I have to see people play this it doesn't seem interactive. Heads gives u a hidden percentage value increase and tails at least does something visual but this whole tree offers more game play in weak auras rather than for your character.
It’s not really gameplay in weakauras, there’s not much to track to begin with, and if they get rid of being able to avoid flipping, there’s nothing weakauras will be able to help you with
Reading about the coins just has me thinking about this Raziel : You said it yourself, Kain... there are only two sides to your coin. Kain : Apparently so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times... suppose one day, it lands on its edge.
It's strange. I'm listening to how you dislike how you choose to flip a coin, and thinking, those are the only parts of this tree that I like? (Also, like, is it "anti what the design is"? I mean, the tree is what it is and those choices are there.) We're a DoT class, they increased our energy pool by a ton, decreased our energy regen a ton. The design of Sin is to slow down and use our resources at the right time. I don't hate the idea of some random element changing the decision tree. If I've dumped my energy and find myself with 10 heads, don't I want to sit on that until my energy is back to cap? The problem with the spec is, IMO, Kingsbane and Deathmark and Shadow Dance. It's the burst part of our class. It's the possibility of not hitting the right Fatebound procs during CDs where all of our damage is that bothers me. Even out our damage profile (or let us pick talents that can opt-into a flatter profile), and let us play around the ups and downs of coins including when to flip, and I'm kinda down.
I'm not saying that holding a 10 heads buff until your energy is back is the problem. The problem is that we're thinking of ways to hold it FOREVER. It actively de-incentivizes using the tree for what it is. Your last point is sort of the same concern I had where there are "bad" flips. Heads is looking really strong right now if you can line it up with burst, but that doesn't mean that Tails is worthless, it's still damage you get, so the consistency in that regard is still there. It is still RNG overall though so procs will be procs, which I'm not a fan of We'll have to see how any baseline tree changes affect things
Best case scenario is tails mimics 5% of your damage into cosmic, like the void elf racial. Hopefully Deathstalker, with its edgy name ,isn't a stinker.
My 2 cents about the streak: Instead of giving extra benefits AS you get the same flips, you could instead just get a buff after you get to, say, 5. If you would roll 5 heads, you would get a temporary extra 5% dmg increase. If you roll 5 tails, you proc a beacon hit, idk. It wouldnt compensate trying to "avoid flips" because you want to go to 5, but Rolling the same value also doesnt give you much benefit until you get to the stack value that gives you the reward, which makes getting different flips give more "direct reward". Aside from tuning, from a pure "go with the flow" perspective, you would either keep proccing dmg amps or cosmic dmg hits, or get a streak and get an extra cool proc. Anyway, gonna add a sound weak aura of Dante from DMC saying "jackpot" everytime I great a good streak.
honestly that just sounds like trying to solve the issue of having "bad" flips by making it way more convoluted and adding more rng. By gating it behind a roll of 5, you're not actually fixing the core issue, you're probably actually making it worse. Now instead of heads or tails being undertuned and being the "bad" flip, whatever breaks the chain is bad. And that already semi-happens, but it's a lot easier to swallow because the increase from flipping in a row is pretty low. Locking more power behind flipping X times in a row just increases the spread of rng, makes breaking the chain feel worse, and doesn't address any of the balance concerns super easy fix is just make it flip on every finisher including slice and dice
@@whispyr5793 But with Sin's current dmg profile of having a lot of it baked into KB windows, isn't it kinda impossible to make the rolls balanced? It would likely be: "during KB is nice to have the dmg amp, but outside of it is better to have the dmg proc". Which COULD give a "benefit" of rolling different flips on different occasions, but, at the same time, make it feel worse if you roll the wrong one at said time. The idea of keeping the streak lower is because you have mechanisms in the tree that allow you to "control" your rolls, like inevitability, and the increased chance to repeat the flip if using envenom. The longer the streak you need, the lower your chance of actually getting it, no?
@@maires9157 there's no guarantee that we're bound to kingsbane in 11.0 but the issue kinda is that by locking the buff after 5 in a row, you're making it feel so much worse for 1-4 , which is the majority of the time. Yes when you get to 5 it'll be controlled or whatever, but that means the tree does nothing outside of that, which is real cringe. Right now the tails buff is stronger during cooldowns anyway so I think it's not that big of a problem
All memes and jokes aside, I like the **idea** behind the tree, but man.. this seems more like a chore and less like an awesome bit of flavor added to my spec that I can play around. Feeling really jelly looking at DKs right now.
im dreading Deathstalker, i cant believe that after almost 20 years of playing rogue, and nothing else, im considering a reroll after recent assasination changes and hero talent previews I already took break for s4 Deathstalker and talent changes are my last hope
Their gonna ruin rogue for sure. Rogue biggest issue besides outlaw is entering stealth more often. Make a tree thats focus around being stealth more often and adjust the damage of abilities to balance it. Assassination needs like make CT spread garrote/rupture in area of main target with bleed but at like 30% damage, that might help the spec out a lot more than rng coin tossing
The fact that the best part of this hero tree to me is not even the main thematic component of the tree is pretty funny lol (Deal Fate). Deal Fate should be in the Rogue tree honestly lol lame that its on this kind of 'meh' tree that we might not even take depending on how good deathstalker will be. Also what would we even have to drop for CB? talents seems so terrible to have to drop some good talents for just for the hero tree. Thanks for the breakdown vid!!
I played with double lethality + acrobatic strikes for most of farm in season 3 instead of alacrity+deeper strat, probably would just drop acrobatic for cold blood and make that work in general though idk, deal fate seems insane but the flips are also really good. if you get a 3 in a row that's 7% damage on everything, and the cosmic damage is probably around there too. And cosmic damage includes nature damage, so good chance that it works with zoldyck and caustic. Can't confirm that though until the servers come back up after the weekend. We'll see
@@whispyr5793 Yea it does seem like a just set it and forget it type of tree the buffs will come which isnt terrible I guess lol As long as we dont end up doing degenerate stuff like you mentioned about wanting to stay on the damage buff that we built up so we stop finishing on 5+ lol Curious to see indeed. Thanks again for the breakdown keep it up!!
I think the fact that the best case for this tree being that it’s completely passive and has little effect on output says a lot. Literally flipping a coin to see if you do more or less damage is not a fun mechanic, but the theme is pretty cool I guess. Seeing how incredibly terrible Trickster is makes me pause to even give feedback on this tree because it could be so much worse. I’m just grateful that this tree doesn’t eat your defensive and utility spells to do slightly more damage with a significantly more annoying rotation.
Literally flipping a coin to see if you do more or less damage is not a fun mechanic To be fair, you get more damage either way, it's just in a different form. It's not like you flip and lose, you always get something out of it at the end, and chaining them together will be pretty frequent. I don't think it's really all that bad
Am i the only one who thinks this rng play style just feels bad? I dont like my damage being rng 1% much less 14%. The thought of chain pulling in mythic plus seems dumb as well. We lose so much damage if we dont get a re stealth as sin... Now the tank has to give us a stealth global but also pull in ten seconds. Toxic rogues are gonna be pulling for tanks lol. Better drink quickly healers.
There's already so much rng in the game from just a baseline 5% swing on abilities to weapon procs and trinket procs and crit chance and poison application, I don't think it's going to be too awful compared to what we had in dragonflight. Definitely worse and definitely not great to have, but nothing earthshattering. We actually prefer chain-pulls over restealths and always have, the damage loss from losing restealths is a giant bigfoot in the community, everyone claims to have seen it but no one can prove it exists.
@@whispyr5793 >We actually prefer chain-pulls over restealths and always have, the damage loss from losing restealths is a giant bigfoot in the community, everyone claims to have seen it but no one can prove it exists. While this may be true if played correctly in majority of pugs i 100% would rather be able to restealth and apply IC bleeds then have a tank "chain pull" one mob with expiring bleeds and being forced to manually dot 5 new targets couldn't care less about dmg, its just a massive annoyance to not be able to restealth most of the time
@@wapniak666 and that's fair enough. If it feels bad to you, it feels bad. End of story, and I agree with you. I'm simply responding to the claim that we lose a ton of damage. And yeah, pug tanks are pretty garbage at chaining correctly, but that's more of a skill issue on the tanks, not on the design of the spec
I'm no pro rogue by any means. Just don't see how it's not a damage loss with no re stealth. If you chain pull two 5 pack mobs at a high enough key level having to manually re apply bleeds to separate targets just seems like lost damage. I don't expect you to explain this in detail in a RUclips comment but losing the multi target bleed spread and the silence just feels bad. Is there somewhere I can read about this chain pulling damage values stealth vs no stealth? Cause I have yelled at my tank buddy for not letting me re stealth and now I feel bad haha.@@whispyr5793
@@anthonytgameaddict it's actually easier than that. Removing the ability to use stealth/vanish/shadow dance from the spec accounts for about 5% of the specs damage in a key. Removing the downtime between packs by chaining is a larger dps gain than that. You deal no damage in the time where you aren't hitting anything, so being able to hit something at all times is just more efficient use of time. It's definitely a damage loss with no restealth. Not arguing that, you do lose damage. But the upsides of chaining outweigh that easily
The more I think about it, the less I hate it honestly. Yes it's RNG but at least you're getting something every time you flip, it's not a win/lose, it's more like win1/win2. Changing my perspective like that has done wonders for how I think about the tree
This is the worst tree so far.and i thought feral and survival had it bad. Jeeeeesus christ literally coinflipping? Well it is clearly the outlaw tree. Let's hope deathstalker is better.
@whispyr5793 i mean best case scenario its entirely passive and stil rng as fuck. Its everything i hate about class design. It's random proc: get x stat. Just blergh
Legend says, if you get 20 of the same Coin Flip in a row... Whispyr manifests where you live and gives you a thumbs up.
Can't thank you enough for your great and to the point vids! Really has been a game changer for me
I'm glad you're enjoying them, much love
I have to see people play this it doesn't seem interactive. Heads gives u a hidden percentage value increase and tails at least does something visual but this whole tree offers more game play in weak auras rather than for your character.
It’s not really gameplay in weakauras, there’s not much to track to begin with, and if they get rid of being able to avoid flipping, there’s nothing weakauras will be able to help you with
Reading about the coins just has me thinking about this
Raziel : You said it yourself, Kain... there are only two sides to your coin. Kain : Apparently so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times... suppose one day, it lands on its edge.
It's strange. I'm listening to how you dislike how you choose to flip a coin, and thinking, those are the only parts of this tree that I like? (Also, like, is it "anti what the design is"? I mean, the tree is what it is and those choices are there.)
We're a DoT class, they increased our energy pool by a ton, decreased our energy regen a ton. The design of Sin is to slow down and use our resources at the right time. I don't hate the idea of some random element changing the decision tree. If I've dumped my energy and find myself with 10 heads, don't I want to sit on that until my energy is back to cap?
The problem with the spec is, IMO, Kingsbane and Deathmark and Shadow Dance. It's the burst part of our class. It's the possibility of not hitting the right Fatebound procs during CDs where all of our damage is that bothers me. Even out our damage profile (or let us pick talents that can opt-into a flatter profile), and let us play around the ups and downs of coins including when to flip, and I'm kinda down.
I'm not saying that holding a 10 heads buff until your energy is back is the problem. The problem is that we're thinking of ways to hold it FOREVER. It actively de-incentivizes using the tree for what it is.
Your last point is sort of the same concern I had where there are "bad" flips. Heads is looking really strong right now if you can line it up with burst, but that doesn't mean that Tails is worthless, it's still damage you get, so the consistency in that regard is still there. It is still RNG overall though so procs will be procs, which I'm not a fan of
We'll have to see how any baseline tree changes affect things
Deathstalker is rogues last hope.
prayge
This aged like milk.
@@Splootzi Looks pretty good for PVP which is all I care about :)
Best case scenario is tails mimics 5% of your damage into cosmic, like the void elf racial. Hopefully Deathstalker, with its edgy name ,isn't a stinker.
My 2 cents about the streak:
Instead of giving extra benefits AS you get the same flips, you could instead just get a buff after you get to, say, 5. If you would roll 5 heads, you would get a temporary extra 5% dmg increase. If you roll 5 tails, you proc a beacon hit, idk. It wouldnt compensate trying to "avoid flips" because you want to go to 5, but Rolling the same value also doesnt give you much benefit until you get to the stack value that gives you the reward, which makes getting different flips give more "direct reward".
Aside from tuning, from a pure "go with the flow" perspective, you would either keep proccing dmg amps or cosmic dmg hits, or get a streak and get an extra cool proc.
Anyway, gonna add a sound weak aura of Dante from DMC saying "jackpot" everytime I great a good streak.
honestly that just sounds like trying to solve the issue of having "bad" flips by making it way more convoluted and adding more rng. By gating it behind a roll of 5, you're not actually fixing the core issue, you're probably actually making it worse. Now instead of heads or tails being undertuned and being the "bad" flip, whatever breaks the chain is bad. And that already semi-happens, but it's a lot easier to swallow because the increase from flipping in a row is pretty low. Locking more power behind flipping X times in a row just increases the spread of rng, makes breaking the chain feel worse, and doesn't address any of the balance concerns
super easy fix is just make it flip on every finisher including slice and dice
@@whispyr5793 But with Sin's current dmg profile of having a lot of it baked into KB windows, isn't it kinda impossible to make the rolls balanced? It would likely be: "during KB is nice to have the dmg amp, but outside of it is better to have the dmg proc". Which COULD give a "benefit" of rolling different flips on different occasions, but, at the same time, make it feel worse if you roll the wrong one at said time. The idea of keeping the streak lower is because you have mechanisms in the tree that allow you to "control" your rolls, like inevitability, and the increased chance to repeat the flip if using envenom. The longer the streak you need, the lower your chance of actually getting it, no?
@@maires9157 there's no guarantee that we're bound to kingsbane in 11.0
but the issue kinda is that by locking the buff after 5 in a row, you're making it feel so much worse for 1-4 , which is the majority of the time. Yes when you get to 5 it'll be controlled or whatever, but that means the tree does nothing outside of that, which is real cringe. Right now the tails buff is stronger during cooldowns anyway so I think it's not that big of a problem
All memes and jokes aside, I like the **idea** behind the tree, but man.. this seems more like a chore and less like an awesome bit of flavor added to my spec that I can play around.
Feeling really jelly looking at DKs right now.
im dreading Deathstalker, i cant believe that after almost 20 years of playing rogue, and nothing else, im considering a reroll after recent assasination changes and hero talent previews
I already took break for s4
Deathstalker and talent changes are my last hope
Just recently switched from maining rogue for 20 years to havoc dh. It's been a blast
Bit of a tip: Try not to have music that has vocals as you're speaking.
Their gonna ruin rogue for sure. Rogue biggest issue besides outlaw is entering stealth more often. Make a tree thats focus around being stealth more often and adjust the damage of abilities to balance it. Assassination needs like make CT spread garrote/rupture in area of main target with bleed but at like 30% damage, that might help the spec out a lot more than rng coin tossing
The fact that the best part of this hero tree to me is not even the main thematic component of the tree is pretty funny lol (Deal Fate). Deal Fate should be in the Rogue tree honestly lol lame that its on this kind of 'meh' tree that we might not even take depending on how good deathstalker will be. Also what would we even have to drop for CB? talents seems so terrible to have to drop some good talents for just for the hero tree. Thanks for the breakdown vid!!
I played with double lethality + acrobatic strikes for most of farm in season 3 instead of alacrity+deeper strat, probably would just drop acrobatic for cold blood and make that work
in general though idk, deal fate seems insane but the flips are also really good. if you get a 3 in a row that's 7% damage on everything, and the cosmic damage is probably around there too. And cosmic damage includes nature damage, so good chance that it works with zoldyck and caustic. Can't confirm that though until the servers come back up after the weekend. We'll see
@@whispyr5793 Yea it does seem like a just set it and forget it type of tree the buffs will come which isnt terrible I guess lol As long as we dont end up doing degenerate stuff like you mentioned about wanting to stay on the damage buff that we built up so we stop finishing on 5+ lol Curious to see indeed. Thanks again for the breakdown keep it up!!
I think the fact that the best case for this tree being that it’s completely passive and has little effect on output says a lot. Literally flipping a coin to see if you do more or less damage is not a fun mechanic, but the theme is pretty cool I guess.
Seeing how incredibly terrible Trickster is makes me pause to even give feedback on this tree because it could be so much worse. I’m just grateful that this tree doesn’t eat your defensive and utility spells to do slightly more damage with a significantly more annoying rotation.
Literally flipping a coin to see if you do more or less damage is not a fun mechanic
To be fair, you get more damage either way, it's just in a different form. It's not like you flip and lose, you always get something out of it at the end, and chaining them together will be pretty frequent. I don't think it's really all that bad
when people who only pve look at blatent pvp talents and just can't figure out what they would ever be used for. 🤣😭
poggers
Poggers indeed
Am i the only one who thinks this rng play style just feels bad? I dont like my damage being rng 1% much less 14%. The thought of chain pulling in mythic plus seems dumb as well. We lose so much damage if we dont get a re stealth as sin... Now the tank has to give us a stealth global but also pull in ten seconds. Toxic rogues are gonna be pulling for tanks lol. Better drink quickly healers.
There's already so much rng in the game from just a baseline 5% swing on abilities to weapon procs and trinket procs and crit chance and poison application, I don't think it's going to be too awful compared to what we had in dragonflight. Definitely worse and definitely not great to have, but nothing earthshattering.
We actually prefer chain-pulls over restealths and always have, the damage loss from losing restealths is a giant bigfoot in the community, everyone claims to have seen it but no one can prove it exists.
@@whispyr5793 >We actually prefer chain-pulls over restealths and always have, the damage loss from losing restealths is a giant bigfoot in the community, everyone claims to have seen it but no one can prove it exists.
While this may be true if played correctly in majority of pugs i 100% would rather be able to restealth and apply IC bleeds then have a tank "chain pull" one mob with expiring bleeds and being forced to manually dot 5 new targets
couldn't care less about dmg, its just a massive annoyance to not be able to restealth most of the time
@@wapniak666 and that's fair enough. If it feels bad to you, it feels bad. End of story, and I agree with you.
I'm simply responding to the claim that we lose a ton of damage. And yeah, pug tanks are pretty garbage at chaining correctly, but that's more of a skill issue on the tanks, not on the design of the spec
I'm no pro rogue by any means. Just don't see how it's not a damage loss with no re stealth. If you chain pull two 5 pack mobs at a high enough key level having to manually re apply bleeds to separate targets just seems like lost damage. I don't expect you to explain this in detail in a RUclips comment but losing the multi target bleed spread and the silence just feels bad. Is there somewhere I can read about this chain pulling damage values stealth vs no stealth? Cause I have yelled at my tank buddy for not letting me re stealth and now I feel bad haha.@@whispyr5793
@@anthonytgameaddict it's actually easier than that. Removing the ability to use stealth/vanish/shadow dance from the spec accounts for about 5% of the specs damage in a key. Removing the downtime between packs by chaining is a larger dps gain than that. You deal no damage in the time where you aren't hitting anything, so being able to hit something at all times is just more efficient use of time. It's definitely a damage loss with no restealth. Not arguing that, you do lose damage. But the upsides of chaining outweigh that easily
Oh man, I don't like this tree, not even a bit :s
The more I think about it, the less I hate it honestly. Yes it's RNG but at least you're getting something every time you flip, it's not a win/lose, it's more like win1/win2. Changing my perspective like that has done wonders for how I think about the tree
it sounds absolute terrible
Given how much Outlaw players are bothered about RNG, I think I'm not really interested in this.
This seems very lacking in fun
bro, whats with the music during this video. Maybe i'm old, but i assume if people are interested in the content, we dont need music.
This is the worst tree so far.and i thought feral and survival had it bad. Jeeeeesus christ literally coinflipping?
Well it is clearly the outlaw tree. Let's hope deathstalker is better.
seems to play fine tbh but I see why people hate it
@whispyr5793 i mean best case scenario its entirely passive and stil rng as fuck. Its everything i hate about class design. It's random proc: get x stat. Just blergh
@@maxw565 is the outlaw tree not available for testing yet?
@MostlyFish21 you're asking the wrong guy my friend. I certainly don't have alpha
i dont like my dps being dependent on rng, please blizz dont make even assa casinorogue like you did with combat rogue