Operation Downfall: The Allies' Plan for an Invasion of Japan
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
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On your videos covering this part of history, you really don't mention the Russian contribution to the Japanese surrender. It is as important - if not _more_ - than the atomic bombs.
Granted, I believe both were necessary; without the Russian invasion of Manchuria, I doubt the news would have triggered their surrender. And without the nukes, I doubt the invasion of Manchuria would have triggered their surrender.
The fact that both happened within a few days of each other shocked the Japanese into surrender. And even then, there was a plot to depose the Emperor that - had it succeeded - would have _prevented_ the surrender of Japan.
stop shilling for fake baldness cures. wtfh
I love it when Simon promotes baldness treatments with is beautiful mane of hair
The only reason the war with Japan ended at all because the emperor told his people to stop it was inconceivable that They would not obey him if it weren’t for not for that they probably still be fightingI’ve had the privilege of knowing many Japanese people tenacity And stubborn are the two words That best describe them
Their island... as if anyone can own an island. Can only keep it in good shape if you are cool. Peace.
My father was stationed in Japan as a U.S. Marine in the early '70's with my mom, their Japanese landlord, who was old enough to have lived through WWII, told them people would have fought with pitchforks and rocks had the invasion happened. The surrender saved the lives of millions.
My grandmother trained with bamboo spears and polished bullets, did air raid drills, and learned basic first aid instead of having a real school education. Crazy time.
As bad as the nuclear bombings were, they were the lesser of two evils.
Anyone whose knows Japanese people and spent time with them knows, the surrender save soooo many cuz they would not have stopped fighting.
Thank you for sharing. i have heard this before, but every confirmation makes me feel a tiny bit better about the bombs. i was born 17 years later. Generational guilt is a thing🙏
@@user-do5zk6jh1k thank you for sharing. It helps🙏
My grandpa was slated for one of the second waves of troops to be sent in downfall. He ended up as a MP in Kyoto. Thankful we never had to invade, the bloodshed would have rivaled the Eastern front at a minimum
Perhaps not, the Japanese military expanded 3/4 of their heavy artillery and automatic weapons on the defense of Okinawa.
@@jamesricker3997 even with that being the case the government was actively training pretty much their entire citizen population to fight with whatever weapons they could even if that meant running up and attacking Americans with bamboo spears. It wasn’t just the army American soldiers would be forced to fight against but a nation of millions of people. You’d have children diving under tanks with explosives strapped to their chests, seemingly innocent mothers with babies in their arms, revealing that in actuality it was a bundle of grenades before chucking it at a nearby patrol. It’d make the worst aspects of the insurgencies in Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan look like a cakewalk. Basically if America invaded they’d have to be prepared to be willing to kill anything that moved. The death toll would’ve skyrocketed into the millions on both sides. I shudder to think what might’ve happened had we not used the bomb. It was a tragedy for sure but the possibilities are so much worse, in the end, had I been in Truman’s shoes, there’s very little I’d’ve done differently. Vaporize a few hundred thousand to spare millions, tough call but ultimately a necessary one.
Imagine if the Soviet Union invaded from the north. The Red Army was ruthless.
@HVAC Quality Assurance What does that have to do with how ruthless the Soviets would have been if they invaded Japan?
My Dad was 11th AB, after landing in Tokyo in 1945 he was transferred to 11th AB MP's and served in Sendai then Hokkaido until the Army found out he was 17 and had been in theater for 2 years, this was due to his being accepted to OCS.
I remember reading about two Japanese teenagers going to get trained and equipped as part of the civilian defence force. The author was handed a bamboo "spear" (just a length of bamboo with one end cut at a sharp angle) and told his job was to run at the closest invader he saw and spear them in the stomach. His friend was given two anti-tank mines - his job was to run to the closest tank and slam the mines onto it, fuse side down, destroying the tank and disintegrating himself. The author said that was the moment he realized the war was lost and that all further resistance was just prolonged mass suicide.
I find this account to be really interesting, not least because it brings up the question which comes after his realization that they had lost. That is: Was he actually willing to just go and die when there was no hope at all of winning? Just for loyalty to the Emperor?
It's something I have wondered before - if the idea of Japan as a nation of fanatics who called off their fanatic resistance because the Emperor surrendered is, in fact, a misconception.
Certainly, there were plenty of true believer fanatics in the military. There is plenty of evidence for that. But were the average civilians really of that mindset or did they secretly doubt these ideas of dying for the Emperor?
@@steelytemplarquite an interesting thought indeed
@@steelytemplarI think during that time, the Js believed their emperor was a God. There was a lot of propaganda against Americans, so... most were willing to sacrifice themselves. Say the Battle of Iwo Jima, I think there was only a few found alive cuz they were hiding, couldn’t bear themselves to commit suicide or charge at Americans, so the mainland of Japan would’ve been definitely a bloodbath, as dying proudly, honorably, whatever is deeply ingrained into their culture, or at least during those times 🤔
@@steelytemplar I'm fairly sure they would have. All their lives they've been told their lives aren't important in any other purpose than service. And if the propaganda didn't get you, society would pressure you into acting in that way.
@steelytemplar There were several cases of civilians protesting or even attacking/taking over government buildings to force the war to go on (Matsue incident).
Anyone who states that the nukes were war crimes or were unnecessary should review the actual history and what the Japanese were like during WW2....
the history textbooks never teach the possible effect of hypothetical Operation Downfall.
And the invasion of mainland japan would result on even higher casualties
My visit to Hiroshima in 2013 100% solidified my opinion that the bomb was the far lesser of 2 evils. The museum shook my opinion until as I left an old woman approached me. She asked if I was American. I said yes. She asked my opinion on the attack having gone through the museum. I told her even with what I knew of Japans resolve I now questioned an alternative. She shut that down immediately and without malice or doubt. She said the bomb was the worst thing man ever created. BUT, in that one instant it was truely the only option. She said she was there when the bomb fell. She survived. She then recounted that she had been being "trained" with a pointed stick and told that when the Americans came She and her classmates were to charge them and try to kill a few before they themselves all died and they were ready to do that. She then said something that I will never forget. "The bomb saved my life." She said that with a thoughtful look on her face, then smiled, bowed, and left. I don't care who you are, your opinion on the matter will never matter as much as hers. And her opinion is now mine. And I owe it to her to pass that story on. And we all owe it to her to listen to that story.
My grandfather, who was a Navy Corpsman and slated for first wave on Kyushu said the exact same thing. When the bombs hit he had no expectation of living to see the end of the year after seeing Iwo from beginning to end on the front lines.
I still think that the bombings were wrong, not strategically wrong and not that they might not have prevented more bloodshed, but simply morally wrong as an attack on civilians. All that said, your story is like nothing I’ve ever heard before and truly eye opening. Thanks for the perspective.
The Atomic bombs that were dropped on Japan were terrible, but so was the Japanese resolve... and frankly so was what the Japanese did then. Anyone who doubts this should watch a 2001 Japanese film called "Japanese Devils" or Riben Guizi. The fact is that in war no one is innocent and nothing is easy. You have to make the best of a terrible situation which is never simple and always messy.
My father was in the Pacific and was on Oahu at Ft. Armstrong when Pearl was bombed, and later fought on Saipan. He probably would have been killed, I wouldn't be here along with many other people alive today if the US would have invaded Japan.
Wow. Awesome story! Thanks for telling it!
I really like these more abstract, planning based megaprojects.
The planning of the Pearl Harbor attack and Operation Barbarossa are megaprojects of their own if you want ideas for more videos like this one
I agree. They are way more interesting than planes, boats, and buildings.
I think Simon said he was working on a "Waragraphics".
Operation Unthinkable perhaps?
@@eustache_dauger I believe that 'Operation Unthinkable" was the lisping lead engineer's project name for the HMS Titanic
Me too.
@@megaprojects9649 It would be great if you guys did a planning Megaproject on the Soviet relocation of their war industry and population to the Urals in the wake of Barbarossa, that was the mega project of all WWII Megaprojects!
There is a very good book on this subject "Downfall: The end of the Imperial Japanese Empire". The book looks at decoded diplomatic messages that the Japanese were sending. The Japanese plan was to make the invasion of Japan so costly for the US that they would do a negotiated surrender which included the Japanese remaining in possession of the Japanese home islands with no occupation. The Japanese courts would conduct trials of any accused war criminals. The Allies wouldn't agree to this. The use of 2 Atomic bombs drove home to the Japanese that the US could do enormous damage to Japan while not invading. This fact made the emperor realize that the war couldn't continue.
David Westheimer wrote a novel about the invasion called Downfall, the original title was "Lighter Than a Feather". Westheimer also wrote "Von Ryan's Express".
Have that book and it is great. Richard Franks is a really good historian and author and also has the first of his trilogy out on the Asia Pacific War "Tower of Skulls"
Thank you Simon. This is much forgotten history. My Father was a Marine in WW2. He fought on Guadacanal, Guam, Bouganville, and Iwo Jima. He was training for this operation. They were going to use the entire Marine Corp as a diversionary force. They told him that hthe Marine Corp had not seen casuality rates as high as what they were predicting for this invasion. They would be fighting every; man, woman, and child. He often said if they invaided he probably wouldn't have survived becasue he was in the first wave.
2:25 - Chapter 1 - History
4:40 - Chapter 2 - Battle plan
7:00 - Chapter 3 - Operation Ketsugo
10:10 - Chapter 4 - Wild cards
11:55 - Chapter 5 - Avoided tragedy
- Chapter 6 -
This is one megaproject we can all be thankful never happened.
@4th reich I was going to ask you if you would have preferred the mass casualties on both sides of an invasion, but seeing the user name you use, I'll just mute you instead.
I highly recommend the book mentioned, "The Burning Mountain", as the author consulted both the US and Japanese archives for the actual plans, projections, and TO&Es that would be used, as well as interviewing who he could before he even started the book. It has some dry parts, but is largely told through the eyes of people involved and reads more like a novel than something based on what truly might have been.
Regarding the notion that the bombs were "war crimes", it's cute for people today to pontificate on matters that they never experienced nor were ever involved in. Every WW2 vet, parent of a vet, spouse of a vet, and sibling of a vet that I've talked to have all said, "If they hadn't surrendered, we should have kept dropping them until they did."
The US only had two A-bombs available to use in August 1945. They didn't have any more for quite a while.
@@jakethomson2991 The world didn't end in August 1945...we would have 15 or more by spring and based on my experience, the people I talked to would have used every last one of them to compel an unconditional surrender.
Gutted that book isn't on audible. Better get a real book of it now. Sounds fascinating if based on real plans from both sides. Thanks for the recommendation :)
@@jakethomson2991 - Not true, a third atomic bomb core was being transported from the US by Col. Paul Tibbets for use against Japan when Japan surrendered. After that third A-bomb would have been dropped, there would have been a pause until October for the next series of A-bombs to be produced. Projections for war-time production were around ten bombs a month at first. The end of the war cut further production until 1946.
@@dvwjr79 And it would have been dropped from an RAF Lancaster. Mark Felton did a video on it a few months ago.
The US is still using the Purple Hearts earmarked for the invasion of Japan. Think of all the casualties the US has suffered in its wars since 1945, and we are not even close to running out of Purple Hearts. The land invasion of Japan would have been the greatest horror show in history. Those atom bombs saved millions of lives on both sides.
I was going to tell the same thing.
Yeah I was told that ours were from that stockpile when I was in the Corps.
Do you a source for this or is this hear say? Not saying that I don’t believe you, just wanted to know if there was a specific source that was available to confirm this. If true, this is very humbling and a good point to make when discussing the pros and cons of using atomic weapons in Japan.
@@Fng_1975 I was just told that when I was a Marine and I've heard it from multiple people. If it isn't true it sure has gotten around.
@@415s30 Semper Fi brother
The best arguments for the morality of the nukes i've heard was Dan Carlin episode 42, one interesting point he made was that it the nukes weren't that bad in comparison to what was already happening. Far more people were dying in the conventional bombing raids of Japan than died from the nukes, and if the nukes cut the war shorter by even 2-3 weeks, it would be a lesser death toll than the continuation of the fire bombing.
The Japanese military had also ordered that all Allied POWs in Japan should be killed if the home islands were invaded, which would have added tens of thousands of deaths and made post-war relations even more difficult.
I think to the casual observator the bombs stand out due to the dramatic nature of the events but to those who are more familiar with the topic, they were just one part of a very bloody picture.
Yet those bombing raids didn't get japan to surrender.
@@mikeyoung9810 the military leadership was fully okay with the concept of the entire population being slaughtered (because they expected to survive somehow), in part because they didn't think it could happen.
And then the Americans popped off two bombs and leveled two cities and the entire concept went from distant theory to very real possibility.
There were as many reasons to drop the bombs as there were people involved in the decision to do so. Some of those reasons may have been honorable (save lives in the long run) but others were singularly dishonorable (treating Hiroshima and Nagasaki as live targets for weapons tests). The weapons were indiscriminate and therefore unlawful.
My great-uncle was a Montford Point Marine, he fought in the Battle of Peleliu and Okinawa and they were most definitely preparing for the full invasion of the Japanese home islands.
Salute to your great-uncle!
Thanks for your Great Uncle's service. My father was also a proud Montford Point Marine. He was drafted in mid 1945 and would have certainly seen service in the invasion. His unit conducted practice beach storming exercises in the Caribbean which until today, I never connected to training for Downfall The bomb probably saved his life, and enabled mine.
You got to understand that the "Island Hopping" strategy was primarily based on obtaining island bases that could handle major air bases... The Japanese and the Americans both recognized all potential island bases and fought accordingly...
My father was on the clean up crew at Nagasaki. He said it didn’t look any different than any other Japanese city. They were all destroyed. He spoke to some Japanese mayors of large cities and they all agreed that the atomic bomb gave Japan the excuse they needed to quit. If it wasn’t for the Emperor they wouldn’t have surrendered.
Anyone who says the bombs were unjustified have absolutely no idea what they’re talking about, they’re also the sort of people who when asked what they’d make illegal for the betterment of society they answer un-ironically “hate crimes”
Thats a might fine strawman you've built there! Real sturdy! You should tell your fancy creation that hate crimes are already illegal. You can tell because "crime" is in the name.
@@porkcracklins630 Hate to break it to you, but no matter how triggered someone gets because the wrong pronoun was said, Im still not going to prison
First, they were indiscriminate, which is illegal. Second, there were as many justifications for the use of the weapons as there were people included in the decision. While some of those justifications may have been truly "just," other justifications were clearly unjust (treating civilian populations as test subjects for live weapons tests).
@@drbuckley1 get over it. Children were given chisels to kill the allies.
An old acquaintance of mine is the son of a Japanese woman and an American serviceman. His mom had been a schoolgirl at this stage of WWII, and every student in her school was being trained in hand-to-hand combat in preparation for the American invasion. The Japanese were willing to throw away every civilian life they could in order to protect the Emperor. It would have been a tragic, bloody massacre.
I have been to an old school in the boonies in Japan, they have a whole room full of pictures of young guys in military uniform style and a bunch of wood pieces shaped like rifles they used to train with. Quite an experience, and not open to the public, my wife used to attend the school and got us in and knew where all this was.
My father was a liaison pilot in the Army Air Corps during World War II. When the Bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, he was stationed on Okinawa preparing for the invasion. It's strange to think of it, but the atomic bombs were the lesser of two evils. Because of their devastating power, not to mention the Japanese who let reason prevail, my father survived the war and my sister and I are here today. The lesson is not that the atomic bombs were good or right but that war is evil and wrong because it forces people to make choices like this.
The US has another option to destroy all Japanese crops with incendiary bombs so that huge casualties can be avoided.
Speaking of WWII mega projects, it would be interesting to go through the massive ammunitions production of the US. Considering the enormous amount of munitions dropped on Japanese cities every single day for weeks and months on end, the production and supply chain to bring all that forward was truly a Herculean undertaking.
The atomic bombings were an ultimate mercy. Not only sparing Japan the horrific US led invasion, but also to spare Japan from a likely partition between the US and the Soviets. Could you imagine how the world would look if there was North and South Japan, much like Korea, Vietnam, or Germany? Likely there could have been another war in Japan as seen by actions in Korea and Vietnam. The atomic bombings spared the world these horrors. While horrific, the alternative is far worse.
Curiously, Japan has a history of dividing itself in an East/West fashion, with Kyushu being in the West and Tokyo in the East for example.
Per Richard Franks from a presentation I saw him present on Downfall here on RUclips it was also estimated that 10-12 million Japanese would have died of starvation as well. McArthur had to prioritize food imports in 1946 to avert starvation. An invasion would have been horrific with combat deaths, noncombat deaths and starvation.
personally we should have let Stalin have the whole place and then let his troops do a rape of Berlin on them!!!
Well said!
@@keithmoore5306 that was not really possible the japanese surrended the moment the soviets declared war so the ussr would not have been able to occupy japan
Operation _Olympic_ , the first part of _Downfall_ , would have been a horrible bloodbath because the Japanese very well knew the Americans would invade the southern coast of Kyushu first and had committed the best surviving troops of the Imperial Japanese Army in its defense. It would have taken at least six months to defeat those entrenched troops with the loss of most of those troops and an American casualty rate of (in my opinion!) over 175,000 injured and killed.
Thanks for this one, Simon. Remember suggesting this. Appreciate it.
Downfall would’ve been the largest amphibious invasion ever attempted.
Operation: Reckless, the capture of Hollandia, was considered one of General Douglas MacArthur’s most daring plans, reinforcing his earned reputation as a master strategist.
The only thing MacArthur was a master of was using political connections to survive stuff ups that should have seen him sacked. At best he was erratic.
Shows what you like to pretend to think to know. Read up MacArthur’s biographies.
@@dinomonzon7493 he was a clown, plain and simple.
Look how bad he was caught in the Philippines. No preparation, no proper planning. He was caught by surprise AFTER Pearl Harbour. Not to mention he ignored the war warnings issued before hand. He made a bit of a habit of ignoring stuff like that and the soilders under him paid for it in Korea, just like they did in the Philippines.
He had Caesar's mentality without Caesar's ability. Dugout Doug was no genius.
When it's a better alternative to drop 2 sun's onto a country, it really says a lot about how brutal the fighting really was
Exactly.
Well the estimated casualties to subdue Japan by invasion were over 500K dead american casualties. 10s of millions of dead Japanese. So yeah the fighting was intense.
I highly recommend "Hell to Pay" by Giangreco. The book includes an account of the abortive Russian invasion of the northernmost Japanese home island Hokkaido at the seaport of Rumoi. Even though the area was lightly defended by the Japanese, the invasion was a total failure. The Russians lost a good portion of their tiny amphibious force which was about 1% of what the Allied navies would bring to Kyushu and Tokyo. The Japanese feared the bomb because it would mean the utter destruction of Japan with no chance to kill and maim a million Allied troops while gloriously dying for the Emperor.
The Soviets did occupy the Kuriles, and are there to this day. If they has gotten a bridgehead on the main islands, they would have had a place at the table when MAcArthur wrote the Japnese Constitution. USSR woud have been embedded into Japanese post war development. Keeping USSR contained was among the main reasons we spent so much effort in rebuilding Japan - so the people would not go hungry and vote Communist.
@@OutnBacker the problem was they lost 5 of their total of 30 landing craft in a complete surprise attack against a lighty defended and remote target.
It's difficult to see how an attack on the home islands would have gone well.
@@somethinglikethat2176 I agree, but I think that the Russians were willing to gamble on a small bridgehead, then drop troops in by parachute. They had excellent paratroops in the Manchurian campaign. Had they been successful in the landings - and gotten lucky otherwise, they might have been able to drop a regiment in withina few days. We'll never know unless the archives are searched regarding that failed attempt. The Russians have never been very forthcoming about setbacks once the Red Army began to beat back the Germans. They virtaully annihilated the Japanese in Manchuria.
@@OutnBacker Stalin was entertaining the idea but there was a lot of push back from others.
Those landing craft only held about 200 troops each. With the element of surprise gone, their difficulties with amphibious assaults exposed, their intended target a long way from air bases and next to no possibility of Japanese troops receiving or obeying surrender orders, the likelihood of the attack being successful was slim to none.
@@somethinglikethat2176 Probably right.
The WWII Museum in New Orleans has an awesome display that outlines Operation Downfall. Not sure if I ever learned about it in high school but I didn't remember it so it was new to me. Thanks for covering it again here. I don't think enough people know what would have happened had the bombs not been dropped.
11:21 fwiw, the persistent fallout from the atomic bombs really wasn't all that much. Obviously worse than "no radiation at all", but it's far less than most people expect
When the military planners were faced with the prospect of an invading the Japanese homeland, knowing how fanatic the Japanese defended Iwo Jima and Okinawa.
You can fully understand why the use of nuclear weapons was seen as the lesser of two evils.
They were training school girls. To blow themselves up under tanks with explosives. The Japanese leadership was as insane as it's German counterparts. In the final days of the Third Reich.
that's why they should have left it to the Russians who where sending over a load of troops. let crazy fight crazy
Yeah those bombs were definitely the better choice.
Not really, Nimitz, LeMay, and many others believed the bombings were pointless - plenty of Japanese cities had already suffered far worse bombings casualty wise, and the Soviets decalring war meant there was no real hope of a conditional surrender.
On addition, the Americans had assured the Japanese the Emperor would not be killed. There WERE a small, dedicated group of hardliners that didn't even want to surrender after Nagasaki, but the were a minority and the Japanese government was majority on favor of a surrender prior to the bombings.
The bombings themselves may have swayed a few of those in command, but the majority already wanted peace by mid 1945, and virtually every US Military leader at the time agreed with this sentiment. Look up what MacArthur, Nimitz, LeMay and so on stated in private letters, diaries, etc regarding the bombings.
@@joelockard7174 The bombs were used to show Russia what American now had.
They were not necessary in any way, shape, or form.
Thank you Simon, we hardly ever see or hear of any “what if” scenarios as to what would have happened if the US had NOT used the A bomb to end WWII. The carnage would have been even more severe than the planning estimates as there were a number of hidden rocket powered kamikazes that the US military was unaware of. Today’s generation has had the luxury of the peace and prosperity paid for with the sacrifice of the men and women that fought that terrible war.
An example of just how fanatical the Japanese military was can be seen in even AFTER the second atom bomb attack, a faction in the Japanese army kidnapped the Emperor at the palace, ransacked the place, trying to find and destroy the recording made earlier in the day of the emperor agreeing to unconditional surrender. This recording was (and did) announce to the Japanese people (and the world by default) that Japan would be surrendering to the Allied forces and finally, put an end to the most horrific war in human history.
Also Simon, you made the statement (like most commentators do) that Japan surrendered after the second A bomb attack. Actually, there was another conventional bombing after the second A bomb attack. I believe it was on a petroleum facility at the very edge of the B29’s range. This took them either over or close to Tokyo causing the city to go into blackout. This contributed to the confusion and difficulty in trying to find the recordings as the palace was completely dark except for flashlights, lamps, and candles. I believe this would be a very good follow up to this video. You just cannot judge some of the action of that time frame by today’s society and hindsight knowledge. History must also be looked at in context of the times. That time was one of sacrifice and survival.
Yes, Simon. The bomb was such a well-kept secret that Stalin knew about before Truman did. But sure. Highly Classified.
Those are great points. I found a lot of them covered, including the August 14th/15th B-29 raid on that refinery in Northern Japan (Akita), in Jim Smith and M McConnell’s book “ The Last Mission.” Smith was a 19 y.o. radio operator on that raid.
In addition to the ones in the comments already and the one that Simon cited; there's Conway's 1945. (It's point of divergence is a that the Japanese military junta prevents the surrender order from being broadcast.)
In practice, between the firebombing of Tokyo and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, surrender was more or less inevitable by that point anyway. All hopes that the Japanese had of the Soviets mediating a conditional surrender vanished. The original plan (inflicting sufficiently horrendous casualties on the Allied landing force to force them to abandon the invasion) was gone too, as the Japanese now also faced a Soviet invasion in the undefended north of Japan. The Emperor, having recently witnessed the devastation and slaughter of civilians in Tokyo by American bombs, was verging on surrender anyway. The bombing of Hiroshima was the final nail in the coffin.
Of course, the Allies couldn't have known that. The awful insanity of the Japanese military and government couldn't be predicted. After Nazi Germany fell fighting almost literally to the last man (and fighting well, at that, continuing to inflict casualties on the Allies), they had no reason to think that the Japanese wouldn't do the same, especially after Okinawa. For the Allies, the atomic bomb was the only practical option. Compared to the ongoing firebombing of Tokyo, the atomic bombings were downright merciful. At least the horror happened all at once.
There's only a detail: the Japanese commando that attacked the imperial palace they never reached the emperor, the palace was all the time heavy guarded, they also attacked the radio that would be transmitting the emperor's announcing the Japanese surrender, they almost found the recording, but didn't search very well, because the recording was in a closet under two futons (Japanese blanket?), that's what one of the radio personnel said in a documentary that i saw many years ago, the Japanese commando was kill by execution squad (they were literally executed after military tribunal for attacking the emperor's palace
I LOVE how the navy volunteered the army, while the army volunteered the navy. Then both stopped, looked at eachother, then simultaneously turned toward the camera and said Nuke it! (Ok, maybe not that last part)
Don't forget that the US Army and Navy hated each other during this time. They constantly stole supplies from one another, caused trouble and generally attempted to hinder each other as much as possible. McArthur seems like he would be absolutely horrible to be around.
@@BarnabyBear69 There may have been some of that on the personal level, but the Army needed the Navy to get to the battles in Europe and the Pacific, and the Navy could not defeat a land power (not enough Marines to go around). There was an incredible amount of Army/Navy cooperation and planning that went into each invasion (Europe and Pacific) and the continuous supply of land forces from the US. Even Gen. McArthur understood that. Remember, he presided over the Japanese surrender ceremony on the USS Missouri.
@@BarnabyBear69 There was a lot of inter-service rivalry. Just as there still is. But back then as it is today - if you were a voice asking for help over the radio, nobody would have cared which branch you were in - they were going to come save you. The rivalries were and are there - but everybody knew and still knows that when it comes down to it - the people in the other services have your back.
BTW: the Army-Navy game is this Saturday. Go Army! Beat Navy!
Any animosity the US armed branches had with each other was/is a puddle compared to the frothing ocean of self-destruction that was the IJA-IJN rivalry. @@BarnabyBear69
Something else that hasn't been considered is the fact that Japan had just had massive crop failures. They surrendered just in time for a massive US food aid program to save millions of lives.
Probably what also contributed to that crazy defense plan. If they were about to starve, better die in battle than starve to death.
I used to have a supervisor at a hotel cleaning staff who was Japanese, and she grew up as a child during WWII. Do you know little kids in school in Japan sang little songs about killing Americans and British. She said gym class was practicing fighting, and they all had practice at killing - yes killing in a gym class for 5 year olds - with bamboo spears sharpened at one end. They sang about fighting and dying. They'd been thinking this way for a thousand years, and she figured it would have continued this way if it weren't for the bomb.
Aaaah yes, my favourite text to speech Wikipedia man is back
my father was a captain in the US army in France waiting for transshipment to the invasion of Japan when the war in the Pacific ended.
I had a future Dad, Step-Dad and Father-in-Law that were going to be involved in the invasion of Japan. There are two time lines, if broken, that say my kids were never born.
Interesting fact, one marine division (the 6th IIRC) was scheduled to land on day one of Olympic, and was completely removed from the plans by about day six. The assumption was said division would be worn down to nothing, literally destroyed through attrition.
Idea for video: I *think* was one of your videos, about some of the tombs of the Chinese emperors. One of them is left un-opened today because it is believed it would be an "environmental disaster" to open it - because of the tombs descriptions including "rivers of mercury" being held within. But how did ancient societies safely handle large amounts of mercury - which until more modern times, was previously regarded as a precious metal?
Used slaves and peasants
You could legitimately say that those bombs saved the life of any Japanese person, adult or child, that was still alive after August 6, 1945.
Odds are that during Down Fall either my farther or farther in law would have died being they were both going. I'm pretty happy things worked out like it did.
The update in graphics from the editing process is really nice I appreciate nicer transition and coherent graphics for images and title / transition good job guys
And btw the graphics from "into the shadows" and even "decoding the unknown" are coherent, with their own identity, and the update on mega project is very welcome !
Thanks for pointing out the fact that the Japanese civilians were being militarized also.
I've seen so many discussions on the planned invasion, but none of them mentioned the above fact. It was estimated that the 1st MarDiv would have been combat inefficient after the first week due to casualties.
I wrote the Wikipedia article for the proposed Soviet invasion of Hokkaido. You'd think the Americans (and the British, Australians, etc) would welcome a Soviet move to the north to divert Japanese resources away from the south, but you'd be wrong - Truman wanted the communists to have no part in administering post-war Japan, and an invasion would give the Soviets a legitimate claim to it.
Considering what they did to Germany? ...Yeah, that would have been bad.
... and the Russians still hold the Kuril islands that they took from Japan in 1945.
The deal with the Russians was made 2 years earlier when needed the Russians by the time we got to Japan didn't need them.
To the die-hard weebs out there, the Japan of WWII was a nation that was hijacked by its ultra-racist and hyper-nationalist military. Basically, think North Korea but with no missiles.
I imagine if Steven Spielberg or Christopher Nolan could do an epic movie on Operation Downfall. Could show the horror show such an invasion would be. And how so many more people on the allied side and Japanese side would have died.
I’m hoping it referred to in Oppenheimer.
@@kb4903 If this movie has any value it very well better talk about Operation Downfall.
While the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are among the worst things to have ever occurred in history I tend to agree that they were the absolute far lesser of two evils. The Japanese will to fight should never ever be underestimated. The Bushido culture, so prevalent at the time, didn't know compromise. It only knew victory or suicide of either shame or strategic importance... It's kind of baffling that humans have to capability to look certain death straight in the eyes and charge without as much as blinking. But that's exactly what the Allied forces would be treated to. Every step of the way. Every second of every day. Until either the Japanese were dead or the Allied went home... I'm glad we made friends with them in the end instead.
3 evils
Starvation
Invasion
Nuclear destruction
Starvation would have negated the military loss, but would still have a much higher casualty rate than the bombings
The Japanese did far more effed up things to the Chinese and Koreans than “2 Nukes” ever did. Rape of Nanjing, Unit 731 (Asian Waffen SS), “Comfort Women” (Sex Slavery)… they honestly deserved worse than what they got. Instead we went easy on them because we thought they would be a useful ally to prevent the spread of Communism in the Far East. That’s why we did crap like cover up and pardon Unit 731 members so we could keep the research to ourselves. In fact the nuclear bombs saved more lives than it took for the exact reasons that you just stated: that a land invasion would have resulted in more bloodshed and carnage on both sides but also because of the threat of Russia invading Hokkaido to establish a communist puppet. Not only did we spare their people to preserve American lives but also to prevent the spread of Communism through Asia. If it was for the “greater good” as we say then we wouldn’t have let war criminals like Shirō Ishii get away scot free. It all fit into America’s shitty agenda. Humanity sucks.
Well done, Simon. I knew we had planned an invasion but had no particulars regarding it. Thanks, as always.
ironic that nukes saved lives by being the lesser evil.
This was a great summary. Well done Simon. Maybe you can do one on The Kyūjō incident. The attempted coup against Hirohito to continue the war after Nagasaki.
As you may know, he did do one!
This should be the theme of the next Call of Duty game. The documentary I saw about Japan's planned defense was horrifying. They were training kids to wear bombs and dive under tanks to blow them up. No one would've really one that battle cuz everyone coming out of it would've been f#@ked up.
Imagine growing up as a teenager during the Great Depression, and then getting sent off to war for years. Talk about a bummer!
And yet they were happier and more productive than teenagers today. I wonder why.
@@bob494949
> compares Zoomers to teenagers being thrown into the worst war in history
The math ain't mathing
My grandfather said that one good thing about being in the Pacific in WW2 was having three meals a day because he never had that in the 30s.
There are people who say the bombings were unnecessary- Japan would have surrendered anyway. But Im not buying the theory that the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and the threat of an invasion of the home islands by the Soviets ON THEIR OWN would have convinced the Japanese to surrender unconditionally. The Japanese WANTED the Alliies to invade the home islands, so they could inflict horrific casualties and convince the Alliies that insisting on unconditional surrender wasnt worth it. They needed an extra factor to give in, and that was the nukes.
And the plural is very important, when the first was dropped, they didn't care because the devastation wasn't that different than the fire bombings. But after the second one they thought the US has many more and can destroy every city in Japan with little effort.
The atomic bombs were unnecessary in the sense that victory could and probably would have been achieved without them and without an invasion. The allies were already in the process of destroying Japanese cities very effectively with conventional air raids and very few losses, crippling their manufacturing, killing as many as 900,000 and making millions homeless.
Some members of the Japanese government were already making overtures to the Russians for a negotiated peace prior to the atomic attacks.
@@seang3019 they wanted the Soviet Union to act as a mediator for the peace talks but Japanese terms were totally unrealistic.
Their industrial capacity was already wreaked and most still wanted to fight on. Some in the government wanted peace but those were the same people who failed to prevent war and failed at every turn to successfully push for peace. Even after the second bomb and Soviet invasion they still failed to command a majority in the government and it took the Emperor's intervention.
My uncle was in an artillery unit that had just gotten to Europe when the war ended there. His outfit was then sent to Manila to prepare for the invasion of Japan. He witnessed the destruction of a large motor pool of trucks, jeeps and heavy earth moving equipment to avoid shipping it home. 2 barges were used for this purpose. First 2 bull dozers would then be backed down onto the 2 barges each then the rest of the deck of the barges would be taken up with trucks and jeeps still in there shipping crates. Then these 2 barges would be towed out into the middle of Manila Bay. The dozers would be started put in gear and the whole lot would be pushed into the sea dozers and all/ This went on for weeks.
Great video! Keep up the content Simon! Support from 🇨🇦!
I really appreciate you doing this video. Popular belief today is that the US was completely unjustified in using the nukes, it's refreshing to see a modern take that really shows that it really wasn't as bad as both sides' governments believed the alternative would have been.
I'm just curious about how bad more realistic numbers would have likely been with all of the hindsight, knowing the US was completely ignorant of what the Japanese were gearing up for their response.
I'm surprised how many revisionist claims about the Imperial Japanese mentality are based of appeals to our modern sensibilities. And that some people took them seriously.
Fortunately we're seeing a lot of properly researched and sourced material coming out to put those claims to bed.
This is spot on, and totally flies in the face of the popular notion that the Japanese would have surrendered anyway, without the use of the Bombs. There is overwhelming direct and indirect evidence that they would have fought on.
The US was expecting over 2 million US casualties and between 5 to 10 million Japanese (dead & wounded). The purple hearts that are still being given out today were made in 1945. Just let that sink in.
The Allies were fully aware of what the Japanese were planning to do to defend Kyushu. They knew just how horrific the fighting could be.
@@MrTexasDan
The "Russian excuse" is just that, an excuse, basically mentioned as a reason for surrender to not grant the US sole success for Japan's defeat
My "old man" was a sailor (electronics mate) on the aircraft carrier USS Yorktown, CV-10, towards the end of the Pacific campaign in WWII. He witnessed many Kamikaze attacks on nearby ships in the task force during the battle of Okinawa (1945). He figured if the enemy was willing to fanatically die by suicide for this one particular island, what's it going to be like when we attack Japan itself? My dad told me he basically was prepared to die with the upcoming invasion figuring his chances were quite slim seeing that his ship, an aircraft carrier, was a prime target for the Japanese. Thankfully, the atomic bombings changed all that or had they not, I may not be typing this now!
Oppenheimer should of had dedicated one scene to the planning of operation downfall. Oppenheimer seeing the predicted casualty numbers would have really made him feel conflicted.
Hi Simon, although it was not a fixed or planned military operation, the defense of the Kokoda trail in PNG is one of the most pivotal battles of WWII as it prevented the Japanese invasion of Darwin and Australia as a whole which could have entirely changed the course of the war in favor of the Japanese Empire.
I believe this would make for a fantastic @Megaprojects video of a story that (correct me if I'm wrong?) not a lot of people outside of Australia are actually aware of.
Keep up the great work Simon, I love your channels.
the american planners just assumed that some of the units that went in on the first day of the invasion would be completely wiped out by the third day and so didn't bother writing orders for them or including them in their planning beyond the second day.
"It's quite a common opinion these days to say these attacks were unjustified"...unless you happen to be Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Vietnamese or Burmese
I've heard the ground invasion of Japan described as 'a D-Day every day for a month.'
It's an interesting counterfactual for me, because at the time it would have happened my father was recovering from a bullet wound to the chest in an Army hospital in Hawaii. A lot of the men he fought with would have died during those weeks.
Fighting on the eastern front was a dday every day of the war.
@@kb4903No there were no amphibious invasions on the Eastern Front
@@300thNPC I meant the amount of people who was killed on each side. Dday equivalent everyday.
I like your narration and accent. Good stuff!
My Dad was serving on AKA-1 Arcturus, assigned to Olympic. I was back in the Bronx, less than a year old. Because of the A-bomb, I have a younger brother and sister.
After reading Mathew Finkenbinder’s comment (see below), I was moved by the survivor’s comment (“...bomb saved her life”) but I also wasn’t entirely surprised. Although I’ve never been to Japan (a visit is on my bucket list), I’ve spent a great deal of time researching the use of the atomic bombs and the alternative of a land invasion. Although the US knew the atomic bombs were the lesser of two evils, overtime most of society including many Japanese have come to the same realization. In speaking with many Japanese, one of the main reasons why they agree, is due to the horrific death toll and the extreme pain and suffering when Tokyo was fire bombed. As some may know, it is estimated that between 80,000 and 130,000 civilian died when approximately 16 square miles of Tokyo was destroyed. Their point was that although the bombs instantly incinerated most of the death toll, fire bombing slowly took lives with extreme pain and suffering while it also asphyxiated those who tried to escape. Unfortunately wars will continue but I hope we never see fire bombing or the use of atomic / nuclear weapons again. Peace!
That purple heart fact blew my mind.
They could use airborne troops to encircle the potential landing zones and have the soviets invade as well
It could have easily been a lot worst. Every time someone said the A-bombs on Japan was uncalled for. I remind them of Operation Downfall and the Japanese citizens worship the emperor so much that the US didn't remove him after the war. Just took away all his power and give it to the Parliament and prime minister. You should do a side project video on the firebombing of Tokyo. It is said that the fire booming killed more people and destroyed more buildings than the A-bomb did.
I think the arguement on the oncalled A boms has more to do with the fact that the US did not have to invade japan since japan was loosing hard to the russians, and the russians where planning to go hard on the mainland.
Both japan and the US knew this and backdoor nagotiations where on there way.
But japan not willing to fully surrender, and the US not willing to let russia take japan it was needed to show force on both japan as on the russians.
Japan knowing the US was willing to go far for unconditional surrender. And show the russians they had a legit claim on the mainland
It's hard to justify the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - until you consider the possible alternative. I'm Australian and probably three of my uncles and possibly my father would have been sent over there. I'm glad they weren't. Instead they went on to live wonderful long lives.
Very true, they were both horrific options
Ultimately, can you imagine the fury when after a million dead Americans get carted home in boxes and their parents find out that the government had a weapon of near mythical power that they chose not to use?
While in time people would understand, I'd be surprised if Japanese Americans weren't just lynched when they were released from their concentration camps in the desert
Dude, bad choices all around. The only Bloodless option was, Japan surrenders but keeps all acquired territory during the war. Not even a good one.
Miltary history visualized did a great indepth video of this and hearing the estmated casualty figures from that video give me chills hearing it again did the same
He also has some great interviews with D.M Giangreco on the topic too.
Brilliant analysis
Fun Fact: Russia and Japan have yet to sign a treaty to end hostilities of WWII.
Japan terrifies me I hope to God I never have to fight a war against them. And Germany lol
Wasn't it the USSR? No longer in the chat
Japan is lucky it didn't lose Hokkaido.
@@nanucit That might have been the case if current day Russia wasn't disputing the same territory that the USSR was disputing.
@@landonkirchner7062 those Japanese are gone. There are a few that have that mindset maybe in the yakuza. But we signed a treaty to ensure they would be soft. They have the tech and smarts. But a defense only constitutional rule. So everyone 80 years old or younger has grown up with the will to fight drained of them.
It’s a tech gamer manga society.
Jesus, these days they’d try to bring gundams to the fight 😂
As long as you are not Chinese, you have nothing to worry about!! 😂
Forget the deadliest battle in the war, if DOWNFALL had happened, it probably would have been the deadliest battles in history.
The part that everyone gets wrong every single time when it come to war talks is the difference between civilians and military.
If you ask me , we are all civilians just wishing for peace.
Really changes your perspective when they about everyone that died
Thanks
The comfort women issue might be a good Megaprojects topic considering the size and scope of it. I discovered while in college that my grandma was a comfort woman. It was a shocking discovery.
"Would have become one of the deadliest battles of the entire war..." Yeah, that's why we dropped the atomic bombs on them, so they would surrender and we wouldn't lose any more American / Japanese lives over the conflict. If you look at how the Japanese defended the islands outside of Japan, they would have sent several times the number that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki to their deaths defending the homeland.
I love your channel and support our governments decision during World War II.
My father was at the battle of Okinawa and was aboard the destroyer USS Mannert L. Abele. His ship was hit by a kamikaze and two Ohka flying kamikaze bombs. His ship broke in half and sank. He was also bombed and strafed in the water before other ships in the area were able to rescue him and his crewmates. 84 of the USS Abele crew died and countless were injured, including my father! He had no doubt that the invasion of Japan would have been a bloodbath killing millions Japanese and Americans. So dropping the atomic bombs saved millions of lives! And thank god they didn’t have to invade!
Okinawa always felt creepy to me. It's very well built today but not so long ago bodies covered the beaches and the waters around it a deep red. Couldn't get off that island fast enough. Great people just too much pain on that island ,with little time passed.
Yep, Japan was gripped by the madness of the era, an entire nation practically planning a suicidal defence. A conventional invasion would have dwarfed the casualties from the atomic bombs, to call the bombings a war crime is not to understand an era where life had become so cheap on both sides and civilians had become fair game. Let's hope that period of human history is never bettered in terms of insane violence.
If we had invaded the civilian casualties to Japanese would be the same or worse than with the bombs except we'd have massive losses as well which would leave an even MORE resentful feeling on both sides.
10M+ Japanese deaths, in general (hard to separate civilian vs. military with schoolchildren attacking soldiers.)
With the Bombs ... maybe 150k deaths, and some more later.
The fire bombings killed more people than the atomic bombs
@@MrTexasDan Yup. US soldiers already were hesitant with surrenderig Japanese due to the Suicide attacks.
Imagine if EVERY JAPANESE was like that.
In fact, for this period, the focus is on the US soldier casualty decision plan. At this time, the US and Japan have a huge hatred
Great work Simon
Do a video on Operation Northwoods.
I had two great uncles who were supposed to be part of the Japanese invasion force. They most likely survived due to the dropping of the bombs.
My best friend served in Afgahnistan, in the early 2010s and his Purple Heart is from 1942 or 1944 can't remember which
My father was a US Army Air Corps Staff Sergent stationed at mcChord Field in Tacoma Washington. He was assigned to the medical corps and was ready to depart when Japan surrendered. Although he rarely spoke about the war, he did say he expected to be called up at any moment, and he never expected to return if he was deployed. During the war he married the lady who became my mother and they remained together for the rest of their lives. As horrific as nuclear weapons are, had these two bombs not been used Japan may not have surrendered at all, many millions more would have almost certainly died, and I probably would not be here writing this. The cost of war is terrible and we must never let it happen again.
How about doing a video on Operation Mikado?
Anyone who saw what the Japanese civilians on the islands in the Solomon's and Marianas did when the U.S. invaded knew that an invasion of the home islands would lead to a near genocide as those who chose not to fight or couldn't would suicide.
My grandfather was in the Army and wasn't drafted until late 1944. He surely would have participated in the in the invasion of the Japanese homeland. Had two children prior to being drafted, seven more after the war. I am the oldest grandchild. I have 32 first cousins. Just imagine if he was killed during that planned invasion planned for November 1945.
My father was a company commander in the 33rd Infantry Division, part of I corp, and scheduled to be in the first wave as part of Operation Olympic. As horrible as the atomic bombs were, I am thankful on behalf of my brothers, our children, our grandchildren, and my great-grandchildren, that they at least helped to lead to the Japanese surrender before millions more people would have died. He left Japan as a Major after serving as part of the early occupation forces. While some may question the use of these weapons, I do not.
A nicely researched and well-edited summary of this alternative invasion plan. Thank you.
Simon, you might consider a story on the machinations that went into bringing water to arid Los Angeles in the early 20th century. It involved public officials creating shell companies to buy up farm land en masse to usurp the water rights; and the downfall of the central figure, William Mulholland, was tied to another of his water projects, the St. Francis dam, which Mulholland allowed to be enlarged beyond its original design specifications. After the dam collapsed and killed over 400 people (some say over 600) he retired but he never faced any legal liability for the disaster. In fact, he was retained as a consultant for the water department. The 1970s film Chinatown used elements from Mulholland's schemes to seize water rights for its backstory. It’s a juicy topic.
Not to mention, the firebombing campaign against Japanese cities were far more brutal and horrific than the atomic bombs. Each raid killed more civilians than the bombs did in horrific firestorms, and far more slowly. If they didn't tell you which weapon was used and you listened to the testimony of a firebombing survivor vs that of an atomic bomb survivor, you would find the firebombing account far more terrible.
Curtis LeMay, in charge of the firebombing campaign, favored the plan of blockade and bombing.
My grandfather served in the US Army as part of C.I.C. and was stationed in Japan after the war. My father as well as Uncle and Aunt had their primary schooling there. I cannot remember whether he had risen to Colonel before transfer to Japan or not though. I still have his last Dress Green uniform with the patch for service in Japan.
Courtney Hodges and First Army were brought over from Europe. He was the only 4 star from that theater sent to the Pacific. Says a lot. He's in the photo on the deck of the Missouri right behind the Japanese signer. He was also present at the German official surrender.
Excellent video
Excellent mega project that didn’t happen
I'm currently stationed in Japan. My wife and I recently took a long road trip to Hiroshima and we had the opportunity to visit the A-Bomb Dome Memorial and the Hiroshima Atomic Bomb Museum. It's a very somber and sobering experience even if Hiroshima has developed into a beautiful mid-size city that looks like somewhere we would love to live in (as compared to the huge urban sprawl that is Tokyo).
My wife, who is ethnically half-Japanese, is adamant that the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were crimes against humanity. I disagree with her and personally believe that the two bombs saved more lives than they destroyed, and Operation Downfall is the reason why.
At some point in modern warfare, casualties become a numbers game and minimizing casualties becomes the name of the game. Ironically, the atomic bombs that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives than ultimately would've been lost. It's horrific, yes, but it's a sad reality, and we deal with the realities of the world as we must, not as we would like.
Tell her that all war is a crime against humanity. That’s kind of the point of war. It’s killing people and breaking things.
From my parents point of view - Anything that would shorten the war by a Day was acceptable. Had the US NOT used the atomic bomb that government would have been thrown out. People wanted their sons, husbands,brothers home.
The 3rd Atomic bomb was to be dropped on August 19th.
Los Alamos was instructed to have 15 more on deck by November 1st 1945.
When Gen. Matshall was informed in August of '45 that the Japanese now had 13 divisions in southern Kyushu, he was appalled. He called it "a preview of hell." He knew what that meant and even contemplated asking Gen. MacArthur to move the invasion further north. As terrifying as the bombs were, they ultimately saved tens of millions of Allied and Japanese lives.
The decision of the Japanese to Surrender BECAUSE OF THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT PROVEN BY THE USE OF THE 2 ATOMIC BOMBS saved millions. Missed that minor detail.
The people who argue against the use of the atomic bombs on Japan at the end of WW2 are people who are either ignorant of history or have alternate political agendas to the US. Because as is said in this video the atomic bombings of Japan actually saved millions of lives on both the allied and Japanese side. Japan was not planning to surrender to the allies even after the first bomb had been dropped and the USSR had invaded Manchuria. We can see this in the records of the Japanese cabinet meeting after the 2 events. The Japanese leadership thought the first atom bomb was the only one the US had per information given to them by their scientists. And the Japanese knew a USSR invasion was coming and they had already accepted that they were going to lose all of their territory in China and Korea in any peace deal they got. As was said in this video the Japanese were just fighting at this point to avoid agreeing to unconditional surrender. It wasn't until after the second atom bomb hit that half of the Japanese leadership cabinet moved over to the side of surrender (still only half). And at that point the Emperor was needed to step in to get the surrender to go through and even then the lower ranked Japanese officers tried to overthrow the current Japanese leadership in order to continue the war. It was that ingrained within the average Japanese person that they needed to fight the war until the very last Japanese person was alive in order to protect the Emperor.
I think a lot of people who argue against it base their opinion on modern standards.
However the idea of national suicide being preferable to surrender was widely held among much of the Japanese military and while it seems absurd to us, the Allies had gone through a similar thing only a few months earlier as the Nazis fought until 5 or 6 days after the fall of Berlin and long past any point it made even the smallest amount of sense. Of course the Japanese were even more fanatical than even the Germans which we can see from the fact that no large group of Japanese soldiers ever surrendered before the Emperor ordered them too.
The Soviet military appears to have plans to detonate Mount Fuji with specially made heavy bombs.
The Japanese were anxious to surrender conditionally well before Hiroshima. The Americans knew it. They proceeded in order to test the weapons under actual wartime conditions, not because they thought it would produce an immediate unconditional surrender.