might be done by working in the summers and school year, going to a less expensive college or university, and focusing on a well-rounded education and life like Tony mentioned. After all, if you complete a well-rounded, lower cost music degree without much debt and you choose to work in another field after graduation, did you really waste your education? 3. Assuming that the end goal is to be happy and fulfilled, can a debt-strapped classical musician accomplish this goal, regardless of their level of success in the industry? For anyone who is considering taking on significant debt for music school, I would encourage you to consider: "is this the only way?" I have met many amazing teachers at mid-tier programs like New Mexico, Memphis, and Ohio State. These teachers give so much of their time and effort to hard-working students, and this kind of education comes at a fraction of the cost of high-level conservatories. Plus, you can explore many fields like scholarship, pedagogy, conducting, and composition, graduating as a well-rounded musician, not just a good performer.
I was a senior and already dealing with depression when the pandemic hit and annihilated the music industry. I was horrified. Lost all my students. I dropped out and went to work for aldi for a few months. Eventually I managed to get into a front end development role a couple years later and I keep the music on the side.
Thanks, excellent video. The author would likely succeed as a highly paid management analyst in any field. Probably best that the issue of prospects for concert soloists was not discussed (even more dire). Today's 'education' costs are definitely skewed.
I think the other big depressing thing about this whole situation is that it limits opportunities in music to only those people who already have the wealth to go to these top schools without taking much or any debt. This is the great tragedy of the 2000s, the defunding of public higher education and the huge tuition costs that essentially cut off easy access to the middle class for anyone whose family can’t easily afford it. I do think we have to recognize that as clarinetists, we’re in a uniquely awful position (along with the flutists). There are just so many excellent players and so few opportunities in symphonies. When I was considering going into music in the 80s, that was the thing everyone dreams of - getting an orchestral gig. But even then it was almost impossible, there just aren’t enough of them, and it’s worse now. I kind of recognized this and it was a significant factor in my not pursuing music. The thing is, if I had known how many other ways there are to make a living in music performance, perhaps I would not have been deterred. It’s not an easy life of course, but it’s a lot more possible than if you limit yourself to looking only at orchestral openings. I think as clarinetists, there is so much opportunity to expand the market. Professional clarinet quartets are just not a thing for some reason. Reed quintets are starting to get some traction but there is a huge opportunity there too and that has two clarinets. Because these ensembles aren’t tied down to the hidebound and reactionary symphonic repertoire, there is all kinds of opportunity to commission and create new music. Again - not easy! But possible. I think this is the thing. As in almost all creative fields, the people who are going to be successful are going to figure out new ways to be successful, not follow old paths which are basically worn out by previous generations and where the opportunities have already been taken.
This is excellent. Thank you for posting it/breaking it down. Everyone needs to watch this that is considering majoring in music; and private teachers need to share this with their aspiring students just for FYI.
Wow! Every college person looking at a music career ... and their parents .. need to watch this video to get a dose of reality. I majored in computer science (about 30 years ago) and am able have a lot of fun playing clarinet in various groups. Having dreams and passions are great, but the needs to be an honest dialog with college students about the long-term effects of their choices. Numbers ($$$$$$) talk. This applied to ALL MAJORS, not just music. Having 3 kids that have gone through college (2 and 4 year schools), it's pretty sickening at what they are charging these days. Thanks for all the work you've done putting this video together. MUCH APPRECIATED
I am about to go into music. Thankfully, Music education is my major, and I have been hearing in my school search over and over again "you've gotta know how to teach before you will know how to play." I think this honestly reflects the world that the passionate young musicians live in today. Even if you don't get into an orchestra for a long time, you can spend a few years in K12 or as a private lesson teacher. All while still playing and maybe auditioning. For me, I am less interested in the classical orchestra world, (thanks in large part to marching band and Drum corps) and more interested in the directing standpoint of the field. I hope all you musicians, teachers, and performers all find your way around these things!
Great job on this! This topic has been a frequent one for my content, and you laid it out so well. Just subscribed, and looking forward to more of your videos!
@@ParkHouseCreations Jason’s book and blog post series “Road Warrior Without an Expense Account” (about the reality of freelance musicians) is well worth reading.
Thank you for this huuuuge research project! Definitely a huge issue and music schools equivocate on this endlessly. Glad to see someone else concerned about this and excited for the future of music training we will build!
Hi Drew, thank you for watching and taking the time to comment! With the unexpected attention this video has received and with all the people sharing their experiences, I am with you! It makes me very hopeful that the system can be improved for future generations!
Great research and great information Eric. This is a really well made video. I'd say much of the performance degree programs prepare students for the performance aspects of being a musician but not the networking or self-promotion aspects. Further, many of the people I knew who graduated with music degrees ended up in careers not in music just because the majority of opportunities out there involve teaching for relatively little pay. I hope people who are looking into the prospects of studying music at a conservatory find this video. (:
You make a good point. Many people think that they will be the exception. I think part of this is the fact that when we are in high school back in our regions that we might be considered to be a phenomenon. Places like Curtis, Juilliard, the Paris Conservatory, etc. are literally gathering points for such people. The math is scary because you are not just competing with those people for an orchestra job. You are also competing with people that attended school before and after you as well. Since conditions are so harsh, corruption is rampant. One of the biggest sucker games going is screened auditions. The orchestras ALWAYS know who they want well in advance (or at least have narrowed the pool way down). For example, if your mother walked behind a screen and spoke, you would know that it's your mother without having to see her face, right? Everyone has a "fingerprint." Signals can also be used. I've seen and heard about it all because I've been a member of an audition committee but refused to participate in the corruption (was never asked back).
I decided against going any further than my bachelor's in performance, and I'm glad. I still perform with symphonies regularly, have a steady income with benefits, can get my MBA, and will still be able to do recitals and festivals. Best decision I ever made.
I think this vid should be recommended to anyone thinking about and/or currently pursuing a career in orchestral performance. I've recently won a principal clarinet position at a full-time orchestra, and even though I don't owe as much in student loans as the average, and I'm guaranteed pay all 52 weeks, it is still a hell of a mountain to just now start climbing. Just thinking about how exceedingly lucky I got and the painfully rough grind and struggle I had to go through, I don't know if I would recommend this outright gamble to anyone and still have a clean conscience. There are still so many people out there that deserve it just as much and maybe even more than I did that won't have their break or chance at success...it definitely makes you think if we should redefine what "success" and "making it" should look like, given what the cost of entry is. Still, good luck to those trying to defy the odds. Thanks for the hard work that went into this vid
Hey Andres, first of all, congratulations on your recent audition win!! And I couldn’t agree more about needing to redefine what success or “making it” looks like as a community. Thank you for watching!
@@ParkHouseCreations Yeah definitely! I've been looking for more music and clarinet content like this too, been binging your vids man! They're amazing, keep them up!
Sadly, this video only confirms the conclusion I came to back in the late-1980s when I was struggling with the choice to go to conservatory or a traditional college. I chose the latter and had resolved that doing so meant I would not study music, even though that was still an option at the conventional college. It came down to two things: (1) the lack of diversity in the classical world meant I saw no high-profile professional clarinetists who looked like me playing in orchestras (something that has gotten better since then--there was no Anthony McGill back then) and (2) the likelihood of a lifetime of just scraping by financially. Those factors made a career in music unappealing. Music career opportunities have changed dramatically since then. Streaming and social media platforms have made it much easier for talented performers to publish work and be heard, and to build audiences literally around the world. At the same time, the low barriers to entry means musicians have to fight to gain attention from among all the others doing the same thing. I would argue that conservatories aren't doing enough to prepare students for the "gig" of "performing" for audiences for streaming platforms and social media, or how to leverage them for career momentum and acceleration. Berklee is a notable exception, but Berklee has always had a more commercial bent. Would be great to get your take on how most musicians really develop their careers and support themselves financially. Is getting a well-paying role in a symphony still the ultimate goal for aspiring musicians?
This is why I went the music ed route instead of pursuing performance. Music education graduates are basically guaranteed jobs after they graduate, plus they can continue performing if they wish to do so.
Hey Derrick, thank you for your comment and I really appreciate you sharing some of your own background and the conclusions you came to in regards to this topic. You bring up a good point about streaming and social media platforms and I actually do have quite a few thoughts about how these are impacting and might impact the classical music world in the future. I am way behind schedule on many videos, but I think I should add that one to the list anyway. In regards to your questions at the end, I think they are worthy of another video as well. Thank you for the prompts! My editing process isn't the fastest, but hopefully you see these topics covered in the not too distant future!
This is my son's dream, to be in a wind symphony. Really he was born in the wrong era. He would fit so nicely in a 1940's big band like Benny Goodman or Count Basie. He plays clarinet and we are currently trying to figure out his college route. He doesn't want to teach and doesn't want to be in the military so it's looking like he'll be in that category of screwed unless you're one of the super lucky few. I found it interesting that one of our state schools was on that list of colleges with alumni in top orchestras. He's considering their music program, but also considering majoring in something else and getting a minor in music. Right now he's just hoping he can find a different career path to pay the bills and be able to join a community band or orchestra to play in, because he just wants to play. He also doubles on sax and is learning flute so that will help make him more marketable musically, but we really think he's going to have to do something else to make a living and just make music his hobby on steroids.
@@BabyPurpleBug Im afraid teaching is the only realistic route for your son if we wants to pursue a wind symphony career. Most wind symphonies in the US are school-based or university-based.
I think one important thing to note is that the students getting in to the top music programs are already the cream of crop in their cohort. And given the number of players in orchestras that graduated from schools like Juilliard as mentioned in your video, are these schools really that much better at preparing students than some of the other schools? If someone is really a top-tier player going into music school they should really consider the cost of attendance for any school they’re accepted into.
Ya, at the end of the day, we definitely need to encourage young musicians to truly consider the economic reality of their potential school choice, instead of just the -oftentimes- blinding artistic aspect of the choice.
I went to an Eastern music school to study violin. I remember auditioning for the Cincinatti Symphony in 1976. There were around 100 applicants. I didn't make it past the preliminaries. What surprises me is the quality of students has increased at music schools, when you would think the opposite would be happening with the scarcity of jobs. I was watching some vids of the jazz ensemble at my alma mater and the quality was extremely high. What do those sax players and drummers plan to do? No doubt many composition students want to do film music like Michael Giacchino who did "The Batman" score so I hope they succeed getting into the industry.
Thank you. That was a very honest approach for something that sweeps students in based on emotion and glamour. I went through a two-year Music Production course in College years ago and was told that their stats for graduate employment were 82%. Only later I was told that if I got a job working a cash register in a music store I was technically “working in the industry.” If Mom and Dad dished out $300,000 for a music education they would do that if they were rich and well-connected, so rich and well-connected that their kid would definitely get a job after graduation. There is also a badge of status by going to these schools - it means Mom & Dad are rich. Today that is played up whereas at one time that was played down. I think to succeed in music you need two things: 1) know important people and 2) have a lot of money... money so you can buy important people to get what you want done. By knowing influential and wealthy people we are going back to the patronage era. But then you can ask when has classical music not had patronage?
You speak the truth. My first degree was in Music Education at a school in Louisiana back in 1980. My first job offer was $7,500 teaching job in southern Louisiana which included teaching girl's PE. I ended up going back to get a Bachelor's in Electronics Technology Engineering. That allowed me to make money to live after about 10 years.
Someone should also mention that since demand is so small, the level of corruption is very high. This means that even if you are exceptional you can be perpetually blocked out simply because you weren't in a certain circle. This has happened to me and many others.
The truth is that the pool of potential students would be better off if 80% of music school admissions were eliminated. The best students - the ones most likely to get paying jobs - would still succeed, and the rest would be spared the inevitable failure. Almost all who are 'best in my school' fail. Almost all who are 'best in by city' fail. Almost all who are 'best in my state' fail. Almost all who are 'best in my conservatory' fail. There's no mystery to it. A handful of novelists sell most of the books. A handful of pop musicians sell most of the CDs/get most of the streaming system listens. Everyone else just pays the salaries of teachers/administrators so that the very best can have a conservatory experience.
I think many people who teach in Conservatories have a vested interest in hiding the terrible truth from students. If they discouraged students to study by telling them the reality, the teachers wouldn’t have a job. So they give students praise - tell them they’re very talented, give them scholarships, and create an environment that gives students a false sense of reality. Also, the market has very little demand for classical music - very few people listen to it so there are very few performance opportunities.
This presentation can also be extended to higher education in general, as both the colleges, universities and conservatories fleece their economically ignorant students.
I'm an international student and this is one of the biggest reasons of opting for a Graduate Program to attend any institution in the U. S. It's easier to get a scholarship and there's less worry about loans.
You make many good points. I would add that nobody should take on that amount of debt for an undergraduate degree of any kind. If you cannot afford a school then look elsewhere. There are many state schools that will cost 10% of an elite school. The go to your dream school for grad school. I would also say it's nearly an impossibly that any undergraduate wind player would win a high level orchestra gig straight out of school. It will take many years of doing the audition circuit to accomplish this goal. So definitely have a plan for supporting yourself out of college.
I just kept saying “yep” to everything, haha. Very well done, Eric, I’m sure this will be food for thought for many. For me, during the years that followed after graduation, I’ve managed to stay musically busy and that’s a direct result of the relationships I made and cultivated at Peabody. Do I wish I didn’t have a small mortgage to pay in student loan debt? 💯 Because I was one of the lucky ones to get no scholarship assistance at all. Is it a great source of stress when I think about it too deeply? Absolutely. So much so, that I FOUND relief when I learned that that debt won’t stop me from doing life things later, like buying a house or whatever else. Certainly won’t make it easy, but still good to know. But sad that I even have to know it. And I agree with the statement of no one preparing us for the physical, mental, and emotional fortitude it takes to “make it.” But one thing I’ve learned, is everyone’s idea of success is different. It will LOOK different from person to person. And if one doesn’t at least have an idea of what that means for them, it’s easy to get lost; once it’s reached, new benchmarks should be set. At least, that’s what’s worked for me. But it’s a never-ending puzzle of finding musical fulfillment, life balance, and giving ourselves permission to be proud of our work and efforts-no matter the size of the achievement, ESPECIALLY the size-even if it doesn’t match the level of someone else’s. Because that asinine stigma that, if we’re not eating, sleeping, and breathing our craft 24/7, we’re selling out, not serious, or it’s become a “hobby” now, still exists. At the end of the day, it is this: does what I’m doing matter to me, joyfully fulfill me, and make me feel like I’ve made a difference? And if the answer is yes to all of those-to anyone reading this- you’re doing fine. Musically, or otherwise. Off my soap box, also, look at you 12k views-O 👏🏽 KAY 👏🏽
Taylor, thank you, not only for the kind words, but for sharing your experience and offering hope and encouragement to those who might be reading. You are absolutely right, the stigma that we must all eat, sleep and breathe our craft 24/7 to be taken seriously needs to end. “At the end of the day, it is this: does what I’m doing matter to me, joyfully fulfill me, and make me feel like I’ve made a difference? And if the answer is yes to all of those-to anyone reading this- you’re doing fine.” If I could like this a hundred times, I absolutely would! I’m grateful our paths crossed while at Peabody, let’s catch up soon!
One very important factor you forgot to mention is family wealth. I would bet the median family income of students going to these schools is very high.
This video gives a good picture of the problems faced by high level performers at the nations best music schools. Even more of a problem are the countless universities with low level performance programs that have countless performance majors who will NEVER have the skills to win a job. These schools can charge just as much as a top tier conservatory. I did a performance degree at school where there isn’t a single person I’ve ever heard of who went on to win a job in the field. Universities should not be allowing countless young people to get a performance degree when the school itself has zero success getting these majors jobs.
Hi all, You should make another video analizing that , the Music for the First time in Human history, Is FREE ( as an industry)...but is Free for everyone except for us ( the musicians). The Industry beat piracy music, but for a tremendous cost. If the music access is free or nearly free, that means that our product don t have price cost. The globalization , the monopolization of the 2 main plataforms of streaming ( for free ) Spotify and youtube and the fact that you don t know the algoritm that place you in a playlist before offering your product. I have a position in an symphonic orchestra as clarinetist. Great video! Congratulations!
Btw, Drew McManus at Adaptistration is a great source for those compensation numbers in case you need that for future videos. He’s a friend, so feel free to tell him that I sent you.
I am certainly in agreement with most of your thoughts, but I'm not really sure that I would call it a "scam." These schools are all trying to do the best that they can at training people to succeed in what they have decided that they want to pursue. They need to have students participating together in order to fulfill all of these goals, and they are trying to pay their professors (and others) a good wage (we could also talk about how difficult it would be to get a clarinet job at one of these institutions, which SHOULD pay them well for being at the top of their game). It's a very complex situation, not the least of it being that Classical Music is dying because of so many other issues related to education and media. Thanks for your thoughtful video.
Thanks for the kind words and taking the time to share your perspective. You are absolutely right that it is an incredibly complex situation and ultimately my video only barely scratches the surface. I do want to do a video on the prospects of getting an academic job in the future, but that will probably be a ways down the road! Thank you for watching!
I graduated from Peabody in 1986...my trumpet teacher was Wayne Cameron...he insisted that all of his students Major in Music Education...I have been teaching in a public school for 35 years...at that time Peabody was not outrageously expensive...with a 1/3 scholarship my parents paid the rest and I graduated debt free...
As a 70 year old professional musician I can tell you that everything here is true. I have survived by playing musical theater, orchestras (free lance), concertizing, funerals, weddings, receptions…. We are the only first world nation that does not support the arts. In all of Europe, Asia, and even Russia, the arts are supported by the government. Education is usually free and they don’t have to rely on rich people to support the arts. Also, ticket prices are much lower so more people can hear you and there is higher demand. Music conservatories are not a scam. The problem is that the government does not pay for them. They are all independent for-profit institutions and until that changes this America-only problem will only get worse. Higher education should be paid for by the government. No student loans. This is the 21st century.
@@JonFrumTheFirst I would assume they mean taxpayer funded. Whenever govt. funded education is discussed, it typically refers to taxpayer funding. However, public school is also taxpayer funded and the graduation rates and education of the ppl has increase since the early 1900s when the graduation rate was 17%. You can also cite Sen. Sanders' bill where it outlined that it would be paid for through Wall Street Transaction taxes. How it is executed varies depending on who you ask, but in general, it is still the policy to shoot for.
Here's another thing: when you give the govt. power in the funding mechanism, if you play your cards right (as Sanders did in his bill), then you can even grant them negotiating power to demand lower costs. Take Canadian Healthcare as an example. Prescription drugs are significantly cheaper there than in the US because the Canadian govt. has the power to negotiate down the prices of essential medications. It would work the same way.
@@JonFrumTheFirst I hate condescending shit like this. Do you really think that people don't know it's on taxpayers? Duh. I don't even agree with subsidizing it like Mark said, but god I just can't stand this same old tired gotcha bullshit about YoU MeAn ThE tAx PayErS???
Quite a number of factors that should be addressed. First off, both the parents and student should have realistic goals and a comprehension of the data you present. Conservatories should have advisors that are truthful in regard to a candidate's ability and chances, if they fail to pass the required material they are dropped. One of the most important needs in the current environment are to set yourself apart from the next person musically and explore different paths, how are colleges addressing this? I have a nephew who went to a small college in Illinois with the intention of being a symphony bass trombonist. I often asked him how much time he was putting in on the tenor trombone so that he would at least have more opportunities to play gigs. He spent zero time, did not even get a teaching certificate and after four years went to work at Walgreens. That is depressing.
Total scam. I went to DePaul University's school of music. While I was very lucky in that I had work as a paid musician and a full ride while an undergrad I felt that many musicians simply should not have been lied to about their talent and the music industry. if I was of mediocre talent I would want to know the truth so I could find another major and have music as a hobby or paid side gig. This was the 90's. Now? DePaul has two orchestras one of which is awful and they are there to pay $$$$$$ so that others can thrive. Only two people out of my school of music became professional musicians. The others? Real Estate Agents or Accountants. It's a scam. Also I was lucky because I was debating Grad school at Juiilard or Manhattan. I went to visit but a conductor I knew told me it was a waste of both money and time so I bailed and never looked back.
In regards to what you said about talent, I would very much like to have a conversation about this if you would be interested in engaging. As an educator, "talent" has very little to do with how successful one is in any field. I think the issue discussed in the video has to do with a system that doesn't encourage development due to such poor job prospects. In my experience, teachers that discuss "talent" really only use that term, subconsciously I admit, to relinquish any responsibility they might have in the education and development of their students. When it comes to those that turned to other careers, assuming that they did so because they weren't good enough is a bit preemptive in my view. If we're going to look at this situation in an objective manner, in my view, we should look at 1) if the system encourages growth, 2) job prospects after graduation, 3) upward mobility prospects among other factors. "Talent" plays into the notion that there are a select few that are worthy to study and that any lack of success either solely or mostly falls on the individual and any mistakes they made. It leaves the system and institutions without any share of the blame even though they, again in my view, are some of the biggest players in the poor prospects.
@@ericpapaclarinet You're kidding, right? You have to have an innate talent for an instrument. Some are better at strings; etc. Thanks for the laugh though. Just told this to a professional musician about to go on tour. We laughed hard. Our Professors told us that you have to be talented while we were in University. No wonder so many kids these days are mental, you are all lying to them and treating them like little fragile puffballs. Give me a break.
P.S. When a teacher sees that a student is talented they normally take them aside and give them free private lessons. This has happened to two friends of mine. So, they do continue their growth but only the talented ones...who work hard.
Or you can attend the Lynn Conservatory of Music, which is tuition free for music students, and study with some of the same faculty who teach at Juilliard, Curtis, etc.
plus the curtis institute of music, which is arguable better than juilliard and offers full ride scholarship to anyone who gets in. the current acceptance rate is 2.4% of applicants, so it’s extremely competitive.
It's not just music. And I say this as someone with a music degree....so many degrees, especially in the humanities, burden students with mountains of debt that they will never be able to get out from under. And years ago, the financial institutions convinced our legislators to give them a guarantee so that people can't declare bankruptcy to get out from under it. They bear no risk for giving out these massive loans, and the poor student is solely on the hook for it. I hate to use the term " useless degrees", because it's great that there are passionate people who care so much about a particular field, but to take on a quarter of a million dollars of debt for a music degree or one in poetry or even art history makes no financial sense, because to odds of getting a job that can pay off that loan is less than 5%. My best friend got his masters and ultimately left the field and retrained in a technical field just to be able to live. He admits he will never in his lifetime finish paying off his loans. He is a debt slave. It seems the only people who can afford to get these degrees are people who come from wealthy families. You are absolutely correct, it is extremely unethical for these institutions to do this to students. They are giving our degrees that are only worth a fraction of the amount they cost. At best, it's a self perpetuating scam that allows the current generation of professors to financially enslave the next generation of professors. Maybe if we put the risks back on the banks making the loans and allowed people to declare bankruptcy after a given period of time, I think you'd see the market quickly adjust to this reality.
As a middle class parent of a student, who wishes to pursue a career in performance, I could not believe how much some of the "top tier" conservatories are charging for their program. Add the hyper-competitive nature of landing a seat in an orchestra, and I have many sleepless nights. Unless you come from old money, or win a spot with a major group, you will need to get creative with other sources of income.
Music schools are something I think there should be far fewer of with a much higher barrier to entry. The thing that is often overlooked (and diluted by the "non brand name" alums in orchestras) is that some folks are just on the track early and will get all the jobs. When I was on the audition circuit, a friend of mine was auditioning many of the same schools. Whereas I had studied mostly in the public schools, he had taken lessons from orchestral professionals for a long time. Unsurprisingly, he was accepted at every school he applied to and now plays in one of the orchestras on your list. Looking back, I see that it's highly unlikely I would have caught up to his track even if I had practiced twice as much as I did in college. Also, it deserves repeating that some schools are a litmus test for talent. In each discipline, there are 2 or 3 schools which disproportionately produce the majority of players on an instrument (Cleveland Institute for Timpanists for example). If you don't get into a litmus test school, chances are, you'll be seeking alternative employment after graduation.
Honestly I try not to watch this video a lot. It sparks a sense of dread and anxiety in me because I am in high school, however I am already determined performance is the path I want to take, I want to play clarinet for the rest of my life, I can see myself becoming an orchestral musician decades beyond this day, and I do not fear the hard work required to succeed in this field. However I always have that lingering thought inside my head, especially when I compare myself to my friends and it burns faster and stronger when watching this video: what if I am not good enough for this career? I always tell myself afterwards “silence! Do not speak nonsense! Now does not determine a decade later. Let’s go practice!” However if that indeed does become true, I do not know how one survives with such a financial burden on their back. But something tells me orchestral or not, if one puts in the hours and dedication, you will create sounds somebody out there will pay you to play for them in front of them. I just hope all the lines can connect, however like you said at the end of the video, everyone who makes it or fails thinks they will be an exception. Why should I be any different? (Sigh) well I know this: further writing won’t get me a job anytime soon (even though I am in high school, I doubt they will hire a high schooler.) time to practice.
Well said. It’s obvious you are wise beyond your years and if you work as hard as you’re planning to and get some breaks, you should do well, whether in a orchestra or elsewhere in the music industry. Good luck to you! My advice to any young player is to not provide an audition committee any reason to not advance you. Most people think an audition is taking place to find the best player (and ultimately that is the hoped-for result); but it is also true in most orchestras that the reason is to eliminate everyone else. Think about it- you have 100 people who prepared the rep and showed up- 20 or so of them are likely adequate for the job. The audition committee has the unenviable job of “weeding out” all but one player. If there are 7 people on that committee, you could have 7 different sets of litmus tests and/or 7 different pet excerpts that the members want to hear a particular interpretation of. It is difficult to impossible to predict all of that. But you should do your level best to not give them low hanging fruit in which to say “Thank You” early. Fundamental issues like intonation, sound, rhythm, dynamics, tempi, note accuracy and an air of confidence are important to everyone who will hear you (with some more important to different committee members than others) and overall musicianship and musically can win the day atop these things if you make it to finals in front of the Music Director. Just try not to provide any reasons to get eliminated- do your best and prepare the perfect audition each time. And don’t freak out if you do make a mistake- just make everything that follows that little mishap sound just amazing. - advice after being on dozens of audition committees in a major orchestra.
My main focus as a musician isn't performance but I'm quite curious as to people's thoughts on if attending a conservatory really makes much difference within the field, especially when job opportunities seem to ride more on auditions than resumes. It seems like one could get quite a lot done just by shelling out a few hundred dollars a month for a top-quality private instructor and putting in a lot of practice hours.
Not exactly. Sure, auditions can be won by anybody. But you see politics start coming into play when graduates of the same school start winning every audition straight. I won't mention anything in particular, but one school has taken the last 8 auditions in the same instrument... and the people already in the orchestra were also alum. Sadly, politics do play a role.
It made more of a difference before auditions throughout the industry became more blind across all rounds and are open to all who apply (in orchestras which no longer screen resumes.) What you suggest is also a very good idea, whether or not one is in music school.
This doesn't change the numbers at all (especially since certain conservatories don't do this), but scholarships are available! I ended up getting a pretty hefty scholarship to the conservatory I attend(ed), which definitely negates a lot of this data. Unfortunately though, I didn't get nearly this amount from the other conservatories I was accepted into. In fact, when I asked one how to get more scholarship money, they responded with "we give everyone the same scholarship amount, so as to level the playing field" which is quite the kick in the pants.
It does beg the question whether a music performance degree is even necessary. The athletic programs exist without athletic degrees…maybe it’s time music goes back to being a kind of training outside the higher education system.
I don't know what to do in my life anymore, at the moment I just play video games all day and don't have a job, I am a classically trained singer and my teacher says I'll be really wasting something if I don't go to a Conservatoire, if I go I wanted to go to one in the country I was born in USA
@@stevenreed5786 Yep thanks bro, my private teacher actually is really encouraging me to go to a Conservatoire and he told me my voice is better now then some people he knows that have graduated from one
Bad economics. Moreover you look and sound (clarinet) like me too. You answered your own questions in the video. For consumer protection there needs to be regulation. The idea of equity and further still bad economics.
Americans need to lobby the government to reinstate the endowment for the arts with as much fervor as the private prison trade does. Every government needs to help out arts organizations. Without the arts, a society declines. They are necessary in good times and in rough times. The reason orchestras aren't paying is that many folded over the last two decades. It is nearly impossible to run on private funding alone. Advocates for the arts need to march down to Washington DC and get serious about getting our funding back.
What boggles my mind is the crushing pressure to "succeed". Sorry but F*ck that noise... no pun intended. Music is fun, and should NOT be infused with stress and anxiety from financial obligations.
Eric, of the schools you listed which have a number of clarinet graduates in US orchestras, what are the statistics if you narrowed it down to clarinet graduates in US orchestras who studied with clarinet professors who are still current faculty?
Hey James, this is a great question! I have seen that people are starting to look at the list and are asking some of the same questions that crossed my mind as I was compiling it. I have a rough idea, but I need to go through the list again and double check some things!
And now we have the growing trend of orchestras failing everyone who auditions so they can just hire players on an as-needed basis instead of giving them a salary.
Hey man, great video! As a conservatory grad myself I found this quite compelling. If you'd be down to come on my channel for a discussion I'd love to schedule something.
Whether the end result is worth the investment is certainly a valid question. A true scam though is a con game that lures you in and provides nothing in return. I’m sure you used that word to get people’s attention (it got mine), but it really doesn’t apply in this case.
I’ve thought about doing a follow up video that talks about this in more detail. A lot of it depends on the instrument they play. For instance, piano graduates seem to have an easier time building studios and teaching lessons than other instruments. Brass and woodwinds might get some students, but typically have to get another job as well. Some move into administrative rolls for various arts organizations, some work in food service jobs (barista, catering, etc) or retail jobs to support themselves while auditioning. Some eventually move into teaching elementary-highschool level band. Though from my class there aren’t many who have gone this route. I think given enough time away from graduation the types of jobs that conservatory graduates end up having becomes very wide and varied and you can find them in nearly every industry and field as people search out careers that are more stable.
@@ParkHouseCreations Look like we are the same,actually almost all of my income is teaching... So how about the voice major?Also make money by teaching student?Look forward to your new work.
Shame on Americans for equating everything with $. I was a multi-gold medalist doctor, but gave that up to chase learning of music through 2 masters and 4 PhDs in North America. I still do not have either a green card or employment. But the journey in learning anything at all about music, even if in my rented small room in the wide, open spaces of the West has been worthwhile.
@@Poreckylife Student visa is the requirement for studying in US and Canada. I still entered on a tourist Visa and travelled down to Bluegrass country. For work, in Vancouver I have held 19 TA positions in 8 semesters; in the US, I was assistant editor of Encyclopedia of Appalachia, Lecturer/Instructor of 7 courses on Blues, Rock, World, and African-American music at three universities; held a pre-emptive fellowship at UT Austin, worked on Fellowships and summer positions in Appalachian music in KY and TN. In b/w, I was the only ever dedicated professor of American vernacular music in India. Rest, "I forgot more, than you'll ever know" (C. Null). :-)
It's mostly ultra wealthy Koreans and Chinese involved in classical music. When there families are worth 8 or 9 figures, all of these figures are meaningless. That's reality.
American conservatories, with the exception of the elite tuition-free schools, are businesses at their core. Europe has a long tradition of high-caliber music institutions where education was prioritized over profit. Unfortunately, America could never follow in this tradition.
All true and unfortunate, however, the government should never get involved in the arts, since it is all subjective. Who gets the funds and how much? You can see where that leads to problems. There is already government funding for the arts to a limited extent and you can see the problems that arise.
Hi all, thank you so much for watching! While this video is the result of 100's of hours of research and work, it still only scratches the surface on this incredibly complicated topic. If you are interested in hearing me explore this topic further, please let me know in the comments! I am definitely open to making more videos. If you think I got something wrong, please let me know (preferably with a source) below this comment. I will list corrections in this comment as they arise. Finally, if you could like, subscribe and share this video, it would really mean a lot! Thanks again for watching, until next time, happy practicing~
Great presentation by the way! I enjoyed seeing something of this quality about what I am about to go to school for. Music is such a strange world, and music education from the conservatory side is incredibly diverse and odd. I'd love to hear more on this subject!
@@charliewootton8748 Thank you for the kind words and for watching! There will definitely be some followup videos at some point in the future!
My advice as a conservatory student in Berlin from America is to just come to the old world. There are more opportunities as a teacher, more orchestras that pay well per square kilometer, and more public interest in classical music. The cost of education is much cheaper too.
What I did!
@@carsonbarnesharp If you can pull it off, by all means do! I’d recommend looking into Leipzig. It’s cheap, historic, beautiful, and it has an extremely musical culture.
From what I've heard Paris is notoriously difficult for ear training and analysis entrance exams. But if you've got those 3 voice Scarlatti ---> cluster chord dictation skill then french might be your only issue. Which would be solved by a 6 month Integration course prior to auditioning.
@@gillianomalyev7082 yeah the I know the two major conservatories are extremely competitive
Another layer to this is the cost of professional quality instruments. For tubists, it’s common to see students spend (or take out loans for) $15,000-$30,000 for a contrabass and a bass tuba.
Very true, the path to becoming a professional musician is filled with additional costs that I don’t cover at all in this video. Thank you for watching!
Tuba player here, was about to say the same thing. Inflationary pressures on prices have also affected this. The very college student grade tuba I bought in 2000 was $3900 then, which would be $6500 in 2022 dollars. That model now goes for about $13,000. I am really not sure how even a serious amateur can enjoy playing classical music anymore given the costs. I can't imagine what it's like for pros who need the best stuff!
laughs in organ - I just pay for my bus ride there
Sadly, one of the biggest problems today is we have too many music students training for too few jobs. One important statement or claim not stated in the video is how severe the competition for the major symphonies really is. New or recent graduates are not competing against their peers, they are competing against seasoned veteran classical musicians that have played in lower tier symphonies for 10 and 15 years looking to move up a notch! With the spread of classical music lovers originating in Europe to the Americas in the early 20th century and then into Asia during the 1970s, and beyond, we have quite simply put in place a system that will never require the skilled output of musicians produced by all the world's conservatories into a professional world of Symphony, Opera, and formal Theatre, all of which struggle to maintain themselves, in today's modern world. The truth is that the love for fine music and art continue to grow because of the small number of people that love it live so long and are outpacing the general and fast paced decline in the interest of these arts in the big picture of the society in general. And as clearly demonstrated above, If the best that the top classical musicians in NYC or San Francisco or Vienna or London can achieve is the equivalent of $120,000, then we must understand there is a serious problem in the world of classical music as a profession. I am a Juilliard grad from the Pre-college division during the 1970s and never attended another music school afterwards. I am so happy I did not. I spent 30+ years working in IT and then in private business and kept music and opera as my love and passion, not my work. The tuition for Juilliard Undergrad degree during my years, $3100 per year. A final thought, I cannot stop thinking how all colleges and universities are really nothing more than machines seeking to maintain their own existence like any other business. All the music conservatories too me seem much larger today with the sizes of their programs, etc... than back in the day when I was a music student. Is it just business today? I know these schools must have many more people employed today that are not into music, etc... Oh... my how the world has changed.
The reason there are too many music students at conservatories is precisely because there are few performance jobs available and the music professors need a good job too.
I am a Juilliard grad, BM 1989, MM 1991. My wife is a Curtis grad, we are both bassoonists, expats, we are currently working together in an orchestra in Spain. My first year at Juilliard, tuition was $6,800 per year… anyway, we’ve been here since 1994. We both did the audition circuit, one of us would often make the finals, not usually both. The last BIG audition we played, we both advanced to the finals, then they cancelled the audition and gave the job to the sub. We have 4 children, none went into music, but 3 are in college. Americans don’t realize this, but as Europeans, we may spend between 800-1000€ a year on tuition costs? Some other countries in the EU, it’s free. You are on the nose, when we started out here we put one salary towards my student loan debt and paid it off quickly. ( I used it to purchase and instrument, bassoons aren’t cheap. Actually that is another “debt” you can talk about). I love my job, wouldn’t change a thing, but … there are so many talented and amazing and players that never get a job…. I do see the level of public education in Europe much higher, there is higher public support too. Most people in the street know what a bassoon is, by name. In Spain, most towns have a “Conservatory” and a municipal band. The conservatory is free, from 8 years through high school age. I feel a strong public support from our community and often meet people in the street with positive comments. Orchestras aren’t seen as such an “elite” thing, as in the US. I’m sorry, there is too much to talk about. My ADHD doesn’t help this… I played a music festival in Germany in 1989, in Berlin we had a sold out concert, outside, in the rain, 20,000 people, many young people. I was stunned.
Thank you for sharing your experience as an expat who moved to Europe! A pianist friend who moved to Europe to study also commented about the strong public support. The idea that most people on the street would know what a bassoon is speaks volumes about the cultural shift in regards to how the music is appreciated. Thank you again for sharing!
Thanks for your post. It worked better than zzzquil. Buenas noches
Wow which city of Spain. I went to the conservatory for 8 years in Granada 🥰
It's all a scam
I was there. Were you the dude always playing the difficult technical exercises at fast tempos on the 4th floor?
This is a video that anyone contemplating a degree in performance needs to see.
Thank you, I really hope it's helpful for aspiring musicians!
Thank you for laying it out so well! As an orchestral player for over 53 years, I have tried to convey the gist of it to my students for a long time. As one of my more famous colleagues once said, it is easier to get elected governor of a state than to get a job as an orchestral tuba (or harp) player (do the math). I also try to alert them to some of the other realities of the audition system: 1) While the purpose of an audition is to eventually find the “best” player for the job, the flip side of that is to eliminate everyone else… and sometimes the litmus tests of the audition committee members can be rather arbitrary. You’ve got to do more than just play “perfectly.” 2) In orchestras that still screen resumes, a top 10 conservatory or school of music on one’s resume can help get you at least invited to the prelims. That said, every orchestra has players who went to “lesser” schools in their ranks. The current trend towards “open calls” is helping to eliminate this bias, which also extends to nods afforded to players from a particular “school” of playing already entrenched in the orchestra. 3) Many orchestras offer courtesy advancement to a small number of candidates already playing in a peer or above orchestra. While this could open up a slot down the food chain (often for a single year), it doesn’t make it any easier to advance past the “cattle call” knowing that those players are already in the next round. That said, in many if not most of the auditions I’ve heard, the pre-advanced player doesn’t end up winning the job- rather players who get high scores for all rounds often do better. 4) Diversity- This is a whole other topic, although related. It is proving very difficult to increase the numbers of Black and Latino(x) musicians, largely because of the low numbers present in our conservatories, SOMs and American orchestras themselves. I’ve seen the playing field helped by generous financial aid provided, including to my own gifted Minority students, three of which are currently in the top schools. With 100 or so audition candidates for one position, it is taking a long time for the numbers of Minority players to increase as a proportion of the audition pool. The quality of music education in many Minority pre-college schools is often lacking, and without help from orchestral training programs and city-wide youth orchestras, the situation could be much worse than it is. As your excellent video shows, it is very, very difficult for any young aspiring artist to land a job in one of our top 37 (or 54) orchestras even with sufficient early training and financial resources. 5) There is a chicken and egg at work here- Conservatories and SOMs need large programs in order to attract sufficient young players to fill their own symphony orchestra(s). Orchestral training and experience are crucial to getting a job. Working on perfecting the same 20 excerpts for 4 yrs is not the same thing. 6) None of this is new in the overall entertainment industry. Broadway shows use a cattle call system to audition singers and dancers and it used to be much more brutal than it is even today. The quality of players out there, taught largely by those of us currently IN orchestras is quite high (although we all know of frequent no-hire situations). If a conservatory education were free, the situation with the numbers would likely be even worse. 7) Have a backup plan if that’s at all possible. Most musicians I know are good at other things besides playing their horns. As a group, we’re smart, well-disciplined and driven, and can carve a niche anywhere, whether within classical music or not. Many symphonic players play a lot of chamber music, teach privately and coach, create masterclasses, compose/arrange, organize and run their own large ensembles, are active in the AFM and/or committees, etc. You can get involved in those activities, whether or not you have an orchestra job. It is a target-rich industry, music! - Michael Moore, Tuba, Atlanta Symphony
Thank you for the kind words and for taking the time to share your thoughts! Your comment highlights so many of the various issues present within the field (many of which I would have struggled to quantify with data), but I appreciate you sharing your perspective as someone who has been able to spend their career dedicated to the art form and industry!
You explained it. But simply put is not a real job and it's a scam
Just finished watching this video. Honestly, I was not surprised, just dismayed.
We have an entire industry dedicated to lying to and preying upon people who are legally allowed to make massive financial decisions, but who almost universally do not have any experience doing so.
Thanks for watching James, there really are some troubling moral and ethical ramifications to how the industry operates.
Truth. I had planned on a performance degree after graduating high school but the crushing debt scared me (even back in the 80's the cost seemed like a lot to me). So I opted for the military. I'm SO glad I spent 20+ years in the Navy bands traveling the world, making an adequate living as a full time musician and then retiring with a pension at 38.
Currently at Navy Band Northwest. Thank you for your service!
Thank you SO much for making this video! For the longest time I thought I was not good enough even after getting a DMA and a CV full of research, performances, and leadership. I have been working so hard for YEARS, and my situation made me think I was still not working hard enough, having enough faith, etc. It is somewhat relieving to see that it has never been my fault. The numbers don’t lie. It comes down to those numbers and statistics. I will never be able to work against them! I wish my professors would’ve been honest about the current state of things in music. It’s a nothing burger. I had a Visiting Assistant Professor of Piano position at a University and realized that the whole advancement game sucks. The majority of the things that count are the things you do outside of your 40-hr load. You constantly need to be serving the community, presenting at conferences for free, performing for free, doing outreach for free… when is it enough!? Talk about a recipe for anxiety, depression, and burnout.
About 20 years ago Juilliard announced that its endowment was large enough to offer free tuition to all its students. It said it was going to do it, but never did.
WoW
Grim reality. Also why I refused to teach anymore at some of the conservatories mentioned, nor privately (exception: Professionals who need my help). A poem for this era:
The fiddler's in the subway
The bugler's in the park
The music schools are vacant
The concert halls are dark
The sad thing with this is that this is how things were for classical musicians in the days right before the Great Depression in the 20th century.
As an aspiring orchestral musician, what you bring up in this video is why I create social media content in the first place. IMO you have to be unhealthily obssessed and detail oriented with music to play at the level you need to for these orhestral gigs. I wouldn't recommend people go to music school unless they receive a substantial scholarship. Most professionals make a good chunk of their income by teaching, where you can make $40-$150+ an hour. Money earned from playing in orchestra is secondary to the joy we have making music.
A friend sent this to me, and after doing three degrees I cannot begin to articulate (ha ha) how true this rings to me. The easiest subscribe I've clicked in recent memory, great video dude.
Hey Rick, I really appreciate the kind words and I am glad that the video resonated with you! And I always enjoy a good pun!
I also think one sad reality that you may want to address, is that in these "top music schools", most of the students aren't really taking on that much exorbitant debt. If there are, they are usually outnumbered. As someone who grew up in the "elite" circles of classical music, I can tell you that most US conservatory kids come from wealthy families, where even after receiving a meager scholarship, their parents are able to afford their remaining exorbitant tuition without financial aid. Just think about how expensive it is alone to afford all the costs of raising a kid to the level required to get into schools like Juilliard, Curtis, Rice, NEC, etc. Classical music has extremely high barriers to entry. I totally agree that US conservatory prices are a scam for the ROI, but as long as there are rich families that can send their kids there, and private student loans allowing just about anyone to take on crazy debt, the conservatories have no incentive to lower tuition. They're businesses first, after all. Kudos to tuition-free places like Colburn, Curtis, and Yale for existing, but again, it's mostly affluent kids who have the resources available to end up there regardless.
This is GREAT! Thank you for posting! BRAVO !! A couple of comments #1. Students should recognize that there is a built-in ethical problem in the set-up of almost all music schools. Faculty are expected to recruit students into their studios. Frequently, recruitment is required in their contracts. IF a faculty member is not successful in recruiting an adequate number of students, that faculty member, by contact, can be denied promotion and/or tenure or terminated before promotion or tenure are considered. Simply put, there is a built-in conflict of interest between the faculty member and the potential student. It is thus potentially to the faculty member's interest to misrepresent possibilities for students' employment , suggesting there are more opportunities for employment than there or or at least avoiding discussing the issue. And yes, in my career, I have known faculty who do this. #2 If a school recruitment officer or administrator does not make a point of directing the potential student to the Department of Education's "Score Card" webpage (that you site) that potential student should be deeply suspicious that the institution does not want the potential student to know that information. In my opinion, it is a sign that the particular institution is operating for the benefit of the institution and not the potential student (and yes, I direct ALL of my students at MTSU to that score card EACH SEMESTER). Finally, again in my opinion, increasingly American institutions of higher learning--not just music schools--are predatory upon their students. All students should enter their college careers suspicious of their institutions' purposes and armed to protect their own interests against the interests of the institutions. Again, these are my personal opinions, but they are based upon over 40 years of work in colleges and universities. -- Mike Linton
I really appreciate you taking the time to write out this comment! My video is of course rooted from the student perspective, but it is so important and invaluable to see comments coming from the faculty/administrator side of things as well!
This is a highly underrated comment and something more high school students should be made aware of
Very interesting content. I went to Juilliard in piano, and have no regrets whatsoever. I’ve served on the faculties of four universities from New York to California. I’m not an orchestral player- more of a soloist with orchestras, so this aspect isn’t on my radar. I will agree with Van Cliburn, who said that the only person who should pursue a career in music is someone who can’t live without it.
I’ve had students over the years who were conflicted about what career path to follow. If anyone has such a conflict, I almost always encourage them to choose the other field. Music is indeed the most competitive field you can be in. And there are never guarantees you will have a career. I’ve known people who went to med school as their backup career. But I started out poor and now live in America’s most expensive city. You can do it, if you keep your dream alive and all options on the table. Do what you love most and the money will come. I’m convinced. I wish everyone luck, and thanks for a fantastic video. It should give any aspiring musician food for thought. My Juilliard degree is gold to me and my diploma hangs on my studio wall. One person said it looks like a doctor’s office!!
I think the idea that you should only go into music if you can't live without it is a sick one. In a social society, such as the ones we see in Europe, you don't to take absurd risks to pursue music. Not everybody gets to go to the fanciest schools, but they have the right to a decent life, contributing to the cultural life of their communities. Society should support the arts. American society does not.
@@returning-to-nature I agree on everything you’ve written here. You’re preaching to the choir! On the other hand, one must remember that in a capitalist country, like the USA, people still need to earn their living. It’s far easier to earn a living with a medical doctor degree, or lawyer, or businessman. In Europe, where the arts are considered a necessary part of living, there is a different attitude. I feel sorry for any American musician who has split interests, and goes into music, and yet can’t earn a decent income.
Bro how good at the piano were you when you got in? Please reply to this comment as politely as possible as my self-esteem is at stake here
@@plaguedoc7727 I already had a Bachelor’s degree, and a pretty large repertoire at that point. It’s one of the most competitive schools in any field. I think their acceptance rate is similar to Harvard- between five and eight percent. They now have pre-screening, which means they hear a video before you’re invited to audition in person. I was told the best way to know if you could get into the school is to talk to a faculty memory and study with them privately first. They will get you into the school if they think it’s a good fit. I didn’t do that, but I know many who did. Good luck to you! PS I’ll add that different instruments have different levels of competitiveness. I think piano and violin are probably the most competitive.
Eric, your work is always so impressive and wonderful. This one however is SO crucial for every clarinetist (and non-clarinetist) out there considering this field! Being a freelancer in NYC, I definitely see the benefits of going to the top schools (especially Juilliard+ MSM), mostly for the networking purpose. However, when I see how much debt they are still paying off after all these years, I'm not so sure. Trying to pay off crazy loans with an average music career is such a crazy task. If any aspiring musicians are reading this, I'd encourage you to consume all the facts as early as possible, because they will help you make some important decisions down the road. Don't turn away from them because they make you uncomfortable! If you really want a long and happy career, you have to figure out how to achieve it, instead of running away from the problems that will surely catch up to you at some point. ALWAYS work on skills/ interests outside of just playing your main instrument. It does not make you a bad clarinetist. We are in unprecendented times in so many ways, and our teachers can only help us to a certain point. You have to listen to your heart, look at the current market and where it's headed, and make decisions upon your predictions.
👏👏👏
Hi Tony, your insight as a musician who spent a long time in NYC is invaluable, thank you for taking the time to comment!
"ALWAYS work on skills/ interests outside of just playing your main instrument. It does not make you a bad clarinetist."
This quote is also so important and should be shouted from the rooftops!
As always, thank you for watching and for the kind words!
Another thing worth mentioning I was seen as super talented and did eventually win an orchestral job. After 10 years of doing so I wanted to move. Orchestral musicians are largely stuck in one job. Most musicians were so unhappy in this orchestra and so many complain in orchestras....I think maybe because we are taught to value talent and ability over who we are as people and how we treat one another....
I am changing careers because I am tired of auditioning and I want more options. Most careers allow people to switch from job to job and there are more options. Musicians get stuck. Paying to take auditions is expensive and we cannot choose where we live. So many times I see where I am auditioning and have no idea how I could live there. Many Musicians start off desperate and then when they get a job realise they do not or cannot stand living where the job is for other reasons. As we get older other things become priority. I could go on.
Thank you for putting this out there, my son had a dream, and because of the odds, he didn’t quite get there. The pandemic made things much worse, many orchestras have closed down and actually reduced the salaries for the permanent musicians. If anything, now things are much worse than you even suggested.
This is the type of content I like to see as someone who did both an undergraduate and master's in music performance (viola) but did NOT go to conservatory. You can still get a wonderful music education and go to a state school and pay a fraction of the price. I also double majored in undergrad so that I would have 1 non-music major as well. Be smart fellow musicians and good luck!!
@George Melas As a trombonist I totally understand that. However, there are many other opportunities outside of the symphonic realm! As a music student, I believe it is necessary to be as well-rounded as possible and study multiple genres and styles. Not sure why so many music students put themselves in boxes…
@George Melas There are some great suggestions in this video: ruclips.net/video/yDjI8iphbhU/видео.html
I am very grateful to have come across this video. It addresses a lot of concerns I had when I was entering my undergraduate studies in August 2018. I just graduated in December from a small liberal arts college and conservatory. Seeing the numbers in this video made me so glad I chose the path that I did. My parents advised me not to take on any debt for college, and I decided to follow their advice to work in the summers instead of attending music festivals. I have been considering a few questions since I've graduated:
1. Is the established "path" to success in music truly the only way to make it? By "path", I mean going to an expensive conservatory, paying for festivals in the summer, and studying with the most popular teachers.
2. Are there ways to mitigate the risks that Eric laid out in the video? This might be done by working in the summers and school year, going to a less expensive college or university, and focusing on a well-rounded education and life like Tony mentioned. After all, if you complete a well-rounded, lower cost music degree without much debt and you choose to work in another field after graduation, did you really waste your education?
3. Assuming that the end goal is to be happy and fulfilled, can a debt-strapped classical musician accomplish this goal, regardless of their level of success in the industry?
For anyone who is considering taking on significant debt for music school, I would encourage you to consider: "is this the only way?" I have met many amazing teachers at mid-tier programs like New Mexico, Memphis, and Ohio State. These teachers give so much of their time and effort to hard-working students, and this kind of education comes at a fraction of the cost of high-level conservatories. Plus, you can explore many fields like scholarship, pedagogy, conducting, and composition, graduating as a well-rounded musician, not just a good performer.
Awesome vid! Finally someone pointing out the cold hard facts of tuition at music schools verses professional income and loans. Thank you Eric!
Thank you for the kind words and watching!
I was a senior and already dealing with depression when the pandemic hit and annihilated the music industry. I was horrified. Lost all my students. I dropped out and went to work for aldi for a few months. Eventually I managed to get into a front end development role a couple years later and I keep the music on the side.
Thanks, excellent video. The author would likely succeed as a highly paid management analyst in any field. Probably best that the issue of prospects for concert soloists was not discussed (even more dire). Today's 'education' costs are definitely skewed.
Thanks for watching and for the kind words Charles!
I think the other big depressing thing about this whole situation is that it limits opportunities in music to only those people who already have the wealth to go to these top schools without taking much or any debt. This is the great tragedy of the 2000s, the defunding of public higher education and the huge tuition costs that essentially cut off easy access to the middle class for anyone whose family can’t easily afford it.
I do think we have to recognize that as clarinetists, we’re in a uniquely awful position (along with the flutists). There are just so many excellent players and so few opportunities in symphonies. When I was considering going into music in the 80s, that was the thing everyone dreams of - getting an orchestral gig. But even then it was almost impossible, there just aren’t enough of them, and it’s worse now. I kind of recognized this and it was a significant factor in my not pursuing music. The thing is, if I had known how many other ways there are to make a living in music performance, perhaps I would not have been deterred. It’s not an easy life of course, but it’s a lot more possible than if you limit yourself to looking only at orchestral openings.
I think as clarinetists, there is so much opportunity to expand the market. Professional clarinet quartets are just not a thing for some reason. Reed quintets are starting to get some traction but there is a huge opportunity there too and that has two clarinets. Because these ensembles aren’t tied down to the hidebound and reactionary symphonic repertoire, there is all kinds of opportunity to commission and create new music. Again - not easy! But possible. I think this is the thing. As in almost all creative fields, the people who are going to be successful are going to figure out new ways to be successful, not follow old paths which are basically worn out by previous generations and where the opportunities have already been taken.
This is excellent. Thank you for posting it/breaking it down. Everyone needs to watch this that is considering majoring in music; and private teachers need to share this with their aspiring students just for FYI.
Thanks for the kind words Meg!
Wow! Every college person looking at a music career ... and their parents .. need to watch this video to get a dose of reality. I majored in computer science (about 30 years ago) and am able have a lot of fun playing clarinet in various groups. Having dreams and passions are great, but the needs to be an honest dialog with college students about the long-term effects of their choices. Numbers ($$$$$$) talk. This applied to ALL MAJORS, not just music. Having 3 kids that have gone through college (2 and 4 year schools), it's pretty sickening at what they are charging these days. Thanks for all the work you've done putting this video together. MUCH APPRECIATED
I am about to go into music. Thankfully, Music education is my major, and I have been hearing in my school search over and over again "you've gotta know how to teach before you will know how to play." I think this honestly reflects the world that the passionate young musicians live in today. Even if you don't get into an orchestra for a long time, you can spend a few years in K12 or as a private lesson teacher. All while still playing and maybe auditioning. For me, I am less interested in the classical orchestra world, (thanks in large part to marching band and Drum corps) and more interested in the directing standpoint of the field. I hope all you musicians, teachers, and performers all find your way around these things!
Great job on this! This topic has been a frequent one for my content, and you laid it out so well. Just subscribed, and looking forward to more of your videos!
Thanks for the kind words and subscribing! I checked out your channel and your content is great, looking forward to digging into it further later!
@@ParkHouseCreations Jason’s book and blog post series “Road Warrior Without an Expense Account” (about the reality of freelance musicians) is well worth reading.
Thank you for this huuuuge research project! Definitely a huge issue and music schools equivocate on this endlessly. Glad to see someone else concerned about this and excited for the future of music training we will build!
Hi Drew, thank you for watching and taking the time to comment! With the unexpected attention this video has received and with all the people sharing their experiences, I am with you! It makes me very hopeful that the system can be improved for future generations!
Great research and great information Eric. This is a really well made video. I'd say much of the performance degree programs prepare students for the performance aspects of being a musician but not the networking or self-promotion aspects. Further, many of the people I knew who graduated with music degrees ended up in careers not in music just because the majority of opportunities out there involve teaching for relatively little pay. I hope people who are looking into the prospects of studying music at a conservatory find this video. (:
Thank you for watching and for the kind words Kalynn!
You make a good point. Many people think that they will be the exception. I think part of this is the fact that when we are in high school back in our regions that we might be considered to be a phenomenon. Places like Curtis, Juilliard, the Paris Conservatory, etc. are literally gathering points for such people. The math is scary because you are not just competing with those people for an orchestra job. You are also competing with people that attended school before and after you as well. Since conditions are so harsh, corruption is rampant. One of the biggest sucker games going is screened auditions. The orchestras ALWAYS know who they want well in advance (or at least have narrowed the pool way down). For example, if your mother walked behind a screen and spoke, you would know that it's your mother without having to see her face, right? Everyone has a "fingerprint." Signals can also be used. I've seen and heard about it all because I've been a member of an audition committee but refused to participate in the corruption (was never asked back).
I decided against going any further than my bachelor's in performance, and I'm glad. I still perform with symphonies regularly, have a steady income with benefits, can get my MBA, and will still be able to do recitals and festivals.
Best decision I ever made.
Great research and presentation. It would be nice if our culture placed more importance on art and music. Especially classical.
I think this vid should be recommended to anyone thinking about and/or currently pursuing a career in orchestral performance. I've recently won a principal clarinet position at a full-time orchestra, and even though I don't owe as much in student loans as the average, and I'm guaranteed pay all 52 weeks, it is still a hell of a mountain to just now start climbing. Just thinking about how exceedingly lucky I got and the painfully rough grind and struggle I had to go through, I don't know if I would recommend this outright gamble to anyone and still have a clean conscience. There are still so many people out there that deserve it just as much and maybe even more than I did that won't have their break or chance at success...it definitely makes you think if we should redefine what "success" and "making it" should look like, given what the cost of entry is. Still, good luck to those trying to defy the odds. Thanks for the hard work that went into this vid
Hey Andres, first of all, congratulations on your recent audition win!! And I couldn’t agree more about needing to redefine what success or “making it” looks like as a community. Thank you for watching!
@@ParkHouseCreations Yeah definitely! I've been looking for more music and clarinet content like this too, been binging your vids man! They're amazing, keep them up!
Sadly, this video only confirms the conclusion I came to back in the late-1980s when I was struggling with the choice to go to conservatory or a traditional college. I chose the latter and had resolved that doing so meant I would not study music, even though that was still an option at the conventional college. It came down to two things: (1) the lack of diversity in the classical world meant I saw no high-profile professional clarinetists who looked like me playing in orchestras (something that has gotten better since then--there was no Anthony McGill back then) and (2) the likelihood of a lifetime of just scraping by financially. Those factors made a career in music unappealing.
Music career opportunities have changed dramatically since then. Streaming and social media platforms have made it much easier for talented performers to publish work and be heard, and to build audiences literally around the world. At the same time, the low barriers to entry means musicians have to fight to gain attention from among all the others doing the same thing.
I would argue that conservatories aren't doing enough to prepare students for the "gig" of "performing" for audiences for streaming platforms and social media, or how to leverage them for career momentum and acceleration. Berklee is a notable exception, but Berklee has always had a more commercial bent.
Would be great to get your take on how most musicians really develop their careers and support themselves financially. Is getting a well-paying role in a symphony still the ultimate goal for aspiring musicians?
This is why I went the music ed route instead of pursuing performance. Music education graduates are basically guaranteed jobs after they graduate, plus they can continue performing if they wish to do so.
Hey Derrick, thank you for your comment and I really appreciate you sharing some of your own background and the conclusions you came to in regards to this topic. You bring up a good point about streaming and social media platforms and I actually do have quite a few thoughts about how these are impacting and might impact the classical music world in the future. I am way behind schedule on many videos, but I think I should add that one to the list anyway.
In regards to your questions at the end, I think they are worthy of another video as well. Thank you for the prompts! My editing process isn't the fastest, but hopefully you see these topics covered in the not too distant future!
This is my son's dream, to be in a wind symphony. Really he was born in the wrong era. He would fit so nicely in a 1940's big band like Benny Goodman or Count Basie. He plays clarinet and we are currently trying to figure out his college route. He doesn't want to teach and doesn't want to be in the military so it's looking like he'll be in that category of screwed unless you're one of the super lucky few. I found it interesting that one of our state schools was on that list of colleges with alumni in top orchestras. He's considering their music program, but also considering majoring in something else and getting a minor in music. Right now he's just hoping he can find a different career path to pay the bills and be able to join a community band or orchestra to play in, because he just wants to play. He also doubles on sax and is learning flute so that will help make him more marketable musically, but we really think he's going to have to do something else to make a living and just make music his hobby on steroids.
@@BabyPurpleBug Im afraid teaching is the only realistic route for your son if we wants to pursue a wind symphony career. Most wind symphonies in the US are school-based or university-based.
@@lflagr Yeah, he knows. It's making it hard for him to decide what to do. I think he just wants to stay in high school forever. LOL
I think one important thing to note is that the students getting in to the top music programs are already the cream of crop in their cohort. And given the number of players in orchestras that graduated from schools like Juilliard as mentioned in your video, are these schools really that much better at preparing students than some of the other schools? If someone is really a top-tier player going into music school they should really consider the cost of attendance for any school they’re accepted into.
Ya, at the end of the day, we definitely need to encourage young musicians to truly consider the economic reality of their potential school choice, instead of just the -oftentimes- blinding artistic aspect of the choice.
I went to an Eastern music school to study violin. I remember auditioning for the Cincinatti Symphony in 1976. There were around 100 applicants. I didn't make it past the preliminaries. What surprises me is the quality of students has increased at music schools, when you would think the opposite would be happening with the scarcity of jobs. I was watching some vids of the jazz ensemble at my alma mater and the quality was extremely high. What do those sax players and drummers plan to do? No doubt many composition students want to do film music like Michael Giacchino who did "The Batman" score so I hope they succeed getting into the industry.
Thank you. That was a very honest approach for something that sweeps students in based on emotion and glamour. I went through a two-year Music Production course in College years ago and was told that their stats for graduate employment were 82%. Only later I was told that if I got a job working a cash register in a music store I was technically “working in the industry.” If Mom and Dad dished out $300,000 for a music education they would do that if they were rich and well-connected, so rich and well-connected that their kid would definitely get a job after graduation. There is also a badge of status by going to these schools - it means Mom & Dad are rich. Today that is played up whereas at one time that was played down. I think to succeed in music you need two things: 1) know important people and 2) have a lot of money... money so you can buy important people to get what you want done. By knowing influential and wealthy people we are going back to the patronage era. But then you can ask when has classical music not had patronage?
You speak the truth. My first degree was in Music Education at a school in Louisiana back in 1980. My first job offer was $7,500 teaching job in southern Louisiana which included teaching girl's PE. I ended up going back to get a Bachelor's in Electronics Technology Engineering. That allowed me to make money to live after about 10 years.
My wife studied French horn w/Mr. Cerminaro at Juilliard & loved it. Most of his students got orchestral jobs. Now, too many players; too few gigs.
Someone should also mention that since demand is so small, the level of corruption is very high. This means that even if you are exceptional you can be perpetually blocked out simply because you weren't in a certain circle. This has happened to me and many others.
The truth is that the pool of potential students would be better off if 80% of music school admissions were eliminated. The best students - the ones most likely to get paying jobs - would still succeed, and the rest would be spared the inevitable failure.
Almost all who are 'best in my school' fail.
Almost all who are 'best in by city' fail.
Almost all who are 'best in my state' fail.
Almost all who are 'best in my conservatory' fail.
There's no mystery to it. A handful of novelists sell most of the books. A handful of pop musicians sell most of the CDs/get most of the streaming system listens.
Everyone else just pays the salaries of teachers/administrators so that the very best can have a conservatory experience.
Party pooper
@@Poreckylife If only the party didn't weigh you down with more debt than you could possibly pay back.
Truth!
I think schools below the bar of Curtis and Juilliard should be taken down. The graduates of other schools and destined to fail.
I think many people who teach in Conservatories have a vested interest in hiding the terrible truth from students. If they discouraged students to study by telling them the reality, the teachers wouldn’t have a job. So they give students praise - tell them they’re very talented, give them scholarships, and create an environment that gives students a false sense of reality. Also, the market has very little demand for classical music - very few people listen to it so there are very few performance opportunities.
This presentation can also be extended to higher education in general, as both the colleges, universities and conservatories fleece their economically ignorant students.
I'm an international student and this is one of the biggest reasons of opting for a Graduate Program to attend any institution in the U. S. It's easier to get a scholarship and there's less worry about loans.
You make many good points. I would add that nobody should take on that amount of debt for an undergraduate degree of any kind. If you cannot afford a school then look elsewhere. There are many state schools that will cost 10% of an elite school. The go to your dream school for grad school. I would also say it's nearly an impossibly that any undergraduate wind player would win a high level orchestra gig straight out of school. It will take many years of doing the audition circuit to accomplish this goal. So definitely have a plan for supporting yourself out of college.
I just kept saying “yep” to everything, haha. Very well done, Eric, I’m sure this will be food for thought for many.
For me, during the years that followed after graduation, I’ve managed to stay musically busy and that’s a direct result of the relationships I made and cultivated at Peabody. Do I wish I didn’t have a small mortgage to pay in student loan debt? 💯 Because I was one of the lucky ones to get no scholarship assistance at all. Is it a great source of stress when I think about it too deeply? Absolutely. So much so, that I FOUND relief when I learned that that debt won’t stop me from doing life things later, like buying a house or whatever else. Certainly won’t make it easy, but still good to know. But sad that I even have to know it.
And I agree with the statement of no one preparing us for the physical, mental, and emotional fortitude it takes to “make it.” But one thing I’ve learned, is everyone’s idea of success is different. It will LOOK different from person to person. And if one doesn’t at least have an idea of what that means for them, it’s easy to get lost; once it’s reached, new benchmarks should be set. At least, that’s what’s worked for me. But it’s a never-ending puzzle of finding musical fulfillment, life balance, and giving ourselves permission to be proud of our work and efforts-no matter the size of the achievement, ESPECIALLY the size-even if it doesn’t match the level of someone else’s. Because that asinine stigma that, if we’re not eating, sleeping, and breathing our craft 24/7, we’re selling out, not serious, or it’s become a “hobby” now, still exists. At the end of the day, it is this: does what I’m doing matter to me, joyfully fulfill me, and make me feel like I’ve made a difference? And if the answer is yes to all of those-to anyone reading this- you’re doing fine. Musically, or otherwise.
Off my soap box, also, look at you 12k views-O 👏🏽 KAY 👏🏽
Taylor, thank you, not only for the kind words, but for sharing your experience and offering hope and encouragement to those who might be reading. You are absolutely right, the stigma that we must all eat, sleep and breathe our craft 24/7 to be taken seriously needs to end.
“At the end of the day, it is this: does what I’m doing matter to me, joyfully fulfill me, and make me feel like I’ve made a difference? And if the answer is yes to all of those-to anyone reading this- you’re doing fine.”
If I could like this a hundred times, I absolutely would!
I’m grateful our paths crossed while at Peabody, let’s catch up soon!
@@ParkHouseCreationsme too 😊♥
One very important factor you forgot to mention is family wealth. I would bet the median family income of students going to these schools is very high.
As is the average IQ in these families.
This video gives a good picture of the problems faced by high level performers at the nations best music schools. Even more of a problem are the countless universities with low level performance programs that have countless performance majors who will NEVER have the skills to win a job. These schools can charge just as much as a top tier conservatory. I did a performance degree at school where there isn’t a single person I’ve ever heard of who went on to win a job in the field. Universities should not be allowing countless young people to get a performance degree when the school itself has zero success getting these majors jobs.
Hi all, You should make another video analizing that , the Music for the First time in Human history, Is FREE ( as an industry)...but is Free for everyone except for us ( the musicians). The Industry beat piracy music, but for a tremendous cost. If the music access is free or nearly free, that means that our product don t have price cost. The globalization , the monopolization of the 2 main plataforms of streaming ( for free ) Spotify and youtube and the fact that you don t know the algoritm that place you in a playlist before offering your product. I have a position in an symphonic orchestra as clarinetist. Great video! Congratulations!
This rings true for opera singers, too. Except we have the scam of YAPs (young artist programs).
Hi Catherine，I'm a opera student，why do you say the YAPs is a scam？😊
Btw, Drew McManus at Adaptistration is a great source for those compensation numbers in case you need that for future videos. He’s a friend, so feel free to tell him that I sent you.
Thank you! I’ll make a note of that, I’m sure it will be helpful in the future! I appreciate you taking the time to pass the source along!
I am certainly in agreement with most of your thoughts, but I'm not really sure that I would call it a "scam." These schools are all trying to do the best that they can at training people to succeed in what they have decided that they want to pursue. They need to have students participating together in order to fulfill all of these goals, and they are trying to pay their professors (and others) a good wage (we could also talk about how difficult it would be to get a clarinet job at one of these institutions, which SHOULD pay them well for being at the top of their game). It's a very complex situation, not the least of it being that Classical Music is dying because of so many other issues related to education and media. Thanks for your thoughtful video.
Thanks for the kind words and taking the time to share your perspective. You are absolutely right that it is an incredibly complex situation and ultimately my video only barely scratches the surface. I do want to do a video on the prospects of getting an academic job in the future, but that will probably be a ways down the road! Thank you for watching!
I graduated from Peabody in 1986...my trumpet teacher was Wayne Cameron...he insisted that all of his students Major in Music Education...I have been teaching in a public school for 35 years...at that time Peabody was not outrageously expensive...with a 1/3 scholarship my parents paid the rest and I graduated debt free...
Great work doing this research! Very valuable!
Thank you!!
As a 70 year old professional musician I can tell you that everything here is true. I have survived by playing musical theater, orchestras (free lance), concertizing, funerals, weddings, receptions…. We are the only first world nation that does not support the arts. In all of Europe, Asia, and even Russia, the arts are supported by the government. Education is usually free and they don’t have to rely on rich people to support the arts. Also, ticket prices are much lower so more people can hear you and there is higher demand. Music conservatories are not a scam. The problem is that the government does not pay for them. They are all independent for-profit institutions and until that changes this America-only problem will only get worse. Higher education should be paid for by the government. No student loans. This is the 21st century.
By the 'government,' you mean the taxpayer, right?
@@JonFrumTheFirst I would assume they mean taxpayer funded. Whenever govt. funded education is discussed, it typically refers to taxpayer funding. However, public school is also taxpayer funded and the graduation rates and education of the ppl has increase since the early 1900s when the graduation rate was 17%. You can also cite Sen. Sanders' bill where it outlined that it would be paid for through Wall Street Transaction taxes. How it is executed varies depending on who you ask, but in general, it is still the policy to shoot for.
Here's another thing: when you give the govt. power in the funding mechanism, if you play your cards right (as Sanders did in his bill), then you can even grant them negotiating power to demand lower costs. Take Canadian Healthcare as an example. Prescription drugs are significantly cheaper there than in the US because the Canadian govt. has the power to negotiate down the prices of essential medications. It would work the same way.
@@JonFrumTheFirst I hate condescending shit like this. Do you really think that people don't know it's on taxpayers? Duh. I don't even agree with subsidizing it like Mark said, but god I just can't stand this same old tired gotcha bullshit about YoU MeAn ThE tAx PayErS???
Great Video! Going to play this for my high school students!
Thanks Gregory! Big fan of your music/content!
Quite a number of factors that should be addressed. First off, both the parents and student should have realistic goals and a comprehension of the data you present. Conservatories should
have advisors that are truthful in regard to a candidate's ability and chances, if they fail to pass the required material they are dropped. One of the most important needs in the current environment
are to set yourself apart from the next person musically and explore different paths, how are colleges addressing this? I have a nephew who went to a small college in Illinois with the intention
of being a symphony bass trombonist. I often asked him how much time he was putting in on the tenor trombone so that he would at least have more opportunities to play gigs. He spent zero time, did not even get a teaching certificate and after four years went to work at Walgreens. That is depressing.
From one Eric to another, 100% agree.
Thank you!
Total scam. I went to DePaul University's school of music. While I was very lucky in that I had work as a paid musician and a full ride while an undergrad I felt that many musicians simply should not have been lied to about their talent and the music industry. if I was of mediocre talent I would want to know the truth so I could find another major and have music as a hobby or paid side gig. This was the 90's. Now? DePaul has two orchestras one of which is awful and they are there to pay $$$$$$ so that others can thrive. Only two people out of my school of music became professional musicians. The others? Real Estate Agents or Accountants. It's a scam. Also I was lucky because I was debating Grad school at Juiilard or Manhattan. I went to visit but a conductor I knew told me it was a waste of both money and time so I bailed and never looked back.
Thank you for watching and commenting! I appreciate you candidly expressing your opinion and sharing your experience!
In regards to what you said about talent, I would very much like to have a conversation about this if you would be interested in engaging. As an educator, "talent" has very little to do with how successful one is in any field. I think the issue discussed in the video has to do with a system that doesn't encourage development due to such poor job prospects. In my experience, teachers that discuss "talent" really only use that term, subconsciously I admit, to relinquish any responsibility they might have in the education and development of their students. When it comes to those that turned to other careers, assuming that they did so because they weren't good enough is a bit preemptive in my view. If we're going to look at this situation in an objective manner, in my view, we should look at 1) if the system encourages growth, 2) job prospects after graduation, 3) upward mobility prospects among other factors. "Talent" plays into the notion that there are a select few that are worthy to study and that any lack of success either solely or mostly falls on the individual and any mistakes they made. It leaves the system and institutions without any share of the blame even though they, again in my view, are some of the biggest players in the poor prospects.
@@ericpapaclarinet I know some who were not seen as that talented and they were successful. You make good points
@@ericpapaclarinet You're kidding, right? You have to have an innate talent for an instrument. Some are better at strings; etc. Thanks for the laugh though. Just told this to a professional musician about to go on tour. We laughed hard. Our Professors told us that you have to be talented while we were in University. No wonder so many kids these days are mental, you are all lying to them and treating them like little fragile puffballs. Give me a break.
P.S. When a teacher sees that a student is talented they normally take them aside and give them free private lessons. This has happened to two friends of mine. So, they do continue their growth but only the talented ones...who work hard.
Or you can attend the Lynn Conservatory of Music, which is tuition free for music students, and study with some of the same faculty who teach at Juilliard, Curtis, etc.
The Colburn School is another tuition-free conservatory. They even pay all room and board and a stipend for expenses.
plus the curtis institute of music, which is arguable better than juilliard and offers full ride scholarship to anyone who gets in. the current acceptance rate is 2.4% of applicants, so it’s extremely competitive.
Thank you from a fellow Peabody clarinet grad!
Thank you for watching!
It's not just music. And I say this as someone with a music degree....so many degrees, especially in the humanities, burden students with mountains of debt that they will never be able to get out from under. And years ago, the financial institutions convinced our legislators to give them a guarantee so that people can't declare bankruptcy to get out from under it. They bear no risk for giving out these massive loans, and the poor student is solely on the hook for it. I hate to use the term " useless degrees", because it's great that there are passionate people who care so much about a particular field, but to take on a quarter of a million dollars of debt for a music degree or one in poetry or even art history makes no financial sense, because to odds of getting a job that can pay off that loan is less than 5%. My best friend got his masters and ultimately left the field and retrained in a technical field just to be able to live. He admits he will never in his lifetime finish paying off his loans. He is a debt slave. It seems the only people who can afford to get these degrees are people who come from wealthy families. You are absolutely correct, it is extremely unethical for these institutions to do this to students. They are giving our degrees that are only worth a fraction of the amount they cost. At best, it's a self perpetuating scam that allows the current generation of professors to financially enslave the next generation of professors. Maybe if we put the risks back on the banks making the loans and allowed people to declare bankruptcy after a given period of time, I think you'd see the market quickly adjust to this reality.
As a middle class parent of a student, who wishes to pursue a career in performance, I could not believe how much some of the "top tier" conservatories are charging for their program. Add the hyper-competitive nature of landing a seat in an orchestra, and I have many sleepless nights. Unless you come from old money, or win a spot with a major group, you will need to get creative with other sources of income.
Music schools are something I think there should be far fewer of with a much higher barrier to entry. The thing that is often overlooked (and diluted by the "non brand name" alums in orchestras) is that some folks are just on the track early and will get all the jobs. When I was on the audition circuit, a friend of mine was auditioning many of the same schools. Whereas I had studied mostly in the public schools, he had taken lessons from orchestral professionals for a long time. Unsurprisingly, he was accepted at every school he applied to and now plays in one of the orchestras on your list. Looking back, I see that it's highly unlikely I would have caught up to his track even if I had practiced twice as much as I did in college.
Also, it deserves repeating that some schools are a litmus test for talent. In each discipline, there are 2 or 3 schools which disproportionately produce the majority of players on an instrument (Cleveland Institute for Timpanists for example). If you don't get into a litmus test school, chances are, you'll be seeking alternative employment after graduation.
Thank you for making this video!
Honestly I try not to watch this video a lot. It sparks a sense of dread and anxiety in me because I am in high school, however I am already determined performance is the path I want to take, I want to play clarinet for the rest of my life, I can see myself becoming an orchestral musician decades beyond this day, and I do not fear the hard work required to succeed in this field. However I always have that lingering thought inside my head, especially when I compare myself to my friends and it burns faster and stronger when watching this video: what if I am not good enough for this career? I always tell myself afterwards “silence! Do not speak nonsense! Now does not determine a decade later. Let’s go practice!” However if that indeed does become true, I do not know how one survives with such a financial burden on their back. But something tells me orchestral or not, if one puts in the hours and dedication, you will create sounds somebody out there will pay you to play for them in front of them. I just hope all the lines can connect, however like you said at the end of the video, everyone who makes it or fails thinks they will be an exception. Why should I be any different? (Sigh) well I know this: further writing won’t get me a job anytime soon (even though I am in high school, I doubt they will hire a high schooler.) time to practice.
Well said. It’s obvious you are wise beyond your years and if you work as hard as you’re planning to and get some breaks, you should do well, whether in a orchestra or elsewhere in the music industry. Good luck to you! My advice to any young player is to not provide an audition committee any reason to not advance you. Most people think an audition is taking place to find the best player (and ultimately that is the hoped-for result); but it is also true in most orchestras that the reason is to eliminate everyone else. Think about it- you have 100 people who prepared the rep and showed up- 20 or so of them are likely adequate for the job. The audition committee has the unenviable job of “weeding out” all but one player. If there are 7 people on that committee, you could have 7 different sets of litmus tests and/or 7 different pet excerpts that the members want to hear a particular interpretation of. It is difficult to impossible to predict all of that. But you should do your level best to not give them low hanging fruit in which to say “Thank You” early. Fundamental issues like intonation, sound, rhythm, dynamics, tempi, note accuracy and an air of confidence are important to everyone who will hear you (with some more important to different committee members than others) and overall musicianship and musically can win the day atop these things if you make it to finals in front of the Music Director. Just try not to provide any reasons to get eliminated- do your best and prepare the perfect audition each time. And don’t freak out if you do make a mistake- just make everything that follows that little mishap sound just amazing. - advice after being on dozens of audition committees in a major orchestra.
My main focus as a musician isn't performance but I'm quite curious as to people's thoughts on if attending a conservatory really makes much difference within the field, especially when job opportunities seem to ride more on auditions than resumes. It seems like one could get quite a lot done just by shelling out a few hundred dollars a month for a top-quality private instructor and putting in a lot of practice hours.
Not exactly. Sure, auditions can be won by anybody. But you see politics start coming into play when graduates of the same school start winning every audition straight. I won't mention anything in particular, but one school has taken the last 8 auditions in the same instrument... and the people already in the orchestra were also alum. Sadly, politics do play a role.
It made more of a difference before auditions throughout the industry became more blind across all rounds and are open to all who apply (in orchestras which no longer screen resumes.) What you suggest is also a very good idea, whether or not one is in music school.
This doesn't change the numbers at all (especially since certain conservatories don't do this), but scholarships are available! I ended up getting a pretty hefty scholarship to the conservatory I attend(ed), which definitely negates a lot of this data. Unfortunately though, I didn't get nearly this amount from the other conservatories I was accepted into. In fact, when I asked one how to get more scholarship money, they responded with "we give everyone the same scholarship amount, so as to level the playing field" which is quite the kick in the pants.
I’ve been at Eastman for three years so far and no regrets. From conservatory students and alumni: WORTH IT!
Thank you for this informative video!
Thank you for watching!
It does beg the question whether a music performance degree is even necessary. The athletic programs exist without athletic degrees…maybe it’s time music goes back to being a kind of training outside the higher education system.
I don't know what to do in my life anymore, at the moment I just play video games all day and don't have a job, I am a classically trained singer and my teacher says I'll be really wasting something if I don't go to a Conservatoire, if I go I wanted to go to one in the country I was born in USA
You've got a great voice. (just heard you on your channel). For God's sake, somehow, just keep singing!
@@stevenreed5786 Yep thanks bro, my private teacher actually is really encouraging me to go to a Conservatoire and he told me my voice is better now then some people he knows that have graduated from one
Saxophonist checking in unable to participate in military bands. Haha! I'm probably screwed.
🙃
Bad economics. Moreover you look and sound (clarinet) like me too. You answered your own questions in the video. For consumer protection there needs to be regulation. The idea of equity and further still bad economics.
Ironically of those clarinets in major orchestras, some likely had full ride scholarships.
Americans need to lobby the government to reinstate the endowment for the arts with as much fervor as the private prison trade does. Every government needs to help out arts organizations. Without the arts, a society declines. They are necessary in good times and in rough times. The reason orchestras aren't paying is that many folded over the last two decades. It is nearly impossible to run on private funding alone. Advocates for the arts need to march down to Washington DC and get serious about getting our funding back.
What boggles my mind is the crushing pressure to "succeed". Sorry but F*ck that noise... no pun intended. Music is fun, and should NOT be infused with stress and anxiety from financial obligations.
Eric, of the schools you listed which have a number of clarinet graduates in US orchestras, what are the statistics if you narrowed it down to clarinet graduates in US orchestras who studied with clarinet professors who are still current faculty?
Hey James, this is a great question! I have seen that people are starting to look at the list and are asking some of the same questions that crossed my mind as I was compiling it. I have a rough idea, but I need to go through the list again and double check some things!
I too wish I could afford top-notch education. But alas, I can't.
ThX! ..for showing this!
Thank you for watching!
BRILLIANT! thank you thank you thank you for this! #lotsofshares
Thank you for watching!!
what was the background music in the first part of the video? from like 0:15 to about 0:55 or so
And now we have the growing trend of orchestras failing everyone who auditions so they can just hire players on an as-needed basis instead of giving them a salary.
damn Yehuda really do be producing orchestral clarinetists though.
Hey man, great video! As a conservatory grad myself I found this quite compelling. If you'd be down to come on my channel for a discussion I'd love to schedule something.
Yo you're famous now!
Alex Danielson!!! No part of me is famous lol. I hope you are doing well!!
The aim of a parent is to be have enough wealth to support a child that wants to do an arts or humanities degree.
Whether the end result is worth the investment is certainly a valid question. A true scam though is a con game that lures you in and provides nothing in return. I’m sure you used that word to get people’s attention (it got mine), but it really doesn’t apply in this case.
I'm a student in Shanghai conservatory of music,so i have a question.What do American music graduate do to living？Teach student or something？
I’ve thought about doing a follow up video that talks about this in more detail. A lot of it depends on the instrument they play. For instance, piano graduates seem to have an easier time building studios and teaching lessons than other instruments. Brass and woodwinds might get some students, but typically have to get another job as well. Some move into administrative rolls for various arts organizations, some work in food service jobs (barista, catering, etc) or retail jobs to support themselves while auditioning. Some eventually move into teaching elementary-highschool level band. Though from my class there aren’t many who have gone this route. I think given enough time away from graduation the types of jobs that conservatory graduates end up having becomes very wide and varied and you can find them in nearly every industry and field as people search out careers that are more stable.
@@ParkHouseCreations Look like we are the same,actually almost all of my income is teaching... So how about the voice major?Also make money by teaching student?Look forward to your new work.
This seems to be a general problem for many majors particularly for those who attend private colleges. I don’t think it’s unique to music at all.
There are a few Facebook pages that would get you many more reads.
Thanks Ken, I just posted the video to a couple of them!
Shame on Americans for equating everything with $. I was a multi-gold medalist doctor, but gave that up to chase learning of music through 2 masters and 4 PhDs in North America. I still do not have either a green card or employment. But the journey in learning anything at all about music, even if in my rented small room in the wide, open spaces of the West has been worthwhile.
Wow so how did you study without green card? And what do you do for work?
@@Poreckylife Student visa is the requirement for studying in US and Canada. I still entered on a tourist Visa and travelled down to Bluegrass country. For work, in Vancouver I have held 19 TA positions in 8 semesters; in the US, I was assistant editor of Encyclopedia of Appalachia, Lecturer/Instructor of 7 courses on Blues, Rock, World, and African-American music at three universities; held a pre-emptive fellowship at UT Austin, worked on Fellowships and summer positions in Appalachian music in KY and TN. In b/w, I was the only ever dedicated professor of American vernacular music in India. Rest, "I forgot more, than you'll ever know" (C. Null). :-)
yes
It's mostly ultra wealthy Koreans and Chinese involved in classical music. When there families are worth 8 or 9 figures, all of these figures are meaningless. That's reality.
This is why America is not the promised land. Look to Europe. E.g.Sibelius Academy
American conservatories, with the exception of the elite tuition-free schools, are businesses at their core. Europe has a long tradition of high-caliber music institutions where education was prioritized over profit. Unfortunately, America could never follow in this tradition.
The answer is 1,000 percent its a scam. They should be sued
All true and unfortunate, however, the government should never get involved in the arts, since it is all subjective. Who gets the funds and how much? You can see where that leads to problems. There is already government funding for the arts to a limited extent and you can see the problems that arise.