I’m from Irish decent. Went to Western Ireland where my family is from. Irish people on the West coast have their own old ways. They are loving caring people but if you steal hurt women or back them in a corner they’ll come out swinging. Good traits
My paternal family is from an island off the western coast of Ireland. When my daughter told an Irish of our origins he gasped and said, "that's like being from Appalachia, they still hear the banshee." I am 3rd generation American on that side of the family.
Great book: Albions Seed , great insight on the cultural characteristics of Scots, English and Irish who settled here. Fascinating read, you wont be able to put it down
Deborah, 15 years ago I would have said that Albion's Seed was my favorite book, but in writing my own books while living in Scotland, I found he made some major errors in stating basic historical facts. Beyond veracity, it is an entertaining read.
Great point, Kevin! Take a look at Black Hawk Down. The southern accent is well-represented. Incidentally, the names of Revolutionary War soldiers were disproportionately Irish, Scottish, and Welsh.
Patricia, when I was writing my first two books, I became familiar with the role that Pennsylvania played in creating the culture of the upper south, including central and southern Appalachia. Philadelphia was, along with Charleston, SC, a key port of entry for the Ulster-Scots.
Thank you and I did enjoy your video; however, I did have a bit of a problem with your reference to the term Celtic. Modern society seems to think of Irish and Scottish people as Celts and when you look back to the indigenous people of Scotland and Ireland they were not Celts. The Celts came from the mainland Western Europe and migrated to Ireland and Scotland by way of England. The indigenous peoples of the isles were Picts. The Celts were a mix of Gauls, and Germanic tribes dating back to Roman and earlier times and most likely originated in the Caucasus region. Modern DNA would seem to bear that fact out. Please feel free to disagree with me, to the best of my knowledge the Celts did make their way to the British Isles, just much later in time, sort of like the Vikings (also not indigenous).
@@patriciayohn6136 I'm impressed that you know that much about the various groups that called northwestern Europe their home. The use of the word Celtic, I will admit, is perhaps not completely accurate, but I think that I (three books) and other writers like Grady McWhiney use Celtic to refer populations that once spoke a Celtic language. Cornwall was also a land that has linkages to Cornish, which was a Brythonic language.
This is a very interesting topic and one my sister and I have often discussed. A very large number of my ancestors come from the appalachian south. I have family history in all of the states in that region. My family is known for violence. We call it our family temper. I have that temper and I have to really watch myself. When I sat down with my grandfather to write his history, he started by saying " someone in his family had been in every war the US had ever fought. " He was in the Battle of the Bulge in world war II. The family is full of Scot's border names. I have studied my family history for 50 years. The family is full of hard drinkers and violent people. Religion-- not so much.
Perhaps the family history of hard-drinking and violence is seen as a badge of honour for some people. You know, this is what our family Does. This is how we Are. It's Genetic, etc. I don't know. Maybe doing the 23andMe DNA tests including the medical part might lead to some answers? Its just a thought. I have a lot of Welsh and Irish DNA and a wee bit of Scottish. I think at least some of our attitude towards some people comes from the Celtic/Brythonic healthy dislike for the English. We don't do subjugation very well and Will rebel against what we see as a slight or injustice.
@@stephanieyee9784 When I am studying my family history or studying history of any kind I try to do it with an open mind, looking only at the facts with no emotions attached. My sister and I do not drink at all because we know our family is full of people who have or had serious drinking problems. The hot tempers and the actions that come with them are facts. Captain Kidd the Scottish pirate is my 7th great grandfather in my mom's family. His daughter married into one of my ulster Scots families. I actually don't like that fact but the records say what they say. Also in mom's family I find the name Elliott. That family were famous border criminals. In dad's family I find many border robber names as well. Does that tendency carry on in families? It seems to me as I study my family that possibly it does. Studying family history helps me understand myself.
As a Southerner, I think our whole region is infused with the idea that we must be willing to show some backbone and stand up for ourselves. Right now, I don't know how else to put it. God bless, and never be ashamed of who you come from. This country wouldn't even be here without the South.
I am a generational native Texan, as most native Texans we have a Scots Irish heritage. We are a quick tempered bunch with our familial American history being in TN and northern AL. My grandmother who reared me was born in 1884 she lived in absolutism. When she said of a guest, "I don't have any use for him" we never saw that man in our home again. We did not have the alcohol issue because my grandfather, a substantial land owner, did not allow alcohol on his property, not just in his home, on his property. There is a story of when grandfather confronted an unfortunate man on his property who had a pint of whiskey on him, grandfather beat him senseless. Often our old-family stories involve some one being beaten senseless. Collectively, our culture is a warrior race, the first ones to volunteer for war, fight valiantly, and to the end. Just for fun: Irish Alzheimer's: you forget everything but a grudge.
Look up Skidmore, MO and the case of Ken Rex McElroy. He 'mysteriously died' in full view of everyone in the town but no one saw 'anything'. The consensus was 'he needed killin'.
Some are saying alcohol causes violence, but that has not been my experience. I have been irresponsibly drunk numerous times in my life, but I have never felt violent. IMHO, alcohol just facilitates the already-present feelings of people to whom violence has always been a choice..
I think that people who blame alcohol or society for a groups' actions is reaching for low hanging fruit. They, unlike you, don't see that behaviors can have correlations without cause and effect. I appreciate your comments and think they are valid! Merry Christmas, Barry
@@BarryVann I am not sure I should be praised for relating a tale of irresponsible drunkenness, but I appreciate your comment all the same, and a Merry post-Christmas to you! :-)
Thete are two kinds if drunks - one kind gets violent and obstreporous the other gets sleepy. I have seen both. I'm any event a drunk is a pain in the ass!
@@lynettegreen6827 I disagree. It's not a binary thing. I get stimulated, I get more into music, I get more sociable, seldom more sleepy unless already tired. Certainly more inclined to comment on YT!
Many who fought in America's wars are southern and of Irish descent. Check out Black Hawk Down and note the number of southern accents and names. The American Revolutionary Army was greatly manned by Irish Protestants.
To this day there are areas deep in Appalachia where State Troopers will not go into alone. They understand that some of these people still live by their own self made laws. I had an interesting conversation in Grundy or Hurley, Virginia with a local State Trooper.
It comes from the Scottish Boarderlands where pastoral economics mean that people have to defend their flocks through violence. Some interesting research on this.
Kathy, you are right! We could also add that thievery was common place because one could skip justice by hiding among family and friends on the other side of the border. I've actually published some work on the place: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/abs/barry-aron-vann-in-search-of-ulsterscots-land-the-birth-and-geotheological-imaginings-of-a-transatlantic-people-16031703-columbia-university-of-south-carolina-press-2008-pp-vii252-3995-cloth/23905499DF52DDC4C0B9A9862F39355E
A very interesting channel! The concept of the "Clan and Boat's Crew"* helps to explain the difference between the Gael and the Anglo-Saxons. The Gaelic Clan was based on the land and the co-operation and tolerance to required to work it. When not under pressure, clan society lacked urgency. The Anglo-Saxon Boat's Crew were seafarers and pirates who survived the hazards of sea and war through discipline and prompt obedience; their reward and purpose was the equitable division of loot among the crew. Justice had to be swift and drastic or all might perish at sea or in battle. By 1600, the Irish clans disintegrated under the onslaught of the piratical English. The very land of Ireland was the pirate's loot, and the Gaelic political and judicial aristocracy were scattered throughout Europe, their clans at home prey to unresolvable violence and vendettas. Having wrecked the economy, social structure, and dispute resolution mechanisms of the clans, the Anglo-Saxons took great delight in mocking the "lawlessness" and "violence" of the Gael in our darkest ages, 1600 to 1921. Depressing stuff really, especially hearing about how long the worst of it lasted in America. *"The Light of the West" by Gen. Sir W. Butler, Methuen & Co., 1909.
Ciaran, I appreciate the Clan and Boat Crew analogy. The Angles were relatives of the later Danish Vikings, so seafaring was a deeply imbedded cultural trait.
That might be an oversimplication. There were Gaelic pirates too - such as Niall's father Dathi. And, more famously, Grace O'Malley, who apparently spent time in more locations in western Ireland than George Washington did in the US.
@@nothingbutmilk6576 The two whatabouts mentioned do not affect the "Clan and Boat's Crew social/political model. 1. Niall and his O'Neill clan, did raid the Roman province of Britain as a sideline to their land-based agricultural activities. However, they did not establish a lasting maritime component within their clan. When the Romans abandoned Britain in the 5th century, they left little worth looting, and so the clans saw no further reason to maintain their naval forces or develop maritime traditions. (No significant naval clashes occurred during the contemporary Gaelicisation of Western Scotland.) The Gaelic clan system had no naval component during the centuries of confrontation with the maritime peoples of northern Europe, the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, and the English. 2. The Tudor monarchy of 16th century England sponsored various Irish warlords such as the O'Malleys when it suited them. Negotiations with warlords are always tedious; those with Grace O'Malley were particularly so. (Like American sponsored warlords in Iraq or Afghanistan.) But the O'Malleys, for all their grandiloquent bluster and assertions of autonomy, could never maintain a naval force without English approval and subsidies. And once the Spanish Armada and the clans were defeated, the subsidies ceased and the O'Malleys became irrelevant. (And I've no idea what Washington has to do with any of this!)
@@ciarandoyle4349 Thanks I didn't know that Irish piracy sharply declined "after the Romans abandoned Britain" (the Irish history teacher for my semester abroad at UC-Galway left that out of his class). He did mention that Irish pirates routinely raided Wales and Cornwell during the Roman occupation and that this piracy was responsible for the Welsh/Cornish immigration to Brittany. My comment re Washington was a joke. Tourist traps in the US used to advertise "Washington slept here" to attract tourists. Villages in the west of Ireland do the same thing with Grace O'Malley - or least they did when I last visited Ireland in the 1980s. I hear that the west is a lot more posh and upscale these days.
Lynn, that's precisely where Sandy Gap is located. Of course, these days a lot of Floridians have bought out many of the locals. It's quite safe nowadays.
@@BarryVann Why do you and I say "nowadays" but most people don't? Is it a regional thing? You are giving me so many insights into my mother's family, it's amazing.
@@BarryVann I wished you'd have been here when we went to town and had to follow one of those fancy bus/R.V.'s and the max speed was 30. In the STRAIGHTS!
Now I gotta go and visit some places to see if the Blevins name is rooted up somewhere in Appalachian history. 👍🇺🇸 Thank you for sharing this channel 👍
I have an 86 year old friend whose husband was a marine in Korea and Vietnam. She wasn't as fearful for his safety in those places as she was when he served as a recruiter in Appalachia.
A recruiter would be looked down upon there. I'm a Nam vet and the guy would have to make a good show BUT would still have friends aplenty. Respect was and is still earned by natives who are a rare and endangered species. GBWYall
@@BarryVann sorry for this late reply. Chances are that I am DNA related to Flowers in NC. My ancestors came in through VA (a sea captain named John Flower) then NC, then down to south GA after the Revolution. Thanks for writing!
@@lewiemcneely9143 thanks for writing. My friend, who just turned 87, was raised in downtown Memphis, as was her Marine husband. So you can see the perspective she grew up with. God bless you and have a great day.
@@suzanneflowers2230 There was a James Flowers here for a while from Gawgah that had a son called Butch and daughter named Milrose. Don't know what part but around Wadley. They opened and ran a building supply here. The main man was J Harold Rowland. A preacher and a FINE guy with a daughter Cheryl and sons Hal and Ernie. Gilbert Peele and Thomas McKinney were some more. This is in Western North Carolina by the way of which I am a purebred hillbilly. Blessed to get back home from a grub run so YOU have a LARGE time as the Gawgah crowd allowed! GBWYou!
The video is correct that ethnicity has to be taken into consideration when considering homicide and crime rate rather than crude Marxist reductionism. However, as romantic as it is to atribute this to wild Celtic origins, it soon becomes obvious that one ethnic group inparticular in the US contributes disproportionately to crime statistics.
I don't think that the murders in our families were romantic. This is not a version of Scotland 2.0. Until declining birth rates started in 1964, our families did not know any other way to behave; they arrived in the backcountry with 17th century ideas, and through lack of contact with the outside world, they kept their old world ways. What's romantic about using an outhouse? I was born in a house with no running water and an outhouse. That's how the old timers relieved themselves. They handled their disputes the same way as their grandparents. Have you ever heard of the Irish troubles? Do you think they were romantic? I would go on, but I don't think it would make a difference. Best wishes!
@@BarryVann I agree with the 1964 marker. I worked with a young woman from east Texas who shared with me that until she moved to Dallas she did her laundry in a wash pot over a fire. The old ways died hard.
The history of the blood feud was common in Northern European cultures going back to early middle ages. Feuds in the Southern Colonies of North America could be traced back to the 17th and 18th centuries. During the Revolutionary War, many of the battles fought in South Carolina and other southern colonies were between feuding families.
@@BarryVann Thank you for your videos. My own family on my mother side came to Virginia in 1635. Her family names include Atkins, Hindman, Rumery, and Dupree which we learned was French Hugenot origin. The Atkins, owned the land that the Carter Plantation eventually was built on in 1710. My father side was in North Carolina, in the 18th Century and included Parker, and Bryson (from Texas) and ? Our history is somewhat sketchy on that side, but we do know, that the Parkers moved to Atlanta Georgia prior to the Civil War, before moving to Oklahoma and Texas.
@@coleparker Awesome information, Cole! In my video on atrocities in Southern Appalachia during the Civil War, I talk a great deal about Captain Goldman Bryson.
absolutely many chose to either be a tory or a whig based on the choices of people that had at one times them wheter real or percieved it led to a lot of killing barn and house burning on both sides.
Enjoy your videos and insights. My ancestors were from Graham county. There were Garlands, Welch, Sawyers etc. While doing family history there seemed to be quite a bit of violence and murder. I may be wrong but it seems like this escalated after the civil war. Wondered if P.T.S.D. had anything to do with it? Jill Sifford
@@baronvann1314 I lived on Hanging Dog and wished I was still there but can't be 2 places at once. Thanks for everything and those are some FINE people back in the hollers!
Am also a Graham. Our clan is Montrose. Our Graham ancestors had rather nefarious rolls in the deaths of William Wallace, Lord Darnley ( Mary Queen of Scots husband) and the downfall of Rob Roy MacGregor. We also invented Graham crackers! I've ever had s'mores!
Thanks for posting this. It explains a lot my ancestors from Cherokee and Clay count NC. Lots of scuffles and scrapes over the years. Some with family. Some with strangers. Many an ill temper raged especially when moonshine was involved. Lol Sad but true. Proud of that heritage though, and you had to be tough just to make it in those mountains. Doctors were few and far between, working the fields was hard work from sun up to sun down and big families meant loads of mouths to feed. It couldn't have been an easy life that's for sure. Freaks me out sometimes to hear my parents talking about lack of indoor plumbing as kids and that was in the 1960's. I think I would have been mean too without a toilet to flush. Just sayin' lol Great video!
Tonia, I'm related to the Rogers from southern Cherokee County. My third great grandmother was Martha Rogers who married Amariah Voyles. They are buried on the state line with Georgia. Thanks for watching! Merry Christmas! Barry
@@baronvann1314 I went and looked the connection up. Martha Rogers was my great, great, great aunt. If it's the same lady, I think the birth date was around 1841. I am not going to get too excited though because my daddy always said there were several sets of Rogers in Cherokee county, but I guess if you go back far enough there is a connection. Anyway, love your channel. We live in Maryland now, but have a house down there still. It's home. I love tracking as much info about our heritage as I can. I am huge Civil War buff too. Martha's brother was J.V. B Rogers a major with North Carolina 2nd Calvalry. Merry Christmas to you as well! Keep the videos coming!
@@baronvann1314 did someone say Rogers🙂 Some Rogers came to WNC from Tn after the Revolutionary war. Those traced back to Samuel Rogers from Ireland and Scotland.
Thank you! I just learned that one of my great uncles shot his brother in the head (in NC) back in the 1870s. I was horrified that one brother could do that to another. Hearing this video helps me understand it better, and feel a little better about my ancestors.
@@baronvann1314 Thank you for your response. I've learned that they were wild, they went on a crime spree up and down the east coast. I've read that there was a lot of wildness and crime after the Civil War.
Having lived in many areas of the US, thanks to Uncle Sam, I've seen this disparity in violence. As a result I understand inner city violence more than the hair trigger temper of some of the Scottish-Irish folks living in the Ozarks for generations. One insight my Native American grandmother offered is that "they don't get out much". As in living in a single area so long they missed out on experiencing different ways to live and cope. My ancestry is 25% Irish and those ancestors left clannishness behind them, even before the great potato famine and mass migration. It's sad that we lost all of our Irish culture but a certain clearheadedness was found.
More than likely they were Ulster/Scots not the indigenous Irish. They were from Northumbria maybe the lowland Scotland. They were the ones that came over before the potato famine. When the wool Industry collapsed in Ireland the colonizers left Northern Ireland for the Americas. These people had a protestant background not Catholic so they were not indigenous to Ireland.
I'm an 11th generation South Carolinian. DNA: England & Northwestern Europe 45%, Scotland 38%, Wales, 10%, Ireland 7%. We don't like intimidation, we don't let bullies have their way. We don't trust the government. We don't have the patience to wait on law enforcement to seek justice. Romans 12:19 Do not avenge yourselves is something we struggle with. The question is; is it possible for a culture to eventually be embedded into the DNA? Answering that question could be Politically Incorrect, even if scientifically proven. If any of you trolls want to fight me over my comments, I'm still here in SC! LOL!
Tim, there are some trolls hitting me on this and other topics, but I think you pose an interesting question. I think that gene types are passed on to the next generation, so what works well will be better represented in future generations. Thanks for inserting an interesting point to consider!
@@timsimmons7916 Hendersonville is a good solid hour from here or a little better. I used to haul from Vulcan there a lot and went to Pardee hospital some bvut now am exiled to the home/20 because of being a public nuisance.
I live just 15 minutes from Devil Anse Hatfields home. My wife is related to him on her grandmothers side. My family is from Germany Scotland on my mother’s side and England on dads side. We live in a WV border county with Kentucky.
The operative word in this video is "perceived" wrong doing. Alcohol involved. Nothing good can come after one has enbibed in excess. Nice video Barry really enjoyed the stories.
I daresay Mark Twain might have agreed with you. If you haven't read the chapter of Huckleberry Finn entitled "Why the Lynching Bee Failed" I recommend it. "The Mind of the South" by J.W. Cash also has some pertinent observations. My family's roots in Georgia go back to before the founding of the US. My parents came from the Appalachian section in the Northern part of the state. Consequently, I spent a good bit of my childhood visiting relatives up that way. I always had a sense that violence lay just below the surface.
Omg I was just talking about this. I’ve been reading about the feuds in Clay and Laurel county Kentucky that was done by different clans of my family. My family were kin fighting with each other. I’m curious if I’m related to these Johnson and Bakers clans. 😂😂😂
If the prevalence of Celtic people were the main cause for different rates of violent crime both Newfoundland and Cape Breton in Canada would be above the national average. However, this isn't the case.
John, thanks for that information. It's interesting. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the immigration of Highland Scots to Eastern Canada occur in 1815? That's a century after the start of the Anglo-Celtic people from Ulster began settling in southern Appalachia. These folks had a distinct history of being a buffer zone against Irish Catholics.
Oh shoot!. Just re-viewed your video. My late mother said her mother's cousin was the Cherokee County sheriff in the 1920s/30s. My mother's oldest cousin married a Baker, and one of their children (who lives in Boone) is a full-time sheriff's deputy. FWIW, he's a very nice man who's world view is a lot broader than cousins who stayed in the Mecklenburg/Gaffney areas. BTW, my maternal grandmother was a Gaffney. Whoo boy are you talking about my family!
My old Dad told me tales of when he was a young man in the early 1900s that left me scratching my head about how acceptable and common place they seemed to him. Yep, we're right over the line from Arkansas and located in the Ozarks. Both maternal and paternal lines started out in the Appalachians some 200 years ago. Of course if all I had to do was hang on to plow handles and look at a horses rump all day I might have a little trouble with violent retribution mysel.
Larry, thanks for chiming in the discussion. My two children were born within 40 miles of the Arkansas-Missouri border. Being from Tennessee, I was always impressed how much the culture seemed familiar and like home.
@@BarryVann we are just over the border in Northeastern Oklahoma. Hills are the same, people the same, except it was here that folks ran to when they got in big trouble in Arkansas and Missouri. Ever wonder where those border reevers of the Lowland Scots ever got to? It was here.
@@larryreese6146 yes, but when I worked at NEO A&M College in Miami, few people cared about it. By the way, their descendants can be found all the way back to Appalachia.
@@baronvann1314 yes. You can tell by the language usage, if you listen. I once heard or read that the Scots Irish influence was one of the major influences in the settlement of the U.S. They were a tough adaptable bunch of people. They landed in America late, hit the frontier from Appalachia and didn't stop until they reached the West Coast. They borrowed the rifle gun from the Germans, the log cabin from the Swedes, and everything else from the Native Americans. If you listen you can hear similarities in the speech patterns of the Atlantic Seaboard. Nobody inland speaks like them. Appalachia and the folks who came from there influenced the rest of America.
@@baronvann1314 Sir, since you are from Tennessee and familiar with the way people might think there, let me ask you a question. When I was growing up it seemed to me that exacting violent retribution was a far more acceptable sin than not standing on your own two independent feet or not being good at your word. That's not to say that should a good dependable fellow fall on hard times that you shouldn't give him every assistance that you can. Is that the main value system where you come from?
Hi, Van, welcome! I have been criticized for using the label "Celtic" by some folks. To clarify, the groups that I am referring to as Celtic came from regions in the 1600s and 1700s that were much more aware of their loss of liberty and cultural distinction in the old country than some do today. Still, a sizable proportion of the people continue to speak the old Celtic languages in Wales, Ireland, Brittany, and Scotland. Cornwall was the last place in England to see the death of a Celtic language. The language was called Cornish.
@@BarryVann There are what I call recreational scolds out there looking to give posters a hard time. I am NOT a purist, and know many opinions are close-run things, inevitably somewhat arbitrary. Speculation is fine, as long as we admit we don't know for sure. In fact, it's those who ARE sure who are shameless ideologs/frauds. I welcome new information and new "theories." Keep at it!
Thanks, Anthony! I appreciate the positive feedback. It's easy to tell if the author of a comment has ever been in those places, especially here in southern Appalachia or the Ozarks.
Allens, Hawkes, and others in NC and Virginia and the Hillsville courthouse. My great grandfather kept up some of the, Allens in the woods. then finally told them and go back to house in Hillsville.
Most Southern American whites and Southern Dixie culture has Ancestry from Celtic western England, Wales, Celtic highlands, and Ireland, Manx, Breton and Cornish. And as i said Celtic west England. And Anglo-Saxon East England and Anglo-Saxon Lowland Scotland. Southern America is of Anglo-Celtic cultural and ethnic derivation. American whites come from Britain Similar to how Anglo-Saxons in England come from Germany and Denmark or Netherlands. Etc.
We always had to defend ourselves against other selves - English and Romans but also against our ain’t kin folk - Clans. Due to the fact many Scots did not have much but what they had they wanted to keep and no one was going to take this from them. I guess we do have fiery tempers, I’m Scottish/Irish with auburn hair but hey I’m proud of who I am and where I’ve come from. Note: I do keep my temper under control. Loved this show - thanks x
I have nor forgotten that the British established Georgia for criminals. They did a similar function in Australia. Alas, I'm not talking about people in Georgia. The examples I used were in North Carolina and East Tennessee. Don't forget that
You for got to tell that ireland scotland and west england are ancients iberians peninsula celts know today by spain as well you don't mention the wild gueese irish that were part of the spanish inquisition and conquistadores but from all the celts the most blood tursty was the iberians peninsula celts from the front liners of hannibal the cartage to the 10 legion of julius caesar which was made of Iberian peninsula celts plus if you want to see the real deal of pure stock celts fighters you have read a ancient city in spain call Numantia it took the Romans 7 or 8 legions and 20 years to defeat 1500 hundred iberians celts and by the end the iberians peninsula celts burn the city and from the youngest to the older grab their sword and cut their own neck with a smile looking at the Romans soldiers real simple plus all that ancients blood is alive in the latins americas special in the mountains of Puerto Rico and cuba and others now they are back tattooing their bodies and faces like ancients times and bringing fear one more time to the whole world with crimes that spook nations plus virginia kentucky australia are the same blood brothers plus in every town every city in all nations and country a celt blood line doing life right now for killing in the whole world by scientist knowledge and don't worry about I'm 86 percent celt by my DNA test North West england and scotland 42 percent 31 percent Ireland and Basque people and north portugal North spain French and 12 percent Norway switzerland and 2 percent Puerto Rico native no african or hebrew or moors or oriental or nothing else and around 40 percent of my family is Red heads blonds brown hair blue green and brown eyes no black hair or black eyes here by having red hair genes I'm probably decendend from the sons of the ancients gods call giants in ancients civilizations one thing I can say we are happy people mountains people and simple people to somebody make us mad everything change to bloody tursty war like animal that knife will be out and in faster than pilling a egg is something with the celts and knife by natural laws real simple and we still hold the titles in the bloody arenas plus like I said the mountains simplesity and knifes and the love for the sound of water is a celtic thing and in north america is 50 millions wild gueese irish decendend amigo and mixing a mountain puerto rican with a irish females is building a killing machine from birth and believe me I know take care amigo
Theres been a change since i was growing up and the people arent quite as violent as i remember them in the 60`s and 70`s. But its there no matter what just under the surface.A good bar room brawler was a recognized man in his community whether you thought highly of him or not and there was a bit of a wild west tinge to it.
Don't know if you're acquainted with Horace Kephart's book, 'Our Southern Highlanders' I think it's call (but the author is right) That justice system of waylaying however. whoever and wherever was standard practice across the waters. And since many ancestors came from there, was adopted straight off. And he ended up having his home base in Bryson City, NC. Really enjoying your outlook on my homeland, the Blue Ridge. Thanks and GBWYou
Max, that's a good question. I spent much of my youth living in Detroit. It was considered to be a dangerous place in the 1960s. The folks in southern Appalachia are not the only group that sought justice outside of official channels. Those acts of violence take place within particular groups. Like the hill people of the South, those urban populations never had a tradition of relying on cops. Gangs in urban areas mark their territories and operate outside of official justice system.
There is an interesting book on this subject called Killings: Folk Justice in the Upper South by William Montell. My family is in it although he changes the names from Crabtree to Christie. They lived in TN at the TN/KY/VA borders. I know from family history that my great grandfather was killed over a pig.
Caught this one late, but I will comment that you are looking at the wrong demographic as a cause of the current murder rate. Since I live in the state where half of the Hatfield and McCoy feud took place, I'll start there. Looking at the race of those arrested for Murder in the State of Kentucky, 38% were black in a state were the proportion of the population is about 8%. The race of the victim is statistically the same as the perpetrator. Arkansas has statistics that show the same trend, 70% of those arrested for murder were black, and those murders occurred in about 15% of the states population. That same pattern happens in every state with a large urban black population. While Appalachia has the reputation for violence, you are safer there than in East St. Louis or South Chicago. I don't see any Appalachian community tolerating the levels of violence that you see in many inner city areas.
I’m from the same branch of the McCoy family that produced those involved in the famous feud. My something great grandfather was a brother to Sally McCoy and went west.
That sounds familiar to my neck of the woods. I lived in Detroit for my elementary school years. I seldom had a fight or need to defend myself. When I moved back to Tennessee at the age of 12, even girls whipped my butt for kicks and giggles. I had to learn how to fight pretty quickly.
Culture and genes are two different issues. It's interesting how folks in Britain can tell a person's region by the way he looks. I was living in Scotland and visited Northern Ireland for the first time in 2002. I was told by a Scotsman to be careful in Belfast because, he said, "you look like a Protestant."
Good for you, Rod. If you think about it, most cultures that are not mainstream in a population with laws, often revert to more primitive ways to seek justice. Barry
You should have your lungs looked at, your inhales sound ... idk, not right... like the spongy material inside your lungs is partially saturated with something like imagine soaking up oil with a dish sponge and ringing it out really good but some oil is still stuck to it all over... it sounds like your alveoli are in a similar condition. Could just be a quick passing illness, but if it persist, I'd say have the doc give a listen to them.
Grant, you are quite perceptive. A day after the video, I had a unit of blood drawn because of too many red blood cells. Could there be a connection since red blood carries oxygen?
@@baronvann1314 possibly, I'm not medically qualified, I just picked up on the sound and it seemed off and so since health is so important I figured I better say something in case nobody else noticed or wouldn't say anything trying to be polite. Best of luck, hope it all turns out to be nothing.
I'm not sure I agree with your thesis. In Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada most inhabitants are of Irish and British Isles extraction. Almost every man owns a rifle, as hunting is widely practised. Yet, the murder rate is extremely low. Newfies like to drink, socialize, and they are known as poachers (hunting and fishing out of season). Beyond that, they are law abiding, and known for their generosity toward others, anyone in need.
Mary, we are talking about two different populations of people. One is in Canada and the other in southern Appalachia. The people in southern Appalachia came from Ulster, which was a political mess for 500 years (The Troubles, Blood Sunday and all that). They came to Appalachia because of political persecution. They were used as a buffer zone against Catholics in Ireland and then Natives on the frontier. They had no trust of government or a legal system. Like gangs in large cities, they reverted to more primitive ways to exact justice. In the case of my people, they had a history of violence before they landed in America. It's not my thesis. Check out Grady McWhiney: Cracker Culture in the Old South; and David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed.
The Scots were always border people. They had to rely on family connections , not government because kings were always changing. Plus they always had to fight someone. Its probably their influence that won the revolutionary war
Those stories can be quite entertaining. Half of the stories or more in my videos on Appalachian Superstitions. Omens, and Appalachian Ghost Stories (Three videos) were told to me by deceased members of my family. While minor details deviated from story teller to another, at least three people told me those stories. Each claimed they were true. Kind regards, Barry
Very interesting, thanks. Seems at odds with the pre Norman Welsh law codification of Hywell Dda. You might want to examine the Newport Chartists, Rebecca, Merthyr and Tonypandy Riots though.
In looking at homicide rates in the countries of origin of these wild, intemperate folk, may I draw your attention the the fact that the recent homicide rates per 100k of populations are as follow: 0.87 - Ireland 0.9 - Northern Ireland 1.09 - Scotland 1.06 - Wales which rates are below the more civilised parts of the USA, I believe. Maybe a re-investigation of the causes of Appalachian homicidal tendencies might be pursued?
Paddy, do you have statistics on those places in the 1600s and 1700s? I'm not talking about those places today, mate. I do appreciate your input and recognize the truth in the state of the UK and Ireland today! It's nice to hear from an Irishman.
@@BarryVann I believe a comparison of statistics for "those places", as you call them, for the 1600's and 1700's would have to take into account the continuous war waged against the native Irish in those centuries by the English and the expropriation of their lands, a virtual genocide, destruction of their churches and hunting down of their priests and bishops. Scotland suffered mainly in the 18th century with the Highland clearances and Wales, in comparison comparison hardly at al
@@themadfarmer5207 Thems fightin words where I come from. All kidding aside. America is a/the melting pot. I find it a refreshing discussion although it hits close to home. One might consider the violence in Chicago and their …. roots.
This got under my skin in a good way. Only in the 5-10 years have I learned about all of the violence & atrocities that my grandparents went through when they were young. My mom, aunts & uncles won’t talk about it. It doesn’t change my opinion about them at all. I loved them so much. After the murder of Brianna Taylor, Tyler Childers released a song and video called, ‘Long Violent History’ that moves me to tears. It’s worth checking out. Of course, I say that I don’t have a temper, I have a Kentucky temper. 🤦♀️
It's your Gaelic ancestry! Centuries of fighting Romans, Vikings, And English has taken a toll on our Genetics. But I'm still a proud Appalachian Gael 💚
I've done a lot of research on the Eastern Kentucky feuds from 1880 to 1920. There is no set pattern that can be explained simply as a carry-over of Scots-Irish cultural influences. More often than not, violence arose from three main causes: political disputes; economic competition (which was behind the famous Hatfield-McCoy feud); and the prevalence of alcoholism and alcohol abuse. When retributive justice was sought, it often was because of the failure of the courts and law enforcement due to the control of the local political process by one dominant family or group of allies.
Dennis, thanks for your input. There is never just one factor in human collective behavior. Still, I come from poor Appalachia, and I am not interested throwing poor people under the bus.
Just because there are correlations among variables, we should not jump to causality. These people did not fall from the middle class into Appalachian poverty. That's how they handled things in the 17th and 18th centuries, and even into our lifetimes. That's the point, Dennis.
I’m a little perplexed on how you’re using the English to describe the Celtic people there’s a real bias there. Many of these accounts diminished and demonized the Celtic peoples. Many of the settlers you’re talking about we’re not indigenous Irish that came before the potato famine. These are people that colonized northern Ireland plantations known as the Ulster/Scots, most of these people were from Northumbria. The people that came from Ireland before the potato famine left ireland because the wool industry had collapsed they did not necessarily consider themselves Irish.
Don't be perplexed. I am not talking about Ireland in the current century, John. What was it like in 1700? That's when people came here from Ireland and Scotland. The Troubles in Ireland did not start in 1916. They began with the Tudors when they tried to commit genocide against the natives. Ireland did not have a love fest between 1590 and 1998 and the Good Friday Accords. My research is on the continuity of cultural traits that started 450 years ago. If you knew more about Appalachia, you would know that it was settled by Irish, Scottish, English, Germans, and French, and some Welsh people who left your homelands in the 1700s. It was poor here in the mountains. Immigration into the area did not continue after colonial times, except in coal mining areas. Old world ways were preserved here. They did the things that their parents taught them. Besides that, the Irish Republicans are not the only people with a Celtic identity. Most of the DNA in Great Britain is from native Britains. Cornwall, Wales, Brittany, Ellan Vannin, and Scotland, not to mention England outside of the east also claim a Celtic identity. I have two great, great grandmothers who came her during the Potato Famine (Teague and Shahan). My other ancestors came from Scotland and England. That is a typical combination of ethnicities here in Southern Appalachia.
I'm half Irish, with family coming from West Virginia on my Mom's side. With what you say, shouldn't the whole state of Massachusetts, or say, Ireland itself, be warzones?
I am going to assume that you were asking a sincere question, so I will take some time to West Virginia is central Appalachia, which had different historical experiences. Coal mining, for instance, introduced many other groups into Central Appalachia. Until recently, it was a blue state, which was not like southern Appalachia. Massachusetts is full of people from other places. There was an Industrial Revolution there, but it did not come to southern Appalachia. People moved out of here for places that had jobs. That is a hallmark of cultures that are retained. People are capable of learning, Padraig, even those in Appalachia. Declining births has also affected cultural proclivities. Take a look at Northern Ireland today. In just 30 years, the blood has practically stopped flowing. The Troubles didn't start there in the 1900s. They were products of political policy that goes back to the 1590s. If you really want to know more, check this out: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/abs/barry-aron-vann-in-search-of-ulsterscots-land-the-birth-and-geotheological-imaginings-of-a-transatlantic-people-16031703-columbia-university-of-south-carolina-press-2008-pp-vii252-3995-cloth/23905499DF52DDC4C0B9A9862F39355E
@@BarryVann Ok, wasn't challenging, just correcting the reference, but that's okay. Got plenty of other videos to watch without getting into tit for tats on RUclips.
That culture is dying out. Sadly, some of the positive aspects of the culture is also passing away. That's why I wrote Rediscovering the South's Celtic Heritage.
@@BarryVann It will truly never totally die out. We call it Thanksgiving dinner at Uncle Mutt's house this year. 🤣 Sorry, Uncle Mutt, just making a funny.
The English Scottish borderland is Anglo Saxon, in reality 'Celtic' in the British isles (yes Ireland is one of them) was started by the chatting classes in the 19th century, i was raised in a pre Celtic Ireland.
@@BarryVann Yes, i never heard the word when i was young, not only that it was pre 'Irish pub', if you sung in a pub you'd have been chucked out, music was played in the village hall at the dance after the pub, i saw my first Irish pub visiting London with my parents, there was a bicycle in the window my ma said 'they must think we're Eejits, Irish music was Dana, Val Doonican, the Dubliners etc, i don't recognise the Ireland in popular culture we see today, to me it all appears to have been invented in the last few years, you'd think there were Thousands of 'Celtic' songs, see how many pre 1970s you can find.
@@hetrodoxly1203 Better not tell them then that the supposed " Irish word " " Craic" is actually taken from North East coal miners in England and actually spelt " Crack" and appeared in Ireland in the 50s as part of a Guinness campaign, your right about Irish celtic culture having an Irish Nana, she never mentioned it but she loved the Val Doonican Show.
@@alisonsmith4801 the word "Craic". Came to the Northeast of England from the massive Irish influx. Huge areas of Tyneside were colonised by Irish immigrants. Gateshead, Felling Jarrow, Hebburn and Consort in particular. We Geordies are at least half Irish. My recent DNA test revealed i was 90% Gael origin.
@@occidentadvocate.9759 Really, then tell that to the the co. Durham and Northumberland Miners who where English born and used the word " crack " down the pits long before it became " fashionable " my Granda a true born Geordie always used the the expression " What's the crack " just like my Dad another miner to my own Husband another ex miner, now I'm a Geordie lass and as for a huge Irish influence on Tyneside sorry but the Geordie accent and language hasn't been influenced by Irish at all, and " crack "was used here long before the Irish claimed it as theirs. If you actually look it up " criac " was made up in the 50s long after North Eastern English where using it, can't tell me about Jarrow etc I live at the other end of the John Reid Road and belong to the Elliott's Douglas and Nicholson's and Halls. Born and Bred Geordie.
I’m from Breathitt county KY aka Bloody Beathitt. We’ve had fueds that would make the Hatfields-Mcoy fued look like children playing cowboys and Indians. Had to have the state militia brought in to settle it down.
Hi Charles, I don't think that were many Lutherans or Presbyterians taking part in those services. They were more closely akin to Anabaptists in the 16th century. As Dolly's comment shows, spiritualism and revelation were significant aspects of their lives.
@@BarryVann Presbyterians being Celts common to hilly places vs Lutherans which are more likely found in flatter places such as the North European Plain and the Midwest.
@@charlesrb3898 Irish celts are catholics, the English tried everything they could ,to force us to convert but no they couldn't make us ,ulster Scots are the Presbyterians but I wouldn't even class them as Irish, they were just land grabbers and religious bigots
Almost half the American population immigrated from Germany, basically central Europe where the Angles and various other Celtic tribes originated. Another third came from Ireland. I think Appalachia could maybe own up to its own homegrown culture of violence, or at the very least its own home-sustained culture of violence. No need to romanticize it.
I appreciate your comment, but where are your sources? Germans do not make up half of the population. The Irish do not make up a third of the population. No one is romanticizing anything.
@@BarryVann RUclips appears to have deleted my previous response. I'd included the link for my data source, which was using 2015 Census figures, and maybe RUclips rejects the use of links. But - you're right - Germans don't make up half the U.S. population. I'd gotten my figures wrong and read population numbers as percentage. The actual percentage of German heritage in the U.S. in 2015 was around 21%, with Irish and Scot at 15% and 17% respectively. Still quite a lot but not half.
@@mjinba07 Thanks for going to the trouble. I think I can find the data if I need to use them. I do know that Germans make up the largest ethnic group followed by African Americans, Mexicans, and then the Irish. We now have 330 million people in the US. When I started teaching human geography back in 1993, we had 275 million people. The growth has largely been from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.
HEH. Being of Irish/Scots descent (grandparents) it's just plain bad temper and a terrible terrible desire for retribution (sometimes classed as injustice). Extreme Grudges. Sometimes alcohol involved - all this is from both scots and irish sides. But it Festers, is passed down the generations and is dreadfully destructive. Thankfully I got some good therapy. My mother, a quiet Mancunian Methodist had NO idea how it worked nor what to do about it. I would definitely never marry a Celt. I don't trust the Scots, dislike the Poms - and as for the Irish, well, they love a fight. Still going with the therapy! One theory, maybe, is cells are basically a defeated people (way back in time), hence the grudge. Defeated because they were all separate clans and tribes, never became one like the poms and this was their downfall. Festers.
Hi Barry, My family background is heavy on the Celtic side. Apart from my Chinese DNA and a lot of English I have Welsh on my mother's side and Irish on both sides. The only hint of trouble from any of my Celtic ancestors is my maternal Irish 4x great-grandfather was sent to Australia as a convict "For the term of his natural life" for coining ie counterfeiting. One of his Australian-born sons was a complete loser and a career criminal who spent years in and out of gaol for horse theft, robbery and basically being useless. That's it. Dad's Irish side were normal people. The tone here was different and the Irish didn't congregate en masse in remote hamlets as a lot were convicts and once freed lived close to where they'd been assigned. Living in extended family groups and a bit of inbreeding might have something to do with the high crime rates in Appalachian communities, at least in the past.
Inbreeding? Where did you get that idea? Movies? Does inbreeding cause violence? There are many historic events in the past that preserved many old world ways in Appalachia that may not be seen in Canada or Australia.
Get over yourself, if you were half as smart as you think why watch this mans videos. That region of the world built the one you live in who fought the wars created the modern world? Sure wasnt people like you, it was the people of the appalachians
My family have been in Western North Carolina for many generations and I admit my family lineage looks more like a kudzu vine than a tree, but I prefer to agree with a cousin who says "We're not inbred, we're thoroughbred!"
I’m from Irish decent. Went to Western Ireland where my family is from. Irish people on the West coast have their own old ways. They are loving caring people but if you steal hurt women or back them in a corner they’ll come out swinging. Good traits
Yes my family are from the western lrelad and that is true
My paternal family is from an island off the western coast of Ireland. When my daughter told an Irish of our origins he gasped and said, "that's like being from Appalachia, they still hear the banshee." I am 3rd generation American on that side of the family.
Southern Kilkenny, Clan Cian.
Great book: Albions Seed , great insight on the cultural characteristics of Scots, English and Irish who settled here. Fascinating read, you wont be able to put it down
Deborah, 15 years ago I would have said that Albion's Seed was my favorite book, but in writing my own books while living in Scotland, I found he made some major errors in stating basic historical facts. Beyond veracity, it is an entertaining read.
@@BarryVann I'd like to hear those factual errors . The subject interests me greatly
Look at the last names of Seals, paratroopers, Special Forces. Celts are very over represented
Great point, Kevin! Take a look at Black Hawk Down. The southern accent is well-represented. Incidentally, the names of Revolutionary War soldiers were disproportionately Irish, Scottish, and Welsh.
@@BarryVann even the British army vanguard seems to be the Welsh Grenadiers, the Scotch Highlanders and Black Watch, Irish Guards
@@BarryVann The Canadian military is chock full of Nova Scotians particularly from ultra Scottish Cape Breton Island.
@@charlesrb3898 Thanks, RB!
@@BarryVann, the tune The Ministrel Boy, in Black Hawk Down is Irish too!
Have you ever been to Pennslytucky? I had an Aunt Lillian Hatfield Bell, yes those Hatfields we all were from Pennslyvania.
Patricia, when I was writing my first two books, I became familiar with the role that Pennsylvania played in creating the culture of the upper south, including central and southern Appalachia. Philadelphia was, along with Charleston, SC, a key port of entry for the Ulster-Scots.
Thank you and I did enjoy your video; however, I did have a bit of a problem with your reference to the term Celtic. Modern society seems to think of Irish and Scottish people as Celts and when you look back to the indigenous people of Scotland and Ireland they were not Celts. The Celts came from the mainland Western Europe and migrated to Ireland and Scotland by way of England. The indigenous peoples of the isles were Picts. The Celts were a mix of Gauls, and Germanic tribes dating back to Roman and earlier times and most likely originated in the Caucasus region. Modern DNA would seem to bear that fact out. Please feel free to disagree with me, to the best of my knowledge the Celts did make their way to the British Isles, just much later in time, sort of like the Vikings (also not indigenous).
@@patriciayohn6136 I'm impressed that you know that much about the various groups that called northwestern Europe their home. The use of the word Celtic, I will admit, is perhaps not completely accurate, but I think that I (three books) and other writers like Grady McWhiney use Celtic to refer populations that once spoke a Celtic language. Cornwall was also a land that has linkages to Cornish, which was a Brythonic language.
Thank you again, Barry
@@patriciayohn6136 You are welcome! As a recently retired university dean and professor, I appreciate the dialogue!
This is a very interesting topic and one my sister and I have often discussed. A very large number of my ancestors come from the appalachian south. I have family history in all of the states in that region. My family is known for violence. We call it our family temper. I have that temper and I have to really watch myself. When I sat down with my grandfather to write his history, he started by saying " someone in his family had been in every war the US had ever fought. " He was in the Battle of the Bulge in world war II. The family is full of Scot's border names. I have studied my family history for 50 years. The family is full of hard drinkers and violent people. Religion-- not so much.
Perhaps the family history of hard-drinking and violence is seen as a badge of honour for some people. You know, this is what our family Does. This is how we Are. It's Genetic, etc. I don't know. Maybe doing the 23andMe DNA tests including the medical part might lead to some answers? Its just a thought.
I have a lot of Welsh and Irish DNA and a wee bit of Scottish. I think at least some of our attitude towards some people comes from the Celtic/Brythonic healthy dislike for the English. We don't do subjugation very well and Will rebel against what we see as a slight or injustice.
@@stephanieyee9784 When I am studying my family history or studying history of any kind I try to do it with an open mind, looking only at the facts with no emotions attached. My sister and I do not drink at all because we know our family is full of people who have or had serious drinking problems. The hot tempers and the actions that come with them are facts. Captain Kidd the Scottish pirate is my 7th great grandfather in my mom's family. His daughter married into one of my ulster Scots families. I actually don't like that fact but the records say what they say. Also in mom's family I find the name Elliott. That family were famous border criminals. In dad's family I find many border robber names as well. Does that tendency carry on in families? It seems to me as I study my family that possibly it does. Studying family history helps me understand myself.
As a Southerner, I think our whole region is infused with the idea that we must be willing to show some backbone and stand up for ourselves. Right now, I don't know how else to put it. God bless, and never be ashamed of who you come from. This country wouldn't even be here without the South.
Brave of you to admit this, alcohol can make anyone violent.
Your last name is hernadez, perhaps you should look into spanish culture
I am a generational native Texan, as most native Texans we have a Scots Irish heritage. We are a quick tempered bunch with our familial American history being in TN and northern AL. My grandmother who reared me was born in 1884 she lived in absolutism. When she said of a guest, "I don't have any use for him" we never saw that man in our home again. We did not have the alcohol issue because my grandfather, a substantial land owner, did not allow alcohol on his property, not just in his home, on his property. There is a story of when grandfather confronted an unfortunate man on his property who had a pint of whiskey on him, grandfather beat him senseless. Often our old-family stories involve some one being beaten senseless.
Collectively, our culture is a warrior race, the first ones to volunteer for war, fight valiantly, and to the end.
Just for fun: Irish Alzheimer's: you forget everything but a grudge.
Well said, mate!
Here in the Ozarks we have had many examples of "personal justice" being done..
Thanks, Ammo08! I appreciate the comment!
As it should be.
Look up Skidmore, MO and the case of Ken Rex McElroy. He 'mysteriously died' in full view of everyone in the town but no one saw 'anything'. The consensus was 'he needed killin'.
@@michaelnash2138 A very well known case here in MIssouri.
Some are saying alcohol causes violence, but that has not been my experience. I have been irresponsibly drunk numerous times in my life, but I have never felt violent. IMHO, alcohol just facilitates the already-present feelings of people to whom violence has always been a choice..
I think that people who blame alcohol or society for a groups' actions is reaching for low hanging fruit. They, unlike you, don't see that behaviors can have correlations without cause and effect. I appreciate your comments and think they are valid! Merry Christmas, Barry
@@BarryVann I am not sure I should be praised for relating a tale of irresponsible drunkenness, but I appreciate your comment all the same, and a Merry post-Christmas to you! :-)
Thete are two kinds if drunks - one kind gets violent and obstreporous the other gets sleepy.
I have seen both. I'm any event a drunk is a pain in the ass!
@@lynettegreen6827 I disagree. It's not a binary thing. I get stimulated, I get more into music, I get more sociable, seldom more sleepy unless already tired. Certainly more inclined to comment on YT!
Perzactly. Just lets loose what's already there!
Ever considered that the medal of honor recipients are often of Irish ancestors?
Many who fought in America's wars are southern and of Irish descent. Check out Black Hawk Down and note the number of southern accents and names. The American Revolutionary Army was greatly manned by Irish Protestants.
Sounds like the Scottish/English Border in the 16th Century. Old habits die hard!
You are spot on! The border country was a wild frontier.
That’s where my mom’s people ( Johnstone ) were from.
@@michaelbarnett2527 Thanks for adding to the discussion, Michael.
To this day there are areas deep in Appalachia where State Troopers will not go into alone. They understand that some of these people still live by their own self made laws. I had an interesting conversation in Grundy or Hurley, Virginia with a local State Trooper.
That's a sad reality.
HAVE FRIEND THERE , THEY GET MAD IF YOU DO NOT EAT WITH THEM , OR TAKE BERRYS, HONEY WHEN GO HOME ! GOOD PEOPLE
It comes from the Scottish Boarderlands where pastoral economics mean that people have to defend their flocks through violence. Some interesting research on this.
Kathy, you are right! We could also add that thievery was common place because one could skip justice by hiding among family and friends on the other side of the border. I've actually published some work on the place: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/abs/barry-aron-vann-in-search-of-ulsterscots-land-the-birth-and-geotheological-imaginings-of-a-transatlantic-people-16031703-columbia-university-of-south-carolina-press-2008-pp-vii252-3995-cloth/23905499DF52DDC4C0B9A9862F39355E
A very interesting channel!
The concept of the "Clan and Boat's Crew"* helps to explain the difference between the Gael and the Anglo-Saxons. The Gaelic Clan was based on the land and the co-operation and tolerance to required to work it. When not under pressure, clan society lacked urgency. The Anglo-Saxon Boat's Crew were seafarers and pirates who survived the hazards of sea and war through discipline and prompt obedience; their reward and purpose was the equitable division of loot among the crew. Justice had to be swift and drastic or all might perish at sea or in battle.
By 1600, the Irish clans disintegrated under the onslaught of the piratical English. The very land of Ireland was the pirate's loot, and the Gaelic political and judicial aristocracy were scattered throughout Europe, their clans at home prey to unresolvable violence and vendettas. Having wrecked the economy, social structure, and dispute resolution mechanisms of the clans, the Anglo-Saxons took great delight in mocking the "lawlessness" and "violence" of the Gael in our darkest ages, 1600 to 1921.
Depressing stuff really, especially hearing about how long the worst of it lasted in America.
*"The Light of the West" by Gen. Sir W. Butler, Methuen & Co., 1909.
Ciaran, I appreciate the Clan and Boat Crew analogy. The Angles were relatives of the later Danish Vikings, so seafaring was a deeply imbedded cultural trait.
That might be an oversimplication. There were Gaelic pirates too - such as Niall's father Dathi. And, more famously, Grace O'Malley, who apparently spent time in more locations in western Ireland than George Washington did in the US.
@@nothingbutmilk6576 St. Patrick was taken by Gaelic pirates and sold into slavery on Ireland.
@@nothingbutmilk6576 The two whatabouts mentioned do not affect the "Clan and Boat's Crew social/political model.
1.
Niall and his O'Neill clan, did raid the Roman province of Britain as a sideline to their land-based agricultural activities. However, they did not establish a lasting maritime component within their clan. When the Romans abandoned Britain in the 5th century, they left little worth looting, and so the clans saw no further reason to maintain their naval forces or develop maritime traditions.
(No significant naval clashes occurred during the contemporary Gaelicisation of Western Scotland.)
The Gaelic clan system had no naval component during the centuries of confrontation with the maritime peoples of northern Europe, the Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, and the English.
2.
The Tudor monarchy of 16th century England sponsored various Irish warlords such as the O'Malleys when it suited them. Negotiations with warlords are always tedious; those with Grace O'Malley were particularly so. (Like American sponsored warlords in Iraq or Afghanistan.) But the O'Malleys, for all their grandiloquent bluster and assertions of autonomy, could never maintain a naval force without English approval and subsidies. And once the Spanish Armada and the clans were defeated, the subsidies ceased and the O'Malleys became irrelevant. (And I've no idea what Washington has to do with any of this!)
@@ciarandoyle4349 Thanks I didn't know that Irish piracy sharply declined "after the Romans abandoned Britain" (the Irish history teacher for my semester abroad at UC-Galway left that out of his class). He did mention that Irish pirates routinely raided Wales and Cornwell during the Roman occupation and that this piracy was responsible for the Welsh/Cornish immigration to Brittany.
My comment re Washington was a joke. Tourist traps in the US used to advertise "Washington slept here" to attract tourists. Villages in the west of Ireland do the same thing with Grace O'Malley - or least they did when I last visited Ireland in the 1980s. I hear that the west is a lot more posh and upscale these days.
Sounds like the ¨mountain people¨ my late mother warned us about. She was from the Piedmont. She refused to drive at night in the mountains.
Lynn, that's precisely where Sandy Gap is located. Of course, these days a lot of Floridians have bought out many of the locals. It's quite safe nowadays.
That's us. Lol
@@BarryVann Why do you and I say "nowadays" but most people don't? Is it a regional thing? You are giving me so many insights into my mother's family, it's amazing.
@@lynnstevens9666 Lynn, we do have a unique vocabulary that can be traced back to the days of the Vikings and perhaps earlier.
@@BarryVann I wished you'd have been here when we went to town and had to follow one of those fancy bus/R.V.'s and the max speed was 30. In the STRAIGHTS!
Now I gotta go and visit some places to see if the Blevins name is rooted up somewhere in Appalachian history. 👍🇺🇸 Thank you for sharing this channel 👍
in NC in the blue ridge mtns there are lots of Blevins
There is lots of Blevins in Georgia and Tennessee also,especially around Dalton Georgia.
I have an 86 year old friend whose husband was a marine in Korea and Vietnam. She wasn't as fearful for his safety in those places as she was when he served as a recruiter in Appalachia.
Flowers is found in Sandy Gap, North Carolina. Do you have family there?
A recruiter would be looked down upon there. I'm a Nam vet and the guy would have to make a good show BUT would still have friends aplenty. Respect was and is still earned by natives who are a rare and endangered species. GBWYall
@@BarryVann sorry for this late reply. Chances are that I am DNA related to Flowers in NC. My ancestors came in through VA (a sea captain named John Flower) then NC, then down to south GA after the Revolution. Thanks for writing!
@@lewiemcneely9143 thanks for writing. My friend, who just turned 87, was raised in downtown Memphis, as was her Marine husband. So you can see the perspective she grew up with. God bless you and have a great day.
@@suzanneflowers2230 There was a James Flowers here for a while from Gawgah that had a son called Butch and daughter named Milrose. Don't know what part but around Wadley. They opened and ran a building supply here. The main man was J Harold Rowland. A preacher and a FINE guy with a daughter Cheryl and sons Hal and Ernie. Gilbert Peele and Thomas McKinney were some more. This is in Western North Carolina by the way of which I am a purebred hillbilly. Blessed to get back home from a grub run so YOU have a LARGE time as the Gawgah crowd allowed! GBWYou!
That makes more sense in relation to my quick temper... Viking, Scotch-Irish... I'm doomed... 😇
The video is correct that ethnicity has to be taken into consideration when considering homicide and crime rate rather than crude Marxist reductionism. However, as romantic as it is to atribute this to wild Celtic origins, it soon becomes obvious that one ethnic group inparticular in the US contributes disproportionately to crime statistics.
I don't think that the murders in our families were romantic. This is not a version of Scotland 2.0. Until declining birth rates started in 1964, our families did not know any other way to behave; they arrived in the backcountry with 17th century ideas, and through lack of contact with the outside world, they kept their old world ways. What's romantic about using an outhouse? I was born in a house with no running water and an outhouse. That's how the old timers relieved themselves. They handled their disputes the same way as their grandparents. Have you ever heard of the Irish troubles? Do you think they were romantic? I would go on, but I don't think it would make a difference. Best wishes!
@@BarryVann I agree with the 1964 marker. I worked with a young woman from east Texas who shared with me that until she moved to Dallas she did her laundry in a wash pot over a fire. The old ways died hard.
The history of the blood feud was common in Northern European cultures going back to early middle ages. Feuds in the Southern Colonies of North America could be traced back to the 17th and 18th centuries. During the Revolutionary War, many of the battles fought in South Carolina and other southern colonies were between feuding families.
Thanks for offering some information, Cole! Regards, Barry
@@BarryVann Thank you for your videos. My own family on my mother side came to Virginia in 1635. Her family names include Atkins, Hindman, Rumery, and Dupree which we learned was French Hugenot origin. The Atkins, owned the land that the Carter Plantation eventually was built on in 1710.
My father side was in North Carolina, in the 18th Century and included Parker, and Bryson (from Texas) and ? Our history is somewhat sketchy on that side, but we do know, that the Parkers moved to Atlanta Georgia prior to the Civil War, before moving to Oklahoma and Texas.
@@coleparker Awesome information, Cole! In my video on atrocities in Southern Appalachia during the Civil War, I talk a great deal about Captain Goldman Bryson.
absolutely many chose to either be a tory or a whig based on the choices of people that had at one times them wheter real or percieved it led to a lot of killing barn and house burning on both sides.
Enjoy your videos and insights. My ancestors were from Graham county. There were Garlands, Welch, Sawyers etc. While doing family history there seemed to be quite a bit of violence and murder. I may be wrong but it seems like this escalated after the civil war. Wondered if P.T.S.D. had anything to do with it? Jill Sifford
That's a good question, Norman. You might be on to something. Barry
Gra-ham County as it's said over there.
@@lewiemcneely9143 that's right! I remember my grandparents pronouncing it that way.
@@baronvann1314 I lived on Hanging Dog and wished I was still there but can't be 2 places at once. Thanks for everything and those are some FINE people back in the hollers!
Am also a Graham. Our clan is Montrose. Our Graham ancestors had rather nefarious rolls in the deaths of William Wallace, Lord Darnley ( Mary Queen of Scots husband) and the downfall of Rob Roy MacGregor. We also invented Graham crackers! I've ever had s'mores!
Thanks for posting this. It explains a lot my ancestors from Cherokee and Clay count NC. Lots of scuffles and scrapes over the years. Some with family. Some with strangers. Many an ill temper raged especially when moonshine was involved. Lol Sad but true. Proud of that heritage though, and you had to be tough just to make it in those mountains. Doctors were few and far between, working the fields was hard work from sun up to sun down and big families meant loads of mouths to feed. It couldn't have been an easy life that's for sure. Freaks me out sometimes to hear my parents talking about lack of indoor plumbing as kids and that was in the 1960's. I think I would have been mean too without a toilet to flush. Just sayin' lol Great video!
Tonia, I'm related to the Rogers from southern Cherokee County. My third great grandmother was Martha Rogers who married Amariah Voyles. They are buried on the state line with Georgia. Thanks for watching! Merry Christmas! Barry
@@baronvann1314 I went and looked the connection up. Martha Rogers was my great, great, great aunt. If it's the same lady, I think the birth date was around 1841. I am not going to get too excited though because my daddy always said there were several sets of Rogers in Cherokee county, but I guess if you go back far enough there is a connection. Anyway, love your channel. We live in Maryland now, but have a house down there still. It's home. I love tracking as much info about our heritage as I can. I am huge Civil War buff too. Martha's brother was J.V. B Rogers a major with North Carolina 2nd Calvalry. Merry Christmas to you as well! Keep the videos coming!
@@baronvann1314 did someone say Rogers🙂 Some Rogers came to WNC from Tn after the Revolutionary war. Those traced back to Samuel Rogers from Ireland and Scotland.
George Rogers Park has the Rogers family tree. I found him on Find a grave. Copied some. Can't post pic here.
Thank you! I just learned that one of my great uncles shot his brother in the head (in NC) back in the 1870s. I was horrified that one brother could do that to another. Hearing this video helps me understand it better, and feel a little better about my ancestors.
I'm glad that the video gave you some deeper insight into the culture.
Susan, I'm glad the video gave you some context to understand what happened to your uncle. I'm sorry that it happened.
@@baronvann1314 Thank you for your response. I've learned that they were wild, they went on a crime spree up and down the east coast. I've read that there was a lot of wildness and crime after the Civil War.
My dads side of the family used to fight each other with hammers
@@stevepenney2073 Were they from the Appalachians also?
Having lived in many areas of the US, thanks to Uncle Sam, I've seen this disparity in violence. As a result I understand inner city violence more than the hair trigger temper of some of the Scottish-Irish folks living in the Ozarks for generations.
One insight my Native American grandmother offered is that "they don't get out much". As in living in a single area so long they missed out on experiencing different ways to live and cope. My ancestry is 25% Irish and those ancestors left clannishness behind them, even before the great potato famine and mass migration. It's sad that we lost all of our Irish culture but a certain clearheadedness was found.
Thanks for the comment, Sandra! I suppose what your grandfather was saying is similar to "familiarity breeds contempt." That's an interesting idea.
More than likely they were Ulster/Scots not the indigenous Irish. They were from Northumbria maybe the lowland Scotland. They were the ones that came over before the potato famine. When the wool Industry collapsed in Ireland the colonizers left Northern Ireland for the Americas. These people had a protestant background not Catholic so they were not indigenous to Ireland.
@@jgg59 yes, you are right, if we add southwestern Scotland.
@@baronvann1314 So I don’t know if it was being really defined as Celtic.
@@jgg59 that's why I called it Anglo-Celtic. You must be in Ireland to split hairs like that. 👍
English and Scottish descent American.
I'm an 11th generation South Carolinian. DNA: England & Northwestern Europe
45%, Scotland 38%, Wales, 10%, Ireland 7%. We don't like intimidation, we don't let bullies have their way. We don't trust the government. We don't have the patience to wait on law enforcement to seek justice. Romans 12:19 Do not avenge yourselves is something we struggle with. The question is; is it possible for a culture to eventually be embedded into the DNA? Answering that question could be Politically Incorrect, even if scientifically proven. If any of you trolls want to fight me over my comments, I'm still here in SC! LOL!
Tim, there are some trolls hitting me on this and other topics, but I think you pose an interesting question. I think that gene types are passed on to the next generation, so what works well will be better represented in future generations. Thanks for inserting an interesting point to consider!
I know a lot of folks that feel just like you do and I'm one of them, just slightly over the line to your north!
@@lewiemcneely9143 I go to Hendersonville about once a month.
@@timsimmons7916 Hendersonville is a good solid hour from here or a little better. I used to haul from Vulcan there a lot and went to Pardee hospital some bvut now am exiled to the home/20 because of being a public nuisance.
@@timsimmons7916 Good old 26!
I live just 15 minutes from Devil Anse Hatfields home. My wife is related to him on her grandmothers side. My family is from Germany Scotland on my mother’s side and England on dads side. We live in a WV border county with Kentucky.
I'm related to the Hatfields too. My more direct line even had a feud with the McCoys before the famous Hatfields vs McCoys.
The operative word in this video is "perceived" wrong doing. Alcohol involved. Nothing good can come after one has enbibed in excess. Nice video Barry really enjoyed the stories.
Thanks, Jeff! Merry Christmas! Barry
"Nothing good can come after one has enbibed in excess. " I disagree.
I daresay Mark Twain might have agreed with you. If you haven't read the chapter of Huckleberry Finn entitled "Why the Lynching Bee Failed" I recommend it. "The Mind of the South" by J.W. Cash also has some pertinent observations.
My family's roots in Georgia go back to before the founding of the US. My parents came from the Appalachian section in the Northern part of the state. Consequently, I spent a good bit of my childhood visiting relatives up that way. I always had a sense that violence lay just below the surface.
10,000 similar stories, but you missed the point of WHY. For a great read: “ The Redneck Manifesto” by Jim Goad.
What would that point be? Why not share it with us? These are eight to 10 minute videos. I wrote two books explaining the why.
Omg I was just talking about this. I’ve been reading about the feuds in Clay and Laurel county Kentucky that was done by different clans of my family. My family were kin fighting with each other. I’m curious if I’m related to these Johnson and Bakers clans. 😂😂😂
Just subscribed. Love the stories. Im from NE AL.
Hi Jessie, Thanks for subscribing! Welcome! I will have to check out your channel.
If the prevalence of Celtic people were the main cause for different rates of violent crime both Newfoundland and Cape Breton in Canada would be above the national average. However, this isn't the case.
John, thanks for that information. It's interesting. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the immigration of Highland Scots to Eastern Canada occur in 1815? That's a century after the start of the Anglo-Celtic people from Ulster began settling in southern Appalachia. These folks had a distinct history of being a buffer zone against Irish Catholics.
Oh shoot!. Just re-viewed your video. My late mother said her mother's cousin was the Cherokee County sheriff in the 1920s/30s. My mother's oldest cousin married a Baker, and one of their children (who lives in Boone) is a full-time sheriff's deputy. FWIW, he's a very nice man who's world view is a lot broader than cousins who stayed in the Mecklenburg/Gaffney areas. BTW, my maternal grandmother was a Gaffney. Whoo boy are you talking about my family!
Howdy, cousin! Dolly Voyles Baker was my great aunt.
He might've been sheriff when Horace Kephart was stomping all over, getting his stuff to write his book. He ended up with a home base in Bryson City.
My old Dad told me tales of when he was a young man in the early 1900s that left me scratching my head about how acceptable and common place they seemed to him. Yep, we're right over the line from Arkansas and located in the Ozarks. Both maternal and paternal lines started out in the Appalachians some 200 years ago. Of course if all I had to do was hang on to plow handles and look at a horses rump all day I might have a little trouble with violent retribution mysel.
Larry, thanks for chiming in the discussion. My two children were born within 40 miles of the Arkansas-Missouri border. Being from Tennessee, I was always impressed how much the culture seemed familiar and like home.
@@BarryVann we are just over the border in Northeastern Oklahoma. Hills are the same, people the same, except it was here that folks ran to when they got in big trouble in Arkansas and Missouri. Ever wonder where those border reevers of the Lowland Scots ever got to? It was here.
@@larryreese6146 yes, but when I worked at NEO A&M College in Miami, few people cared about it. By the way, their descendants can be found all the way back to Appalachia.
@@baronvann1314 yes. You can tell by the language usage, if you listen. I once heard or read that the Scots Irish influence was one of the major influences in the settlement of the U.S. They were a tough adaptable bunch of people. They landed in America late, hit the frontier from Appalachia and didn't stop until they reached the West Coast. They borrowed the rifle gun from the Germans, the log cabin from the Swedes, and everything else from the Native Americans. If you listen you can hear similarities in the speech patterns of the Atlantic Seaboard. Nobody inland speaks like them. Appalachia and the folks who came from there influenced the rest of America.
@@baronvann1314 Sir, since you are from Tennessee and familiar with the way people might think there, let me ask you a question. When I was growing up it seemed to me that exacting violent retribution was a far more acceptable sin than not standing on your own two independent feet or not being good at your word. That's not to say that should a good dependable fellow fall on hard times that you shouldn't give him every assistance that you can. Is that the main value system where you come from?
As a Welsh/Scots-Irish descendant, I enjoy these videos and histories that you make.
I grew up thinking this was normal...
It was normal where I come from too!
Just subscribed upon second viewing of this valuable channel. Concept of Celtic justice new to me but intriguing if not persuasive. Good work.
Hi, Van, welcome! I have been criticized for using the label "Celtic" by some folks. To clarify, the groups that I am referring to as Celtic came from regions in the 1600s and 1700s that were much more aware of their loss of liberty and cultural distinction in the old country than some do today. Still, a sizable proportion of the people continue to speak the old Celtic languages in Wales, Ireland, Brittany, and Scotland. Cornwall was the last place in England to see the death of a Celtic language. The language was called Cornish.
@@BarryVann There are what I call recreational scolds out there looking to give posters a hard time. I am NOT a purist, and know many opinions are close-run things, inevitably somewhat arbitrary. Speculation is fine, as long as we admit we don't know for sure. In fact, it's those who ARE sure who are shameless ideologs/frauds. I welcome new information and new "theories." Keep at it!
I have known many Scottish, Welsh and Irish and everywhere they are the same, spot on I would say.
Thanks, Anthony! I appreciate the positive feedback. It's easy to tell if the author of a comment has ever been in those places, especially here in southern Appalachia or the Ozarks.
Allens, Hawkes, and others in NC and Virginia and the Hillsville courthouse. My great grandfather kept up some of the, Allens in the woods. then finally told them and go back to house in Hillsville.
Mechell, I have them on my list. Thanks! Barry
Most Southern American whites and Southern Dixie culture has Ancestry from Celtic western England, Wales, Celtic highlands, and Ireland, Manx, Breton and Cornish. And as i said Celtic west England.
And Anglo-Saxon East England and Anglo-Saxon Lowland Scotland.
Southern America is of Anglo-Celtic cultural and ethnic derivation.
American whites come from Britain Similar to how Anglo-Saxons in England come from Germany and Denmark or Netherlands.
Etc.
That's a nice summary of their parentage. Barry
We always had to defend ourselves against other selves - English and Romans but also against our ain’t kin folk - Clans. Due to the fact many Scots did not have much but what they had they wanted to keep and no one was going to take this from them. I guess we do have fiery tempers, I’m Scottish/Irish with auburn hair but hey I’m proud of who I am and where I’ve come from. Note: I do keep my temper under control. Loved this show - thanks x
Thanks for watching and for writing, Goldie! Best wishes, Barry Vann
Research the Whitaker/Altizer feud from Tazewell county Va. , for more on this subject!
Thanks for the recommendations, Michael.
Don’t forget Georgia was set up as a penal colony and Appalachia extends into north east Georgia!!!
I have nor forgotten that the British established Georgia for criminals. They did a similar function in Australia. Alas, I'm not talking about people in Georgia. The examples I used were in North Carolina and East Tennessee. Don't forget that
That was so cool! Explains a lot about some of my ancestors!
Glad you enjoyed it!
You for got to tell that ireland scotland and west england are ancients iberians peninsula celts know today by spain as well you don't mention the wild gueese irish that were part of the spanish inquisition and conquistadores but from all the celts the most blood tursty was the iberians peninsula celts from the front liners of hannibal the cartage to the 10 legion of julius caesar which was made of Iberian peninsula celts plus if you want to see the real deal of pure stock celts fighters you have read a ancient city in spain call Numantia it took the Romans 7 or 8 legions and 20 years to defeat 1500 hundred iberians celts and by the end the iberians peninsula celts burn the city and from the youngest to the older grab their sword and cut their own neck with a smile looking at the Romans soldiers real simple plus all that ancients blood is alive in the latins americas special in the mountains of Puerto Rico and cuba and others now they are back tattooing their bodies and faces like ancients times and bringing fear one more time to the whole world with crimes that spook nations plus virginia kentucky australia are the same blood brothers plus in every town every city in all nations and country a celt blood line doing life right now for killing in the whole world by scientist knowledge and don't worry about I'm 86 percent celt by my DNA test North West england and scotland 42 percent 31 percent Ireland and Basque people and north portugal North spain French and 12 percent Norway switzerland and 2 percent Puerto Rico native no african or hebrew or moors or oriental or nothing else and around 40 percent of my family is Red heads blonds brown hair blue green and brown eyes no black hair or black eyes here by having red hair genes I'm probably decendend from the sons of the ancients gods call giants in ancients civilizations one thing I can say we are happy people mountains people and simple people to somebody make us mad everything change to bloody tursty war like animal that knife will be out and in faster than pilling a egg is something with the celts and knife by natural laws real simple and we still hold the titles in the bloody arenas plus like I said the mountains simplesity and knifes and the love for the sound of water is a celtic thing and in north america is 50 millions wild gueese irish decendend amigo and mixing a mountain puerto rican with a irish females is building a killing machine from birth and believe me I know take care amigo
That's a different topic, Sal. I do tell people that when they ask. These videos are about surnames, not genes.
Theres been a change since i was growing up and the people arent quite as violent as i remember them in the 60`s and 70`s. But its there no matter what just under the surface.A good bar room brawler was a recognized man in his community whether you thought highly of him or not and there was a bit of a wild west tinge to it.
I think you are spot on, Steve! Barry
Don't know if you're acquainted with Horace Kephart's book, 'Our Southern Highlanders' I think it's call (but the author is right) That justice system of waylaying however. whoever and wherever was standard practice across the waters. And since many ancestors came from there, was adopted straight off. And he ended up having his home base in Bryson City, NC. Really enjoying your outlook on my homeland, the Blue Ridge. Thanks and GBWYou
What cultural factors result in the insane murder rates in Chicago and Detroit? Just wondering.
Max, that's a good question. I spent much of my youth living in Detroit. It was considered to be a dangerous place in the 1960s. The folks in southern Appalachia are not the only group that sought justice outside of official channels. Those acts of violence take place within particular groups. Like the hill people of the South, those urban populations never had a tradition of relying on cops. Gangs in urban areas mark their territories and operate outside of official justice system.
My guess is, from looking at that photo,those folks would not have voted for Biden.
Indeed!
You do not clarify by your regional studies the black to white?
I have no idea what are talking about in your comment. I gave the location and the DNA results.
@Michelle After Dark
Another great episode, good sir!
Thank you, Jeff!
@@BarryVann You're certainly welcome!
There is an interesting book on this subject called Killings: Folk Justice in the Upper South by William Montell. My family is in it although he changes the names from Crabtree to Christie. They lived in TN at the TN/KY/VA borders. I know from family history that my great grandfather was killed over a pig.
Caught this one late, but I will comment that you are looking at the wrong demographic as a cause of the current murder rate. Since I live in the state where half of the Hatfield and McCoy feud took place, I'll start there. Looking at the race of those arrested for Murder in the State of Kentucky, 38% were black in a state were the proportion of the population is about 8%. The race of the victim is statistically the same as the perpetrator. Arkansas has statistics that show the same trend, 70% of those arrested for murder were black, and those murders occurred in about 15% of the states population. That same pattern happens in every state with a large urban black population. While Appalachia has the reputation for violence, you are safer there than in East St. Louis or South Chicago. I don't see any Appalachian community tolerating the levels of violence that you see in many inner city areas.
I’m from the same branch of the McCoy family that produced those involved in the famous feud. My something great grandfather was a brother to Sally McCoy and went west.
1/4 Scottish ✋️ and from my family history they were fighters. Very tough people. Heltonville IN used to have barn fights just for fun, for bets.
That sounds familiar to my neck of the woods. I lived in Detroit for my elementary school years. I seldom had a fight or need to defend myself. When I moved back to Tennessee at the age of 12, even girls whipped my butt for kicks and giggles. I had to learn how to fight pretty quickly.
@The Vanntage Point I live in Swain Co NC and your videos are awesome. Sharing them with Family as my uncle always said we were Melungeons.
Even in Anglo-Saxon England, they are only 30 percent "Germanic". In other words, even the English are predominately native Britons, or 70% Celtic.
That's true, but there is a gradient towards more German DNA in the east.
Culture and genes are two different issues. It's interesting how folks in Britain can tell a person's region by the way he looks. I was living in Scotland and visited Northern Ireland for the first time in 2002. I was told by a Scotsman to be careful in Belfast because, he said, "you look like a Protestant."
Sounds like the first hand stories I've heard of the Irish Bell Family. Gotta watch that temper.
Been there. Neighbor and brother kicked a guy to dearh, shot my dog qnd stalked us. Little chicago in indian valley Va
My “Hillbilly” Grandma said if someone does you wrong “forgive ‘em but don’t forget ‘em.”
That sounds like sound wisdom! Thanks, Morgan! Kind regards, Barry
That sounds like sound wisdom, Morgan! Thanks, Barry Vann
I really enjoy these. I think lol. Provides me Fodder & perhaps Gold for my own Doc studies.
Good for you, Rod. If you think about it, most cultures that are not mainstream in a population with laws, often revert to more primitive ways to seek justice. Barry
@@BarryVann Thank you! Don't always agree with you 100%, but you certainly challenge people to Think! Keep 'em coming, buddy.
i'm jason mccoy of the the clan or macaodh
Nice to meet you, Jason! Barry
I have heard similiar stories about my family. From Monroe cty tn
A man killed his wife when he caught her with another man, he got on a crime of passion after he shot and killed his wife
Appalachian justice is still available on tap in its native home. Y'all be sweet now!
Hey it’s the Hatfields! My family. We ended up In Tennessee.
Not too many Gaelic Irish there
That's true!
You should have your lungs looked at, your inhales sound ... idk, not right... like the spongy material inside your lungs is partially saturated with something like imagine soaking up oil with a dish sponge and ringing it out really good but some oil is still stuck to it all over... it sounds like your alveoli are in a similar condition. Could just be a quick passing illness, but if it persist, I'd say have the doc give a listen to them.
Grant, you are quite perceptive. A day after the video, I had a unit of blood drawn because of too many red blood cells. Could there be a connection since red blood carries oxygen?
@@baronvann1314 possibly, I'm not medically qualified, I just picked up on the sound and it seemed off and so since health is so important I figured I better say something in case nobody else noticed or wouldn't say anything trying to be polite. Best of luck, hope it all turns out to be nothing.
@@binaryglitch64 Thanks, I appreciate you for stepping forward and sharing your concerns with me.
I'm not sure I agree with your thesis. In Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada most inhabitants are of Irish and British Isles extraction. Almost every man owns a rifle, as hunting is widely practised. Yet, the murder rate is extremely low. Newfies like to drink, socialize, and they are known as poachers (hunting and fishing out of season). Beyond that, they are law abiding, and known for their generosity toward others, anyone in need.
Mary, we are talking about two different populations of people. One is in Canada and the other in southern Appalachia. The people in southern Appalachia came from Ulster, which was a political mess for 500 years (The Troubles, Blood Sunday and all that). They came to Appalachia because of political persecution. They were used as a buffer zone against Catholics in Ireland and then Natives on the frontier. They had no trust of government or a legal system. Like gangs in large cities, they reverted to more primitive ways to exact justice. In the case of my people, they had a history of violence before they landed in America. It's not my thesis. Check out Grady McWhiney: Cracker Culture in the Old South; and David Hackett Fischer's Albion's Seed.
The Scots were always border people. They had to rely on family connections , not government because kings were always changing. Plus they always had to fight someone. Its probably their influence that won the revolutionary war
Thanks!
I've ready these stories in my genealogy research, my Helton line were what one would call a "wild bunch"! LOL
Those stories can be quite entertaining. Half of the stories or more in my videos on Appalachian Superstitions. Omens, and Appalachian Ghost Stories (Three videos) were told to me by deceased members of my family. While minor details deviated from story teller to another, at least three people told me those stories. Each claimed they were true. Kind regards, Barry
Very interesting, thanks. Seems at odds with the pre Norman Welsh law codification of Hywell Dda. You might want to examine the Newport Chartists, Rebecca, Merthyr and Tonypandy Riots though.
Thanks for the info
In looking at homicide rates in the countries of origin of these wild, intemperate folk, may I draw your attention the the fact that the recent homicide rates per 100k of populations are as follow:
0.87 - Ireland
0.9 - Northern Ireland
1.09 - Scotland
1.06 - Wales
which rates are below the more civilised parts of the USA, I believe.
Maybe a re-investigation of the causes of Appalachian homicidal tendencies might be pursued?
Paddy, do you have statistics on those places in the 1600s and 1700s? I'm not talking about those places today, mate. I do appreciate your input and recognize the truth in the state of the UK and Ireland today! It's nice to hear from an Irishman.
@@BarryVann I believe a comparison of statistics for "those places", as you call them, for the 1600's and 1700's would have to take into account the continuous war waged against the native Irish in those centuries by the English and the expropriation of their lands, a virtual genocide, destruction of their churches and hunting down of their priests and bishops. Scotland suffered mainly in the 18th century with the Highland clearances and Wales, in comparison comparison hardly at al
hardly at all apart from the attempted suppression of the Welsh language.
Guess the reason for high homicide numbers is because it is Murica
@@themadfarmer5207 Thems fightin words where I come from.
All kidding aside. America is a/the melting pot.
I find it a refreshing discussion although it hits close to home.
One might consider the violence in Chicago and their …. roots.
The Scandinavians were once vicious vikings, but got educated and moved on to live by the rule of law.
Even when they were Vikings, they had a well established legal system.
This got under my skin in a good way. Only in the 5-10 years have I learned about all of the violence & atrocities that my grandparents went through when they were young. My mom, aunts & uncles won’t talk about it. It doesn’t change my opinion about them at all. I loved them so much.
After the murder of Brianna Taylor, Tyler Childers released a song and video called, ‘Long Violent History’ that moves me to tears. It’s worth checking out.
Of course, I say that I don’t have a temper, I have a Kentucky temper. 🤦♀️
This is a subject that people like to explain away with inequalities, but that is too simple of an explanation.
It's your Gaelic ancestry! Centuries of fighting Romans, Vikings, And English has taken a toll on our Genetics. But I'm still a proud Appalachian Gael 💚
I've done a lot of research on the Eastern Kentucky feuds from 1880 to 1920. There is no set pattern that can be explained simply as a carry-over of Scots-Irish cultural influences. More often than not, violence arose from three main causes: political disputes; economic competition (which was behind the famous Hatfield-McCoy feud); and the prevalence of alcoholism and alcohol abuse. When retributive justice was sought, it often was because of the failure of the courts and law enforcement due to the control of the local political process by one dominant family or group of allies.
Dennis, thanks for your input. There is never just one factor in human collective behavior. Still, I come from poor Appalachia, and I am not interested throwing poor people under the bus.
Just because there are correlations among variables, we should not jump to causality. These people did not fall from the middle class into Appalachian poverty. That's how they handled things in the 17th and 18th centuries, and even into our lifetimes. That's the point, Dennis.
@@BarryVann seems some had to work their way up to poverty.
@@BarryVann They were born in it and stayed there and lived as best they could.
I’m a little perplexed on how you’re using the English to describe the Celtic people there’s a real bias there. Many of these accounts diminished and demonized the Celtic peoples. Many of the settlers you’re talking about we’re not indigenous Irish that came before the potato famine. These are people that colonized northern Ireland plantations known as the Ulster/Scots, most of these people were from Northumbria. The people that came from Ireland before the potato famine left ireland because the wool industry had collapsed they did not necessarily consider themselves Irish.
Don't be perplexed. I am not talking about Ireland in the current century, John. What was it like in 1700? That's when people came here from Ireland and Scotland. The Troubles in Ireland did not start in 1916. They began with the Tudors when they tried to commit genocide against the natives. Ireland did not have a love fest between 1590 and 1998 and the Good Friday Accords. My research is on the continuity of cultural traits that started 450 years ago. If you knew more about Appalachia, you would know that it was settled by Irish, Scottish, English, Germans, and French, and some Welsh people who left your homelands in the 1700s. It was poor here in the mountains. Immigration into the area did not continue after colonial times, except in coal mining areas. Old world ways were preserved here. They did the things that their parents taught them. Besides that, the Irish Republicans are not the only people with a Celtic identity. Most of the DNA in Great Britain is from native Britains. Cornwall, Wales, Brittany, Ellan Vannin, and Scotland, not to mention England outside of the east also claim a Celtic identity. I have two great, great grandmothers who came her during the Potato Famine (Teague and Shahan). My other ancestors came from Scotland and England. That is a typical combination of ethnicities here in Southern Appalachia.
@@BarryVann I’m quite aware of my history.
I live near pikeville ky. I am related to Hatfields!
You want a trophy or somein? There was way worse fueds than them
I'm half Irish, with family coming from West Virginia on my Mom's side. With what you say, shouldn't the whole state of Massachusetts, or say, Ireland itself, be warzones?
I am going to assume that you were asking a sincere question, so I will take some time to West Virginia is central Appalachia, which had different historical experiences. Coal mining, for instance, introduced many other groups into Central Appalachia. Until recently, it was a blue state, which was not like southern Appalachia. Massachusetts is full of people from other places. There was an Industrial Revolution there, but it did not come to southern Appalachia. People moved out of here for places that had jobs. That is a hallmark of cultures that are retained. People are capable of learning, Padraig, even those in Appalachia. Declining births has also affected cultural proclivities. Take a look at Northern Ireland today. In just 30 years, the blood has practically stopped flowing. The Troubles didn't start there in the 1900s. They were products of political policy that goes back to the 1590s. If you really want to know more, check this out: www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-british-studies/article/abs/barry-aron-vann-in-search-of-ulsterscots-land-the-birth-and-geotheological-imaginings-of-a-transatlantic-people-16031703-columbia-university-of-south-carolina-press-2008-pp-vii252-3995-cloth/23905499DF52DDC4C0B9A9862F39355E
Ever hear of the IRA.
Watch the movie Patriot Games.
it is the nature of beast
hi
Hi Ms. Campbell! How are you?
The Hatfield and McCoy families of Kentucky?
What about them?
Yes, the Hatfields were from West Virginia, the McCoys from Kentucky.
My Mothers families are from Eastern KY and her family (Holbrook) was involved in the Underwood-Holbrook feud (circa 1865-1890)
Hi, Jerry, would that be the Underwood-Holbrook feud from Carter County?
@@BarryVann Correct Barry.
I know some Holbrooks out of Tennessee that could get right fractious. They ended up in SC.
King James VI of Scotland; James I of Great Britain
Dennis, I know who he was. You clearly do not know the literature. You have no idea who you are challenging.
@@BarryVann Ok, wasn't challenging, just correcting the reference, but that's okay. Got plenty of other videos to watch without getting into tit for tats on RUclips.
@@dennishillman6205Merry Christmas!
Very interesting, following
Hi, Donna, thanks for the kind word! Barry
😬
That culture is dying out. Sadly, some of the positive aspects of the culture is also passing away. That's why I wrote Rediscovering the South's Celtic Heritage.
@@BarryVann It will truly never totally die out. We call it Thanksgiving dinner at Uncle Mutt's house this year. 🤣 Sorry, Uncle Mutt, just making a funny.
The English Scottish borderland is Anglo Saxon, in reality 'Celtic' in the British isles (yes Ireland is one of them) was started by the chatting classes in the 19th century, i was raised in a pre Celtic Ireland.
You were raised in pre-Celtic Ireland?
@@BarryVann Yes, i never heard the word when i was young, not only that it was pre 'Irish pub', if you sung in a pub you'd have been chucked out, music was played in the village hall at the dance after the pub, i saw my first Irish pub visiting London with my parents, there was a bicycle in the window my ma said 'they must think we're Eejits, Irish music was Dana, Val Doonican, the Dubliners etc, i don't recognise the Ireland in popular culture we see today, to me it all appears to have been invented in the last few years, you'd think there were Thousands of 'Celtic' songs, see how many pre 1970s you can find.
@@hetrodoxly1203 Better not tell them then that the supposed " Irish word " " Craic" is actually taken from North East coal miners in England and actually spelt " Crack" and appeared in Ireland in the 50s as part of a Guinness campaign, your right about Irish celtic culture having an Irish Nana, she never mentioned it but she loved the Val Doonican Show.
@@alisonsmith4801 the word "Craic". Came to the Northeast of England from the massive Irish influx. Huge areas of Tyneside were colonised by Irish immigrants. Gateshead, Felling Jarrow, Hebburn and Consort in particular. We Geordies are at least half Irish. My recent DNA test revealed i was 90% Gael origin.
@@occidentadvocate.9759 Really, then tell that to the the co. Durham and Northumberland Miners who where English born and used the word " crack " down the pits long before it became " fashionable " my Granda a true born Geordie always used the the expression " What's the crack " just like my Dad another miner to my own Husband another ex miner, now I'm a Geordie lass and as for a huge Irish influence on Tyneside sorry but the Geordie accent and language hasn't been influenced by Irish at all, and " crack "was used here long before the Irish claimed it as theirs. If you actually look it up " criac " was made up in the 50s long after North Eastern English where using it, can't tell me about Jarrow etc I live at the other end of the John Reid Road and belong to the Elliott's Douglas and Nicholson's and Halls. Born and Bred Geordie.
I’m from Breathitt county KY aka Bloody Beathitt. We’ve had fueds that would make the Hatfields-Mcoy fued look like children playing cowboys and Indians. Had to have the state militia brought in to settle it down.
Just as long as they don’t extend their sense of “justice” to the next Trumpster Insurrection.
Lutherans vs Presbyterians?
Hi Charles, I don't think that were many Lutherans or Presbyterians taking part in those services. They were more closely akin to Anabaptists in the 16th century.
As Dolly's comment shows, spiritualism and revelation were significant aspects of their lives.
@@BarryVann Presbyterians being Celts common to hilly places vs Lutherans which are more likely found in flatter places such as the North European Plain and the Midwest.
Gotcha!
@@charlesrb3898 Irish celts are catholics, the English tried everything they could ,to force us to convert but no they couldn't make us ,ulster Scots are the Presbyterians but I wouldn't even class them as Irish, they were just land grabbers and religious bigots
@@marcphelan9883 Celts at war with Celts. The English are mainly Germanic.
Almost half the American population immigrated from Germany, basically central Europe where the Angles and various other Celtic tribes originated. Another third came from Ireland. I think Appalachia could maybe own up to its own homegrown culture of violence, or at the very least its own home-sustained culture of violence. No need to romanticize it.
I appreciate your comment, but where are your sources? Germans do not make up half of the population. The Irish do not make up a third of the population. No one is romanticizing anything.
@@BarryVann RUclips appears to have deleted my previous response. I'd included the link for my data source, which was using 2015 Census figures, and maybe RUclips rejects the use of links.
But - you're right - Germans don't make up half the U.S. population. I'd gotten my figures wrong and read population numbers as percentage. The actual percentage of German heritage in the U.S. in 2015 was around 21%, with Irish and Scot at 15% and 17% respectively. Still quite a lot but not half.
@@mjinba07 Thanks for going to the trouble. I think I can find the data if I need to use them. I do know that Germans make up the largest ethnic group followed by African Americans, Mexicans, and then the Irish. We now have 330 million people in the US. When I started teaching human geography back in 1993, we had 275 million people. The growth has largely been from Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, and Asia.
HEH. Being of Irish/Scots descent (grandparents) it's just plain bad temper and a terrible terrible desire for retribution (sometimes classed as injustice). Extreme Grudges. Sometimes alcohol involved - all this is from both scots and irish sides. But it Festers, is passed down the generations and is dreadfully destructive. Thankfully I got some good therapy. My mother, a quiet Mancunian Methodist had NO idea how it worked nor what to do about it. I would definitely never marry a Celt. I don't trust the Scots, dislike the Poms - and as for the Irish, well, they love a fight. Still going with the therapy!
One theory, maybe, is cells are basically a defeated people (way back in time), hence the grudge. Defeated because they were all separate clans and tribes, never became one like the poms and this was their downfall. Festers.
Thanks for the comment and perspective, Jane. Barry
Hi Barry, My family background is heavy on the Celtic side. Apart from my Chinese DNA and a lot of English I have Welsh on my mother's side and Irish on both sides.
The only hint of trouble from any of my Celtic ancestors is my maternal Irish 4x great-grandfather was sent to Australia as a convict "For the term of his natural life" for coining ie counterfeiting. One of his Australian-born sons was a complete loser and a career criminal who spent years in and out of gaol for horse theft, robbery and basically being useless. That's it.
Dad's Irish side were normal people.
The tone here was different and the Irish didn't congregate en masse in remote hamlets as a lot were convicts and once freed lived close to where they'd been assigned.
Living in extended family groups and a bit of inbreeding might have something to do with the high crime rates in Appalachian communities, at least in the past.
Inbreeding? Where did you get that idea? Movies? Does inbreeding cause violence? There are many historic events in the past that preserved many old world ways in Appalachia that may not be seen in Canada or Australia.
Get over yourself, if you were half as smart as you think why watch this mans videos. That region of the world built the one you live in who fought the wars created the modern world? Sure wasnt people like you, it was the people of the appalachians
My family have been in Western North Carolina for many generations and I admit my family lineage looks more like a kudzu vine than a tree, but I prefer to agree with a cousin who says "We're not inbred, we're thoroughbred!"
Over half my blood is Scots Irish. I am quick to anger and love my booze