I want to express my heartfelt thanks to Michelle for having me on her podcast and to all who took the time to listen and contribute to the discussion.
@@coryjensen7060 Cory,, I am so thankful for the insight and the spirit you brought to the podcast. Thank you for coming on. And I'm looking forward to our next conversation!
1:50:53 it’s also true that we covenant to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint and not directly to the lord or HF. Just something that once I noticed it , I could never look past it.
"... For the building up of the kingdom of Zion". If they were authentically building Zion, it would be different. But they are building something else.
1:19:05 Enacting the penalties was removed in 1990 from the endowment ceremony but the penalties -hand holds , thumb extended… remain. No? As far as I can tell the penalties remain which is problematic. Members enter the temple trusting assuming that they will be dealt with fairly and honestly. Informed consent (being made fully aware of what it is one is agreeing to prior to agreement) is what I think all members deserve.
Yes, I wonder when the LDS members will show how these Masonry symbols and secret oaths have anything to do with Jesus Christ other than what is taught in Helaman 6:22
The whole experience is just a dry run anyhow. Do people fall to pieces with passages like eating His flesh? the flood and drowning? Eternal damnation?
Thank you for this great conversation. While I wholeheartedly agree that we can find value and inspiration in the temple and its ordinances, to me that is not the real question. The question is how much of the the endowment comes from God via direct, explicit revelation. The question applies both to the original 1840s version through to the current iteration. To be clear, I do not know the answer for sure. I ask this because we don’t talk about the 10 commandments or the doctrine of Christ in the same way you two have about the endowment in this conversation. We don’t suggest that Moses wasn’t really fully happy with the 10 commandments but felt that there was still some value in them or say that “this isn’t quite arranged right, but I’ve done the best I could” and perhaps others would build upon them or refine them. We don’t suggest that is the case. We believe that the 10 commandments were direct revelation, a “download” from heaven. Ditto with the Doctrine of Christ in the BoM. We don’t believe that the a lord would have allowed such a core doctrine to be recorded and adopted “mostly correctly”. The Lord said, paraphrasing, “here it is. This is exactly what it is. Don’t mess with it or else!!” Yet in this discussion the guest seems to be arguing that what was given was vague, those who received it and who here tasked with preserving it modified it with some degree of sanction from the Lord. Again, I don’t know where I stand here so I’m not intentionally trying to be cantankerous. Michelle, your part 4 episode of your temple series presented, in my view, very compelling evidence that there was zero historical connection between Joseph and the Nauvoo endowment. Also, looking at scripture, particularly the BoM, it is difficult for me to see how any version of the endowment squares with the doctrines of that book. Maybe I’m missing something but I’m telling you where I am. Also, finding value in a ceremony or edifice doesn’t ipso facto make that thing sanctioned by god. We can find many truths, inspiration, and symbolism, and beauty in Catholic cathedrals, in certain Sikh doctrines, in the marvelous works of charitable organizations, in the rich symbolism of art and music. However, it’s another thing to suggest that a certain catholic creed is sanctioned by god or that a Hindu temple is “God’s house”. It seems like in this conversation you’re trying to “wrest the ordinances” to fit with the undeniably positive and uplifting experiences you’ve had with them and within the temple. I don’t doubt that those experiences were real, just as I don’t doubt that anyone can feel the spirit when in Sacre Coeur, or in the Dome of the Rock. The question to me is, “was this sanctioned by god?” Again I don’t know the answer and I hope my directness isn’t perceived as being unkind or harsh. My wife tells me I can come across that way 😂. Thanks again for a thought-provoking episode.
My thoughts precisely. If the Book of Mormon, which came from one source, is the most correct book and will get us closer to good than any other thing. Why is there so much emphasis put on the temple. President Benson saw the importance of the Book of Mormon and promised a blessing hitherto unknown.
Oh my goodness. That is exactly how we have been feeling about things. Thank you for putting it into words for us. I adore Michelle and so grateful for all the work she is doing but the temple thing is so muddy.
@@jackiechoate6163 I have been listening to a lot of what he says but no place in the Book of Mormon does it ever all come together as in God saying "this is what you need to do in order to get back home". So while his findings are interesting I just haven't been able to accept it and especially when Christ himself says that He is the gatekeeper and he employs none other. I am still so confused about it all.
Personally, I prefer to acknowledge that I lack understanding and clarity than to assert that I know everything I need to for certain. I am still seeking, but I think there is value in the challenge and the willingness to ask question and seek to rely on the Lord.
I just finished reading “The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph, and Hyrum” by Ronald Meldon Karren. He shows evidence that Joseph fought polygamy, the temple ceremony and the church were hijacked by Brigham and Heber. As a temple worker, I have been praying to know the truth. This came just at the time I needed it. I have had wonderful experiences in the temple, but also troubling experiences. I am still seeking to know if the temple is of God. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God. I have not received an answer about the temple yet. I do know God answered my 60 years prayer that polygamy was not commanded of God. This gives me hope that I will receive the temple answer. Maybe it is like Cory said about Brigham’s fingerprints. It is what I make it.
I have struggled with temple promises myself. We're always told we'll find peace and safety but Few years ago I was going three times a week because I needed peace and the very opposite happened. I had one of the Most horrific experiences and have developed great fear ever going again. I'm trying to figure that one out so I'll pray with you😇🙏
There is a better temple experience for you you and anyone who desires it. It comes with a story. If you click on my picture icon and go to chapter 10 in the downloads you may be awakened and have many beautiful experiences with Christ and Father!
I have thought about how there two sides to everything. One is Gods line of doctrine and ordinances and there is the devil who believes he is God and controls this world. He mocks and has a literal equal to mimic Gods ways. If the temple started out as the Garden of Eden and then for Adam and Eve to build an altar of stone, was it not turned upside down to be made into an altar made (hewn) with wood and fine materials? Why is it always a mountain God wants us to go to? Nephi amd Moses literally did. Why shouldn't we literally do this? Instead the temple is a building? Why is it that in Nephi's vision the place where people go to is "strange" and people mock from, yet the place that they are supposed to go to is a tree? I understand "lots" of symbolism we're supposed to learn and understand, so why is the tree not our mother and the fruit her wonderful son who tastes delicious to us? Why do we need a building when we are told his atonement is free to us if we just believe and look to him? So if we are holding on to his word (iron rod) we go through the mists of darkness, and do NOT turn off the path to the great and spacious building, but instead "look" ahead and see the tree, step further and partake of the fruit. I understand people are having spiritual experiences IN the temple, but are those experiences directing them to now go out and seek those who are living because the dead are fine... they don't need these things.
I spent my whole entire adult 30 years searching, pondering and praying for understanding on the temple worship. Looking for “hidden meanings” and proofs of the modern temple worship- satan is good at helping us find those things in order to justify what we are doing In 2016 when I finally found the truth about JS an polygamy it all Made sense. My next goal was to understand if the temple really was of God as done by the UT LDS.. the scriptures were no longer proving its validity, but its fallacy I want it to be true, but God has shown me and testified to me that what is done in LDS temples IS NOT OF HIM Until Christ comes again and himself shows us his pure doctrine, I will reject temple worship. The fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is plain and defined by him openly. We need to work daily on those basics and don’t need to complicate it more with secret oaths, tokens, signs- All that I hear in this, is trying to justify.
1:56:04 As a Relief Society president once in Ward Council meeting I remember having to explain (it felt like fighting) why it was Jesus Christ should be the Wards Focus for the upcoming year. It seemed to me like an absolute no brainer as every member of all ages could participate in. Two stodgy High Priests were disgusted with my asserting that Christ is the center point of our faith, not the temple, which was their vote for the years focus. I believed that a greater focus on one’s relationship with Christ was much more important than the temple. Anyway, I agree fully with you both and I was actively pushing for this same perspective 12 years ago. I’m no longer a believer myself but I am completely in support of the gospel being taught and lived as you both see it than the bureaucratic and legalistic way many lead in the church. Personal relationship with Christ/God should trump any other.
😲 The main purpose of the temple is to help us develop a personal relationship with Christ and be taught directly by him. Putting the temple first is making an idol of the fine sanctuary.
@@terrel_shumway I agree with that completely. I wonder if the prophet Mormon 8:37 might have been talking about our temples becoming idols among other things in the church. Although I haven't been to the temple in a long time, I've still felt the Spirit very strongly, despite the issues I have with it.
So much to think about. I do think the church has done a very poor job as caretakers of the "Endowment", mostly through, 'Well, here you go, figure it out for yourselves and don't blame us if you end up in a less than desireable kindgom because you couldn't make sense of it. But don't you dare talk to anyone about it outside of the temple, and don't bother trying to talk about it inside the temple either because we can't give you any answers because we are just as in the dark as you.' That is how it has felt to me. Sorry for my rant.
Why do we need an imperfect endowment when we have the Book of Mormon, which is the most correct book that will get a man closer to God than any other thing?
Mormon and Moroni acknowledged they were not perfect either. If there were mistakes in the Book of Mormon, then it would be the mistakes of men. One mistake may have been that not enough women were mentioned in the record.
Yet we know we don't yet have the fullness. The Book of Mormon itself makes it very clear that it is a prequal to more that is to come. I don't think the temple as we have it is leading us to more, but I don't think it is accurate to believe that the Book of Mormon contains everything there is for us.
While I respect your opinion and have no wish to argue, I find this response to be much like those who try to dismiss all of Michelle's work by simply labeling her a "polygamy denier". Honestly I really can see where you are coming from but I think there is another side to the discussion that is worth reevaluating and taking another look at. It is hard to accomplish that in a two hour podcast when it took me several books to make the case. For those who are open to revisiting the temple I would encourage you to read the books. Again you can download a copy for free.
I can say that I have never felt anything spiritual nor any connection to god in any of the tokens or oaths that were attached to a penalty. I have had profound and very sweet experiences with the one where there is no penalty. This discussion will allow me to go in and see with new eyes and get past the irruption of men. God has to deal with that corruption and so can we with his help.
I have been struggling with some of the issues you mentioned. As I listened to this episode, it became clear to me that God wants me in the temple. I have felt a beautiful peace for the last several hours. This was my answer. Thank you.
Alma 46 describes the only covenant that even comes close to resembling the penalties of the LDS temple. But the ways in which it is distinct from Brigham's endowment are crucial. The Nephites come running to Captain Moroni to answer his call, which is totally tied to maintaining their land in righteousness. They rend their own garments as the token that they would not abandon Christ. Part of the commitment is that they accept themselves being "rent like the garments" by the Lord if they fall into transgression. There is no promise to secrecy here. This is done in public. There is no rigamarole to memorize handshakes (like masons do) and that secrecy is part of the covenant. Instead, they declare themselves in full transparency. Section 124 is important here. The Lord promised to reveal something that had never been revealed, and he promised to do so personally. This event _never happened_, and the endowment we got is just a stand-in that is not close enough to be considered related to what we find in the Book of Mormon. What the Lord promised in 124 has still never been revealed.
The incident u describe in Alma 46 is related to the Law of the Harvest (what we sow, so shall we reap), IMO. They were acknowledging the laws of the universe & announcing that they understood & accepted the consequences of their choices. They chose in to exercising their agency The penalties in the temple involve coercion, threat & force. Those things contradict agency, rather than fostering & honoring it. We are taught that God would cease to be God if They were to compromise agency. Therefore, how can these things be of God…?
If polygamy is an abomination, did Brigham Young desecrate the Temple of God by placing the abomination inside the temple? Descrating a temple had serious consequences anciently.
Thank you so much, Michelle and Cory. This was a beautiful discussion and connected some of the dots and gave me some peace with some of the things I have been struggling with on my faith journey. I'm actually about halfway through Cory and Megan's temple course and have loved it, but have struggled even wanting to go because of what I believe about polygamy now and not knowing what is true and not true about what the church teaches today. It is a hard road to navigate! Michelle, you are a wonderful, humble person and such a great example to me. It is hard to see you be so persecuted and judged by others.
After listening to this conversation in its entirety, I was struck by Cory's comments about his polygamist ancestors at the end and how the subject of polygamy could be replaced with the endowment ceremony. Here's an altered transcript: I've had Pioneer ancestry on both my mom's and my dad's family and and many *participated in the endowment ceremony*. In fact I went and added up the other day there's about 25 in my family line but I have felt a desire to repent of that and to teach my children to do better and differently so that it doesn't continue in our family and and even in some ways maybe we can make some small amends. I don't criticize any of those ancestors. Again, I think they were doing the best that they knew how to follow the Lord. They were making tremendous sacrifices to keep some of these laws. It was very heartbreaking. The false ideas are the problem and why repentance is is so much replacing these false ideas with truth because we can we can sacrifice so much and and yet be on the wrong page. We've got to to be based in truth. With that, I do appreciate Cory's work and thoughtfulness about the endowment ceremony, but for me it feels like it is time to let it go along with other false traditions introduced by Brigham Young and other early church leaders. As one who has faithfully attended the temple for over 25 years, it has been painful and challenging to realize and come to terms with that fact that I have believed and participated in many things that are false and/or corrupted.
Thanks, Michelle, for this interesting discussion. I have many years of temple attendance, including when the penalties were part of the endowment. Cory has given this a lot more thought and research than I have, but for me it’s a stretch to see the Savior’s sacrifice in the penalties. With my limited understanding of scripture, the temple we worship (and we seem to worship the temple) has little in common with any of the Bible or Book of Mormon references to temples. In fact, bringing it back to polygamy, even Jacob scolds the polygamists in the temple!! How’d they get in there without a recommend!!?? In the Book of Mormon temples seems to disappear after the Savior came. I believe verses like Mark 14:58, “We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands,” are hinting at something very different. But I don’t have definitive answers so it’s good to hear contrasting ideas. And, unlike your Brian Hales-type interviews, this was pleasant because you were able to share meaningful questions and doubts, and Cory listened and was sympathetic.
Kathy, thanks for your comment and I can see why it might seem a stretch. We were only able to touch very briefly on things in this episode. If you are interested please read chapters 5 & 6 for a much more complete discussion within a greater context of the entire ceremony. To me the endowment contains one of the most beautiful testimonies of Christ in the entire restoration..
@@coryjensen7060 Thank you! Which book? The last one you wrote? I sincerely appreciated your comments and understanding of the struggle so many of us have felt for legitimate questions about the temple and polygamy. For my part, I've felt the gaslighting for so many years that's it's hard to see any value left in the temple. If there's any truth there, of course I want to find it despite my past negative experiences.
This discussion gives so much food for thought. I’ve understood for quite a while now that all ordinances (including ordinations, I believe) we participate in are physical symbols of a spiritual process that is meant to happen in our individual hearts that binds us closer to Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Parents. They’re an invitation and reminder to prioritize that process. . Temples can be a physical place where some of that process happens, but it doesn’t have to be. Our bodies are temples- and in the temple there is a lot about our bodies, in the initiatory and before we enter the celestial room- those are blessings given specifically to our bodies at the temple so that we become living, walking, breathing connection points for God to work a personal covenant process within us wherever we are. I’m not sure that the temple ought to be where we have our most sacred experiences- I know for me those often happen in the one on one intimate settings that include just me and God, or “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name” (often in our families or our marriage relationships).
Thank you for doing this episode. I have so much hesitation about the temple, but have felt to attend a few times in the past year, and also feel like there really is something special about it. I felt the spirit listening today, thanks.
I do not believe the endowment ceremony is a saving ordinance. It feels more like a false tradition handed down to us by our fathers. Jesus established His doctrine which is to repent, be baptized by water, receive the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost and endure to the end. The endowment is adding to the doctrine of Christ. Jesus speaking of His doctrine said "whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them (3 Nephi 11:40).
Michelle- I agree with you that the endowment is not salvific and tried to make that clear in my presentation. It is instructive but we make a mistake in believing it to be salvific. In a future episode we may address the endowment with respect to the doctrine of Christ. I don't see it replacing that doctrine but rather conforming to the same pattern it establishes but that is a lengthy topic on it's own and we only had time to just scratch the surface of things in this episode.
@@coryjensen7060What if you said this one on one to the president of the church? And then you told him you wrote these books as well as was on a podcast saying it, then he said, I'm sorry we need to withdraw your church membership? You wouldn't even be able to Go to the temple. So many of us can't even express anything because that will happen. I just turned in my recommend. Why have something where the entrance to get in is wrong, not even counting being there. How could I lie saying i believe all those questions when the whole purpose is to be one with God which is transparency and not lying or breaking any commandment? I did however want to tell you your calm demeanor and great discussion were very thought provoking.
Michele and Cory, this has been such a beautiful discussion that has opened my mind for new possibilities. I have attended the temple regularly all of my life and have had profound experiences and also a very dark one that subsequent changes in the temple will no longer allow to happen. The temple, with all of its confusion, has always been a sanctifying experience for me regardless of the many issues. This discussion has helped me to see more avenues of progression. Thank you. One thought, when we are asked to consecrate, it is not a blanket consecration without stipulation, it is “for” the building up of the Kingdom of God and the establishment of Zion. There is much that the church now does, such as donating to the purely satanically evil Bill Gates causes, that is not building or establishing God’s kingdom. Hence, I will not consecrate my time and talents for that. In fact, I am obligated to oppose it.
I disagree with the idea stated by Corey that we need to “anchor ourselves in the BOM and the temple”….nope. We should anchor ourselves upon Jesus. The BOM points us into personal relationship with God. The temple is a mingle of pointing to God and man. (Why do we obey Satan’s command to cover ourselves and keep that covering on throughout? Why do we always need messengers to tell us God’s will? Why do woman take on a new name which is the name of bro. Brigham’s poly wives? Why do we covenant to give everything to the church? Yikes)
I agree 100% that Christ should be our focus. I believe we should seek Him until, like the brother of Jared, we have likewise been redeemed into his presence. To me the BofM and the temple both invite us to make that journey and help us along the way. Sorry if I wasn't more clear on that.
Russell Nelson made the temple changes based on the book “Eve and the Mortal Journey”. Had the opportunity to read it this morning for a bit. YEP! So much for Prophetic Counsel.
16:40 Yes this is me being brief. 😂We are given types and shadows or truth. What is below corresponds with what is above. We are given allegories, parables, symbolism, liturgy, ritual, to point us toward God: He whom we should remember and acknowledge as the source of our salvation. We need to be careful not to exalt these things up into idols. Salvation comes from Christ, not a house made from hands, not from new works/ordinances, etc. Temple instruction is valuable and is all throughout the word in the scriptures because it helps to teach us about our relationship with God, our current condition in mortality, etc. all the way to our end goal of seeking Him and knocking. It is not because secretly the temple theology/ordinances as we know them were known and required amongst anciet peoples (These teachings are ancient as we can see evidence of them being had by the Egyptians, we see them in ancient coronation ceremonies, and other places too.). The temple liturgy illustrates what we need to do, rather than being the actual thing that we need to do. How many have thought/think that they have been "endowed"? Do they even know what that means and how that is recorded in scipture? The modern English word endowment (circa 16th century) comes from dowry, but that's not the biblical meaning. In the Bible there are different words used; Genesis 30.20 zabad/zebed to bestow a gift or endow an endowment; Exodus 20.16 mahar, to pay a dowry, to purchase; then in Greek we have enduo, Luke 24.49, meaning to clothe. This is about receiving the promised Spirit, being clothed by the Holy Spirit. In Hebrew you can find the same in the OT lebush/labash for a garment, robe, clothing / to clothe, be clothes, to put on. Here are some plain passages: Judges 6.34 But the Spirit of YHWH clothed Gideon... 1 Chronicles 12.18 And the Spirit clothed Amasai... 2 Chronicles 24.20 Now the Spirit of God clothed Zechariah... Luke 22.49 And look, I am sending you what my Father promised. But stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
I was given the understanding that the temples are like centers of education. The word houses are like grade school centers, while the temples are like higher education so just colleges and universities. Many go to higher education as an investment to increase their capacity in their career. Similarly, we spiritually invest in learning through temple rituals to in his our salvation, but remember, a college degree is not necessary for employment, and neither are Temple rituals in an outward sense necessary for salvation.
Those blood oaths were put in by Brigham. Most doctrines taught by Brigham and once considered true have been declared false by today's prophets. Much of the temple endowment has been revised as well.
I like how he explains the usefulness of the penalties in explaining why there was no 4th penalty. That Christ took upon himself our penalties. Good episode.
Let me see if I understands this: To go to the highest heaven in the Mormon Church you have to be a Temple Mormon. But to be a Temple Mormon you must give 10% of your gross income to the church. And if you don't or can't afford it you lose your Temple recommend. Sounds like you have to pay to go to the Mormon heaven.
I agree that interpretation is very troubling. I am thankful that the church now simply has us "declare" our tithing status, so we are able to work it out individually with the Lord. This episode was not meant to ignore or understate the problems. I do think it is valuable to look at things carefully from all perspectives. I appreciate Cory's insights.
I am convinced that Joseph Smith was not the author of Mormon polygamy. I would love to follow a deep and thorough research into the true authors of the temple endowments. Was Joseph the author or was it Brigham’s creation. What about the keys of the priesthood? These are glaring questions now that we know the truth about Brigham and his buddies.
Keys deserve their own entire episode because we so misuse and misunderstand that term in the church. If you are interested in my thoughts on the subject please see Chapter 5 - Priesthood and Temple Keys of Completing Your Endowment.
Are you aware that in satanic ritual the sacrifice is disemboweled, the heart removed (while still beating) & the head is cut off? Do I believe pieces of the endowment are based in symbolism of the Light? Yes. Do I believe that one can be taught/tutored by the Spirit while attending the temple & participating in those ordinances? Absolutely. Is it possible that the original endowment incorporated true & beautiful symbolism that can point one to Christ? It is possible, IMO Is it wise to ignore the EXTREMELY DARK corruption that was incorporated somewhere along the way (and which I was taught in the temple, in a temple worker training, that we are still under those evil penalties, even tho they’ve been removed) & think they have no effect upon the individual &/or the church? NO It is a complex & nuanced situation, but to deny that such dark corruption has significant & profound effect on the church & the individual who participates is foolish, IMO.
When I first went through the temple I was shocked because I thought that this is what the Catholic Church did. I never thought we had rituals at all or to this degree. Now my temple experiences are just so, so very beautiful!!!
I have struggled with this too. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is supposed to be simple as far as I can tell. But now we're supposed to believe that the endowment is actually hidden in the Book of Mormon. This bothers me as Christ himself told us what his gospel was in 3rd Nephi chapter 27. It is clear covenants were made with God throughout the Book of Mormon and they weren't done in a very specific way. Each covenant made in the Book of Mormon what is unique. Burying weapons of war, or tearing clothing and throwing them at the feet of Moroni. However after the visitation of Christ and his resurrection he creates a new covenant which is baptism and following him. There are no new covenants mentioned after the visitation of Christ. So having these new covenants in the temple is troubling especially when we don't find them in the simple words of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. Joseph claimed The Book of Mormon was the fullness of the Gospel. I don't mind making additional covenants with God. But to teach them as salvation and as part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that's where I struggle. Teaching them to become closer to God and your spouse and all of humanity, I can get behind that and have no issue with it. It's the salvation part that I struggle with.
Wow Cory, my experience was almost identical to yours. The only temple prep that I had was my Father telling me, after I went through, that he was concerned about my reference to “pizza hats” when I was sealed to my parents at 8. My impression was that this temple experience was something very profound and spiritual though I had no clue what had just happened to me.
19:00 The temple teachings do seem to be ancient (Egyptian endowment, ancient corenation ceremonies, etc.). But May 4th & 5th 1842 endowment does not appear to have happened, those records were altered. We have no revelation for these the temple. And if there was an oridance both received and perform out said of the House the were building to the Lord (the Nauvoo temple) then it cotradicts the word of the Lord in section 124.40, "And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;". Not to mention what the Lord said in 124.28, "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood." Here is a thought to consider, perhaps Brigham used Joseph's work on the books of Abraham and Joseph and constructed the modern endowment ceremony.
He may have taken some inspiration from that. But we can also connect the dots back to the Chocranites who Brigham Young stayed with alone as a missionary. Joseph Cochran the founder would hold dramatized reenactments of the garden of Eden complete with actors and ceremonies. Brigham Young's 4th wife Augusta Adams (who was still married and had children when she married Brigham) was a Cochranite. He married her in 1843. It does not seem like a stretch to me to see that the temple endowments are a marriage of Masonic tokens and symbols and the Chochranite's reenactments of the garden of Eden used to promote spiritual wifery. It ALL comes back to Polygamy.
There is a difference between going through the temple and having the temple go through you. Also, I believe that the question respecting the Law of Consecration asks us if we are "willing" to accept the Law of Consecration, not committing us to living it. Thus, if/when we ever get to the point where conditions are such that we can implement the law, we have committed to be willing to participate in it.
I wish you would do an episode on understanding why Brigham and the other apostles original sealing ordinances were so completely different adopting men to themselves from 1846 to 1894. The first known use of the term "law of adoption" within Mormon doctrine was by apostle Parley P. Pratt; however, the doctrine Pratt referred to was not a sealing ordinance, but rather the means whereby Mormons, through baptism, were said to obtain a birthright as an "adopted" son of God and a member of the heavenly kingdom. There is no surviving evidence that the "law of adoption" sealing practice was taught by Joseph Smith or his contemporaries prior to Smith's death in 1844. However, adoptions appeared on the records of the Nauvoo Temple in 1846, and scholars generally assume that the practice was instituted by Brigham Young. Young was sealed to 38 young men by the law of adoption in the Nauvoo Temple. Wilford Woodruff, the fourth president of the LDS Church, stated in August 1896 that between 1843 and 1894 he "officiated in adopting 96 men to men". Woodruff also stated that by 1885, he had "had 45 persons adopted to me". Woodruff recorded in his diary that when the sealing rooms of the St. George Temple were dedicated in January 1877, Woodruff-who was the temple president-adopted two couples to Brigham Young. Of the seventeen LDS Church apostles who died in the faith prior to 1894, fourteen had persons adopted to them. The practice fell into disrepute partly because "in a few cases it led to jealousy and conflict between sons for their adoptive father's attentions, and because it had in some other cases caused a scramble for status between potential sons seeking adoption by higher-ranking elders, and between elders by accumulating large numbers of adoptive sons". Thus, as of 1894, the practice of the law of adoption ceased in the LDS Church. I thought sacred temple ordinance doctrines would be eternal and the foundational teachings of said doctrines wouldn't be so easily altered. I guess the LDS God changes his mind frequently.
If you trace the concept from the start then you can see that Joseph slowly evolved it from being sealed to God to being sealed in kingdoms. It then evolved more until it settled into the idea of eternal families. There is no where in the scriptures that speak about eternal families, yet we treat it like an eternal principle.
Well said. I haven't watched the video yet, just getting ready to and I like to read some comments before starting. This was a well researched, thought out comment. Thanks.
@@Telavian We have decided that there is too much confusion in church doctrine so we go by the Book of Mormon and the Bible now and I haven't found anything yet about many of the things we do in the church. In fact Christ tells us that we are to repent, be baptized and do the things we have seen Him do and anything more or less than that is of evil. So we are really struggling about the temple and I am hoping this video will help us one direction or the other.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 Yes, most of the ideas in the LDS church are simply wrong according to the scriptures. Religion should be simpler. I think the LDS church is trying to change and fix itself, but so much of it is built on the ideas of men that it is going to take a very long time to fix with drastic measures.
1:24:47 Why on earth are were they not presented with that explanation of that symbolism. This seems like a nice way to make the extreme, scary, icky parts of the ceremony meaningful today.
They don't even explain the low hanging fruit. IMO the whole thing is very poorly done. People should be prepared more, and taught better. I think it is mostly the blind leading the blind. When in doubt go back to love God and your neighbor.
29:45 The Nauvoo temple was built after the manner of the Kirtland house to the Lord, with the addition of a basement with a baptistery. Neither building was designed with the intent or purpose of the endowment ceremony in mind. Per Joseph's and the main engineer/architet's statements, Joseph saw the Nauvoo temple in a vision and he made sure that the building matched. The two 'temples' had assembly halls on the 1st and 2nd floors, with classrooms and offices on the third floor. Let's say for a second that the endowment was from the Lord and given through Joseph. Do we really think that Joseph was building a house to the Lord that wouldn't even accommodate the "endowment"?
Joseph Smith designed the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples only and claimed the architecture, ordinances, layout, rooms, etc. were inspired from the Lord. Yet, those temples are nothing like all the temples designed by Brigham Young through today. There is a clear contrast between Joseph Smith’s temple and Brigham Young’s temples. It is remarkable to me the desperate attempt to justify BY’s temple version to ancient scripture, or any temple in history, when it’s not even close to the same as JS’s. Something is clearly wrong. The temple today in 2024 has zero semblance to the temples of old. I have heard these claims the temple script can be seen in the sermon on the mount, the Book of Mormon, the ark and the flood etc, and these comparisons are extremely intellectually dishonest and not based in reality nor are they rational. I know people find good in the temple but it is not from God. Jesus Christ fulfilled the need for temples through the atonement. He did not give the discretion to add more conditions to his atonement through temple ordinances as the Church teaches today. Temples will keep you from progressing and provide the complete opposite result than members naively believe. Temples are designed to entrap souls to the laws of man and will bind them to this earth only for as long as their souls choose to be spiritually imprisoned. Please listen to what you’re truly making a covenant for and who.
My husband and I spoke with some people from the Restoration Branches a few months ago. They said the same thing about the Nauvoo temple: that it was a very different floor plan than the temples built by the LDS. I've also seen people try and make comparisons with the temple ceremony and scripture, but I've not spent enough time in their arguments to understand them. I am trying to hold space for the temple and honor the good experiences that some people have in them. As for me though, my testimony is very simple... I've landed on the Doctrine of Christ. I figure that it's a safe place to land when I'm unsure of so many things right now. I love 3rd Nephi 11 and how it talks about not adding or taking away from Christ's doctrine.
@ Thank you for your comment. I’ve researched every single scripture people claim connections to the modern temple and it doesn’t work. Their conclusions are based solely on pareidolia at best. Regardless, I completely agree and also honor the positive experiences members have in the temple. I’m not trying to take that away. In fact I have respect for the temple on some level because I know how powerful intent is with the mind. God will manifest anywhere you intend or expect him to. My issue with the temple is members have twisted the atonement as conditional and added new “ordinances” and conditions in order to achieve salvation. Modern LDS temples are not scriptural, and they’re certainly not from Jesus Christ. My testimony is also simple and rooted in Jesus Christ. I think man has overly complicated eternal progress beyond Christ’s teachings. I don’t need to attend the temple to feel God or Christ in my life. I feel him everywhere.
I agree very much with some of your comment, and I disagree with some of it. I feel there is still more for me to seek and learn about the temple. I don't claim or believe it is the only way to God, but I also know that it doesn't keep us from God. I think it is important how we perceive it, and, like everything, it is individual to each of us and our unique paths and willingness following God.
@@MichelleBStone Thank you for your comment. I actually have so much respect and appreciation for your channel and work that you invest in seeking the truth. I did not intent to imply the temple keeps you from God. We can find God anywhere we truly seek, inside and outside the temple. Every single religious person around the world claims to find God in whatever religious practice they are familiar with, especially with pure and humble intent. My core issue with modern LDS temples are the conditions placed on the atonement that’s not backed by any scripture or teachings from Jesus Christ. I personally don’t need to sit in a celestial room to feel God’s love. I can meditate at home and feel the same love. I know many members value the temple experience and I have great respect for that. It’s what they feel they need and I honor and respect that. Much of the temple script and ritual is between you and the Church, which seems more of a Brigham spin than from Joseph Smith who claimed true revelation from God. Regardless, any place we feel God is good. Thanks for this episode. I could feel the sincerity and humility in you and Cory’s convictions.
Having the key words and tokens means being or becoming the right answers. It's not giving the key words, it's being the key words. These are emblems of our sacrifice and experience.
I haven't watched yet. The temple has really soured for me. I can't see how Nelson can be a prophet anymore, so how could he be changing the ceremony to become just right or at least getting closer to anything correct? I turned in my recommend because I can't answer the temple questions to be good or right for a person to enter into it, much less the actual ceremonies in it. The last time I went when speaking and asking questions to what my friends thought, not one of them truly have any idea why they are there. They hadn't thought about any questions I had asked, as if we're all just mindless drones going through the temple motions. I was so tired of going with different people so I could talk about certain things while there, and never did anyone actually have answers. They actually never even think about anything remotely deep about what they are doing in there. Finally after praying and asking if President Nelson was NOT a prophet I received my answer. If he's not, why should I even go inside? The temples are currently all the great and spacious buildings. Jesus apostles taught in the temple, but they didn't make it secret or "strange". 1 Nephi 8:33
34:45....I can't answer honestly about more than one of these questions.The temple in our day is not right. I'd rather go to the mountains. Isaiah 2...we have temple worship, not worship the Lord.
40 minute mark...my thoughts exactly. If we said this exactly along with the answer here SUPER OUT LOUD...we will be X'D. Do we understand this? This proves things are very wrong in the church.
44:35 minutes, and how in the world would anyone know that the second token symbolism was the baptism of fire and of the holy ghost? I learn that in the BofM, not the LDS temple.
57:35. And Zion won't need a temple, so this is a huge quandary from what we sre doing as a people. The "city" of Enoch will come back. We in our hearts, minds and body (whole soul) will need to be in accordance with the Lord Jesus Christ AND our Father in Heaven, which the Holy Spirit will be witness of.
Why does Paul teach that the "old tabernacle", "an earthly sanctuary" is of the "first covenant"? Hebrews 9 1 Now the first covenant, in fact, had regulations for worship and its earthly sanctuary. … 8 The Holy Spirit is making clear that the way into the Holy Place had not yet appeared as long as the old tabernacle was standing. 9 This was a symbol for the time then present, when gifts and sacrifices were offered that could not perfect the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They served only for matters of food and drink and various ritual washings; they are external regulations imposed until the new order came.(the New Covenant - a new heart (the temple of the Holy Spirit) - Deut.30; Jer.31; Ezk.11&36)
I’m not LDS but I do have a few friends that are. Some of those LDS friends are not interested in attending the temple. They told me you can be a good LDS member and not attend the temple. It’s like my Catholic friends who attend church but never take the sacrament. I guess people just tailor their faith to their own liking.
@colt40fly thank you for sharing. I can relate at least on some level. May I ask what your understanding of the symbolism of the garments is? I'm very interested to learn more about it.
@ well, that’s a very long discussion but in short, garments are meant to be used as a form of talisman where members give “power” to provide a shield of protection. In reality, that same shield prevents you from connecting directly with God and places the Church between you and God. When I first wore garments, I was told it was for a reminder of our covenants in the temple, and it was also supposed to symbolize the coats of skin placed on Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness and remind us of our fallen state and sin. It wasn’t until very recently it was redefined to associate with Jesus Christ and the veil, which is super ironic to me because it’s the veil that keeps you separated from God. It wasn’t until I removed my garments when I felt reconnected to God directly. People are literally afraid to not wear garments, which should be a red flag since fear is never from God. The real symbolism of garments is isolation from God, as a form of punishment to remind us how unworthy we are and how much we need the church or “covenant path” for salvation. The garment symbols are 100% Masonic and require a larger discussion. Regardless, it’s so childish to me. Once I removed my garments and reconnected to God directly without the Church as a middleman, I can never go back. But that’s my experience. Like I said, people give whatever object power by intent and desire. It’s all mental and if members find value in that, I would never try and take that away. At some point in their existence they’ll need to grow up and see a bigger picture and stop trying to fit God in their small narrow box of understanding.
@StompMom5 yes. I now suspect Cory was directed to Michelle by the church to run defense. I was also turned off by his constant book selling throughout the episode.
@@MaryW359 Ha I am so so far off the church's radar that your comment actually made me laugh. In truth, my own faith journey/crisis began in 2002. It has been similar to Michelle's and I appreciate and respect the balanced approach she tries to take with regard to the Church. There was a time when I seriously considered leaving but the Lord asked me to stay and so I try to contribute to the good and help to heal some of the bad but it is not always easy for me. I'm sorry if referencing the books offended, but I am only able to give such a brief dip into the topic in this episode that I wanted to direct those who are interested to where they can do a deeper dive. Completing Your Endowment (the book we are discussing mostly in this episode) is available for free on my website. I don't personally make anything from selling books and I am a nobody in the church.
@coryjensen7060 then I will come to the conclusion that we are on polar opposites. I'm in a place where I don't want to offend the Lord now that he's given this information to me. The endowment is not of God as ordinances cannot be changed, period. I'm looking forward to the re-restoration of all things coming soon. I feel that most members will reject the correct endowment because they'll turn themselves into pretzels making what we have currently as all they need. Look to God and shed the false traditions.
@@MaryW359 Humbly, I think your understanding of "ordinances cannot be changed" is incorrect. For example, assuming that we can agree that baptism is a required ordinance. then one may say that the form and the wording cannot change, right? Well what is the form? How much of it is necessary? Hold the right out and up? Perhaps we should just stick to what the Lord said to the Nephites: (3N11) 25. Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. 26. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. But wait, did Alma do it wrong? 12. And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. 13. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. 14. And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit. (Mosiah 18) Do you take you sacrement with wine only?
This was wonderful - filled my soul in ways I didn’t realize I needed ❤ thank you both ❤ I still wonder the validity of doing work for the dead - if he has thoughts on that for next time? Michelle I’m dying to hear your temple experience! But I understand it may be something that needs to be your own.
Yes, lots of things have been removed, from which great lessons could be discerned. The shape of the woman's veil used to be a square. This is in contrast to the man's hat which is a circle. Now the woman's veil is no shape. This is a tremendous loss. The circle and square have tremendous implications. That is now lost because it wasn't understood.
The most important thing about the temple is informed consent. Just like polygamy.. everything that happens in the temple should be considered extreme patriarchy
I’m so sick of hearing about this patriarchy as if it is men against women when the reality is that it is the elite against the masses. I’ve suffered far more priesthood abuse in my life than my dear wife has ever even heard of. Men suffer often even more when they do not bow down to what you erroneously term the patriarchy.
Moron8:22-23 tells me that all work for the dead those that died without Christ, is a dead work, and a mockery before God. It’s a red flag when he says all scriptures point to the temple. Bom calls that looking beyond the mark, despising the words of plainness. It’s a red flag when he is trying to prove it came from Joseph instead of God.Polygamy and the temple are the same in that God never commanded it! If it’s something you really want to be true, we see what we want to see and must check ourselves.we make his ways ours, it’s just human nature. The temple never mentioned again in the bom after Christ came. In the Bible the early Jewish Christians held on to their Jewish traditions while just adding Christianity into it. Clearly later Peter and Paul both teach we are temple made of living stones, that God doesn’t dwell in temples made with man’s hands.He meets us where we are at, but we must realize he is closer then any of us imagine we don’t need to plea with him to come to us, for he is in all things, he never leaves but is right there, we don’t have eyes to see. The temple almost creates this unbelief that we have to go there to find him closer to us.we don’t get worthy to go to temple to find God, we run to God to be made holy and realize he was always there. You think we are going to build him a temple? Heaven is his throne, earth his footstool .Christ referred to himself as the temple that would be destroyed and raised again in three days.Because David so badly wanted to build a temple, when the lord told him no, and said another one great and mighty accepted by lord from his line would build it, he assumed it would be Solomon, but he was talking about Christ. Sadly the great day of Pentecost at kirtland temple never happened, no Christ visitation, no Elijah etc. Joseph and Oliver cowdery never mentioned it in their lifetimes as happening, neither did their scribes, this was only mentioned as happening after they had both died. How could Elijah and Elias come, when we know those are the same person , Greek vs Hebrew way of saying the same name? How could Elijah have come if Joseph always spoke of it as a future event, something to look forward to even as late as the 1840’s? Oliver gave a detailed long account of this event the next day and never mentioned any of this happening , he only said someone else mentioned an Angel sat next to Joseph smith senior! David whitmer said it was all trumped up-yarn,a grand fizzle, he was there.Apostle William mclellin said there was just men who had drank too much trying to pronounce blessings. These weren’t enemies of the church.
Still listening…. Cory mentioned you can’t fake the Holy Ghost. I think you also can’t fake the first one either. You can’t memorize that first one because it’s something that has to be given to you personally. You can’t memorize someone else’s answer to that question.
Have you heard of the claim that Joseph Smith actually got the endowment originally from the Native American Indians? Their sweat lodge ceremony has a lot of similarities to our endowment. The claim I heard was that Joseph and Hyrum chose to adapt what they received from the Indians into a “language” more familiar to the Saints- which was masonry.
It is interesting to me how many places throughout history that some of these ideas show up including in Native American sources. In 1885, H. Clay Trumbull, a non-LDS theologian gave a series of lectures on his research into primitive covenant rites among biblical and non-biblical peoples. It is striking how markedly similar elements of covenant making were found throughout the world in a wide variety of cultures from Asia and India to South and North America including among Native Americans. His work was eventually published in a book called, The Blood Covenant: A Primitive Rite and Its Bearing on Scripture (Kirkwood, Missouri: Impact Christian Books, 1975). Many of the covenant practices of these ancient peoples are echoed in our modern temple ceremony and his book was one of the things that helped me to begin to unravel some of what we have today. While many of these rites were obviously corruptions, the striking similarities among such disparate cultures led me to conclude that much of it descended from an earlier truer source. It seems anytime God establishes something, opposing forces seek to imitate and / or to corrupt it. Hence we find symbols such as the Serpent, which originally was a symbol of Christ, but was usurped and also became a symbol for Satan.
I've heard that claim. Apparently the Ojibwe may have been who gave it to him. In a remarkable coincidence, the markings on temple garments are actually the Ojibwe language as well. Unbelievably they say, according to the Ojibwe, "a great spirit of protection upon you".
I disagree that the bom and Bible don’t contain everything we need ! True there is other sealed portions of the Book that won’t come forth until the church repents of iniquity and has faith like the brother of Jared, according to the bom. Revelation given to Joseph, Oliver and whitmer in 1829 talking about the bom and bible "Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written, for in them are all things written concerning my church, my gospel, and my rock." This revelation reads this way to-day in the old Book of Commandments it was altered for the doctrine and covenants. - the BoM clearly is hear to set the points of his doctrine straight, that there would be no more disputation. The lord new we would need to be saved from false doctrine contained in the doctrine and covenants. The minute the Lord brought forth the bom the devil began to plant tears in the wheat. Do we care about what Joseph said more than the words of the Book the Lord has commanded us to use, for our day, the cornerstone? If the bom continues to be the redhead step child of this institution, it will continue to be condemned.The Book came forth written for our day. We must stop down playing! Treating it like it’s just the basics, overshadowing it with false doctrines.
OUTSTANDING! Both sides of this discussion resonate with what the Spirit has been teaching me for over two decades. Thank you both for your honesty and open hearts, inspiration, and consecration (true consecration 🤍).
@sdfotodude Yeah, I think she has canceled some of my comments also. And the end result of cancel culture is an echo chamber where one remains incapable of altering one's position. We all do this to some degree or another. Including me.
Cory, sincere question, president Nelson feels that the fullness of the priesthood has been restored with the completion of the Nauvoo temple this he stated as you might recall a few conferences back. What is your conviction on the matter as understood by what the Lord said would occur if the temple was completed? I gather from what you said, and correct me if I’m wrong, you mentioned the temple represents the lesser priesthood / law?
Where did President Nelson find it or take it back from? Section 124.28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
Yes, we clearly don't have the fulness that could have been restored if the Nauvoo temple had been completed and had Joseph been permitted to remain. As a church we are laboring under a lesser law. But what remains is sufficient for individuals to rise up and receive more if they so choose.
I'm totally ok with people disagreeing with me, but I would like to clarify that I have not ever made a penny from the work I have done on the temple and in fact it has cost me much time and thousands of dollars from my own pocket.l I donate 100% of my proceeds to charitable causes and have spent thousands of my own dollars in getting the message out.
Everything he said about the penalties was conjecture and opinion. The Lord has not revealed what they meant. On top of this, they were removed, then why were such marvelous lessons removed? Was it because of a survey? Wasn’t this removed by the prophet / leaders? I’m not buying his opinions. We need what the Lord thinks.
I want to express my heartfelt thanks to Michelle for having me on her podcast and to all who took the time to listen and contribute to the discussion.
@@coryjensen7060 Cory,, I am so thankful for the insight and the spirit you brought to the podcast. Thank you for coming on. And I'm looking forward to our next conversation!
Thank you for your humble, beautiful thoughts and testimony. They were exactly what my soul needed. Much to ponder on! 🙏
1:50:53 it’s also true that we covenant to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint and not directly to the lord or HF. Just something that once I noticed it , I could never look past it.
That has always troubled me as well.
"... For the building up of the kingdom of Zion".
If they were authentically building Zion, it would be different. But they are building something else.
Because you are "consecrating" everything to a bunch of greedy old men.
1:19:05 Enacting the penalties was removed in 1990 from the endowment ceremony but the penalties -hand holds , thumb extended… remain. No?
As far as I can tell the penalties remain which is problematic. Members enter the temple trusting assuming that they will be dealt with fairly and honestly. Informed consent (being made fully aware of what it is one is agreeing to prior to agreement) is what I think all members deserve.
Yes, I wonder when the LDS members will show how these Masonry symbols and secret oaths have anything to do with Jesus Christ other than what is taught in Helaman 6:22
The whole experience is just a dry run anyhow. Do people fall to pieces with passages like eating His flesh? the flood and drowning? Eternal damnation?
Thank you for this great conversation.
While I wholeheartedly agree that we can find value and inspiration in the temple and its ordinances, to me that is not the real question.
The question is how much of the the endowment comes from God via direct, explicit revelation. The question applies both to the original 1840s version through to the current iteration. To be clear, I do not know the answer for sure.
I ask this because we don’t talk about the 10 commandments or the doctrine of Christ in the same way you two have about the endowment in this conversation.
We don’t suggest that Moses wasn’t really fully happy with the 10 commandments but felt that there was still some value in them or say that “this isn’t quite arranged right, but I’ve done the best I could” and perhaps others would build upon them or refine them. We don’t suggest that is the case. We believe that the 10 commandments were direct revelation, a “download” from heaven.
Ditto with the Doctrine of Christ in the BoM. We don’t believe that the a lord would have allowed such a core doctrine to be recorded and adopted “mostly correctly”. The Lord said, paraphrasing, “here it is. This is exactly what it is. Don’t mess with it or else!!”
Yet in this discussion the guest seems to be arguing that what was given was vague, those who received it and who here tasked with preserving it modified it with some degree of sanction from the Lord.
Again, I don’t know where I stand here so I’m not intentionally trying to be cantankerous.
Michelle, your part 4 episode of your temple series presented, in my view, very compelling evidence that there was zero historical connection between Joseph and the Nauvoo endowment.
Also, looking at scripture, particularly the BoM, it is difficult for me to see how any version of the endowment squares with the doctrines of that book. Maybe I’m missing something but I’m telling you where I am.
Also, finding value in a ceremony or edifice doesn’t ipso facto make that thing sanctioned by god. We can find many truths, inspiration, and symbolism, and beauty in Catholic cathedrals, in certain Sikh doctrines, in the marvelous works of charitable organizations, in the rich symbolism of art and music.
However, it’s another thing to suggest that a certain catholic creed is sanctioned by god or that a Hindu temple is “God’s house”.
It seems like in this conversation you’re trying to “wrest the ordinances” to fit with the undeniably positive and uplifting experiences you’ve had with them and within the temple. I don’t doubt that those experiences were real, just as I don’t doubt that anyone can feel the spirit when in Sacre Coeur, or in the Dome of the Rock.
The question to me is, “was this sanctioned by god?”
Again I don’t know the answer and I hope my directness isn’t perceived as being unkind or harsh. My wife tells me I can come across that way 😂.
Thanks again for a thought-provoking episode.
My thoughts precisely. If the Book of Mormon, which came from one source, is the most correct book and will get us closer to good than any other thing. Why is there so much emphasis put on the temple. President Benson saw the importance of the Book of Mormon and promised a blessing hitherto unknown.
According to Dave Butler's book In the Language of Adam, the book of Mormon is full of temple litergy. It's a good read.
Oh my goodness. That is exactly how we have been feeling about things. Thank you for putting it into words for us. I adore Michelle and so grateful for all the work she is doing but the temple thing is so muddy.
@@jackiechoate6163 I have been listening to a lot of what he says but no place in the Book of Mormon does it ever all come together as in God saying "this is what you need to do in order to get back home". So while his findings are interesting I just haven't been able to accept it and especially when Christ himself says that He is the gatekeeper and he employs none other. I am still so confused about it all.
Personally, I prefer to acknowledge that I lack understanding and clarity than to assert that I know everything I need to for certain. I am still seeking, but I think there is value in the challenge and the willingness to ask question and seek to rely on the Lord.
I just finished reading “The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph, and Hyrum” by Ronald Meldon Karren. He shows evidence that Joseph fought polygamy, the temple ceremony and the church were hijacked by Brigham and Heber. As a temple worker, I have been praying to know the truth. This came just at the time I needed it. I have had wonderful experiences in the temple, but also troubling experiences. I am still seeking to know if the temple is of God. If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God. I have not received an answer about the temple yet. I do know God answered my 60 years prayer that polygamy was not commanded of God. This gives me hope that I will receive the temple answer. Maybe it is like Cory said about Brigham’s fingerprints. It is what I make it.
I have struggled with temple promises myself. We're always told we'll find peace and safety but Few years ago I was going three times a week because I needed peace and the very opposite happened.
I had one of the Most horrific experiences and have developed great fear ever going again. I'm trying to figure that one out so I'll pray with you😇🙏
@@StompMom5 I'm so sorry to hear that, thank you for sharing
There is a better temple experience for you you and anyone who desires it. It comes with a story. If you click on my picture icon and go to chapter 10 in the downloads you may be awakened and have many beautiful experiences with Christ and Father!
I have thought about how there two sides to everything. One is Gods line of doctrine and ordinances and there is the devil who believes he is God and controls this world. He mocks and has a literal equal to mimic Gods ways. If the temple started out as the Garden of Eden and then for Adam and Eve to build an altar of stone, was it not turned upside down to be made into an altar made (hewn) with wood and fine materials? Why is it always a mountain God wants us to go to? Nephi amd Moses literally did. Why shouldn't we literally do this? Instead the temple is a building? Why is it that in Nephi's vision the place where people go to is "strange" and people mock from, yet the place that they are supposed to go to is a tree? I understand "lots" of symbolism we're supposed to learn and understand, so why is the tree not our mother and the fruit her wonderful son who tastes delicious to us? Why do we need a building when we are told his atonement is free to us if we just believe and look to him? So if we are holding on to his word (iron rod) we go through the mists of darkness, and do NOT turn off the path to the great and spacious building, but instead "look" ahead and see the tree, step further and partake of the fruit.
I understand people are having spiritual experiences IN the temple, but are those experiences directing them to now go out and seek those who are living because the dead are fine... they don't need these things.
@@MommaCrissa i really like what you are saying
I spent my whole entire adult 30 years searching, pondering and praying for understanding on the temple worship. Looking for “hidden meanings” and proofs of the modern temple worship- satan is good at helping us find those things in order to justify what we are doing
In 2016 when I finally found the truth about JS an polygamy it all
Made sense. My next goal was to understand if the temple really was of God as done by the UT LDS.. the scriptures were no longer proving its validity, but its fallacy
I want it to be true, but God has shown me and testified to me that what is done in LDS temples IS NOT OF HIM
Until Christ comes again and himself shows us his pure doctrine, I will reject temple worship.
The fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is plain and defined by him openly. We need to work daily on those basics and don’t need to complicate it more with secret oaths, tokens, signs-
All that I hear in this, is trying to justify.
Good stuff
1:56:04 As a Relief Society president once in Ward Council meeting I remember having to explain (it felt like fighting) why it was Jesus Christ should be the Wards Focus for the upcoming year. It seemed to me like an absolute no brainer as every member of all ages could participate in. Two stodgy High Priests were disgusted with my asserting that Christ is the center point of our faith, not the temple, which was their vote for the years focus. I believed that a greater focus on one’s relationship with Christ was much more important than the temple. Anyway, I agree fully with you both and I was actively pushing for this same perspective 12 years ago.
I’m no longer a believer myself but I am completely in support of the gospel being taught and lived as you both see it than the bureaucratic and legalistic way many lead in the church. Personal relationship with Christ/God should trump any other.
@@Allthoseopposed love your comment. I'm in the same boat as you. Glad I'm not alone
😲 The main purpose of the temple is to help us develop a personal relationship with Christ and be taught directly by him.
Putting the temple first is making an idol of the fine sanctuary.
@@terrel_shumway I agree with that completely. I wonder if the prophet Mormon 8:37 might have been talking about our temples becoming idols among other things in the church.
Although I haven't been to the temple in a long time, I've still felt the Spirit very strongly, despite the issues I have with it.
So much to think about. I do think the church has done a very poor job as caretakers of the "Endowment", mostly through, 'Well, here you go, figure it out for yourselves and don't blame us if you end up in a less than desireable kindgom because you couldn't make sense of it. But don't you dare talk to anyone about it outside of the temple, and don't bother trying to talk about it inside the temple either because we can't give you any answers because we are just as in the dark as you.' That is how it has felt to me. Sorry for my rant.
Why do we need an imperfect endowment when we have the Book of Mormon, which is the most correct book that will get a man closer to God than any other thing?
PREACH!
Mormon and Moroni acknowledged they were not perfect either. If there were mistakes in the Book of Mormon, then it would be the mistakes of men.
One mistake may have been that not enough women were mentioned in the record.
I didn't say the Book of Mormon was perfect. JS said it was the most correct book.
@@Carlfreestoneifyand it contains the fullness.
Yet we know we don't yet have the fullness. The Book of Mormon itself makes it very clear that it is a prequal to more that is to come. I don't think the temple as we have it is leading us to more, but I don't think it is accurate to believe that the Book of Mormon contains everything there is for us.
Watching this has brought me closer to the spirit than church classes ever did.
Right there with ya👌
I guess you found a better place to be and spend your time then. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 I like the metaphor of the prodigal son being dressed in robes and being welcomed into the temple.
@@haroldpeterson7106 So where you guys going to build your new church?
New church? It’s already there. the mountains
Secret blood oaths are from the devil. Sorry, but it really is that easy.
While I respect your opinion and have no wish to argue, I find this response to be much like those who try to dismiss all of Michelle's work by simply labeling her a "polygamy denier". Honestly I really can see where you are coming from but I think there is another side to the discussion that is worth reevaluating and taking another look at. It is hard to accomplish that in a two hour podcast when it took me several books to make the case. For those who are open to revisiting the temple I would encourage you to read the books. Again you can download a copy for free.
@coryjensen7060 I don't really understand your comparison, but to each their own. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and understanding.
You wouldn't be able to argue it anyways. It seems evil, smells like evil, walks like evil.@@coryjensen7060
I agree @ejs7721 Ive never thoight secret blood oaths were anything other than what Satan administered to Cain or Lamech
I can say that I have never felt anything spiritual nor any connection to god in any of the tokens or oaths that were attached to a penalty. I have had profound and very sweet experiences with the one where there is no penalty. This discussion will allow me to go in and see with new eyes and get past the irruption of men. God has to deal with that corruption and so can we with his help.
I have been struggling with some of the issues you mentioned. As I listened to this episode, it became clear to me that God wants me in the temple. I have felt a beautiful peace for the last several hours. This was my answer.
Thank you.
Thank you. It is for brothers and sisters like you that I wanted to do this episode.
Alma 46 describes the only covenant that even comes close to resembling the penalties of the LDS temple. But the ways in which it is distinct from Brigham's endowment are crucial.
The Nephites come running to Captain Moroni to answer his call, which is totally tied to maintaining their land in righteousness. They rend their own garments as the token that they would not abandon Christ. Part of the commitment is that they accept themselves being "rent like the garments" by the Lord if they fall into transgression.
There is no promise to secrecy here. This is done in public. There is no rigamarole to memorize handshakes (like masons do) and that secrecy is part of the covenant. Instead, they declare themselves in full transparency.
Section 124 is important here. The Lord promised to reveal something that had never been revealed, and he promised to do so personally. This event _never happened_, and the endowment we got is just a stand-in that is not close enough to be considered related to what we find in the Book of Mormon.
What the Lord promised in 124 has still never been revealed.
Amen
The incident u describe in Alma 46 is related to the Law of the Harvest (what we sow, so shall we reap), IMO. They were acknowledging the laws of the universe & announcing that they understood & accepted the consequences of their choices. They chose in to exercising their agency
The penalties in the temple involve coercion, threat & force. Those things contradict agency, rather than fostering & honoring it.
We are taught that God would cease to be God if They were to compromise agency. Therefore, how can these things be of God…?
@sfloyd5902 excellent points, here.
If polygamy is an abomination, did Brigham Young desecrate the Temple of God by placing the abomination inside the temple? Descrating a temple had serious consequences anciently.
Thank you so much, Michelle and Cory. This was a beautiful discussion and connected some of the dots and gave me some peace with some of the things I have been struggling with on my faith journey. I'm actually about halfway through Cory and Megan's temple course and have loved it, but have struggled even wanting to go because of what I believe about polygamy now and not knowing what is true and not true about what the church teaches today. It is a hard road to navigate! Michelle, you are a wonderful, humble person and such a great example to me. It is hard to see you be so persecuted and judged by others.
After listening to this conversation in its entirety, I was struck by Cory's comments about his polygamist ancestors at the end and how the subject of polygamy could be replaced with the endowment ceremony. Here's an altered transcript:
I've had Pioneer ancestry on both my mom's and my dad's family and and many *participated in the endowment ceremony*. In fact I went and added up the other day there's about 25 in my family line but I have felt a desire to repent of that and to teach my children to do better and differently so that it doesn't continue in our family and and even in some ways maybe we can make some small amends. I don't criticize any of those ancestors. Again, I think they were doing the best that they knew how to follow the Lord. They were making tremendous sacrifices to keep some of these laws. It was very heartbreaking. The false ideas are the problem and why repentance is is so much replacing these false ideas with truth because we can we can sacrifice so much and and yet be on the wrong page. We've got to to be based in truth.
With that, I do appreciate Cory's work and thoughtfulness about the endowment ceremony, but for me it feels like it is time to let it go along with other false traditions introduced by Brigham Young and other early church leaders. As one who has faithfully attended the temple for over 25 years, it has been painful and challenging to realize and come to terms with that fact that I have believed and participated in many things that are false and/or corrupted.
Thanks, Michelle, for this interesting discussion. I have many years of temple attendance, including when the penalties were part of the endowment. Cory has given this a lot more thought and research than I have, but for me it’s a stretch to see the Savior’s sacrifice in the penalties. With my limited understanding of scripture, the temple we worship (and we seem to worship the temple) has little in common with any of the Bible or Book of Mormon references to temples. In fact, bringing it back to polygamy, even Jacob scolds the polygamists in the temple!! How’d they get in there without a recommend!!?? In the Book of Mormon temples seems to disappear after the Savior came. I believe verses like Mark 14:58, “We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands,” are hinting at something very different. But I don’t have definitive answers so it’s good to hear contrasting ideas. And, unlike your Brian Hales-type interviews, this was pleasant because you were able to share meaningful questions and doubts, and Cory listened and was sympathetic.
Kathy, thanks for your comment and I can see why it might seem a stretch. We were only able to touch very briefly on things in this episode. If you are interested please read chapters 5 & 6 for a much more complete discussion within a greater context of the entire ceremony. To me the endowment contains one of the most beautiful testimonies of Christ in the entire restoration..
@@coryjensen7060 Thank you! Which book? The last one you wrote?
I sincerely appreciated your comments and understanding of the struggle so many of us have felt for legitimate questions about the temple and polygamy. For my part, I've felt the gaslighting for so many years that's it's hard to see any value left in the temple. If there's any truth there, of course I want to find it despite my past negative experiences.
@@kathybence Yes the last book
This discussion gives so much food for thought.
I’ve understood for quite a while now that all ordinances (including ordinations, I believe) we participate in are physical symbols of a spiritual process that is meant to happen in our individual hearts that binds us closer to Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Parents. They’re an invitation and reminder to prioritize that process. . Temples can be a physical place where some of that process happens, but it doesn’t have to be. Our bodies are temples- and in the temple there is a lot about our bodies, in the initiatory and before we enter the celestial room- those are blessings given specifically to our bodies at the temple so that we become living, walking, breathing connection points for God to work a personal covenant process within us wherever we are. I’m not sure that the temple ought to be where we have our most sacred experiences- I know for me those often happen in the one on one intimate settings that include just me and God, or “where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name” (often in our families or our marriage relationships).
Thank you for doing this episode. I have so much hesitation about the temple, but have felt to attend a few times in the past year, and also feel like there really is something special about it. I felt the spirit listening today, thanks.
I do not believe the endowment ceremony is a saving ordinance. It feels more like a false tradition handed down to us by our fathers. Jesus established His doctrine which is to repent, be baptized by water, receive the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost and endure to the end. The endowment is adding to the doctrine of Christ. Jesus speaking of His doctrine said "whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them (3 Nephi 11:40).
Michelle- I agree with you that the endowment is not salvific and tried to make that clear in my presentation. It is instructive but we make a mistake in believing it to be salvific. In a future episode we may address the endowment with respect to the doctrine of Christ. I don't see it replacing that doctrine but rather conforming to the same pattern it establishes but that is a lengthy topic on it's own and we only had time to just scratch the surface of things in this episode.
@@coryjensen7060What if you said this one on one to the president of the church? And then you told him you wrote these books as well as was on a podcast saying it, then he said, I'm sorry we need to withdraw your church membership? You wouldn't even be able to Go to the temple. So many of us can't even express anything because that will happen. I just turned in my recommend. Why have something where the entrance to get in is wrong, not even counting being there. How could I lie saying i believe all those questions when the whole purpose is to be one with God which is transparency and not lying or breaking any commandment?
I did however want to tell you your calm demeanor and great discussion were very thought provoking.
Michele and Cory, this has been such a beautiful discussion that has opened my mind for new possibilities. I have attended the temple regularly all of my life and have had profound experiences and also a very dark one that subsequent changes in the temple will no longer allow to happen. The temple, with all of its confusion, has always been a sanctifying experience for me regardless of the many issues. This discussion has helped me to see more avenues of progression. Thank you.
One thought, when we are asked to consecrate, it is not a blanket consecration without stipulation, it is “for” the building up of the Kingdom of God and the establishment of Zion. There is much that the church now does, such as donating to the purely satanically evil Bill Gates causes, that is not building or establishing God’s kingdom. Hence, I will not consecrate my time and talents for that. In fact, I am obligated to oppose it.
I disagree with the idea stated by Corey that we need to “anchor ourselves in the BOM and the temple”….nope. We should anchor ourselves upon Jesus. The BOM points us into personal relationship with God. The temple is a mingle of pointing to God and man. (Why do we obey Satan’s command to cover ourselves and keep that covering on throughout? Why do we always need messengers to tell us God’s will? Why do woman take on a new name which is the name of bro. Brigham’s poly wives? Why do we covenant to give everything to the church? Yikes)
I agree 100% that Christ should be our focus. I believe we should seek Him until, like the brother of Jared, we have likewise been redeemed into his presence. To me the BofM and the temple both invite us to make that journey and help us along the way. Sorry if I wasn't more clear on that.
Russell Nelson made the temple changes based on the book “Eve and the Mortal Journey”. Had the opportunity to read it this morning for a bit. YEP! So much for Prophetic Counsel.
Interesting! I want to look up that book!
16:40 Yes this is me being brief. 😂We are given types and shadows or truth. What is below corresponds with what is above. We are given allegories, parables, symbolism, liturgy, ritual, to point us toward God: He whom we should remember and acknowledge as the source of our salvation. We need to be careful not to exalt these things up into idols. Salvation comes from Christ, not a house made from hands, not from new works/ordinances, etc. Temple instruction is valuable and is all throughout the word in the scriptures because it helps to teach us about our relationship with God, our current condition in mortality, etc. all the way to our end goal of seeking Him and knocking. It is not because secretly the temple theology/ordinances as we know them were known and required amongst anciet peoples (These teachings are ancient as we can see evidence of them being had by the Egyptians, we see them in ancient coronation ceremonies, and other places too.). The temple liturgy illustrates what we need to do, rather than being the actual thing that we need to do.
How many have thought/think that they have been "endowed"? Do they even know what that means and how that is recorded in scipture? The modern English word endowment (circa 16th century) comes from dowry, but that's not the biblical meaning. In the Bible there are different words used; Genesis 30.20 zabad/zebed to bestow a gift or endow an endowment; Exodus 20.16 mahar, to pay a dowry, to purchase; then in Greek we have enduo, Luke 24.49, meaning to clothe. This is about receiving the promised Spirit, being clothed by the Holy Spirit. In Hebrew you can find the same in the OT lebush/labash for a garment, robe, clothing / to clothe, be clothes, to put on. Here are some plain passages:
Judges 6.34 But the Spirit of YHWH clothed Gideon...
1 Chronicles 12.18 And the Spirit clothed Amasai...
2 Chronicles 24.20 Now the Spirit of God clothed Zechariah...
Luke 22.49 And look, I am sending you what my Father promised. But stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
I was given the understanding that the temples are like centers of education. The word houses are like grade school centers, while the temples are like higher education so just colleges and universities. Many go to higher education as an investment to increase their capacity in their career. Similarly, we spiritually invest in learning through temple rituals to in his our salvation, but remember, a college degree is not necessary for employment, and neither are Temple rituals in an outward sense necessary for salvation.
Loved this conversation 🤍 thank you Cory Jensen for coming on Michelle’s channel.
"Throat slit from ear to ear
Bowels being cut open.
Tounge being torn out by its roots."
Those are not from God.
Sounds more like a cult. A sex cult
Those blood oaths were put in by Brigham. Most doctrines taught by Brigham and once considered true have been declared false by today's prophets. Much of the temple endowment has been revised as well.
@@dl1130 Yet you probably still are a member of the Brighamite sect I'll bet. The whole thing is a made-up charade.
@@dl1130 This whole religion is a mess. No wonder it is so small and getting smaller
@@sdfotodude This is not just a they problem. It's a problem for all.
I like how he explains the usefulness of the penalties in explaining why there was no 4th penalty. That Christ took upon himself our penalties.
Good episode.
Let me see if I understands this: To go to the highest heaven in the Mormon Church you have to be a Temple Mormon. But to be a Temple Mormon you must give 10% of your gross income to the church. And if you don't or can't afford it you lose your Temple recommend. Sounds like you have to pay to go to the Mormon heaven.
I agree that interpretation is very troubling. I am thankful that the church now simply has us "declare" our tithing status, so we are able to work it out individually with the Lord.
This episode was not meant to ignore or understate the problems. I do think it is valuable to look at things carefully from all perspectives. I appreciate Cory's insights.
@@MichelleBStone There are so many "troubling" things about Mormonism. It's no wonder 80% of members are inactive.
Thank you Michelle and Corey for a wonderful Christ like discussion.
This is an important conversation and I'd like Cory to come back and express more of what he's learned when you both have time.
Michelle, Excellent discussion with Cory. Good concepts to noodle over. Thank you both!
This was a great discussion of the Temple. Thank you both.
This discussion helped me feel like I’m not alone, seen, heard and comforted. 🙏🏼
I am convinced that Joseph Smith was not the author of Mormon polygamy. I would love to follow a deep and thorough research into the true authors of the temple endowments. Was Joseph the author or was it Brigham’s creation. What about the keys of the priesthood? These are glaring questions now that we know the truth about Brigham and his buddies.
Keys deserve their own entire episode because we so misuse and misunderstand that term in the church. If you are interested in my thoughts on the subject please see Chapter 5 - Priesthood and Temple Keys of Completing Your Endowment.
@@coryjensen7060 I agree, when I move back to the States I'll have to check out your take
Are you aware that in satanic ritual the sacrifice is disemboweled, the heart removed (while still beating) & the head is cut off?
Do I believe pieces of the endowment are based in symbolism of the Light? Yes.
Do I believe that one can be taught/tutored by the Spirit while attending the temple & participating in those ordinances? Absolutely.
Is it possible that the original endowment incorporated true & beautiful symbolism that can point one to Christ? It is possible, IMO
Is it wise to ignore the EXTREMELY DARK corruption that was incorporated somewhere along the way (and which I was taught in the temple, in a temple worker training, that we are still under those evil penalties, even tho they’ve been removed) & think they have no effect upon the individual &/or the church? NO
It is a complex & nuanced situation, but to deny that such dark corruption has significant & profound effect on the church & the individual who participates is foolish, IMO.
When I first went through the temple I was shocked because I thought that this is what the Catholic Church did. I never thought we had rituals at all or to this degree. Now my temple experiences are just so, so very beautiful!!!
the BOM doesn't support the endowment as a legitimate covenant with God.
I have struggled with this too. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is supposed to be simple as far as I can tell. But now we're supposed to believe that the endowment is actually hidden in the Book of Mormon. This bothers me as Christ himself told us what his gospel was in 3rd Nephi chapter 27. It is clear covenants were made with God throughout the Book of Mormon and they weren't done in a very specific way. Each covenant made in the Book of Mormon what is unique. Burying weapons of war, or tearing clothing and throwing them at the feet of Moroni. However after the visitation of Christ and his resurrection he creates a new covenant which is baptism and following him. There are no new covenants mentioned after the visitation of Christ. So having these new covenants in the temple is troubling especially when we don't find them in the simple words of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon or the Bible. Joseph claimed The Book of Mormon was the fullness of the Gospel. I don't mind making additional covenants with God. But to teach them as salvation and as part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that's where I struggle. Teaching them to become closer to God and your spouse and all of humanity, I can get behind that and have no issue with it. It's the salvation part that I struggle with.
@@ridersofthepurplesage exaltation isn't a thing. There is not a higher heaven for polygamists
Wow Cory, my experience was almost identical to yours. The only temple prep that I had was my Father telling me, after I went through, that he was concerned about my reference to “pizza hats” when I was sealed to my parents at 8. My impression was that this temple experience was something very profound and spiritual though I had no clue what had just happened to me.
19:00 The temple teachings do seem to be ancient (Egyptian endowment, ancient corenation ceremonies, etc.). But May 4th & 5th 1842 endowment does not appear to have happened, those records were altered. We have no revelation for these the temple. And if there was an oridance both received and perform out said of the House the were building to the Lord (the Nauvoo temple) then it cotradicts the word of the Lord in section 124.40, "And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;". Not to mention what the Lord said in 124.28, "For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood."
Here is a thought to consider, perhaps Brigham used Joseph's work on the books of Abraham and Joseph and constructed the modern endowment ceremony.
He may have taken some inspiration from that. But we can also connect the dots back to the Chocranites who Brigham Young stayed with alone as a missionary. Joseph Cochran the founder would hold dramatized reenactments of the garden of Eden complete with actors and ceremonies. Brigham Young's 4th wife Augusta Adams (who was still married and had children when she married Brigham) was a Cochranite. He married her in 1843. It does not seem like a stretch to me to see that the temple endowments are a marriage of Masonic tokens and symbols and the Chochranite's reenactments of the garden of Eden used to promote spiritual wifery. It ALL comes back to Polygamy.
There is a difference between going through the temple and having the temple go through you. Also, I believe that the question respecting the Law of Consecration asks us if we are "willing" to accept the Law of Consecration, not committing us to living it. Thus, if/when we ever get to the point where conditions are such that we can implement the law, we have committed to be willing to participate in it.
I wish you would do an episode on understanding why Brigham and the other apostles original sealing ordinances were so completely different adopting men to themselves from 1846 to 1894. The first known use of the term "law of adoption" within Mormon doctrine was by apostle Parley P. Pratt; however, the doctrine Pratt referred to was not a sealing ordinance, but rather the means whereby Mormons, through baptism, were said to obtain a birthright as an "adopted" son of God and a member of the heavenly kingdom. There is no surviving evidence that the "law of adoption" sealing practice was taught by Joseph Smith or his contemporaries prior to Smith's death in 1844. However, adoptions appeared on the records of the Nauvoo Temple in 1846, and scholars generally assume that the practice was instituted by Brigham Young. Young was sealed to 38 young men by the law of adoption in the Nauvoo Temple. Wilford Woodruff, the fourth president of the LDS Church, stated in August 1896 that between 1843 and 1894 he "officiated in adopting 96 men to men". Woodruff also stated that by 1885, he had "had 45 persons adopted to me". Woodruff recorded in his diary that when the sealing rooms of the St. George Temple were dedicated in January 1877, Woodruff-who was the temple president-adopted two couples to Brigham Young. Of the seventeen LDS Church apostles who died in the faith prior to 1894, fourteen had persons adopted to them.
The practice fell into disrepute partly because "in a few cases it led to jealousy and conflict between sons for their adoptive father's attentions, and because it had in some other cases caused a scramble for status between potential sons seeking adoption by higher-ranking elders, and between elders by accumulating large numbers of adoptive sons". Thus, as of 1894, the practice of the law of adoption ceased in the LDS Church. I thought sacred temple ordinance doctrines would be eternal and the foundational teachings of said doctrines wouldn't be so easily altered. I guess the LDS God changes his mind frequently.
If you trace the concept from the start then you can see that Joseph slowly evolved it from being sealed to God to being sealed in kingdoms. It then evolved more until it settled into the idea of eternal families.
There is no where in the scriptures that speak about eternal families, yet we treat it like an eternal principle.
Interesting
Well said. I haven't watched the video yet, just getting ready to and I like to read some comments before starting. This was a well researched, thought out comment. Thanks.
@@Telavian We have decided that there is too much confusion in church doctrine so we go by the Book of Mormon and the Bible now and I haven't found anything yet about many of the things we do in the church. In fact Christ tells us that we are to repent, be baptized and do the things we have seen Him do and anything more or less than that is of evil. So we are really struggling about the temple and I am hoping this video will help us one direction or the other.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 Yes, most of the ideas in the LDS church are simply wrong according to the scriptures. Religion should be simpler.
I think the LDS church is trying to change and fix itself, but so much of it is built on the ideas of men that it is going to take a very long time to fix with drastic measures.
Cory--very cool--I will definitely read and listen to all of this!
1:24:47 Why on earth are were they not presented with that explanation of that symbolism. This seems like a nice way to make the extreme, scary, icky parts of the ceremony meaningful today.
They don't even explain the low hanging fruit. IMO the whole thing is very poorly done. People should be prepared more, and taught better. I think it is mostly the blind leading the blind.
When in doubt go back to love God and your neighbor.
29:45 The Nauvoo temple was built after the manner of the Kirtland house to the Lord, with the addition of a basement with a baptistery. Neither building was designed with the intent or purpose of the endowment ceremony in mind. Per Joseph's and the main engineer/architet's statements, Joseph saw the Nauvoo temple in a vision and he made sure that the building matched. The two 'temples' had assembly halls on the 1st and 2nd floors, with classrooms and offices on the third floor.
Let's say for a second that the endowment was from the Lord and given through Joseph. Do we really think that Joseph was building a house to the Lord that wouldn't even accommodate the "endowment"?
Thank you so much for this interview! I love Cory's books!
Joseph Smith designed the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples only and claimed the architecture, ordinances, layout, rooms, etc. were inspired from the Lord. Yet, those temples are nothing like all the temples designed by Brigham Young through today. There is a clear contrast between Joseph Smith’s temple and Brigham Young’s temples. It is remarkable to me the desperate attempt to justify BY’s temple version to ancient scripture, or any temple in history, when it’s not even close to the same as JS’s. Something is clearly wrong. The temple today in 2024 has zero semblance to the temples of old. I have heard these claims the temple script can be seen in the sermon on the mount, the Book of Mormon, the ark and the flood etc, and these comparisons are extremely intellectually dishonest and not based in reality nor are they rational. I know people find good in the temple but it is not from God. Jesus Christ fulfilled the need for temples through the atonement. He did not give the discretion to add more conditions to his atonement through temple ordinances as the Church teaches today. Temples will keep you from progressing and provide the complete opposite result than members naively believe. Temples are designed to entrap souls to the laws of man and will bind them to this earth only for as long as their souls choose to be spiritually imprisoned. Please listen to what you’re truly making a covenant for and who.
My husband and I spoke with some people from the Restoration Branches a few months ago. They said the same thing about the Nauvoo temple: that it was a very different floor plan than the temples built by the LDS.
I've also seen people try and make comparisons with the temple ceremony and scripture, but I've not spent enough time in their arguments to understand them.
I am trying to hold space for the temple and honor the good experiences that some people have in them. As for me though, my testimony is very simple... I've landed on the Doctrine of Christ. I figure that it's a safe place to land when I'm unsure of so many things right now. I love 3rd Nephi 11 and how it talks about not adding or taking away from Christ's doctrine.
@ Thank you for your comment. I’ve researched every single scripture people claim connections to the modern temple and it doesn’t work. Their conclusions are based solely on pareidolia at best. Regardless, I completely agree and also honor the positive experiences members have in the temple. I’m not trying to take that away. In fact I have respect for the temple on some level because I know how powerful intent is with the mind. God will manifest anywhere you intend or expect him to. My issue with the temple is members have twisted the atonement as conditional and added new “ordinances” and conditions in order to achieve salvation. Modern LDS temples are not scriptural, and they’re certainly not from Jesus Christ. My testimony is also simple and rooted in Jesus Christ. I think man has overly complicated eternal progress beyond Christ’s teachings. I don’t need to attend the temple to feel God or Christ in my life. I feel him everywhere.
I agree very much with some of your comment, and I disagree with some of it. I feel there is still more for me to seek and learn about the temple. I don't claim or believe it is the only way to God, but I also know that it doesn't keep us from God. I think it is important how we perceive it, and, like everything, it is individual to each of us and our unique paths and willingness following God.
@@MichelleBStone Thank you for your comment. I actually have so much respect and appreciation for your channel and work that you invest in seeking the truth. I did not intent to imply the temple keeps you from God. We can find God anywhere we truly seek, inside and outside the temple. Every single religious person around the world claims to find God in whatever religious practice they are familiar with, especially with pure and humble intent. My core issue with modern LDS temples are the conditions placed on the atonement that’s not backed by any scripture or teachings from Jesus Christ. I personally don’t need to sit in a celestial room to feel God’s love. I can meditate at home and feel the same love. I know many members value the temple experience and I have great respect for that. It’s what they feel they need and I honor and respect that. Much of the temple script and ritual is between you and the Church, which seems more of a Brigham spin than from Joseph Smith who claimed true revelation from God. Regardless, any place we feel God is good. Thanks for this episode. I could feel the sincerity and humility in you and Cory’s convictions.
@@colt40fly well said
Having the key words and tokens means being or becoming the right answers. It's not giving the key words, it's being the key words. These are emblems of our sacrifice and experience.
I enjoyed this conversation, thank you! ❤
I haven't watched yet. The temple has really soured for me. I can't see how Nelson can be a prophet anymore, so how could he be changing the ceremony to become just right or at least getting closer to anything correct? I turned in my recommend because I can't answer the temple questions to be good or right for a person to enter into it, much less the actual ceremonies in it. The last time I went when speaking and asking questions to what my friends thought, not one of them truly have any idea why they are there. They hadn't thought about any questions I had asked, as if we're all just mindless drones going through the temple motions. I was so tired of going with different people so I could talk about certain things while there, and never did anyone actually have answers. They actually never even think about anything remotely deep about what they are doing in there. Finally after praying and asking if President Nelson was NOT a prophet I received my answer. If he's not, why should I even go inside? The temples are currently all the great and spacious buildings. Jesus apostles taught in the temple, but they didn't make it secret or "strange". 1 Nephi 8:33
34:45....I can't answer honestly about more than one of these questions.The temple in our day is not right. I'd rather go to the mountains. Isaiah 2...we have temple worship, not worship the Lord.
40 minute mark...my thoughts exactly.
If we said this exactly along with the answer here SUPER OUT LOUD...we will be X'D. Do we understand this? This proves things are very wrong in the church.
44:35 minutes, and how in the world would anyone know that the second token symbolism was the baptism of fire and of the holy ghost? I learn that in the BofM, not the LDS temple.
54:30...again Isaiah 2
57:35. And Zion won't need a temple, so this is a huge quandary from what we sre doing as a people. The "city" of Enoch will come back. We in our hearts, minds and body (whole soul) will need to be in accordance with the Lord Jesus Christ AND our Father in Heaven, which the Holy Spirit will be witness of.
The endowment was the baptism of fire and of the holy Ghost and then to enter into His presence.
So much of this resonates for me. Creation, Fall, Atonement- Cory, you are familiar with Jared Halverson’s work?
And then we covenant with, not God!, but the Church.
Why does Paul teach that the "old tabernacle", "an earthly sanctuary" is of the "first covenant"?
Hebrews 9
1 Now the first covenant, in fact, had regulations for worship and its earthly sanctuary.
… 8 The Holy Spirit is making clear that the way into the Holy Place had not yet appeared as long as the old tabernacle was standing. 9 This was a symbol for the time then present, when gifts and sacrifices were offered that could not perfect the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They served only for matters of food and drink and various ritual washings; they are external regulations imposed until the new order came.(the New Covenant - a new heart (the temple of the Holy Spirit) - Deut.30; Jer.31; Ezk.11&36)
I’m not LDS but I do have a few friends that are. Some of those LDS friends are not interested in attending the temple. They told me you can be a good LDS member and not attend the temple. It’s like my Catholic friends who attend church but never take the sacrament. I guess people just tailor their faith to their own liking.
We attend local church as active members but reject the temple and garments. Once I understood the real symbolism, I can’t go back.
@colt40fly thank you for sharing. I can relate at least on some level. May I ask what your understanding of the symbolism of the garments is? I'm very interested to learn more about it.
@ I think my non temple LDS friends just liked the LDS community but didn’t like the tithing part plus they loved coffee.
@ well, that’s a very long discussion but in short, garments are meant to be used as a form of talisman where members give “power” to provide a shield of protection. In reality, that same shield prevents you from connecting directly with God and places the Church between you and God. When I first wore garments, I was told it was for a reminder of our covenants in the temple, and it was also supposed to symbolize the coats of skin placed on Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness and remind us of our fallen state and sin. It wasn’t until very recently it was redefined to associate with Jesus Christ and the veil, which is super ironic to me because it’s the veil that keeps you separated from God. It wasn’t until I removed my garments when I felt reconnected to God directly. People are literally afraid to not wear garments, which should be a red flag since fear is never from God. The real symbolism of garments is isolation from God, as a form of punishment to remind us how unworthy we are and how much we need the church or “covenant path” for salvation. The garment symbols are 100% Masonic and require a larger discussion. Regardless, it’s so childish to me. Once I removed my garments and reconnected to God directly without the Church as a middleman, I can never go back. But that’s my experience. Like I said, people give whatever object power by intent and desire. It’s all mental and if members find value in that, I would never try and take that away. At some point in their existence they’ll need to grow up and see a bigger picture and stop trying to fit God in their small narrow box of understanding.
colt40fly Mic drop
Neo and Michelle retook the blue pill and went back in the MoMoMatrix
Maybe I should too.
Sorry Michelle and Cory, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell in this episode. Christ only with no man standing between us.
Did you watch the episode?
@StompMom5 yes. I now suspect Cory was directed to Michelle by the church to run defense. I was also turned off by his constant book selling throughout the episode.
@@MaryW359 Ha I am so so far off the church's radar that your comment actually made me laugh. In truth, my own faith journey/crisis began in 2002. It has been similar to Michelle's and I appreciate and respect the balanced approach she tries to take with regard to the Church. There was a time when I seriously considered leaving but the Lord asked me to stay and so I try to contribute to the good and help to heal some of the bad but it is not always easy for me. I'm sorry if referencing the books offended, but I am only able to give such a brief dip into the topic in this episode that I wanted to direct those who are interested to where they can do a deeper dive. Completing Your Endowment (the book we are discussing mostly in this episode) is available for free on my website. I don't personally make anything from selling books and I am a nobody in the church.
@coryjensen7060 then I will come to the conclusion that we are on polar opposites. I'm in a place where I don't want to offend the Lord now that he's given this information to me. The endowment is not of God as ordinances cannot be changed, period. I'm looking forward to the re-restoration of all things coming soon. I feel that most members will reject the correct endowment because they'll turn themselves into pretzels making what we have currently as all they need. Look to God and shed the false traditions.
@@MaryW359 Humbly, I think your understanding of "ordinances cannot be changed" is incorrect. For example, assuming that we can agree that baptism is a required ordinance. then one may say that the form and the wording cannot change, right? Well what is the form? How much of it is necessary? Hold the right out and up? Perhaps we should just stick to what the Lord said to the Nephites: (3N11) 25. Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. 26. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water.
But wait, did Alma do it wrong? 12. And now it came to pass that Alma took Helam, he being one of the first, and went and stood forth in the water, and cried, saying: O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart. 13. And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said: Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from the Almighty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him until you are dead as to the mortal body; and may the Spirit of the Lord be poured out upon you; and may he grant unto you eternal life, through the redemption of Christ, whom he has prepared from the foundation of the world. 14. And after Alma had said these words, both Alma and Helam were buried in the water; and they arose and came forth out of the water rejoicing, being filled with the Spirit. (Mosiah 18)
Do you take you sacrement with wine only?
This was wonderful - filled my soul in ways I didn’t realize I needed ❤ thank you both ❤ I still wonder the validity of doing work for the dead - if he has thoughts on that for next time?
Michelle I’m dying to hear your temple experience! But I understand it may be something that needs to be your own.
Yes, lots of things have been removed, from which great lessons could be discerned. The shape of the woman's veil used to be a square. This is in contrast to the man's hat which is a circle. Now the woman's veil is no shape. This is a tremendous loss. The circle and square have tremendous implications. That is now lost because it wasn't understood.
The most important thing about the temple is informed consent. Just like polygamy.. everything that happens in the temple should be considered extreme patriarchy
Yes, and we should be told that they were copied from masons
What do you mean that polygamy is informed consent.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 It was sarcasm.
I’m so sick of hearing about this patriarchy as if it is men against women when the reality is that it is the elite against the masses. I’ve suffered far more priesthood abuse in my life than my dear wife has ever even heard of. Men suffer often even more when they do not bow down to what you erroneously term the patriarchy.
@@sdfotodude Yeah, I'm a little slow.
Moron8:22-23 tells me that all work for the dead those that died without Christ, is a dead work, and a mockery before God. It’s a red flag when he says all scriptures point to the temple. Bom calls that looking beyond the mark, despising the words of plainness. It’s a red flag when he is trying to prove it came from Joseph instead of God.Polygamy and the temple are the same in that God never commanded it! If it’s something you really want to be true, we see what we want to see and must check ourselves.we make his ways ours, it’s just human nature.
The temple never mentioned again in the bom after Christ came. In the Bible the early Jewish Christians held on to their Jewish traditions while just adding Christianity into it. Clearly later Peter and Paul both teach we are temple made of living stones, that God doesn’t dwell in temples made with man’s hands.He meets us where we are at, but we must realize he is closer then any of us imagine we don’t need to plea with him to come to us, for he is in all things, he never leaves but is right there, we don’t have eyes to see. The temple almost creates this unbelief that we have to go there to find him closer to us.we don’t get worthy to go to temple to find God, we run to God to be made holy and realize he was always there. You think we are going to build him a temple? Heaven is his throne, earth his footstool .Christ referred to himself as the temple that would be destroyed and raised again in three days.Because David so badly wanted to build a temple, when the lord told him no, and said another one great and mighty accepted by lord from his line would build it, he assumed it would be Solomon, but he was talking about Christ.
Sadly the great day of Pentecost at kirtland temple never happened, no Christ visitation, no Elijah etc. Joseph and Oliver cowdery never mentioned it in their lifetimes as happening, neither did their scribes, this was only mentioned as happening after they had both died. How could Elijah and Elias come, when we know those are the same person , Greek vs Hebrew way of saying the same name? How could Elijah have come if Joseph always spoke of it as a future event, something to look forward to even as late as the 1840’s? Oliver gave a detailed long account of this event the next day and never mentioned any of this happening , he only said someone else mentioned an Angel sat next to Joseph smith senior! David whitmer said it was all trumped up-yarn,a grand fizzle, he was there.Apostle William mclellin said there was just men who had drank too much trying to pronounce blessings. These weren’t enemies of the church.
Still listening…. Cory mentioned you can’t fake the Holy Ghost. I think you also can’t fake the first one either. You can’t memorize that first one because it’s something that has to be given to you personally. You can’t memorize someone else’s answer to that question.
Have you heard of the claim that Joseph Smith actually got the endowment originally from the Native American Indians? Their sweat lodge ceremony has a lot of similarities to our endowment. The claim I heard was that Joseph and Hyrum chose to adapt what they received from the Indians into a “language” more familiar to the Saints- which was masonry.
It is interesting to me how many places throughout history that some of these ideas show up including in Native American sources. In 1885, H. Clay Trumbull, a non-LDS theologian gave a series of lectures on his research into primitive covenant rites among biblical and non-biblical peoples. It is striking how markedly similar elements of covenant making were found throughout the world in a wide variety of cultures from Asia and India to South and North America including among Native Americans. His work was eventually published in a book called, The Blood Covenant: A Primitive Rite and Its Bearing on Scripture (Kirkwood, Missouri: Impact Christian Books, 1975). Many of the covenant practices of these ancient peoples are echoed in our modern temple ceremony and his book was one of the things that helped me to begin to unravel some of what we have today. While many of these rites were obviously corruptions, the striking similarities among such disparate cultures led me to conclude that much of it descended from an earlier truer source. It seems anytime God establishes something, opposing forces seek to imitate and / or to corrupt it. Hence we find symbols such as the Serpent, which originally was a symbol of Christ, but was usurped and also became a symbol for Satan.
I've heard that claim. Apparently the Ojibwe may have been who gave it to him. In a remarkable coincidence, the markings on temple garments are actually the Ojibwe language as well. Unbelievably they say, according to the Ojibwe, "a great spirit of protection upon you".
I disagree that the bom and Bible don’t contain everything we need ! True there is other sealed portions of the Book that won’t come forth until the church repents of iniquity and has faith like the brother of Jared, according to the bom. Revelation given to Joseph, Oliver and whitmer in 1829 talking about the bom and bible "Behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written, for in them are all things written concerning my church, my gospel, and my rock." This revelation reads this way to-day in the old Book of Commandments it was altered for the doctrine and covenants.
- the BoM clearly is hear to set the points of his doctrine straight, that there would be no more disputation. The lord new we would need to be saved from false doctrine contained in the doctrine and covenants. The minute the Lord brought forth the bom the devil began to plant tears in the wheat. Do we care about what Joseph said more than the words of the Book the Lord has commanded us to use, for our day, the cornerstone? If the bom continues to be the redhead step child of this institution, it will continue to be condemned.The Book came forth written for our day. We must stop down playing! Treating it like it’s just the basics, overshadowing it with false doctrines.
OUTSTANDING! Both sides of this discussion resonate with what the Spirit has been teaching me for over two decades. Thank you both for your honesty and open hearts, inspiration, and consecration (true consecration 🤍).
Cheryl Bruno's new book on Joseph Smith and masonry proves beyond any doubt that Joseph Smith originated the endowment.
It is ALL plagiarized. Even Polygamy
I am looking forward to discussing this more with Cheryl.
@@MichelleBStone He plagiarized everything. Even Polygamy
@@MichelleBStone Keep seeking an echo chamber and stop deleting comments. I'm embarrassed for you.
@sdfotodude
Yeah, I think she has canceled some of my comments also.
And the end result of cancel culture is an echo chamber where one remains incapable of altering one's position.
We all do this to some degree or another. Including me.
Im so sorry. I just can't.
Cory, sincere question, president Nelson feels that the fullness of the priesthood has been restored with the completion of the Nauvoo temple this he stated as you might recall a few conferences back. What is your conviction on the matter as understood by what the Lord said would occur if the temple was completed? I gather from what you said, and correct me if I’m wrong, you mentioned the temple represents the lesser priesthood / law?
Where did President Nelson find it or take it back from?
Section 124.28 For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood.
Yes, we clearly don't have the fulness that could have been restored if the Nauvoo temple had been completed and had Joseph been permitted to remain. As a church we are laboring under a lesser law. But what remains is sufficient for individuals to rise up and receive more if they so choose.
You can read more on this in Chapter 4 and chapter 10 of my final book.
I know as LDS members, that we are trained to accept priestcraft; I would be more impressed if he wasn't making money off of his message.
I don't believe he is at all motivated by money. He gives his messages away for free.
Cory donates 100% of book earnings to charity and our class is connected to our registered non-profit, Latter-day Disciples Inc.
I'm totally ok with people disagreeing with me, but I would like to clarify that I have not ever made a penny from the work I have done on the temple and in fact it has cost me much time and thousands of dollars from my own pocket.l I donate 100% of my proceeds to charitable causes and have spent thousands of my own dollars in getting the message out.
@@coryjensen7060 Must be the fame??
@@godsoffspring4195 Haha good one!! You're joking right??
Wow you have gone way too far.
You never knew me.
You really don't like anything that doesn't fit your narrative
Nobody does
@@PilatesAnne yep. But she chooses to double down... publically.
Everything he said about the penalties was conjecture and opinion. The Lord has not revealed what they meant. On top of this, they were removed, then why were such marvelous lessons removed? Was it because of a survey? Wasn’t this removed by the prophet / leaders? I’m not buying his opinions. We need what the Lord thinks.