Well, i believe in artistic expression , yet the "expression" part counters some other arguments you've made. You have said fiction is fiction, yet expression is like expressing how you feel. noun the action of making known one's thoughts or feelings. "the prisoners developed a dialect as an everyday means of expression" Just wanted to say that
Artistic Expression isn’t always how you feel. Artistic Expression can also be exploring new ideas, dynamics, traits, etc I draw weird colorful aliens a lot, does that mean I feel like a weird colorful alien? No lmao that’s not how art works.
What's even funnier is that Federal Law (in the USA) doesn't make lolicon/shotacon illegal. Most people cite the outdated and since said to be unconstitutional "PROTECT act" which does not have any actual impact on current USA justice and law. USA law ACTUALLY states that the content must contain a real child or be indistinguishable from one in order to count as CSEM or CSAM (depending on the content). The only reason someone would be arrested for lolicon in the USA is because they were also charged with another crime or were spreading or harboring real CSEM/CSAM.
sorry but respectfully I disagree with this one MG and l'll explain why as someone who was once stuck in the proship community and a victim of it Before I start I want to state that I was not able to watch the full video due to triggering subjects so please keep that in mind This also isn't a hate comment just some criticism Tw for: r@pe will use the 🍇 emoji in replacement, abuse, paraphilia, and other things along those lines. I am all for artistic freedom even if dark products when it doesn't hurt anybody. But the proship community actively leads to grooming and paraphilias I have personal experiences to back this up and originally had sources but I actually had to repost this comment because I believe it was taken down do to spam because of the link I added.. 1. "It's fiction" or "it's a coping mechanism" is often a debate. Fiction can affect reality though. In the early to middle 2010's when amino was popular the proship community was ramped and actually allowed to take place without often having consequences. So at that time when those kind of things were allowed it really showed how wrong this was. I personally was groomed by these communities to believe children X adult or abuser X victim and stuff with 🍇 is okay and I know other people very close to my age at the time who do to. And because of this I still am affected by hypersexuality and paraphilia (specifically 🍇 paraphilia and being attracted to people way older then me) this also normalized these relationships to me and made me more easily manipulated and abused. It's also proven that paraphilias are caused by conditioning either purposeful or accidental and proshipping falls under that category And even it you don't count minors being involved, adults can be given paraphilias. And the more extreme paraphilias is p3dophili@ (sorry for the censoring don't want RUclips to delete this comment) but this means that adults can be turned into p3d0s through this. 2. Therapist only recommend this as a coping mechanism when done by adults who can handle the stuff and any therapist that recommends children to do content like this is a bad therapist. And also in no way should something like this be posted online 3. The third section is on how to do it correctly First no minor and adult or 🍇 situation should be sexualized this harms people and conditions the user to normalize these things instead of heals. You can write about these things but making it "loving and cute" is not okay. I'm currently writing a story where one of the main characters love interest is manipulative at first. This sometimes is considered proshipping but I feel it's inherently separated because how I'm doing it. The manipulation is seen as dark and understood as not okay even if they inevitably end in a happy relationship that's when the manipulation is gone and it's all highly metaphorical. Not saying this as a "I'm better" but just recommendations on how to handle these topic's without harming yourself or others And final recommendations. 1. ONLY FOR ADULTS if you really need an outlet I suggest the kInk community. Most kinks are a mix of both sfw and nsfw and because it's done more personally (between you and another partner or a few other partners) so people who aren't easily harmed probably won't be affected and you have better control on content.. and the understanding that it's dark and only okay in fantasy is wayy more clear. and for minors, only do proshipping with very small friend groups or don't share it online please.. you are only vulnerable for harm this way. Please keep this in mind in the future Tldr: proship causes grooming and sexual disorders such as hypersexuality or paraphilias and it's often only recommended as an absolute need for now to keep you from doing worse.. there's also safer way to do it (read the last two paragraphs above) Hoping this comment doesn’t get deleted again
Exactly! I'm not a proshipper I just don't give a fuck about things but if you're gonna make something explicit then tag it. I don't care what you do as long as it isn't irl illegal activity, but like let me avoid the shit I don't wanna see if you're gonna make things that are explicit? Also that's not the definition of proshipping, I feel like I could more easily call it explicit content. Proshipping is the belief that people shouldn't be harassed for ships or media as long as they're fictional. I think comshipping or darkshipping is actually shipping them (idk so check me if I'm wrong) Also, if a proshipper makes explicit content, make it so kids can't find it!! The issue is that people don't appropriately tag things so you have to be 18+ to read/watch/see whatever the harmful situation is. Explicit content isn't inherently bad (to exist) but it can definitely hurt folks if the people who make it don't tag it appropriately. (Btw this is me agreeing with you and adding my own points, I'm not trying to be rude :D)
Yeah, pretty much. One thing tho: The proshipping belief is based on anti-harassment. A proshipper can think that 🍇 fanfic is disgusting but still not harass people over it. I think you can be critical of the way something is written. But if you don’t like how it’s written, harassment will do nothing. As long as everything is properly tagged/warned, you can choose to read or not read it & not harass anyone Also I don’t really see this as disagreeing w/ mg
@@Furiitha096 genuinely why do we need a term for not harassing ppl.. I wish people could just be good people and not harass but anyways the problem is that most the time pro shippers might mean anti harassment but it also has gained a double meaning of being okay with glorified dark media. Even if it’s not the original meaning this is the meaning that is now spread and that even a lot of proshippers believe so the word now has double meaning. I dont think anyone should be harassed but I do think we shouldn’t normalize something so unhealthy and dangerous especially when the community allows minors in their almost completely sexual community. Edit: btw no hate to you this is explaining I’m very tried and autistic so I might seem aggressive Also I am disagreeing with MG because MG literally stated in one of her comments that she thinks that lolicon and draw cp should just be ignored and we should mind our business but no you shouldn’t and correcting and reporting there is so important ofc don’t harass but telling a person what they’re doing is gross isn’t harassment
@@xxmushroom.girlxxmax wouldn’t be a “pro-shipper” nor “anti” Max wouldn’t be involved in stupid internet drama, he’d be solving crimes with his loving husband ❤
The counter argument of “reaction image saying you’re stupid” is my biggest pet peeve. All you’re gonna do is show a low quality of SpongeBob saying no?? And you expect me to take you seriously????
Oh Lord, I could’ve barely hear what they were saying so I had to turn on the captions. Also I do believe that there avatar has color changing abilities.
42:42 wonder why antis always call it that, maybe because if they called it what it was (Child Sexual Abuse Material/Child Sexual Exploitation Material) their argument completely falls flat, because you can't abuse/exploit a fictional character?
Personally I think both CP and CSEM are equally important terms, and I usually use the term CP because it’s both easier to say and more widely known and understood, though I do like the new term’s disregard of fictional content because real life abuse should NEVER be considered on the same level as fictional characters.
you can't abuse a fictional character. that much is true. but the romanticisation and the positive depiction of these themes is the problem. NOBODY is arguing that the creators of proship media are abusing the characters they ship. they're saying that there is zero proship fiction that genuinely takes the issues it discusses seriously without sexualising them.
@@Niklaus_mikaelson_TVD that's a great point, but prn is a very exploitative industry and a lot of the actors (especially female) are coerced or forced into making those videos without consent :(
@@love--dive than that isn’t porn then that’s explosion. Or the right term is Non-Consensual Intimate Images or NCII. It includes video in the term too even if it says images
the "anti's bullshit" in question being... why you shouldn't glorify r*pe, CSEM, b*astiality and inc*st, among many other things? idc, proshippers are WEIRD for romanticising media that not only normalising disgusting issues but also encouraging them and creating a safe space for the degenerates who would participate in this behaviour in real life given the chance. give me one valid reason that you would WANT to see these themes discussed positively.
This makes me wonder about how would anti-shippers say about songs that romantizied abuse? Mainly I am saying I have never heard anyone complaining about certain songs that does that. Though, I'm not as active in social media stuff as I used too. Anyways, love your videos! Rewatched your whole commentary playlist yet again lol. Edit: Some examples I can think of hhh. Know that I had cut out some lyrics out of these songs to get more into the point: Corrupt - Depeche Mode: "Oh don't even tempt me, soon you'd be crying." "I could corrupt you, it will be easy. Watching you suffer, girl; it will please me." "I wanna touch you with my little finger, I know it will crush you." "You'd be crying out in pain, begging me to play my games. I could corrupt you, It would be ugly. They could sedate you, but what good would drugs be?" Pretty When You Cry - VAST: "Ooh, I didn't want to hurt you, baby. I didn't want to hurt you x2. But you're pretty when you cry." "Ooh, if you knew how much I loved you, you would run away (How can you do this to me, now?). But when I treat you bad, it always makes you want to stay (How can you do this to me, now?)." Closer - Nine Inch Nails: Pretty much everything-
The difference is these songs aren’t trying to sound loving or healthy like proship tries to pretend.. these songs are MEANT to be perceived as dark and pro ship is designed to be normalized and cute..
@@Flameytastic Oh okay! Okay I can understand that and see what you mean there. I'll admit my examples are not particularly the best ones persay, but if we ignore my horrible examples- what about ones that do say it positively/romanticize it? Edit: I may still not understand the rules of proship and such still, but what if they aren't proceed as positive? You can have a depressing story about uh, certain subjects and make it not all lovey and healthy, ones stories that does showcase it as dark and such. What about those? Are they not labeled as proships then? :-0
@@AppleCore247 then anti proshippers would agree that these shouldn’t be allowed because abuse shouldn’t be romanticized or normalized But I will say sometimes things are betrayed that way but are meant to be perceived as dark anyways. Some examples might be in my mouth, ecstasy, or basically any icp songs. Though the people sing romantically or sing as if it’s okay it’s meant to still disturb or show a story not meant to be perceived as okay. These things deserve nuance ofc and take more critical thinking then most pro shippers or anti shippers have unfortunately I don’t consider myself anti, pro, or neutral. My opinion is that freedom in media is important but people should be careful and think critically on what they put out to the world especially since the proship community is full of minors. And that making abuse “cute” isn’t okay. I went more in depth on my own comment if you’d like to read that :) anyways thanks for asking and being willing to listen this topic is very important to me as an ex proshipper and someone traumatized by the community
@@Flameytastic Okay thank you! And I can see what you mean in most of these, so I appreciate you really taking the time to writing this all down! Thank you! Yes I've read your comment, I can relate to you alot with the Amino crazed and I myself have been... Grøømed as well (mainly roleplays, but other things aswell). Kinda funny you mentioned that since even in this said video MG did talk about a person comment saying how because they were proship and such (will try to look for the timestamp, also I understand not wanting to watch it since you had said you didn't watch the full video. And that's okay! Keep yourself safe first! ), and because of that, they had been grøømed and such. But the thing is that no, proship didn't do that to you, the abusers did. For me, I was pretty anti-shipped-minded back then, so proshipping and getting grøømed does not have the same correlation. Sorry kinda tired, if you ever wanna discuss this more better/smoothy, we can if you like! I will really like to understand your side alot more since you do seem to be a very understanding person!
I'm sick of people thinking the issue with the concept of sexual abuse is the 'sex' part and not the 'abuse' part. It doesn't matter what a person fantasizes about in their head or what fictional content they make, the only parties that need to consent are the creator and consumer. If they both consent, there is no abuse, and there is no problem.
im kinda confused on this please elaborate, you start on trying to define sexual abuse and then move it on to content? (without a transition which makes this whole thing VERY confusing to understand might i add) and im not sure what point your trying to get across here either, are you trying to say sexual abuse is too sex oriented? or are you trying to say that content / creators that mention sexual abuse is ok as long as all parties consent? (also you calling sexual abuse a concept is lowk ick, and i think we both know why and i hope you dont need me to explain further)
@@imnothinglike_yall Sexual abuse is not a physical object, it is a category into which we sort certain behaviors in order to analyze them. Therefore, it is a concept. That does not mean it's not real or harmful, a concept is literally just the building block of how we think. I hope you were honestly misinformed on what a concept is, otherwise it is really disingenuous to say it's 'icky' to call sexual abuse it what it is. What I was trying to say is that there is no actual sexual abuse present in fiction that depicts it, same as how there is no actual violence in fiction that depicts it. Therefore, people who oppose the existence of such content are merely offended by the sexual appeal of the content and not the abuse aspect, because there is no abuse happening. In doing that, they are severely missing the point of what exactly makes abuse wrong, and they are just feeding into Puritan anti-sex notions. If you still do not understand what I am trying to say, I'm going to assume you are under 18 and your brain is not developed enough to process this. In that case, you should not be engaging in this discourse anyway, and I am not going to respond to you further.
...genuine question, MG, do you believe that art depicting minors engaged in adult situations is okay? Like, to clarify, I'm specifically asking if you think that loli/shotacon, cub, and generally ANY sexual depiction of minors that aren't aged up to being above the age of 18, is a good thing and isn't just a means for pedophiles to feel justified with having CP on their hard drives. It's a genuine question not based in ignorance or malice, I really just want to know.
im pretty sure what mg meant was that if ur only argument for something being bad is because its illegal isnt an argument regardless of if said illegal thing is bad, theres reasons why incest is illegal and its not cuz "its illegal" its because of it being a genetic abomination that leaves issues on the offspring similarly w other illegal acts w others (either consensual or not) but hey idk maybe im wrong but thats what i got from the video
I think that kind of content is allowed to exist, because if it’s not exploiting real children I don’t really see the issue with it existing. I think it’s gross and weird, but I mind my business when it comes to that kind of thing. They aren’t looking at pictures of real children, so I don’t really care beyond thinking they’re gross.
@@xxmushroom.girlxxthe thing is that if we allow shota and lolicon to exist, pedophilia becomes normalized. its been shown time and time again that this stuff does not just magically distract predators.
Regardless of how you feel, please refer to what you consider 'CP' as CSEM (Child Sexual Exploitation Material.) This is a term that prioritizes the victims of such content instead of the use that content has for predators. Think of it this way: if someone took illicit pictures of you without consent, would you want the people supposedly on your side to indirectly imply that those images are morally bad because they are erotic in nature rather than focusing on the abuse you went through? It's a thing that makes many victims uncomfortable. It also distinguishes between actual abuse scenarios and, say, teens sending each other pictures with consent.
@xxmushroom.girlxx To each their own, I guess, and I commend you on steering clear of....THAT.... side of the internet, however, while I agree that content of any kind can exist, it doesn't mean it that SHOULD exist, like NFTs or "kids content" on RUclips as the weakest forms of content that exists but shouldn't.
This is kinda a point talking about your original video. I remember first seeing the title and thinking it was a big yikes but then I watched the video and I understand and agree with your points. Imo, the definition shifting could be a major problem in discussions about this topic. A suggestion on what we could possibly do is maybe separate the terms profic and proship, the former carrying the og definition of depicting dark topics in media (with appropriate warnings of course) while the latter carries the “new” definition which is I guess supporting problematic romantic/sexual ships (correct me on the newer definition if I’m wrong). I’m not sure how widespread we could get this small idea to be but I feel like fixing this vocabulary issue is important in future discussions. Also, imo, depicting problematic stuff in media with appropriate warnings and disclaimers is ok but supporting these actions irl for example isn’t. Sorry if my point doesn’t make too much sense but I’m wondering what would your thoughts be on that idea.
Actually, the endulging of “problematic” ships has its own terms! Comshipping (people who enjoy shipping morally grey and toxic pairings) And darkshipping (people who ship dark things like pedophilia, incest, rape, abuse, etc)
@@xxmushroom.girlxx Huh, makes sense, forgot about those lol Though I wonder what caused the definition of profic and proship to shift to a similar definition to comshipping or darkshipping.
The fact that they subscribed knowing your content but when they find out you are a proshipper and your content was already highly hinting at it shows how much of a hypocrite lots of the unfollowers are 😭
Wait but if the majority of proshippers are Children then why is it their fault it's the fault of their parents their reaction video or whatever is so stupid wtf
27:47 there's more of a correlation between antis and predators from what i've seen, yet i don't think they're predators, i just think they've been groomed (btw people can be groomed for non sexual purposes, and as adults) into this sexist way of thinking
Screaming crying pissing shitting and throwing up Edit: i love how you say I’m misconstruing your arguments yet you proceed to misconstrue my arguments 👍 very cool
So let me see if i got this right. People are mad because other people are depicting fictional characters in nsfw situations? And in response to that the are abusing these people, real people? I mean, it seems pretty clear who's in the wrong...
I know I'm 4 weeks late to this but i want to point out a flaw in your argument in 12:36 regards to the ex proshipper. The ex proshipper ended up getting groomed because they were desensitized to pdf-philic and minor x adult shipping. Desensitization is a contributing factor that wasnt factored in it. Not trying to be mean and I'm sorry coming off that way if i do sound mean /g
@@mysmallnoman you replied to this, after reading my ENTIRE comment and still say "you're taking the blame away from the groomer"? A kid got desensitized to some gross stuff and it factored into them getting groomed, one of possibly several factors. When you normalize stuff like pdf-philic or minor x adult stuff, what do you think happens? Flowers bloom? Birds sing? A whole Disney princess song? I'm gonna assume your a kid who doesn't understand what I'm saying. /g /nm
I watched Vincent‘s video the other day and right off the bat it felt like he was taking your shit way out of context and ehhh,,,,, didn’t bother finishing it, no regrets here lmfao
Imagine compareing handrawn cp to slasher films 💀💀💀 (bruh you dont need an agrument for why this is stupid, also are u fr 😭 making fun of someones mumbling voice when u slur over ur words constantly) Edit: also even though you respect that it has a right to exist, dosent mean it should exist, also antishippers dont think it has a right to exist not becuase they are pro censhorship (because its fucking gross and it normalizes horrrible behaviour) also even though you said alot "dont let kids see proship content then" in ur past vid, it also harms adults and influeneces them, so its obvious that it shoudnt be romantisized because it will lead people to think its okay. At the end of the day, we know this content is going to exist, but that dosent mean it should be created. Also why the hell would people ship pedophillic ships and be against pedophillia. It dosent make sense. Edit: also I did try two reply to the last two comments (4,5) but I think my comment was deleted Edit: I don't want to repeat myself or answer any more comments, I'm just gonna say this, the only time lolicon is justified is if it's vent art, you shouldn't be posting it online, horror films are just really edgy, lolicon is handrawn porn of children, not saying someone should get thrown in jail for life, it's just really creepy and I dont think it should posted or respected. edit: gracefuls video does a way better job at responding to all of this than my comment does, so check out his debate vid
@@Furiitha096 there's a difference between slasher films and lolicon/pedophillia ships, slasher films make u feel scared and demonize the killer, lolicon is meant to turn you on, and ships with children and adults are meant to normalize people to it or are meant for enjoyment.
I do in fact need an argument as to why those things can’t be compared. I believe in you!! Rub your two braincells together and you’ll hopefully think of one!!
we are not on the same page. young people can still be correct, though I just personally think they shouldn't be talking about this at their age. maybe getting into fandom discourse instead at the least? It feels like they are throwing their childhood innocence away, and I'm not that old so I can't say that I am much better, but I am a legal adult so I have some experience, and honestly it would be better for them to spend their childhood doing child-like things.
@@brickyoutube bro as a another "legal adult". I can tell you that you arent their parent. And telling them what they can and cant do makes you look like an idiot. Frankly if thats what you did at that age than i pray to jesus they stay the way they are. Frankly youre making me wish i was 16 years old so i wouldnt have to live with the fact that you and i are around the same age. Genuinely what did your parents do to turn out such a narcissistic piece of shit? Frankly being stupider than someone younger than you is something i cannot imagine admitting myself. Let alone giving a demonstration as dumb as you did. If you and them were in the same room together and someone asked me who needed babysitting it would not be them. Did you cryongenically frozen at the age of 5 and released on your 18th birthday? Cuz thats the only way i could imagine you having all those extra years. And yet being a narcisstic shit face. Though sadly even thats hard to imagine cuz i actually enjoy talking with 5 year olds. Having a conversation feels like talking to einstein compared to your dumbass. If fiction isnt fiction than im going to draw a picture of you getting impaled cuz that would be a reality i wanna live in. Honestly i could do this for days. You make too easy a target.
funny how they mentioned game theory when matpat literally made a video against the whole "violent video games cause violence" argument with... actual evidence 💀💀
10:34 "claims with no evidence" the clip shown covers most of the screen with evidence! like they know they're just going to get away with it because no one actually watches the video part of videos anymore and will just blindly believe it, like wasn't there a incident in the commentary community about this?
Daily reminder that Kyle Carrozzo, animator and creator of magiswords, got disabled NB artist Ang Vodra blacklisted from the animation industry and fully unable to get the healthcare they needed over private ship art of Invader Zim under the argument it was """cp""" and traumatized him. He defended himself calling them a "pedo" and a predator over said private art and used anti-rethoric to call everyone who defended Ang a pedo, trying to portray himself as a "safe" and "trustworthy" adult. Recently, he's been found guilty of owning 600 photos and videos of CSA. Including but not limited to *TORTURE* material. Kyle isn't the first person to have used this same rethoric to disguise themselves as a "safe" adult and a good person either, but you'll never hear antis calling these people out. In fact, they'll defend or agree with them while deflecting with BS like "stop making this about proshipping! 🤬" and the like. Of course, if the predator was a proshipper they would immediately jump in to say "see! Pro-ship bad!" and pretend their side has never had predators in it.
Sounds like what you are doing right now, just so you know it isn’t better when you do it. Let’s stick to the facts here, pro ship content being normalized makes seeing loud and proud pedophiles and zoophiles much more common, and I don’t want that.
“in the early seasons they kinda nerfed him in the later stuff and just made him like a raging narcissist and a bumbling idiot but still” its so hard to hear i had to rewind it like 5 times the first time i watched it
I've had a lot of bad experiences with proshippers , Maybe not all proshippers are these weird people but most are , Most of them use the argument that they are "proshippers" to make horrifying drawings , most with minors , And I can't take it anymore , but not all of they are like this
Didn't I just say before you into conclusion bc of what the title or say some shit after 30 seconds into the video to WATCH THE FULL VIDEO?! Why isn't that people don't pay attention and I'm saying this because of this person there's a few more people I saw doing a commentary video about your proshipping video mg and I'm not gonna even say who or what there names are because 50/50 there probably scrolling through this comment section and god forbid they see this and reply to it. Also if I do say the names it's probably harassment so yeah.
I can only make the argument that sexual horror is and must be handled differently than normal gorey horror But yes i totally agree with you that its hypocritical to think that slasher movies and thus pro shipping are pretty much tbe same in regards to "They influeneve our kiiids!" Because i hear the argument that videogames cause violence too many times
@@Furiitha096 Gore horror is relatively different if you get killed you dont really carry any scars In sexual horror though you aren't necessarily killed and these scars are much deeper and will follow you as sex is a normal human thing (asexuals aside for a moment) These horrors need to be treated differently as sexual horror is more delicate of a topic to talk about as there are many victims of sexual abuse, assault or harassment (I hope I made my point clear)
Out of curiousity, have you read any genuine studies or even papers, I know there aren't on this exact subject but even just the gamers dilemma or fictional immorality v immoral fiction? Or are all your arguments just personal observations?
@@tocasmiley360 a video being twice as long as the original is completely normal and very standard in the commentary community. The reason why their video was shorter than mine is because they only covered certain parts, I covered almost ALL of their video because it was ALL horrible.
CP isn’t a thing. 1. CP has been used as a term for CSAM/CSEM (which can only happen to real minors.) interchangeably , which it shouldn’t be as its dehumanising - why is it dehumanising? Well porn is consensual, children can’t consent. - why can CSAM/CSEM only he used for actual real minors? Well it’s because fictional characters can’t be abused and exploited 2. CP has also been used for fictional loli/shota being depicted in porn , but fictional characters can’t consent because they aren’t real.. they can’t be hurt either. Meaning it isnt ‘CP’ just the same term as always. Porn if it’s based off of fictional characters solely
@@Niklaus_mikaelson_TVD Thank you for educating me about the terminology, I thought that the terms CP and CSAM were interchangeable. I do agree that fictional characters can’t be harmed or give consent because they’re fictional, but it’s less about that and more about the fact that anyone who consumes drawn CSAM (whether intentionally or not) can be negatively affected by it because it could give them the impression that those things are okay to do to a real life child. And god forbid a child sees it and believes that it would be okay if an adult assaulted them. Many child victims are already too afraid to speak up because of the authority that adults have over them, and consuming drawn or real CSAM would make it worse. Also, it’s just plain disgusting to have the desire to draw and/or see a child like that.
@@verycrypticguy you nearly got it lol, just few things that I would like to clear up! CSAM/CSEM is drawn/real CSAM/CSEM. CSAM/CSEM is sexually explicit content involving a non fictional minor/child. CSAM/CSEM can’t happen to fictional characters. It’s actually not that common for people to think it’s okay to do to real life children but yet again that’s why they shouldn’t be in those spaces of NSFW/18+ art or 16+ art [possibly 13+ art if they are under 13] because it can affect them especially because they are not mentally ready to consume it. Even if they were it is a space they shouldn’t be in
Girl, the only way you can get someoen to convince someoen is to not do it at all and say "Womp" Historically Proshipping wasn't into shipping an adult and a child, it just means anti harassment. Don't feed them, and tell them they're a "brainrot" and move on. Edit: I'm a neutral, if people are uncomfortable with the concept of Proshipping or Anti (I also had disagreements with proshippers), ignore and move on, or block. Fandom politics are useless.
Look I know you’re young but finding proshipping valid or defending its right to exist is EXTREMELY harmful and since you’re a minor you shouldn’t even be in these spaces at all. Drawn depictions of children in lewd situations is LEGITIMATELY illegal even if it’s “fictional” or whatever excuse you make. Pro shipping is disturbing and disgusting, and illegal. Plain and simple.
Actually, no it's not! :) 18 U.S. Code 2256 (11) the term "indistinguishable" used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an actual minor engaged in s3xually explicit conduct. **This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults.**
@@TheFufu_Chan not illegal but degenerate, imagine actively wasting your time deliberately writing a story about grooming and abuse and thinking your art is good in anyway. Most people in this community are children and it beautifully shows how lost the new generation is.
@@TheFufu_Chan While loli does not depict actual children, the act was passed to make virtual child porn illegal. Since lolicon depicts an identifiable minor engaging in sexually explicit situations, it violates federal law. In other words, you could be arrested and charged with a crime if you possess any lolicon.
@@samoriedwards1167 Pretty sure the thing you're talking about is wrong, since there was a case in 2003 where a man was arrested for possession of lolicon, but he was allowed free since it was deemed unethical
Ok so, we all agree that sexualizing kids is wrong, right? If someone sexualizes a fictional child BECAUSE they’re a child, is that p3dophilia? What about if they sexualized them DESPITE being a child. What if it’s purely coping for trauma? In my opinion, the first two are wrong and should have some sort of moral/legal consequences (obviously 1 is worse than 2 and imo is a form of p3dophilia), the last one is fine but I think it’s kinda weird a little bit. Furthermore, if someone proship wants to be friends with me. If they do 1 ew yuck get away from me, if 2 or 3 I’ll kindly ask them to not talk about shipping discourse because I know we’d disagree (also because proship isn’t that serious, unless it’s in category 1) I also really don’t get the proship attitude of being rude/confused when an anti gets weirded out when they[proshipper] express opinions, it’s not like either side are literal n@zis. You don’t need to lay your life down for fontcest. It’s honestly fair to be weirded out by proshippers (at least category 1 and 2 ones)
@@TheFufu_Chan its still gross, maybe non of this is illegal,, but its degerante and is the catylist for people who consume it to spiral down a rabbit hole of porn addiciton and low mental health. Just because something is legal doesn't mean its right, no morals contribute to the fall of society
Im all for artistic freedom as both an artist and writer, but most people who call them selves proshippers actively ship harmful thing's, and like peoples said its led to REAL kids getting groomed, dark content have all rights and should exist, but it shouldn't be glorified that leeds to bad things in real life. Things like adult x minor and incest have the right to exist as a horror subject or a warning, but if you like this as a cute story, you are the problem. Became fiction can affect reality, people who use this content to "help" themselves not act on these urges are also not right if you know you can harm a child in such a way as awful as sa then you need to get yourself real help by talking to a professional, and if you use this to cope with trauma you need a different way cause this normilizes it, also you replying to a victim by saying it was victim blaming to say the content they participated in led to their grooming was wrong, they stated the reason that person found them was that content for a reason. Point is dark, and taboo things should exist as a horror thing because nothing about these topics are cute and harmless.
@frankyboy8513 The creator literally uses a comment from a victim saying the community that normalized this played a hand in their grooming (tf you mean where's the source)
@frankyboy8513 I did but that was proof the VICTIM said it was related cause an older person saw them as a target do to the stuff in the proship COMMUNITY
Honestly even if he saw the most recent episode film theory made on salad finger they would know where the zoophilic stuff came from since they literally show a clip of salad fingers going on a date with a dog and implied in the clip haveing s*x with the dog corps. I do more think this was supposed to be simbolic watching the episode, but even so by anti logic Firth is a necro zoophile because of animating that.
Vincent: "Source: trust me bro" this is how most antis act like, they're so dense on the head they can't make a argument with logic and resources, its crazy 😅😅
if you REALLY use your brain, really just try and think for one moment... i know it might be difficult to understand since you probably have the mental capacity of the children that you love seeing in s*xual pieces of media, but listen. if you romanticise CSEM, r*pe, b*astiality, inc*st, etc in a piece of media, it will obviously attract degenerates who are romantically attracted to that stuff. is that a simple enough concept? great! now, having given these freaks a safe space where they can discuss and normalise their perverted fantasies, do you SERIOUSLY think it's such a stretch to assume that they will act on those fantasies given the chance, since they've been in an echo chamber of like-minded people? i don't know why you defend these ships, media pieces and communities, when they bring NOTHING positive... unless you're one of the people attracted to those things. i hope you get well soon and realise that you are defending perverts and p*dos 💓
@@saturnking-il4fp shes a mentally retarded terminally online professional yapper who makes degenerate arguments, how bout find a new idol to worship and defend?
this is so hard to watch because every 5 seconds you start blabbing about their poor mic quality or you just straight up start insulting them like dude shu t the fuck up and make an actual argument 😭😭🙏🙏
Even if they WERE (which they aren’t, I literally proved that in my video) they argued themself extremely poorly. *I* could make a better video arguing against proshippers than this. Not to mention their blatant dishonesty. LMAO
i can't understand why you are getting so much hate everything you said about proshipping was actually really informative and helpful, also the debunking of misinformation was nice i think people just assume profic= active paraphile or something along the lines of r4p1st/p3do
:0 ...im a lil confuzled, i was told its not that bad then told it was bad...im not gonna pick sides with this anymore :/ imma just let this play out on its own, idk anymore, theres a lot of grey space abt proshipping that i do not know of. So yerp. Idk anymore 🧍
![Context is for zoophile supporters [response commentary]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wOnL4un5Q3Q/mqdefault.jpg)
how are you gonna judge someone for the way they speak when you have a speech impediment
I can’t control my speech impediment, they can control their voice volume
I also never judged them, I criticized them.
@@xxmushroom.girlxx still kinda odd
@@milkpwudding criticizing someone for speaking too quietly is odd?
Hey life my wifey alone
We are married 🎉
Well, i believe in artistic expression , yet the "expression" part counters some other arguments you've made.
You have said fiction is fiction, yet expression is like expressing how you feel.
noun
the action of making known one's thoughts or feelings.
"the prisoners developed a dialect as an everyday means of expression"
Just wanted to say that
Artistic Expression isn’t always how you feel. Artistic Expression can also be exploring new ideas, dynamics, traits, etc
I draw weird colorful aliens a lot, does that mean I feel like a weird colorful alien? No lmao that’s not how art works.
@@xxmushroom.girlxx pedophilia and colourful aliens aren’t the same, hope this helps
What's even funnier is that Federal Law (in the USA) doesn't make lolicon/shotacon illegal. Most people cite the outdated and since said to be unconstitutional "PROTECT act" which does not have any actual impact on current USA justice and law. USA law ACTUALLY states that the content must contain a real child or be indistinguishable from one in order to count as CSEM or CSAM (depending on the content). The only reason someone would be arrested for lolicon in the USA is because they were also charged with another crime or were spreading or harboring real CSEM/CSAM.
Also people LOVE to just show a google search instead of showing the entirety of the law which goes into detail on what actually counts as CSEM/CSAM.
if you have to say it isnt illegal even though its still weird then why even try to defend it
The fact that you have to site a fucking law already tells me what kind of person you are
@@spoti_thegreat Being "weird" isn't wrong and I don't care. Thanks
@@AngieImaginesi feel like you just yap and not even think because being weird is VERY WRONG in some situations
sorry but respectfully I disagree with this
one MG and l'll explain why as someone who was once stuck in the proship community and a victim of it
Before I start I want to state that I was not able to watch the full video due to triggering subjects so please keep that in mind
This also isn't a hate comment just some criticism
Tw for: r@pe will use the 🍇 emoji in replacement, abuse, paraphilia, and other things along those lines.
I am all for artistic freedom even if dark products when it doesn't hurt anybody. But the proship community actively leads to grooming and paraphilias
I have personal experiences to back this up and originally had sources but I actually had to repost this comment because I believe it was taken down do to spam because of the link I added..
1. "It's fiction" or "it's a coping mechanism" is often a debate. Fiction can affect reality though.
In the early to middle 2010's when amino was popular the proship community was ramped and actually allowed to take place without often having consequences. So at that time when those kind of things were allowed it really showed how wrong this was. I personally was groomed by these communities to believe children X adult or abuser X victim and stuff with 🍇 is okay and I know other people very close to my age at the time who do to. And because of this I still am affected by hypersexuality and paraphilia (specifically 🍇 paraphilia and being attracted to people way older then me) this also normalized these relationships to me and made me more easily manipulated and abused. It's also proven that paraphilias are caused by conditioning either purposeful or accidental and proshipping falls under that category And even it you don't count minors being involved, adults can be given paraphilias. And the more extreme paraphilias is p3dophili@ (sorry for the censoring don't want RUclips to delete this comment) but this means that adults can be turned into p3d0s through this.
2. Therapist only recommend this as a coping mechanism when done by adults who can handle the stuff and any therapist that recommends children to do content like this is a bad therapist. And also in no way should something like this be posted online
3. The third section is on how to do it correctly
First no minor and adult or 🍇 situation should be sexualized this harms people and conditions the user to normalize these things instead of heals. You can write about these things but making it "loving and cute" is not okay. I'm currently writing a story where one of the main characters love interest is manipulative at first.
This sometimes is considered proshipping but I feel it's inherently separated because how I'm doing it. The manipulation is seen as dark and understood as not okay even if they inevitably end in a happy relationship that's when the manipulation is gone and it's all highly metaphorical. Not saying this as a "I'm better" but just recommendations on how to handle these topic's without harming yourself or others
And final recommendations. 1. ONLY FOR ADULTS if you really need an outlet I suggest the kInk community. Most kinks are a mix of both sfw and nsfw and because it's done more personally (between you and another partner or a few other partners) so people who aren't easily harmed probably won't be affected and you have better control on content.. and the understanding that it's dark and only okay in fantasy is wayy more clear.
and for minors, only do proshipping with very small friend groups or don't share it online please.. you are only vulnerable for harm this way.
Please keep this in mind in the future
Tldr: proship causes grooming and sexual disorders such as hypersexuality or paraphilias and it's often only recommended as an absolute need for now to keep you from doing worse.. there's also safer way to do it (read the last two paragraphs above)
Hoping this comment doesn’t get deleted again
Exactly! I'm not a proshipper I just don't give a fuck about things but if you're gonna make something explicit then tag it. I don't care what you do as long as it isn't irl illegal activity, but like let me avoid the shit I don't wanna see if you're gonna make things that are explicit?
Also that's not the definition of proshipping, I feel like I could more easily call it explicit content. Proshipping is the belief that people shouldn't be harassed for ships or media as long as they're fictional. I think comshipping or darkshipping is actually shipping them (idk so check me if I'm wrong)
Also, if a proshipper makes explicit content, make it so kids can't find it!! The issue is that people don't appropriately tag things so you have to be 18+ to read/watch/see whatever the harmful situation is. Explicit content isn't inherently bad (to exist) but it can definitely hurt folks if the people who make it don't tag it appropriately.
(Btw this is me agreeing with you and adding my own points, I'm not trying to be rude :D)
Yeah, pretty much. One thing tho: The proshipping belief is based on anti-harassment. A proshipper can think that 🍇 fanfic is disgusting but still not harass people over it. I think you can be critical of the way something is written. But if you don’t like how it’s written, harassment will do nothing. As long as everything is properly tagged/warned, you can choose to read or not read it & not harass anyone
Also I don’t really see this as disagreeing w/ mg
@@Furiitha096 genuinely why do we need a term for not harassing ppl.. I wish people could just be good people and not harass but anyways the problem is that most the time pro shippers might mean anti harassment but it also has gained a double meaning of being okay with glorified dark media. Even if it’s not the original meaning this is the meaning that is now spread and that even a lot of proshippers believe so the word now has double meaning. I dont think anyone should be harassed but I do think we shouldn’t normalize something so unhealthy and dangerous especially when the community allows minors in their almost completely sexual community.
Edit: btw no hate to you this is explaining I’m very tried and autistic so I might seem aggressive
Also I am disagreeing with MG because MG literally stated in one of her comments that she thinks that lolicon and draw cp should just be ignored and we should mind our business but no you shouldn’t and correcting and reporting there is so important ofc don’t harass but telling a person what they’re doing is gross isn’t harassment
@@moosecrashing to your additions on what proship means I have the same reply as my last one
did you watch the video
1:14 i can't hear you through your lisp
Cool. Let me find the off button on the back of my head to turn off my lisp real quick
@xxmushroom thanks, that would really help me hear your baseless rant defending CP. 👍
@@Lbozo5060 bro with that name and pfp its not hard to tell who is the living L here
@@saturnking-il4fp 📸🤨
@@regularfox6390 04/10 rage bait do better bro
Lil bro get sam and max OUT OF THIS💀
Max would bully people with stupid opinions like this I think
@@xxmushroom.girlxxmax wouldn’t be a “pro-shipper” nor “anti”
Max wouldn’t be involved in stupid internet drama, he’d be solving crimes with his loving husband ❤
@@xxmushroom.girlxx Max would bully you for your stupid opinions. I highly doubt out beloved bunny would be okay with people drawing corn of kids.
@@LukandstuffGODDAMN RIGHT thank you for saying the truth
@@Lukandstuffongg
Also dear god. I can’t hear them for the life of me, the music muffles them and even when I turn up the Volume I can’t hear ANYTHING💀
idk if this'll help, but like at least for me, Vincent's words are clearer when I watch this with headphones on
bro just say you're a soon to be kid diddler oh my days "they just look like cartoon characters!" CARTOON CHARACTERS OF KIDS
FOR REAL. THE NEXT FEW YEARS FUNGUS GIRL WILL BE IN JAIL
why aren't you calling the kids parents then
@@Momofuuki r u fr…
The counter argument of “reaction image saying you’re stupid” is my biggest pet peeve. All you’re gonna do is show a low quality of SpongeBob saying no?? And you expect me to take you seriously????
Completely Ignoring the fact that mg literally did the exact same thing in her video.
@@I_missthesage she paired it with actual arguments though. Hope this helps!
Oh Lord, I could’ve barely hear what they were saying so I had to turn on the captions. Also I do believe that there avatar has color changing abilities.
42:42 wonder why antis always call it that, maybe because if they called it what it was (Child Sexual Abuse Material/Child Sexual Exploitation Material) their argument completely falls flat, because you can't abuse/exploit a fictional character?
Personally I think both CP and CSEM are equally important terms, and I usually use the term CP because it’s both easier to say and more widely known and understood, though I do like the new term’s disregard of fictional content because real life abuse should NEVER be considered on the same level as fictional characters.
you can't abuse a fictional character. that much is true.
but the romanticisation and the positive depiction of these themes is the problem. NOBODY is arguing that the creators of proship media are abusing the characters they ship. they're saying that there is zero proship fiction that genuinely takes the issues it discusses seriously without sexualising them.
I hate the term CP personally. It’s a dehumanising term for victims of CSAM/CSEM because prn is consensual, children can’t consent
@@Niklaus_mikaelson_TVD that's a great point, but prn is a very exploitative industry and a lot of the actors (especially female) are coerced or forced into making those videos without consent :(
@@love--dive than that isn’t porn then that’s explosion. Or the right term is Non-Consensual Intimate Images or NCII. It includes video in the term too even if it says images
Personally dc what ppl do online as long as their not bothering other people or affecting anyone 😎👍
Real 🗿
Proshipping does affect people but aight
@@FATDOOG when tf did that "blackwashing" thing come into this, I don't think that's real idk what ur yapping about.
@@FATDOOG ??? What are you talking about
This is quite literally affecting people
I salute you MG for being able to sift thru anti’s bullshit
the "anti's bullshit" in question being... why you shouldn't glorify r*pe, CSEM, b*astiality and inc*st, among many other things? idc, proshippers are WEIRD for romanticising media that not only normalising disgusting issues but also encouraging them and creating a safe space for the degenerates who would participate in this behaviour in real life given the chance.
give me one valid reason that you would WANT to see these themes discussed positively.
This makes me wonder about how would anti-shippers say about songs that romantizied abuse? Mainly I am saying I have never heard anyone complaining about certain songs that does that. Though, I'm not as active in social media stuff as I used too.
Anyways, love your videos! Rewatched your whole commentary playlist yet again lol.
Edit: Some examples I can think of hhh. Know that I had cut out some lyrics out of these songs to get more into the point:
Corrupt - Depeche Mode:
"Oh don't even tempt me, soon you'd be crying."
"I could corrupt you, it will be easy. Watching you suffer, girl; it will please me."
"I wanna touch you with my little finger, I know it will crush you."
"You'd be crying out in pain, begging me to play my games. I could corrupt you, It would be ugly. They could sedate you, but what good would drugs be?"
Pretty When You Cry - VAST:
"Ooh, I didn't want to hurt you, baby. I didn't want to hurt you x2. But you're pretty when you cry."
"Ooh, if you knew how much I loved you, you would run away (How can you do this to me, now?). But when I treat you bad, it always makes you want to stay (How can you do this to me, now?)."
Closer - Nine Inch Nails:
Pretty much everything-
Depeche mode and nine inch nails mention 💥💥💥
The difference is these songs aren’t trying to sound loving or healthy like proship tries to pretend.. these songs are MEANT to be perceived as dark and pro ship is designed to be normalized and cute..
@@Flameytastic Oh okay! Okay I can understand that and see what you mean there. I'll admit my examples are not particularly the best ones persay, but if we ignore my horrible examples- what about ones that do say it positively/romanticize it?
Edit: I may still not understand the rules of proship and such still, but what if they aren't proceed as positive? You can have a depressing story about uh, certain subjects and make it not all lovey and healthy, ones stories that does showcase it as dark and such. What about those? Are they not labeled as proships then? :-0
@@AppleCore247 then anti proshippers would agree that these shouldn’t be allowed because abuse shouldn’t be romanticized or normalized
But I will say sometimes things are betrayed that way but are meant to be perceived as dark anyways. Some examples might be in my mouth, ecstasy, or basically any icp songs. Though the people sing romantically or sing as if it’s okay it’s meant to still disturb or show a story not meant to be perceived as okay. These things deserve nuance ofc and take more critical thinking then most pro shippers or anti shippers have unfortunately
I don’t consider myself anti, pro, or neutral. My opinion is that freedom in media is important but people should be careful and think critically on what they put out to the world especially since the proship community is full of minors. And that making abuse “cute” isn’t okay. I went more in depth on my own comment if you’d like to read that :) anyways thanks for asking and being willing to listen this topic is very important to me as an ex proshipper and someone traumatized by the community
@@Flameytastic Okay thank you! And I can see what you mean in most of these, so I appreciate you really taking the time to writing this all down!
Thank you! Yes I've read your comment, I can relate to you alot with the Amino crazed and I myself have been... Grøømed as well (mainly roleplays, but other things aswell). Kinda funny you mentioned that since even in this said video MG did talk about a person comment saying how because they were proship and such (will try to look for the timestamp, also I understand not wanting to watch it since you had said you didn't watch the full video. And that's okay! Keep yourself safe first! ), and because of that, they had been grøømed and such. But the thing is that no, proship didn't do that to you, the abusers did. For me, I was pretty anti-shipped-minded back then, so proshipping and getting grøømed does not have the same correlation.
Sorry kinda tired, if you ever wanna discuss this more better/smoothy, we can if you like! I will really like to understand your side alot more since you do seem to be a very understanding person!
I'm sick of people thinking the issue with the concept of sexual abuse is the 'sex' part and not the 'abuse' part. It doesn't matter what a person fantasizes about in their head or what fictional content they make, the only parties that need to consent are the creator and consumer. If they both consent, there is no abuse, and there is no problem.
@@fatcat1414 EXACTLY!!
im kinda confused on this please elaborate, you start on trying to define sexual abuse and then move it on to content? (without a transition which makes this whole thing VERY confusing to understand might i add) and im not sure what point your trying to get across here either, are you trying to say sexual abuse is too sex oriented? or are you trying to say that content / creators that mention sexual abuse is ok as long as all parties consent? (also you calling sexual abuse a concept is lowk ick, and i think we both know why and i hope you dont need me to explain further)
@@imnothinglike_yall Sexual abuse is not a physical object, it is a category into which we sort certain behaviors in order to analyze them. Therefore, it is a concept. That does not mean it's not real or harmful, a concept is literally just the building block of how we think. I hope you were honestly misinformed on what a concept is, otherwise it is really disingenuous to say it's 'icky' to call sexual abuse it what it is.
What I was trying to say is that there is no actual sexual abuse present in fiction that depicts it, same as how there is no actual violence in fiction that depicts it. Therefore, people who oppose the existence of such content are merely offended by the sexual appeal of the content and not the abuse aspect, because there is no abuse happening. In doing that, they are severely missing the point of what exactly makes abuse wrong, and they are just feeding into Puritan anti-sex notions.
If you still do not understand what I am trying to say, I'm going to assume you are under 18 and your brain is not developed enough to process this. In that case, you should not be engaging in this discourse anyway, and I am not going to respond to you further.
@@fatcat1414 i apologize for misusing concept, i was under the assumption it had more more physical meaning to it
@@fatcat1414THE PERSON WHO MADE THIS VIDEO IS 17, they went into this crap at a young age
By the way the creator doesn't use she her mg didn't missgender him just to let you all know when commenting
I have mixed views on proshipping but their video is not good :[
Real.
how do you have mixed feelings on that shit
...genuine question, MG, do you believe that art depicting minors engaged in adult situations is okay? Like, to clarify, I'm specifically asking if you think that loli/shotacon, cub, and generally ANY sexual depiction of minors that aren't aged up to being above the age of 18, is a good thing and isn't just a means for pedophiles to feel justified with having CP on their hard drives. It's a genuine question not based in ignorance or malice, I really just want to know.
im pretty sure what mg meant was that if ur only argument for something being bad is because its illegal isnt an argument regardless of if said illegal thing is bad, theres reasons why incest is illegal and its not cuz "its illegal" its because of it being a genetic abomination that leaves issues on the offspring similarly w other illegal acts w others (either consensual or not) but hey idk maybe im wrong but thats what i got from the video
I think that kind of content is allowed to exist, because if it’s not exploiting real children I don’t really see the issue with it existing. I think it’s gross and weird, but I mind my business when it comes to that kind of thing. They aren’t looking at pictures of real children, so I don’t really care beyond thinking they’re gross.
@@xxmushroom.girlxxthe thing is that if we allow shota and lolicon to exist, pedophilia becomes normalized. its been shown time and time again that this stuff does not just magically distract predators.
Regardless of how you feel, please refer to what you consider 'CP' as CSEM (Child Sexual Exploitation Material.) This is a term that prioritizes the victims of such content instead of the use that content has for predators. Think of it this way: if someone took illicit pictures of you without consent, would you want the people supposedly on your side to indirectly imply that those images are morally bad because they are erotic in nature rather than focusing on the abuse you went through? It's a thing that makes many victims uncomfortable. It also distinguishes between actual abuse scenarios and, say, teens sending each other pictures with consent.
@xxmushroom.girlxx To each their own, I guess, and I commend you on steering clear of....THAT.... side of the internet, however, while I agree that content of any kind can exist, it doesn't mean it that SHOULD exist, like NFTs or "kids content" on RUclips as the weakest forms of content that exists but shouldn't.
I legit cannot hear a word weasel is saying 😭
This is kinda a point talking about your original video. I remember first seeing the title and thinking it was a big yikes but then I watched the video and I understand and agree with your points. Imo, the definition shifting could be a major problem in discussions about this topic. A suggestion on what we could possibly do is maybe separate the terms profic and proship, the former carrying the og definition of depicting dark topics in media (with appropriate warnings of course) while the latter carries the “new” definition which is I guess supporting problematic romantic/sexual ships (correct me on the newer definition if I’m wrong). I’m not sure how widespread we could get this small idea to be but I feel like fixing this vocabulary issue is important in future discussions.
Also, imo, depicting problematic stuff in media with appropriate warnings and disclaimers is ok but supporting these actions irl for example isn’t.
Sorry if my point doesn’t make too much sense but I’m wondering what would your thoughts be on that idea.
Actually, the endulging of “problematic” ships has its own terms!
Comshipping (people who enjoy shipping morally grey and toxic pairings)
And darkshipping (people who ship dark things like pedophilia, incest, rape, abuse, etc)
@@xxmushroom.girlxx
Huh, makes sense, forgot about those lol
Though I wonder what caused the definition of profic and proship to shift to a similar definition to comshipping or darkshipping.
@@CosmoMaster888 malicious strawmannirg is what caused it most likely
“I drew you as the soy and and me as the Chad” ahh thumbnail 😭
I can't wait until you see the other videos people made for you.
Tbh I hate how so many people are take want you said out of context.
I WAS STRUGGLIGN SO BAD TO LITTERALLy TRY AND MAKE OUT WHAT HELL WAS BEING SAID IN THE INTRO, I HAD TO TURN MY VOLUME ALL THE WAY UP 😭
1:06:18 the best part
HELP
Fr I loved that part
The fact that they subscribed knowing your content but when they find out you are a proshipper and your content was already highly hinting at it shows how much of a hypocrite lots of the unfollowers are 😭
Wait but if the majority of proshippers are Children then why is it their fault it's the fault of their parents their reaction video or whatever is so stupid wtf
27:47 there's more of a correlation between antis and predators from what i've seen, yet i don't think they're predators, i just think they've been groomed (btw people can be groomed for non sexual purposes, and as adults) into this sexist way of thinking
You’re an idiot
I’m not a huge fan of pro shippers but as long as they aren’t harming anybody it’s fine. people online need to chill
this!!!
they are harming people in a way unfortunatley... /nm
@@ASCII-MALWARE i presume you mean anyway?
@@tocasmiley360 no, I know what I said :]
@@ASCII-MALWARE how? by posting art with warnings? by posting helplines, charities, and information on abusers, logical fallacies, and grooming?
I’m like a few seconds in and ohhhh no I cannot hear what Vincent saying at all this is worse than me and I can barely speak a proper sentence
I felt so called out when "artists look at the screen"
Screaming crying pissing shitting and throwing up
Edit: i love how you say I’m misconstruing your arguments yet you proceed to misconstrue my arguments 👍 very cool
proship ≠ dark fiction. just dont call it proship ffs 😭
Can you get a mic please, I can't hear your terrible takes
@@AzumaTsuyuri i did :)
@@Weasel_and_Rodent That's crazy it still sounds terrible 😭🙏
@@AzumaTsuyuri that sounds like u problem m8 👍
imo, there was something off abt that response vid already- (no hate to that person tho, i simply just disagreed w the things they said...)
oh some of these comments reek
So let me see if i got this right. People are mad because other people are depicting fictional characters in nsfw situations? And in response to that the are abusing these people, real people? I mean, it seems pretty clear who's in the wrong...
1:06:18 truly one of the best parts in a video ever
I know I'm 4 weeks late to this but i want to point out a flaw in your argument in 12:36 regards to the ex proshipper. The ex proshipper ended up getting groomed because they were desensitized to pdf-philic and minor x adult shipping. Desensitization is a contributing factor that wasnt factored in it. Not trying to be mean and I'm sorry coming off that way if i do sound mean /g
Kids shouldn't be on the internet and you're taking the blame away from the groomer
@@mysmallnoman you replied to this, after reading my ENTIRE comment and still say "you're taking the blame away from the groomer"? A kid got desensitized to some gross stuff and it factored into them getting groomed, one of possibly several factors. When you normalize stuff like pdf-philic or minor x adult stuff, what do you think happens? Flowers bloom? Birds sing? A whole Disney princess song? I'm gonna assume your a kid who doesn't understand what I'm saying. /g /nm
@@AbyssalGrey then GTA desensitizes crimes then!!
@@mysmallnoman your parents should limit your iPad time
@@AbyssalGrey cool
Are you gonna debunk my point
I developed a head ache 2 minutes in
I watched Vincent‘s video the other day and right off the bat it felt like he was taking your shit way out of context and ehhh,,,,,
didn’t bother finishing it, no regrets here lmfao
Imagine compareing handrawn cp to slasher films 💀💀💀 (bruh you dont need an agrument for why this is stupid, also are u fr 😭 making fun of someones mumbling voice when u slur over ur words constantly)
Edit: also even though you respect that it has a right to exist, dosent mean it should exist, also antishippers dont think it has a right to exist not becuase they are pro censhorship (because its fucking gross and it normalizes horrrible behaviour) also even though you said alot "dont let kids see proship content then" in ur past vid, it also harms adults and influeneces them, so its obvious that it shoudnt be romantisized because it will lead people to think its okay.
At the end of the day, we know this content is going to exist, but that dosent mean it should be created.
Also why the hell would people ship pedophillic ships and be against pedophillia. It dosent make sense.
Edit: also I did try two reply to the last two comments (4,5) but I think my comment was deleted
Edit: I don't want to repeat myself or answer any more comments, I'm just gonna say this, the only time lolicon is justified is if it's vent art, you shouldn't be posting it online, horror films are just really edgy, lolicon is handrawn porn of children, not saying someone should get thrown in jail for life, it's just really creepy and I dont think it should posted or respected.
edit: gracefuls video does a way better job at responding to all of this than my comment does, so check out his debate vid
Ok but they’re both horrible crimes? Why is fiction violence ok but other stuff isn’t?
@@Furiitha096 there's a difference between slasher films and lolicon/pedophillia ships, slasher films make u feel scared and demonize the killer, lolicon is meant to turn you on, and ships with children and adults are meant to normalize people to it or are meant for enjoyment.
@@Furiitha096 people don't get sexual gratification from slasher films
@@narwhalocean791 actually slasher films are often somewhat sexual and many can get sexual gratification from those things so...?
I do in fact need an argument as to why those things can’t be compared. I believe in you!! Rub your two braincells together and you’ll hopefully think of one!!
You’re all a bunch of children lol
this is true
exactly lol + mg's point doesn't make sense, all proshippers are known to have bad thinking & knowledge skills anyway.
we are not on the same page. young people can still be correct, though I just personally think they shouldn't be talking about this at their age. maybe getting into fandom discourse instead at the least? It feels like they are throwing their childhood innocence away, and I'm not that old so I can't say that I am much better, but I am a legal adult so I have some experience, and honestly it would be better for them to spend their childhood doing child-like things.
TGANK YOU!!!!!!
My goat fr❤
@@brickyoutube bro as a another "legal adult". I can tell you that you arent their parent. And telling them what they can and cant do makes you look like an idiot.
Frankly if thats what you did at that age than i pray to jesus they stay the way they are. Frankly youre making me wish i was 16 years old so i wouldnt have to live with the fact that you and i are around the same age.
Genuinely what did your parents do to turn out such a narcissistic piece of shit? Frankly being stupider than someone younger than you is something i cannot imagine admitting myself.
Let alone giving a demonstration as dumb as you did. If you and them were in the same room together and someone asked me who needed babysitting it would not be them.
Did you cryongenically frozen at the age of 5 and released on your 18th birthday? Cuz thats the only way i could imagine you having all those extra years. And yet being a narcisstic shit face. Though sadly even thats hard to imagine cuz i actually enjoy talking with 5 year olds. Having a conversation feels like talking to einstein compared to your dumbass.
If fiction isnt fiction than im going to draw a picture of you getting impaled cuz that would be a reality i wanna live in. Honestly i could do this for days. You make too easy a target.
I dont even understand what they're saying why do they sound like they have a tape on their mouth 😭
Mg be cooking 💥💥💥‼️‼️‼️‼️
And we do be eating‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
@@Junebugartsfr fr we eating good ‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️
I like MG but she burnt the kitchen with some of these takes
@@TeutatesBiggestSimpyeah because these takes are FIRE!!
@@xxmushroom.girlxxreal ‼️‼️‼️‼️💥
funny how they mentioned game theory when matpat literally made a video against the whole "violent video games cause violence" argument with... actual evidence 💀💀
10:34 "claims with no evidence"
the clip shown covers most of the screen with evidence! like they know they're just going to get away with it because no one actually watches the video part of videos anymore and will just blindly believe it, like wasn't there a incident in the commentary community about this?
pop off king
Daily reminder that Kyle Carrozzo, animator and creator of magiswords, got disabled NB artist Ang Vodra blacklisted from the animation industry and fully unable to get the healthcare they needed over private ship art of Invader Zim under the argument it was """cp""" and traumatized him. He defended himself calling them a "pedo" and a predator over said private art and used anti-rethoric to call everyone who defended Ang a pedo, trying to portray himself as a "safe" and "trustworthy" adult.
Recently, he's been found guilty of owning 600 photos and videos of CSA. Including but not limited to *TORTURE* material. Kyle isn't the first person to have used this same rethoric to disguise themselves as a "safe" adult and a good person either, but you'll never hear antis calling these people out. In fact, they'll defend or agree with them while deflecting with BS like "stop making this about proshipping! 🤬" and the like. Of course, if the predator was a proshipper they would immediately jump in to say "see! Pro-ship bad!" and pretend their side has never had predators in it.
Sounds like what you are doing right now, just so you know it isn’t better when you do it. Let’s stick to the facts here, pro ship content being normalized makes seeing loud and proud pedophiles and zoophiles much more common, and I don’t want that.
I can't even hear what they're saying, they need to speak fr☹️ mg ontop fr tho
It's like they're speaking through a pillow kinda😭😭
@@this.iz_kazFR!!!
LIKE BRO SPEAK UPPPPP
I have sensory issues but I ain’t picking up anything from bro
I find it hard to process sound in general but i GENUINELY cannot hear that Vincent person at all. 😭😭
@@twistytoonyt real
mg supports lolicon which is literally illegal in multiple places
The entire beginning of this video is exactly how I felt about the Proshipping video.
i had to turn up the volume a bit SO I COULD HEAR VINCEN BETTER ;-; (sorry if i spelt their name wrong :3 )
I think it’s Vincent lol!!
@@xxmushroom.girlxx hmh
@@xxmushroom.girlxx real
HOUR LONG COMMENTARY! YIPPIEEE🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️❗️
36:40 am I the only one who didn't understand a thing? 🗿
“in the early seasons they kinda nerfed him in the later stuff and just made him like a raging narcissist and a bumbling idiot but still” its so hard to hear i had to rewind it like 5 times the first time i watched it
You didn't miss anything, they were yapping about a cartoon they like which is cool but doesn't contribute to their argument at all😭😭
NEW MG VIDEO?!!!?
21:06 i mean they aren't rlly wrong tho, all the ones i've seen on tt are minors and you are one yourself im assuming
I've had a lot of bad experiences with proshippers , Maybe not all proshippers are these weird people but most are , Most of them use the argument that they are "proshippers" to make horrifying drawings , most with minors , And I can't take it anymore , but not all of they are like this
Please point out one of these artists if they're actually that bad.
@@mentallyillfinger hadink_ drew Elizabeth X William nsfw, most people don't like this guy actually and i think he got banned i don't know
@AutisticSillyPerson that's not proshipping, that's just porn dude. Gross shit, but it's not proshipping lmaooo
@@mentallyillfinger but it literally is proshipping. doesn't matter if its porn or not, its still proshipping
Thats not a real child!
im sorry mushroom
YOURE SO REAL FOR THIS VIDEO, ART EXPRESSION!!
so you support the romanticisation of CSEM?
no.
@@love--dive thats not what proshipping is btw :D
Didn't I just say before you into conclusion bc of what the title or say some shit after 30 seconds into the video to WATCH THE FULL VIDEO?!
Why isn't that people don't pay attention and I'm saying this because of this person there's a few more people I saw doing a commentary video about your proshipping video mg and I'm not gonna even say who or what there names are because 50/50 there probably scrolling through this comment section and god forbid they see this and reply to it.
Also if I do say the names it's probably harassment so yeah.
Also side note, I couldn't hear them. Thier voice is so low I had to put oh close captions😕😕
I can only make the argument that sexual horror is and must be handled differently than normal gorey horror
But yes i totally agree with you that its hypocritical to think that slasher movies and thus pro shipping are pretty much tbe same in regards to
"They influeneve our kiiids!"
Because i hear the argument that videogames cause violence too many times
Why is sexual horror different?
@@Furiitha096
Gore horror is relatively different if you get killed you dont really carry any scars
In sexual horror though you aren't necessarily killed and these scars are much deeper and will follow you as sex is a normal human thing (asexuals aside for a moment)
These horrors need to be treated differently as sexual horror is more delicate of a topic to talk about as there are many victims of sexual abuse, assault or harassment
(I hope I made my point clear)
this entire comment section is toxic and exhausting
Out of curiousity, have you read any genuine studies or even papers, I know there aren't on this exact subject but even just the gamers dilemma or fictional immorality v immoral fiction? Or are all your arguments just personal observations?
There *are* paper on the matter, antis just ignore them because acknowledging them hurts their hypocritical and puritanical believes.
Could you link some of the papers/studies? I would like to read them
@@TheFufu_ChanYT deletes comments with links. Fujoshi infi with a . In-between and @/ Purity_Culture on twt
@@TheFufu_ChanYT deletes comments with links. Fujoshi infi with a . In-between and @/ Purity_Culture on the ex-bird.
only mushroom girl can make an one hour response commentary to a 30 minute response commentary to her original 40 minute video 😎
@@tocasmiley360 a video being twice as long as the original is completely normal and very standard in the commentary community. The reason why their video was shorter than mine is because they only covered certain parts, I covered almost ALL of their video because it was ALL horrible.
i am NOT watching all this bro just say you think CP is okay and stop fucking yapping oh my lord😭🙏🏾
CP isn’t a thing.
1. CP has been used as a term for CSAM/CSEM (which can only happen to real minors.) interchangeably , which it shouldn’t be as its dehumanising
- why is it dehumanising? Well porn is consensual, children can’t consent.
- why can CSAM/CSEM only he used for actual real minors? Well it’s because fictional characters can’t be abused and exploited
2. CP has also been used for fictional loli/shota being depicted in porn , but fictional characters can’t consent because they aren’t real.. they can’t be hurt either. Meaning it isnt ‘CP’ just the same term as always. Porn if it’s based off of fictional characters solely
@@Niklaus_mikaelson_TVD Thank you for educating me about the terminology, I thought that the terms CP and CSAM were interchangeable. I do agree that fictional characters can’t be harmed or give consent because they’re fictional, but it’s less about that and more about the fact that anyone who consumes drawn CSAM (whether intentionally or not) can be negatively affected by it because it could give them the impression that those things are okay to do to a real life child. And god forbid a child sees it and believes that it would be okay if an adult assaulted them. Many child victims are already too afraid to speak up because of the authority that adults have over them, and consuming drawn or real CSAM would make it worse. Also, it’s just plain disgusting to have the desire to draw and/or see a child like that.
@@verycrypticguy you nearly got it lol, just few things that I would like to clear up!
CSAM/CSEM is drawn/real CSAM/CSEM. CSAM/CSEM is sexually explicit content involving a non fictional minor/child. CSAM/CSEM can’t happen to fictional characters.
It’s actually not that common for people to think it’s okay to do to real life children but yet again that’s why they shouldn’t be in those spaces of NSFW/18+ art or 16+ art [possibly 13+ art if they are under 13] because it can affect them especially because they are not mentally ready to consume it. Even if they were it is a space they shouldn’t be in
Girl, the only way you can get someoen to convince someoen is to not do it at all and say "Womp"
Historically Proshipping wasn't into shipping an adult and a child, it just means anti harassment. Don't feed them, and tell them they're a "brainrot" and move on.
Edit: I'm a neutral, if people are uncomfortable with the concept of Proshipping or Anti (I also had disagreements with proshippers), ignore and move on, or block. Fandom politics are useless.
Look I know you’re young but finding proshipping valid or defending its right to exist is EXTREMELY harmful and since you’re a minor you shouldn’t even be in these spaces at all.
Drawn depictions of children in lewd situations is LEGITIMATELY illegal even if it’s “fictional” or whatever excuse you make. Pro shipping is disturbing and disgusting, and illegal. Plain and simple.
Actually, no it's not! :)
18 U.S. Code 2256
(11) the term "indistinguishable" used with respect to a depiction, means virtually indistinguishable, in that the depiction is such that an ordinary person viewing the depiction would conclude that the depiction is of an actual minor engaged in s3xually explicit conduct. **This definition does not apply to depictions that are drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting minors or adults.**
@@TheFufu_Chan not illegal but degenerate, imagine actively wasting your time deliberately writing a story about grooming and abuse and thinking your art is good in anyway. Most people in this community are children and it beautifully shows how lost the new generation is.
@@TheFufu_Chan While loli does not depict actual children, the act was passed to make virtual child porn illegal. Since lolicon depicts an identifiable minor engaging in sexually explicit situations, it violates federal law. In other words, you could be arrested and charged with a crime if you possess any lolicon.
@@samoriedwards1167 Pretty sure the thing you're talking about is wrong, since there was a case in 2003 where a man was arrested for possession of lolicon, but he was allowed free since it was deemed unethical
Ok so, we all agree that sexualizing kids is wrong, right? If someone sexualizes a fictional child BECAUSE they’re a child, is that p3dophilia? What about if they sexualized them DESPITE being a child. What if it’s purely coping for trauma?
In my opinion, the first two are wrong and should have some sort of moral/legal consequences (obviously 1 is worse than 2 and imo is a form of p3dophilia), the last one is fine but I think it’s kinda weird a little bit.
Furthermore, if someone proship wants to be friends with me. If they do 1 ew yuck get away from me, if 2 or 3 I’ll kindly ask them to not talk about shipping discourse because I know we’d disagree (also because proship isn’t that serious, unless it’s in category 1)
I also really don’t get the proship attitude of being rude/confused when an anti gets weirded out when they[proshipper] express opinions, it’s not like either side are literal n@zis. You don’t need to lay your life down for fontcest. It’s honestly fair to be weirded out by proshippers (at least category 1 and 2 ones)
Agreed. It's disgusting, and vile.
In order for something to be p3dophilia, a child has to be harmed. No children are harmed in the creation of l0lisho content.
@@TheFufu_Chan its still gross, maybe non of this is illegal,, but its degerante and is the catylist for people who consume it to spiral down a rabbit hole of porn addiciton and low mental health. Just because something is legal doesn't mean its right, no morals contribute to the fall of society
Im all for artistic freedom as both an artist and writer, but most people who call them selves proshippers actively ship harmful thing's, and like peoples said its led to REAL kids getting groomed, dark content have all rights and should exist, but it shouldn't be glorified that leeds to bad things in real life. Things like adult x minor and incest have the right to exist as a horror subject or a warning, but if you like this as a cute story, you are the problem. Became fiction can affect reality, people who use this content to "help" themselves not act on these urges are also not right if you know you can harm a child in such a way as awful as sa then you need to get yourself real help by talking to a professional, and if you use this to cope with trauma you need a different way cause this normilizes it, also you replying to a victim by saying it was victim blaming to say the content they participated in led to their grooming was wrong, they stated the reason that person found them was that content for a reason. Point is dark, and taboo things should exist as a horror thing because nothing about these topics are cute and harmless.
that's a lot of words to say "i groom children" man 😂
Is the source for this claim in the room with us right now?
@frankyboy8513 The creator literally uses a comment from a victim saying the community that normalized this played a hand in their grooming (tf you mean where's the source)
@@Colla_pop and the creator litterally pointed out how the community they were a part of had nothing to do with it. Did you watch the video?
@frankyboy8513 I did but that was proof the VICTIM said it was related cause an older person saw them as a target do to the stuff in the proship COMMUNITY
NEW MUSHROOM GIRL VIDEO DROPPED !!!
i watched that video in ur server vc and it was so ass 😭😭
@DarkDocsHD made a callout video on you
I know and it was bad
1 hour long?? HELL NAH ☠️
This was great background noise for my bloody noncon satanivlis drawing /j
Honestly even if he saw the most recent episode film theory made on salad finger they would know where the zoophilic stuff came from since they literally show a clip of salad fingers going on a date with a dog and implied in the clip haveing s*x with the dog corps. I do more think this was supposed to be simbolic watching the episode, but even so by anti logic Firth is a necro zoophile because of animating that.
That was not put in positive light
Vincent: "Source: trust me bro"
this is how most antis act like, they're so dense on the head they can't make a argument with logic and resources, its crazy 😅😅
if you REALLY use your brain, really just try and think for one moment... i know it might be difficult to understand since you probably have the mental capacity of the children that you love seeing in s*xual pieces of media, but listen.
if you romanticise CSEM, r*pe, b*astiality, inc*st, etc in a piece of media, it will obviously attract degenerates who are romantically attracted to that stuff. is that a simple enough concept? great!
now, having given these freaks a safe space where they can discuss and normalise their perverted fantasies, do you SERIOUSLY think it's such a stretch to assume that they will act on those fantasies given the chance, since they've been in an echo chamber of like-minded people?
i don't know why you defend these ships, media pieces and communities, when they bring NOTHING positive... unless you're one of the people attracted to those things.
i hope you get well soon and realise that you are defending perverts and p*dos
💓
why r my comments being deleted :(
talk like a normal human please lmao
She has a speech impediment lil timmy how about you bite the curb?
@@saturnking-il4fp shes a mentally retarded terminally online professional yapper who makes degenerate arguments, how bout find a new idol to worship and defend?
this is so hard to watch because every 5 seconds you start blabbing about their poor mic quality or you just straight up start insulting them like dude shu t the fuck up and make an actual argument 😭😭🙏🙏
Nah jit defending cp
they were actually 100% correct, 💀
Even if they WERE (which they aren’t, I literally proved that in my video) they argued themself extremely poorly. *I* could make a better video arguing against proshippers than this. Not to mention their blatant dishonesty. LMAO
I hope this comment was a joke.
@@JustMe-bc2fj proshipping is just an unhealthy copying mechanism that just feeds off pedophilic urges
Average anti 🔥🔥
NGA ...
MG is cool Button
👇🏻
New comment because god the drama on my comment is so childish and tedious
What!
can you respond to moomin’s video on you?
Don't use Sam and Max freak
Too bad lmao
@@xxmushroom.girlxx I really hope your mom takes your phone away and puts you in a psychward
@@BAREKUMA bro you talk like your father didn't left to get the milk bruh
@@BAREKUMA and what you're butthurt cause she like a character/ serie? Sound like a you problem now lil kid
@@saturnking-il4fp my dad is actually in my life lol
Hey! I highly recommend blue archive :) proshipping is normal in the fandom and it is based. It's also a very good game!
Your a proshipper
I am yes
@@xxmushroom.girlxxso why do you support incest and abuse and pedophilia? Genuine question
i can't understand why you are getting so much hate everything you said about proshipping was actually really informative and helpful, also the debunking of misinformation was nice
i think people just assume profic= active paraphile or something along the lines of r4p1st/p3do
"informatative" jusr saying basless claims about how the other person dumb and she is not, yeah what a waste of time
:0 ...im a lil confuzled, i was told its not that bad then told it was bad...im not gonna pick sides with this anymore :/ imma just let this play out on its own, idk anymore, theres a lot of grey space abt proshipping that i do not know of. So yerp. Idk anymore 🧍
I will have to agree with you on that. I am also confuzled. 🧍
same. the whole debate is nonsense and the goal of the debate is to trick you into picking a side.
Real. don't pick sides and just do your own thing lmao. I've been doing that since I heard of shipping discourse