Trash 80 to Treasure | TRS-80 Restoration Ep2.
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
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Part 1 - Meet the TRS80: • Trash 80 to Treasure |...
Part 2 - Diagnosing the Fault: • Trash 80 to Treasure |...
Part 3 - Patrons Early Access
● Description
The Radioshack TRS80 Model 1 restoration continues today as we diagnose the problem and try to repair it. Can we get a working TRS80 at the end of it? Let's find out.
● Music
Retro Show - Timm Richter
Bet On It - Silent Partner
Trapped - Quincas Moreira
Liberation - Asher Fulero
Miles Beyond - Quincas Moreira
Easy Sunday - Bad Snacks
This episode brought to you by the keys U, N and 4.
and the sound "clack"
RetroManCave Absolutely! You're right, that keyboard has a very satisfying sound to it.
That clacking reminded me of a machine from my childhood.. the keyboard sounded soooo gooood.
not working keys are very UN4tunate
Love your videos, watch every one! Treat yourself to some soldering braid that actually works, a good brand is Servisol soldamop 2.5mm x 10M "no-clean". Worth every penny, pretty much no more solder sucking with decent solder braid/wick. Thanks for top notch videos.
Congratulations on getting it up and running. The sound of the TRS-80 keyboard is the sound of my childhood. It's very distinctive and made typing in those long long basic programs much easier!
I really like watching restoration videos of old computers along with hearing a really nice background song chosen for these kinds of videos. Great video as always, Neil! 👍🏽
You're doing the Lord's work. Thank You!
Here he is, The man with the little brush!
Good job on that soldering, looked intricate.
Very satisfying as always, beardy man. A suggestion: Instead of 3D printing, use Hula Hoops.
Three cheers for the beardy bloke at the table.
Who ironically wasn't at the table, for the final segment.
Love the analogue-synth sounding bits in the soundtrack on this.... it takes me right back to when we were all crazy for the future... future... future.
I am LOVING this restoration. It's bringing back memories of computing on this thing, and seeing the internals is a treat. I think my father still has his Model I in storage. I might have to 'acquire' it.
Your skills are amazing! If I had a third of your skills I'd be happy. I have a beeb that needs those skills
Enjoyed these type of vids. Thanks for uploading.
interesting how the ribbon cable design is similar to what was used in the game gear a decade later, they made the connections thinner but it still attached the same way (and is just as fragile and crappy)
This was another awesome episode but I can't explain why the trash to treasure series is so entertaining.... They just are, i mean i'm unlikely to ever own a TRS-80 and have no yearning to acquire 1 to repair.... my zx +2, C64 and Amiga 500 & 600 are more than enough to keep me busy + my 23 video game consoles with approximately 2000 physical copy games, you could argue ive got better things to do, yet i'm still here basically watching a guy my age bringing an old computer that i'd never heard of, back to life!
God if I could get that same clack with my modern keyboard...
I love the way you present these restorations. It's so calm and relaxing to watch these, even when things don't work right away. For someone who works in IT all day, watching these is a good reminder for the soul to keep calm when things don't work.
It's the music, I think...
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree! The calm, laid-back pacing of the videos is extremely therapeutic, as is Neil’s softly spoken commentary.
Making good progress with this project :)
Slow and steady Cat Lady, slow and steady
Interesting conclusion seeing as I am married.
Play nice Pumpkin
Pumpkin well at least my cats will mourn me, some people do not even have this 🙄
Often to remove old solder, you want to first apply new solder. It seems counter intuitive, but it has to do with heat transfer stuff, and the old solder tends to suck. It does work, I had to do that for fixing my TRS-80 last month
It's a good tip amd I often do this but on this machine the flux seemed to work well on its own foe the most part
and use nice juicy lead based solder(/BigClive)
Scott Traynor lead solder heads really do love their lead solder! I know many who swear by it
RetroManCave
Always a good vid, but I do have one suggestion - Desolderring Station. It will save your life. ;)
I have the Duratool station. I think it's the ZD-915 model? Made by Zhongdi.
EEVblog Dave did a good review of one.
It would have removed those keyboard ribbons within about 4 minutes, vs 20-30, and will actually help protect the pads, as it's much quicker. It would have removed almost all the solder from the vias in one swoop, too. ;)
The Duratool station was maybe a tad pricey at around £70 from Farnell, but it's a Godsend when I do need it.
There are some "gun" style Hakko clones available, but I've never tried one personally, so can't vouch for them.
Always worth adding flux to most solder braid, btw, as they never seem to have enough (or any) in.
I pretty much only ever use solder braid for removing bridges from SMD legs now. Duratool station for all through-hole desoldering.
RetroManCave
Around the 21-minute mark. I think even "sceptical Dave" was impressed. lol
ruclips.net/video/Ft50m8UU5WQ/видео.html
Soup nazi probably owned this TRS-80
He was constantly typing
N-o soup 4 U
N-o soup 4 U
N-o soup 4 U
Comment of the year
You could just make those little spacers from plastic tubing.
I'm guilty of not stating it more frequently, but RetroMan's smooth voice and quality content are always a pleasure to watch. Great video!
I grew up dreaming about owning a MSX computer especially the models Expert and Hot-Bit (for the Brazilian market). For my frustration that never happened. Watching your videos brings me an indescribable and priceless feeling. Today I have access to powerful computers but the feeling is no longer present. Watching your show is really like traveling back in time. I just love it. Thanks.
Another wonderful video! I wonder if I could get a keyboard like that for my editing machine?
Stuff We Play I did some quick googling, and apparently the switches are Alps SKCC Cream. They're old, though, of course, and all I saw was that they were used on some vintage computers, and in a keyboard for S-100 machines. Maybe you could find one with similar specs?
@Stuff We Play - IBM Pingmaster has similar Alps SKCC Green and is compatible with PC and fully programable with convertor - meci.com/ibm-5954339-japanese-keyboard-japanese-letter-typing.html
Nice neat soldering particularly on the keyboard ribbon cable. Enjoying this series even as a BBC model B man. The TRS80 certainly has its place in the pantheon of those things we used to call Microcomputers and I'm looking forward to the episode when you see what you can get done with such a machine.
Thank you Brian!
Great work and another great video, but yes that keyboard sounds fantastic. When coding and you're getting a clacky sound and good feedback (rather than a spongy mess of a keyboard) you feel like you're accomplishing something as you hit those keys!
how can anyone give these videos a thumbs down, 7 people, really! behave
Don't you have a hot air station? That might have helped with the ribbon removal.
Great work though! Can't wait for the next episode!
I do indeed, definitely an option but I was trying to be extra cautious and felt I had a little more control with the iron. Slow and steady wins the race :)
RetroManCave I always felt safer with the air haha. Low temp, small nozzle. Then just tug the pins out slow one by one.
Project Geek 🖒whatever works best for you. Ps... I've almost run out of the maple you sent! So so good on EVERYTHING
I walked by a local vendor today selling some, I'll ship you more. :)
Project Geek hehe I'll have to send the equivalent from the UK. A tin of treacle?
Good channel, great content. I like it 😀
Thank you sir
I love the Trash to Treasure series. I described them to a friend as following this format:
Part 1: Here's a thing, here's some information about the thing. Is the thing stuffed? How stuffed is it?
Part 2: Beyond how stuffed is it, in precisely which way is it stuffed? Let's find out!
Part 3: Sometimes included in Part 2 for less-stuffed machines, let's fix how stuffed it is!
Part 4 (or 3): Now we return it to its former glory, and make it look and work as new.
Unlike doing a single long video, it really helps with jumping into specific parts for reference.
I am astonished that you haven't invested in a proper de-soldering tool for all the re-work you do, highly recommended.
That said, even thought I have a great de-soldering tool, sometimes after removing pins and leads, rather than move to the rework bench, I just heat the solder pad and poke in a toothpick or cocktail stick in the hole to clear it.
Keep the stick dead vertical to avoid breaking the tip off in the hole and it works quickly and reliably for hundreds of holes, and you can afford plenty of spares! :-)
I hope this tip comes in handy.
It sure does thank you Paul
Great tip, I'll have to remember that one (I sometimes blow the last film of stubborn molten solder out, but that can get a bit messy!)
I just bought myself one of the new Hakko FR301-03 desoldering tools. Christened it by replacing the caps on an old ColecoVision and it was SO much easier than the solder sucker/braid that I used before (i.e. the same method you use in the video). I highly recommend this tool - it would have saved you an enormous amount of time desoldering those keyboard connector pins.
Luckily no creepy crawlies this time.
Be careful rubbing wick across a board. Thats a sure fire way to rip off pads. Also adding some fresh solder before using the solder sucker can help a lot. Seems counter intuitive but it works.
What a relaxing way to end the day. Thanks, Cave Man!
7:08 Is that Polish soldering paste I see?
I have the same one, didn't know you could buy it in the UK.
Trash-80! Love it!
I'm actually getting back into trying to program for the video chipset. The Motorola 6847. It was very basic but it actually had some page flipping modes and a few colours. I'm surprised anybody did anything of note on it. So limited but still pretty good for the time!
My first computer was a castoff Sinclar Z80 and the 2nd was a CoCo 2. :)
Anxious to see part 3 of this series. As a Tandy SE Region Computer Sales Manager in the 70s I am particularly interested to see this one working again! :-) Cheers. S
Filming is nearly complete, pt3 coming next week. Thank you
Alright!!!
Been waiting for part 2 to be loaded up Neil.
Hold on, I need the popcorn and soda pop to watch this. I already know it will be good. 8^)
Anthony..
Make yourself comfortable buddy :D
Yeah, pop or iced coffee for me. This one turned out to be an iced coffee episode. :) Looking forward to the next one!
I got loads of switches looks the same as the tatung Einstein ones
if the keyboard connector pins line up above the pins on the mobo, would it make any sense to just use pins on the top of the mobo, with sockets on the underside of the keyboard?
edit: or rather, the other way around, given the keyboard's PCB is one sided.
They don't quite line up but you could try it that way with a short cable. I'm pleased to say it all now fits in the case which I'll show in the next part
Love this video! I like how well you describe the debugging process! Also your game display in the background looks great. Nice job!
That's very kind thank you
Another enjoyable episode - I concur re: getting a vacuum pump desoldering tool, would've made short work of removing the ribbon cable with (virtually) no fear of lifting traces. The sound of that keyboard was a nostalgia trip for me, some of my first experiences using a computer were on a TRS-80 , at the age of 11 or 12 - and that sound is oddly familiar all these years later.
you are just pure class sir. excellent.
Cannot see that I already mentioned it here. But did you say "Zed 80"? In my opinion it should be pronouned "Zee 80" because it's an American (who pronouce the Z as "Zee") brand name. Likewise Americans shouldn't say "Zee Ex Spectrum" when refering to a ZX Spectrum.
Great video, as always. :-)
Two common problems with Model Is were the silver solder used for the edge connectors (they'd corrode quickly), and keybounce.
IIRC the lowercase kit may have improved the keybounce but there was a setting in NEWDOS/80 for it I believe.
Trash to treasure episode... the peak of the week :D
I've just bought a TRS-80 and cassette deck untested for £32 I'm debating selling it as it or buying a power supply and testing it and restore it.
Another great video - not sure if you ever saw my zx81 link on twitter, the auction has probably finished now, but would have loved to see you assemble one of those. Anyway, as always, really enjoying your videos - keep up the great work and I look forward to part 3 :)
Just took apart one of the TRS-80 Model 1's that I just pulled out to look at and I found a couple of upgrades, that I would like you to look at, and let me know what you think about them. One looks like a CPU upgrade board, but uses what looks like a standard Z80 CPU, the other upgrade is on the back of the board, and I am not sure what it is used for, and the thrid upgrade, looks like the lower case upgrade, that you found on your board.
drive.google.com/open?id=1REODuS_KxAkfsfblhoEB0CX4SxBYx7iw
The only game I've ever played on the TRS-80 was Dungeons of Daggorath. I don't remember how many hours I spent playing this game.
Where is EP 3? For the love of all things 8 bit please. hahaha. Can't wait to see it. Amazing series so far, like always so what am I saying. Keep it up man, love your works.
Your 12v on the RAM chips (4116) was 9.5v. You need to check the 12v Regulator. And it's easier to cut sections out of rubber tubing for the spacers, than 3D printing them. If you are looking to repaint the case, the closest color is Mercedes Silver.
Alps switches are generally the best you can buy. If you haven't looked into it I highly recommend looking for something that uses Alps SKCM Blue switches. Or just get a clicky Matias board.
Only just discovered your videos on the TRS-80. I have a Model I, but my keyboard doesn't look like that underneath. I assume this is an after market keyboard? Early Model I keyboards suffered from a problem known as "keybounce", where one strike of the key would result in multiple characters on the screen. I have read that there were replacement keyboards available.
Good solder job.
My method for de-soldering a ribbon cable is that I'll swamp all pins with solder then I'll apply heat continuously along all the pins while tearing the ribbon off the PCB. When I'm done, I'll clean the excess solder on pads either using gravity or a solder pump.
That solder wick looked pretty "dry", it might well benefit from a bit of liquid flux from a flux pen on it. Also - you might find it easier to de-solder if you apply some fresh leaded solder to the joint. This tends to make it flow better when you suck it out. If you can, once the solder is liquid, just move your iron to the edge of the pad to keep it molten, and try to place the sucker tube entirely over the pin / hole, this ensures the air is sucked through the hole, and not around the edge of the joint.
Great Video! I love the trash to treasures!
If you need anything 3d printing, I can print rigid and fixable materials as well as design parts, I don't mind donating to the crusade!
I was so pleasesed I guest right about the RAM. Great videos
Right on the money sir. Please comment on all future videos 😃
I call this a CoCo and consider a TRS-80 the larger system. I bought a Color Computer 2 in 1986 with my own money when I was 10. It was a nice machine and I did a good bit of basic programming on it.
My TRS-80 had the graphics expansion board. It allowed me to define my own graphics with ease.
Buckling spring keys are the best, for work I use a Unicomp (reproduction IBM Model m)
I love how people are circling back around to loving mechanical keyboard sounds after we spent decades trying to soften the godawful clatter they make.
Great episode neil.. now you got me waiting for episode 3. Excellent as always ..... Kim 😀
Makes sense it uses alps SKCC switches. Too bad they don't make them anymore.
At 15:31 in the video you can see the underside of the board.
There looks to be a single wire soldered to two points.
Is this a factory fix required for all Revision G boards?
i have a model 3, after turning it on i got most of the correct text, then the rest of the screen was backslashes, tried some things i found online like changing the cpu, turns out it was bad but still had that issue, so then once i found out where the character rom was i reflowed the joints on it, now it works, and only key the didnt was the #9 on the numeral keypad, i reflowed those joints to and that also now works. but disk drives wont read, so i have a new chip on the way for the floppy drive controller. but those ribbon cables do suck, i had a couple i had to change and of course they were not the same but i was able to make them work.
Informative, inspirational and very relaxing to watch - fantastic
I don't know if you removed the KB cable from both the KB and the mobo to show the effect of no KB fitted but if you left the cable on the mobo it may have picked up noise imitating key presses.
Ah Microsoft midtown madness, the hours me and my buddies wasted on cops and robbers. Happy days! 😊
You need a better solder sucker my friend. A good solder sucker would have made that job much, much easier.
You can start testing the cassette interface, many hundreds of TRS-80 software programs on cassette.
Onya 'Beardy Bkloke' from Australia. Love this stuff!
Love these videos. Makes me want to get my soldering iron out and work on my 7800 😀
A proper vacum desodering gun is a god send. One you are less likely to damage the board you are trying to extract components from. Two it makes the proccess a lot faster, three it can make desoldering a stubbon component a breeze. Four you can desolder multilayer boards.
The hand pumps are only really any good for singal sisded boards. Sometimes you can get them to work on a dual layer board, but a multilayer board & you are in for a fustrating time. I got mine when restoring my IBM 5150 as the standard methods were damaging the mobo which are really rear & kind of pricy these days.
Thanks for watching. You'll see a vacuum desoldering gun used in the latest A1500 video, I finally got one thanks to the help of my Patrons and it's great to work with for all the reasons you mention.
I don't know if it would work with that type of key, but on occasion when nothing else has worked I've drilled tiny holes in the switch's plastic housing to get the contact cleaning in, and it's worked like a charm! I've done this with great results on sealed potentiometers too. You've got to be careful obviously though because if you get any plastic shavings inside from drilling that of course will be an issue. If you're worried about leaving the hole open a drop of glue or piece of tape fixes that.
If you're constantly working on electronics I can't highly recommend enough getting a professional desolder gun, they're not cheap at $200+ for a good one but they make life sooooo much easier, you can even strip boards bare to clean corrosion and such in extreme cases, I once did that with a rare arcade PCB that apparently some kid decided to treat as a painting canvas and after a bit of work you'd never know now.
Thanks for the tips Andrew. Yes I really think it's time to invest, the time saved will be worth the money. Any models you recommend?
I have to take issue with your desire to always recap anything. Curious Marc did a video lately about why that's often unnecessary and can even cause more problems, even with capacitors from things much, much older than yours. Yes if they're bulging go for it, but if you test their capacitance and there's nothing wrong with them, really, don't bother.
It's a good point, I don't do it with everything, the CPC6128 for example was in good order and has a good reputation, the Amiga CD32 on the other hand is known for bad caps so we recapped that, we can talk about this in ep3 and consider if it needs doing fully, partially or not at all. Good idea thank you
Does the CD32 have surface-mount electrolytic caps like the A1200 (and many models of Apple Mac)? They always leak and definitely need replacing. The ceramic and small electrolytic caps, like most of the ones on this TRS-80, seem to last forever, but the large electrolytics might need checking.
Another sort of capacitor I've had consistent trouble with is tantalums - they tend to go short-circuit, making the machine appear dead due to a shorted power supply rail, or they explode in a massive shower of sparks (like I had with a PC-AT serial port card).
Then there are the RIFA mains smoothing capacitors, which are a thing entirely to themselves!
But testing a capacitor in circuit is not the easiest thing to do, apart from, for complete failure. I think when in doubt, replace.
Have you ever come across the TRS80 clone called the Video Genie ?
I have some software labelled "for the video genie system" but I don't have a machine, I also have a French TRS clone I'd like to cover on the channel some time. TRS clones seems to be a pretty big topic. Have you used one yourself?
RetroManCave yes i have used a video genie as a teenager, i worked in a computer shop that sold them... that was in 1981 ...
I havent seen one since
I have a TRS-80 Model I clone called an LNW-80. I love it!
Ooh - what Oscilloscope are you using?
That's a Hantek ids1070a
That looks like it'd work with one of those Pine64's in the LCD case, if it supports Android! I might have to get one for my ODroid C2 - always needed a scope...
Kai Robinson oh yeah! I also use it with my ipad. Very flexible
The music and shots in the intro for this video remind me of the beginning of a How It's Made episode.
Was looking forward to the continuation of this series! Edit: the keyboard does sound nice; does it feel nice, too?
It does feel very satisfying to type on
RetroManCave Heh, nice! I figured it probably did
I love the British Airways In Flight Music you provided! Very relaxing! 😀🙂🙂
Please return your seat to the upright position and fold away your tray
Thank you Neil.
I personally believe you would do good making a couple of pounds making DVD's of your works regarding your Nerd Cave materials bro. I mean... the videos are finely detailed, reliable sourcing , a video commentator with a great personality, and a fella with a calm manner to make any amature feel like a pro after seeing your works. 8^)
I wholeheartedly feel it would be a success bro . Think of the awesome possibilities. 8^)
Anthony..
Anthony you've just been promoted to my PR and DVD distribution manager :D Although I'm not sure people buy DVDs much now. My videos are being broadcast on Swedish public access TV though so it's getting out to some intetesting places
When this computer hits 88 Mhz clock, you're going to see some serious shit.
Nice video , well made and well narrated, waiting for part 3 now...
You should really invest in a desoldering station like ZD-915, this hand vacuum pumps are terrible... and you should also buy a BC2 tip for your soldering iron.
Thanks for the tip...tip. I'm hoping to afford a better desoldering station in the future. For this particular project it's a little slow going but it does the job without damage to the board which is the important thing, I have patience.
Hahahaha. Well I'm honored kind sir. 86)
But personally, I think it would help expand you even more Neil. I mean you already have a whopping 49,000 subs and counting and seeing you have a great fan base, I think you would be certain you have sales for sure....Even from me kind sir. 8^)
Anthony..
I must say that I am deeply impressed on your level of patience and craftsmanship in handling that manual solder sucker. Until now they have always seemed completely useless to me. Although I will probably still be using my desoldering iron in the future... simply to prevent any further hair loss.
What do you think happend to my hair :)
And now the u key is the best working key of the whole keyboard :-)
Hello. New to the cave. Really enjoyed the careful, deliberate, and methodical pace you go about with the troubleshooting and repair. Thank you for taking your time and explaining steps as you go along. Looking forward to the upcoming episodes and will start working on viewing your earlier episodes.
Thank you for taking the time to watch them James I appreciate it.
As always, great video. Thank you.
Less explaining, more restoration please.
Your videos are very professional though... remind me of some BBC documentary style thing.
Thank you
Another fun episode, very informative.
My first computer. I must dig it out of the loft one day
Did you ever find out which RAM chip was the issue, and if maybe just reseating the old chips back in would work?
Yes indeed the 4th one, when I swapped them out to test I put the original one back in, so I was only ever swapping out 1 RAM chip at a time, and I did try reseating them first
What logic probe/scope are you using there?
I've gotta say, why 3d print a part, which can be cut out of siliconerubber or plastic tube, which will last longer?
I think I mention rubber tube in the video. Perfectly valid, I'd never 3D printed anything so this simple part seemed like a nice place to start. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the video.
This was great. Thanks!
Thank you for watching
I understand you wanted to fix the electrical problems with the keyboard, but why didn't you use the time to clean each key ?
This is part of a series, in this episode I wanted to get to a working state, the next episode will involve a very deep clean. You can check out my other restorations to get an idea of the process
Do you have a fume hood set up and/or wear a respirator when doing your soldering work? Is it needed?
I have an extractor fan in the ceiling above me but not a hood. It's never good to inhale solder fumes so try to keep the area well ventilated, safety first
I appreciate how mellow your channel is.
Another excellent video and more sterling work from one of the genuinely great channels on RUclips!
Thanks Richard