Measuring energy expenditure objectively is extremely tricky - if the right technologies become available we'd be very interested in doing some studies like that!
Such a fabulous, talented athlete... Great catches on your analysis! As fast as she is, she could also add a bit more speed/less drag with hips in a more extended position... my opinion!! Great job!
Always such a great content and explanation! I’d like to reach out to Coach Gary Hall Sr. about a swim camp for my two kids. Would it be possible to have a few minutes of your time for a couple of questions before I enroll my teens? Thanks
@@ltdswimmer We'll get on it - maybe we'll do some tests this weekend with our campers! Obviously, the effectiveness of the extra underwater is going to be different for a lot of athletes depending on their backstroke to dolphin kicking velocity ratio! We'll have to figure out some way to test to see if it's worth it on an individual basis 👍
Well, I went back and forth to see if there was a mechanical difference between her back stroke dolphin kick and her fly kick. First impression is that with the fly, there is a bit more hip flex than there is with the back stroke. This would be similar to what happens differently between the back stroke and freestyle flutter kick. If there is more hip flex on the fly dolphin kick, then that would, to me, explain why the advantage that Lochte when doing his underwater kicks after the turn was mechanical and not for any other reason. One thing that she does here, and I have never seen any comments about it on any back stroke video, is that on the finish of the pull, she rotates her palms over and the 'finish' energy goes down to the bottom of the pool, and not back to the wall. In freestyle, any coach would correct this as in 'fingers pointing to the bottom of the pool for the entire stroke/pull'. To me, the finish should end up with palm flat against the thigh rather than down to the bottom of the pool.
There may be a slight difference in hip flexion from back to front. But the reason Lochte would stay on his back is because he (like the vast majority of other swimmers) had a stronger "downkick" when on his front. Because of gravity and how the water vortices are created - almost every swimmer *should be faster on their back. As for the pull, you're right, she does have slight excessive downpress & insweep at the end of her catch - still plenty of room to improve in that regard. We would agree with you, after extending the wrist to maintain the "palms back" catch as long as possible, ideally she'd flex the wrist the finish the pull and end up with the hand right next the the thigh as the thumb exits the water first to start the recovery! Thanks for your input - always fun to see your comments.
@@theraceclub After pondering this for a while, I am left wondering how gravity could apply in the water. In the water, we are pretty much at equilibrium. Any elite athlete, especially the men, they will have a specific gravity slightly more than water, so even with a full lung full of air, they will barely float, or some can even sink. Water pressure all the way around the body will be pretty much equal. Yes, the feet end of the body is slightly heavier than the shoulder end of the body. If gravity does play a role, then when your back is up, the stronger kick, the down/front side kick is the stronger, except for that one woman on that video you did, so I would think that would wipe out any advantage that being on your back would add to the back side kick. If I had the tools to do it, I would do a split screen with her on her back and on her front and some horizontal lines to see just how much difference there is. I think I remember a comment about how she was a bit faster on her side. For sure, when doing my dolphin kick laps, I feel a fair amount of water on my knees/thighs for the front side kick, but not as much as with the flutter kick. When doing back stroke flutter kicks, I can barely feel any water on my heels and calves. My flutter kick # of kicks/length is about 8 to 10 fewer with back stroke flutter kick than with freestyle kick. With my dolphin kicks, on my back is almost double the # of kicks per length, but I am guessing that is some thing mechanical, other than me being 'strange'....
i have studied the biomechanics of hip, knees and ankles of dolphin kick on stomach and back and I cannot find much differences. You don't have the advantage of looking at the velocity curves of both dolphin techniques, which are substantially different. Much more velocity is achieved from the weak side on a swimmers back, than on the down side. We don't see that same advantage on backstroke kick vs flutter kick. We believe it is because the large vortex moving upward from the strong up kick of both feet in dolphin on back mushrooms out and hangs around (because of gravity) and there is more current for the weaker down kick to push against. Gravity does apply in the water. Otherwise, nothing would sink to the bottom (if denser than water). The large vortex moving down when the swimmer is on his stomach just keeps going down (from gravity) and is harder to catch on the weaker up kick.
@@theraceclub Still don't see it. Gravity does not quit when in the water, but what does happen, or maybe the important factor to me is 'specific gravity'. We can't float in air unless we are in a vertical wind tunnel with just under 80 mph of air speed. In water we are at equilibrium, which means we are pretty much suspended with equal pressure on all sides. So, this, to me would mean that gravity will not add to down thrust any more than will our ability to float in water will add to the up thrust. You could conceivably have a stronger down or up kick on either part of the dolphin kick, and no matter if you are on your back or on your tummy. If gravity applies to the formula, then when on your tummy, your down kick should be stronger than your up kick, same as with the theory that being on your back would make your down kick be stronger than your up kick, same logic should apply. I still remember that one woman who had a stronger up kick than down kick on the video you did about Marcus. Does your veolcimeter verify this, as in one being stronger than the other, and are the readings opposite when on your back compared to on your front?
Hello, I’m Hank. I’m an ex-collegiate swimmer and I have a proposition if you’re interested. I’ve spent some time building deep learning models for various applications such as swimming and sports. The model I’m working on tracks the swimmer and their motion, and records the angles of each limb at every frame, stroke timing, count, etc and it can be visualized in real time. The advancements made in technology for swimming are far below those in other sports- made me really happy when I saw your work because it’s phenomenal. However, the issue derives mainly from data scarcity as I’m sure you encounter. I’m interested in applying my learning model with your training data to see if we can build a technology that eliminates expensive hardware and rough estimation. I’ve trained the model with various pro swimmers so when a new video is presented, it visualizes the differences and highlights areas of improvement. Thanks again, Hank
Hey Hank - that's very interesting... glad there are others interested in progressing the technological side of our sport! What would you need from us?
I was just looking for a video of you guys on how to master backstroke and there it is, thanks
It's like we read your mind 😁
This was awesome. Even the top athletes need improvements
Always more to learn - nobody's perfect!
You guys should do longer term studies on this stuff with regards to how much effort it takes for these athletes to sustain their new form.
Measuring energy expenditure objectively is extremely tricky - if the right technologies become available we'd be very interested in doing some studies like that!
Excellent and very useful to try for improvements myself
Keep it up
Such a fabulous, talented athlete... Great catches on your analysis! As fast as she is, she could also add a bit more speed/less drag with hips in a more extended position... my opinion!! Great job!
Thanks for the feedback (& watching) Rich!
Always such a great content and explanation! I’d like to reach out to Coach Gary Hall Sr. about a swim camp for my two kids. Would it be possible to have a few minutes of your time for a couple of questions before I enroll my teens? Thanks
If you have any questions about camps, reach out to our awesome office manager - Macon. She'll have all the answers.
macon@theraceclub.com
@@theraceclub did register my kids for Thanksgiving camp. Can’t wait for that! Thank for posting such innovative content
Amazing content, Thanks.
you are welcome!
@@theraceclub Competitive swimmers are anticipating your take on the new backstroke finish rule.
@@ltdswimmer We'll get on it - maybe we'll do some tests this weekend with our campers! Obviously, the effectiveness of the extra underwater is going to be different for a lot of athletes depending on their backstroke to dolphin kicking velocity ratio! We'll have to figure out some way to test to see if it's worth it on an individual basis 👍
@@theraceclub That’s fantatsic & thank you for responding.
You guys are the real deal
Thanks for the support!
Well, I went back and forth to see if there was a mechanical difference between her back stroke dolphin kick and her fly kick. First impression is that with the fly, there is a bit more hip flex than there is with the back stroke. This would be similar to what happens differently between the back stroke and freestyle flutter kick. If there is more hip flex on the fly dolphin kick, then that would, to me, explain why the advantage that Lochte when doing his underwater kicks after the turn was mechanical and not for any other reason.
One thing that she does here, and I have never seen any comments about it on any back stroke video, is that on the finish of the pull, she rotates her palms over and the 'finish' energy goes down to the bottom of the pool, and not back to the wall. In freestyle, any coach would correct this as in 'fingers pointing to the bottom of the pool for the entire stroke/pull'. To me, the finish should end up with palm flat against the thigh rather than down to the bottom of the pool.
There may be a slight difference in hip flexion from back to front. But the reason Lochte would stay on his back is because he (like the vast majority of other swimmers) had a stronger "downkick" when on his front. Because of gravity and how the water vortices are created - almost every swimmer *should be faster on their back. As for the pull, you're right, she does have slight excessive downpress & insweep at the end of her catch - still plenty of room to improve in that regard. We would agree with you, after extending the wrist to maintain the "palms back" catch as long as possible, ideally she'd flex the wrist the finish the pull and end up with the hand right next the the thigh as the thumb exits the water first to start the recovery! Thanks for your input - always fun to see your comments.
@@theraceclub After pondering this for a while, I am left wondering how gravity could apply in the water. In the water, we are pretty much at equilibrium. Any elite athlete, especially the men, they will have a specific gravity slightly more than water, so even with a full lung full of air, they will barely float, or some can even sink. Water pressure all the way around the body will be pretty much equal. Yes, the feet end of the body is slightly heavier than the shoulder end of the body. If gravity does play a role, then when your back is up, the stronger kick, the down/front side kick is the stronger, except for that one woman on that video you did, so I would think that would wipe out any advantage that being on your back would add to the back side kick. If I had the tools to do it, I would do a split screen with her on her back and on her front and some horizontal lines to see just how much difference there is. I think I remember a comment about how she was a bit faster on her side. For sure, when doing my dolphin kick laps, I feel a fair amount of water on my knees/thighs for the front side kick, but not as much as with the flutter kick. When doing back stroke flutter kicks, I can barely feel any water on my heels and calves. My flutter kick # of kicks/length is about 8 to 10 fewer with back stroke flutter kick than with freestyle kick. With my dolphin kicks, on my back is almost double the # of kicks per length, but I am guessing that is some thing mechanical, other than me being 'strange'....
i have studied the biomechanics of hip, knees and ankles of dolphin kick on stomach and back and I cannot find much differences. You don't have the advantage of looking at the velocity curves of both dolphin techniques, which are substantially different. Much more velocity is achieved from the weak side on a swimmers back, than on the down side. We don't see that same advantage on backstroke kick vs flutter kick. We believe it is because the large vortex moving upward from the strong up kick of both feet in dolphin on back mushrooms out and hangs around (because of gravity) and there is more current for the weaker down kick to push against. Gravity does apply in the water. Otherwise, nothing would sink to the bottom (if denser than water). The large vortex moving down when the swimmer is on his stomach just keeps going down (from gravity) and is harder to catch on the weaker up kick.
@@theraceclub Still don't see it. Gravity does not quit when in the water, but what does happen, or maybe the important factor to me is 'specific gravity'. We can't float in air unless we are in a vertical wind tunnel with just under 80 mph of air speed. In water we are at equilibrium, which means we are pretty much suspended with equal pressure on all sides. So, this, to me would mean that gravity will not add to down thrust any more than will our ability to float in water will add to the up thrust. You could conceivably have a stronger down or up kick on either part of the dolphin kick, and no matter if you are on your back or on your tummy. If gravity applies to the formula, then when on your tummy, your down kick should be stronger than your up kick, same as with the theory that being on your back would make your down kick be stronger than your up kick, same logic should apply. I still remember that one woman who had a stronger up kick than down kick on the video you did about Marcus. Does your veolcimeter verify this, as in one being stronger than the other, and are the readings opposite when on your back compared to on your front?
Hello, I’m Hank. I’m an ex-collegiate swimmer and I have a proposition if you’re interested. I’ve spent some time building deep learning models for various applications such as swimming and sports. The model I’m working on tracks the swimmer and their motion, and records the angles of each limb at every frame, stroke timing, count, etc and it can be visualized in real time.
The advancements made in technology for swimming are far below those in other sports- made me really happy when I saw your work because it’s phenomenal. However, the issue derives mainly from data scarcity as I’m sure you encounter. I’m interested in applying my learning model with your training data to see if we can build a technology that eliminates expensive hardware and rough estimation. I’ve trained the model with various pro swimmers so when a new video is presented, it visualizes the differences and highlights areas of improvement. Thanks again,
Hank
Hey Hank - that's very interesting... glad there are others interested in progressing the technological side of our sport! What would you need from us?
👍👍💪
😝
what people don't notice is her "bizarre looking" feet. they are like built in fins. watch the video and study the feet.
She's got some freaky ankle plantarflexion! Essentially a requirement to being that good at dolphin kicking!
I can do a 25m pool under water in 14s
Pretty good! Maggie does it in about 11 + seconds.