Yeah. Kinda. Yu-Gi-Oh has similar issues although less severe, and only because it had over 20 years to figure out, and is still way too prone to become broken due to extra deck, specially with Links.
@@gmradio2436 I wouldn't say that's worse, it's just getting locked out of a gameplan. That's mostly due to komoney forgetting to make the main deck have a payoff, so the game fell into generic extra deck monster spam. Which in it of itself isnt exactly bad since it allows for easy side deck building and flexibility is yugioh's main thing, but most of the extra deck monsters are so generic that _every_ deck can effectively run them, not just fire decks getting or water decks getting a good, unique card to them for example
@@ashemabahumat4173 No, Yu-Gi-Oh! Is much worse off with its reliance on the extra deck than Magic. The community just adapted to it. Before snap replying, this is a comparison to Magic, not saying Yu-Gi-Oh! Is bad. It is Very Rare for a Magic deck to not have a win con in the Main deck. The Inverse is true in Yu-Gi-Oh! With the win con normally living in the extra deck.
@@N12015 yeah the game constantly gets broken by ed monsters, largely just for having too strong of an effect for how easy they are to summon. Its also just considered such an integral component to the game that every deck is designed with it in mind at this point. Even decks like rescue ace without ed monsters themselves still need to use generic options to win.
No joke, when i first started parsing these, I honestly thought _stacking_ them was possible so long as you could still meet the requirements, with only the likes of Gyruda+Obosh or Keruga+Lurrus being impossible. I can't even imagine the terrors of *multiple* companions at once.
Bit of a (maybe) controversial take here, but I think that since they changed the companion rules, the actual mechanic is more or less fine at this point. The main problem is WotC did a hilariously shit job actually *balancing* the ten they printed. The only way the companion mechanic can work and be remotely balanced is if the companion restrictions get harder and harder to meet the more powerful the companion is on the battlefield. By literally *any* reasonable design framework, Lutri and Umori should have been the most powerful companions hands down. If they would have switched the power levels of Lutri and Umori with Lurrus and Yorion, i don't think the mechanic, especially post-errata would be as strongly disliked by so many people.
this... i dont think compains were a bad idea" i think they should havce just been weaker.. cards like kaheera were fine. cards like lurrus would see 4 of in the mainboard even without companion printed on them... thats the main issue. also.. i find the idea that " they fundamentally changed magic in a way it could never recover from" is BS.. planeswalkers did that more than companions did.
I love the concept of the Companion Mechanic, but I don't argue about why it's hated. Their existence is restrictive to making your deck fit the requirement, plus the effects are more brutal. This could have led to hatred on the levels of like Yu-Gi-Oh with Mystic Mine.
@@gmradio2436 Definetly comparable. Even if the cards are vanilla , they are fairly deck building clause that give you a boost without having to draw the card in question. Extra deck serves more as a toolbox and a way to access your wincons
@@thonk5262 Is English a dead language? No, Baku is not the same as the cat. Baku provides constant buff from turn zero, where the cat is closer to the gen 1 deck build cards. Specifically that priest one that set your power cost to zero. It must hit the field to trigger the effect. Being available from trun one is closer to the quest mechanics.
@@thonk5262Genn and Baku do give you the boost without drawing them, but you don’t even need to play them either. Companions insist that you have to spend the mana to get them out before you start getting any of the benefits. The magic equivalent of an upgraded Hero Power would be like starting the game with an Isochron Scepter already out with a Krenko’s Command or Lava Spike already attached to it.
Your potential solution of printing tons of companions to give you options reminds me of Flesh and Blood, specifically equipment. Each hero can choose four armour pieces and one or two weapons which are on the board from the beginning of the game. You always have access to their effects, which can be extremely powerful. It's balanced by giving most heroes a variety of options, so the opportunity cost of forgoing one powerful piece for another is often meaningful. This is also a great example of how it warps the game. Every impactful equipment piece dramatically informs how the deck is played and centralizes your strategy around it. Even equipment with abilities that seem marginal at a glance can end up exceptionally powerful simply by virtue of being accessible at any time. Fyendal's Spring Tunic conpletely changes how tons of decks evaluate the mana costs of cards, since occasionally getting an extra mana for free is just that strong. I could go on, but it largely works in FaB because the entire game is built around equipment from the outset. So I think the solution for Magic is to have a separate companion-informed fornat where companions can run wild, dramatically influencing the decks around them and allow their game-warping presence to shine. Maybe make it a multiplayer singleton format to emphasize how these designs try to be casual and fun. Name it something that showcases the companion as your partner and the figurehead of the deck, like General, or Lieutenant, or something.
The biggest issue with companion is that some of the conditions were not actual opportunity costs. Lurrus could had been good but not broken if it said "all spells have converted mana cost 2 or less" instead of permanents. Zirda could had been changed to require all cards in your deck to be permanents instead of each permanent having an activated ability.
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I like companions, I was aiming to build at least one deck with each companion - mostly pioneer decks. Lurrus is banned pretty much everywhere. One third of the companions I have never seen in play anywhere: Lutri, Omori and Zirda. Kaheera, Obosh and Jegantha are just 1 extra card in decks where it doesn't matter (in Kaheera Cuntrol-Decks all the other 60 cards are much more of a pain, and Aggro decks with Obosh and Jegantha are usually running on empty before they can play their companions) Admittedly Gyruda, Keruga and Yorion aren't fun to play against; Gyruda is just a Spark Double Combo Deck in 100% of the times, while Keruga and Yorion are huge valueplays. And nowadays Keruga Decks are also just Discover combodecks... they never play Keruga though, it's just the implication that you're up against a boring combodeck that makes this miserable, not the companion. In fact the companion often warns you about the deck your opponent is playing! I dont see much issues with Companions, they pretty much spoil your whole tactic to the opponent and are often too slow and clunky, I for one would love to see more.
The solution is simple: make companion restricted to singleton formats. Print a series of new companions with the specific companion restriction that Lutri had, and then also make them count as part of the total number of cards in your deck, like how the partner mechanic works, but not as powerful. Next thing you do is just make them not so powerful. Maybe give them effects that can only be used once per turn, or just really underpowered or basic utility abilities. The problem with these cards was less the fact that players could have access to them and moreso how busted their abilities were. If the abilities werent so busted, there wouldnt have been as much of an issue outside of commander-ifying other formats.
Companion should never have been in Standard. It should have only been in a supplement set that wouldn't be allowed in competitive formats. With it being set in something like that would have made it a lot more restrictive and would only cause problems at casual tables. I will say that I did like the idea they were going for but the actual cards were over-tuned. I had the same feeling from the Partners when they first came out. Both Companion and Partners were all just 'good stuff' creatures that should have been more focused in order to make them play differently, later Partners are so much better because they have an actual identity.
The "companion zone" doesn't exist, except as a UI convenience on Magic Online. The rules of Commander did have to change when Ikoria released, but only to relax the arbitrary "no wishes" rule so not to prevent companions from working as they would in any other format without a sideboard (where literally every card you own is considered "outside the game"). The Rules Committee later had to update the rule again when Dungeons got released, now reading as the even more arbitrary "no bringing in cards from outside the game (edit: unless those cards bring themselves into the game) (edit 2: or those cards have a card type that can't start the game in your library)".
Just remove the companion zone from all formats. Problem solved. The fraction of the community that use the mechanic can generally still run the card in the main deck, they just won't have that extra card hovering outside the game.
it was made (WAY in advance ironically) for Doctor who Universes Beyond. In anything else, indeed they are a disaster. Why would they invent them BEFORE doctor who?? Only Doctor Who makes sense with them !
Unless you just so happen to be a combo deck running a companion I don’t think any deck would really care about exiling a few random cards in exchange for a free card
Correction: Yu-Gi-Oh never lost its identity, if we really use your logic then Yu-Gi-Oh lost its identity the first time jaden made a contact fusion. Just doesnt make sense.
Okay hear me out. 1) Add more companions, 2) allow for you to have more than 1 companions but all deck building restrictions apply, 3) to add a companion to your hand it cost 3 mana but you also draw a card, and 4) companions return back to companion zone and increase in cost to add back to hand by 1 for every time they return
Companion is overhated imo If you started with one less card in hand, and a few of the stronger ones were tuned down a little bit, they would’ve been totally fine. (There was no reason for Lurrus to be an every turn effect when it would’ve still been good if it was only the turn it entered.)
As someone who Loves commander, and Only plays commander: Wizards need to stop putting commander products in non-commander stuff. And this attempt to turn non-commander formats Into commander was a Godawful idea. If people want to play commander, they'll play commander. Also, regarding Companions and Commander: Lutri should have just been banned as a companion. The refusal to gave situational bans was a terrible idea, and continues to be so.
Wizard does this because they think that if most people only play commander, they need to make the other formats a little more like commander to attract the commander playerbase to them
@@juanlopesss Which is profoundly stupid. It's like if I went to a steakhouse and they covered my order in coleslaw, to try and encourage vegetarians to eat there.
@@calemr comparing commander to vegetals, the rest of Magic to meat and commander-only players to vegetarians is practically saying that commander-only players are ideologically against what constitutes normal Magic, wich is not the case. Anyway, if they see their game is losing attraction of course they will try some new ideas to spice things up and attract more people, and note aside, a lot of new inventions sounded like stupid ideas on paper but actually worked.
What’s even dumber is the hate piece for them became the cornerstone for the stacks deck in the format and I hate playing against stacks, especially if you play Voltron
I love commander but Magic as a whole is not Commander. Just like it's not Archenemy, Planechase or other different style of play. WotC see that Commander is the more popular format and tried to bring it into normal magic without thinking too much in the implications of it and balancing of said cards. And I agree this could probably be resolved by having more Companions in general but like said in the video that then becomes another game and not Magic.
If Kaheera also had the requirement of having, let's say, 15 creatures in your deck she could have been the only acceptable companion before the errata - just by being so low impact and so restrictive that you would need to really think if you want that free card in your opening hand. So yeah, companions either need to be really weak (and as much as I like Kaheera also boring) or they will be broken. There is no healthy middle ground here. And the worst thing is, playtesters said as much. But companions were printed anyways.
The errata was so insane. Imagine if Lightning Bolt cost 4 mana or Thoughtsieze cost 4 mana. They'd be unplayable. Even with the errata companions are still chugging along. I'm not sure how you fix the mechanic. You can't really increase their cost further because it makes them unplayable. You could make them a fusion of Force cards and Learn, where you can exile a nonland card from your hand and add that card to your hand from your sideboard. You get rid of the card advantage and don't allow a free discard for dredge decks. I'd also make them a lot more basic. Make them spells on sticks like the new Serum Visionary. Red gets damage, black gets removal, etc. Overcost them if you have to. Make them have several colored pips so you can't splash them. That's my reckoning, anyhow.
@@alexkaplan6581 It's a horrible mechanic that is a genuine and utter complete failure from top to bottom. I think there's a way to salvage it, but at the end of the day that would totally erase the original identity of Companion. Because you need to fundamentally change it. It's like putting together a broken vase. You're never truly going to have the original again and it's just better to get a new one of the same make.
It's not quite the same as having Bolt cost 4 mana. A better analogue would be always starting the game with a 3-mana tutor spell that can only tutor this specific creature. Being able to generate a Lightning Bolt into your hand at will for 3 mana would still be strong, let alone being able to do so for a card like Lurrus which can have a huge impact on the game by letting you recast permanents from your graveyard.
This comparison is not really the same thing… I mean, a 6 mana lurrus would be far worse than lurrus with the 3 mana to put in hand mechanic… And I think a lightning bolt for 4 that could be played once from outside the game would be played in every red deck ever
@@NomicFin Of course it's not quite the same. Here, I'll reduce it to a lightning bolt that costs 2 mana more, aka Open Fire. A 3 mana lightning bolt is unplayable in every format. Companion now costs 3 more mana to use, Lurrus is still viable everywhere. My point isn't to make a 1-to-1 analogue. Rather, it is to stress the point that under normal circumstances adding mana to the same card instantly makes it less playable. I claimed that "Even with the errata companions are still chugging along." Which is to show just how strong the companion mechanic is. Of course generating a lightning bolt in your hand for 3 mana is strong. Who would say it isn't, other than wotc? 3 Mana stapled onto the companion mechanic did very little to stop its viability. I am making my point that companion is such a broken mechanic, by taking a normally powerful card and making it worthless. Showing that companion is such a resilient ability that adding additional mana to its cost did very little to stop its viability. I don't need to make a perfect analogy to showcase that.
Printing more companions is NOT a solution. There was a period where we were playing a lot of paper standard 1v1 brawl at my LGS. The issue we quickly discovered with that format, due to it being 1v1, is that there were like only 3-4 commanders anyone played. Even the occasional decklist posted online only used those commanders. Which is crazy, because thanks to the commander format, WotC now prints like 100 legends in each standard set. Doesn't matter. All 1v1 formats are competitive by nature and so everyone is going to build around a meta of the best commanders. Printing tons of companions will just lead to a bunch of unplayed companions and the few best defining the meta. It will only further homogenize the game.
I'd like it if there were companions with very specific requirements. Like a Snow Companion that needs 20 non-land Snow permeants in the deck, or a Changeling Companion that needs a deck with at least 10 creatures with changeling in it.
hmmm... this got me thinking... what if there was a companion format. Ban or restrict them everywhere else, but allow a format which specifically uses companions.
Yeah, that could be cool. But that format is basically already commander, so wizards would have to make it reasonably different from commander for it to work
The restrictions should not have been if you could have access to it , they should have been on how you summoned it. To explain it in YUGIOH terms, imagine if Knightmare/Generic Link monsters were the only extra deck cards that existed. If they had done something like requiring a tuner or poly equivalent, i think it would have gone better.
What if companions forced you to meet a certain requirement in order to cast them? For example you could have a companion with a barren glory like effect that could only be cast if you control no permanents and have no cards in your hand. Or a companion that can only be played on your fourth turn if you didn’t cast any spells on your first three turns. Just an idea of how companions could come back without making them broken
Yo, your content is FANTASTIC. One tiny bit of feedback - the way our brains work, reading and listening don't happen at the same time. Your verbal script? Fantastic. Your written asides? Really funny. Doing both at the same time? It's a very frictive experience. Having the textual asides during pauses in speaking is one way this works. It's a comment on the internet, treat it as the two cents it is (though fwiw this came from my time in education so it's not just "I read it on a Reddit Post 5 years ago"). Appreciate your stuff, happy to give algorithmic contributions.
I like Companions on a conceptual level but am willing to admit that they are a problem for the existing game. Kinda like the idea of Companions having their own little format as a place to run wild in as a sort of pseudo-Commander or Brawl Style. Call it Pet Park Format or something like that. 😂
And yet here I am, Playing a friends forever commander deck, but before the game starts, revealing Lurrus and my attraction deck, thus having 13 cards that start outside of my deck for some reason or another.
Magic would be so much better with... say a 15 card companion side deck that had casting restrictions... that being said, this set had my favorite bad mechanic mutate.
Something left out here is how sideswiped the majority of the compabions were by the shift in the mechanic's design. A lot of them *aren't* worth paying an extra 3 mana for.
The sad part about companions is that most of them were bad even before the Nerf. They were interesting to build around and I had a lot of fun with most of them.
Someone found a story where Rosewater tried to make this year's ago, and playtesters told him this mechanic would never work and to never suggest it again. He was told it make the games the exact same every time because of consistency. He refuses to learn.
Look I hate companion like everyone else but he's literally said multiple times he was the one who greenlit them going in the file and that it was a mistake.
Making companions be based on deckbuilding restrictions would always mean their power level would be impossible to balance between formats with wildly different sized card pools. The only way for them to have worked properly is if they worked like the old vanguard cards - by picking one, you get the specific card, but your starting life total and/or hand sized would be different. Any companion is good because it's an eighth card, but if picking it means you only draw five cards at the start of the game, that tradeoff would only be good if you ant what it does specifically.
On the subject of Coalition Victory (and biorhythm, etc.): Around the time of Judgement and Odyssey they made a marked effort to put "win the game" effects on your upkeep. They found that giving the other players a chance to draw a card, untap, and think the problem through was fun game design. That's why Test of Endurance and Battle of Wits were printed like that, and it's continued to today with things like Hellkite Tyrant or Revel in Riches. A problem occurs in multiplayer formats though. If you have to be prepared to play against 99% of cards ever printed and you're playing a mono-green deck, how do you deal with sorceries? You can remove enchantments and artifacts, your big creatures can fight creatures and planeswalkers. What do you do about sorceries? If it triggered on upkeep, you could at least try to remove lands or fight the 5 color commander or something. If coalition victory saw a lot of play you'd start seeing mono-green decks splash blue for negate. Or non-control players would work together to kill 5 color commanders on sight. It gets real unhealthy, real unfun, real fast.
Don't play MTG so maybe what I'm suggesting is dumb, but if the problem of Companions is that it guarantees you win the late game with no cost, why not, at the start of the game before mulligans, you reveal the Companion, then start with 1 fewer card in hand. This would guarantee that your starting hand always starts with a way to win the late game, but at the cost of early game. Lean into the "You can play Companions without altering your deck too much" by adding an extra cost that applies even if you never play the Companion in the entire game
Starting with one fewer card in hand doesn't stop Lurus from bringing your Black Lotus back every turn in Vintage. Edit: That idea doesn't weaken the powerful companions. It makes the weak companions worse.
While part of the problem is the added resource in having an extra card available, the other half of the equation is the extra consistency. Since decks are (usually) 60 cards, with ~20 lands, a Companion is a guarantee of not having a "dead" draw; of not drawing a lland or spell you don't need in the late game, because it's been in your sideboard the entire time and you've built your deck either with it in mind or just to have that free body.
@@LorkhanHomebrewer Exactly. Is the reason why Zirda was also powerful. Being able to generate infinite mana was always a thing with Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith. However you would need to draw either of them, draw the card that enables the infinite mana combo and also draw the payoff. Companion make so that if you deck cares for their abilities and works with them you don't need to worry about drawing it since you are always guaranteed to have it. You only need Grim monolith/Basalt Monolith and infinite mana payoff in your deck since you will always be sure to have and play the companion.
I really loved companions as a brewer. I understand all the very legitimate issues with them in high level play. I also just really liked things like Lurrus or the slime boi (cant remember the name atm) as creatures. Like, if Lurrus was exactly the same but didn't say "companion" I don't think it would need to be banned outside of vintage. If they were just normal creatures they would have been mostly fine. Trying to figure out what the best deck in standard for each companion was fun, as a build around.
I love the companion mechanic. I can't explain why. I have a commander deck with akiri, line-slinger and miara, thorn of the glade that uses Lurrus as a companion. Building around three commanders was a fun deck-building challenge,
i wish the "wish" cards (and cards like them, looking at you Karn) would let you interact with cards that were exiled. it would balance the game. However, with Nadu, Winged Wisdom existing now i don't think Magic the Gathering is going to thrive anymore. Every format will wish they're problem was "companion" after Nadu's been legal for a while.
To be honest I would love to see "commander only" companion cards. IMO Deck building restrictions can make fun and interesting ideas. Like f.e Henzie "Toolbox" Torre + Umori, the Collector creature only decks.
"Hey guys you know that mechanic that completely ruined Hearthstone a while ago by causing people to warp their decks for a seemingly-minor effect that turned out to be an insurmountable advantage because it was applied from the start of the game for no cost?" "I want that in our game."
They could make a Companion-ish mechanic where the cards have such cool art or lore that players would play them for that reason alone but even though they are absolutely free with zero deckbuilding requirements, they just sit on the battlefield doing absolutely nothing apart from waiting to be removed and gumming up any effect that requires their controller to control no creatures. Then you could put Lutri's art on such a card.
21:13 actually, Magic *is* doing that pivot but in a much subtler way, by having all strongest creatures in the meta be legendaries that can *also* be used as Commanders.
Companion is basically MtG's answer to the extra deck in Yu-Gi-Oh! And just like in the modern times, access to it is WAY too easy. And Lurrus. A card so busted, it makes Oko look very balanced in comparison. Even the worthless ones like Umori and Keruga can still see some play just by being so free to access. Iirc, the companion mechanic was rushed because of Wizards needing to work on the mutate ability. Printing more companions as much as Yu-Gi-Oh! with its extra deck monsters nowadays is the best solution. Because no matter how you slice it, companions are just MtG's answer to Yu-Gi-Oh!'s extra decks.
It's called 'design space' and if there's anything you can't tell a MTG designer it's that there's any possible design out there that they must never try if they haven't already tried it. No, someone else trying it for a different game doesn't count.
I wonder if they could make a devotion requirement, like "you need 30 of the same mana symbol to play this companion." Hard to say what would be fair about it but maybe having an 8th card in hand wouldn't matter if it was a 1GG 3/3 trample Dreadmaw Mini-sus.
I think that the real mistake was making the restrictions too weak and then making the companion actually reward you for playing that way. A better design would be that the companion has an effect that you want for your deck, and then an entirely different restriction that actually reduces how good your deck can be. Then it does become a decision wether to play a companion or not. One of the few that actually suffers this currently is jegantha. I got rid of it in my heroic deck because it was just too expensive. If I got to the point where I could cast it and I didn't have anything better to do, I had already lost that game.
So no one would have played them, rendering the mechanic pointless? This is a terrible argument for why it deserves to exist. It’s okay to just say it was a terrible, awful mechanic that never should have been printed.
Does it count as failed if the issue is that it was too overpowered? New mechanics are meant to be meta defining and have pressence..which this one clearly did.
@@fernandobanda5734 I'm not arguing against that but against the idea of it being a failure. I do understand the hate it got and I think it was deserved but I'd still think it's more of an overpowered mechanic that can't be maintained over a failure. It's similar with pendulums in Yu-Gi-Oh. They're simply not healthy and thus they get abandoned
eh, my suggestion to balance them is to count them as part of your opening hand. As soon as the game starts, you show off that you have the companion in hand, then ship them off to the "companion zone". And now you start off with a starting 6 instead of the 7 you would normally start with. Hell, if that's not enough, have the requirement that you need to discard a card when you show that you are using a companion and now your starting at a severe disadvantage, and it makes your mulligans more harrowing. Well, that's what I think anyway
Magic players lied a lot about how bad it was to have 61 vs. 60 cards in your deck. Yorion destroyed that notion. I was lead to believe adding 1 card was huge, but Yorion proved that adding 20 barely affected the deck at all.
The fact of the matter is that it was sandwiched between a lot of cards that benefitted from ETB effects, an already high consistency, and didn't require you to play White AND Blue, just White OR Blue. Standard at the time of Core 2021 (Last set before Rotation) involved the Ravnica sets, which means you could easily run 35 Mana, 25 Persistent Petitioners, and 20 cards of Goodstuff like counterspells, ramp, and control cards in order to get Yorion, Sky Nomad as a Companion. That's not to include other formats where ETB triggers and Flicker could easily be utilized.
The difference between just having an 80 card main which is a calculated choice and a yorion companion deck is that you always have access to yorion. Letting you build around a card that you always have and having an 8th card in your opener is just that good. Post Yorion going above minimum is again rather rare because most of the time you simply don't have to.
I think the solution to Companions is simple. Companion Mechanics are now just printed in Silver-Border sets. BOOM DONE FIXED THE PROBLEM. The issue is that balancing them for competitive play is next to impossible as either they are going to have an entire page worth of rules and restrictions on the book to ensure they are niche and can't be busted, or they are going to be so underwhelming that nobody wants to play them. So why not just lean into what the problem is? They are too powerful, so Companions are printed as Silver-Border cards for Un-Sets. Make a new Un-Set called "Un-Fortunate" where it prints a series of new companion cards with the intent behind them being they are wacky as fuck and powerful because of that. Hell, give them a side-effect like "If your opponent takes more than three minutes to play their turn, counter their next spell. If you take more than three minutes to play your turn, counter your next spell."
So I guess one of the fundamental differences is that cards outside the main deck that you have ready access to has *always* been a thing in Yugioh, it just took a little while for those cards to be good. In contrast, Companions were introduced into Magic way after what the game is was established and the cards were too good from the get-go.
Companion is the only mechanic that was so bad that the entire mechanic had to be errata’d, that has never been done before or since. Stuff like storm is definitely bad but companion is broken on a whole new level
You could honestly make companion work by just making a whole new format centered around companions and be able to print new ones as well. It would be like a non-singleton commander kinda
What i think is people don't want more companions printed because commanders actually balance the game in it's singleton format with the decks supposed to be built around the legendary creatures known as your commander
Commander is notoriously unbalanced. Multicolor cards are supposed to be more narrow and harder to use, but in Commander it expands your card pool by a lot. Nothing about color identity is even remotely balanced. A lot of cedh decks play two-color partner Commanders that they barely need because more colors is always better.
@@fernandobanda5734 Dude say what you want but it is literally more balanced than the other formats. Like the entire game itself is not balanced nor can ever be balanced since it was always meant to be a 1v1 type of game but people liked playing with their friends so it became a 4 player free for all for the most part which the game literally was never designed for so wizards had to shift the game to fit it
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena That doesn't mean it's balanced. It means people play for fun and use rule zero. If you see the opinions of people who play only with strangers (where rule zero and matching power level is impractical) you'll see a lot of complaints. If you see cedh, you'll see a lot of dumb stuff that the committee fails to address. It's cool that the community managed to make something out of it and made it something so big. But having to dance around stuff is the opposite of it being balanced. If you give the commander rules the smallest bit of scrutiny, everything falls apart.
@@fernandobanda5734 Dude it's more balanced than the other fucking formats. Face it the game is a unbalanced mess from the get go with commander being the most balanced format and cedh is even more balanced as you don't even know which of the 3 other people are going to counter spell your shit as everyone has a counter spell even colorless. The more you actually play the game how it is intended to be played like actually trying to win instead of fucking around like the casuals of commander the more balanced the game looks For the filthy casuals i say get fucking good and don't just rage quit just because you are playing against something that you do not like. Rule 0 is shit and should have never existed make a actual fucking ban list RC as everyone uses the fucking sign post as a actual in the first place and not as a fucking suggestion on what strategies to avoid
@fernandobanda5734 commander is an unbalanced format because the card pool. When your card pool is this deep having more colors is almost always better. What i hope the original comment meant was that commander balances around having a commander better than 60 card does companion. Color identity 99 card singleton and everyone having access to that 8th card makes commander more balanced than companion which isn't saying much
If companions worked like the doctor who companions in commander and only used in commander they would work well adding a stipulations to the deck but adding it's colour identity to the deck.
I would love to see deckbuilding restrictions on less broken cards. These sorts of limitations can be really interesting for deckbuilding akin to Sekka's Light and Time-Tearing Morganite in Yugioh. Cards that when activated lock you in to that particular card type or something like That Grass Looks Greener that gives you a big advantage for playing a less consistent deck
I haven't played Magic in years... But every time I watch one of these videos, it boggles my mind how little WotC seems to understand how their own game works... Or how little time they spend play-testing anything.
Sometimes you want to push something or trying something new and inventive, you gotta do that to keep things fresh in a card game, sometimes it just doesn’t work out
They should take the unprecedented step of banning all companions in all formats with no conditions. Flat out deleted from the game. Then issue an apology for trying to cash-grab commander players into other formats by warping literally all of magic around "command..ion?" because WE SAW YOU DO IT and it was DISGUSTINGLY greedy, short-sighted, and we all hate them and we kinda all hate you. I for one have not purchased *any* magic product since they were printed, and I don't plan to until they are un-printed and WotC admits the real reason they did this in the first place. I simply proxy cards for commander or play on cockatrice.
Yes but those cards weren’t banned for power level reasons. They were banned because of things like taking too much tournament time, requiring dexterity like chaos orb, or just flat out gambling and racist depictions on the art. Lurrus was the only one banned because it was too powerful, and restricting it wouldn’t do anything
I would not mind seeing Companion revisited. There are a few notes on experimenting here. First limit it to Commander for the first revisit. Standard and the other game modes don't want to see it for a while and that is fine. Have one of the requirements be having a commander. Second, revisit the Lieutenant cycle. That would make the Lieutenants more thematic and reliable, but prevent some of the more insane effects from popping up. Third, for the first run, color restrictions will be a must. This is a test run, limiting them to mono color or colorless is safer than letting them slot in to any deck. If it goes poorly, then 5 or 6 catds get banned and most player doesn't even notice.
Commander cards are vintage and legacy legal. Unless they do the unfinity sticker thing with these commander companion cards it wouldn't fix anything unless the restrictions were such that they wouldn't see play
@@jmanwild87 Not familiar with the lieutenant cycle? Lieutenant is a keyword that only has effect when your commander is on the field. Originally from Commander 2014.
@gmradio2436 it still wouldn't solve the issue with companion. Companion never was an issue in commander outside of lutri and experimenting with it more feels like we might just end up with another Original Partner shenaniganry
@@jmanwild87 The goal is not to fix Companion, but to experiment with card design. Testing in Commander is safer than releasing for the general card pool. Using more restricted keywords also helps lower the chances of run away effects.
I'm normally very interested in these videos, but this one in particular has blown my mind. The analysis of how to make companions work by making more was excellent. The minds behind this channel have some impeccable game design analysis.
I'm in the small minority that think they should print more companions without deck building restrictions. At least 2 mono colored of each color. 2 tri colored of each combo. And 2 more dual colored of each combo. Give people options! It's a great way of bringing one of the best aspects of commander to a format that isn't 100 cards singleton hehe
Soooo Ironic to hear a YGO player talk about homogenization... considering All decks in YGO play the essentially the same strategy 😂😂😂 ... MTG has way more depth (because is not the same as complexity) to it thanks to its mechanics and design freedom they provide in the form of cost payment, something that (outside of the normal summon) does NOT exist in YGO
So is this what happens when you give Magic players access to an "Extra Deck"?
Yeah. Kinda. Yu-Gi-Oh has similar issues although less severe, and only because it had over 20 years to figure out, and is still way too prone to become broken due to extra deck, specially with Links.
Yes. Yu-Gi-Oh! Is much worse off. Some decks just enable the extra deck and instantly lose if they can't play from it.
@@gmradio2436 I wouldn't say that's worse, it's just getting locked out of a gameplan. That's mostly due to komoney forgetting to make the main deck have a payoff, so the game fell into generic extra deck monster spam. Which in it of itself isnt exactly bad since it allows for easy side deck building and flexibility is yugioh's main thing, but most of the extra deck monsters are so generic that _every_ deck can effectively run them, not just fire decks getting or water decks getting a good, unique card to them for example
@@ashemabahumat4173 No, Yu-Gi-Oh! Is much worse off with its reliance on the extra deck than Magic. The community just adapted to it. Before snap replying, this is a comparison to Magic, not saying Yu-Gi-Oh! Is bad. It is Very Rare for a Magic deck to not have a win con in the Main deck. The Inverse is true in Yu-Gi-Oh! With the win con normally living in the extra deck.
@@N12015 yeah the game constantly gets broken by ed monsters, largely just for having too strong of an effect for how easy they are to summon. Its also just considered such an integral component to the game that every deck is designed with it in mind at this point. Even decks like rescue ace without ed monsters themselves still need to use generic options to win.
No joke, when i first started parsing these, I honestly thought _stacking_ them was possible so long as you could still meet the requirements, with only the likes of Gyruda+Obosh or Keruga+Lurrus being impossible. I can't even imagine the terrors of *multiple* companions at once.
Saying this is a "failed" design is like saying that Black Lotus is "kinda good" this is THE disaster mechanic
Dredge is up there.
@gmradio2436 Agreed, but Dredge didn't require an errata for the entire mechanic for power level reasons
nah it was made for Doctor who Universes Beyond.
In anything else, indeed they are a disaster.
Only Doctor Who makes sense with them !
@@througtonsheirs_doctorwhol5914that wasnt the same mechanic. It was more akin to "partner with"
@@zakbrooks7354 "Doctor's Companion", indeed, it was not "companion" on those cards!
Yorion, "Especially in older formats"
People were playing 80 card decks IN STANDARD.
Bit of a (maybe) controversial take here, but I think that since they changed the companion rules, the actual mechanic is more or less fine at this point. The main problem is WotC did a hilariously shit job actually *balancing* the ten they printed. The only way the companion mechanic can work and be remotely balanced is if the companion restrictions get harder and harder to meet the more powerful the companion is on the battlefield.
By literally *any* reasonable design framework, Lutri and Umori should have been the most powerful companions hands down. If they would have switched the power levels of Lutri and Umori with Lurrus and Yorion, i don't think the mechanic, especially post-errata would be as strongly disliked by so many people.
this... i dont think compains were a bad idea" i think they should havce just been weaker.. cards like kaheera were fine. cards like lurrus would see 4 of in the mainboard even without companion printed on them... thats the main issue.
also.. i find the idea that " they fundamentally changed magic in a way it could never recover from" is BS.. planeswalkers did that more than companions did.
I love the concept of the Companion Mechanic, but I don't argue about why it's hated. Their existence is restrictive to making your deck fit the requirement, plus the effects are more brutal. This could have led to hatred on the levels of like Yu-Gi-Oh with Mystic Mine.
It also had to do with forcing the few people who don't play commander, to play commander in 40/60 card formats.
@@1killer911commander = 🤮
Hearthstone was shaken by Baku and Genn two years prior but wotc did not heed the cautionary tale
Not directly comparable. Companions are closer to Yu-Gi-Oh!'s extra deck. Glenn and Baku are vanillas that enables a buff for meeting a challenge.
@@gmradio2436 Definetly comparable. Even if the cards are vanilla , they are fairly deck building clause that give you a boost without having to draw the card in question. Extra deck serves more as a toolbox and a way to access your wincons
@@thonk5262 Is English a dead language?
No, Baku is not the same as the cat. Baku provides constant buff from turn zero, where the cat is closer to the gen 1 deck build cards. Specifically that priest one that set your power cost to zero. It must hit the field to trigger the effect. Being available from trun one is closer to the quest mechanics.
@@thonk5262Genn and Baku do give you the boost without drawing them, but you don’t even need to play them either. Companions insist that you have to spend the mana to get them out before you start getting any of the benefits. The magic equivalent of an upgraded Hero Power would be like starting the game with an Isochron Scepter already out with a Krenko’s Command or Lava Spike already attached to it.
Hey bad news!!!!
Your potential solution of printing tons of companions to give you options reminds me of Flesh and Blood, specifically equipment. Each hero can choose four armour pieces and one or two weapons which are on the board from the beginning of the game. You always have access to their effects, which can be extremely powerful. It's balanced by giving most heroes a variety of options, so the opportunity cost of forgoing one powerful piece for another is often meaningful.
This is also a great example of how it warps the game. Every impactful equipment piece dramatically informs how the deck is played and centralizes your strategy around it. Even equipment with abilities that seem marginal at a glance can end up exceptionally powerful simply by virtue of being accessible at any time. Fyendal's Spring Tunic conpletely changes how tons of decks evaluate the mana costs of cards, since occasionally getting an extra mana for free is just that strong. I could go on, but it largely works in FaB because the entire game is built around equipment from the outset.
So I think the solution for Magic is to have a separate companion-informed fornat where companions can run wild, dramatically influencing the decks around them and allow their game-warping presence to shine. Maybe make it a multiplayer singleton format to emphasize how these designs try to be casual and fun. Name it something that showcases the companion as your partner and the figurehead of the deck, like General, or Lieutenant, or something.
The biggest issue with companion is that some of the conditions were not actual opportunity costs. Lurrus could had been good but not broken if it said "all spells have converted mana cost 2 or less" instead of permanents. Zirda could had been changed to require all cards in your deck to be permanents instead of each permanent having an activated ability.
True
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I like companions, I was aiming to build at least one deck with each companion - mostly pioneer decks.
Lurrus is banned pretty much everywhere.
One third of the companions I have never seen in play anywhere: Lutri, Omori and Zirda.
Kaheera, Obosh and Jegantha are just 1 extra card in decks where it doesn't matter (in Kaheera Cuntrol-Decks all the other 60 cards are much more of a pain, and Aggro decks with Obosh and Jegantha are usually running on empty before they can play their companions)
Admittedly Gyruda, Keruga and Yorion aren't fun to play against; Gyruda is just a Spark Double Combo Deck in 100% of the times, while Keruga and Yorion are huge valueplays. And nowadays Keruga Decks are also just Discover combodecks... they never play Keruga though, it's just the implication that you're up against a boring combodeck that makes this miserable, not the companion. In fact the companion often warns you about the deck your opponent is playing!
I dont see much issues with Companions, they pretty much spoil your whole tactic to the opponent and are often too slow and clunky, I for one would love to see more.
Companions are a neat idea, they’re just mechanically one of the worst mechanics ever in the game, especially pre-erata.
The solution is simple: make companion restricted to singleton formats. Print a series of new companions with the specific companion restriction that Lutri had, and then also make them count as part of the total number of cards in your deck, like how the partner mechanic works, but not as powerful. Next thing you do is just make them not so powerful. Maybe give them effects that can only be used once per turn, or just really underpowered or basic utility abilities. The problem with these cards was less the fact that players could have access to them and moreso how busted their abilities were. If the abilities werent so busted, there wouldnt have been as much of an issue outside of commander-ifying other formats.
Honestly, love companions in limited.
But in constructed formats, well.... *YEAH.*
I honestly liked Companions... but I've also been really wanting the Vanguard format to finally return. Sooo that might be part of it :P
Well, companions are fun and kind of fair in draft formats :)
This is probably why they got printed. Most of the designers only play draft.
Companion should never have been in Standard. It should have only been in a supplement set that wouldn't be allowed in competitive formats. With it being set in something like that would have made it a lot more restrictive and would only cause problems at casual tables.
I will say that I did like the idea they were going for but the actual cards were over-tuned. I had the same feeling from the Partners when they first came out. Both Companion and Partners were all just 'good stuff' creatures that should have been more focused in order to make them play differently, later Partners are so much better because they have an actual identity.
When I run into these on Arena still, I usually just concede and get a new match.
Been loving Gyruda as my companion for my commander deck. (He's the real commander.)
The "companion zone" doesn't exist, except as a UI convenience on Magic Online. The rules of Commander did have to change when Ikoria released, but only to relax the arbitrary "no wishes" rule so not to prevent companions from working as they would in any other format without a sideboard (where literally every card you own is considered "outside the game"). The Rules Committee later had to update the rule again when Dungeons got released, now reading as the even more arbitrary "no bringing in cards from outside the game (edit: unless those cards bring themselves into the game) (edit 2: or those cards have a card type that can't start the game in your library)".
Just remove the companion zone from all formats. Problem solved.
The fraction of the community that use the mechanic can generally still run the card in the main deck, they just won't have that extra card hovering outside the game.
(Failed) aka (Too Good for Magic)
so in your mind Failed means not banned in every format & or unplayable.
it was made (WAY in advance ironically) for Doctor who Universes Beyond.
In anything else, indeed they are a disaster. Why would they invent them BEFORE doctor who??
Only Doctor Who makes sense with them !
A disgusting crime.
Banishing facedown cards from the top of your deck alongside the regular mana cost may just make them expensive enough
Unless you just so happen to be a combo deck running a companion I don’t think any deck would really care about exiling a few random cards in exchange for a free card
Exiling cards from your deck means absolutely nothing.
Commander is the best format smh my head. Why can’t we just play commander in 60 card? What could go wrong… right?
and 4 copies of each card - 60 card commander is just Brawl
@@werbearjackbrawl is 100 card too lol
Correction: Yu-Gi-Oh never lost its identity, if we really use your logic then Yu-Gi-Oh lost its identity the first time jaden made a contact fusion. Just doesnt make sense.
Okay hear me out. 1) Add more companions, 2) allow for you to have more than 1 companions but all deck building restrictions apply, 3) to add a companion to your hand it cost 3 mana but you also draw a card, and 4) companions return back to companion zone and increase in cost to add back to hand by 1 for every time they return
Companion is overhated imo
If you started with one less card in hand, and a few of the stronger ones were tuned down a little bit, they would’ve been totally fine. (There was no reason for Lurrus to be an every turn effect when it would’ve still been good if it was only the turn it entered.)
Unfortunately that’s not how they worked so the hate was deserved.
As someone who Loves commander, and Only plays commander: Wizards need to stop putting commander products in non-commander stuff.
And this attempt to turn non-commander formats Into commander was a Godawful idea.
If people want to play commander, they'll play commander.
Also, regarding Companions and Commander: Lutri should have just been banned as a companion. The refusal to gave situational bans was a terrible idea, and continues to be so.
Wizard does this because they think that if most people only play commander, they need to make the other formats a little more like commander to attract the commander playerbase to them
@@juanlopesss Which is profoundly stupid.
It's like if I went to a steakhouse and they covered my order in coleslaw, to try and encourage vegetarians to eat there.
@@calemr comparing commander to vegetals, the rest of Magic to meat and commander-only players to vegetarians is practically saying that commander-only players are ideologically against what constitutes normal Magic, wich is not the case.
Anyway, if they see their game is losing attraction of course they will try some new ideas to spice things up and attract more people, and note aside, a lot of new inventions sounded like stupid ideas on paper but actually worked.
What’s even dumber is the hate piece for them became the cornerstone for the stacks deck in the format and I hate playing against stacks, especially if you play Voltron
@@TheJcjonesacp Ah, Stax decks. Because the best way to win at magic is to be only one at the table allowed to play.
Yeah, I hate it too.
I love commander but Magic as a whole is not Commander. Just like it's not Archenemy, Planechase or other different style of play. WotC see that Commander is the more popular format and tried to bring it into normal magic without thinking too much in the implications of it and balancing of said cards. And I agree this could probably be resolved by having more Companions in general but like said in the video that then becomes another game and not Magic.
Honestly, companions would probably make for a pretty sick supplemental casual format
If Kaheera also had the requirement of having, let's say, 15 creatures in your deck she could have been the only acceptable companion before the errata - just by being so low impact and so restrictive that you would need to really think if you want that free card in your opening hand.
So yeah, companions either need to be really weak (and as much as I like Kaheera also boring) or they will be broken. There is no healthy middle ground here.
And the worst thing is, playtesters said as much. But companions were printed anyways.
That restriction doesn't work. The companion restrictions have to be exclusive, not inclusive, so the opponent can see if they've been broken.
The errata was so insane. Imagine if Lightning Bolt cost 4 mana or Thoughtsieze cost 4 mana. They'd be unplayable. Even with the errata companions are still chugging along. I'm not sure how you fix the mechanic. You can't really increase their cost further because it makes them unplayable. You could make them a fusion of Force cards and Learn, where you can exile a nonland card from your hand and add that card to your hand from your sideboard. You get rid of the card advantage and don't allow a free discard for dredge decks. I'd also make them a lot more basic. Make them spells on sticks like the new Serum Visionary. Red gets damage, black gets removal, etc. Overcost them if you have to. Make them have several colored pips so you can't splash them. That's my reckoning, anyhow.
By it's nature, I'm not sure if it's fixable. Maybe just ban them all, and never, ever print more lmao?
@@alexkaplan6581 It's a horrible mechanic that is a genuine and utter complete failure from top to bottom. I think there's a way to salvage it, but at the end of the day that would totally erase the original identity of Companion. Because you need to fundamentally change it. It's like putting together a broken vase. You're never truly going to have the original again and it's just better to get a new one of the same make.
It's not quite the same as having Bolt cost 4 mana. A better analogue would be always starting the game with a 3-mana tutor spell that can only tutor this specific creature. Being able to generate a Lightning Bolt into your hand at will for 3 mana would still be strong, let alone being able to do so for a card like Lurrus which can have a huge impact on the game by letting you recast permanents from your graveyard.
This comparison is not really the same thing… I mean, a 6 mana lurrus would be far worse than lurrus with the 3 mana to put in hand mechanic…
And I think a lightning bolt for 4 that could be played once from outside the game would be played in every red deck ever
@@NomicFin Of course it's not quite the same. Here, I'll reduce it to a lightning bolt that costs 2 mana more, aka Open Fire. A 3 mana lightning bolt is unplayable in every format. Companion now costs 3 more mana to use, Lurrus is still viable everywhere. My point isn't to make a 1-to-1 analogue. Rather, it is to stress the point that under normal circumstances adding mana to the same card instantly makes it less playable. I claimed that "Even with the errata companions are still chugging along." Which is to show just how strong the companion mechanic is. Of course generating a lightning bolt in your hand for 3 mana is strong. Who would say it isn't, other than wotc? 3 Mana stapled onto the companion mechanic did very little to stop its viability. I am making my point that companion is such a broken mechanic, by taking a normally powerful card and making it worthless. Showing that companion is such a resilient ability that adding additional mana to its cost did very little to stop its viability. I don't need to make a perfect analogy to showcase that.
Printing more companions is NOT a solution. There was a period where we were playing a lot of paper standard 1v1 brawl at my LGS. The issue we quickly discovered with that format, due to it being 1v1, is that there were like only 3-4 commanders anyone played. Even the occasional decklist posted online only used those commanders. Which is crazy, because thanks to the commander format, WotC now prints like 100 legends in each standard set. Doesn't matter. All 1v1 formats are competitive by nature and so everyone is going to build around a meta of the best commanders.
Printing tons of companions will just lead to a bunch of unplayed companions and the few best defining the meta. It will only further homogenize the game.
I'd like it if there were companions with very specific requirements. Like a Snow Companion that needs 20 non-land Snow permeants in the deck, or a Changeling Companion that needs a deck with at least 10 creatures with changeling in it.
That would be wayyyy better. Like super specific tribals.
hmmm... this got me thinking... what if there was a companion format. Ban or restrict them everywhere else, but allow a format which specifically uses companions.
Yeah, that could be cool. But that format is basically already commander, so wizards would have to make it reasonably different from commander for it to work
The restrictions should not have been if you could have access to it , they should have been on how you summoned it.
To explain it in YUGIOH terms, imagine if Knightmare/Generic Link monsters were the only extra deck cards that existed.
If they had done something like requiring a tuner or poly equivalent, i think it would have gone better.
What if companions forced you to meet a certain requirement in order to cast them? For example you could have a companion with a barren glory like effect that could only be cast if you control no permanents and have no cards in your hand. Or a companion that can only be played on your fourth turn if you didn’t cast any spells on your first three turns. Just an idea of how companions could come back without making them broken
Yo, your content is FANTASTIC. One tiny bit of feedback - the way our brains work, reading and listening don't happen at the same time.
Your verbal script? Fantastic. Your written asides? Really funny. Doing both at the same time? It's a very frictive experience.
Having the textual asides during pauses in speaking is one way this works.
It's a comment on the internet, treat it as the two cents it is (though fwiw this came from my time in education so it's not just "I read it on a Reddit Post 5 years ago").
Appreciate your stuff, happy to give algorithmic contributions.
Speak for yourself mate
I like Companions on a conceptual level but am willing to admit that they are a problem for the existing game. Kinda like the idea of Companions having their own little format as a place to run wild in as a sort of pseudo-Commander or Brawl Style. Call it Pet Park Format or something like that. 😂
And yet here I am, Playing a friends forever commander deck, but before the game starts, revealing Lurrus and my attraction deck, thus having 13 cards that start outside of my deck for some reason or another.
Magic would be so much better with... say a 15 card companion side deck that had casting restrictions... that being said, this set had my favorite bad mechanic mutate.
Something left out here is how sideswiped the majority of the compabions were by the shift in the mechanic's design. A lot of them *aren't* worth paying an extra 3 mana for.
The sad part about companions is that most of them were bad even before the Nerf.
They were interesting to build around and I had a lot of fun with most of them.
Mark Rosewater still refuses to be responsible for this L.
Someone found a story where Rosewater tried to make this year's ago, and playtesters told him this mechanic would never work and to never suggest it again.
He was told it make the games the exact same every time because of consistency. He refuses to learn.
Look I hate companion like everyone else but he's literally said multiple times he was the one who greenlit them going in the file and that it was a mistake.
Making companions be based on deckbuilding restrictions would always mean their power level would be impossible to balance between formats with wildly different sized card pools. The only way for them to have worked properly is if they worked like the old vanguard cards - by picking one, you get the specific card, but your starting life total and/or hand sized would be different. Any companion is good because it's an eighth card, but if picking it means you only draw five cards at the start of the game, that tradeoff would only be good if you ant what it does specifically.
On the subject of Coalition Victory (and biorhythm, etc.):
Around the time of Judgement and Odyssey they made a marked effort to put "win the game" effects on your upkeep. They found that giving the other players a chance to draw a card, untap, and think the problem through was fun game design. That's why Test of Endurance and Battle of Wits were printed like that, and it's continued to today with things like Hellkite Tyrant or Revel in Riches.
A problem occurs in multiplayer formats though. If you have to be prepared to play against 99% of cards ever printed and you're playing a mono-green deck, how do you deal with sorceries? You can remove enchantments and artifacts, your big creatures can fight creatures and planeswalkers. What do you do about sorceries? If it triggered on upkeep, you could at least try to remove lands or fight the 5 color commander or something.
If coalition victory saw a lot of play you'd start seeing mono-green decks splash blue for negate. Or non-control players would work together to kill 5 color commanders on sight. It gets real unhealthy, real unfun, real fast.
Don't play MTG so maybe what I'm suggesting is dumb, but if the problem of Companions is that it guarantees you win the late game with no cost, why not, at the start of the game before mulligans, you reveal the Companion, then start with 1 fewer card in hand. This would guarantee that your starting hand always starts with a way to win the late game, but at the cost of early game. Lean into the "You can play Companions without altering your deck too much" by adding an extra cost that applies even if you never play the Companion in the entire game
That would make them far too weak.
Starting with one fewer card in hand doesn't stop Lurus from bringing your Black Lotus back every turn in Vintage.
Edit:
That idea doesn't weaken the powerful companions. It makes the weak companions worse.
I dont think that would work, but glad to see people trying rather than just complaining.
While part of the problem is the added resource in having an extra card available, the other half of the equation is the extra consistency. Since decks are (usually) 60 cards, with ~20 lands, a Companion is a guarantee of not having a "dead" draw; of not drawing a lland or spell you don't need in the late game, because it's been in your sideboard the entire time and you've built your deck either with it in mind or just to have that free body.
@@LorkhanHomebrewer Exactly. Is the reason why Zirda was also powerful. Being able to generate infinite mana was always a thing with Grim Monolith and Basalt Monolith. However you would need to draw either of them, draw the card that enables the infinite mana combo and also draw the payoff. Companion make so that if you deck cares for their abilities and works with them you don't need to worry about drawing it since you are always guaranteed to have it. You only need Grim monolith/Basalt Monolith and infinite mana payoff in your deck since you will always be sure to have and play the companion.
Your conclusion is spot on. They are a fundamental shift in how the game is played.
I really loved companions as a brewer. I understand all the very legitimate issues with them in high level play. I also just really liked things like Lurrus or the slime boi (cant remember the name atm) as creatures. Like, if Lurrus was exactly the same but didn't say "companion" I don't think it would need to be banned outside of vintage. If they were just normal creatures they would have been mostly fine. Trying to figure out what the best deck in standard for each companion was fun, as a build around.
I love the companion mechanic. I can't explain why. I have a commander deck with akiri, line-slinger and miara, thorn of the glade that uses Lurrus as a companion. Building around three commanders was a fun deck-building challenge,
i wish the "wish" cards (and cards like them, looking at you Karn) would let you interact with cards that were exiled. it would balance the game. However, with Nadu, Winged Wisdom existing now i don't think Magic the Gathering is going to thrive anymore. Every format will wish they're problem was "companion" after Nadu's been legal for a while.
lovely keywords that do a lot. Cascade, storm, proliferate... omnubilate!
OMnUBiLATE is missing !!! (should be used in comedy "Un-" sets)
To be honest I would love to see "commander only" companion cards. IMO Deck building restrictions can make fun and interesting ideas. Like f.e Henzie "Toolbox" Torre + Umori, the Collector creature only decks.
"Hey guys you know that mechanic that completely ruined Hearthstone a while ago by causing people to warp their decks for a seemingly-minor effect that turned out to be an insurmountable advantage because it was applied from the start of the game for no cost?"
"I want that in our game."
Thank you for bringing up the rules change commander made for companions. It was a terrible decision by the RC.
I'd like to make a comparison of MTG's Mechanic of Companion is the same feeling of Yugioh's Pendulum
I like companions... ☹
They could make a Companion-ish mechanic where the cards have such cool art or lore that players would play them for that reason alone but even though they are absolutely free with zero deckbuilding requirements, they just sit on the battlefield doing absolutely nothing apart from waiting to be removed and gumming up any effect that requires their controller to control no creatures.
Then you could put Lutri's art on such a card.
21:13 actually, Magic *is* doing that pivot but in a much subtler way, by having all strongest creatures in the meta be legendaries that can *also* be used as Commanders.
I didn't even realize that Dranith Magistrate was a Companion hate peace. It didn't click until just now.
The solution is to just get rid of Companions. Stop suggesting making more cards that will break the game.
Companion is basically MtG's answer to the extra deck in Yu-Gi-Oh! And just like in the modern times, access to it is WAY too easy.
And Lurrus. A card so busted, it makes Oko look very balanced in comparison.
Even the worthless ones like Umori and Keruga can still see some play just by being so free to access.
Iirc, the companion mechanic was rushed because of Wizards needing to work on the mutate ability.
Printing more companions as much as Yu-Gi-Oh! with its extra deck monsters nowadays is the best solution.
Because no matter how you slice it, companions are just MtG's answer to Yu-Gi-Oh!'s extra decks.
It's called 'design space' and if there's anything you can't tell a MTG designer it's that there's any possible design out there that they must never try if they haven't already tried it. No, someone else trying it for a different game doesn't count.
I'm shocked Mark Rosewater didn't get fired for the design decisions in Theros Reborn, Throne of Eldraine, and Ikoria.
Now I am thinking about printing lots of cards that make Sweep a viable mechanic xD
Free Lutri!!
Anyone here just want to hear logs talk as background music?
I wonder if they could make a devotion requirement, like "you need 30 of the same mana symbol to play this companion." Hard to say what would be fair about it but maybe having an 8th card in hand wouldn't matter if it was a 1GG 3/3 trample Dreadmaw Mini-sus.
This would be just miserable to deck check, and your opponent would have to see your whole deck to see if you're cheating.
I think that the real mistake was making the restrictions too weak and then making the companion actually reward you for playing that way.
A better design would be that the companion has an effect that you want for your deck, and then an entirely different restriction that actually reduces how good your deck can be.
Then it does become a decision wether to play a companion or not. One of the few that actually suffers this currently is jegantha. I got rid of it in my heroic deck because it was just too expensive. If I got to the point where I could cast it and I didn't have anything better to do, I had already lost that game.
I think most players wouldn't have bothered to play them, staying something like too hard to get out or worse than other options.
So no one would have played them, rendering the mechanic pointless?
This is a terrible argument for why it deserves to exist. It’s okay to just say it was a terrible, awful mechanic that never should have been printed.
I love companions in commander they should bring them back and remove that stupid 3 mana to hand rule thier a really cool design space
They’re fine as is in commander
Does it count as failed if the issue is that it was too overpowered? New mechanics are meant to be meta defining and have pressence..which this one clearly did.
If they worsen the experience and need bans, yes.
@@fernandobanda5734 I'm not arguing against that but against the idea of it being a failure. I do understand the hate it got and I think it was deserved but I'd still think it's more of an overpowered mechanic that can't be maintained over a failure.
It's similar with pendulums in Yu-Gi-Oh. They're simply not healthy and thus they get abandoned
@@DrAlberts I'm saying an overpowered mechanic IS a failure because of the bad it causes. Failure doesn't just mean "weak".
@@fernandobanda5734 you call it failure wizards calls it ez money so.....idk man
eh, my suggestion to balance them is to count them as part of your opening hand. As soon as the game starts, you show off that you have the companion in hand, then ship them off to the "companion zone". And now you start off with a starting 6 instead of the 7 you would normally start with. Hell, if that's not enough, have the requirement that you need to discard a card when you show that you are using a companion and now your starting at a severe disadvantage, and it makes your mulligans more harrowing. Well, that's what I think anyway
The one card advantage is part of the problem and not the whole problem.
Discarding (as opposed to drawing less) is even more abusable.
@@fernandobanda5734 hmmm, exile then?
Anyway you can cover the vanguard card type
Was expecting this mechanic comnig XD
Magic players lied a lot about how bad it was to have 61 vs. 60 cards in your deck.
Yorion destroyed that notion. I was lead to believe adding 1 card was huge, but Yorion proved that adding 20 barely affected the deck at all.
The fact of the matter is that it was sandwiched between a lot of cards that benefitted from ETB effects, an already high consistency, and didn't require you to play White AND Blue, just White OR Blue.
Standard at the time of Core 2021 (Last set before Rotation) involved the Ravnica sets, which means you could easily run 35 Mana, 25 Persistent Petitioners, and 20 cards of Goodstuff like counterspells, ramp, and control cards in order to get Yorion, Sky Nomad as a Companion.
That's not to include other formats where ETB triggers and Flicker could easily be utilized.
The difference between just having an 80 card main which is a calculated choice and a yorion companion deck is that you always have access to yorion. Letting you build around a card that you always have and having an 8th card in your opener is just that good. Post Yorion going above minimum is again rather rare because most of the time you simply don't have to.
You ever seen anyone running 81 card Yorion?
I think the solution to Companions is simple. Companion Mechanics are now just printed in Silver-Border sets. BOOM DONE FIXED THE PROBLEM.
The issue is that balancing them for competitive play is next to impossible as either they are going to have an entire page worth of rules and restrictions on the book to ensure they are niche and can't be busted, or they are going to be so underwhelming that nobody wants to play them. So why not just lean into what the problem is? They are too powerful, so Companions are printed as Silver-Border cards for Un-Sets. Make a new Un-Set called "Un-Fortunate" where it prints a series of new companion cards with the intent behind them being they are wacky as fuck and powerful because of that. Hell, give them a side-effect like "If your opponent takes more than three minutes to play their turn, counter their next spell. If you take more than three minutes to play your turn, counter your next spell."
Cry babies
Just play the game
Free spells were too good. Who knew?
So I guess one of the fundamental differences is that cards outside the main deck that you have ready access to has *always* been a thing in Yugioh, it just took a little while for those cards to be good. In contrast, Companions were introduced into Magic way after what the game is was established and the cards were too good from the get-go.
I like how you ended this video. Companion COULD be interesting and fine, but it would be a COMPLETELY different game.
In what universe is this worse than Infect or Storm?
Companion is the only mechanic that was so bad that the entire mechanic had to be errata’d, that has never been done before or since. Stuff like storm is definitely bad but companion is broken on a whole new level
You could honestly make companion work by just making a whole new format centered around companions and be able to print new ones as well. It would be like a non-singleton commander kinda
What i think is people don't want more companions printed because commanders actually balance the game in it's singleton format with the decks supposed to be built around the legendary creatures known as your commander
Commander is notoriously unbalanced. Multicolor cards are supposed to be more narrow and harder to use, but in Commander it expands your card pool by a lot. Nothing about color identity is even remotely balanced. A lot of cedh decks play two-color partner Commanders that they barely need because more colors is always better.
@@fernandobanda5734 Dude say what you want but it is literally more balanced than the other formats. Like the entire game itself is not balanced nor can ever be balanced since it was always meant to be a 1v1 type of game but people liked playing with their friends so it became a 4 player free for all for the most part which the game literally was never designed for so wizards had to shift the game to fit it
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena That doesn't mean it's balanced. It means people play for fun and use rule zero. If you see the opinions of people who play only with strangers (where rule zero and matching power level is impractical) you'll see a lot of complaints. If you see cedh, you'll see a lot of dumb stuff that the committee fails to address.
It's cool that the community managed to make something out of it and made it something so big. But having to dance around stuff is the opposite of it being balanced. If you give the commander rules the smallest bit of scrutiny, everything falls apart.
@@fernandobanda5734 Dude it's more balanced than the other fucking formats. Face it the game is a unbalanced mess from the get go with commander being the most balanced format
and cedh is even more balanced as you don't even know which of the 3 other people are going to counter spell your shit as everyone has a counter spell even colorless. The more you actually play the game how it is intended to be played like actually trying to win instead of fucking around like the casuals of commander the more balanced the game looks
For the filthy casuals i say get fucking good and don't just rage quit just because you are playing against something that you do not like. Rule 0 is shit and should have never existed make a actual fucking ban list RC as everyone uses the fucking sign post as a actual in the first place and not as a fucking suggestion on what strategies to avoid
@fernandobanda5734 commander is an unbalanced format because the card pool. When your card pool is this deep having more colors is almost always better. What i hope the original comment meant was that commander balances around having a commander better than 60 card does companion. Color identity 99 card singleton and everyone having access to that 8th card makes commander more balanced than companion which isn't saying much
If companions worked like the doctor who companions in commander and only used in commander they would work well adding a stipulations to the deck but adding it's colour identity to the deck.
Idea for future video: In honor of the Pioneer RCQ season, top 10 most impactful cards in the Pioneer format
Amazing!!!!!🎉🎉🎉
I would love to see deckbuilding restrictions on less broken cards. These sorts of limitations can be really interesting for deckbuilding akin to Sekka's Light and Time-Tearing Morganite in Yugioh. Cards that when activated lock you in to that particular card type or something like That Grass Looks Greener that gives you a big advantage for playing a less consistent deck
There are too many decks that already do what most restrictions would ask for in Magic to be honest.
This channel is a gem. Very thorough and informative.
I would love to see a video covering the Conspiracy mechanic
I haven't played Magic in years... But every time I watch one of these videos, it boggles my mind how little WotC seems to understand how their own game works... Or how little time they spend play-testing anything.
Sometimes you want to push something or trying something new and inventive, you gotta do that to keep things fresh in a card game, sometimes it just doesn’t work out
They should try again
They should take the unprecedented step of banning all companions in all formats with no conditions. Flat out deleted from the game. Then issue an apology for trying to cash-grab commander players into other formats by warping literally all of magic around "command..ion?" because WE SAW YOU DO IT and it was DISGUSTINGLY greedy, short-sighted, and we all hate them and we kinda all hate you.
I for one have not purchased *any* magic product since they were printed, and I don't plan to until they are un-printed and WotC admits the real reason they did this in the first place. I simply proxy cards for commander or play on cockatrice.
6:00 there are cards that have been banned from vintage, such as shahrazad.
Yes but those cards weren’t banned for power level reasons. They were banned because of things like taking too much tournament time, requiring dexterity like chaos orb, or just flat out gambling and racist depictions on the art.
Lurrus was the only one banned because it was too powerful, and restricting it wouldn’t do anything
I would not mind seeing Companion revisited. There are a few notes on experimenting here.
First limit it to Commander for the first revisit. Standard and the other game modes don't want to see it for a while and that is fine. Have one of the requirements be having a commander.
Second, revisit the Lieutenant cycle. That would make the Lieutenants more thematic and reliable, but prevent some of the more insane effects from popping up.
Third, for the first run, color restrictions will be a must. This is a test run, limiting them to mono color or colorless is safer than letting them slot in to any deck.
If it goes poorly, then 5 or 6 catds get banned and most player doesn't even notice.
Commander cards are vintage and legacy legal. Unless they do the unfinity sticker thing with these commander companion cards it wouldn't fix anything unless the restrictions were such that they wouldn't see play
@@jmanwild87 Not familiar with the lieutenant cycle?
Lieutenant is a keyword that only has effect when your commander is on the field. Originally from Commander 2014.
@gmradio2436 it still wouldn't solve the issue with companion. Companion never was an issue in commander outside of lutri and experimenting with it more feels like we might just end up with another Original Partner shenaniganry
@@jmanwild87 The goal is not to fix Companion, but to experiment with card design. Testing in Commander is safer than releasing for the general card pool. Using more restricted keywords also helps lower the chances of run away effects.
@gmradio2436 if you can't fix the obviously broken design there's no point in experimentation.
I'm normally very interested in these videos, but this one in particular has blown my mind. The analysis of how to make companions work by making more was excellent. The minds behind this channel have some impeccable game design analysis.
More companions would still push the game towards Yu-Gi-Oh.
@@Bluecrimson217 That's literally what the video said and explained why it wasn't a good solution overall if it balanced them more.
I'm in the small minority that think they should print more companions without deck building restrictions.
At least 2 mono colored of each color. 2 tri colored of each combo. And 2 more dual colored of each combo. Give people options!
It's a great way of bringing one of the best aspects of commander to a format that isn't 100 cards singleton hehe
Soooo Ironic to hear a YGO player talk about homogenization... considering All decks in YGO play the essentially the same strategy 😂😂😂 ...
MTG has way more depth (because is not the same as complexity) to it thanks to its mechanics and design freedom they provide in the form of cost payment, something that (outside of the normal summon) does NOT exist in YGO