In programming we sometimes think about using composition instead of construction when creating objects-fun to think about it in the context of your discussion.
Sex not being a binary is wildly exaggerated. Around 0.018% of people are biologically intersex. I would say that, effectively, sex in humans (and other animals) is binary. But biology is messy, so the biological processes that produce animal forms sometimes deviate from that. What was evolutionarily selected for was an effective sex binary. We can now recognize the complexities and messy processes at play in biology, so we don't need to impose any sex (or gender) on people that fall outside that effective binary. But the arguments that we supposedly don't know how many sexes we should recognize are, I think, rather silly.
Clearly, Ms Haslanger has a good understanding of the differences between "physical reality" and the man-made aspects of reality. So many can't differentiate the two.
What's a definition of social construct? Something that society creates and agrees on. But the concept of "society" itself is a social construct. Thus we have a circular regression which makes all arguments that use "social construct" as their basis rather weak.
No, thats not how that works. Its not even necessary to have a society. If you and your friends creates your own rules, that is also a social construct. Its also a bit like saying physics is circular since it depends upon measuring physics. That things such as gender or language is a social construct is undeniable. Physics is that too to some extent, or at least the way we understand it. Social construct seldom, if ever, has no basis in reality. The practical use of using the word is mostly to say that it is changable. But some social constructs are so solid we often think of them as unchangable.
@@ions7581 yup. Some social cobstructs are really strong because they are adaptive, it blends with harcore biology. Yet these lunatics believe that if it can be changed it should be changed.
A whole field of study: Sociology ruclips.net/p/PL8dPuuaLjXtMJ-AfB_7J1538YKWkZAnGA ... I think there are are likely few female blacksmiths, not for any inability to understand the application of heat to metal, but the biology of the female doesn’t develop the strength to shape steel for hours.
Using the definition of gender to mean “gender is the social meaning of sex” sounds essentialist and that’s fine if you’re philosophising is arguing against gender essentialism given people with sexed bodies whether they are people with sex typical male bodies, female bodies, or a person with an atypical body due to many congenital variations of foetal sex development. don’t conform to those norms. I’m glad to hear it acknowledged women and trans women have different bodies and that if one can’t define what a woman is it will be hard to argue for women’s rights. Here’s the thing though. If “gender is the social meaning of sex” is argued for, doesn’t that explain why we now have people either claiming identifying with those essentialist gender norms means they are the sex which produces that norm, or claiming they are they sex of the gendered norm even if they only adopt 1 or 2 elements of the range of behaviours/practices that constitute the norms (both of which call themselves women), or even claim they don’t have a sex because they don’t conform to any of the gendered norms (non-binary). It seems to me this social movement of trying to elevate gender identities over material sex is causing chaos and the chaos is causing harm. It also seems to me some of the harms are arising because laws and policies were put into place before the democratic debate was had about if people on the ground wanted it. Sex is still a protected characteristic, but what value does it have if it’s relevance has been diluted by the addition of gender identity along side it. We have large numbers of women objecting to these changes in law that extend far beyond navigating urinals in bathrooms. There’s also concern with how children are responding to the transitional chaos by showing up at gender clinics and getting drugs that block their puberty, drugs that permanently feminise or masculinise their bodies opposite to what their puberty would have produced if it been allowed to proceed developmentally, and having healthy body parts removed or altered which can’t be reversed if they change their mind as they mature. And finally growing numbers of lesbians and gay men who are alarmed at the affect changing sexual orientation to gender orientation is having on children who may have turned out to be lesbian or gay but are now transitioning into being straight, and also the affects on the which people are insisting they be in their dating pools. Missing also is transitional chaos conversation is discussion of why are people transitioning: there is lots of evidence dysphoria has many causes which results in different kinds of people who identify as trans - sexologists talk of different orientations producing the phenomena: homosexual transexuals as one example, autogynephilia another. I’m glad empiricism is considered a component of the discussion now and not just subjectivity in the theorising of social constructivists, but limiting it to discussions of what does sex and gender mean for social identities is constraining discussions if doing so leaves out issues of sexual orientations, the significance of puberty, and the reasons why people suffer dysphoria and adopt a different identity whether they transition of not. Hopefully, Sean, you’ll invite some other experts on to tease out these issues further.
I'm not really following the full richness of your comment, but on the view I defend, sex and gender are distinct. Gender is something that takes different forms in different contexts, and no one is "essentially" of one gender or another. I also allow that "gender is the social meaning of sex" is only one interpretation of gender - I agree that the term 'gender' is used in different ways in different projects (theoretical or political). When attempting to explain "gender is the social meaning of sex" I was commenting on an interpretation of gender that was common in the 80s-90s.
🤔 I sometimes wonder what humanity would look like to a being that studies us across time and from afar, kind of like we study ants in an anthill... Could such a being make the distinction between "social constructs" and "natural behaviors"?
Sean, you really need to challenge your guests more often as these conversations are frequently not particularly enlightening because of they are frequently mostly recutations of their positions. I have observed when you chaleenege we get a much more interesting conversation and some real insights. Case in point, this episode would have benefited from this in particular.
He has talked about this in the AMAs. It's just not his aim on the podcast. He basically provides a platform for interesting people to expound on their area of expertise. Like Lex Fridman does, I suppose
@@MrFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Congratulations. You managed to call someone an emotionless egghead and point out what the humane treatments if humans should look like in the same comment.
@@Amethyst_Friend Lex is great! Between Lex, hubberman, curt jaimungal, and mindscape, there is so much scientific content to listen to. Have you heard of any other good science podcasts to listen to, particularly physics?
Even putting the trans/bathroom debate aside, I feel pretty strongly that all public bathrooms should be single-person only. It's just so much better that way. For everyone.
Except for the people who need to go to the bathroom lmao. How many times do you enter a public bathroom and there’s at least one person already in it? For me it’s probably the majority of the time. To have two single person bathrooms replace two normal ones would create overwhelmingly long lines. Especially at gatherings like concerts or sports events
Oh just the old American past time of illiterate mouthbreathers “doing their research” resulting in the traditional round of death threats for librarians and teachers.
bunch of Right Wing Ideologues getting their Feelings Hurt because they don't want to Learn about American History and rather just stay Drowning in Racist, Bigoted, Xenophobic Ideology. also see: White Fragility
1:18:00 This... This is such an important note of this podcast and critical theories, regardless if you think this is a good thing or not. Many academics in that field are not trying to be neutral. They are not trying to access the truth through a neutral perspective. Dr. Haslanger says she is fine with unbiased descriptive reasoning. However, those activists narrative is trying to make normative statements. Even if the solutions don't depend on the truth much, it is still important to present truth to people (white people specifically), so they can support the solutions. For instance, if you just call all white people racist (even if you redefine racism), they are not going to vote for your solutions. If an aspect of reality happens to disfavor a race-oriented narrative, then many of those scholars will simply ignore that aspect of reality. (I might be wrong, but at least they constantly give me such impression.) For instance, suppose the current apparent racial inequality is mostly because the current asymmetric state simply takes a long time to equilibrate... not mostly because of racist laws. However, this will not fit into a race oriented narrative, so the scholars would just ignore this aspect of reality and focus on how the system is systematically racist (which is a bad wording by itself since it conflates prior definition of racism). Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of actual racists who would find whatever chance to bad mouth african americans. They often criticize the notion of "systematic racism" in an effort to deny any disadvantage african american face. They are wrong. However, I still think getting the reality truthfully is still an very important step in solving a problem. This takes neutral perspective instead of activist perspective.
The critical theorist were clearly anti west and anti science. Adorno and others from the Frankfurt school delineated these points in all of their foundational texts. Read the stuff yourself and compute their algebra.
@@ludviglidstrom6924 There are forms of ideologies which are self destructive. Western or not. Nihilism is ultimately destructive, certain forms of post millenial pietism, certain form of extreme environmentalism and so on. It doesn't matter if it western or not. Completely beside the point.
@@SallyHaslanger Because Adorno is one of the founders of critical theory, the foundation of critical race theory. That's why. The founders of CRT have either directly studied under him or studied under one of his students.
@@PilsnerGrip CRT has nothing to do with MLK. MLK did not even write any of his speeches. Clarence B Jones used to work on Wall Street, highly doubt that he was anti west. It was Hoover who was pretending that MLK was pro communism, although he might have been a social democrat. Being on the left does not equalize to being anti west.
I already made one long comment, but I remembered didn’t you used to say you were a naturalist Sean? You seem to have moved a long way from that it seems if you agree so much with constructivism. I also find it so peculiar these US conversations seem to think the version of left vs right US polarisation explains much of the dissent on this topic, when so much of the dissent outside the US is coming from women and people who are lesbian or gay men who are on the political left.
I'm a naturalist. I don't see what in my work is anti-naturalist. The natural world includes humans, human thought, human interaction, and the causal consequences of it.
Natural Laws are in everything that has a Life cycle. everything that is alive in the World, from the Mountains, the Sky, Water to all Animals including us..
@GRUMMLER Nature is Always moving, growing, changing etc. it's indeed active and alive regardless of our understanding and awareness of it. Mother Earth is an Alive Planet. 🌍
Doesn't arguing one's "body" is a social construction cede authority to the people who created that social construction? In other words Sally's argument is incredibly stultifying, it in itself reinforces that problematic social construction. I'd argue a better way to achieve freedom is to apriori say no one has control over who I am. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. If I claim sovereignty over my body and my mind then I am empowered, I'm freer than someone who says otherwise.
I'm wondering if you think that your social circumstances have had no causal impact on your body? Do you think the history of human social interaction has had no causal impact on your body? This doesn't mean that we can't overcome some of the effects - after all, we have medical technology, etc. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
@@SallyHaslanger I'm not denying that social circumstances effected my body. I was an athlete in college and hurt my back and was out for a year. Should I hold a grudge toward the guy who designed the weight lifting program? I didn't. I took the year off and got really good at swimming. Then I joined the chorus and had a grand old time. My point is life happens. Adverse events made me a stronger person to the point I'm now almost thankful I hurt my back. The glass if half full instead of half empty etc.
It seems like the only valid categories that are worth analyzing with critical theory are connected with past discrimination. This seems like we can never get rid of the category of race for all eternity, even though it is a non scientific classification of humans. It seems really obvious to me that this is not a healthy way of seeing the world or moving forward as a society. And people wonder why victimhood culture is on the rise. This is the actual worst way of addressing social problems in the world, because you get more legitimation of your movement by focusing more and more on your victimization. The way we treat individuals with therapy is the actual opposite of this path. We need to get away from common enemy identity politics and use common humanity identity politics, like in the civil rights era.
She's kinda sus but not as bad as I feared. I did hope for more pushback from Sean as much of her perspective is foundationless but at least we heard her POV. Still don't understand why she wants to place blame on societies rather than individuals when it comes to personal choices. Choosing one's profession based entirely on an understanding of the contemporary stereotype of one's sex is just a bad methodology -- you can't then complain about a mediocre salary. It's not the fault of men or society that you didn't choose a better career path. 'Social meaning' is both garbage and irrelevant for most if not all purposes. Hope she continues her path of learning about these topics.
We don't all have the same choice architecture. So yes, we may be responsible for our personal choices within the choice architecture we are given, but who is responsible for the choice architecture?
if you were born, raised and lived on an Island then what you said would be more valid. but not matter how much you want to believe in full Autonomy. you still come from somewhere. influence by something. affected by your Environment etc. Societies are basically what shape, control and decide a lot for you.... there's no escaping this Fact.
That’s quite the goal Dr. Carroll-I’m on the bus, as Ken Kesey would say, and will continue to do what I can to make your podcast heard worldwide. 😎🥂🖖🏼
Jordan Peterson?! 😂😂😂😂 The king of irrelevant word salad. He’s a d-bag and now a self declared Christian. Ten bucks says He’s lying and just trying to save face after a pill addiction and is pandering to the Christian community for some kind of following.
@@rogerbee697 As far as religion goes, I disagree with him. He is however right when he talks about the false claims of the Far Left social Justice types.
@@kadourimdou43 "about the false claims of the Far Left social Justice types" let me guess, "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" ... right? 😊
Loving the bathroom topic. Very insightful, and I'm hearing some things I've never heard before, even after following several Trans activists for years now. Different perspectives are so valuable to hear (sorry for the bad grammar, I'm a hick 🤣)
The metaphysical apologia at least betrayed the injustice of the established order through the incongruence of concept and reality. The impartiality of scientific language deprived what was powerless of the strength to make itself heard and merely provided the existing order with a neutral sign for itself. Such neutrality is more metaphysical than metaphysics. -Adorno basically saying that science itself oppresses those without the language of science. But yeah, critical theory is the way to go.
I have a similar view, we came from an age where some countries indoctrinated binary gender female/male teachead early in school manuals, reinforced by society. Thus, you have focused too much on women. That came with the prejudice that, by the way of being the vessel for our species reproduction, women should be able to enjoy many privileged role in social tissue. Those areas of security.... Note that the idea of the most ancient venus ♀ includes the idea that motherhood is sacred, and Consequently, have generated this system of oppression and discrimination as "protection dome" putting the man in the "dangerous situations", actually many societies had a matriarchal structure till that paradigm expanded till almost all the world was patriarchal. Although women operated, always have articulated, an underground resistance movement. Now women invoke a period of at least three hundred years of dominance. Disruption is less effective than change. Like slowly boiling a lobster, that is the way how dictatorship also infects society, epidemiologically propagating. Important to also see a time perspective of sexuality. Gender, in both sexes usually open the spectrum over time or narrow by growing prejudice, losing openness. WASP are falling down everywhere. Personality, raised in a family where women were strong, initially that has identified me with my father, thinking, I'll never be humiliated as him. Then it became clear that my mother was fighting for leadership and equality for women. So, when I had my three daughters, I always oriented them to achieving professional goals and to express freely about gender. Unfortunately, at the same time I was, by consequence of trauma and Shock of Strong Character nature, dominating their mothers in ways only later became evident to me. Ambiguity. Experienced Surgeon at 35, Senior supervisor coder at 24, Designer and digital artist at 18. So I leaded them well, my first daughters and a "semistepdaughter" also. No, it created in them fear of committing relations, maternity and more. On the LBGT++ way of existence, I was always including. I must say that all my travesty, Drag, gay friends used freely the bathroom of their choice. Never have I seen often (but yes, under the hood) or tolerated that or any other discrimination, being object of abuse in consequence of being pretty as a girl before ten years old, Obesity across time, and openness to gender gradient from teenager. So I just know but is difficult to me understanding the little big questions of bathrooms, health, race, color, nationality. Always have consider myself as a citizen of Earth, Solar System, Via Lacteal, Local Cluster, Universe. Maybe because at eight sci fi, pulp fiction, crime novel writers were my real teachers, as Alice Cooper, the muscle of love at eight also, my first Album, Pink Floyd WYWH the sequel..., The Doors, Janis Joplin, Patty Smith till Billie Eilish and Taylor Momsen, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaught and progeny, always moving forward and backward in musical taste. Keeping long story short, I actually say my soul is Black, my gender is opening as my sexual experience moves forward, am I a Man basically hetero but not so much, type thinking that three ou four people relations with sexuality involved and also only intimacy is the ideal structure to achieve as social unit? Politically moving forward to sustainability and inclusion by education as a position, atheist prayer, multidisciplinary view as in Mindscape Podcast, conscient that we are still torturing, raping, abusing, social engineering shaped bodies and minds. In a vector in Hilbert space, maybe beyond many worlds theory of foundations of quantum mechanics as Gravitational waves, Dark Matter, Higgs Field, Dark Energy and the Hard Problem, AGI, Cryptos, multi planetary life, the fall of the American Empire would be probably playing a role by ending the post modern paradigm (How come?) What will bee will be while time perception changes slowly. Wikipedia, Podcasts, Music Streaming, or Tik Tok added to the seventh or eighth arts the capability of pushing humanity change. But now I know how good the Trivium and Quadrivium were. So, let's go, Horatio, maybe this is the winter of our discontented including fear in an handful of dust, good fences actually made good neighbors or the female of tbe species is more dangerous than the male? Anne Sexton, Sylvia Plath, Maya Angelou also? I always honored by your position in the podcast and guests Professor Sean Carrol, congratulations for preposterous universe, because it actually is, but also a wonderful life for those who know something about the naked Ape, gender neutral but not.... 🙏
Shame that mainstream discussions about these issues aren't as good as this
In programming we sometimes think about using composition instead of construction when creating objects-fun to think about it in the context of your discussion.
Sex not being a binary is wildly exaggerated. Around 0.018% of people are biologically intersex. I would say that, effectively, sex in humans (and other animals) is binary. But biology is messy, so the biological processes that produce animal forms sometimes deviate from that. What was evolutionarily selected for was an effective sex binary. We can now recognize the complexities and messy processes at play in biology, so we don't need to impose any sex (or gender) on people that fall outside that effective binary. But the arguments that we supposedly don't know how many sexes we should recognize are, I think, rather silly.
"Men go out and women stay home" ... is that the BEST you can do? Where do you live, Saudi Arabia?
I use examples to illustrate ideas, even if (a) they are not universal claims, and (b) the point is to show that what I'm describing is ridiculous.
Did she answer the question about the strength of the idea of social construction? Just heard a bunch of blabber very hard to follow.
Not sure what you mean by "the strength of the idea of social construction." Can you explain?
@@SallyHaslanger 10:20 how weak or strong the notion of social construction
Thank You, enjoyyed..☝
Absolutely stellar conversation. Thank you.
Fascinating talk, I just couldn't stop listening.
Clearly, Ms Haslanger has a good understanding of the differences between "physical reality" and the man-made aspects of reality. So many can't differentiate the two.
hear! hear ! ☝
What's a definition of social construct? Something that society creates and agrees on. But the concept of "society" itself is a social construct. Thus we have a circular regression which makes all arguments that use "social construct" as their basis rather weak.
No, thats not how that works. Its not even necessary to have a society. If you and your friends creates your own rules, that is also a social construct.
Its also a bit like saying physics is circular since it depends upon measuring physics.
That things such as gender or language is a social construct is undeniable. Physics is that too to some extent, or at least the way we understand it. Social construct seldom, if ever, has no basis in reality.
The practical use of using the word is mostly to say that it is changable. But some social constructs are so solid we often think of them as unchangable.
@@ions7581 yup. Some social cobstructs are really strong because they are adaptive, it blends with harcore biology.
Yet these lunatics believe that if it can be changed it should be changed.
@@synsynsy found the incel
@@synsynsy I don't think it is true that if something can be changed it should be changed. Not sure who you have in mind?
A whole field of study: Sociology ruclips.net/p/PL8dPuuaLjXtMJ-AfB_7J1538YKWkZAnGA ... I think there are are likely few female blacksmiths, not for any inability to understand the application of heat to metal, but the biology of the female doesn’t develop the strength to shape steel for hours.
Using the definition of gender to mean “gender is the social meaning of sex” sounds essentialist and that’s fine if you’re philosophising is arguing against gender essentialism given people with sexed bodies whether they are people with sex typical male bodies, female bodies, or a person with an atypical body due to many congenital variations of foetal sex development. don’t conform to those norms. I’m glad to hear it acknowledged women and trans women have different bodies and that if one can’t define what a woman is it will be hard to argue for women’s rights. Here’s the thing though. If “gender is the social meaning of sex” is argued for, doesn’t that explain why we now have people either claiming identifying with those essentialist gender norms means they are the sex which produces that norm, or claiming they are they sex of the gendered norm even if they only adopt 1 or 2 elements of the range of behaviours/practices that constitute the norms (both of which call themselves women), or even claim they don’t have a sex because they don’t conform to any of the gendered norms (non-binary). It seems to me this social movement of trying to elevate gender identities over material sex is causing chaos and the chaos is causing harm. It also seems to me some of the harms are arising because laws and policies were put into place before the democratic debate was had about if people on the ground wanted it. Sex is still a protected characteristic, but what value does it have if it’s relevance has been diluted by the addition of gender identity along side it. We have large numbers of women objecting to these changes in law that extend far beyond navigating urinals in bathrooms. There’s also concern with how children are responding to the transitional chaos by showing up at gender clinics and getting drugs that block their puberty, drugs that permanently feminise or masculinise their bodies opposite to what their puberty would have produced if it been allowed to proceed developmentally, and having healthy body parts removed or altered which can’t be reversed if they change their mind as they mature. And finally growing numbers of lesbians and gay men who are alarmed at the affect changing sexual orientation to gender orientation is having on children who may have turned out to be lesbian or gay but are now transitioning into being straight, and also the affects on the which people are insisting they be in their dating pools. Missing also is transitional chaos conversation is discussion of why are people transitioning: there is lots of evidence dysphoria has many causes which results in different kinds of people who identify as trans - sexologists talk of different orientations producing the phenomena: homosexual transexuals as one example, autogynephilia another. I’m glad empiricism is considered a component of the discussion now and not just subjectivity in the theorising of social constructivists, but limiting it to discussions of what does sex and gender mean for social identities is constraining discussions if doing so leaves out issues of sexual orientations, the significance of puberty, and the reasons why people suffer dysphoria and adopt a different identity whether they transition of not. Hopefully, Sean, you’ll invite some other experts on to tease out these issues further.
I'm not really following the full richness of your comment, but on the view I defend, sex and gender are distinct. Gender is something that takes different forms in different contexts, and no one is "essentially" of one gender or another. I also allow that "gender is the social meaning of sex" is only one interpretation of gender - I agree that the term 'gender' is used in different ways in different projects (theoretical or political). When attempting to explain "gender is the social meaning of sex" I was commenting on an interpretation of gender that was common in the 80s-90s.
would love to see a longer time format and video if possible!
🤔
I sometimes wonder what humanity would look like to a being that studies us across time and from afar, kind of like we study ants in an anthill...
Could such a being make the distinction between "social constructs" and "natural behaviors"?
Sean, you really need to challenge your guests more often as these conversations are frequently not particularly enlightening because of they are frequently mostly recutations of their positions. I have observed when you chaleenege we get a much more interesting conversation and some real insights. Case in point, this episode would have benefited from this in particular.
He has talked about this in the AMAs. It's just not his aim on the podcast. He basically provides a platform for interesting people to expound on their area of expertise. Like Lex Fridman does, I suppose
@@MrFaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Congratulations. You managed to call someone an emotionless egghead and point out what the humane treatments if humans should look like in the same comment.
@@Amethyst_Friend Lex is great! Between Lex, hubberman, curt jaimungal, and mindscape, there is so much scientific content to listen to. Have you heard of any other good science podcasts to listen to, particularly physics?
For someone relatively smart, whenever Sean has to take the defensive stance on a position he has, he is usually pretty narrow sighted.
Yessss this is SUCH a needed conversation! Great intro btw, Sean is the Lopez Alt of physics, or Kenji is the Caroll of cooking
Even putting the trans/bathroom debate aside, I feel pretty strongly that all public bathrooms should be single-person only. It's just so much better that way. For everyone.
Except for the people who need to go to the bathroom lmao. How many times do you enter a public bathroom and there’s at least one person already in it? For me it’s probably the majority of the time. To have two single person bathrooms replace two normal ones would create overwhelmingly long lines. Especially at gatherings like concerts or sports events
Unless you expect companies to install 5-10 bathrooms that I assume would span one whole wall of most facilities. Seems kind of far fetched tho
As someone who isn't american, can someone explain what's happening with critical race theory in american news that Sean doesn't want to bring up?
Banning of books and discussion in schools. It's sad.
Oh just the old American past time of illiterate mouthbreathers “doing their research” resulting in the traditional round of death threats for librarians and teachers.
bunch of Right Wing Ideologues getting their Feelings Hurt because they don't want to Learn about American History and rather just stay Drowning in Racist, Bigoted, Xenophobic Ideology. also see: White Fragility
brainwashing of kids with commie propaganda
1:18:00
This... This is such an important note of this podcast and critical theories, regardless if you think this is a good thing or not. Many academics in that field are not trying to be neutral. They are not trying to access the truth through a neutral perspective. Dr. Haslanger says she is fine with unbiased descriptive reasoning. However, those activists narrative is trying to make normative statements. Even if the solutions don't depend on the truth much, it is still important to present truth to people (white people specifically), so they can support the solutions. For instance, if you just call all white people racist (even if you redefine racism), they are not going to vote for your solutions.
If an aspect of reality happens to disfavor a race-oriented narrative, then many of those scholars will simply ignore that aspect of reality. (I might be wrong, but at least they constantly give me such impression.)
For instance, suppose the current apparent racial inequality is mostly because the current asymmetric state simply takes a long time to equilibrate... not mostly because of racist laws. However, this will not fit into a race oriented narrative, so the scholars would just ignore this aspect of reality and focus on how the system is systematically racist (which is a bad wording by itself since it conflates prior definition of racism).
Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of actual racists who would find whatever chance to bad mouth african americans. They often criticize the notion of "systematic racism" in an effort to deny any disadvantage african american face. They are wrong. However, I still think getting the reality truthfully is still an very important step in solving a problem. This takes neutral perspective instead of activist perspective.
The critical theorist were clearly anti west and anti science. Adorno and others from the Frankfurt school delineated these points in all of their foundational texts. Read the stuff yourself and compute their algebra.
Was MLK anti-west, or was he anti-injustices happening in it?
@@PilsnerGrip Why are we talking about Adorno? Critical theory is a broad tent.
@@ludviglidstrom6924 There are forms of ideologies which are self destructive. Western or not. Nihilism is ultimately destructive, certain forms of post millenial pietism, certain form of extreme environmentalism and so on. It doesn't matter if it western or not. Completely beside the point.
@@SallyHaslanger Because Adorno is one of the founders of critical theory, the foundation of critical race theory. That's why. The founders of CRT have either directly studied under him or studied under one of his students.
@@PilsnerGrip CRT has nothing to do with MLK. MLK did not even write any of his speeches. Clarence B Jones used to work on Wall Street, highly doubt that he was anti west. It was Hoover who was pretending that MLK was pro communism, although he might have been a social democrat. Being on the left does not equalize to being anti west.
I already made one long comment, but I remembered didn’t you used to say you were a naturalist Sean? You seem to have moved a long way from that it seems if you agree so much with constructivism. I also find it so peculiar these US conversations seem to think the version of left vs right US polarisation explains much of the dissent on this topic, when so much of the dissent outside the US is coming from women and people who are lesbian or gay men who are on the political left.
I'm a naturalist. I don't see what in my work is anti-naturalist. The natural world includes humans, human thought, human interaction, and the causal consequences of it.
Natural Laws are in everything that has a Life cycle. everything that is alive in the World, from the Mountains, the Sky, Water to all Animals including us..
@@SallyHaslanger Enjoyed this episode. Thanks
@GRUMMLER
Nature is Always moving, growing, changing etc. it's indeed active and alive regardless of our understanding and awareness of it. Mother Earth is an Alive Planet. 🌍
Doesn't arguing one's "body" is a social construction cede authority to the people who created that social construction? In other words Sally's argument is incredibly stultifying, it in itself reinforces that problematic social construction. I'd argue a better way to achieve freedom is to apriori say no one has control over who I am. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant. If I claim sovereignty over my body and my mind then I am empowered, I'm freer than someone who says otherwise.
It is not ceding all authority. She is just arguing that one cannot step outside of societal influences.
We’ve done that already. Remember John Locke and Grotius’ explication of natural rights?
@@gaulindidier5995 You lost me, mind explaining in more detail?
I'm wondering if you think that your social circumstances have had no causal impact on your body? Do you think the history of human social interaction has had no causal impact on your body? This doesn't mean that we can't overcome some of the effects - after all, we have medical technology, etc. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
@@SallyHaslanger I'm not denying that social circumstances effected my body. I was an athlete in college and hurt my back and was out for a year. Should I hold a grudge toward the guy who designed the weight lifting program? I didn't. I took the year off and got really good at swimming. Then I joined the chorus and had a grand old time. My point is life happens. Adverse events made me a stronger person to the point I'm now almost thankful I hurt my back. The glass if half full instead of half empty etc.
It seems like the only valid categories that are worth analyzing with critical theory are connected with past discrimination.
This seems like we can never get rid of the category of race for all eternity, even though it is a non scientific classification of humans.
It seems really obvious to me that this is not a healthy way of seeing the world or moving forward as a society.
And people wonder why victimhood culture is on the rise.
This is the actual worst way of addressing social problems in the world, because you get more legitimation of your movement by focusing more and more on your victimization.
The way we treat individuals with therapy is the actual opposite of this path.
We need to get away from common enemy identity politics and use common humanity identity politics, like in the civil rights era.
This was great!
Social constructs all the way down.
She is such a fantastic interview I loved every minute of this
She's kinda sus but not as bad as I feared. I did hope for more pushback from Sean as much of her perspective is foundationless but at least we heard her POV. Still don't understand why she wants to place blame on societies rather than individuals when it comes to personal choices. Choosing one's profession based entirely on an understanding of the contemporary stereotype of one's sex is just a bad methodology -- you can't then complain about a mediocre salary. It's not the fault of men or society that you didn't choose a better career path. 'Social meaning' is both garbage and irrelevant for most if not all purposes. Hope she continues her path of learning about these topics.
We don't all have the same choice architecture. So yes, we may be responsible for our personal choices within the choice architecture we are given, but who is responsible for the choice architecture?
if you were born, raised and lived on an Island then what you said would be more valid. but not matter how much you want to believe in full Autonomy. you still come from somewhere. influence by something. affected by your Environment etc. Societies are basically what shape, control and decide a lot for you.... there's no escaping this Fact.
That’s quite the goal Dr. Carroll-I’m on the bus, as Ken Kesey would say, and will continue to do what I can to make your podcast heard worldwide. 😎🥂🖖🏼
Would Sean Carroll extend a branch in the other direction, and speak to Jordan Peterson. Then get a non Woke argument on social issues.
@@Dontarguewithmedummy Like this episode.
How is "woke" a valid category in this discussion?
Jordan Peterson?! 😂😂😂😂
The king of irrelevant word salad. He’s a d-bag and now a self declared Christian. Ten bucks says He’s lying and just trying to save face after a pill addiction and is pandering to the Christian community for some kind of following.
@@rogerbee697 As far as religion goes, I disagree with him. He is however right when he talks about the false claims of the Far Left social Justice types.
@@kadourimdou43
"about the false claims of the Far Left social Justice types"
let me guess, "I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands" ... right? 😊
Loving the bathroom topic. Very insightful, and I'm hearing some things I've never heard before, even after following several Trans activists for years now. Different perspectives are so valuable to hear (sorry for the bad grammar, I'm a hick 🤣)
the devil is in the details.
Critical theory 🤮
Great argument ...
What do you mean by "critical theory"?
@@SallyHaslanger
he means it makes his little Propagandized Brain feel an ouchie. 🤕
@@naturallaw1733 you're literally subbed to mindless commies, you have no leg to stand on
@@Daniel-ih4zh
right, because you're the Level-Headed, Rational, Sane one here ..? 😏🤹♂
E seja sobre nós a graça do Senhor, nosso Deus;
e confirma sobre nós a obra das nossas mãos;
sim, confirma a obra das nossas mãos.
Salmo 90:17
Looks like we lost Sean.. he's infected now
Looks like you don't understand the point of this podcast.
did you even listen to the podcast?
@@synsynsy I'm guessing they formed an opinion without listening to the podcast. Totally a way of thinking that Sean Carroll 100% supports... not.
Looks like Sean wasn't really on "your side" from the beginning, because it seems evident that you haven't correctly understand him.
@@synsynsy no, I made it maybe 15 mins, I knew from the title I wouldn't make it far.
Careful. There's some potentially problematic stuff in here! The mob is going to come for you for expressing some of these ideas
you mean thee Ideologues... 😏
The metaphysical apologia at least betrayed the injustice of the established order through the incongruence of concept and reality. The impartiality of scientific language deprived what was powerless of the strength to make itself heard and merely provided the existing order with a neutral sign for itself. Such neutrality is more metaphysical than metaphysics. -Adorno basically saying that science itself oppresses those without the language of science. But yeah, critical theory is the way to go.
I have a similar view, we came from an age where some countries indoctrinated binary gender female/male teachead early in school manuals, reinforced by society.
Thus, you have focused too much on women.
That came with the prejudice that, by the way of being the vessel for our species reproduction, women should be able to enjoy many privileged role in social tissue. Those areas of security....
Note that the idea of the most ancient venus ♀ includes the idea that motherhood is sacred, and
Consequently, have generated this system of oppression and discrimination as "protection dome" putting the man in the "dangerous situations", actually many societies had a matriarchal structure till that paradigm expanded till almost all the world was patriarchal.
Although women operated, always have articulated, an underground resistance movement.
Now women invoke a period of at least three hundred years of dominance.
Disruption is less effective than change.
Like slowly boiling a lobster, that is the way how dictatorship also infects society, epidemiologically propagating.
Important to also see a time perspective of sexuality.
Gender, in both sexes usually open the spectrum over time or narrow by growing prejudice, losing openness.
WASP are falling down everywhere.
Personality, raised in a family where women were strong, initially that has identified me with my father, thinking, I'll never be humiliated as him.
Then it became clear that my mother was fighting for leadership and equality for women.
So, when I had my three daughters, I always oriented them to achieving professional goals and to express freely about gender.
Unfortunately, at the same time I was, by consequence of trauma and Shock of Strong Character nature, dominating their mothers in ways only later became evident to me. Ambiguity.
Experienced Surgeon at 35, Senior supervisor coder at 24, Designer and digital artist at 18.
So I leaded them well, my first daughters and a "semistepdaughter" also.
No, it created in them fear of committing relations, maternity and more.
On the LBGT++ way of existence, I was always including.
I must say that all my travesty, Drag, gay friends used freely the bathroom of their choice.
Never have I seen often (but yes, under the hood) or tolerated that or any other discrimination, being object of abuse in consequence of being pretty as a girl before ten years old, Obesity across time, and openness to gender gradient from teenager.
So I just know but is difficult to me understanding the little big questions of bathrooms, health, race, color, nationality.
Always have consider myself as a citizen of Earth, Solar System, Via Lacteal, Local Cluster, Universe.
Maybe because at eight sci fi, pulp fiction, crime novel writers were my real teachers, as Alice Cooper, the muscle of love at eight also, my first Album, Pink Floyd WYWH the sequel..., The Doors, Janis Joplin, Patty Smith till Billie Eilish and Taylor Momsen, Dinah Washington, Sarah Vaught and progeny, always moving forward and backward in musical taste.
Keeping long story short, I actually say my soul is Black, my gender is opening as my sexual experience moves forward, am I a Man basically hetero but not so much, type thinking that three ou four people relations with sexuality involved and also only intimacy is the ideal structure to achieve as social unit?
Politically moving forward to sustainability and inclusion by education as a position, atheist prayer, multidisciplinary view as in Mindscape Podcast, conscient that we are still torturing, raping, abusing, social engineering shaped bodies and minds.
In a vector in Hilbert space, maybe beyond many worlds theory of foundations of quantum mechanics as Gravitational waves, Dark Matter, Higgs Field, Dark Energy and the Hard Problem, AGI, Cryptos, multi planetary life, the fall of the American Empire would be probably playing a role by ending the post modern paradigm (How come?)
What will bee will be while time perception changes slowly.
Wikipedia, Podcasts, Music Streaming, or Tik Tok added to the seventh or eighth arts the capability of pushing humanity change. But now I know how good the Trivium and Quadrivium were.
So, let's go, Horatio, maybe this is the winter of our discontented including fear in an handful of dust, good fences actually made good neighbors or the female of tbe species is more dangerous than the male? Anne Sexton, Sylvia Plath, Maya Angelou also?
I always honored by your position in the podcast and guests Professor Sean Carrol, congratulations for preposterous universe, because it actually is, but also a wonderful life for those who know something about the naked Ape, gender neutral but not.... 🙏
thanks to Lex Friedman, and in turn Joe Rogan for polarizing advance scientists